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Recently I was discussing the issue of antibiotics in the environment with someone on this site who I rather enjoy - many of my interactions here are, um, unpleasant and frankly depressing to the point of hopelessness - about the issue of the ubiquity of antibiotic use.    We were discussing the issue of whether the age of antibiotics is likely to be short lived, owing to the development of resistance, by evolutionary mechanisms.   My friend, who, however we might differ on particular, joins me in deploring the rise in popular contempt for science, suggested that antibiotic resistance is an ancient matter, and that modern technology will allow humanity to keep ahead in the biochemical race to find new antibiotics as old ones become useless.   I on the other hand am not so sanguine on that topic.    

For the record, my grandmother died as a relatively young woman around the time of the Second World War from a bacterial infection that would have easily been cured just a few years after her death by an antibiotic prescription.    She left 10 children and a husband.   One of those children was my mother.

I won't live to see this whole game played out, but, I do think that there is cause for concern on this score, the long term viability of the "age of antibiotics."

Today I was reading the ASAP sections of one of my favorite journals, Environmental Science and Technology a publication of the American Chemical Society and came across a paper that relates to this topic.     The paper I will discuss tonight in this brief diary is entitled,  Toxicity and Reductions in Intracellular Calcium Levels Following Uptake of a Tetracycline Antibiotic in Arabidopsis

Right now in this country, according to the text, 27.85 million pounds (about 13,000 metric tons) of the antibiotics are sold each each year.   Of this, about 38% is used in is in the general class of tetracyclines, and the majority of this 38% is used in animal feed.

Tetracyclines, it turns out, are highly stable in the environment, and degrade rather slowly, and as a result, they tend to accumulate in some media.    Agricultural fields that have been fertilized with animal manure for instance have show concentrations as high as 20 mg/kg in the soils of chlortetracycline.    

The authors cited a recent paper showing that tetracyclines are routinely found in Colorado River water, which of course, supplies the drinking water supplies for much of the American Southwest.   (This is not by the way, meant to imply that there are toxicological implications of these concentrations, but they are routinely detectable.)

The concern of course, is that these low level concentrations can and do lead to resistant species.   For the record there are now strains of things like, say, tuberculosis, for which few - and in some case no - antibiotics can treat.

The authors of the paper I reference here however were not concerned so much with resistant species but rather sought to review a toxicological implication of this widespread accumulation.

Arabidopsis is a flowering plant - native to Europe and Asia - that has a particularly small genome, and - for this reason is often used as a laboratory investigation species, much as the simple organism Drosphilia - the fruit fly - is used to study animal species.

If you have ever had a prescription for tetracycline, you may have been advised not to take it with milk.    The reason for this is that tetracycline strongly interacts with calcium.   Apparently this happens when tetracycline interacts with cells of the Arabidopsis plant.

Some excerpts from the text:

CTC Toxicity in Arabidopsis. For this study plants were
exposed to the highest levels detected in contaminated field soils, 20 mg/kg.7 Treated plants began to show toxicity effects after 34 days of CTC exposure, including stunted growth, reduced leaf expansion, and yellowing. These effects were not observed in control (untreated) plants. Figure 1 (top two panels) shows a comparison of CTC-treated versus untreated plants after 9 days of CTC watering. The CTC-treated Arabidopsis clearly showed toxicity effects (left panel), with reduced overall weights (right panel) when compared to control plants...

...Uptake of TC and CTC from roots into leaves was investigated by analyzing leaf extracts from plants treated with these antibiotics using liquid chromatography/mass spectrometry (LC/MS)...

...Whereas only small differences between treated and untreated Arabidopsis were observed for the representative proteins described above, there were detectable differences in accumulation of the NAD-dependent malic enzyme (NAD-ME). The accumulation of this protein was reduced approximately 2=3 fold (determined using phosphorimager quantification) in the leaves of 9-day treated plants, relative to control plants (Figure 2B, N, middle panel). At the same time, NAD-ME protein levels in roots of CTC-treated plants increased approximately 2 - 3 fold over control plants (Figure 2C, N, middle panel). In contrast, another mitochondrial enzyme, the organelle-encoded CoxII, did not shown any changes in abundance (Figure 2A, Co, bottom panel)...

