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Perry kept mum over the weekend, but it his campaign and allies launched the attack on Romney's faith on Friday afternoon (Jonathan Ernst/Reuters)
AP reports on the GOP field's reaction to the Perry campaign's none-too-subtle attempt at playing the Mormon card against Mitt Romney:
Two Republican presidential candidates refused to say Sunday whether they believe Mitt Romney, a Mormon, is a Christian, while a third said he doesn't agree with a Texas pastor who called the religion a "cult."

Businessman Herman Cain and Minnesota congresswoman Michele Bachmann declined to answer questions about Romney's Mormon religion.

"He's a Mormon, that much I know," Cain said. "I am not going to do an analysis of Mormonism versus Christianity for the sake of answering that."
Bachmann called the issue a distraction.

"I think what the real focus is here, is on religious tolerance. That's really what this is about," Bachmann said. "To make this a big issue is ridiculous right now, because every day I'm on the street talking to people. This is not what people are talking about."

Both of those answers are total punts, though Bachmann gets points for punting more smoothly. One the one hand, how can you argue with her defending "religious tolerance." On the other hand, have you ever heard her talk about religious tolerance before? And isn't that a subtle way of describing Romney as "an other"? Plus, she managed to point out multiple times in the same interview that she has a firm faith. But yeah, she tolerates heathens like Romney, I guess.

Santorum went a step further than Cain or Bachmann and called Romney a good guy, which on the surface sounds like a defense:

"I'm not an expert on Mormonism. All I know is that every Mormon I know is a good and decent person, has great moral values," Santorum said.

He would have loved to leave it at that: notice Santorum never actually addressed Romney's faith, an obvious omission. But he had to answer a follow up.

But when asked if he believed Romney is "a true Christian," Santorum spoke somewhat haltingly: "Mitt Romney is a true, he says he's a Christian. I believe he said Christian."

In other words, well, that's what he's saying. Not me!

The only guy who was actually willing to criticize the attacks on Romney was Newt Gingrich:

Former House Speaker Newt Gingrich, another GOP presidential contender, criticized Jeffress' comments on Sunday, calling them "very unwise and very inappropriate."

"I think that none of us should sit in judgment on somebody else's religion," Gingrich said. "I think he's a Mormon and Mormons define themselves as a branch of Christianity."

I guess he can smell the VP nomination from his window.

Originally posted to The Jed Report on Mon Oct 10, 2011 at 07:30 AM PDT.

Also republished by Daily Kos.

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Comment Preferences

  •  What do you expect (5+ / 0-)

    They have no moral courage.  They also have little chance of beating Romney, but they still hope to do so.

    •  Except (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Rogneid, Philpm

      Perry would be the better candidate to run against Obama.    Recently tea baggers seem to be saying that they will not protest Romney and will concentrate on the Senate.

      What the hell was the last 2 years all about with the prancing tea baggers yelling they will not accept a RINO this time?    What a disappointment!  

      I wish they could beat Romney.

      •  Better? (0+ / 0-)

        For who?

        The Far Right Christian Taliban think Romney is not one of them on Gays, Abortion and any other social issue. In short, they hate Romney.

        If you're talking R primaries, Perry is the darling of the Christian Taliban, who are a minority even among the tea party types.

        In the General election, Romney by being attacked by the Christian Taliban gets points from I's and moderates and F the social conservative Taliban.

        •  Fundamentalist Christians are NOT a minority (0+ / 0-)

          in the republican party.

          •  Really (0+ / 0-)

            How many fundamentalist Christan are there, 20 Million or so, and the Republican party is what over 100 Million or so? Of that 20 Million Fundamentalist Christian Taliban, how many are out and out bigots like this Dallas preacher? Do the Christian Taliban represent American values of the mainstream, NO!

            How many I's and Moderate R's are there?

            To win the Primaries you have to pander to the Christian Taliban, to win General elections you have to get as far way from them as you can.  

  •  at least they can take a fifth (I prefer rum) (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Philpm, Rogneid
    The Reason that Mormons don't drink alcohol basically boils down to that the Lord revealed to his children that we should abstain from certian things. Here's what was said by the Lord about that. " 5. That inasmuch as any man adrinketh wine or strong drink among you, behold it is not good, neither meet in the sight of your Father, only in assembling yourselves together to offer up your sacraments before him.  
    6. And, behold, this should be wine, yea, apure wine of the grape of the vine, of your own make.  
    7 And, again, astrong drinks are not for the belly, but for the washing of your bodies.  
    8 And again, tobacco is not for the abody, neither for the belly, and is not good for man, but is an herb for bruises and all sick cattle, to be used with judgment and skill."

    I am off my metas! Präsidentenelf-maßschach; Warning-Some Snark Above"Nous sommes un groupuscule" (-9.50; -7.03)

    by annieli on Mon Oct 10, 2011 at 07:34:20 AM PDT

  •  Herman Cain (16+ / 0-)

    went there

    "He's a Mormon, that much I know," Cain said. "I am not going to do an analysis of Mormonism versus Christianity for the sake of answering that."
    and he probably doesn't even know he did it.

