Skip to main content

Obama has failed and will continue to fail as a President, because of his ideological commitment to maintaining the Bush/Reagan economic oligarchy.

He will also fail, because his blindness is so total that it extends to his senior staff.  From Naked Capitalism:

The research project that reinforced my view about the crushing costs of financial ignorance was reviewing Attorney General Holder’s testimony before the Financial Crisis Inquiry Commission (FCIC). It is apparent that neither Holder nor his senior staff read Naked Capitalism (at least in that era). Attorney General Holder made two extraordinary statements at that hearing demonstrating his utter ignorance. Chairman Angelides asked Holder to explain the actions the Department of Justice (DOJ) took in response to the FBI’s warning in September 2004 that mortgage fraud was “epidemic” and its prediction that if the fraud epidemic were not contained it would cause a financial “crisis.” Holder testified: “I’m not familiar myself with that [FBI] statement.”

...

For none of his senior staffers to know about the FBI testimony requires that they know nothing about the department’s most important and (potentially) useful act. That depth of ignorance could not exist if his senior aides cared the least about the financial crisis and made it even a minor priority to understand, investigate, and prosecute the frauds that drove the crisis. Because Holder was testifying in January 14, 2010, the failure of anyone from Holder on down to know about the FBI’s warnings also requires that all of them failed to read any of the relevant criminology literature or Naked Capitalism.

There is no excuse for this, none whatsoever.  It is a Bushian level of total incompetence, and it is combined with a Bushian level of total confidence.  There is no alternative to Obama, and we are completely fucked until 2017 at the earliest.

It is silly for anyone who cares about this country to actually support Obama.  He will be much less vile than any Republican who takes office, but he will be utterly incompetent at taking on the most vital task facing our political system today: resisting the corrosive influence of oligarchs who want to destroy this country's middle class and civil liberties.  There is no time to primary Obama, but our energy should be spent on supporting good Congressional candidates and building an infrastructure to support an actually competent candidate for the 2016 election.

Originally posted to Punditus Maximus on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 09:16 AM PST.

Also republished by Trolls.

Poll

Do you think Obama has a pro-oligarch ideology?

43%81 votes
37%70 votes
2%5 votes
12%23 votes
4%9 votes

| 188 votes | Vote | Results

EMAIL TO A FRIEND X
Your Email has been sent.
You must add at least one tag to this diary before publishing it.

Add keywords that describe this diary. Separate multiple keywords with commas.
Tagging tips - Search For Tags - Browse For Tags

?

More Tagging tips:

A tag is a way to search for this diary. If someone is searching for "Barack Obama," is this a diary they'd be trying to find?

Use a person's full name, without any title. Senator Obama may become President Obama, and Michelle Obama might run for office.

If your diary covers an election or elected official, use election tags, which are generally the state abbreviation followed by the office. CA-01 is the first district House seat. CA-Sen covers both senate races. NY-GOV covers the New York governor's race.

Tags do not compound: that is, "education reform" is a completely different tag from "education". A tag like "reform" alone is probably not meaningful.

Consider if one or more of these tags fits your diary: Civil Rights, Community, Congress, Culture, Economy, Education, Elections, Energy, Environment, Health Care, International, Labor, Law, Media, Meta, National Security, Science, Transportation, or White House. If your diary is specific to a state, consider adding the state (California, Texas, etc). Keep in mind, though, that there are many wonderful and important diaries that don't fit in any of these tags. Don't worry if yours doesn't.

You can add a private note to this diary when hotlisting it:
Are you sure you want to remove this diary from your hotlist?
Are you sure you want to remove your recommendation? You can only recommend a diary once, so you will not be able to re-recommend it afterwards.
Rescue this diary, and add a note:
Are you sure you want to remove this diary from Rescue?
Choose where to republish this diary. The diary will be added to the queue for that group. Publish it from the queue to make it appear.

You must be a member of a group to use this feature.

Add a quick update to your diary without changing the diary itself:
Are you sure you want to remove this diary?
(The diary will be removed from the site and returned to your drafts for further editing.)
(The diary will be removed.)
Are you sure you want to save these changes to the published diary?