...Chelation of Intracellular Calcium by CTC. Calcium chelation in plants by TC antibiotics is well-known2325 and calcium signaling affects many aspects of plant evelopment and gene expression, especially those relating to abiotic stress.4146 For this study we made use of transgenic Arabidopsis that constitutively expresses a YC3.6 cameleon protein47 from a CaMV 35-S promoter, to measure FRET in response to CTC exposure

Oh.  Oh.  Transgenic species.   Someone should call the assholes at Greenpeace about this.

The use of these transgenic species did = I'll not bore you with the details - that certain calcium dependent proteins were reduced significantly using tetracycline, and this effect was supported by showing even greater reductions in growth using other calcium chelating agents.

It is known, by the way, that not all species are affected in the same way by tetracyclines.   Some species of corn seem not to be affected while other species, like pinto beans, are affected.

Interesting paper, and I thought in this brief throwaway diary I'd discuss it.    The accumulation of other pharmaceuticals in the environment, by the way, is now well known and this is simply one example of this issue.

Poll

Have you managed to live through the age of antibiotics.

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7%2 votes
25%7 votes
33%9 votes
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11%3 votes

| 27 votes | Vote | Results

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Comment Preferences

  •  Feedlots in which the bacteria can't eat the (8+ / 0-)

    poop because they're all dead, accumulating poop, scary, really scary feedlots where the bacteria couldn't care less about tetracycline,  sewage treatment plants that are sort of like the US Pharmcopeia, modern LC/MS/MS methods becoming so sensitive as to tell me things that I really don't want to know, hidden antibiotics in the water supply, modern hide rates, and pure, unadulterated, pharmacologically benign troll rates all go here.

    •  what's up with the poop.... (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      northsylvania, Wee Mama, DawnN

      ... I think isn't that bacteria are unable to process it due to antibiotics in the poop, but that industrial agriculture produces such enormous quantities of poop that there is not enough time to allow the normal processes to work on it.  

      Also probably there are issues of aerobic vs. anaerobic processes.  A sufficiently large pile of shit can go anaerobic, which among other things results in ferociously foul smells and the proliferation of bacteria that produce toxic byproducts harmful to humans and other animals.  

      The antibiotics in the poop do however contribute to antibiotic resistance of whatever bacteria are trying to break down the poop.  

      "Minus one vote for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

      by G2geek on Sun Oct 02, 2011 at 11:03:37 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I was given a bottle of anti to take , (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Bob Love

    when I went back the doctor asked in a way that made it clear that he did not think I lived up to my end of the deal .
    I opened up my notebook to show him the entries of date / times .
    He had nothing to say .
    I still have the note book with the data , what I took and when .

    "Drop the name-calling." Meteor Blades 2/4/11

    by indycam on Sun Oct 02, 2011 at 08:40:27 PM PDT

  •  Go for it ! (0+ / 0-)
    Someone should call the assholes at Greenpeace about this
    I double dog dare you !!!
    Call Phil Radford II
    http://www.dailykos.com/...

    "Drop the name-calling." Meteor Blades 2/4/11

    by indycam on Sun Oct 02, 2011 at 08:45:07 PM PDT

    •  Apparently you seem to think that I enjoy... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Mogolori, Deward Hastings

      ...speaking with scientifically illiterate assholes.

      I don't.  

      Accordingly, this conversation is concluded.  

      •  I'd bet you belong to Mensa. eom (0+ / 0-)
      •  Are you calling Phil Radford II (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        cany

        a "scientifically illiterate asshole" ?
        An attack on another site user ?
        Good luck with that !

        "Drop the name-calling." Meteor Blades 2/4/11

        by indycam on Sun Oct 02, 2011 at 09:50:45 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Indycam HR abuse in personal arguement. (0+ / 0-)

        NNadir just said that he has no desire to have a conversation with someone who thinks he enjoys speaking with scientifically illiterate assholes.

        And he's refusing to take the bait.  

        What part of that is HR-able?  

        None.

        However, Indycam HR-ing NNadir for a comment in a personal arguement is a clear TOS violation last time I checked.  

        "Minus one vote for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

        by G2geek on Sun Oct 02, 2011 at 10:34:28 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  First time I read it (0+ / 0-)

          it came off as an insult of another site member , now that I have read it again it looks like he was insulting me . I've removed the Hide Rate .
          And what do you have to say about the upraters of that insult ?

