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In case there was any doubt left that the "pro-life" agenda isn't just about restricting abortion, doubt no more:
When asked whether Texas's anti-family planning efforts were "a war on birth control," [Texas Rep. Wayne] Christian replied, "Well of course this is a war on birth control and abortions and everything."

it's been obvious for a long time that the "pro-life" agenda is about much more than just restricting abortion. Sure, that's a big part of it, which is why, this year alone, we've seen more than 1,000 bills introduced in legislatures around the country to do just that.

But it's not just about abortion. Oh no. It's also about contraception. It's also about health care for women—and their children. It's also about balancing budgets on the backs of low-income families.

Birth control and abortions and everything:

Texas’ six-year-old Alternatives to Abortion program has consistently received increases in state funding, while organizations that provide reproductive-health and family-planning services for the uninsured has steadily decreased. This year, the state Legislature did more than cut family-planning funding, however. It also cut billions of dollars from social-service programs that crisis pregnancy centers and maternity houses refer to under the directive of Alternatives to Abortion.

You know what that means? That means that when a poor woman who is considering an abortion finds herself at one of these state-funded "crisis" centers, worrying about whether she can afford to support a child, she's told not to worry because there are great social services programs that can help her.

Except that these are the very programs that "pro-lifers" like Rep. Christian and Gov. Rick Perry are all too eager to cut. In tough economic times, tough choices must be made. And people like Christian and Perry have chosen to fund bogus pregnancy centers rather than fund the services that actually help women and children. Services, by the way, that have nothing to do with abortion:

The services — nutritional supplements through the Women, Infants, Children program (WIC); free medical care through Medicaid; children’s health insurance through the Children’s Health Insurance Program (CHIP); and cash assistance through the Temporary Assistance to Need Families (TANF) program – benefit Texans in need.

Children's health care. Food. Cash assistance to pay for such luxuries as, say, rent. These are the services that are deemed too expensive, and too unnecessary, to fund. If a mother doesn't have enough money to feed her children, well, too bad. Maybe she can stop by one of those state-funded crisis centers and get a pep talk.

Yes, this is a war. Of course this is a war. And it's not just about abortion. Or contraception. Or family planning education.

It's a war on women. A war on children. A war on health care. A war in which one side is perfectly willing to see people—even the children they claim to love—suffer. A war in which the rhetoric of valuing life is trumped by the reality of funding religious propaganda. A war that drives an ever-widening divide between the haves and the have-nots.

Rep. Christian might be a rancid, hateful individual. But he wasn't lying.

"Well of course this is a war on birth control and abortions and everything."

________

This week's good, bad and ugly below the fold.    

  • Oh, for god's sake:
    In response to his recent suspension, Priests for Life leader Frank Pavone floated the possibility of starting a “religious order” for “religious and lay people who feel called to give their whole lives to the pro-life cause.”

    Isn't it touching that a man of God would feel compelled to devote his entire life to something as noble and righteous as terrorizing doctors and their patients? 'Cause that's what Jesus was all about.

  • One more thing about this man of God:
    The recently suspended leader of the anti-abortion group Priests for Life, Frank Pavone, compared supporting abortion rights to supporting terrorism in a blog post published yesterday.

    Yeah. It's the people who support women's equality and reproductive justice who are the terrorists, right? Not the the movement that engages in arson, bomb threats, bombs, butyric acid attacks, stalking, stabbing, kidnapping, death threats, and, oh yeah, murder. When you think about it, it's pretty damn clear who the terrorists are.

  • This is just fucking creepy:
    An anti-abortion rights campaign called “Voices From the Womb” will perform live ultrasounds on pregnant women on Capitol Hill as part of the launch of a national campaign in October.

    And of course, they're doing this out of concern for the children, right?
    The Federal Food and Drug Administration has warned women against undergoing unnecessary ultrasound procedures. Because the long-term effects of repeated ultrasound exposures on a fetus is not fully known, the FDA has warned that it is best to not have one unless it is medically necessary.

    Ohhhhh. So really, it's all about protecting the fetus—unless the fetus makes for a convenient political prop. Then it's fuck the fetus.
  • The New York Times concern trolls about why being single is a fate worse than death. Again:
    Here’s a September celebration you probably didn’t know about: It’s National Single and Unmarried Americans Week.

    But maybe celebration isn’t the right word. Social scientists and researchers say the plight of the American single person is cause for growing concern.