Comment Preferences

  •  Tip Jar (15+ / 24-)

    The two things Teabaggers hate most are: being called racists; and black people.

    "It takes balls to execute an innocent man." -- anonymous GOP focus group member on Rick Perry

    by Punditus Maximus on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 09:16:42 AM PST

  •  Obama has found a few banksters to prosecute. (5+ / 0-)

    Ten.

    From the same article:

    DOJ has obtained ten convictions of senior insiders of mortgage lenders (all from one obscure mortgage bank) v. over 1000 felony convictions in the S&L debacle. DOJ has not conducted an investigation worthy of the name of any of the largest accounting control frauds. DOJ is actively opposing investigating the systemically dangerous institutions (SDIs).

    Guess one company managed to piss off someone in the Administration personally.  Don't get excited, though; Obama still thinks the bankers didn't do anything wrong.  Of course, what did these guys do then?

    The two things Teabaggers hate most are: being called racists; and black people.

    "It takes balls to execute an innocent man." -- anonymous GOP focus group member on Rick Perry

    by Punditus Maximus on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 09:18:43 AM PST

    •  If ever a name predicted behavior, yours does. N/T (21+ / 0-)

      But nobody's buying flowers from the flower lady.

      by Rich in PA on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 09:50:12 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  rec'd to counter ratings abuse (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      aigeanta, TheMomCat, BradyB, priceman, Knarfc
      •  I don't really engage in the pre and contra-Obama (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        TheMomCat, david mizner

        stuff anymore, but I'll join you in that rec.
        I don't see anything here that is hide-rate-worthy.

        Being ignored is the difference between being a one percenter and an American.--sweeper

        by SouthernLiberalinMD on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 12:39:31 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Agreed (0+ / 0-)

          Like it or not this is valid criticism.

          “progressive” has been rendered meaningless by being adopted by pretty much everyone to the left of Attila the Hun ~ Yves Smith The Stars Hollow Gazette

          by TheMomCat on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 12:41:08 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Yeah, sure (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            kalmoth, foufou, askew, elmo

            Abandoning the presidency to work on 2016, that certainly serves the interests of electing more and better Democrats. Abandoning one of them.

            Uprate the bait!

            There is no belief, however foolish, that will not gather its faithful adherents who will defend it to the death. -- Isaac Asimov

            by tytalus on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 12:44:24 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  If You Don't Support the Right Wing (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            TheMomCat

            of the Democratic Party here, you will get hit with tons of undeserved HRs.  It's the same authoritarian impulse that causes people to idolize and put their faith in leaders who are in all likelihood often working directly against their interests. I expect Obama to get re-elected with a significant portion of the Democratic wing of the Democratic Party either sitting 2012 out or holding their noses and swallowing down their sick as they vote, but only because the Republican side has gone utterly and completely batshit crazy.

            We can't go on supporting tools of the 1% like most of the mainstream of the current party though past 2012 and expect the Party to remain a useful or relevant political entity. Nor should we. We either rebuild the party from almost the ground up or it will join the Whig Party in the dustbin of history. People are beginning to see through the charade.

            Advisors for President-Elect Barack Obama feared the new administration would face a coup if it prosecuted Bush-era war crimes, according to a new report out this morning.

            by Kurt Sperry on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 02:25:33 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  Riiight (0+ / 0-)

          Because lying should be rewarded.

      •  Really, failed presidency?????? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Tennessee Dave, kalmoth

        I see a shit storm he inherited, a do absolutely nothing Congress and still he managed to get things done. I HR'd just for the lie. I am sick to death of the histronics, this is not a failed presidency!!!!!!!! My nephew is now covered by healthcare, added to his mothers policy, all because of our president. He actually went for a checkup for the first time in 5 yrs. He is 23 and looks extremely fit and found out he has high blood pressure. Who knows what damage this could have caused and he saw a doctor because of the President! Every time I open a credit card statement and see the breakdown, that's my president in action. Do you think OWS would have been viable under another guy, really, we weren't even allowed to wear anti-Bush tshirts. Funny how you want to go after Obama about mortgage fraud, but Bush disregarded every warning about 9/11 and no one issued a peep!

