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Rep. Paul Ryan
Rep. Paul Ryan (Kevin Lamarque/Reuters)
There's no program so popular that Paul Ryan won't try to cut it, and recently at a town hall, he proved that yet again, answering a question about Pell Grants:
LOWE: I come from a very middle-class family and under President Obama, I get $5,500 per year to pay for school, which doesn’t come close to covering all of the funding, but it helps ease the burden. Under your plan, you cut it by 15 percent. I was just curious why you would cut a grant that goes directly to the middle- and lower-class people that need it the most.

RYAN: ‘Cause Pell Grants have become unsustainable. It’s all borrowed money…Look, I worked three jobs to pay off my student loans after college. I didn’t get grants, I got loans, and we need to have a system of viable student loans to be able to do this.

Think Progress takes on the policy side of this:

Ryan justified the GOP’s desire to cut the highly-necessary Pell Grant program by claiming that it costs too much; but the GOP’s budget provides huge tax breaks for the wealthy and corporations which dwarf the cost of preserving the grants. He also claimed that Pell Grants drive tuition inflation, which is a claim he has made before, while pointing to studies that didn’t actually say what he believed they said.

True! Pell Grants are an important program and, as Think Progress further points out, it's telling that in this economy, Ryan's answer to a kid concerned about paying for his education is "take on a whole lot of debt and work three jobs (jobs that aren't actually available)."

But what about Ryan's own experience? While working as a Capitol Hill staffer, Ryan did "moonlight" at "side jobs," according to one profile. But according to another (fawning) profile, he also used government money to help pay for college. Ryan's father passed away when he was 16, and:

With his father’s passing, young Paul collected Social Security benefits until age 18, which he put away for college.

Paul Ryan wants to portray his experience as some kind of typical middle-class struggle that anyone can emulate. That's the basis he offers for condemning $5,500 Pell Grants as "unsustainable" and trying to cut them, adding to the $1 trillion in outstanding student loan debt in the United States and forcing new college graduates already facing high unemployment and falling entry-level wages to enter their adult lives even deeper in the hole. But he's relied on government money virtually his entire adult life, starting with Social Security that helped pay for college, then working on Capitol Hill before being elected to Congress at 28.

Originally posted to Daily Kos Labor on Fri Oct 21, 2011 at 09:03 AM PDT.

Also republished by ClassWarfare Newsletter: WallStreet VS Working Class Global Occupy movement and Daily Kos.

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Comment Preferences

  •  He is such an ass, such a pig. (14+ / 0-)

    On the other hand, he helps bring the youth vote to Dems.

    Keep talking Paul!

    More jobs equal less debt, even our kids can understand that.

    by TomP on Fri Oct 21, 2011 at 09:05:24 AM PDT

    •  half our country is like this pig (0+ / 0-)

      makes me proud to be an American!

      Jesus told me to tell you that if you believe that Jesus talks to people that you are fucking crazy.

      by Anton Bursch on Sat Oct 22, 2011 at 01:38:49 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Not half at all... (5+ / 0-)

        If it really were half of the American population you wouldn't have so many polls showing that:

        76 percent support increasing the tax rate of those who make more than one million dollars a year...

        67% wanted a public option for health care...

        72% support increasing federal spending for roads, bridges, and schools.

        60% support increasing federal aid to the unemployed...

        and thousands have now massed in OWS demonstrations around the country to say that the system is corrupt and their representatives don't act in their interests any more!

        Those support positions have all been opposed by the Republicans in congress, yet support for them even among the Republican base is high.

        That doesn't sound like half the country is supporting Ryan's agenda.

        •  Goldman Sachs gave the Ryan Budget thumbs down... (0+ / 0-)

          Goldman Sachs doesn't give a shit about anything but making money... greed owes allegiance to neither party... it just buys them as often as possible!

          Goldman Sachs issued a confidential report to its investors on the Ryan Budget and it leaked out:

          Goldman Sachs: House House Spending Cuts Will Hurt Economic Growth

          ABC News’ Jonathan Karl reports:

          A confidential new report prepared by Goldman Sachs for its clients says spending cuts passed by the House of Representatives last week would be a drag on the economy, cutting economic growth by about two percent of GDP.

          “Under the House passed spending bill [which cut spending by $61 billion],” says the report, which was obtained by ABC News, “the drag on GDP growth from federal fiscal policy would increase by 1.5pp to 2pp in Q2 and Q3 compared with current law.”

          The report, which is signed by Goldman economist Alec Phillips, goes on to predict that the House-passed bill is unlikely to become law because it won’t pass the Senate and, in any case, the president threatened to veto it.

          Every poll shows that Americans all support job growth as the number one priority... yet the rethuglicans keep demanding cuts... which will shrink the GDP and cost jobs.

          Of course the House has passed many "job creating anti-abortion acts" Ha!

      •  Nah. He's unusually shit-headed. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Matt Z
    •  If he took out loans, doesn't that mean ... (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      TofG, AZphilosopher, NoMoreLies

      he went into DEBT and spent money he DIDN'T ACTUALLY HAVE?

      I seem to recall hearing that that was the WORST THING EVAH and that salt-of-the-earth private citizens NEVER did that.

      Fight until we win. Then we can begin arguing about the details. - Kwickkick (RIP) 2009

      by RickMassimo on Sat Oct 22, 2011 at 02:17:50 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  With 3 jobs, where's the time for college? (6+ / 0-)

    “We have no alternative but to protest. For many years we have shown an amazing patience. But we come here tonight to be saved from that patience that makes us patient with anything less than freedom and justice.” MLK, Montgomery, 12/5/55

    by Rogneid on Fri Oct 21, 2011 at 09:09:42 AM PDT

  •  Social Security! (10+ / 0-)

    What that comment leaves out is that his family was so wealthy that they put away the SS benefits he got during high school in order to save them for his college years. And then of course he kept getting them during college.

    But No Soup for You, loser middle class kids. Take out money you can't pay back, so you can default and unleash the next round of economic chaos. MUCH better plan.

    •  I wish someone would bust Ryan on this on camera (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      and turn it into an ad to run in his home district.

    •  Doubt it (0+ / 0-)
      And then of course he kept getting them during college

      I thought so too, it helped Mr. Nappe enormously with his college costs. However, Ryan was not in college yet when that benefit was cut (1980's)

      The final version of the legislation concerning student benefits consisted of the following provisions:

      •Benefits paid to post-secondary students ages 18-21 are to be phased-out;
      •The phase-out is to be completed by April 1985;
      •Benefits to elementary and/or secondary school students older than 18, are to end in August 1982;
      •Current post-secondary students, or those entering school before May 1982, may continue to receive benefits until April 1985, except that their benefit amount will be reduced 25% each year starting in September 1982;
      •During the phase-out students will not receive COLA increases:
      •During the phase-out student benefits will not be payable during May through August.

      from a bright young conservative: “I’m watching my first GOP debate…and WE SOUND LIKE CRAZY PEOPLE!!!!”

      by Catte Nappe on Fri Oct 21, 2011 at 11:18:38 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Oh for god's sake (6+ / 0-)

    His family owns a huge construction empire:

    He may have worked several jobs and put his SS benefits he inherited away for a college fund, but I sincerely doubt that he did so out of need. If Paul Ryan ever one day in his life worried about his or his family's financial security I'd be fucking shocked.

    I'll take his point one step further: Hey, Paul! I'll happily work my way through college if you promise to give me half ownership of Ryan Central when I'm done. I mean if you're the perfect example, we should really attempt to recreate the parallels as closely as possible...

    •  yeah (6+ / 0-)

      he probably didn't qualify for grants because his family was rich.  boo hoo. someone should really get the facts on this and  if the reality is that he couldn't get grants, or maybe that he didn't have student loans, they should go after him for that.

      I just read the New Yorker article on Darrel Issa. I highly recommend checking these cats back story after reading about that guy.  