    I'm convinced there's a quota at the Times. Must have at least one story a week advising single people (especially women) that they'd better hurry up and get married ... or else.
  • Why is nostalgic sexism must-see TV?
    What’s both depressing and powerfully nostalgic about these shows is not necessarily that sexism was so virulent -- though that’s certainly upsetting -- but that we failed to capitalize on the nascent momentum that all of these shows explore. Some of those failures, like the inability to pass the Equal Rights Amendment, are a testament to the persistence of sexism in American society. And some of them are the result of fighting with ghosts. Should women and men be represented exactly equally in all industries? Are we really going to tell women that it’s wrong to take time out of the workforce to raise their children? Shows like "Mad Men," "The Hour," "The Playboy Club" and "Pan Am" resonate with us not because we want to return to the bad old days, but because we wish we had a clearer path toward a better future.
  • The World Bank reports that "women represent 40% of the world’s labor force but hold just 1% of the world’s wealth."
  • Ohio is trying to be the most anti-choice state in the country:
    Yesterday, hundreds of people rallied at the Columbus, Ohio, statehouse in support of the so-called "Heartbeat Bill," the pending legislation that could crown Ohio as home of the strictest abortion law in the country. The law would, except in cases of extreme medical emergency, make it illegal to terminate a pregnancy once a fetal heartbeat can be detected, i.e., as early as six weeks after conception (i.e., probably before you've realized you're pregnant). It's so strict that even Ohio Right to Life isn't supporting it, saying there's no way it's going to hold up in court, because it's totally unconstitutional.
  • But Nevada isn't far behind. Forced birthers there are still trying to ban abortion completely:
    The petition would prohibit “the intentional taking of a prenatal person’s life” and defines a prenatal person as “every human being at all stages of biological development before birth.”

    The petition is similar to a failed 2010 petition pushed by the Personhood USA group, which is pursuing anti-abortion laws across the country. That petition was rejected by Carson District Court Judge James Russell, who found the language too vague to be clear to voters.

    And yes, in case you were wondering, Nevada is a death penalty state. But don't worry—it's not like these forced birthers are trying to outlaw the "intentional taking" of all life. Just the prenatal kind.

  • Let's end on a slightly better note. The Washington Post editorial board again goes after the forced birthers in Virginia:
    IT’S ALREADY HARD to get an abortion in Virginia, and it’s about to get much harder.

    The reason is a new set of regulations — absurdly onerous and utterly unnecessary — pushed by conservative ideologues in Richmond and adopted by the state Board of Health, which is dominated by appointees of Gov. Robert F. McDonnell (R). The regulations, which go into effect Jan. 1, are likely to result in the closure of many or most of Virginia’s 23 abortion clinics, which accounted for all but a few hundred of the 26,000 procedures performed in the state last year. [...]

    The main victims of choking off the availability of abortions will be poor African Americans and Hispanics, who account for a majority of women who undergo abortions nationwide. In Virginia, they are concentrated in Northern Virginia, Hampton Roads and Richmond.

    Already, it was hard for many women to find a clinic (or the rare hospital provider) to get an abortion in the commonwealth. The state has just 38 providers, down from 46 in 2005, and just eight of the state’s 135 localities have any provider.

    The new regulatory regime provides antiabortion activists a shameful victory and an end run around a procedure deemed a constitutional right under the law of the land.

    Amen.

Originally posted to Daily Kos on Sat Sep 24, 2011 at 06:00 PM PDT.

Also republished by Abortion.

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Comment Preferences

  •  thanks -- great piece on Rachel (24+ / 0-)

    about the landlord who is fighting back against the pro-"lifers" who picketed at his daughters" middle school-- yes just when you think they can't get any scummier.

    He has started an organization called VOChoice.org..from their site:  

    "We use email, telephone and social media in peaceful, person-to-person counter-protests, against groups that target abortion facilities, providers and patients, as well as their families and communities. We don’t question anyone’s right to express opinions and ideals; we challenge their bullying tactics and their contempt."

    Good/no great/on him...

  •  If the clinic-picketers got their way.... (19+ / 0-)

    ...and abortion was suddenly rendered illegal, do you think they'd go away and leave us alone?  Of course not, they'd take the weekend off and be back on Monday morning with new signs picketing drug stores that sell genocidal birth-control pills...

    "Ronald Reagan is DEAD! His policies live on but we're doing something about THAT!"

    by leftykook on Sat Sep 24, 2011 at 06:13:39 PM PDT

  •  what? no (9+ / 0-)

    good news?  2012 and the throwing of hundreds of Republicans out of state offices can't come soon enough.

    "Overgrown, stuck-up goat," the cat muttered.

    by GenuineRisk on Sat Sep 24, 2011 at 06:14:46 PM PDT

    •  I tried, I swear I did. (13+ / 0-)

      Sometimes, there just isn't any good news for the week.