    "A lie is not the other side of a story; it's just a lie."

    by happy camper on Mon Oct 10, 2011 at 07:35:28 AM PDT

    •  that was quite the dog whistle. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      qofdisks

      Used to be, Catholics like Gingrich and Santorum didn't count either.  That's the wedge Mike Heffalump used against Brownback in Iowa last time.

      "This world demands the qualities of youth: not a time of life but a state of mind[.]" -- Robert F. Kennedy

      by Loge on Mon Oct 10, 2011 at 08:21:43 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Still don't count (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        qofdisks

        according to Perry's favorite preacher:

        This is the Babylonian mystery religion that spread like a cult throughout the entire world. The high priests of that fake religion, that false religion, the high priests of that religion would wear crowns that resemble the heads of fish, that was in order to worship the fish god Dagon, and on those crowns were written the words, 'Keeper of the Bridge,' the bridge between Satan and man. That phrase 'Keeper of the Bridge,' the Roman equivalent of it is Pontifex Maximus. It was a title that was first carried by the Caesars and then the Emperors and finally by the Bishop of the Rome, Pontifex Maximus, the Keeper of the Bridge.

        You can see where we're going with this. It is that Babylonian mystery religion that infected the early church, one of the churches it infected was the church of Pergamos, which is one of the recipients of the Book of Revelation. And the early church was corrupted by this Babylonian mystery religion, and today the Roman Catholic Church is the result of that corruption.

        Much of what you see in the Catholic Church today doesn't come from God's Word, it comes from that cult-like, pagan religion. Now you say, 'pastor how can you say such a thing? That is such an indictment of the Catholic Church. After all the Catholic Church talks about God and the Bible and Jesus and the Blood of Christ and Salvation.'

        Isn't that the genius of Satan? If you want to counterfeit a dollar bill, you don't do it with purple paper and red ink, you're not going to fool anybody with that. But if you want to counterfeit money, what you do is make it look closely related to the real thing as possible.

        And that's what Satan does with counterfeit religion. He uses, he steals, he appropriates all of the symbols of true biblical Christianity, and he changes it just enough in order to cause people to miss eternal life.

        Now to try to end the wars we ask our gay and straight soldiers to fight. -- Chris Hayes

        by Cali Scribe on Mon Oct 10, 2011 at 08:53:36 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  This reminds me of the great (0+ / 0-)

          James G. Blaine, who probably lost the 1884 presidential election (by 0.3%) for sharing a stage with a Preacher who said the Democratic Party stood for "Rum, Romanism, and Rebellion."  

          This passed for fighting words at the time, and was probably the inspiration for "Acid, Amnesty, and Abortion" as an attack on George McGovern.  (Indeed, the three line up well.)

          Jeffress also sounds like "the Church Lady."  Could it be Satan?

          "This world demands the qualities of youth: not a time of life but a state of mind[.]" -- Robert F. Kennedy

          by Loge on Mon Oct 10, 2011 at 09:03:48 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Herman Cain stutters (0+ / 0-)

      On October 29, 2007, Herman Cain wrote an article entitled Mitt Romney is a Mormon and I am a Baptist: Get Over It!

      From the article:

      The Baptists, Methodists, Catholics, Lutherans, Pentecostals, Mormons and a few other faiths have three things in common – they believe in Jesus Christ, that He is the Son of God and that He died and was resurrected for our sins.

      So what's the problem?

      The political pundits continue to try and make Mitt Romney's religious beliefs a big issue as he runs for the Republican presidential nomination. Different denominations of Christianity are just that – different denominations – which means different worship practices of the same fundamental Christian beliefs.

      Some people have commented that they cannot support Mitt Romney because he is a Mormon. When they are pressed to explain why that is objectionable, they stutter. Still others are skeptical of Mitt Romney based solely on hearsay or lack of knowledge about Mormons.

      It appears that Cain had more clairity on the issue back in 2007.  

      Read Cain's entire article here before it's scrubbed:  http://www.economicfreedomcoalition.com/...

    •  Mormonism versus Christianity?? (0+ / 0-)

      Ah yes, yet another reason that Citizen Cain should not be taken seriously. I mean if the CEO of Papa John's was running maybe, but Godfather's?? Get real..

      http://keith-darling-brekhus.suite101.com/...

  •  Romney/Gingrich? Can I have some... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Philpm, polecat

    ...of whatever you are smoking that even caused that wacko idea to pop into your mind!!! :-D

    "Politics is like driving. To go backward put it in R. To go forward put it in D."

    by TrueBlueMajority on Mon Oct 10, 2011 at 07:36:53 AM PDT

  •  Mitt Romney is Barack Obama (7+ / 0-)

    Rick Perry says so.

    Here we are now Entertain us I feel stupid and contagious

    by Scarce on Mon Oct 10, 2011 at 07:37:22 AM PDT

  •  Watch 'em run! (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JML9999, Philpm, alicia, skillet

        A real "Profiles In Courage" moment for the GOP field.

    The Republican motto: "There's been a lot of progress in this country over the last 75 years, and we've been against all of it."

    by Hillbilly Dem on Mon Oct 10, 2011 at 07:38:06 AM PDT

  •  I think I get it now (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    skillet, polecat, qofdisks

    The other candidates recruited Perry to come in and flat out say all the outrageous shit they believe but that they're too scared to say out loud.