      "I'll hold my nose and vote but I won't hold my nose and canvass or call or donate." Some Dkos Comment

      by onemadson on Sat Oct 22, 2011 at 01:06:35 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  yo, Rep. Ryan, you know what's unsustainable? (5+ / 0-)

    tax breaks for the wealthiest Americans and corporations ... we can't afford to pay for those anymore ...

    There are moments when the body is as numinous as words, days that are the good flesh continuing. -- Robert Hass

    by srkp23 on Fri Oct 21, 2011 at 09:19:52 AM PDT

    •  exactly.... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      NoMoreLies, Matt Z

      ...these folks have the strangest ideas about what "unsustainable" means.

      It is unsustainable to think that we can continue on where only the 1% can afford to send their children to college.

      Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

      by a gilas girl on Sat Oct 22, 2011 at 01:51:51 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •   Ryan got Social Security survivors benefits (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Quasimodal, Supavash, KibbutzAmiad

    When his is father died, which he saved and used in college. Ryan is full of sh*t.

    •  Ryan is a twerp (0+ / 0-)

      He's a small minded person who thinks that he is "hot stuff".  Just another lying gop SOB.

      "The real wealth of a nation consists of the contributions of its people and nature." -- Rianne Eisler

      by noofsh on Sat Oct 22, 2011 at 03:35:26 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  he's a vile little man (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Supavash, joe wobblie

    The combination of basset hound good looks and endless contempt for others is a real lightening rod.  Unfortunately, I think that contempt gains him as many votes as it costs him..."identify with me as I kick others in the face" is a historically winning proposition.  We have a short outrage peice when it happens, but the right is just going "yes!  yes!"

    ...j'ai découvert que tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos dans une chambre.

    by jessical on Fri Oct 21, 2011 at 09:23:35 AM PDT

  •  In spite of his "hard-earned" college education, (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    stcroix cheesehead

    Paul Ryan seems to know very little about ethics or compassion or fairness.

    He who is carried away by his own importance seldom has far to walk back.

    by StateOfGrace on Fri Oct 21, 2011 at 09:23:46 AM PDT

  •  If slashing spending was a good idea (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    this would not be one of the things to cut.

  •  He worked as a "marketing consultant' (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    For the construction company founded by his great-grandfather. Period. Then he got elected to Congress.

  •  just by way of comparision (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    wenchacha, nchristine

    We spent $36.6 billion on Pell Grants in 2011 (which has more than doubled in the last three years)

    That is 8 1/2 days of funding the military-terrorism industrial complex.

    Why does no one ever ask these charlatans in Washington that we obviously have the money, you are choosing to spend it on something else.  

  •  They are all hypocrites. (0+ / 0-)
  •  The trouble with Federal aid to Colleges. (0+ / 0-)

    The influx of money gives colleges an incentive to raise tuition.

    Why do we think that college tuition is growing faster than inflation, faster than wages, and faster than professors' salaries?

    Pell Grants are OK, because the money goes mostly to poor kids. But the cost of college is not going to fall until middle-class families simply refuse to pay. That refusal will never come as long as:

    1) There are massive loans available.
    2) The amount of aid increases as tuition increases.

    There are two strong alternatives to expensive colleges. State schools and Community colleges are much more affordable. Those who chose leafy private colleges with pretty campuses should pay more.

    •  Have you priced those "affordable" state schools? (3+ / 0-)

      I teach at one, which has a very high proportion of first-generation college students.

      Some of the students break my heart, the troubles that they have getting the money to pay.

      We are wasting some of the most valuable resources of our nation - our young.

      Mere passive citizenship is not enough. Men must be aggressive for what is right if government is to be saved from men who are aggressive for what is wrong. - Robert M. LaFollette

      by stcroix cheesehead on Fri Oct 21, 2011 at 10:29:48 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  State schools ARE expensive colleges now (3+ / 0-)

      I'll give you an example I know first hand: University of Minnesota - Twin Cities. It's the quintessential state land-grant University. Undergraduate tuition and fees total around $11,000/year. The cheapest room and board are another $7,000 if you live on campus. Add in books and other living expenses and you're at a nice round $20,000/year for a 'more affordable' state school.

      At least here in Minnesota, the primary reason for tuition price increases is an ongoing drop in state support for higher education. From when the University was founded in the 1870s until about five years ago, the state provided the majority of the school's funding. Now, students and families provide the majority of the school's revenue through tuition payments.

      Higher education has been transformed from a public good to a private commodity.

      Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read. - Groucho Marx

      by Joe Bob on Sat Oct 22, 2011 at 02:16:29 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Which is why I put "affordable" in quotes above. (0+ / 0-)

        My daughter applied last year, I think the total was more like $23,000/year.

        If you are a kid of a single unemployed parent, YOU CANNOT AFFORD THIS. There is not enough federal + state aid, including loans. You will have to get private loans, and you won't get private loans because of your financial situation.

        Mere passive citizenship is not enough. Men must be aggressive for what is right if government is to be saved from men who are aggressive for what is wrong. - Robert M. LaFollette

        by stcroix cheesehead on Sat Oct 22, 2011 at 02:41:14 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Ironically, private schools can be more affordable (0+ / 0-)

          For example, Harvard and Yale have limited the amount that families with gross incomes under $100,000 have to pay (for Yale, under ~$60,000, the parent contribution is zero), and do not require undergrads to take out loans.

          We don't want our country back, we want our country FORWARD. --Eclectablog

          by Samer on Sat Oct 22, 2011 at 04:39:31 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Don't buy the tuition inflation meme (0+ / 0-)

      Tuition is rising because of several factors that have nothing to do with the availability of loans and pell grants. They're rising because funding is being slashed and schools are trying to maintain their need-blind admissions policies, but those are soon to become a thing of the past.

      Tuition inflation due to gov't support is a rightwing meme.

      There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

      by upstate NY on Sat Oct 22, 2011 at 05:15:43 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  unsustainable? (0+ / 0-)

    Too painful to slough through the whole WIPR story.  Paul Ryan's bio reads like right-wing PR boiler plate.  And then it hit me...

    Practically every right-wing spokesperson reads like a Horatio Alger story.  The Republican party consists almost entirely of characters whose successes result from turning shill for the privileged classes.

    For Bickford Koch Brother types, this arrangement delivers a better return on their business of corrupting the government.  As a side benefit, the mouthpieces become examples of self-reliant success, which otherwise has become practically impossible.  Better still, Republicans become a symbol of a rising working class.  (Sorry for the literary metaphors, but a Potemkin Village is the only thing that comes to mind.)

    It should be noted that Paul Ryan, Michelle Bachman, Clarence Thomas, et al are all indirect beneficiaries when they're paid to oppose liberal largess.  At this rate, they too are unsustainable.

  •  Pells could be restricted to public schools... (0+ / 0-) use the program more strategically. I see no reason for a low income applicant (i.e., Pell qualified) to consider a more expensive private school (i.e., also seek student loans).  But overall I'd like to see more strategic use of more Pell funds producing more grads, more grads from low income families, all with no/less outstanding loans.

    Ryan's proposals are all shallow, stale, retrogressive, and unimaginative.

    Eliminate the Bush tax cuts Eliminate Afghan and Iraq wars Do these things first before considering any cuts

    by kck on Fri Oct 21, 2011 at 10:32:42 AM PDT

    •  Often the private schools (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Rube Goldberg

      have considerably more access to financial aid. In my particular circumstance, I would have ended up paying more at a state school.

      Fry, don't be a hero! It's not covered by our health plan!

      by elfling on Sat Oct 22, 2011 at 04:05:47 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Restricted Pell Grants (0+ / 0-)

      And we should do this to keep the common trash out of the private schools so we don't infect the elite gene pools?

      •  POS comment (0+ / 0-)

        We should do this, where and when it makes sense, to keep the common investments of public funds (e.g., public schools, colleges, and tuition grants) in the hands of the public and not siphoned off into for profit schools.

