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There is now emerging shocking evidence for major atrocities by the NTC rebels in Libya

From the CBS link above:

Nearly 300 bodies, many of them with their hands tied behind their backs and shot in the head, have been collected from across Sirte and buried in a mass grave. The new government has been slow to confront allegations of atrocities by rebel fighters, despite repeated calls for them to do so.

After the disturbing apparent cold-blood execution of  Gaddadi   and also his son (disturbing pictures in that link), it appears that there is some sort of mass killing of previous pro-Gadaffi fighters.    

As things are evolving and as the new Libyan leaders openly embraced Sharia law, one can only wonder if the new government would be any better than the Gadaffi regime.  

It is notable that the new government did not deny that the 300 pro-Gadaffi fighters might have been executed by rebels.   The response from a government official was (from the CBS link above) was:

"You have to bear in mind that these young man have seen their friends killed in front of them, who saw their cities burned, who saw their sisters raped. I am amazed at their self-restraint," said Ali Tarhouni, oil minister.

The evidence indicates that little restraint was shown.

In other words, it seems that the rebels now are committing war crimes in response to previous war crimes committed by the Gaddafi regime.   Obviously that is completely unacceptable and raises serious doubts on whether the new Libyan regime will be pro-democratic.  

It will be now also interesting to see whether the rebels who are committing such war crimes will be indicted by the international world crimes tribunal in the Hague and whether NATO will try to stop such crimes.  

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Comment Preferences

  •  The Libyan rebels have really raised the bar... (9+ / 0-)

    considering how they dispatched the dictator whose name is spelled 37 different ways.

    If I were Assad, I'd leave Syria now.

    Your concern for the former dictator is duly noted.

    How about I believe in the unlucky ones?

    by BenderRodriguez on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 06:26:43 AM PDT

  •  False Equivalencies, son. (8+ / 0-)
    Obviously that is completely unacceptable and raises serious doubts on whether the new Libyan regime will be pro-democratic.  

    Notice: This Comment © 2011 ROGNM

    by ROGNM on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 06:39:30 AM PDT

  •  Will you consider "indicting for war crimes" (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    BenderRodriguez, Pozzo

    a bargaining chip to be prudently set aside when 50,000 Chinese technicians and
     Gasprom and other Russian Libyan joint ventures are restarted, as they will be, in the coming months?

    I am  expecting a concern diary from you every day until that invitation happens.

    Just so you can show  us all your bona fides.

    If you think that you and a bunch of other people can just show up on Wall St, camp out and have any effect whatsoever, you're dreaming. *YUP!* h/t Hamden Rice

    by BeeDeeS on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 06:43:47 AM PDT

  •  NTC released a statement yesterday indicating (5+ / 0-)

    their intent for the Ministry of Justice and the High security Council to coordinate investigations and to put to trial anyone suspected of committing war-crimes or criminal acts.

    Will that diminish any of the outrage? I suspect not...

    Real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time. (Terry Pratchett)

    by angry marmot on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 07:04:21 AM PDT

  •  I bet there were some executions of Gaddafi (9+ / 0-)

    paramilitaries by rebel fighters towards the end, during the very brutal battle with the staunchest of the regime mercenaries and loyalists in Sirte.

    That always happens in war, and when untrained civilians are forced to become fighters because their family members and friends have been killed, suppressed, jailed, and tortured by a brutal, dictatorial regime for 42 years, then a certain amount of brutal retribution is bound to happen.

    That you jump to so many conclusions and distort the facts in such a free-wheeling manner is pretty sad, though:

    You say that "As things are evolving and as the new Libyan leaders openly embraced Sharia law, one can only wonder if the new government would be any better than the Gadaffi regime.

    That's false.  There are many different opinions on this amongst the leadership of the National Transitional Council.  Furthermore, just as in Christianity, there are many different interpretations of religion in Islam, ie. there are many different interpretations of sharia law, from moderate to extremist.  And those who propose sharia law in Libya generally are talking about a moderate interpretation of sharia law.

    After the disturbing apparent cold-blood execution of  Gaddadi   and also his son...

    From the video that you linked to the only things that are apparent are that Gaddafi was already seriously wounded when the video of his capture starts and that he was surrounded by a group of civilians turned fighters who have no military discipline, with some slapping and kicking him while others splash water on him and say they want him alive.

    Odd how that morphs into an "apparent execution" in your narrative.