    Corporate philosophy for consumers: Work, buy, shut up and die.

    by Philpm on Mon Oct 10, 2011 at 07:41:35 AM PDT

  •  A mormon president..What would the children think? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Philpm
  •  Why the fear of Mormonism? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Philpm, TFinSF
    •  Magic underwear. (4+ / 0-)

      How do you expect Perry, Cain and Bachmann to compete with that?

      ....no longer in SF.... -9.00, -7.38

      by TFinSF on Mon Oct 10, 2011 at 07:51:32 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Because they believe different things (9+ / 0-)

      Essentially, LDS teaches that mainstream Christians aren't practicing the correct faith because what they thought was a pair of books was actually a trilogy.   It's difficult to summarize this easily; this Fr. Richard Neuhaus piece for First Things may help. In part:

      Some have suggested that the LDS is a Christian derivative much as Christianity is a Jewish derivative, but that is surely wrong. The claim of Christianity is that its gospel of Jesus Christ is in thorough continuity with the Old Testament and historic Israel, that the Church is the New Israel, which means that it is the fulfillment of the promise that Israel would be "a light to the nations." The Church condemned Marcion’s rejection of the Old Testament, and she never presumed to rewrite or correct the Hebrew Scriptures on the basis of a new revelation. On the contrary, she insisted that the entirety of the old covenant bears witness to the new. While it is a Christian derivative, the LDS is, by way of sharpest contrast, in radical discontinuity with historical Christianity. The sacred stories and official teachings of the LDS could hardly be clearer about that. For missionary and public relations purposes, the LDS may present Mormonism as an "add-on," a kind of Christianity-plus, but that is not the official narrative and doctrine.

      A closer parallel might be with Islam. Islam is a derivative of Judaism, and Christianity. Like Joseph Smith, Muhammad in the seventh century claimed new revelations and produced in the Qur’an a "corrected" version of the Jewish and Christian scriptures, presumably by divine dictation. Few dispute that Islam is a new and another religion, and Muslims do not claim to be Christian, although they profess a deep devotion to Jesus. Like Joseph Smith and his followers, they do claim to be the true children of Abraham. Christians in dialogue with Islam understand it to be an interreligious, not an ecumenical, dialogue. Ecumenical dialogue is dialogue between Christians. Dialogue with Mormons who represent official LDS teaching is interreligious dialogue.

      •  This still strikes me as (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        milton333, gsbadj, Philpm, Jon Says

        a "no true Scotsman" fallacy.  Regardless of the etiology, if they believe JC is the "son of God" and consider themselves Christians, then they are Christians.  It isn't up to different Christians to determine who is or is not, based on historical precedence or other reasons.

        ....no longer in SF.... -9.00, -7.38

        by TFinSF on Mon Oct 10, 2011 at 07:59:01 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  It's not for me to say. (4+ / 0-)

          But I understand why other Christians decline to accept as their brothers those who insist that their teaching is wrong.  More from Neuhaus -- again, by way of explanation, since as a non-Christian I can't begin to comment on the overall validity:

          Asking whether Mormonism is Christian or Mormons are Christians (a slightly different question) is thought to be insulting. "How can you ask that," protests a Mormon friend, "when we clearly love the Lord Jesus as much as we do?" It is true that St. Paul says that nobody can say "Jesus is Lord" except by the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:3). But that only indicates that aspects of Mormon faith are touched by the Holy Spirit, as is every element of truth no matter where it is found. A Mormon academic declares that asking our question "is a bit like asking if African Americans are human." No, it is not even a bit like that. "Christian" in this context is not honorific but descriptive. Nobody questions whether Mormons are human. To say that Jews, Muslims, or Buddhists are not Christians is no insult. It is a statement of fact, indeed of respect for their difference. The question is whether that is a fact and a difference that applies also to Mormonism.

          The question as asked by Mormons is turned around: are non-Mormons who claim to be Christians in fact so? The emphatic and repeated answer of the Mormon scriptures and the official teaching of the LDS is that we are not. We are members of "the great and abominable church" that was built by frauds and imposters after the death of the first apostles. The true church and true Christianity simply went out of existence, except for its American Indian interlude, until it was rediscovered and reestablished by Joseph Smith in upstate New York, and its claims will be vindicated when Jesus returns, sooner rather than later, at a prophetically specified intersection in Jackson County, Missouri.

          ...  Mormonism claims that God is an exalted man, not different in kind as Creator is different in kind from creature. The Mormon claim is, "What God was, we are. What God is, we will become." Related to this is the teaching that the world was not created ex nihilo but organized into its present form, and that the trespass in the Garden of Eden, far from being the source of original sin, was a step toward becoming what God is. Further, Mormonism teaches that there is a plurality of gods. Mormons dislike the term "polytheism," preferring "henotheism," meaning that there is a head God who is worshiped as supreme. If Christian doctrine is summarized in, for instance, the Apostles’ Creed as understood by historic Christianity, official LDS teaching adds to the creed, deviates from it, or starkly opposes it almost article by article.