          "Drop the name-calling." Meteor Blades 2/4/11

          by indycam on Mon Oct 03, 2011 at 10:33:50 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  kudos for not taking the bait. (0+ / 0-)

        When someone's trying to bait you, ignoring them should make them stop, but there are also those who just try harder and harder and harder to bait you.   Fortunately, it takes more effort to try harder and harder to bait someone, than it does for someone to ignore the added attempts at baiting.  

        "Minus one vote for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

        by G2geek on Sun Oct 02, 2011 at 11:06:10 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  that's trolling, plain and simple. (0+ / 0-)

      Per your reasoning, attacking any organization of which a member or leader is also on dKos, is off-limits.

      Thus attacking child-molesting priests is a no-no if there is a priest on dKos.  

      Arguably, saying "those assholes in the Republican party" is also a no-no since there are Republicans on dKos!

      And the way you just worded it: "Go for it!" and "I double dog dare you!!!", is baiting, which is trolling for a reaction.  

      "Minus one vote for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

      by G2geek on Sun Oct 02, 2011 at 10:30:03 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  And childish n/t (0+ / 0-)

        Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
        -- Albert Einstein

        by bryfry on Sun Oct 02, 2011 at 10:34:07 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  well look who's there! :-) (0+ / 0-)

          Good to see you again.  

          I'm still wondering whether I should report some apparent rule-breaking behaviors here to admin, or, since my last email to admin got no reply, someone else should do so.  Or perhaps a bunch of us should do so.  

          Main thing is: do not take the bait.   There's plenty of bait around here tonight, from an expected source.   Don't take it.  

          "Minus one vote for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

          by G2geek on Sun Oct 02, 2011 at 11:22:26 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  That's (0+ / 0-)

            up to you if you want to report something. I don't think that I have any useful advice to give you about that. Sorry.

            Don't worry about me. I'm sticking to the last advice that you gave me, as I told you I would. It was good advice. ;-)

            Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
            -- Albert Einstein

            by bryfry on Sun Oct 02, 2011 at 11:27:13 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Although ... (0+ / 0-)

            I will say that HR'ing someone that you're in an argument with (see NNadir's comment above) is a clear violation of site rules. You are correct about that.

            Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
            -- Albert Einstein

            by bryfry on Sun Oct 02, 2011 at 11:29:36 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  yeah i caught that one. (0+ / 0-)

              Someone who is not part of the pro/anti nuke stuff or all the stinkypoo over it in the past, needs to report this to admin.  And the baiting too, which is way over the line.  

              "Minus one vote for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

              by G2geek on Sun Oct 02, 2011 at 11:50:59 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

  •  I would like to suggest that anyone who responds (4+ / 0-)

    in a discussion with the claim that future scientific advances will nullify the consequences of current decisions should be disregarded out of hand.

    Yes, technological advances are amazing and profligate in these times.  But you may as well burn a candle and make a wish if you expect science will save us from disasters that are preventable by current actions.

    Democracy is often an indictment of the voting populace.

    by electricgrendel on Sun Oct 02, 2011 at 08:59:31 PM PDT

  •  There's a reason (6+ / 0-)

    why you are rarely taken seriously -- even if you might know something about science.  Needless to say, you won't ever get it.

    Vi er alle norske " My faith in the Constitution is whole; it is complete; it is total." Barbara Jordan, 1974

    by gchaucer2 on Sun Oct 02, 2011 at 09:01:35 PM PDT

    •  I have 168 followers as of this writing. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      churchylafemme, Deward Hastings, 42

      Maybe you don't take me seriously, but other people - some of whom I might actually take seriously myself, might disagree with you.

      For the record, I am completely unfamiliar with your writings, but you are apparently familiar with mine.  

      No matter.  

      I am not seeking popularity, nor am I trying to be elected to anything, and my points here - to the extent you may or may not understand - is not about being taken seriously by unserious people.

      My single most important issue is climate change and the environment.   Certainly you are not here to tell me that what's written here is serious stuff about this issue, or are you?

      I mean, I read stuff here like how wonderful the Tesla electric car is, and how meaningful it is in the fight against climate change.

      Whatever.

      The fact that "something I might know about science" often leads me to a certain level of cynicism and despair which you may not be able to grasp.   I could have picked lots of topics from my scan of EST titles this afternoon and have had an even more cynical response than what's here in this garbage diary.

      So you don't take me seriously?

      No worries.  

      I don't expect to be taken seriously here, and much of what I read and hear in this space certainly doesn't involve serious responses to serious issues.