    Anyway... Libya's future will be determined by the way Libyans choose to vote when they vote for their constitutional assembly in 8 months.  Libyans, as a people, will be determining their future for the first time in 42 years, and that's a good thing.

    Thanks for your "concern, though... it's quite similar to the "concern" expressed by the wingers and such "masterful" minds as Donald Trump.  RW sites like Newsmax just lap that stuff up.:

    “We spend all this money and it will be worse than Gadhafi — least he had control over his weapons, he had control over the country — I think what’s going on there is going to be worse,” Trump said. “You know what? When you look at him — I could care less for Gadhafi — but when you look at the way they treated him: I mean, these are the people that we are going to be dealing with.

    http://www.newsmax.com/...

     

    "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

    by Lawrence on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 07:06:49 AM PDT

    •  Wow, I knew (5+ / 0-)

      you were a supporter of western intervention in this civil war, but I didn't know you would be so eager to apologize for apparent war crimes. There are also other well documented abuses, such as the arbitrary detention of dark skilled fighter (our people though to be fighters) from sub-Saharan Africa.

      Word to the wise: it's possible to still support Western intervention and not defend the indefensible. Check out Human Rights Watch: they provide a good model.

      •  Unlike you, I'm not willing to jump to conclusions (5+ / 0-)

        about perceived "scary Islamists", David.

        I'll wait to see more evidence on what happened in the final weeks in Sirte.

        I know that there were many reports of Gaddafi Regime forces executing people suspected of being disloyal in Sirte, so to me it is not clear who executed whom.

        What I do know is that Gaddafi and his inner circle personally ordered the killing of thousands upon thousands of Libyans and went on Libyan state television and stated that "the rats should be hunted down, alley to alley, door to door", while the leadership of the National Transitional Council has publicly stated that it wants all prisoners to be treated well.

        What that tells me is that the Gaddafi Regime strongly encouraged war crimes and crimes against humanity while the new Libyan leadership has strongly discouraged them.

        And that's a difference that you don't seem to understand.

        "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

        by Lawrence on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 07:55:58 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  ? (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          420 forever, Johnny Q

          What does "Islamists" have to do with it?

          I've never hesitated to acknowledge the atrocities committed by Gaddafi and the humanitarian benefits of intervention. If only you were willing to acknowledge -- or at least refuse to apologize for -- atrocities committed by forces allied with the new government. Instead you say "this always happens in war" unless you're contradictorily denying that it happened altogether. The fact is that both Gaffadi and the rebels have committed war crimes -- that's been well documented by both Amnesty and HRW. Gaddafi's war crimes have been more numerous and lethal, but he isn't running the country anymore. If you care about Libya, as opposed to just caring about feeling correct, you'd be speaking out against human rights abuses, not matter who commits them. The fact is that ahe abuses committed by rebel forces, or militias allies with them, threatens the legitimacy of the new government and will hurt its ability to bring stability and unity. Not to mention the fact that it's wrong to slaughter people.

    •  Hard to believe that (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      david mizner, Johnny Q

      you are willing to excuse war crimes, but you are.  Think about it.   You somehow rationalize and find "acceptable" war crimes.    Think again.

      •  Nice try. (5+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        UnaSpenser, BeeDeeS, fizziks, tytalus, Pozzo

        Just because I'm not willing to jump to conclusions, it doesn't mean that I'm a fan of war crimes.

        But hey... one guy from the National Transitional Council stated that he would like to see a moderate form of Islam be the basis for judicial law in Libya, so they must all be a bunch of scary Islamists..... right?

        "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

        by Lawrence on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 08:02:38 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I don't think that's what he's saying. What he's (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Lawrence, BeeDeeS, LiberalCanuck, Pozzo

        noting is that after 42 years of a brutal despot and so much desperation, yes, we are seeing war crimes. Yes, they need to be prosecuted. The NTC has publicly stated that they will investigate and prosecute.

        What he is noting is that this is what people can be driven to when they that their lives have been so terrorized that they've had to turn to violence to survive. That we are so ready to point out every mis-step in a civilian army and then claim that they are worse than Gaddafi or that the resulting, democratically elected, leadership will be worse than Gadaffi is tragic. Sharia has a wide variety of interpretations and the NTC has embraced the United Nations Human Rights Conventions, which is more than the US had done.

        Why the doomsday machine?