        •  Ahem (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          TFinSF, Adam B, Philpm, slksfca

          I believe that Mormons have Jesus as one of the sons of God. As was Lucifer.

          That's at least moderately different than the Only Begotten Son of the Father, Full of Grace and Truth.

          In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice; but in practice, there always is a difference. - Yogi Berra

          by blue aardvark on Mon Oct 10, 2011 at 08:17:01 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Cool! (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Philpm
            I believe that Mormons have Jesus as one of the sons of God. As was Lucifer.

            This could make for a cool "historical" fiction movie, IMO.  Maybe it's already made?

            ....no longer in SF.... -9.00, -7.38

            by TFinSF on Mon Oct 10, 2011 at 08:24:00 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  I remember Huckabee making a thing (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Philpm, TFinSF, slksfca

            about this.

            I think the biggest difference isn't theology, it's just pure group association.  Mormons are different because they're different.  Also, LDS and SBC compete for recruits, like all the time, so like any argument, it's really about money.

            "This world demands the qualities of youth: not a time of life but a state of mind[.]" -- Robert F. Kennedy

            by Loge on Mon Oct 10, 2011 at 08:27:02 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  True, but not exactly (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            blue aardvark

            Mormons do believe that Jesus was the Only Begotten in the flesh; the rest of the story is sort of similar to Milton's Paradise Lost, with the difference that Lucifer and the other rebel angels were also sons (and daughters) of God who forfeited their chance at mortal life.

            There are, in every age, new errors to be rectified, and new prejudices to be opposed. ~Samuel Johnson (1709-1784)

            by slksfca on Mon Oct 10, 2011 at 08:36:43 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  Where's Mary Baker Eddy when you need her? (0+ / 0-)

        Speaking of extra volumes and cults.

        (Science and Health)

        Happy little moron, Lucky little man.
        I wish I was a moron, MY GOD, Perhaps I am!
        —Spike Milligan

        by polecat on Mon Oct 10, 2011 at 08:10:17 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  What (0+ / 0-)

        happened to freedom of religion? isn't that one of the reasons we came to America?

      •  That's part of the problem (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        slksfca, Adam B

        with many fundamentalists -- the Book of Mormon.

        There's a passage towards the end of Revelation:

        I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book

        Many fundamentalist scholars interpret that verse as applying not just to the book of Revelation, but indeed to the entire Bible, notwithstanding the fact that the Bible was assembled by human beings several centuries after it was written (or the oral history passed down in most cases). Therefore, any group that uses an additional text as an authority, whether it be the Book of Mormon, Christian Science's Science and Health with Key to the Scriptures, or what have you, are instantly suspect.

        Now to try to end the wars we ask our gay and straight soldiers to fight. -- Chris Hayes

        by Cali Scribe on Mon Oct 10, 2011 at 09:04:21 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Because the whole thing's made up? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      BobTheHappyDinosaur

      I guess if you actually believe that golden plates were burried in America and that Jesus was white and also born in America, then you can have no fear of Mormanism.

      But generally I fear those people who have no knowledge of basic physics or any comon sense in general.  They are dangerous and should be feared.  Not because they're evil, but because people who are that ignorant tend to do very stupid things without thinking about the consequence.

      Mormons = children running with knives.

      •  Well (0+ / 0-)

        I believe that all religion is made up.  I have no reason to find Mormonism any more improbable than the others.

        Thought is only a flash in the middle of a long night, but the flash that means everything - Henri Poincaré

        by milton333 on Mon Oct 10, 2011 at 08:20:02 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  True to a point, (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Norm in Chicago

          but we witnessed, as a society, Mormonism being made up in real time, not to mention going to war with the federal government.  (The last part might not be too bad with neoconfederates, except for the fact that Brigham Young agreed to be bought off by Abe Lincoln.)

          "This world demands the qualities of youth: not a time of life but a state of mind[.]" -- Robert F. Kennedy

          by Loge on Mon Oct 10, 2011 at 08:28:44 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Mormonism is new enough for someone to say (2+ / 0-)

          "Yeah, that didn't happen".

          All religion is made up bullshit, but people accept all of the brands of Christianity because of the remote chance that something that happened 2,000 years ago might be true, since we don't have a historical record proving or disproving it. But Mormonism is new and history proves it's all a bunch of BS, and yet people still believe in it.

          And the 9 AM Saturday wake up calls from missionaries ringing the door bell doesn't do anything to help it's public image.

          TEABAGGER: Totally Enraged About Blacks And Gays Getting Equal Rights

          by yg17 on Mon Oct 10, 2011 at 09:01:56 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Both Mormons and the Southern Baptists (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      aaraujo

      are aggressive prosletyzers, including in each other.

      Also, the Lavell Edwards BYU teams of the 1980s threw the ball too much.  How can they call themselves conservatives?

      "This world demands the qualities of youth: not a time of life but a state of mind[.]" -- Robert F. Kennedy

      by Loge on Mon Oct 10, 2011 at 08:23:19 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Mormons retroactively baptized Holocaust Jews (9+ / 0-)

    Any of the actors pretending to be "journalists" on the teevee going to ask Romney if he supports the Church of Later Day Saints's long-running program to retroactively baptize Jews who died in the Holocaust so they wouldn't remain in hell?