        Eliminate the Bush tax cuts Eliminate Afghan and Iraq wars Do these things first before considering any cuts

        by kck on Sun Oct 23, 2011 at 01:23:13 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  i guess i'll skip looking for one job, and go find (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    OldDragon, AnnieR

    three to tide me over...what a douchebag

    where are these three jobs per student he's talking about?

    Kick a "job creator" in the balls today!

    by memofromturner on Fri Oct 21, 2011 at 12:23:17 PM PDT

  •   _ Little Miss Selfish _ (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    OldDragon, Matt Z

       The vicious, swinistic Greed of this wiener Wienermobile driver is abysmal.
       He is the quintessential Conservative cloaca!
       Fortunately males of his lineage all seem to die of heart attacks in their fifties...
      _ Charon awaits thee, Congressman Paul ryan _

  •  One more reason (4+ / 0-)

    that I am ashamed of the politicians that have been elected from Wisconsin.  Why on earth do all of the crazies land here?  And worse--get ELECTED!  I have always been a proud independent voter, but not any more--I will only vote AGAINST Repugs for the rest of my life, which I hope will be a very long time.

    •  Your training is now complete, young padawan (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Matt Z

      Just make sure you use the force for good - Join your local Democratic Party. Work and vote for Democrats.

      Mere passive citizenship is not enough. Men must be aggressive for what is right if government is to be saved from men who are aggressive for what is wrong. - Robert M. LaFollette

      by stcroix cheesehead on Sat Oct 22, 2011 at 02:43:40 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  It make you wonder if they future they (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    AnnieR, googie, mmacdDE, duufus, Matt Z

    see for our children is one of indentured servitude. These Republicans long for the times Dickens wrote about.

    •  Chances are they'll make out ok. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      The rest of us, not so sure.  I'd like to see Democratic organizations really target Ryan and Cantor.  They epitomize the exact opposite of public service.

      "They love the founding fathers so much they will destroy everything they created and remake it in Rush Limbaughs image." MinistryofTruth, 9/29/11

      by AnnieR on Sat Oct 22, 2011 at 01:14:56 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  The Road to Hell... (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    AnnieR, KJG52, awshucks101, Matt Z

    is what should have been put on the cover of that odious plan.

  •  I'd love to hear how my area's... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    KJG52, NoMoreLies

    ...Taliban-loving representative, Pete Sessions, TX-32, continues to justify his support for the financially and morally irresponsible Ryan plan of gutting Pell Grants, Medicare, and Social Security (among other things), while preserving budget-busting tax cuts for the wealthiest 1 percent. Someone needs to force Republicans like Ryan and Sessions to defend themselves without resorting to code phrases like "job creators" to describe what the richest 1 percent aren't.

    "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." --Gandhi

    by alaprst on Sat Oct 22, 2011 at 01:13:47 PM PDT

  •  could someone puhleez (0+ / 0-)

    ask him...with 9 applicants for every vacancy...where would one find one job...much less 3.  The man is a moron.  I would suggest he stop reading Ayn Rand and switch to the "Sermon on the Mount."

    It's the Supreme Court Stupid!!!

    by regis on Sat Oct 22, 2011 at 01:15:05 PM PDT

  •  I always wondered what became of Eddie Munster... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    by Impolitics on Sat Oct 22, 2011 at 01:15:14 PM PDT

  •  A question. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    With his father’s passing, young Paul collected Social Security benefits until age 18, which he put away for college.

         Don't these SS benefits(for a deceased parent) continue after 18 as long as one is attending school?

    For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. H. L. Mencken

    by irate on Sat Oct 22, 2011 at 01:15:33 PM PDT

  •  It's always "I got mine" and the rest of you (6+ / 0-)

    can f**k off.  Public funds (banked social security benefits, college loans) helped Ryan get through all of college (and we have no idea if Miami University, which has a decent endowment, helped Ryan any further), and then, since you don't really need an advanced degree to work on Capitol Hill or in a congressman's field office, Ryan's life has been funded by the public or by the Republican Party.  No word on whether any of his siblings had Pell Grants, but for whoever said "pig" above, clear example of a pig at the trough here.

    I hope we have a good candidate in his district .

    All it takes is security in your own civil rights to make you complacent.

    by Dave in Northridge on Sat Oct 22, 2011 at 01:16:24 PM PDT

  •  War on Poverty, Republican style, destroy the poor (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    CTPatriot, Jeff Y, NoMoreLies, Matt Z

    Unemployed, tough, no unemployment insurance for you, get a job; need to eat, tough, no Foodstamps for you, it's unsustainable; want to go to college, tough, no Pell Grants for you, also unsustainable... What is truly unsustainable is the status quo which puts flannel mouthed fools in charge of government to the detriment of the American people. When will we arise and throw these craven, heartless, ignorant, selfish, authoritarian reactionaries out of office?  

    "Intelligence is quickness in seeing things as they are..." George Santayana

    by KJG52 on Sat Oct 22, 2011 at 01:17:34 PM PDT

  •  Paul Ryan should work three jobs (6+ / 0-)

    to support what he does in Congress. And no health care or retirement benefits for him either! He's not worth what we're paying him.

    "The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. Now do you begin to understand me?" ~Orwell, "1984"

    by Lily O Lady on Sat Oct 22, 2011 at 01:22:40 PM PDT

  •  Doesn't he want to slash loans too? (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Marjmar, Jeff Y, NoMoreLies, Matt Z

    I thought he wanted to scale back on those loans with affordable interest rates that he admits he took advantage of....

    Ryan is a fervent ally of the college lending industry. In 2007, he was one of only 71 Republicans to vote against the College Student Relief Act, which would have cut the interest rate on many student loans, including the FFEL program, in half. Inside Higher Ed notedthat the bill would cut “deeply and directly into lenders' profits.” The bill passed the House 356-71, but stalled in the Senate.

    It's not a culture of dependence; it's a culture of interdependence.

    by NCJan on Sat Oct 22, 2011 at 01:23:04 PM PDT

  •  Golden Boy Ryan (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Marjmar, skillet, duufus, Matt Z

    lost all credibility when he came out with his 'Kill Medicare/Give the Rich Another Tax Cut' bill.

    "He's the one, who likes all our pretty songs. And he likes to sing along. And he likes to shoot his gun. But he knows not what it means" - Kurt Cobain

    by Jeff Y on Sat Oct 22, 2011 at 01:24:05 PM PDT

  •  Hypocrisy from Paul Ryan! (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Marjmar, Jeff Y, Matt Z

    I'll alert the media.

    My forthcoming book Obama's America: A Transformative Vision of Our National Identity will be published in Summer 2012 by Potomac Books.

    by Ian Reifowitz on Sat Oct 22, 2011 at 01:24:52 PM PDT

  •  Who are the sociopaths who elected this trash? (0+ / 0-)

    Is anyone from his district? Are they at all like him?

  •  Picking these pricks off is gonna be like an old (0+ / 0-)

    McTurtle Turkey Shoot.........Hey BiPM!.........your other left soldier......Sheesh......some people.

    •  and now a word from our sponsor.....GOT GOUT?.... (0+ / 0-)

      er uh....No.......Yeah ya do.......Buy our fabulous 'Gout Removal Medicine' today......course...ya rilly should read the fine print....Can't read?...Mo bettah.....what's your credit card number?

  •  Ryan writ small... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    zaka1, TofG, NoMoreLies

    From the Michicgan Education Association:

    Same demented practices at the local and State level as Janesville's little Munster would have at the Federal level.

    "The most potent weapon in the hands of the oppressor is the mind of the oppressed." ~ Steven Biko

    by Marjmar on Sat Oct 22, 2011 at 01:28:13 PM PDT

  •  Ryan is unsustainable. n/t (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JC from IA, zaka1, NoMoreLies, Matt Z

    People to Wall Street: "LET OUR MONEY GO"

    by hannah on Sat Oct 22, 2011 at 01:30:52 PM PDT

  •  Paul Ryan (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    duufus, Matt Z

    He is out to satisfy the requests of his bosses. No, not Cantor and Boehner, the Koch Brothers...