      •  How true, I sometimes look to music from the (4+ / 0-)

        past.  I refuse to sit down, shut up, or accept the future dictated by my overlords.

        If you can reference other music of the times, please don"t consider it ignored.  I'm just an old woman reflecting on my time.

        •  More appropriate theme for Young Republicans: (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Ahianne

          It was written for Barry Goldwater but sounds just like Rick Perry:

             
          We're the bright young men, who want to go back to Nineteen-Ten, we're Barry's boys.
          We're the kids with a cause, yes a government like grandmama's, we're Barry's boys.
          We're the new kind of youth at your alma mater,
          Back to silver standards and solid Goldwater
          Back to when the poor were poor and rich were rich
          And you felt so damn secure just knowing which were which.

          We're the kids who agree to be social without security, we're Barry's boys
          'Cause his hat's in the ring where Westbrook Pegler once was king, now he's too left wing
          So if you don't recognize any old Red China, or Canada, or Britain, or South Carolina
          You too can join the crew, Tippecanoe and Nixon too
          Back with Barry, back to “cash and carry”, back with Barry's boys.

          "Why did the chicken cross the road?” “To get from the left to the right.” “Right.”
          "Roses are red, violets are blue, Walter Lippmann's a pinko, too." “You got it, Joe.”
          "A-la-ka-nee, ka-nah, ka-nay, let's investigate the PTA."
          "Barry, Barry, make your bid, I love John Birch, but oh you kid."
          "Mother, mother, wear a grin, and don't complain, or we'll turn you in."
          "Hold the presses, stop the mail, the Pentagon's having a one-cent sale."
          "What's the latest news statistic? Hootenannies are socialistic."
          "Shut the door and lock and latch it, here comes Lizzie with a brand new hatchet"

          We're the kids full of nerve as long as it's conservative, we're Barry's boys
          And we can't comprehend why our parents aren't friendlier to Barry's boys
          Why Dad once crusaded for Sacco/Vanzetti,
          Now all we're doing is doing the same for John Paul Getty
          Our parents emulated Roosevelt and Farley
          But we just want to grow up to be like Ev and Charlie
          No college days with Socrates or Plato, when you're Barry's boys
          Just organize parades for the abolishment of NATO
          And the rest, the entire West
          So let's go back to the days when men were men, and start the First World War all over again
          That's right you tell 'em son: 'Isolationism can be fun!'
          Back with Barry, back to “cash and carry”, back with Barry’s--

          "And remember, 'I’m an American first, and a politician second'. . . Spoken like a true American politician"

          Back with Barry, not with Lyndon, Ike or Harry, back with Barry's boys.

          The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

          by irishwitch on Sat Sep 24, 2011 at 10:01:56 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  The Autobiography of Nicolae Ceausescu (19+ / 0-)

    is a powerful documentary film that profiles one of the world's most virulent opponents of abortion. After he criminalized abortion and created incentives to having large families, the birth rate in Romania exploded, children and their families starved, and the fate of abandoned children in bleak orphanages became an issue of international concern.

    Families who adopted children out of Romania's orphanages following the 1989 revolution and execution of dictator Ceausescu soon discovered the long term psychological effects suffered by unwanted children who had been starved and neglected.

  •  The question is, do we accept the challenge? (14+ / 0-)

    I don't live in that godforsaken place called Texas but war is war.  Will we accept this challenge or just say "that's their problem, if they don't like it then vote them out."  Sorry, this sort of thuggery is not acceptable in a supposedly civilized nation.  What ever happened to equal protection under the law?  Only women are directly impacted by this bullshit but all of us pay a price.  What are the alternatives?

    “The greatest tragedy in mankind's entire history may be the hijacking of morality by religion.” Arthur C. Clarke

    by spritegeezer on Sat Sep 24, 2011 at 06:15:12 PM PDT

  •  Of course if you get pregnant and aren't married/ (11+ / 0-)

    financially secure you (and your child) should suffer. - My translation.

    The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy;the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness

    by CTMET on Sat Sep 24, 2011 at 06:15:53 PM PDT

  •  Hang in there sister, (9+ / 0-)

    The League of Women Voters is proof that we can affect positive change.  I cannot believe that the mode of humanity is sociopathy.  The more these monsters feel they've gained advantage, the more they trumpet their madness.  The backlash is here.

  •  quiverfull (6+ / 0-)

    this seems to be just one part of the conservative white christians' last ditch effort to stop the inevitable "browning of America" and thus loss of white majority status that is predicted to occur in the next, what, 20-30 years... the tide is already turning against them though..

