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This is just a brief diary.  I am putting a question out to the community, for what it is worth.

All the Police actions against OWS have me really concerned.  (DOH!)  There are many reasons to be concerned but I will focus on one.

What are these actions designed to accomplish?  I mean really accomplish.

This is a very important question to ask at this juncture, to help OWS respond to what is actually going on both on the surface and beneath the surface, so that they can be much more effective and preserve their right to protest.

Because I cannot help but think that the OWS movement is being strategically 'caged' with these tactics, i.e. being corralled into upping the ante as they are being mistreated, abused and shut down from expressing their legitimate first amendment rights.

In other words, it wouldn't surprise me if the movement is either intentionally or unintentionally being provoked into behavior or actions that will justify a crackdown.  

Then think: imposition of local or state laws that will forbid any demonstrations, because they will be deemed to be threatening, the 'internment camps' of street lore, and basically demonizing this powerful political force  BEFORE the next election.

My in depth studies of group behavior, leads me to believe that we need to apply what these disciplines have to offer.  Such as, we need to take a systems perspective, viewing what is going on around the country as a whole, looking for common patterns and any types of causality that appear.  Such as, run a quick look at the type of police action compared to the political party of the the governor, mayor, etc.  Run a quick look at whether this is being ordered from the local vs. state level.  Etc. ETc.  Whatever correlates we can think of.

The police methodologies and tactics seem to me to have a common pattern across the country, so I wonder if there is some kind of coordination going on at some level?  Let's entertain that thought hypothetically?  If so, who/what would do the coordination?  Police manuals?  Dept. of Homeland Security guidelines?  Terrorist guidelines?  Prison-for-profit briefs designed to get more customers?  Some sort of brief put forward by an organization like ALEC?  Rove and the Republican Party?

Whatever patterns are found, then we need to try to ask the following question, over and over again:  "Who or which group would stand most to gain by OWS being shut down, either by the refusal of permits to demonstrations (which I would imagine is unconstitutional,) or being cracked down upon because 'they turned violent?'

It is important that this be an inductive process.  That is, that we work from the facts open mindedly to reach where the facts take us.  We may all feel, well this would benefit the Plutocrats and that it would, but the process I am suggesting is connecting the dots.

There are several things that can be done, once dots are connected.  Once we can finger who is doing what and why and for what purpose.  First of all exposes can be written, secondly if warranted legal action can be used, thirdly and most importantly the OWS movement can be better protected by knowing what is really going on, in specific.

We must provide OWS with all the help we can so THAT IT CAN CONTINUE.  We must help OWS not to get provoked and we must find a way so that the demonstrations can continue peacefully.

Anyway, those are the questions and thoughts I pose, because I smell a rat here.  Call me paranoid if you will.  But the stakes are too high for this coming election for allowing the OWS movement to upset the R playbook.  Do I think that the R's are behind this crackdown.  Probably.  But it will do no good to run around indignant about this thought, rather we need to get facts or as close to facts as we can.  We need solid information that is tracked down with the use of systems thinking and simple statistical correlations.


8:37 AM PT: On CNN (or FoxLite) this morning 11:30est: talking about the police crackdown in Oakland with video:

Interview with Jon Avlon, Senior Political Columnist, Newsweek

(comparing the Tea Party to OWS, with Tea Party being more organized,

"for Democratic Party....what alienates more than it attracts,... if they focus on specific reforms, ... (i.e. specifics)....but FOLKS WOULD BE ADVISED TO NOT TO GET TOO TERRIBLY CLOSE AS LONG AS THIS IS GOING TO DEGENERATE INTO THE VIOLENCE WE SAW LAST NIGHT"

And there you have it, the Republican Talking Points have hit the street, the morning after:

STAY AWAY FROM OWS BECAUSE OF THE PROSPECT OF VIOLENCE THAT MAY ERUPT.  The meta message:  This movement isn't specific and not stable:  STAY AWAY.