      If I took the response in this space to scientific issues seriously, I would be even more seriously disturbed by humanities prospects than I am already, and, um, I'm no longer any kind of optimist, that's for sure.  

      I'm a lifelong Democrat, an Eleanor Roosevelt Democrat, and apologize to no one for it.   I am not at this point in my life going to leave the Democratic Party - or start voting for flakes, or not voting - but what I see in this space often tells me that our party is not the same party with which Glenn Seaborg proudly identified himself, paricularly where scientific issues are concerned.

      Have a great day tomorrow.   It was a real pleasure to chat.

      •  Har! (0+ / 0-)

        I have smarter people on my 10 person cell phone contact list.  You have a great day tomorrow as well -- I'm sure your mirror will confirm everything you want to know.

        Vi er alle norske " My faith in the Constitution is whole; it is complete; it is total." Barbara Jordan, 1974

        by gchaucer2 on Sun Oct 02, 2011 at 09:31:32 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  As you scan the bullet points of some journal list (0+ / 0-)

        please find out which are total bull before placing them here. Your story about feedlots where the manure is so full of antibiotics that it won't degrade is total shit. The way cows get nutrients from grass is by letting trillions of bacteria in special parts of the cow's guts degrade the cellulose and other other wise  cow indigestible things and produce nutrients the cow lives on. The poop has to have a large portion of the bacteria that mutiiplied in the gut.

        Bipartisan analogy: Both musicians and fishermen want more bass.

        by OHdog on Sun Oct 02, 2011 at 09:37:31 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  But in feedlots that doesn't happen so much (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Wee Mama

          the cows are fed a non-natural diet and the gut bacteria that would normally be helpful in digesting grass/hay/etc just get in the way and need to be eliminated (hence the massive use of antibiotics)

          •  Feed lots use/abuse antibiotics but not to get (0+ / 0-)

            rid of gut bacteria. Cows do not have sterile guts in feed lots or anywhere else.

            Bipartisan analogy: Both musicians and fishermen want more bass.

            by OHdog on Mon Oct 03, 2011 at 05:20:50 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Antibiotics change the distribution of species of (0+ / 0-)

              bacteria - otherwise it would be completely counter-intuitive how they could result in faster growth of the treated animals.

              •  But your point is different from original diary (0+ / 0-)

                claim of non-decomposing shit piling up in feed lots.

                Bipartisan analogy: Both musicians and fishermen want more bass.

                by OHdog on Mon Oct 03, 2011 at 09:11:47 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Yes, my point is different than what the (0+ / 0-)

                  original diary said (if it was identical, why bother saying?)

                  More to the point, it addressed what you said about cows eating grass.  In today's "factory farming" feedlots, very little grass is eaten - thus cows need different gut biota and antibiotics help shift the distribution.  Just like what happens inside of you when you take antibiotics . . .

                  •  No. You have bought into the factory farms (0+ / 0-)

                    explanation of antibiotic use to increase "Feed efficacy". This only happens in sick cattle where the use of antibiotics may be justified. I say, may be, because the diseases are partly a consequence of the over-crowding of the animals and the truly unsanitary conditions they are kept in. People who truly care about the abuse of antibiotics in factory farms will not give them that cover of believing antibiotic use means less expensive meat.

                    Bipartisan analogy: Both musicians and fishermen want more bass.

                    by OHdog on Tue Oct 04, 2011 at 04:36:04 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I'm not "buying into" anything (0+ / 0-)

                      just acknowledging a fact.

                      Even the Union of Concerned Scientists (who are strongly against the use of antibiotics in farming, btw, accepts that antibiotics promote "feed efficiency," that is, to increase the animal's weight gain per unit of feed.

                      link

                      Do you have no curiosity at all why such a counterintuitive phenomenon occurs?

                      •  You are misinterpreting this section: (0+ / 0-)
                        Especially troubling is their use not to cure sick animals but to promote "feed efficiency," that is, to increase the animal's weight gain per unit of feed. These drugs are also regularly added to the feed and water of animals that are not sick in order to prevent diseases caused by overcrowded and unsanitary CAFO conditions. These nontherapeutic uses translate into relatively cheap meat prices at the grocery store.
                        They are paraphrasing exactly what I said in the previous comment. The antibiotics keep the cows less sick than they would be otherwise in the crowded, unsanitary conditions they are kept in. If the cows are kept in less crowded and more sanitary conditions the effect of antibiotic feed efficiency disappears. Proof is in the experience in European farming, starting with Danish pig farms and expanding exponentially to cattle operations.