    •  Yeah, but.... (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      alizard, irishwitch, Ahianne

      it seems that abortion restrictions affect people of color at a far higher rate than whites. Aren't they all but guaranteeing a hike in minority populations? I mean, it's not like they are pairing restriction of access to abortion with increased access to SexEd and contraception. Unless they really do just want them to starve.... (and I wish I didn't find that quite so easy to imagine...)

    •  I'm 51, didn't have kids. Lots of us this age did (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Sue B, irishwitch, KibbutzAmiad, Ahianne

      not. I've felt since the late 80's/early 90's that a lot of this abortion rhetoric was actually b'coz lots of folks were freaking out that not "enough" white babies were being born. That qiverfull sheeite kind of puts the icing on the cake for me.

      Wolverines and Badgers and Buckeyes - Oh My! Be Afraid Kochroaches. Be very afraid.

      by mrsgoo on Sat Sep 24, 2011 at 08:35:09 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  National War By Both Fundamentalists And RW (16+ / 0-)

    Catholics & some Catholic institutions.

    Both are 100.00% opposed to abortion and birth control. That's a lot of muscle.

    And yes it has nothing to do with right to life of the fetus, because they won't fight for maternal health care, safe food and water or the many other benefits to pregnant women that would improve the failure to thrive rate.

    The sole thing they're interested in is sex control.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Sat Sep 24, 2011 at 06:36:52 PM PDT

    •  Typical Fundie/RW reasoning... (11+ / 0-)

      Cut off access to abortion and birth control and that, by golly, will stop all that outside-of-marriage sex stuff.

      I used to post on the local RW newspaper's comments board as one of the very few liberals.  In short order, I was singled out by one of the most ignorant and hateful Baggers.  I stuck with it for months until he made a comment that all those "crack whores" (no, it was not censored) on welfare should be required to be sterilized after two kids.

      He was adamantly anti-abortion and birth control, yet had concluded that a mandated invasive surgical procedure for women was an acceptable solution.

      The kinds of mental gymnastics that these Fundie/RWers have to perform over these issues has led to some of the most draconian legislation in recent history.

      May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house. George Carlin

      by msmacgyver on Sat Sep 24, 2011 at 07:37:01 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Gooserock, You're Right On... (5+ / 0-)

      ...but it's worse in some ways. Rank hypocrisy pervades the ranks of opponents of abortion and birth control. 98% of American women use birth control—pills, condoms, patches, etc.—during their fertile years, which means that the vast majority of Catholic and fundamentalist women have used birth control. But, of course, their use is alway moral;  it's those other slutty women whose use is not.

      As for Rep. Wayne Christian, his real aim is, as has been often pointed out by others, to deny women control of their own bodies. If a woman cannot control her fertility, then men can control her. That's what it's all about.

      I've escorted at a PP clinic on abortion days for eight years. A shout to male companions I hear every day is "Go in there [the clinic] and take your woman out!" Nothing is more chilling to my ears, and I'm male, than to hear those misogynistic words.

      •  A long time ago in a place far away. There was a (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        alizard, irishwitch, KibbutzAmiad, Ahianne

        gal that got pregnant. Her boyfriend took her to the clinic. There were the protesters with the "photos". The boyfriend was into horror flicks and what not. While he waited, he took great interest in their photos, he discussed with them at length their photos until they became so grossed out they left. heehee!

        Wolverines and Badgers and Buckeyes - Oh My! Be Afraid Kochroaches. Be very afraid.

        by mrsgoo on Sat Sep 24, 2011 at 08:42:52 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  A lot of Catholics are pro-choice. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Ahianne

      SOemthing like 70% of catholci women preer their local hospital to do abortions--in case, for isntance, they're bleeding out and the Catholic hopsital decides to wait and save the fetus inst4ead of them.

      The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

      by irishwitch on Sat Sep 24, 2011 at 10:04:56 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  the exc director of NARAL is a Catholic (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        irishwitch

        The majority of Catholics, or maybe I should say former Catholics, are pro-choice. Most Catholic women over  60 are pro-choice. In the90s the majority of republicans wee pro-choice. Of course most of them have left the R party. The younger generation needs to get out and fight for the freedoms my generation won for them.

        I was a Catholic. no longer. It was the lack of reproductive choices that made me leave the church. I was an activist for choice for over a decade.

  •  I don't know what to say, so I'm not going (5+ / 0-)

    to say anything...except...

    Wake up JANE!

    Those who lived in Chicago in the mid- to late sixties will know what that means.

    "Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

    by Diana in NoVa on Sat Sep 24, 2011 at 06:45:24 PM PDT

  •  My head hurts (7+ / 0-)

    why does it seem as late as all we liberal and progressives are doing of late is trying to stop the dying of the light, from every corner.