HMMM?  I want to connect the dots.  This is not a Conspiracy Theory but a search for actors behind the scenes.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Tip Jar (9+ / 0-)

    I belong to the “US” of America, not the “ME,$,ME,$,ME,$,ME,$” of America!

    by SeaTurtle on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 07:26:36 AM PDT

  •  I don't think that any special (5+ / 0-)

    conspiracy theory is needed to account for the tendency of the establishment to engage in harsh repression of anything that it perceives as a challenge to its authority and control. The purpose of OWS is to pose a fundamental challenge to the existing system. Anybody who thinks that can be accomplished in the form of a polite and genteel discussion is being seriously unrealistic.

    •  I disagree. your generalizations are (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Major Tom, Lujane

      not helpful in actually designing a strategy:

      the tendency of the establishment to engage in harsh repression

      why do you think marketing companies conduct focus groups for their products?  Because they want specifics.  And that is what I am suggesting.

      I belong to the “US” of America, not the “ME,$,ME,$,ME,$,ME,$” of America!

      by SeaTurtle on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 07:34:02 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  His point is that this is not complicated (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Richard Lyon

        or confusing if you understand the system that you are in. Its only requires this sort of "wait, I didn't know they would do this" if you thought that you were in a system not capable of this. In other words, the conspiracy part is where you think this unusual when in fact its every day, and in fact, if you go through history, its a part of any increasingly repressive system.

    •  furthermore, the applications of systems (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Major Tom, Lujane

      thinking is far from

      polite and genteel discussion

      Your comment is based on a lack of awareness of these tools.  Mega companies utilize them all the time, not to engage in 'polite and genteel discussion' but because they garner very, very useful information.

      I belong to the “US” of America, not the “ME,$,ME,$,ME,$,ME,$” of America!

      by SeaTurtle on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 07:36:17 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Yes, you and I have discussed this (6+ / 0-)

      Our system is tending towards being an inverted totalitarian system, which means this:

      First, whereas in Nazi Germany the state dominated economic actors, in inverted totalitarianism corporations and their lobbying dominate the Superpower, with the government acting as the servant of large corporations. This isn't considered corruption, but "normal".[7]

      Second, while the Nazi regime aimed at the constant political mobilization of the population, with its Nuremberg rallies, Hitler Youth, and so on, inverted totalitarianism aims for the mass of the population to be in a persistent state of political apathy. The only type of political activity expected or desired from the citizenry is voting. Low electoral turnouts are favorably received as an indication that the bulk of the population has given up hope that the government will ever help them.[8]

      Third, while the Nazis openly mocked democracy, Superpower maintains the conceit that it is the model of democracy for the whole world

      The inverted approach presupposes a population that is docile and willing to be controlled. However, it requires no system of conspiracy to understand if the ordinary techniques of bullshit and delusion does not work to control the population, then force must be used.

      In other words, we all got rights so long as we are never foolish enough to believe we can exercise them.

       Indeed, look at a site like Daily Kos. It bans  people if they question whether support a corrupt Democratic Party is the best choice or not. Another way of promoting silencing of dissent. Its a form of shepparding the discussion to limit our thoughts to being co opted by the Democratic Party.

  •  The approach seems pretty consistent, almost (4+ / 0-)

    coordinated.  I would wonder what the role of DHS has been.  DHS has a large training program for the nation's law enforcement personnel that includes crowd control and dealing with protests.  Not suggesting any conspiracy, just the consistency of the tactics.

  •  I deplore the brutality of the arrests, certainly (11+ / 0-)

    But it is not accurate to say that camping out in these areas is a lawful exercise of First Amendment rights. It's not.

    OWS is choosing tactics that create a confrontation with law enforcement. I wonder if that's the wisest choice. There may well be many Americans who sympathize with OWS underlying principles but are turned off by the law breaking.

    Getting arrested gets publicity, sure. But so do larger and larger  peaceful, lawful protests.