  •  Ryan (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    Was born with a silver foot in his mouth.  I guarantee he didn't work his way through Miami University.

    If I was a communist, rich men would fear me...And the opposite applies. The history of all hitherto existing society is the history of class struggles.

    by stewarjt on Sat Oct 22, 2011 at 01:40:06 PM PDT

  •  How Was Ryan (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    zaka1, TofG

    From Janesville, WI, able to afford out of state tuition to Miami U of Ohio?

    If I was a communist, rich men would fear me...And the opposite applies. The history of all hitherto existing society is the history of class struggles.

    by stewarjt on Sat Oct 22, 2011 at 01:43:06 PM PDT

  •  Is he this clueless? (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    zaka1, Blicero, Joe Bob, elfling, Matt Z

    I worked a lot of jobs in college, too, but they were unpaid internships. I majored in journalism and communications, and over the course of four years, I held a few p.r. internships, an internship at an advertising agency (and yes, real ad agencies are exactly like what you see on "Mad Men," if you take subtract all the sex and interesting people), and an internship as a reporter.

    I got paid in experience!

    Pell Grants, in addition to work-study and loans, helped ease the burden.

    But, yes, Mr. Ryan, let's keep sticking it to those just starting out. That makes a lot of sense.

    How about I believe in the unlucky ones?

    by BenderRodriguez on Sat Oct 22, 2011 at 01:43:12 PM PDT

  •  more research on family would be good idea (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    zaka1, DamselleFly, TofG, Matt Z

    I don't think he was without resources.

    What would Jesus do? Whip the exploiters out of the temple!

    by jhannon on Sat Oct 22, 2011 at 01:44:34 PM PDT

  •  The only real question about Paul Ryan, (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    zaka1, duufus, Matt Z

    it seems to me, is why anyone has ever mistaken him for a serious person.  Particularly the national media, which should know better.

    I have yet to hear one original idea come out of the guy's facehole.  Not one.  Even his tax policies are straight out of 1920s US history.

    Is this what is supposed to pass for leadership in the next generation?

  •  "Privilege, thy name is... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:


    Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

    by a gilas girl on Sat Oct 22, 2011 at 01:53:32 PM PDT

  •  Just exactly how much SS payments (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    did Ryan receive to help pay for college? It would be good if someone asked him that on camera.

    "Even in the valley of the shadow of death, two and two do not make six." Leo Tolstoy

    by Miss Pip on Sat Oct 22, 2011 at 01:53:48 PM PDT

  •  Lets be sure we don't do anything... (0+ / 0-) lower the cost of a higher education. I was able to work my way through college. It simply costs too much now.

  •  interesting subjects today (0+ / 0-)

    let's see, ryan says we can't help you go to college, so you can be a productive member of our society, and feed yourselves; and sessions says that we can't feed you: the poor, under-educated scum that you are...i'll admit, i've not taken the Wall St. protesters that seriously, but i'm thinking that there is more to the story...i haven't been on kos since feb; it's good to be back

    Show me a politician that doesn't want to gain, and/or hold onto power, and I'll show you one who can't get elected.

    by HarryParatestis on Sat Oct 22, 2011 at 01:56:28 PM PDT

  •  No wonder the GOP (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TofG, NoMoreLies, Matt Z

    wants to suppress the college student vote.

  •  what a jackass (14+ / 0-)

    I graduated from college the same year, 1992, as Ryan. You don't have to be a man of the people to know that what worked for a college graduate in '92 is a different world from what people face today.

    In the early '90s I thought it was pretty incredible that I had $12,000 in student loan debt. And that was from a private college. Today, people are graduating from state university with an average student loan debt of $18,000. It's common for undergrads to have debt double that or higher, all for a 4-year BA or BS.

    Back when I was borrowing money for school, I could get all of what I needed through government-backed Guaranteed Student Loans. Now, it's common for students to max out what they can borrow through Direct Loans and have to turn to private lenders to bridge the gap, at interest rates often well above 10%. I have always considered myself a pretty aware person, but awhile ago when I found out that my nephew was paying Sallie Mae 13% for a student loan I was shocked.

    Of course, good luck getting Ryan to acknowledge the fact that the reason college is so much more expensive is that over the past 10-15 state support for higher ed has fallen through the floor. Meanwhile, federal grant and loan programs have drastically lagged the price escalation of college.

    Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read. - Groucho Marx

    by Joe Bob on Sat Oct 22, 2011 at 02:04:46 PM PDT

  •  He's not that far away, (0+ / 0-)

    I could spend some time in Janesville, if there's a Dem that is willing to take the risk and challenge him. Are there any poll numbers out on his vulnerability/impregnability?

  •  Pell Grants are an investment (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TofG, AZphilosopher, elfling

    The more students that go to college, the better jobs they can get.

    The better the job, the more taxes they pay, plus less reliance on public assistance.

    How many of our current economic woes can be attributed to young people just out of college saddled with so much debt they can't rent an apartment or buy furniture, much less get married and start a family like their parents did? Maybe Rick Santorum should be more concerned about that instead of availability of contraception.

    Now to try to end the wars we ask our gay and straight soldiers to fight. -- Chris Hayes (modified)

    by Cali Scribe on Sat Oct 22, 2011 at 02:10:12 PM PDT

  •  How furious does this make me? (4+ / 0-)

    The fact is that my father, who was a page in the senate as a 15  year old, who served Stennis in Mississippi after his father died that same year, went into the Navy at 17 and served his country, then came back to Auburn on the GI bill looking for that promised American Dream.

    He found the dream, worked his entire life to achieve it, and ended up bankrupt after my mother died of cancer at age 39 while my father was not able to provide insurance for her. There was none for him.

    Even though he'd served his country not once but twice, even though he'd crouched in a ditch in the Nevada Desert and died of cancer at 67, even though he served his community, his church, his daughters and his hometown every day of his life. As an expat he served his fellow soldiers, helped them file for SS benefits, and built a new house for his adopted family in Heredia.

    He could not provide any assistance for his daughters. He could not provide equity, nor stability, because he was too busy trying to get his country to give him the benefits that were due a soldier who had served his country and was dying because of it.

    Yeah, it pisses me off a bit. Every time I went back to school, another pin would come out from the legs of my own table, and another person would tell me to get a  job, and another mass of baby boomers would be in the same fucking line I was in.

    And being female I just did what I could do and tried to hold my children close. I'm over all that. I'm now ready to roll. Newt, bring it on. I was there in Marietta when you started this pissing contest with your talking points emails. I'm over the whole game.

    These damn robo calls that come into this house where a 96 year old registered republican lives (she has had a stroke and I am house sitting) don't know what hit them. I admit I get a bit more pissed than I should but if you could see the mail she gets, you'd understand what they are doing.

    I am always in danger of getting more riled up than I should when I've been silent for so long. If I am doing that now, please let me know...

    I can do everything but earn a living.

    by alabamaliberal on Sat Oct 22, 2011 at 02:13:11 PM PDT

  •  asdf (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    elfling, NoMoreLies

    So - let me see now:

    1. Number of college graduates in the United States: 42 million

    2. Number of jobs required for each to work '3 jobs' to pay off debt: 126 million

    3. Number of ALL jobs available (including those for non-college graduates): "According to the Labor Department’s latest numbers, from July, only 2.4 million full-time permanent jobs were open, "

    You are truly an asshole of epic proportions, Mr, Ryan.

    Sadly, everything Communism said about itself was a lie. Even more sadly,, everything Communism said about Capitalism was the truth.

    by GayIthacan on Sat Oct 22, 2011 at 02:14:41 PM PDT

  •  Douchebag trying (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TofG, peptabysmal

    To be a bigger douchebag than the other repug douchebags.