    I know, I know

    Bumper sticker seen on I-95; "Stop Socialism" my response: "Don't like socialism? GET OFF the Interstate highway!"

    by Clytemnestra on Sat Sep 24, 2011 at 06:48:31 PM PDT

  •  How is it possible (9+ / 0-)

    to complain about food stamp programs in one breath, and support barriers to family planning services in the next?

    Moral superiority.  Thank you, Jesus!

    •  Cross your legs and think od Jesus is their (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      6ZONite, Pandoras Box

      solution.

      The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

      by irishwitch on Sat Sep 24, 2011 at 10:06:46 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Exactly. First they encourage them ... (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      6ZONite, Calamity Jean, Pandoras Box

      ... to have their children, saying that there are lots of social services out there to help them afterward ...

      Children's health care. Food. Cash assistance to pay for such luxuries as, say, rent. These are the services that are deemed too expensive, and too unnecessary, to fund. If a mother doesn't have enough money to feed her children, well, too bad. Maybe she can stop by one of those state-funded crisis centers and get a pep talk.

      ... but once the women actually start using those services, the same people who were before telling them to use them suddenly turn around accuse the women of being lazy "welfare queens" who keep having children simply to sponge off the government.

  •  Kaili, in all fairness, there are men who are (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    irishwitch

    better parents than those who carry the fetus to full term.  

    I know, this is a betrayal of women in human evolution.  Or, maybe not, we adapt, or we fall into extinction?

  •  Griswold v Connecticut, Roe v Wade are all on the (11+ / 0-)

    radar of the religious right and their fanatical following. After that it will be women's property rights and the vote, these people will not be happy until they have moved the culture back to the "Bronze Age" patriarchies of the Old Testament. They aren't trying to move America back to the "Gilded Age" they are trying to move the world back to the 4th century BCE. Trying people for witchcraft and stoning in the village square are their next moves, perhaps even indentured servitude, America in the 21st century being held back by beliefs supposedly found wanting in the 18th, it is incredible.

    "Intelligence is quickness in seeing things as they are..." George Santayana

    by KJG52 on Sat Sep 24, 2011 at 06:54:42 PM PDT

  •  tv (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Ahianne

    the "must-see TV" link doesn't work.

    but I've seen enough to know I disagree with the reviewer's premise.

    Shows like "Mad Men," "The Hour," "The Playboy Club" and "Pan Am" resonate with us not because we want to return to the bad old days, but because we wish we had a clearer path toward a better future.

    That's overanalyzing it.
    Mad Men resonates because it's well written, well acted, and is incredibly careful of period detail. The attempts by others to reproduce this success are likely to have less of all those things. This is because of how the TV business works, not any wishes of the audience.

    "Great is the guilt of an unnecessary war" - John Adams

    by esquimaux on Sat Sep 24, 2011 at 06:57:08 PM PDT

  •  like to see an ad of famous who've used PPrnthood (9+ / 0-)

    I'd like to see an ad, like McDonalds did a few years ago that showed all the famous people who'd once worked there.

    But it would be famous people who have consulted with Planned Parenthood sometime in their lives. There would be thousands. Hundreds of thousands.

  •  This is about home-grown Sharia law (11+ / 0-)

    The American anti-sex, anti-woman league in all its unholy guises still think Eve got off too lightly for tempting Adam in the Garden of Eden.

    It's hard to know how many politicians sincerely believe this stuff or are just sucking up to a fanatic political base for votes. We've seen plenty of evidence things are different when it comes to their own personal morality. What they truly believe doesn't matter though - how they act does.

    As for the shamans posing as spiritual advisors, sanctimony is too nice a phrase for them. Tin-pot gods would be closer to the truth; their absolute certainty of their moral virtue is the same as has driven every religious conflict since humankind first came up with the idea of divine beings that had to be appeased by sacrifice. Always someone else's sacrifice.

    Here's how to make their heads explode - ask them why they want to impose Sharia law on the U.S. Ask them why they are trying so hard to be the American Taliban. Seriously - Markos got their number and it's time to start throwing it in their self-righteous faces. Because they're only this far from public stonings and burnings as it is.

    "No special skill, no standard attitude, no technology, and no organization - no matter how valuable - can safely replace thought itself."

    by xaxnar on Sat Sep 24, 2011 at 07:07:16 PM PDT

  •  Of course it's a war, and if one side can (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    6ZONite, irishwitch

    convince its opponents to not fight back, well, that one side is going to make some pretty big gains.