        Gaddafi, with his funding of Mugabe and Gbagbo and his training of the janjaweeds (I'm sure all my spelling is incorrect, have massive headache right now) was perhaps the single biggest murderer of humans in all of human history. He funded genocides. Multiple. So, really? What Libya is going to become is worse than that?

        Gadaffi's brutal oppression of the Libyan people, where tens of thousands were imprisoned and disappeared and  where people were routine tortured and executed for daring to speak their truths or have different ideas than him was met with the Libyan people rising up and willing to die - many, many of whom did. He was not a leader they chose. He installed himself and through intensely violent means of terrorizing the people, he held onto autocratic power for 42 years. Yet, because some leaders mentioned the word 'sharia' while discussing a democratically elected form of government, Libya will be worse off?

        Gaddafi believed that he was the king of the world. That no other person on the planet ranked as high as he did. He was the quintessential megalomaniac.

        The man knew how to manipulate his public image. He had nearly unlimited resources via oil production. He could readily afford to send a few million to, say, Farakhan's organization, to boost his image in the US. In fact, we know that that's what he was doing. He asked the US gov't to help him reform his image. So, he claimed to give up weapons of mass destruction and, though, he hadn't changed a thing about supporting genocidal regimes and terrorizing his own people, we offered to help him.

        What the hell is wrong with everyone? Libyans loathed him. They feared him for 42 years, until they decided not to let fear stop them from ridding themselves of him. It was a commitment that cost them dearly. Not just in lives and material damages, but psychologically. Farmers, truck drivers, vendors all had to don weapons and face the ravages of war. And Gadaffi was willing to wage the most brutal of wars. So, yes, I am not surprised to hear that some of those desperate people lost their psychological way. Yes, we must prosecute them. But, no, I don't see these tragic acts and the use of the word 'sharia' to mean that Libya will be worse off than she was under the bloody fist of Gadaffi.

        Please remember to Witness Revolution. It means so much to them that we pay attention.

        by UnaSpenser on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 08:06:13 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Actually Una, no, you said this (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Blue Wind
          we are seeing war crimes. Yes, they need to be prosecuted.

          Lawrence didn't. Nice of you to try to put a positive spin on his apologia for atrocities, but it doesn't wash.

          •  I'm waiting to see more evidence.... instead of (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            tytalus

            jumping to conclusions.

            I really don't care if you want to try and distort that into "apologia for atrocities".

            "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

            by Lawrence on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 09:08:46 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Ohh, stop already with false equivalence. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Lawrence, milkbone

            The problem in Sirt was already pointed out above, the lack of discipline like the 18 year old with a NYYankee ball cap shooting Gahdafi to get a souvenir gold gun or whatever his excuse was.

            Shooting a man for petty theft, or a vendetta killing is not the same as a war crime.

            Common criminal law is in operation here. Even the NTC say they will investigate the situation.  The problem is they have their zealots and blood feuds to excuse the revenge taking. Quaddafi killed many thousands over the years, and several thousand in the vain attempt to
            keep power for his family. he had many chances to peacefully withdraw from the scene and chose not to.

            Much of this media angle of criminal elements in NTC forces being elevated to war crime status comes from the junior members of the imperialist corporate coalition that is losing at the moment the race to get back into Libya and grab the spoils for themselves.  (see Russia Today, etc).

            The US Voice of America and State Department/conservatives are in anguish over the Libyan renditioned people they handed over to Gahdafi coming back into power and being  "Sharia", and  also their rivals in Russian and Chinese enterprises competing with Exxon and BP to climb back into Libya.

            This diary acts as if the Libyans revolutionaries are just a bunch of CIA thugs or French and British enabled thugs.  None of it addresses the deals the Chinese and Russians made every bit as cynically and deviously and  opportunistically as the Exxons and others do in Saudi and elsewhere.

            May they all be kept on a very short leash and mind their manners or get booted.

            If you think that you and a bunch of other people can just show up on Wall St, camp out and have any effect whatsoever, you're dreaming. *YUP!* h/t Hamden Rice

            by BeeDeeS on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 09:33:06 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Hmm.... (0+ / 0-)

          You wrote

          The NTC has publicly stated that they will investigate and prosecute.

          Please provide a link that the NTC has publicly stated that such crimes will be "prosecuted".     They have mentioned "investigation" but never seen the word prosecution.  