    The L.D.S has spent millions of dollars cataloguing the names of dead Jews from the Holocaust so they can be retroactively baptized for Jesus (and Joe Smith), so they'll go to heaven:

    http://www.jewishgen.org/...

    Here's the agreement in 1995 when the L.D.S. agreed to stop the practice and only target those Jews who'd "Descended from Mormon faith":

    http://www.avotaynu.com/...

    Any comment, Romney?  Huntsman?

    If you're both so religious, surely you have thoughts on whether it's appropriate to "save" those Jews rotting in hell after the Holocaust for simply being Jews.

    •  The veil of religion (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      CoExistNow, Philpm, schnecke21

      This is one of the reasons that I have a problem with the notion that we should give wide berth to people's religious beliefs.  There are some truly appalling and callous things done in the name of religion, and if we want to understand the character of our presidential candidates, I think it's appropriate to ask them if they subscribe to some of the more obnoxious tenets of their respective faiths.

      It is a very common, ongoing Mormon practice to baptize dead people, and to "stand in" as a surrogate for the deceased in a ritual ceremony associated with making this dead person a "member" of the Mormon church.  Now, maybe that all just seems foolish to non-Mormons, but the example of exploiting victims of the Holocaust is particularly insensitive.  Other religious faiths have their own problems, of course, and I'd like to hear Bachmann talk about her thoughts on sexism in fundamentalist Christianity, whether she supports the activities of Westboro Baptist Church, etc.  Same for each of them.

      You can't use religion as both a sword and a shield.  Can't claim that being religious makes you moral, or that your religion is the source of your values, and then claim that a critical examination of that religion is off-limits.

      Thought is only a flash in the middle of a long night, but the flash that means everything - Henri Poincaré

      by milton333 on Mon Oct 10, 2011 at 07:59:19 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  As a Jew, why (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Norm in Chicago, Rich in PA, Philpm

      should I get worked up about the foolish fantasies of the LDS elders? To get offended suggests that I attribute some reality to the made up story of baptism after death.

      “I hope we shall crush… in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." T. Jefferson

      by Red Bean on Mon Oct 10, 2011 at 08:02:30 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Good point (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        milton333, Philpm, Red Bean

        Religion already teeters on the edge of being a game made up by 6 year olds, with the way the rules are so fluid.  To be able to say that a person's soul can be redirected after death by someone who the person never knew is really just completely non-sensical, and goes against all the self-determination built into religion.

        So God judges us on our lives and actions, but will then change his mind based on a silly LDS prayer?  So no, I agree that it doesn't have any effect.

        But if some nut was praying for the souls of my ancestors to go to hell, even though I know it's meaningless, I'd still be pissed about it.  The souls of others are none of their business, and anyone who tries to have that much control over other people is inherently dangerous.

        •  Have you seen the (0+ / 0-)

          VW commercial of the little boy dressed as Darth Vader who goes around the house trying to animate various objects and finally believes he succeeds when his father turns on his Passat with his remote?

          http://www.youtube.com/...

          I don't think I would get offended if I found out an LDS person had performed a ritual using a dead relative's name. I think I would say, "What a rich fantasy life you have!"

          I think their danger is largely related to any credence people give to their imaginative belief systems.

          “I hope we shall crush… in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." T. Jefferson

          by Red Bean on Mon Oct 10, 2011 at 08:33:04 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  It's not a made up story (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        milton333, WinSmith, askew

        I'm Jewish and I'm offended. And the story is real. Deny at your own peril.

        •  What's made up (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Philpm

          is the story that performing a ritual over a list of names has any effect. I don't believe in hexes, I don't believe in spells and I don't believe in vicarious baptism. I'm funny that way.

          “I hope we shall crush… in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." T. Jefferson

          by Red Bean on Mon Oct 10, 2011 at 08:18:35 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  That crazy belief has done a world of good. (0+ / 0-)

          Mormons are seriously into archival preservation and they go where nobody else does to save and microfilm obscure records.  They're relentless.

          But nobody's buying flowers from the flower lady.

          by Rich in PA on Mon Oct 10, 2011 at 08:22:02 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Are you kidding? (0+ / 0-)

            Should descedents of those who died in the Holocaust be thanking Mormons for the excellent record-keeping and overlook that the impulse to "save" Jews that the Mormons are demonstrating was the same impulse that drove the Holocaust itself?

            If you can't see the connection between believing Jews are going to hell for rejecting Christ, and the 1000+ years of persecution of Jewish people that's taken place in Europe, I suggest you read a history book.

            Hitler didn't appear in a vacuum.

            •  They do this to anybody (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Rich in PA, slksfca

              and everybody. And they have. Is there any evidence that they believe Jews are any less likely to go to heaven than say, Roman Catholics or Jains?

              “I hope we shall crush… in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." T. Jefferson

              by Red Bean on Mon Oct 10, 2011 at 08:35:49 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  That's completely over the top. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              slksfca, Red Bean

              It's definitionally impossible for a religion that believes in the possibility of saving past non-believers to be more repellent than a religion that considers all past non-believers to be irredeemably damned or at least deprived of salvation.  A religion like the former is, perhaps, more obnoxious than the latter, but as the saying goes, it's only because they care.