    It is a close race

  •  just popping up from my 90 hour work week... (6+ / 0-) say:


    back to work now.

    The bear and the rabbit will never agree on how dangerous a dog is.

    by fromer on Sat Oct 22, 2011 at 02:27:05 PM PDT

  •  He drove a Wienermobile for Oscar Mayer (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    stcroix cheesehead

    while attending college.

    He comes from a wealthy family and after graduation from college worked as a "marketing consultant to an earth-moving company run by a branch of his family," according to Wikepedia.

    Does anyone have more information? I believe his wife's family holds oil leases and Ryan himeself is worth $20 million.

    The "wienermobile" invites some interesting comments, even if you don't care for pure "dick" jokes.

  •  Aside from Ron Paul... (0+ / 0-)

    When's the last time you heard any GOP elected official in Washington describe our decades-long wars or military/weaponry spending in general "unsustainable"?

  •  Should increase Pell grants (0+ / 0-)

    Check out The Contract for College: A Policy Proposal To Increase College Access and Affordability:
    Won't happen while we have a GOP majority that wants endless tax cuts and $700 billion a year military spending, but excessive student loan debt is big issue among younger OWS protestors and posters on We are the 99 Percent:

  •  Exactly what three jobs would they get? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    NoMoreLies, Matt Z

    Can count dracula ryan explain that?  It's hard to find even one job.  What a twerp!  Donate to Rob Zerban and get rid of this asshole.

    "The real wealth of a nation consists of the contributions of its people and nature." -- Rianne Eisler

    by noofsh on Sat Oct 22, 2011 at 03:33:24 PM PDT

  •  GOP = the party of the 1% -eom- (0+ / 0-)

    "The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously." -- Hubert H. Humphrey

    by Candide08 on Sat Oct 22, 2011 at 03:34:38 PM PDT

  •  Shorter Paul Ryan. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    NoMoreLies, isewquilts2, Matt Z

    If I didn't get something, neither, by God, will you.

    Inspiration is hard to come by. You have to take it where you find it. --- Bob Dylan.

    by figbash on Sat Oct 22, 2011 at 03:36:42 PM PDT

  •  Jeff Sessions goes after Food Stamps, (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Matt Z

    Ryan goes after Pell Grants.

    The greed of these heartless bastards knows no limit.

  •  And when he went to college... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    NoMoreLies, Matt Z

    ...cost of tuition and books and housing and all the other little things like food were a LOT less than they are now.

    "With his father’s passing, young Paul collected Social Security benefits until age 18, which he put away for college."

    That's great.  How many other people are in the same sad situation?  Certainly wasn't my situation when I went to college.  I had to borrow everything and still had to work 20 hours a week.  

    And I lived in a 16 foot trailer for $89 a month.  Try to do the same now.  Rents are 10 times that much.  Tuition and fees are 100 times as much as when I went to college.

    I'm so sick of Republican jerks who got lucky and now think that everybody can do the same thing they did.

  •  And I am going to tell him (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Matt Z

    to eat a bag of dicks.

    These people are truly, objectively evil.

    No nation can be great if it allows its elites to loot with impunity and prosecutes its whistleblowers. Geithner is destroying the things that made America great. -- Bill Black, white-collar criminologist & a former senior financial regulator

    by jboxman on Sat Oct 22, 2011 at 03:53:48 PM PDT

  •  I received Pell Grants (0+ / 0-)

    The federal government has had an excellent return on its investment in me and my education over the years.

    Fry, don't be a hero! It's not covered by our health plan!

    by elfling on Sat Oct 22, 2011 at 04:00:30 PM PDT

  •  working three jobs? (0+ / 0-)

    When do you study and go to class?

  •  The ease of access of loans is the problems (0+ / 0-)

    There some strange federal laws that tie tuition hikes to student loans so easy-to-get loans are a big reason why tuition keeps rising so much.

    Honestly, I think half the populace would be better off going to a specific trade school or apprenticeship that trains you for a job that majoring in some random liberal art major while having no real plan for life. They would be much better off later in life with a decent paying job and no student loans. We actually lack Plumbers, electricians(these jobs pay around 45k-50k a few years in) and other specialities. Morticians are always in a shortage and the average salary for that is well over $100k. All you need is a 2-year trade school, not a 4-year degree.

    •  That's a rightwing meme (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      cactusflinthead, Matt Z

      It's just not true.

      Tuition is rising because of cuts in funding.

      If you look at the top of the line, which is cost per student, it is NOT rising faster than inflation. only tuition is rising. This tells you that colleges are holding the line on costs while receiving less subsidy.

      There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

      by upstate NY on Sat Oct 22, 2011 at 05:18:26 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  You really should watch some videos (0+ / 0-)

        On youtube made by the left wing that states that any university that gets public funding or support needs to match tuition with loans to a certain degree. There is legislation that mandates that. And college loans are as easy as heck to get because the loan officer does not take into your account your ability to pay back the loan after graduation.

        Your argument doesn't make any sense either, tuition was going up by 8% a year even before they had to cut funding. Long before that. Even in 2001-2006 when it was good, it was going up just as fast as now. There is actually a federal mandate to match tuition to amount of loans available. Look it up.

        •  They've been cutting funding since the early (0+ / 0-)

          1980s. I know this issue like the back of my hand from doing research, not watching a couple youtube videos made by propagandists.

          Read this:

          There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

          by upstate NY on Sun Oct 23, 2011 at 07:04:23 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Its not just videos (0+ / 0-)

            Its not just videos, I've read a lot of articles too.


            Cutting funding and ease of getting loans are the two main reasons. I don't get my news from dailykos. Kos I realize is just an opinion column and is just as far left as fox news is far right, not represenative for the American centered and both are heavily bias.

            Problem is a lot of kids really don't know what the hell they are doing in college and don't belong there. Most cases when a kid drops out, its not due to lack of money.

            •  In the extensive study I linked to in my (0+ / 0-)

              diary, there is absolutely nothing correlating loans to rise in tuition. Why? Because the cost per student hasn't risen above inflation. If school costs aren't rising, then you need to tell me precisely what impact loans are having. Tuition is rising, but tuition is very different from actual cost.

              Let me put it this way. When I was in college in the 1980s, the cap for subsidized student loans was $2.75k. Now it's $5.3k. That's not a huge increase over the last 25 years. To argue that this 100% increase over 20 years has lead to a 250% increase in tuition is kind of like arguing that providing universities with research money has also driven up tuition. But we can't confuse revenue with what a school charges when the actual cost of education tracks much much closer to the increase in student loans over that period, which itself tracks closer to inflation.

              At 3% inflation over 25 years, you get a 100% increase. That correlates to the rise in loans and the actual cost of education.

              The outlier is tuition which has risen much faster.

              There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

              by upstate NY on Sun Oct 23, 2011 at 01:52:19 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Its not the subsidized ones (0+ / 0-)

                Its the private un-subsidized ones that are as easy as crap to get that are driving the costs up. Among other factors, it gives schools the impressions that most people can afford it so they can pull back funding and let tuition hikes do the rest. I'm sure your right about state funding having a lot to do with public universities raising costs but private colleges have also spiked up in price.

                Basically, my original post was just to say that a large portion of the people who go to college don't belong there. Thats why the drop-out rate is so high and so many people graduate college not having any sort of plan for life. Most of these people would do better going to a trade school for a specific profession.

                •  On your first point, the study below (0+ / 0-)

                  looks at private colleges and determines that it's the need to maintain a need-blind admissions policy that drove up tuition in the privates, so that they can redistribute it to needy students. The report author says that this extraction for rich students, who pay ABOVE the cost of actual study (i.e. at private schools, tuition is above the actual cost per student) may be unfair because it forces these families to fund poorer students.

                  I agree that loans above gov't loans are ridiculous but I truly wonder how pervasive this is since the national average for student loan debt per student tracks with the cap on subsidized gov't loans (for 4 years). Seems as though those who owe above $25-30k are outliers. You're right that it's a huge problem for those students, but not something that is so large it inflates costs. And, the $23k average number includes debt for grad and professional students in law, medicine, etc.