    -- We are just regular people informed on issues

    by mike101 on Sat Sep 24, 2011 at 07:31:36 PM PDT

  •  Can we now now argue that nihilistic (7+ / 0-)

    Republicans intend to deliberately destroy the world?

    Well of course this is a war on ... everything.

    --Miscellaneous GOP Congressman

  •  If you are truly "terrorized..." (0+ / 0-)
    Isn't it touching that a man of God would feel compelled to devote his entire life to something as noble and righteous as terrorizing doctors and their patients?

    ...by people praying and handing out literature to pedestrians outside your clinic (however misguided you may believe their reason for doing so), then psychiatric counselling and lorazepam may be for you.

    •  Obviously YOU have never had to escort a (9+ / 0-)

      rape victim past those lovely praying people--who seldom confine themselves to "Hail Marys" but shriek like banshees "Babykiller! Nazi!"  I have had that experience. They're not pleasant people. They're deranged and threatening.

      One of my friends had an abortion while in college.  One insane woman  flung herself in front of the car after she came out, screaming "Repent, you slut! You killed your baby, and you're going to hell!" "  My firend told her politely that if she didn't move, she was gonna just drive over her. She gunned her engine. The banshee (and it's an insult to banshees) moved her fat ass pretty damned fast--she could dish out threats but she couldn't take them.

      The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

      by irishwitch on Sat Sep 24, 2011 at 10:11:46 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Nope. (0+ / 0-)

        I am one of those praying people. I personally never interact with anybody near the clinic (my goal is to pray and be seen objecting to what is occurring, not to argue), but none of my friends have ever so much as raised their voice with anybody who talked to them. (Yeah, they come up and talk to us.) Some are disdainful or angry, others curious, a few genuinely inspired to rethink the issue, but our demeanour is always calm, collected and respectful.

        And we have just as much right not to be grouped with the sort of un-prayerful belligerents you mention as sincere Muslims have not to grouped with Al-Qaeda.

        •  Then your frioends are better behaved than (3+ / 0-)

          most.  Because I did this often in a very Catholic city, and I can tell you that 9 times out of ten, they were belligerent and obnoxious and hate-filled. They were belligerent and obnoxious in Pensacola, FL when I h ad to drive by a clinic 4 times a day, and in Jacksonville FL.

          I wish they'd keep you 100 feet away from a clinic entrance. Rape victims--ANY woman seeking healthcare--shouldn't have to endure your self-righteous, holier-than-thou prayers.

          The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

          by irishwitch on Sun Sep 25, 2011 at 10:39:08 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Let me give you a clue: (0+ / 0-)

            People who claim to be in favour of free speech except when the message is "obnoxious" to them, aren't really in favour of free speech. They're just in favour of their speech and the speech of those who agree with them. You are no liberal, and certainly no democrat if you really want to suppress the most fundamental political right in a democracy.

            I'll throw in a second clue for free: if, when you see people praying for you, you feel that their prayers are self-righteous and "holier-than-thou," it is your conscience that needs to be examined, and not theirs, because that is the classic sign of a conscience deeply repressed trying desperately to be heard.

        •  Why do you feel the need to prat outside clinics? (3+ / 0-)

          You could pray at home or in your chuches. No  the real goal of the ANTIS is to terrorize and shame women, and try to make them fell bad. However the ANTIs outside clinics who are the real shameful people. Why is it any of your business if a women you do not even know gets an abortion? Why d do you feel a fetus is more important than a woman's life and well being? If you do not like abortion do not have one. Otherwise it is really none of your business.

          No one is encouraging or dragging women kicking and screaming to get abortions. Today women can go to PP get counseling, and make informed choices.

          You know Pro-choicers have been nice for to long. Maybe it is time to do what the ANTIS have been doing for decades.... follow the lifers, take down their license numbers, follow them to their homed, stalk them and their families. Make their names and addresses public.
          But not KILL like the lifers do!

          •  I have asked him the same thing (0+ / 0-)

            I expect no answer from him other than insults...just who he is, I guess.

            •  Bill DOnahue Catholic conservative (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Pandoras Box

              who thinks women provoke rape and women who have sex outside marriage are sluts, basically. Against birth control because it's unnatural and because nature expects women to die at 40 exhausted from 20 pregnancies. He feels all about punishing the women.

              The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

              by irishwitch on Sun Sep 25, 2011 at 09:25:36 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I do not think women provoke rape. (0+ / 1-)
                Recommended by:
                Hidden by:
                Pandoras Box

                You are an repulsive liar.

                •  HRed for personal insult (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  irishwitch

                  expected nothing more from you tho, I must say

                •  I believe you're the one who told me (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Pandoras Box

                  that you told your au pairs that there were certain places women must not go and they should dress conservatively. If you aren't that person, I apologize.