              But nobody's buying flowers from the flower lady.

              by Rich in PA on Mon Oct 10, 2011 at 09:28:09 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  Practice continued AFTER Israel asked them to stop (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      milton333, WinSmith, Philpm

      As someone said in California after Prop 8, why don't we take all the souls of the dead Mormons and convert them into "teh gay."

    •  The practice of "baptism of the dead" (0+ / 0-)

      is one of the weirder aspects of the LDS faith...but it's been a Godsend (no pun intended) for genealogists. My late father-in-law spent many hours going over microfiche records at the local LDS library when he was researching his family's history (his parents divorced and his mother remarried when he was only 5 years old, so he felt compelled to find out more of his family history on all sides).

      Now to try to end the wars we ask our gay and straight soldiers to fight. -- Chris Hayes

      by Cali Scribe on Mon Oct 10, 2011 at 09:08:58 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Beck reassures the bigots that it's all good (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Philpm, polecat, Rich in PA

    Glenn Beck To VVS: Mormons Also Love Jesus

    “I harbor no ill will or wish to hurt anyone as people have come onto this stage and been for or against I guess members of my faith, i celebrate their right to say those things,” Beck said. “But let me say this: I am a proud member of the Church of Jesus Christ.”

    Beck left off the “of Latter-Day Saints” part.

    Wonder if he just outed himself to those who didn't know he was LDS.

    We view "The Handmaid's Tale" as cautionary. The GOP views it as an instruction book.

    by Vita Brevis on Mon Oct 10, 2011 at 07:46:29 AM PDT

  •  romney-gingrich (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Philpm

    a GREAT ticket because they are both so LOVABLE and BELOVED

    Politics is not arithmetic. It's chemistry.

    by tamandua on Mon Oct 10, 2011 at 07:46:33 AM PDT

  •  All organized religion are cults. (4+ / 0-)

    Christians, Jews, Hindus Muslims, Buddhists.  And I say that as a person whose Mother is a Muslim, Father a Hindu, raised Anglican and went to Catholic school and now have no affiliation after seeing what these religions stand for.

    And I want someone to ask these people why their so called Christianity is to be made an issue of. They're such big Constituionalists that they don't know about the whole "separation of church and state" all up in there?

  •  The only surprising thing... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Philpm, TFinSF

    is that none of them said anything to the effect of "Whatever the case, at least he's not a Muslim."

  •  Mormon = Muslim (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    slksfca, Philpm

    Just wait for this falsehood to arise:

    Mormon = Muslim, a third book.

    Muslims have many prophets and they include Jesus.  Mohammed is the newest prophet.

    Mormons have many prophets and they include Jesus.  Joseph Smith is the newest prophet (along with the many living prophets since Mormons started worshiping).

    The dialogue from this past weekends Value Voter Summit will continue.  Gov. Perry does not appear to be tolerant of other religions and he will beat this idea into the Evangelical base that drives the Republican primaries.  It was only a matter of time before the hate from the political-right picked up speed.

    On a similar note, I have no clue why religious and ethnic minorities ever vote TeaPublican - they are not wanted.  Mormons, Jews, Atheists, Non-Whites should all vote Democrat - we want you in our party and welcome our differences.

  •  Gingrich's doesn't say that... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TFinSF, Philpm, milton333

    he believes Mormons are Christians... just that Mormoms believe they're Christians.

    They also believe in wearing magic underwear, but I doubt Newt agrees with that.

  •  Chuck Todd speculates that the reason Romney is (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Philpm, annieli

    not heavy into Iowa and So Carolina is because he knows its hopeless...........Evangelicals have invested a lot of time money and effort into this process and I don't think they're going to go for a Mormon.

  •  It's a HUGE problem (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Philpm, polecat

    This isn't a small problem, it's a huge problem for the evangelical base.  I, as a "mere" Southern Baptist, was brought up to believe that Mormons were not Christians.  

    so you have Romney, a Mormon, versus Obama, who at least professes to be a Real Christian (TM).   Now, I don't for a second believe that evangelicals will vote for Obama over Romney.  But they may very well stay home rather than vote for an "avowed non-Christian".

    It may be that Governor Good-Hair is doing the right a favor by bringing this into the open NOW:  If evangelicals are really not going to support Romney at all, better to sink his nomination now for someone they will support.  The fact that the other candidates are shirking the question just goes to show how big of a concern it is for the entire field.

    Which leads us to the real problem.  Can someone capable of winning the primary have a chance with Independants in the general elections?  The only ones who really have a good chance at Independents are Huntsman and Romney, and they just don't have that wingnut pizzaz necessary to win the primary.

    Minority rights should never be subject to majority vote.

    by lostboyjim on Mon Oct 10, 2011 at 07:53:37 AM PDT

  •  First Amendment only protects Christians (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Philpm

    So it's a very important issue, doncha know?

    I don't know whether to laugh or cry that a Perry supporter was given a microphone to spout off that kind of nonsense about the First Amendment.