    •  I agree; imp points (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      elmo, Lujane

      What I am suggesting to help the OWS movement understand the legal parameters within which they are working.

      Also the role of agent provocateurs cannot be underestimated.
      The NYPD is documented to have provoked the walkers onto the Brooklyn Bridge, so that this tactic is not unknown.

      thank you for your input and link

      I belong to the “US” of America, not the “ME,$,ME,$,ME,$,ME,$” of America!

      by SeaTurtle on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 08:13:57 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Exactly--what's more interesting... (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      SeaTurtle, Catte Nappe, Lujane why these couple of cities (Oakland, Atlanta) became flashpoints while others, starting with NYC itself, have not.

      But nobody's buying flowers from the flower lady.

      by Rich in PA on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 08:37:28 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Thats right, Rich, and if this is something (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        connecting them, let's find out.

        Did you see the UPDATE I just posted re CNN?  WOW!  I mean WOW!.

        This seems to be part of the strategy, cause violence so people will be afraid to stay away.  Perhaps?  I ask questions rather than say I know, but the questions are important to ask in my opinion.

        I belong to the “US” of America, not the “ME,$,ME,$,ME,$,ME,$” of America!

        by SeaTurtle on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 08:40:30 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Race is one possible (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        significant variable.

        •  good point.... (0+ / 0-)

          I belong to the “US” of America, not the “ME,$,ME,$,ME,$,ME,$” of America!

          by SeaTurtle on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 08:44:16 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  But in both Atlanta and Oakland... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          ...African Americans aren't just the majority, they hold local political power.  So to the extent that race is a factor in those cities, it could well be that African-American elected officials don't believe the demonstrations are representative of the concerns of "their community," however flawed that belief may be.

          But nobody's buying flowers from the flower lady.

          by Rich in PA on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 08:48:38 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I'm not saying that it is a one to one (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            cause and effect. There is a history in Oakland of violent repression of public demonstrations. The response to the Oscar Grant verdict is quite recent. It this point the political power there is not exclusively African American. The present mayor is Asian American and a recall campaign has been mounted against her.

          •  Wait, so you think because they hold (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Richard Lyon

            political power that means racism can not be a factor? LOL. Sorry, to laugh, but I am thinking you don't understand perhaps AA politics or the situation in the AA community at times. Think Sharpe Jarmes of Newark.

            And please give me a break with the Daily Kos race gang talking point. The reality is that if you got black media sites that are actually progressive, and you check out the fact that there are occupythe hood movements, many African americans do in fact see this as their issue. the black pols are not necessarily representative of black communities either.

            in other words, this is complicated. your interpretation is flawed in terms of how the complication works itself out.

            •  If I had a time-travel capsule... (0+ / 0-)

              ...I'd use it to go back somewhere more worthwhile than "this website, two months ago."  But hey, it's your capsule.

              But nobody's buying flowers from the flower lady.

              by Rich in PA on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 09:19:36 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  IN short you want to believe what you posted (0+ / 0-)

                so you are now going to say something about me, thatyou think says something about me, rather than respond to mey argument. Got it. Childish. Leaving you in your bubble where you make shit up without really thinking about hte black experience as it is really happening. BUt got it.

        •  Not sure. OWS in Oakland was mostly white. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          What is possible is that in these cities police departments are more aggressive due to high crime levels there in general.

    •  Its interesting how you don't question the (5+ / 0-)

      nature of the law as to whether the laws themselves are valid.

      OWS is not creating a conflict. The conflict is a result of the selective exercise and enforcement of laws against those who threaten the status quo while using those laws to protest those who do not.

      This is the subject of a book by Glenn Greenwald.

      "Following is an excerpt from Glenn Greenwald’s new book, With Liberty and Justice for Some: How Law is Used to Destroy Equality and Protect the Powerful; this is from the section of the book examining how the Ford pardon of Nixon entrenched the corrupt precepts of modern elite immunity

      These laws are being enforced in a way to prevent dissent from the establishment rather than truly being "against the law."