        And this part is pure fucking bullshit!
        "There is no excuse for this, none whatsoever.  It is a Bushian level of total incompetence, and it is combined with a Bushian level of total confidence.  There is no alternative to Obama, and we are completely fucked until 2017 at the earliest.
        It is silly for anyone who cares about this country to actually support Obama.  He will be much less vile than any Republican who takes office, but he will be utterly incompetent at taking on the most vital task facing our political system today: resisting the corrosive influence of oligarchs who want to destroy this country's middle class and civil liberties.  There is no time to primary Obama, but our energy should be spent on supporting good Congressional candidates and building an infrastructure to support an actually competent candidate for the 2016 election"

        I expect a diary like this from republicans, not from our side.

        Republicans piss on you and tell you it's raining, Democrats hand you an umbrella!

        by Nica24 on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 02:40:15 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  The title alone is HR worthy. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Tennessee Dave

      While on content, I agree that there is nothing here worthy of an HR, parroting a right-wing talking point in the title is beyond the pale.

      I'm from the government and I'm here to help. Oh, yeah, and Ronald Reagan was an idiot and a lousy president.

      by journeyman on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 02:38:25 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  If you look on it as corrosion... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Whimsical, jan4insight, vipersdad

    ... then Obama vs anybody is a case of (at worst) slow corrosion vs fast dissolving action.

    The choice sucks, but i'd rather take the slow corrosion; at least then maybe things can be saved down the road.

    •  I'd rather hit bottom ASAP (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      rcnewton, ohmyheck, LibEthio, khereva

      then we can start fixing things, rather than continue to pretend and procrastinate.

      NOW SHOWING
      Progressive Candidate Obama (now - Nov 6, 2012)
      Bipartisan Obama returns (Nov 7, 2012)

      by The Dead Man on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 09:28:38 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Except that if we hit bottom with a GOP Pres... (16+ / 0-)

        ...in 2013, then we won't be able to dig out for another decade or two—because the next president is all but certain to be replacing at least one, if not two or three, of Anthony Kennedy, Stephen Breyer, and Ruth Bader Ginsburg.

        A Scalia-clone stranglehold on the Supreme Court means the end of the New Deal and absolutely no chance of passing progressive legislation for decades to come.

        "Fixing things" won't start until 2025—and that's assuming there's a country left to fix by then—if the Republican wins in 2012.

        "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." --Dom Helder Camara, archbishop of Recife

        by JamesGG on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 09:36:53 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  And if Obama destroys the Dem Party (5+ / 0-)

          by making it as corrupt as his Administration?  There's no good scenario here, and we should let go of the illusion of control.  Obama will fail.  He might fail in time to lose to Bachmann/Palin Overdrive 2012, or he might fail after that and deliver us a united GOP supermajority House/Senate.  Or he might limp along and make all of Hillary's failed campaign consultants rich.

          But none of that has anything to do with us.  Obama wants the same thing the GOP wants -- he's just less aggro about it.  Both of them think that the US middle class is an anachronism and that the future of the United States lies in being an economic colony of the Chinese and Europeans.

          The two things Teabaggers hate most are: being called racists; and black people.

          "It takes balls to execute an innocent man." -- anonymous GOP focus group member on Rick Perry

          by Punditus Maximus on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 10:12:36 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  "Democratic establishment"? (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            raptavio

            Do you work for the DNC?

            Strength and dignity are her clothing, she rejoices at the days to come; She opens her mouth with wisdom, and the law of kindness is on her tongue.

            by loggersbrat on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 10:39:34 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  Amazing. (9+ / 0-)

            How do you know the inner workings of the President's mind so well? Are you psychic or do you use orbital telepathy lasers on the White House?

            We have just enough religion to make us hate, but not enough to make us love one another. -- Jonathan Swift

            by raptavio on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 10:42:12 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  Didn't Know His Administration was So "Corrupt." (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            kalmoth, Tennessee Dave

            Must be that "new math" I've been hearing about.

            Will Rogers was right.

            by kefauver on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 11:52:15 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Keystone XL. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              khereva

              And his economic policy is bought and paid for by Goldman Sachs.  The sad thing is, I think it's ideological, rather than personal -- he seems to have this weird belief that he's supposed to give large private organizations whatever they want, rather than needing anything from it personally.