                  Private schools are addressing these imbalances by moving away from need-blind admission and admitting more rich students, which will allow them to cap tuition increases. 35-40% of all tuition money is redistributed to poor and needy students. Now they won't have to do that, so tuition will be capped.

                  Finally, the USA is tracking higher education in other countries with 65% of high school grads attending college. The USA also has a very high drop out rate for high school. In this world economy, if we drop the number of college attendees to below what others in, say, Europe and Asia are doing, we will have fewer qualified people to take part in a high-tech high-production economy.

                  Even the trades, electricians, plumbing, etc., these are saturated professions as well. They won't grow more lucrative either unless and until we have growth at the top.

                  There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

                  by upstate NY on Sun Oct 23, 2011 at 06:07:30 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Here's the thing about it (0+ / 0-)

                    In some systems like France for example, students are put on a track from when they are very young as to who will go to college, who will go to trade school, etc. Now, this is too restrictive and I don't favor it but you have to realize that 70% of our students are major in some form of Liberal art or soft science. These have few applications in the real world unless you go to graduate school. Graduating a bunch of creative writing majors does not somehow solve our need for more domestic engineers and also doesn't help the unemployment problem. There are many companies now that are hiring for technical roles and having trouble filling those rolls because they can't hire a college grad with a degree in liberal arts because they simply don't have the skills.

                    Most of the people who drop out of college because of non-financial reasons(which would be the majority of them) don't belong in college and should have went to a trade school We actually lack skilled tradesmen like electricians and especially morticians(average pay of $115,000/year) right now but no one wants to go to trade school because its somehow puts you below the level of a college grade even though you will get a decent middle-class job while that creative writing major is likely to be unemployed in this economy. Too many American students are just bent on having a good time in college and therefore choosing the easiest major available instead of long-term planning for the future.

                    •  Just wondering: do you deal with students (0+ / 0-)

                      in the Liberal Arts? I do. Your idea that the Liberal Arts do not provide employable skills is just wrong. It's not only wrong based on my experiences keeping touch with my students, it's wrong based on data retrieved from Payscale which shows that students with English and History degrees earn MORE on average than students with degrees in professional jobs.

                      They are not unemployable. In an information economy, the likes of which we have today, even English majors are trained in research methodologies which serve them well, and are necessary for corporations. I can give you many examples of students without engineering/technical training who ended up heading project teams precisely because computer engineers and such were incapable of doing the necessary research for client relations and also communicating properly with clients.

                      It's quite odd to see people with technical wherewithal trying to organize a project, then relying on the person in the room with the least technical capability to head the project precisely because they have an aesthetic capability that's informed by research.

                      Did you see what Steve Jobs said about the influence of the liberal arts courses he took on his innovations at Apple?

                      There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

                      by upstate NY on Mon Oct 24, 2011 at 05:53:33 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Payscale isn't reliable (0+ / 0-)

                        If you look at the average salaries from actual college stats, engineers are by far the highest. LAS colleges also generally have the lowest % employment and underemployed after college. Sure, there will be some that find good jobs, but its much harder to find a good-paying job when you in a degree that doesn't train you for a specific job. Most English majors I know ended up as teachers and that is just fine because they had a solid life plan. But many of the LAS major didn't have any sort of plan and are now underemployed and doing stuff like working as a waitress(there's nothing wrong with this but it is not using you education). Most all of the highest paying jobs are tech related out of college. An English major simply does not have to skills to design and solve equations to build bridges or design a computer circuit. These are the services that are in demand. The vast majority of people I meet who can't find a job major in a Liberal art or soft science. I hardly ever meet an computer engineer who can't find a job.

                        •  Yes, engineers are the highest paid, but that's (0+ / 0-)

                          just a subset of the skills an economy needs. There are a range of other professions that liberal arts degrees provide a good background for. I was referring to business, finance, majors, etc. The idea that education is about job training is a poor one, IMO. As I said in the Jobs example, the kind of work liberal arts majors are responsible for is valuable on so many levels. Do most English majors become teachers? No. Not true. We track these things. The vast majority do not.

                          Newsflash: we are not only building bridges in this country or designing a computer circuit. We are analyzing information, we're interfacing with customers, even the computer programmer who is involved in creating a customer relations website that allows the customer to access information about the supply-chain is often guided by people from the Liberal Arts overseeing these projects. I have undergrads getting out with $60k jobs in corporations needing literacy and research skills.

                          The vast majority of LA can't find a well paying job? I'm going to call you on that and require proof for such a statement.

                          There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

                          by upstate NY on Mon Oct 24, 2011 at 12:33:28 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  You can argue your points (0+ / 0-)

                            But statistically liberal arts majors have some of the lowest average starting salaries and unemployment rates straight out of college according to their own schools(perhaps its different for the Ivy's leagues but 99% of people don't go to those schools). Many of the kinds of jobs you state don't require any specific sort of major. You just need a more outgoing personality. More and more these days, business are promoting engineers with these types of personalities into management roles instead of hiring from the outside. A business or engineering major can do it just as easily as a liberal arts major and many of them are taking on the roles. But you can't reverse that for engineering majors. A business or liberal arts major cannot in return do the job of an engineer because they don't have the skills.

                            Also I didn't say that the vast majority of Liberal Arts majors can't find decent jobs, I said the vast majority of the unemployed and underemployed(about 20% of the population) that happen to be college graduates tend to come from LAS and its strictly because those majors do not tailor themselves to a specific kind of job and these days companies and looking for people with specific training and skills out of college.

                            Also, look at where the job growth and positionings are opening up in the future. Most of the job growth are either in healthcare(a lot in the IT departments) or technical fields. While these tech companies might hire 1 or 2 project managers from every 10 engineers, that is not the proportion we are graduating people at. We graduate about 6 to 7 LAS for every engineer in our country. These a large disparities in what we need and what our young people learning. These's not enough math and science people and a heavy demand for them and there's an oversupply of other majors.

                          •  Payscale proves you wrong (0+ / 0-)

                            as English earns more on average than the business majors you cite.

                            Business majors and engineers also tend to have very poor literacy skills. They are not drilled in research methodologies and tend to lack the critical skills that produce the kind of sound aesthetic decisions that come from people in design. You say they just hire engineers for management positions and yet my students who got in as writers on the ground floor ended up managing engineering teams without any technical know-how. AND, many of them by the way were trained in internet languages necessary for their jobs and have become experts. It's not as hard as you make it out to be.

                            Show me a study that proves what you're saying. You're making a lot of ungrounded assertions. Where are you finding that most of the out of work are from Liberal Arts majors?

                            There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

                            by upstate NY on Mon Oct 24, 2011 at 01:41:14 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Engineers know how to research (0+ / 0-)

                            Engineers on average take far more science and experimental classes than English or liberal art majors, they are well-versed on how to do scientific research.


                            I'm not in college anymore(graduated 2006) so I don't have access to college stats anymore so I can only come up with internet links(I will try to find some from specific schools) but from that link, the average business salary(both starting and mid-career) are higher than those who major in English by a significant margin.

                            I don't really trust sites like that and payscale because they are self-reported. You keep on referring to payscale, its a very unreliable source as people who can't find a job or are below the mean many times don't report. I looked at actual stats my university had while I was there and LAS on average was the lowest of the major colleges.

                            If your seriously using payscale or students review instead of college stats, your not getting an accurate picture of how much people are making.

                          •  Research in an information economy (0+ / 0-)

                            And I don't buy it anyway. I'm well versed in our databases on campus and there's a world of difference between the elsevier provides to scientists and what it provides to others. The model for scientists is a couple page extract, while in the Humanities we get books. I'm talking about culling information.