                        Bipartisan analogy: Both musicians and fishermen want more bass.

                        by OHdog on Tue Oct 04, 2011 at 09:46:34 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  OK, I'll take one more shot at this (0+ / 0-)

                          on the off-chance that you're not just being deliberately obtuse to fuck with me.  From Harvard:

                          In the early 1970s, the seemingly banal and nondescript matter of the subtherapeutic use of antibiotics in animal feed ignited a contentious debate in policy circles. For three decades now, this issue has periodically surfaced and resubmerged, each time provoking a heated but ultimately unresolved debate regarding the appropriate FDA regulation of the issue. FDA has on several instances taken initial action to find itself quickly restrained either by Congress or by its own ambiguous feelings on the issue. Today, different branches of the Public Health Service, the CDC and the FDA, hold strongly divergent views on this issue and even the Center for Veterinary Medicine, the Division of the FDA responsible for regulating the manufacture and distribution of animal feed additives, appears to house a range of opinion. See infra pp. 13-20.

                          Subtherapeutic use of antibiotics in animal feed, as opposed to therapeutic or disease-treating use, enhances efficiency of livestock production by promoting growth. Specifically, through an unknown mechanism, an animal on subtherapeutic doses of antibiotics will, on a lesser quantity of feed, gain an equal amount of weight as an untreated animal. Animal Legal Defense Fund Boston, Inc. v. Provimi Veal Corporation, 626 F.Supp. 278, 285-86 (D.Mass. 1986), aff'd without opinion, 802 F.2d 440 (1st Cir. 1987); Telephone Interview with Rich Carnevale, Vice President of Regulatory, Scientific and International Affairs, Animal Health Institute (January 29, 1998); Telephone Interview with Dr. Kathy Hollinger, Epidimiologist, Center for Veterinary Medicine, Food and Drug Administration (January 27, 1998).

                          link

                          In the intervening years, the best hypothesis is that the "unknown mechanism" is by altering gut microbiota away from the now useless bacteria that are no longer needed to digest the no longer eaten grass and hay.

      •  Heh. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Wee Mama, NNadir

        You remind me of a comment that Ben Goldacre made the other day:

        "At academic conferences the Q&A after a postdoc presents his data is often a bloodbath. And nobody minds that, we actively welcome it. It's kind of like a consenting intellectual S&M activity...."

        Some people think discussion is something different than the foundation that you and I have been trained to expect. I think that may be part of our problem here :)

        Doubt is cheap. Finding out is hard. --@Daniel_Loxton

        by mem from somerville on Sun Oct 02, 2011 at 10:14:08 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Mem, can you do us a favor...? (0+ / 0-)

          Indycam's comments above look a hell of a lot like an attempt to bait NNadir.  Indycam's HR of a comment by NNadir also looks like a TOS violation of HR-ing in a personal arguement.  

          What do you think?   Reportable to admin?  Especially considering that Indycam apparently feels free to report substantially smaller things to admin: consistency and all that.

          "Minus one vote for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

          by G2geek on Sun Oct 02, 2011 at 10:38:47 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Oh god (4+ / 0-)

          I started having flashbacks to graduate school, particularly a course, which I took, that was taught by my advisor.

          It was a special topics course, which was offered under several departments (I think that I took it as an Applied Math course) and was rather heavily attended that semester, but being an unconventional course, instead of homework or exams, the grade was based on a presentation given by the student at the end of the course. So for about a month or so, the course consisted each day of two students giving a presentation (each occupying half of the time slot or about 35 minutes) to the rest of the class and the instructor.

          It was like watching lambs being led to the slaughter. The professor, while somehow managing to remain polite, was absolutely brutal in the questions that he asked at the end of each presentation. I would not have been surprised to see one or more of the students break down in tears afterward. The questions continued until the student could no longer answer the questions.

          Nevertheless, in spite of the bloodbath, it was a valuable lesson into how to deal with such situations.

          Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
          -- Albert Einstein

          by bryfry on Sun Oct 02, 2011 at 11:15:16 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Shoot. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Wee Mama, mem from somerville

            That's what grad school is all about. Unless you have one of those classes, you haven't arrived.