          Now if the 300 bodies in Sirte are rebel-crimes (and almost certainly are) that is a huge war crime, at least as bad, if not worse, than Gaddafi crimes.   Think about it.  300 people with bullets and their hands tied.   That's an unbelievable atrocity.

          •  NTC statement, 25 October 2011, paragraph 1: (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Lawrence
            The Executive Office of the National Transitional Council attaches great importance to the concerted efforts deployed to ensure humane treatment, in accordance with the principles of international human rights covenants, to all Libyan and foreign prisoners and detainees. Under the supervision of the Ministry of Justice all cases and detention conditions will be considered and reviewed; fair trials will be guaranteed for those suspected of committing war crimes or criminal acts.

            Real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time. (Terry Pratchett)

            by angry marmot on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 09:52:51 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  where is the link? (0+ / 0-)
              •  'graph was quoted in a CNN article (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Lawrence

                posted yesterday, among others, and the text (in English and Arabic) is available at ShababLibya and elsewhere.

                Real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time. (Terry Pratchett)

                by angry marmot on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 11:27:28 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Ok, they said that (0+ / 0-)

                  but actions matter more than words.  Lets see if they will prosecute the rebels who murdered Gaddafi and his son and the ones who appear to have murdered execution style 300 people in Sirte.  It should not be that difficult to find them.   They were in the videos of the Gaddadi killing and their faces were there.   Lets see if the NTC will arrest them and prosecute them.

                  •  So typical: (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    raistuumum

                    You immediately assume the worst while the jury is still out.  

                    It's really odd that you immediately believe that the dictator was "murdered", yet you rec up comments that question the proven, historical fact of Benghazi being invaded and shelled by Gaddafi Regime forces in March....

                    Please do let us know when you have firm evidence of Gaddafi having been murdered, because, as of now, there is no video that shows his killing.

                    And thanks for your concern for the dictator family.

                    Have you also scolded the Romanians for their documented execution of Ceaucescu?

                    "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

                    by Lawrence on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 12:31:12 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

  •  What does it have to do with democracy? It's (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Marjmar, fizziks

    bad but expected in the middle of the all-out war. No one expected the rebels to be perfect.

  •  I just wanted to comment on one (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Lawrence, 420 forever, DruidQueen

    thing that you have said.  Your comment about Sharia is out of line, and something the right-wing uses to scare people about Islam.  As Muslims, they would undoubtably embrace Sharia.  That is the same as a Catholic embracing Catholic dogma.  

    I have to wonder why you seem to have such a misunderstanding about one of the world's major religions, and why you would choose to write about it here.  I suggest that you do some research about Islam.

  •  a big yawn on the killing of Qaddafi (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    DruidQueen, fizziks, Pozzo

    Very few found it disturbing how a mass murdering tyrant met his end at the hands of the people he was murdering.

    And the Libyan's cheered. Good for them.

    I'd let them worry about their new government. They couldn't care less about your concerns for the rights of the mass murderers.

  •  'rebels now are committing war crimes' ?? (4+ / 0-)

    And your evidence is?  First of all, no one knows who killed these people -- for all we know it could have been Gaddafi forces.

    Secondly, if it was any part of the rebel forces, the evidence shows these killings happened during the battle, not that the "are now committing" crimes, now that the battles are over, which par for the course, is a blatant, bald faced, shameless lie in service of glorifying one of the worst, most brutal, most genocidal dictators in recent history.

    •  Read the CBS article I linked to (0+ / 0-)

      It is crystal clear.  Read it.

      •  Yeah CBS, "Columbia " Broadcasting System (0+ / 0-)

        A paragon of info on US policy and world events for decades.  breathlessly telling stories to fluff the ruling elements." Libya is such a bad place now. Won't we miss the mercurial, jovial, clever Mummar now that he no longer is around to embrace McCain , Lindsay Graham, Rice, and Cheney and his Halliburton?" ( my quotes)

        just look at who is "bipartisanny " on missing the Q man already.

        If you think that you and a bunch of other people can just show up on Wall St, camp out and have any effect whatsoever, you're dreaming. *YUP!* h/t Hamden Rice

        by BeeDeeS on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 09:38:03 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  By the way... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      420 forever

      I have repeatedly wrote in my posts that Ghadaffi was a terrible dictator.    So, I have zero interest in glorifying him.  However, that does not make any of his opponents who commit similar crimes any better.   How can you defend war crimes?