              The two things Teabaggers hate most are: being called racists; and black people.

              "It takes balls to execute an innocent man." -- anonymous GOP focus group member on Rick Perry

              by Punditus Maximus on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 12:04:29 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Mmmm hmmm. (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Deep Texan, kalmoth

                If Keystone XL is so obvious that a third-rate DKOS diarist can "figure it out," then what's taking Darrell Issa and his impeachment crew so long?

                I mean, the GOP went after the Clintons for Whitewater right away.

                Will Rogers was right.

                by kefauver on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 12:09:28 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Hey, if you don't care, (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  khereva, Greyhound

                  you don't care.  I wish people would just say that -- "Obama is on 'Team D' and I don't agree with this site's emphasis on 'better' Democrats."

                  There is a lot of good reporting coming out on the fact that the reason the Keystone XL is about to get Obama's imprimatur on its "limited adverse environmental impacts" is because of cross-connections between the firm doing the EIS, State, and TransCanada.  You're welcome to ignore it, of course.  But it's silly to say that other people have to.

                  The two things Teabaggers hate most are: being called racists; and black people.

                  "It takes balls to execute an innocent man." -- anonymous GOP focus group member on Rick Perry

                  by Punditus Maximus on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 12:16:24 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I'm Not Ignoring Anything. (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Deep Texan

                    Just waiting for a smoking gun to surface that demonstrates concrete illegal activity on Obama's part.  I'm sure it will be up on the Drudge Report first thing any day now.

                    Will Rogers was right.

                    by kefauver on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 12:33:47 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Corruption doesn't have to be illegal. (0+ / 0-)

                      Abramoff was always perfectly allowed to offer Congressional staffers jobs.

                      The two things Teabaggers hate most are: being called racists; and black people.

                      "It takes balls to execute an innocent man." -- anonymous GOP focus group member on Rick Perry

                      by Punditus Maximus on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 02:12:14 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

        •  Which there won't be. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          yorkiedoglover

          If the GOP takes the hat trick in '12, we're done. Kiss America goodbye.

          "The future of man is not one billion of us fighting over limited resources on a soon-to-be dead planet. . .I won't go back into the cave for anyone."

          by Whimsical on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 11:17:24 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  There Is No Rebound. Progressive Policy Will (8+ / 0-)

        be unconstitutional after that.

        With 2 conservative parties if we let the rightwing win now when nonrightwing Justices are up for replacement, that's the end of the American experiment, flat-out.

        It really is the bottom.

        We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

        by Gooserock on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 10:09:12 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  We hit bottom a while ago (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        joe shikspack, khereva

        But the Beltway Boys brought jackhammers.

        You may think that. I couldn't possibly comment.-- Francis Urqhart

        by Johnny Q on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 11:27:22 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  And are you willing (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Deep Texan, kalmoth

        to be one of the people who suffers and dies when we race to the bottom?

        We have just enough religion to make us hate, but not enough to make us love one another. -- Jonathan Swift

        by raptavio on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 11:43:15 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  it's an interesting debate to have... (0+ / 0-)

      Honestly with the exception of Health Care Reform and pulling out of iraq on the Bush time-table, we need to ask ourselves what substantial and tangible differences exist under an Obama America vs. a Bush America?

      Bush Tax cuts, Bush's financial/economic agenda, really no differences on energy policy; gitmo still open, losing ground in Afghanistan; no child left behind.  

      And a health care reform plan that does nothing to control provider/hospital/pharmacy costs.....as such is going to be (in my opinion) less effective.

      I hate that I'm even asking this question but to me Obama always has reminded me of an Eisenhower Republican.  I wanted a Roosevelt or at minimum, a LBJ.

      I wanted someone who was wily and could be mean.  I wanted someone who could bully the opposition when he needed to and sweet-talk them when he didn't.

      These are of course, my views.  That he is a Democrat and our president makes it such that I will campaign and vote for him.  I will do so with a muted conviction this time around, as I find it hard to defend policies that I find Bushian for the most part.