      Its interesting to me how the average American is a willing participant in your own system of controls on your behavior that are in fact not applied equally. That are applied to make sure you are controlled while others are allowed to do what htey want.


      The book focuses on what I began realizing several years ago is the crucial theme tying together most of the topics I write about: America’s two-tiered justice system – specifically, the way political and financial elites are now vested with virtually absolute immunity from the rule of law even when they are caught committing egregious crimes, while ordinary Americans are subjected to the world’s largest and one of its harshest and most merciless penal states even for trivial offenses. As a result, law has been completely perverted from what it was intended to be – the guarantor of an equal playing field which would legitimize outcome inequalities – into its precise antithesis: a weapon used by the most powerful to protect their ill-gotten gains, strengthen their unearned prerogatives, and ensure ever-expanding opportunity inequality.

      I know you will, of course, say this is unfair and not right, but will not understand your role in this system.  And that's what I am trying to emphasis in reading your statement, which to me is disturbing. Its easy to say you disagree with the way our system is. The question becomes:What are you willing to do about it?

      •  important point to consider as well (0+ / 0-)

        leads to questions such as 'are state laws against the first amendment rights, unconstitutional, etc.'

        I belong to the “US” of America, not the “ME,$,ME,$,ME,$,ME,$” of America!

        by SeaTurtle on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 09:59:28 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  sorry, but to me arguing about the validity (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        of ordinances governing public spaces is a distraction from the discussing the validity of the laws we really ought to be focusing on: the ones that unfairly benefit big business and the wealthy over the rest of us.

        I honestly don't see why OWS protests must involve breaking long standing speech ordinances in order to make its point. In fact, as I've already noted, I think it distracts from its point.

        I honestly don't see what point staying in a park overnight makes that is not made very adequately during the day. And, I think you would see more people joining the protest during the day were it not tainted with illegality and the threat of arrest.

        •  The thing is I could spend my entire life (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          trying to explain this to someone like you. The "this" being the selective enforcement of laws. But if you pretend not to get the point because you really don't give a shit about the issues, then there is really nothing I can say because each time you will respond with some absurd comment that really does not get the point. Its like coming to the scene of a murder complaining about the guy who is littering. One could spend days explain to the busy body citizen whining about the litering or one can simply spend their time focused on the murder. In short, its not our fault that you pretend this is such a big issue. Its not OWS fault that the citieis in question want to pretend the ordinances are a huge issue. Its called pretext. They are using these laws because that's all they got to justify their crack down on the protestors. Thankfully for them there is alway ssomeone like you there to defend the absurd. Oh, and I certainly hope that disrupted your delicate nature.

        •  yup. completely agree. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          Focusing on these subtle laws that are rarely questioned is a way of shifting the bar--sometimes somewhere completely different.  It's like character-questioning in a courtroom.  

          In some cases, as with the Civil Rights movement, civil disobedience was directed at the laws in question--i.e. segregation.  The laws were unjust, so they were violated.

          This is different.  The laws are fine---the battle is with the corporate political interests--not public square rights.

          •  And I guess that's where my disagreement (0+ / 0-)

            really lies. I don't think civil disobedience is appropriate in all cases. Where you're contesting the fairness of the law in question, sure. Or where you're contesting the morality of the policy served by the law (like refusing to be drafted), sure.

            Here, the civil disobedience strikes me as beside the point,  a distraction, and potentially harmful to the movement.

  •  Well, the Republican noise machine (4+ / 0-)

    is well known, definitely includes a formal organization, and at least used to be coordinated directly out of Grover Norquist's office, though that may have changed. That is how, for decades, starting at least as early as the Clinton era,  Republicans have generally all been hitting the identical talking points each week.  

    As far as law enforcement tactics, they all receive roughly the same training. There are also national organizations for law enforcement chiefs, and I'm sure they all go to the same professional conferences and hear the same lectures. So top-down tactical coordination of law enforcement in different cities would not be required in order to see a certain uniformity of response.