            "Bootstraps are a fine invention as long as they are attached to boots." blueoasis

            by northsylvania on Mon Oct 03, 2011 at 12:54:16 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Well (0+ / 0-)

              I agree.  However, it has been my experience to observe that many people are either finishing grad school without such an experience, or didn't learn anything from it.

              I guess that's why, in some fields, they feel that they need to beat it into the heads of the postdocs. The job isn't getting done in grad school.

              Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
              -- Albert Einstein

              by bryfry on Mon Oct 03, 2011 at 11:38:39 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  though, i would partially disagree about Teslas. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        northsylvania, Wee Mama

        Anyone who invests $175K in an electric vehicle, is going to have a significant portion of their personal identity tied up with their ecological stance: so it won't stop with buying a Tesla, but consistency will demand taking other steps as well.  

        That combination puts someone in the position of being a "brand leader" in their peer group, thereby encouraging others to make similar commitments.   And those who can't afford Teslas will do what they can to maintain their social standing in the group.  All of this translates to a high incentive for each individual to spread ecological memes.  

        So, arguably, one Tesla in a peer group, translates to quite a bit of ecological meme-spreading and other actions.  

        (Alternately for some it might translate to "I've done my share, I don't have to do anything else."  But there's no basis to determine this a-priori for all such peer groups.)

        "Minus one vote for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

        by G2geek on Sun Oct 02, 2011 at 11:32:27 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  it's called emotionalism vs. rationalism. (0+ / 0-)

      Rational people don't let their agreement or disagreement with a set of facts & reasoning, become influenced by their emotional responses to emotion-words sprinkled in amidst the facts & reasoning.  

      We are supposed to be the reality-based community, rational and empirical, not getting buttons pressed by emotion-words.

      "Minus one vote for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

      by G2geek on Sun Oct 02, 2011 at 11:27:49 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I do not understand why the tip jar was HRd (4+ / 0-)

    Agree or not w/the diarist, why hr?

    "But much to my surprise when I opened my eyes I was the victim of the great compromise." John Prine

    by high uintas on Sun Oct 02, 2011 at 09:07:33 PM PDT

    •  Maybe because it IS a "garbage diary" - as the (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Lujane, flowerfarmer

      diarist himself noted. He starts off talking about antibiotic resistance - which is a genuine problem and will of a certainty kill people before the next paradigm shift occurs - and then details an experiment showing damage to plants by environmental levels of chlortetracyclines: BUT the experimenters had to use a transgenic variety selected for its sensitivity to CTCs. So the results are only significant to experimental scientists, but you'd have to drill down into the literature to be able to figure that out. Not a hair-on-fire matter, after all.

    •  No fan of the diarist (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Lujane

      But he did identify this as a "brief throwaway diary."

      Why did you HR the tip jar?

      It's not how many votes are cast, but counted.

      by ozsea1 on Sun Oct 02, 2011 at 09:51:55 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  This (0+ / 0-)
      assholes at Greenpeace
      we have Greenpeace members on this site .

      "Drop the name-calling." Meteor Blades 2/4/11

      by indycam on Sun Oct 02, 2011 at 09:55:47 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  we have members of many different groups, if (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        churchylafemme, northsylvania

        that's the only justification it's some pretty weak sauce.....

        The diarist is abrasive, but interesting more often than not.

        Vaya con Dios Don Alejo
        I want to die a slave to principles. Not to men.
        Emiliano Zapata

        by buddabelly on Sun Oct 02, 2011 at 10:09:27 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  see also Indycam's apparent attempt to.... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          buddabelly

          .... bait the diarist with "Go for it!  I double-dog dare you!!!" and then HR the diarist in a personal arguement (the latter being a clear TOS violation).

          What do you think?  Reportable to admin?  

          "Minus one vote for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

          by G2geek on Sun Oct 02, 2011 at 10:41:47 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  The guy seems to think he's on a playground. (0+ / 0-)

            "I DOUBLE TRIPLE DARE YOU!!!!   IF YOU DON'T DO IT YOU'RE A CHICKEN!!!"

            I think we should let it go and let it speak for itself..

            So he shows up wherever I write to issue stupid hide rates...

            Who cares?

            Hide rates on a blog don't matter.

        •  Apparently (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          buddabelly

          any excuse is a good excuse for some people.

          Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
          -- Albert Einstein

          by bryfry on Sun Oct 02, 2011 at 10:53:14 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  we have Republicans on this site too: (0+ / 0-)

        So according to your "logic", a comment such as "those assholes in the Republican party" is also HR-able.

        So let's see your history of HR-ing comments such as "those assholes in the Republican party."  

        Otherwise, the inconsistency is glaring and blaring.  

        "Minus one vote for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

        by G2geek on Sun Oct 02, 2011 at 10:40:31 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  So how are your efforts to ban chlorine (0+ / 0-)

        from the planet going?

  •  I have no dispute (6+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    pico, OHdog, mskitty, the fan man, NNadir, Wee Mama

    that the overuse of antibiotics is a problem--both by farming interests and by stupid humans for their family use.

    I just don't think it's irreversible and/or insurmountable with other strategies.

    Further, it only strengthens my desire to see very target-specific interventions rather than broad-spectrum sort of stuff.

    My fear is that misinformation about their value will cause certain hair-flambe types to try to run off half-cocked, and ban them for developing countries. The evidence is mounting that infectious disease may fundamentally alter the competitiveness of people in affected regions:

    Why Is Average IQ Higher in Some Places?

    Doubt is cheap. Finding out is hard. --@Daniel_Loxton

    by mem from somerville on Sun Oct 02, 2011 at 09:09:23 PM PDT

    •  what's needed is to put ABs on FDA Sched II.... (3+ / 0-)

      .... and include veterinary formulations as well.  

      That would just about eliminate AB abuse in humans and other animals, at least in the US.   Similar steps could be taken globally, plus or minus the logistical hassles and political obstacles (not to mention overt corruption).

      Re. IQ and infectious disease:  Yes, that would seem to explain many of the other apparent correlations that were found in earlier studies.  

      However one might also argue that nutrition is a cofactor:  given a borderline satisfactory level of nutrition, high exposure to infectious disease will put sufficient demands on the body as to render that level of nutrition inadequate to both support the responses to disease (e.g. immune system, tissue repair systems) and support normal brain development.  Contrast to a higher level of nutrition that is sufficient to enable an individual to both fight disease (and repair tissue) and have normal brain development.  

      Further, the causal arrow may become a circle, where poverty >> disease and marginal nutrition >> low IQ >> low competitiveness >> poverty (and around we go again).

      See also K-selection vs. R-selection in terms of reproductive strategies:  R-selection is not favorable to the degree of nurturance needed to maximize developmental outcomes for every offspring.  

      "Minus one vote for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

      by G2geek on Sun Oct 02, 2011 at 10:55:26 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  There are other strategies to kill bacteria (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mem from somerville

      therapeutically, such as through phages (viruses that target bacteria) and with maggots, which are FDA approved medical devices.

    •  If you think antibiotics are misused here, please (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Wee Mama, mem from somerville

      don't look at developing countries for guidance or fear they will be cut off from imports. This cat is completely out of the bag and is frankly one scary animal.

      Very few countries require a prescription from a health professional; education and compliance with full course of treatment is next to non-existent, drugs avail at pharmacies are not often checked for either manufacturing standards (just like herbal preps) or date compliance, and finally, agricultural abuse is rampant. The sewage water from particular pharmaceutical plants in India have enough antibiotics to treat most disease w/o further amendment.

      I've seen good news articles floating here and there about new approaches to antibiotics, couldn't come at a better time. I have a friend leaving for central Europe to work with MDR TB cases for DWB. My wife works with a similar population here. It's pretty scary to be honest.

       

      All problems contain the seeds of their own solutions and all solutions contain the seeds of the next set of problem. - Jonas Salk

      by the fan man on Mon Oct 03, 2011 at 05:25:59 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Well, as you know, that's not my intent. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mem from somerville

      Maybe it's not a good idea to post science stuff on pop websites.

      I don't know.   I kind of wrestle with that.

      I recall that the men who built the nuclear industry were the first to ever do a risk analysis for a form of energy.   The mere fact that they had sought to make a quantitative estimate got the industry in huge trouble when people who knew no science got a hold of it.

    •  Extremely interesting - I hope you do a diary on (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      NNadir, mem from somerville

      that subject as few will see it here.

      Is it true? Is it kind? Is it necessary? . . . and respect the dignity of every human being.

      by Wee Mama on Mon Oct 03, 2011 at 08:15:35 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  When the diarist learns to exclude (6+ / 0-)

    rude, and pointless comments about Greenpeace or others with whom he has disagreement, there is a small likelihood that his fan club will increase in number.
    I won't hold my breath.