                            You link to student - review which is self-reported, and you ignore payscale which is the most reputable source around. As for individual colleges, they don't do a great job but even if they did, you'd only know about individual colleges, not the aggregate. It's the best source around, and it's even used by higher administration in the R1 university where I teach. It's the best source they have, and the school actually pays for their services.

                            There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

                            by upstate NY on Mon Oct 24, 2011 at 06:36:13 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  For sites like payscale and student review (0+ / 0-)

                            For sites like payscale and student review(the site I mentioned), salaries for engineers seem to be about what their college reports as the average while salaries for many LAS and some Business Majors(like economics and marketing) are grossly inflated from what college's average are. Thats the issue with self-reporting sites.

                          •  You really think an average salary for a Lit. (0+ / 0-)

                            major is grossly inflated at $43k? Many of the students that report back to me are higher than that.

                            There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

                            by upstate NY on Mon Oct 24, 2011 at 06:41:58 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I meant 39k (0+ / 0-)

                            That's what PayScale reported. Philosophy is at 39k as well.

                            Coupling ALL the Liberal Arts together is problematic since it includes certain majors which are indeed low-paying (i.e. Art History) but the core Humanities (History, Literature, etc.) do just as well as business and such.

                            There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

                            by upstate NY on Mon Oct 24, 2011 at 06:44:13 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Look at my other reply (0+ / 0-)

                            Your taking the highest ones within Liberal Arts. English itself is rated at a few thousand lower while both Business and International Business are above $40k. I don't know how you got that business majors don't make more.

                          •  To add on (0+ / 0-)

                            Your taking the highest paying majors in liberal arts(lit) and comparing to the lowest ones in business(Plain Business and marketing). Thats not really a fair comparison. If you look at other higher-paying business majors within the school of business like finance, international business, Management information systems(which is not to be confused with IT), Supply Chain management(which happens to be my major), or Industrial Design(ID)(this one is sometimes in the engineering or tech school instead of business), they are all much higher than the highest paying LAS majors.

                            The one that stands out is economics. But econ isn't really an LAS major. Its listed under business school as much as often as in LAS and for some colleges, both schools have them.

                            Besides engineering, Math and hard Science get good salaries, then business, and most LAS majors are at the bottom. Realistically in today's world, that's how it is. There will always be standouts of course, but in terms of salary and employment prospects, engineering, math, science take the cake, then you have business, and then LAS.

                            Payscale is by far not the only source that lists them in that order.

                          •  ??? Economics is always under LAS (0+ / 0-)

                            never under business. Why? Because it incorporates behavioral considerations. Ever read Adam Smith and Marx?

                            But I didn't compare the highest LA majors. I was comparing the most popular ones, and I didn't compare economics or Lit. to the lowest ones. I compared Lit. and History to Business. I don't see where you found me comparing it to marketing. Where did I do that? You're putting words in my mouth. Payscale lists Business pretty clearly.

                            Show me what Payscale chart you're referring to because the one I just checked is vastly different than what you're saying.

                            There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

                            by upstate NY on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 06:24:32 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  English make more in the median (0+ / 0-)

                            and longterm.

                            You're right they make less by $2k entry, but in the median term they make more by $6k.

                            Whether you're calling English and History the "highest ones" or not, you can check at any school and you'll find that over 90% of LA majors are in those fields. Art History and the like are pretty small departments.

                            There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

                            by upstate NY on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 06:21:38 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Look at the NACE report (0+ / 0-)

                            Here's a much more accurate and researched report coming directly from colleges and employers. These are 2009 numbers(I doubt it has changed dramatically in 2 years)


                            Employment rates are much trickier to find online as colleges are hard-pressed to release those

                          •  I'd like to see the report but the link (0+ / 0-)

                            from the page you sent me to is broken.

                            There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

                            by upstate NY on Mon Oct 24, 2011 at 06:41:07 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You can't access it unless your a member (0+ / 0-)

                            I don't think you can access NACE's reports unless your a member. But they come directly from colleges and employers with the self-selection bias from a place like Pay-Scale. Stats from individual colleges and research reports are far and away superior to any self-reporting scale like payscale. And even pay-scale says business majors make more:


                            Major                             Starting    Median

                            International business: $41,600 - $83,700
                            Business: $41,000 - $70,500
                            English: $37,100 - $65,800

                            Engineering pretty much dominates the majors with the highest salaries, followed by math/science, and business.

                            Pretty much every Liberal Arts degree is near the bottom.

                            Even your "most reliable source for salaries" clearly shows that LAS majors make the least on average of anyone.

                            Now, there's something to be said about doing what you love(or in the case of people on my floor at college), partying as much as possible. But there's a price to be paid for it.

                          •  You're just wrong on what PayScale says (0+ / 0-)

                            It has Lit and other LAS making $2k less than Business but then has them making more in the longterm.

                            Which makes sense. LAs are real degrees, Business is a bogus professional degree with little meat to it. Incurious people usually take business classes. Over the long-term, the LAs do better according the Payscale.

                            There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

                            by upstate NY on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 06:26:35 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Actually look at the graph (0+ / 0-)


                            International business starts off higher and the median is about 10k higher than even Lit or Psych. So are supply chain management and other majors in the school of businesses. Econ is in business half the time(it was in business at my school and LAS at the same time) and is group with finance and accounting when done so. Hard sciences like Math and Physics are the only ones in LAS that outpace the higher paying business majors.

                            Lit and Psych are the only two of the non hard sciences in LAS that outpace at median the lowest paying majors in business. Its right there in the link. How do you not see it? I've taken LAS, business, and engineering courses, the only ones that were challenging were the engineering ones. Once I switched from taking engineer courses to taking LAS and Business courses, I went from lower-middle tier of the class to the top of the class. Writing and business management courses as well as Econ and history courses were all grade boosters for me. Don't kid yourself into thinking that kids don't decide on LAS majors because they are easy and they want to have a good time.

                            Also, take a look at an research article that came out in the last few weeks:


                            Young graduates who majored in [b]education and teaching or engineering[/b] were most likely to find a job requiring a college degree, while area studies majors — those who majored in Latin American studies, for example — and [b]humanities majors[/b] were least likely to do so. Among all recent education graduates, 71.1 percent were in jobs that required a college degree; of all area studies majors, the share was 44.7 percent.

                            I can find many more studies and payscales that say the same(basically every piece of actual research done on salaries by major). Even Payscale averages business school majors higher than LAS majors.

                          •  You're twisting things by (0+ / 0-)

                            disaggregating aspects of business and then lumping non-hard science LAS together.

                            The link you give mentioned Area Studies (which is interdisciplinary and not housed in a single department) with the Humanities at large. Yet without a breakdown, I can't know if they're referring to Art History or Literature or History. I'd like to see a breakdown. it would be very telling.

                            As for your taking courses in all the fields, did you take Senior level Liberal Arts courses? It's one thing to take a general requirement, quite another to take an advanced course. I took Math and Physics in school but not at an advanced level.

                            There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

                            by upstate NY on Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 08:30:00 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

    •  Yeah right (0+ / 0-)

      We don't need no stinking liberal arts majors. Nobody to write the news or teach children or make art or any of the other liberal artsy things. Oh hell no, we need to squelch creativity and make everybody get down in the ditch or up in the attic or better yet out there in the morgue. Brilliant!
      Quit being a tool. Thanks.

      Putting on the spectacles of science in expectation of finding an answer to everything looked at signifies inner blindness. -- J(ames) Frank Dobie

      by cactusflinthead on Sat Oct 22, 2011 at 09:25:25 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  we only need some of them (0+ / 0-)

        There's an issue when 70%+ or more of our graduates are major in Liberals arts without any sort of plan of what their going to do next. If you major in something that doesn't directly apply to a job, you better have a plan. Unfortunately for most people on my floor when I went to college, they ended up choosing the easiest major so we can party.

        We don't need 10 artists for every 1 engineer we produce, its just not practical in today's world.