                  You DID tell me that birth control was unnatural and women didn't have a right not tohave babies (lots of them) if they chose to have sex.

                  The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

                  by irishwitch on Mon Sep 26, 2011 at 08:55:35 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  I was wrong. That was one (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Pandoras Box

                  misogynistic remark you didn't make. It was Wham Bam. So I apologize.

                  But your BS that it is "natural" for women to get pregnant when they have sex, so birth control is wrong is just BS. Because it is also natural to lose your teeth by age 40 without modern dentistry--but I presume you go to the dentist? It is unnatural for men to lose their ability to have an erection if they lose their prostate--but I bet you'd use Viagra or Cialis if you had that condition?  It's natural to be dead by 40 from disease or infection--but I bet you get tetanus shots  and take antibiotics? It's natural for a lot of infants to die shortly after they are born from health issues or infections--but I bet if your child was born like my nephew with a hole in his heart, you'd want him to have surgery to fic it so he could live a normal life?

                  Oddly enough, with you and the Catholic church,  "unnatural" only seems to apply  when women and ex are involved, nothing else.

                  So, not guilty of thinking women cause their rapes--but still a misogynist along with the Pope in too many ways to count.

                  The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

                  by irishwitch on Mon Sep 26, 2011 at 10:49:36 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  This is classic. (0+ / 0-)

                    This is your mind on anti-life ideology:

                    But your BS that it is "natural" for women to get pregnant when they have sex...

                    Do you know how sex works? Do you need your parents to go over the birds and the bees with you just one more time? If you seriously think that it is not natural for women to become pregnant when they have sex, then you should seriously reconsider grade school anatomy and biology, or maybe just read up a bit.

                    •  You are, quite simply, the most (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Pandoras Box

                      pompous twit I've ever had the misfortune to read.  In modern times there are way to avoid it--every bit as natural as Viagra and tetanus shots and antibiotics and dentistry. Until you renounce those "unnatural" processes, don't even think about tellign women they must forego birth control.

                      It was natural in the 19th century--but even then, men and women used condoms.

                      I applogized. Never again.

                      The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

                      by irishwitch on Mon Sep 26, 2011 at 04:21:32 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  It is natural. (0+ / 0-)

                        That's why it's called artificial birth control.

                        At any rate, let me handle this ridiculousness about the unnaturalness of modern medicine point you are trying so hard to make:

                        There is an obvious and tremendous difference between medicine, which is meant to remedy the accidental injuries or infections of the human body, and contraception, which is designed to frustrate an act freely undertaken. In order words, yes, if I need it, I go get a tetanus shot. But I also don't go around deliberately cutting myself on rusty metal. And if my body gets an infection, I take antibiotics, but I also don't play with smallpox or deliberately spend more time than absolutely necessary around sick people.

                        Likewise, the existence of artificial birth control does not excuse you from the normal human responsibility that is part and parcel with the decision to have sex.

                •  And you are a repulsive bigot. (0+ / 0-)

                  Women are not breeding slaves. no matter how much you pretend to "love" imaginary "babies".

          •  Here's why: (0+ / 0-)

            For the same reason that those who prayed for Troy Davis felt the need to do so outside the prison where he was to be executed... Think about that for a while and maybe the reason will come to you.

            No one is encouraging or dragging women kicking and screaming to get abortions.

            That "excuse" (not that it is one) went completely out the window when you guys started attacking pregnancy crisis centers. That sort of behaviour is essentially tantamount to enticing women to abort, so yes, you're about a half step away from forcing women to have abortions. China does it, and with some many like you arguing for similar "population control" here in the U.S., I doubt it will be long before mandatory abortion becomes a mainstream political position.

        •  let's get to the heart of the issue, adeodatus (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          irishwitch

          what is it you are hoping for?

          why do you think that women should have no choice?

          why isn't it enough that YOU don't have to have an abortion...why must you decide that NO ONE ELSE should have one either?

          •  I'm happy to get to the heart of the issue. (0+ / 0-)
            why do you think that women should have no choice?

            This is the fallacy of many questions. This question makes sense only if we assume that pregnancy is a spontaneous, random development in the female physiology. I suppose you'd have me answer this question by skipping over the part where a choice was already made. So what you are arguing for, is not choice, but a mulligan, a second choice to reverse the unwanted consequences of the first. Well, that'd be fine with me, except when you want to do that by killing the new human being created in the process. This is the same reason I would oppose irrational and irresponsible behaviour on the part of anybody attempting to escape the consequences of their own actions.