  •  Santorum Parses (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Philpm, Loge

    He said the same thing on Hardball. "He's a moral guy. He says he's a Christian, so if he says it I believe him"

    Just like the birth certificate jig, "He says he's a citizen"

    Not "I believe he is a" Christian, an American or "I denounce anyone who questions his" faith or citizenship.

    These guys, who present themselves as moral, religious gentlemen, can not bring themselves to correct these lies, as it may sink their candidacies.

    At least, John McCain had it in him to do so (although, he may regret it now).

    "Reason is six-sevenths of treason," said one of his neighbors. "Intelligence is what the enemy uses," said another.

    by Misterpuff on Mon Oct 10, 2011 at 08:00:55 AM PDT

  •  Can you see Gengrich on the VP campaign trail? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Philpm

    Would be about as enthusiastic as Lieberman in 2000... which is to say "MEH."

    Do you REMEMBER Lieberman in the debates against Cheney?  Can you imagine Gengrich on the campaign trail?  Does the phrase "Foot-in-Mouth" mean anything to you?  Worse than Biden.

    Gengrich will NOT be the VP choice.  Zero chance.

    Romney will have to pick a teabagger -- the teabagger de jure.

    Possibly Herman Cain.  We'll have to see.

    Happy little moron, Lucky little man.
    I wish I was a moron, MY GOD, Perhaps I am!
    —Spike Milligan

    by polecat on Mon Oct 10, 2011 at 08:02:05 AM PDT

    •  When Biden puts his foot in mouth (0+ / 0-)

      he's just telling it like it is, and I think people like that. Just like the "big fucking deal" remark on healthcare. Should a VP be dropping the f bomb on live TV? No, probably not. But, health care reform was a big fucking deal and he was just stating the truth.

      When Gingrich, Lieberman or Palin put their foot in their mouth, it's because they said something completely fucking stupid. Biden doesn't deserve to be put in that same category.

      TEABAGGER: Totally Enraged About Blacks And Gays Getting Equal Rights

      by yg17 on Mon Oct 10, 2011 at 09:07:23 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Seems like the easiest thing for Mitt (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Darmok, Philpm, Rashaverak

    to do is convert.  Proclaim that he's seen the light, and come down to Perry's pastor's church and become baptised as a full blown Southern Baptist born again evangelical.  Why not?  He's got no principles anyway..

    "I, Barack Hussein Obama, do solemely swear.."

    by cgvjelly on Mon Oct 10, 2011 at 08:06:48 AM PDT

  •  (G)Newt was defending HIMSELF against Jeffress (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Philpm, exterris

    No, it wasn't a principled defense of Mormonism that caused Gingrich to offer a tepid condemnation of Jeffress' remarks. Jeffress has considered Catholicism to be a cult and (G)newt recently converted.

    I'm not particularly religious, but if someone were bashing my religion, I wouldn't say something as flaccid as "it was very unwise and very inappropriate."

    Snip.

  •  There's a FIRST Amendment? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Rich in PA, Philpm

    Look folks this is simple. There are only two real amendments to the constitution; the 2nd and 10th.

    The rest are all liberal bullshit slipped in there by some commie union printer while the rest of us were drugged on the fluoride in the drinking water, or the bees. Or some illegal socialist continuing resolution. Something.

    Whatever.

    Maybe the Southern Baptist Convention and the GOP Convention could meet at the same time and place next year. Save 'em a boatload on hotel and airfare. And keep all the cultists out.

    Two most obscene words in the English language: financial services

    by BobBlueMass on Mon Oct 10, 2011 at 08:09:27 AM PDT

  •  I guess what this means (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    exterris

    is that the GOP electoral college map gets real complicated if you turn Utah, Idaho, and Nevada blue.

    In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice; but in practice, there always is a difference. - Yogi Berra

    by blue aardvark on Mon Oct 10, 2011 at 08:13:00 AM PDT

    •  Plenty of wealthy gays vote Republican... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Loge

      ...despite it all, so why wouldn't economically comfortable Mormons? At least the Republican party recognizes their marriages.

      But nobody's buying flowers from the flower lady.

      by Rich in PA on Mon Oct 10, 2011 at 08:23:56 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Source? (0+ / 0-)

        I don't think that there is much data to make statements about how the LGBT community as a whole votes, let alone breakdowns by income, race, religious views, etc.

        •  How about these guys: (0+ / 0-)

          "This world demands the qualities of youth: not a time of life but a state of mind[.]" -- Robert F. Kennedy

          by Loge on Mon Oct 10, 2011 at 08:32:28 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  And that constitutes "plenty of gays"? (0+ / 0-)

            I'm really not sure why the need to get in a dig at the LGBT community in this context.  Would it be a little more obvious if the initial comment had said, "plenty of blacks" or "plenty of Jews" vote for Republicans, for example?

            But please, let's all continue to look for ways to get in digs at each other.  I'm sure it will be a winning strategy next year.