        •  so... (0+ / 0-)

          you are all ready to tell someone to do what You want them to do?
          you have all their plans laid out before them.
          Get stuffed.
          You have no better plan for them than to put them in a puddle of sweat. I am there. I live there and breathe the dust of concrete. It does not serve me well. I would rather have the ten artists selling widgets because that is the gig they could find than ten engineers reckoning the next project that is so utterly removed from reality that it is trashed once it hits the work cycle.
          I have no problem with being a plumber, electrician or any of the other trades available. I would welcome the addition of thinking humans to my own trade, but I will not in any manner condone or approve of the dismissal of the liberal arts as any less than the bean counters.

          Putting on the spectacles of science in expectation of finding an answer to everything looked at signifies inner blindness. -- J(ames) Frank Dobie

          by cactusflinthead on Sat Oct 22, 2011 at 10:35:32 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Your not talking from a realistic standpoint (0+ / 0-)

            If you major in something that isn't applicable, you shouldn't expect to easily find a nice job out of college because you don't have the skills that employers need. Most of the new high-playing jobs are high tech. Your creative writing major isn't going to get your hired at one of these firms because they have almost no use for it.

            You can do whatever you want, but know that if you end up unemployed because you didn't have a solid plan its not the government's or wall street's fall, its your own fault.

            I mean for instance if you major in English, you should have plans to get a master's in education and be a teacher or something. That's actually a legit plan and if more young people actually had those planning skills, we'd all be a lot better off.  No one owes you a job after you graduate. You are entitled to the Pursuit of happiness, you are not entitled to happiness. Whether you are happy or not and your conditions are largely based on the decisions you made earlier in life.

  •  Fuck you, Paul Ryan. Sorry, but this is simple. (4+ / 0-)
  •  He has apparently forgotten what college is like (0+ / 0-)

    He also has apparently forgotten that twenty years ago or thereabouts, when he attended and graduated college, public universities were a damn sight cheaper than they are today. The price of tuition at public universities in my own state has skyrocketed, just in the time since I started my freshman year back in 2004. I can only imagine what it was in the early 90s. It would have been bargain basement prices compared to what students pay now.

    For a man who worries so much about the national debt, Paul Ryan sure doesn't seem to give a tinker's damn about the personal debt of American citizens -- which of the two of them is, I think, the far more serious affliction. He also doesn't seem to have heard of the phrase "debt is slavery." An entire generation of Americans is being enslaved under the burden of debt, beguiled into it with the promise of easy money.

    Telling people to work three jobs? What a joke. Lots of people have trouble enough finding one job. What are we supposed to do, start chopping firewood? Sell quilts? Take up farming? Not that the latter would be a terribly bad idea with the way society is going.

    You really hit the nail on the head. The gall of a man who has lived on government money his whole life cutting off other peoples' government money and telling them to suck it up, take on a mountain of debt, and work three jobs for twenty years to pay it off is a bit fucking rich.

    Tell me, who's running against this clown next year? I'm out of work, but even I could find money to bring this jerk down. I don't care if it's Quixote-tilting-at-windmills impossible. This shit cannot go on like this, and this bastard cannot go around unanswered.

  •  Tuition inflation story has taken hold among (0+ / 0-)

    progressives too. It's a dangerous meme. I wrote a diary a while back proving it false.

    There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

    by upstate NY on Sat Oct 22, 2011 at 05:12:14 PM PDT

  •  what's the back story? (0+ / 0-)

    Was he too dumb to qualify for a Pell Grant or other scholarship?  Was he too lazy to apply for one?  

    Surely his high school guidance counselor, realizing his parental situation, must have given him some tips about where to apply for help.   And his college admissions dean could have been helpful as well.  

  •  From someone who DOES work 3 jobs ... (3+ / 0-)

    I said this earlier when this topic came up in an open thread ...

    I am working three jobs in order to (1) pay common bills like rent and utilities, (2) have decent healthcare that, in case of an emergency, I won't go bankrupt, (3) pay my student loans, and (4) save money for emergencies/retirement/new car/house/whatever it will be needed for.

    The full-time retail job pays for the bills and healthcare plan I receive from my part-time manufacturing job, the manufacturing job pays for my student loans, and my part-time standardized test scoring job gives me the money I can save for the future. I work over 90-hours a week when my seasonal scoring job is in session (I can't have 3 jobs consecutively, I just am not that strong of a person...).

    None of my jobs are "consulting jobs" like Paul Ryan's was.  I do physical labor anywhere between 70 and 90 hours.  I congratulate him if he actually did all three at once (assuming his consultant job required some significant portion of his time).  But working over 40 hours a week should not be the golden standard in America.  If that is the American "dream", then what is the American "nightmare"?

  •  some people compare (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Crazy like a fox

    being forced to work three jobs to slavery.

  •  tells students to work three jobs (0+ / 0-)

    No, he didn't tell students to work three jobs, he said that HE worked three jobs to get himself through college.  

    Fact:  Grants are money which a recipient does not have to pay back while loans are money which is temporarily borrowed and must eventually be returned.

    Why is this so hard to understand?  He makes it pretty clear that the federal government is no longer in a position to be handing out "free" money to students due to this recession.  Never once did he make any statement to the effect that he wants the federal government to leave students stranded, he is saying we can reduce spending and still help by providing affordable student loan options.  THIS would be a perfect example of how the federal government can make a fair compromise but of course, Mr. Obama is much more interested in trying to set Republicans up with goofy bills so he can demonize them without practicing what he preaches.    

    •  excuse me? (0+ / 0-)

      His implication is that if he did it so can everybody else. Come up with some more reichwing talking points please.

      Putting on the spectacles of science in expectation of finding an answer to everything looked at signifies inner blindness. -- J(ames) Frank Dobie

      by cactusflinthead on Sat Oct 22, 2011 at 09:18:57 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  "Free money" (0+ / 0-)

      Pell Grants only cost the government ~$20 million per fiscal year these past few years.  If they can't afford that, then they can't afford all the other "wasteful" expenditures like defense contracts, farm subsidies, and other forms of corporate welfare.

  •  Actually, Ryan probably got SSI benefits past 18 (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    while a full-time college student.

    My father turned 65 and retired while I was still 17 and in HS and I received a SSI benefit until I turned 21 because I was a full-time student.

  •  Europe will bury us. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    While the USA regresses to the Middle Ages with its policy of "pay your own way", Europe moves forward with its policy of nurturing ability at public expense.  They know how to invest in their own countries.

  •  Ryan is the ideal poster boy for GOP (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    He should be held up as an example. He should be highlighted. He should be hounded and made to react, so that he stays in the news cycle. He is good news for Dems if they know how to use him.

  •  Dear Paul Ryan (0+ / 0-)

    Kindly go F yourself.

    Putting on the spectacles of science in expectation of finding an answer to everything looked at signifies inner blindness. -- J(ames) Frank Dobie

    by cactusflinthead on Sat Oct 22, 2011 at 09:15:55 PM PDT

  •  In Order To Pay For Their Tax Cuts To Millionaires (0+ / 0-)

    SS, Medicare & Pell Grants must be gutted.  That's it.  It's called priorities.

    As for Paul Ryan.....Social Security for me, but not for thee.

  •  Ryan is a younger Newt, who lived on tax money (0+ / 0-)

    all his life and  condemns anyone else who gets a few dollars of it.


    Retired AFSCME Steward and licensed gun carrying progressive veteran.

    by old mark on Sun Oct 23, 2011 at 04:59:31 AM PDT

  •  In an alternate Universe... (0+ / 0-)

    Today the republicans caved under pressure and voted for a $1.2 trillion jobs bill.  The bill would be paid for by raising taxes on the rich.

    In other news banks are facing much higher regulations, the energy sector is seeing sprouting growth with new solar and wind plants going up en masse.

    Impeachments against the Bush Cheney cabal are well underway. Single payer health-care has now been fully implemented, and John Bohner has apologized to the people for the Iraq and Afghan wars.

    Now back to your regularly scheduled reality...

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