    One can't absolutely exclude additional levels of coordination, especially given what we know about the existence of "fusion centers," but using Occams' razor, we don't have evidence of it either.

    I like your attempt to apply systems thinking, though. More of that could be interesting.

    •  thank you. since we now know of ALEC (0+ / 0-)

      and how it coordinated, nationwide, a weakening of social benefits, the strengthening of a lot of their 'client' interests, such as greater prison sentences (for the for-profit prison industry, weakening EPA for the Koch's, etc., etc.) we must look out for that.

      I belong to the “US” of America, not the “ME,$,ME,$,ME,$,ME,$” of America!

      by SeaTurtle on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 10:01:20 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  i would add (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      the RW talk radio monopoly is well-coordinated on major national as well as local issues.

      see post below....

      Progressives will lose all major messaging battles until they picket the limbaugh/hannity megastations and boycott those stations' local sponsors.

      by certainot on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 12:01:59 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Don't forget the MIC & weapons industry. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    They must be a little worried about their profit margins now that troops are leaving Iraq, for starters. Who's gonna take up the slack on buying all that hardware if we're getting out of wars all over the place.

    From what I've heard, the Oakland PD is one of the most heavily militarized in the country. And the boys gotta play with their toys ...

    Just a thought.

    'I'm The 99%' T-shirt: Will donate from income on sales.

    by jan4insight on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 10:51:04 AM PDT

    •  and a great thought (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      we got to get it all out on the table, and then look at it all and see if we can see cause/effect patterns, to find out who/what specifically may be behind provoking the OWS movement.

      I belong to the “US” of America, not the “ME,$,ME,$,ME,$,ME,$” of America!

      by SeaTurtle on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 10:55:36 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •   all local RW radio stations are demeaning OWS (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    first with the main national talkers like limbaugh and hannity and then localized with the local blowhards.

    i'm visiting CO and saw it here re occupy denver, with the local talkers attacking the protestors  (limbaugh sets the flavor and standards).

    in denver, like with many major right wing stations, the limbaugh station KOA, with major local blowhard mike rosen, does broncos, rockies, and colorado buffaloes sports broadcasting.

    these stations have huge local presence and can apply huge pressure, as they did in denver, on local politicians of both parties, as well as egg on cops (clean out the urine soaked hippies) and then excuse their actions after the fact.

    limbaugh has been doing regular bits along those lines and i suspect the other nationals and all local RW talkers  are too, just as they usually are on national issues, well-coordinated by the RW think tanks.

    Progressives will lose all major messaging battles until they picket the limbaugh/hannity megastations and boycott those stations' local sponsors.

    by certainot on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 12:00:03 PM PDT

    •  some OWS protests have the opportunity to (0+ / 0-)

      get their own backs by protesting RW radio stations and the universities and pro sports teams that broadcast on, and give credibility and community acceptance to those stations.

      i'm pretty sure the main NM RW talk station (albuquerque) is located downtown across from the city jail (with public employees), maybe even where the arrested protestors were taken. it's the same station that broadcasts UNM LOBOS sports.

      Progressives will lose all major messaging battles until they picket the limbaugh/hannity megastations and boycott those stations' local sponsors.

      by certainot on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 12:07:39 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  It may be something simple... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Tonedevil, SeaTurtle

    The stage was set long before this movement took shape.  The fact that every podunk town in the country got grant $$ and training after 9/11 means that they are all prepared for riots, etc.  I presume that they retrain or upgrade periodically, but haven't really had a chance to apply all their new toys, let alone vent the testosterone.  This is the perfect opportunity, except for one thing: OWS isn't playing along.  The police have to incite things in order to respond.

    -7.62, -7.28 "Hold fast to dreams, for if dreams die, life is a broken winged bird that cannot fly." -Langston Hughes

    by luckylizard on Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 01:25:37 PM PDT

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