      I know this site is dedicated to helping dems win elections, but I can't think of strategies that are less likely to put a dem in the whitehouse for the next 4, then another 8 years after that if we just embrace a series of failed policies.

      To that entent I recommended the diary.  

      I think Obama needs to know deep our disappointment runs.  

      Maybe I'm in the minority of the Democratic party.  I don't think so.

  •  dot (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    kalmoth

    dot

    Republicans: They hate us for our Freedom.

    by mikeconwell on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 09:21:21 AM PST

  •  Speaking of incompetence (9+ / 0-)

    the liberal-left really fucked up the 2010 elections. That's the real reason why we're fucked until 2017: because none of those senators will be up until 2016.

    If, instead, we still had a sizable majority and only a few conservadem senators (leaving more than 50 yes votes) we could still pass almost any liberal legislation. Barack Obama's veto pen hasn't been used on many liberal bills...

    "Hahai nō ka ua i ka ululā'au" -- Hawaiian proverb.

    John Boehner? The sleaze bucket who hands out bribes from big tobacco on the House floor?

    by Nulwee on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 09:22:10 AM PST

  •  curious as to your purpose with this diary. (27+ / 0-)

    are you trying to get people to vote AGAINST the incumbent Dem president?

    from the title to your 'holder's the worst ever' meme, it seems a diary like this can only help to convince kossacks to vote anti-Dem, your token "he's less vile" statement at the end notwithstanding.

    you know your audience though.  this'll go over like gangbusters here.

    This comment is dedicated to my mellow Adept2U and his Uncle Marcus

    by mallyroyal on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 09:25:09 AM PST

    •  I think you're wrong. (19+ / 0-)

      It will  not go over like gangbusters.  It's an ignorant diary written in ignorance for the ignorant.  

      but like moths to a flame, it draws people to fight.  I should never have read it or the comments.  What a waste of my time.

      More jobs equal less debt, even our kids can understand that.

      by TomP on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 09:28:01 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Tom, fully half the site will love this. (14+ / 0-)

        the other half will react the way I did, or worse.

        This comment is dedicated to my mellow Adept2U and his Uncle Marcus

        by mallyroyal on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 09:29:07 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  No recs to this point. (12+ / 0-)

          I think empirical data proves your statement incorrect.

          This diary is going nowhere.    

          And that is good.

          More jobs equal less debt, even our kids can understand that.

          by TomP on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 09:32:19 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I'll be very happy to be proven wrong. (11+ / 0-)

            the jury's still out though.

            This comment is dedicated to my mellow Adept2U and his Uncle Marcus

            by mallyroyal on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 09:53:35 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Hope you've been well. (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Geekesque, kestrel9000, mallyroyal

              Take care.

              More jobs equal less debt, even our kids can understand that.

              by TomP on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 09:54:26 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  you must be happy then, mally. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              ohmyheck
            •  I recced it. I was glad to think part of the (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              joe shikspack, TheMomCat

              problems we see was just plain ignorance. I don't pretend to know law or economics but what I see at work in dc is those folks don't know either.

              I am with the diarist. We will have Obama through 2016. He is fortunate that the opposition is self destructing in a spectacular way. If he doesn't have material for ads then I must say it will be a total waste of all those debates.

              We need to talk more about economics. I don't think we can ever do that enough when times are this bad and the forthcoming solutions are too terrible to contemplate.

              We have to open ourselves and be ready to take criticism. We have to know that we are strong enough to accept new ideas, new thoughts about old ideas, and allow people a chance to critique what doesn't seem to be working in their eyes. If we cannot be that strong, then we will have a problem creating the world we want in cooperation with others.

              Clothes make the man. Naked people have little or no influence on society. - Mark Twain

              by glitterscale on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 11:11:58 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  But you're with the diarist (5+ / 0-)

                that Barack Obama is as incompetent and corrupt as GW Bush?

                If you can't, or choose not to, see daylight between the two Presidents, then shame on you.