            •  well, anecdotally, (0+ / 0-)

              i know a fair number of both gay and Jewish conservatives.  I think most of them voted for D's recently, because the republicans have lurched so far to the right, but they certainly have no problems not being liberal.  Oh, and according to CNN/WaPo, 27% of gay voters supported McCain and that number rose to 31% in the midterms.  In 2004 -- the year Bush ran on opposition to gay marriage -- he still managed 23%.  And lets also not forget all the closeted gays who are Republican elected officials, not counted in these data.  http://voices.washingtonpost.com/...

              This wasn't a dig at any kind of entire community, at all.  Roughly one in four self-identified gays and lesbians will apparently vote Republican come hell or high water.  Since they're almost certainly not doing so on the basis of social issues, and hardly anyone votes on the basis of foreign policy (except maybe part of the 22% of Jews who voted for McCain) that leaves economic ones.  

               

              "This world demands the qualities of youth: not a time of life but a state of mind[.]" -- Robert F. Kennedy

              by Loge on Mon Oct 10, 2011 at 09:21:40 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  It's not a dig, it's sociology. (0+ / 0-)

              People will put up with a lot of guff to maximize their material interests.  Feel free to put Jews in there instead.  As to what constitutes "plenty," I'd say it's more than a few.

              But nobody's buying flowers from the flower lady.

              by Rich in PA on Mon Oct 10, 2011 at 09:22:42 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  why would they turn blue? (0+ / 0-)

      Mormons are social conservatives.

  •  This is a failure of imagination, really (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    milton333

    It's easy enough to say, "look, I'm in my denomination for a reason, which is that I think it's the right set of beliefs...so to some extent I think everyone else is wrong and I'm sure they feel the same way about my denomination. Mitt's Mormonism is no different than anyone else's.  We're not running to be president of a seminary."

    Only Huntsman has enough sense to say that, and he's a Mormon already.

    But nobody's buying flowers from the flower lady.

    by Rich in PA on Mon Oct 10, 2011 at 08:18:23 AM PDT

  •  Didn't do Perry any good (0+ / 0-)

    at the VVS.  If he isn't going to crack double figures with these people, the attack on Romney from his right flank is cut off.  

    I suppose the whole Gardasil thing and occasional bursts of near-sanity on immigration blew up in his face, but the fact is, he did worse than Rick Santorum.  

    "This world demands the qualities of youth: not a time of life but a state of mind[.]" -- Robert F. Kennedy

    by Loge on Mon Oct 10, 2011 at 08:19:35 AM PDT

  •  They are ALL cults (1+ / 0-)

    And I find their pitiful attempts to exclude each other so pathetic they are not even laughable anymore.

    These little "evangelical" twits claim Catholicism is a cult.  Well, yes, it is, but it is just older and bigger than the cult that each one of these idiots themselves leads.  Same with Mormonism.

    Alanis Morrisette made this point beautifully in her song "Baba".  And of course Bill Maher made a movie about it.  Alas, much of America is in the grip of these primitives.

    -9.00, -5.85
    If only stupidity were painful...

    by Wintermute on Mon Oct 10, 2011 at 08:36:47 AM PDT

  •  For a tutorial on the intollerant Right (0+ / 0-)

    If you can stomach it, there is a fascinating dialog over on the Religious Fanatic site known as RedShit.  

    The Reverend Jeffress And Mormons

    http://www.redstate.com/...

    If there ever was a reason to question the intolerance of the Far Right so called Christians that have taken over the Republican party, the comments alone will convince the reader of how dangerous these fools really are.

  •  Totally Out of Line (0+ / 0-)

    Since we have separation of Church and State, this matter  why?

    To me all this does is show how out of touch the tea bagging repubs really are.

    They are not in line with the Constitution or the country.

    •  Common mistake (0+ / 0-)

      brabc1

      It's a common mistake to attribute Christian Taliban behavior like this kerfuffle over Mormonism with the Tea Party. For sure there is an element of that sort of Taliban like behavior in the TP, however it's an uneasy relationship between two forms of Bat Shit thinking.

      Bat Shit One is completely cutting all government, good bad and ugly government without thinking.

      Bat Shit Two is the Christian Taliban effect that comes out of Jesus Land down South.

  •  My noodley goodness is better than yours (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    yg17

    Thus saith the flying linguini monster.

    May the poetry of your life never be beaten into mere prose.

    by Anthony Page aka SecondComing on Mon Oct 10, 2011 at 08:54:57 AM PDT

  •  What do the Libertarians on the ticket say? (0+ / 0-)

    I hate when the Libertarians are left out of these weigh ins.

    •  I don't know why Jed ignored it (0+ / 0-)

      but Ron Paul did respond: http://www.thestatecolumn.com/...

      Speaking to Fox News, Paul argued that Jeffress’ remark was “unnecessary.” Paul went one step further and argued that negative campaigning shouldn’t be the focus of the GOP race. “This whole idea that the most important thing between two candidates right now is the definition of cult, trying to make it sound negative for one person to get the edge over the other – and they are encouraged by others to keep this thing going,” Paul professed.

      Paul also suggested that whether Mormonism is a “cult” or not isn’t the issue that voters care about in the GOP race. “I think liberty is the issue of the day. Our Constitution is the issue of the day. And too much government – that is the issue of the day. It’s not the definition of a cult.”

      While they label this a defense, it sounds more evasive than anything.

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