  •  Can I get a resounding (6+ / 0-)

    MEH?

    First off... Sharia law? Really dude? Did you wander over from some right wing site? This fear of Sharia law is pretty right wing. Please learn something about Islam before you talk about it as something to be feared, thanks kindly.

    Second, I have no opinion either way of Gaddafi's death. He was a mass murderer, and his people gave him the justice they thought he deserved. Whether we think he ought to have had a fair and true trial is irrelevant. His people were judge, jury, and executioner and I think it's wrong to judge them when he tortured them for as long as he did.

    one can only wonder if the new government would be any better than the Gadaffi regime.  

    To quote many of George RR Martin's colorful characters: "Piss on that."

    Gaddafi was an animal, a mass murderer of epic proportions. He needed to be removed from power, and his people did that. How they choose to set up their new government is not for us to decide, nor for us to judge. If a new epicly murderous government is established, that has no bearing on whether or not Gaddafi's government was worthy of remaining in power. It wasn't. HE wasn't. So he's out and let Libya sort out her problems.

  •  This is our standard operating procedure (0+ / 0-)

    why change decades old, tried and true tactics now?

  •  The question is whether... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    fizziks, angry marmot, 420 forever

    ...these atrocities are isolated incidents of pent up rage or whether they are by persons who will have a strong voice in the government.  If the atrocities, like the execution of the 53 Gadaffi supporters at the hotel, are acceptable by the incoming government, there will be a problem.  If not, then there is hope.

    •  Here's a Human Rights Investigation report (0+ / 0-)

      on the massacre of hundreds in Tawergha by the rebel militias that may answer your question. Jibril gave the OK for this atrocity on September 18th. Is it any wonder that the Misrata militias went berserk in Sirte?

      If the atrocities, like the execution of the 53 Gadaffi supporters at the hotel, are acceptable by the incoming government, there will be a problem

      As you can plainly see, there definitely will be a problem. The militias will not be giving up their weapons anytime soon - especially the Misrata ones. Many may have to be taken by force but the NTC is very weak and needs alliance forces to hold control.

      http://humanrightsinvestigations.org/...

      Ethnic cleansing, genocide and the Tawergha

      Posted on September 26, 2011
      by HRI Mark

      Human Rights Investigations has been following the situation of the Tawergha closely and here we draw the information together and find, based on the reports of witnesses, journalists and human rights workers, the situation of the Tawergha is not just one of ethnic cleansing but, according to the legal definition, genocide.
      ...
      Mahmoud Jibril’s complicity in the crime of genocide

      Sam Dagher of the Wall Street Journal reported September 18th that Mahmoud Jibril, the National Transtional Council Prime Minister, rubber-stamped the wiping of the town off the map in a public meeting at the Misrata town hall:

      “Regarding Tawergha, my own viewpoint is that nobody has the right to interfere in this matter except the people of Misrata.”

      “This matter can’t be tackled through theories and textbook examples of national reconciliation like those in South Africa, Ireland and Eastern Europe,” he added as the crowd cheered with chants of “Allahu Akbar,” or “God is greatest.”


  •  They're not going away (0+ / 0-)

    There's an endless series of diaries this last week by people who opposed intervening in Libya now demanding that we intervene in Libya and force the new government to do exactly what we want them to do.

    There's a new government in Tripoli and they're going to find their own way forward.  Whether you like it or not, that's what's going to happen.  Our influence on this is going to be fairly light.  And that's probably the way it should be.

  •  "Liberation" videos of Sirte by Libyan rebels (0+ / 0-)

    If anyone thinks Libya will disarm anytime soon should view these videos which were professionally produced to glorify their attacks on Sirte.

    http://humanrightsinvestigations.org/...

    Responsibility to protect: the liberation of Sirte

    October 27, 2011 by HRI Mark

    According to NATO  figures, coalition aircraft delivered 415 key strikes on the town of Sirte between Sunday 28th August and Thursday 20th October. We have compared this to the bombing of Guernica and other comparisons have been made to the widely condemned levelling of Grozny.

    In addition, the rebels, described in NATO circles as a ‘proxy army” were allowed by NATO to indiscriminately shell the town with tank fire, heavy mortar fire and artillery. Here is some footage from the ‘Information Office of the Misrata Mujahid Battalion’ to illustrate the point:

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