            And honestly, it's not even as if anybody is asking pregnant women to care for the child. All that is asked (and it is truly ridiculous that it even needs to be asked), is that she allow it to live long enough to let somebody else care for it and raise it. Is that really too much to ask?

            why isn't it enough that YOU don't have to have an abortion...why must you decide that NO ONE ELSE should have one either?

            Why isn't it enough that you aren't a murderer? Why must you decide that nobody else can murder either? ... Yeah, that's not a ridiculous question at all. Hopefully you can see now why if we were to adopt your line of reasoning, we'd be unable to justify the existence of any law whatsoever.

            •  so it IS about punishment for you then? (0+ / 0-)

              because many women take precautions and still end up pregnant.  

              and we are human beings...sex is built into our very psyches.  but we have developed medical procedures to help improve our lives.  should we ignore them?

              an unborn fetus cannot have the same rights as the fully formed human being carrying it...just not possible - at least not without removing rights from that fully formed human being.

              YOU don't have to live with the decision of whether or not to have an abortion.  you act as if women shouldn't have the right to decide this for themselves, but only the woman having the abortion (or not) has to live with such a decision...not you.

              as for this:

              All that is asked (and it is truly ridiculous that it even needs to be asked), is that she allow it to live long enough to let somebody else care for it and raise it. Is that really too much to ask?

              women do not owe the use of their bodies to people who want to adopt. period.  you think pregnancy is some kind of picnic?  woefully misinformed if you do.  

              legally, it is only your opinion that an abortion is murder.  an guess what - even OTHER people are entitled to a different opinion.  stunning, i know

              •  Again: (0+ / 0-)

                Nothing you say makes any sense unless we assume that pregnancy occurs spontaneously and not as the result of a free choice to have sex. That choice comes with responsibilities, and yes, this is true even if you attempted to frustrate the procreative potential of the act.

                Sex comes with responsibilities. As long as you are unwilling to hear that, understand that, and accept that, you will be ignorant to what I am trying to explain to you.

                •  and rape which results in pregnancy? (0+ / 0-)
                  •  So you concede that abortion is morally... (0+ / 0-)

                    permissible only in cases of rape now?

                    •  i concede NOTHING to you (0+ / 0-)

                      i am asking you about your repetitive statements that sex is always a free choice

                      which it is not

                      •  Then there is no reason to discuss rape. (0+ / 0-)

                        Admittedly, in cases of rape I would be deprived of the premise that the pregnancy is the result of a free choice. But since my case ultimately rests on the scientifically supported and morally sound premise that the fetus is a human being endowed with an inalienable right to life, it would really be up to you to show why a baby conceived by rape is somehow less worthy of that right to life than a baby conceived with the consent of the mother. Good luck with that...

                        But that is, as you just admitted, not your assertion. You support an unfettered right to abortion, not only in cases of rape but for any reason whatsoever. And so I am still able to argue against you using the premise that sex is, normally and in all but a very small minority of cases, a free choice. If you wish to justify abortion by a mother who wasn't raped, as you do, you have to contend with the freedom of that choice and the marked depravity of allowing people to abandon the responsibilities that come with it.

            •  WOMEN ARE NOT BREEDING SLAVES. (0+ / 0-)

              My body is not available for use by anyone but ME.

              My body, MY CHOICE.

              Don't like it, don't have an abortion.  Your misogyny ends where MY RIGHTS begin.

              Women are not breeding slaves.

              Repeat until you get it through your sicko bigot brain.

      •  there was an protestor in our area who wore a (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        irishwitch, Pandoras Box

        priest's collar but was not even in the clergy. Another protestor used to sit in a wheel chair with her rosary be and trip and hit women going into clinics with a cane. Then after the protests she would get out of her chair and walk to her CA.

        •  adeodatus will not acknowledge that (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          historys mysteries, Pandoras Box

          their are anti-choice folks who behave this way.

          Just like he won't acknowledge that a lot of rapes happen in places women can't avoid (70% occur int he victim's home, the home of a friend or relative, within one miles from her home, at school or place of employment) and that how they are dressed  doesn't matter. He'd rather blame the victim and  harass women entering clinics--most of whom aren't having abortions but simply getting birth control (he's against that too as unnatural and not a right because women have no rights over their bodies at all) or gynie exams.

          The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

          by irishwitch on Sun Sep 25, 2011 at 03:49:18 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Our resident pro-life Catholic shows up. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      adeodatus, Pandoras Box

      The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

      by irishwitch on Sat Sep 24, 2011 at 10:19:23 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  When you're clueless, stop typing. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Pandoras Box

      You are clueless if you actually think that's all these psychotic bigots do.

      Stop talking, as it's clear you have no clue what you're talking about.

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