    •  That (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Wee Mama
      assholes at Greenpeace

      is reprehensible, but not HR-worthy, imho.

      It's not how many votes are cast, but counted.

      by ozsea1 on Sun Oct 02, 2011 at 09:56:04 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Please don't hold your breath. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mem from somerville

      If there is one class of people who are definitely not listed under people who I would choose to have as "fans," the members of Greenpeace would be that class.

      I would frankly be embarrassed were I being applauded by Greenpeace.

      They are everything I despise, closed minded, faith based, dogmatic, and totally inflexible.     In short, I see them as conservatives, the sort of people who object to anything they can't understand, while correspondingly insisting that anyone who disagrees with them is inherently venal and/or evil.

      By the way, not that one would know this at Greenpeace, where they apparently despise molecular biology almost as much as they despise nuclear science - opposition to both sciences deriving from total ignorance of each of them - transgenic species have long been known, for billions of years probably.

      When the human genome was sequenced several years back, researchers were surprised to learn how much of that genome was viral in origin.

      In fact gene insertion, like mutagenesis, seems to be one mechanism for evolution.

      Were someone in charge of evolution - and my personal opinion is that evolution is not controlled by anyone but is in fact, random - I'm sure that Greenpeace would have been inspired to protest, and maybe even vandalize his or her work.

  •  I don't know what all the hoo-haw is about, (5+ / 0-)

    but I appreciate the diary, the ACS-linked article, and the discussion of drugs entering the water cycle via human waste.  Research has barely scratched the surface of potential impacts.  T&R'd.

    "And now we know that government by organized money is just as dangerous as government by organized mob." -- FDR

    by Mogolori on Sun Oct 02, 2011 at 09:24:21 PM PDT

    •  Are you a Greenpeace member who was (0+ / 0-)

      just called an asshole ?

      "Drop the name-calling." Meteor Blades 2/4/11

      by indycam on Sun Oct 02, 2011 at 09:57:52 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  why do you ask? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        northsylvania, Wee Mama

        Did you just come to NNadir's diary to stir up nastiness?

        Ever hear of the "house guest rule?"

        Baiting, and HR-ing arguements, and trolling for reactions, are not civil disagreement, they're personal attack.  

        "Minus one vote for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

        by G2geek on Sun Oct 02, 2011 at 10:58:03 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  don't take the bait. (0+ / 0-)

      Indycam "does not like" NNadir and is apparently on a rip-tear tonight looking to provoke NNadir into doing something that will get him in trouble with the admins.  Don't get drawn into that.  

      "Minus one vote for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

      by G2geek on Sun Oct 02, 2011 at 10:59:02 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  FOODFIGHT!!!!!! off THAT topic.... (0+ / 0-)

    synthetic estrogens and similar compounds are reducing male fertility....    all those birth control hormones and other synthetic compounds similar to hormones are decreasing sperm counts.....

    I wonder if we'll end up as a bad sci-fi movie:

    Earth needs MEN!

    This is also an issue for women with breast cancer and other hormone sensitive cancers.  Chicken breasts and other foods have high hormone levels that should be avoided.

  •  Orchard owners have routinely used Streptomycin (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Wee Mama, mem from somerville

    and Tetracycline to ward off certain disease since the 50s. Standards for these materials is questionable, even in this country. Resistant disease organisms have been recorded in orchard fields worldwide. Happy days.

    Scientists, get to work on the next round of miracle drugs.

    All problems contain the seeds of their own solutions and all solutions contain the seeds of the next set of problem. - Jonas Salk

    by the fan man on Mon Oct 03, 2011 at 05:29:39 AM PDT

  •  Hmm . . . I wonder how hard it would be to select (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mem from somerville

    an organism that degrades tetracycline, and then package the necessary genes in with a BT producer? Modifying soil flora is an underappreciated strategy for increasing productivity.

    Is it true? Is it kind? Is it necessary? . . . and respect the dignity of every human being.

    by Wee Mama on Mon Oct 03, 2011 at 08:18:42 AM PDT

  •  boy, a lot of people here spend a lot of (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    NNadir

    time insulting and HR and rules, blah, blah

    forget it guys

    Je regretez tout. How's me French?

    by Mark B on Tue Oct 04, 2011 at 11:02:15 AM PDT

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