                We have just enough religion to make us hate, but not enough to make us love one another. -- Jonathan Swift

                by raptavio on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 11:42:04 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  No I am with the diarist in that President (0+ / 0-)

                  Obama's adminstration had blind spots. Perhaps it is the Chicago U influence. Perhaps it is Rahm's influence. Perhaps it is any number of things. I think we need to tout the things that Obama has done and acknowledge that if we had our druthers the administration would certainly have done more. For instance we can tout the student loan changes:

                  Today, the Obama Administration announced steps we are taking to help borrowers better manage their student loan debt by moving forward with a new “Pay As You Earn” proposal that will reduce monthly payments for more than 1.6 million people. Starting in 2014, borrowers will be able to reduce their monthly student loan payments from 15 percent to 10 percent of their discretionary income. But President Obama realizes that many students need relief sooner than that. The new “Pay As You Earn” proposal will fast track the initiative to begin next year.
                  coutesy of the WH

                  Of course, like the HCR, provisions are always a year or so away.

                  And:

                  Obama said new job search tools, provided through the Labor Department using existing funds, would immediately help veterans transition to the civilian workforce, though they offer no guarantee of jobs.  Several of the resources, which Obama first discussed in a speech at Navy Yard on Aug. 5, are already in place in some form.

                  A so-called “veteran gold card” would allow post-9/11 veterans to receive six months of case management, skills assessments and career counseling at one of the roughly 3,000 One-Stop Career Centers run by the Labor Department.  The administration says more than 200,000 unemployed veterans are eligible for the benefits.

                  The Labor Department has also launched two new websites:  My Next Move for Veterans, which will provide information on salaries, apprenticeships and training programs, and the Veterans Job Bank, which currently lists 500,000 job postings companies have tailored for veterans.

                  Job search tools for vets

                  It always feels like crumbs. Pitching crumbs. When I got laid off, I got a bennie of job search counseling. Of course I was 60 then. How many people would hire me other than things like call centers (which I tried) and starting my own business (which I tried as well.)

                  Clothes make the man. Naked people have little or no influence on society. - Mark Twain

                  by glitterscale on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 01:38:53 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  The diarist doesn't say (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    tytalus, FG, kefauver

                    that Obama's administration has blind spots.

                    He says the Obama administration is actively malicious, corrupt and incompetent.

                    You want to sign on with that, be my guest, but don't try to pretend it's something else you're signing onto.

                    We have just enough religion to make us hate, but not enough to make us love one another. -- Jonathan Swift

                    by raptavio on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 01:45:59 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  March March March (0+ / 0-)

                      Onward and Fight fight fight!

                      I am not ever in the mood for somebody trying to define me. I think that Obama's administration (and this is just my opinion mind, nobody else's and I am NOT requiring ANY other person to sign on because I don't need to feel I have a crowd cheering me on) is inept. President Obama has signed on to some of the worst things from the Bush administration in regards to that so-called war on terror. He has ADDED to that "unitary executive" rather than be that transparent leader we had hoped for. He has deported more illegal aliens (along with all the misery for their families that entails) tried to prosecute whistle blowers and for all intents and purposes, allowed Bradley Manning to be tortured. He has NOT foresworn culling all of our information and is still letting 40,000 (or better) employees listen to all our phone sex withuot cause and without warrants. The Drone may have killed "terrorists" but we may never know the real truth because, like Bush, it is just too damn hard to have a trial and allow Americans to know anything. AND that drone is now being deployed in the states where it will, undoubtedly, be used on citizens. But then, who cares about US citizens? Eh? And, if that doesn't express my ire well enough for you, he came in with some new ideas and dropped them all on the floor in "negotiations" before the "negotiations" even happened. His DoJ is pissing around while we lose voting rights and labor rights and women's rights and just PLAIN rights. Why should citizens be able to assemble and protest? Why should we be able to be free in our persons unless there is probably cause to search our persons and belongings. But try reading the constitution to the homeland security folks at the airport.

                      AND we have Timothy Geithner who has done less for the general population than anybody I know. I think a monkey could arrange things so HAMP worked. There is a thing on the web to see if you are eligible for help.  Don't worry about it I can tell you that most won't be. If you aren't in Freddie or Fannie Maes database you aren't and probably if your house payment is less than 30% of your gross income it won't be.  Even if your loan is underwater, tough tooties.

                      But you are afraid that if Obama isn't elected the sky will fall. What part of it other than more odious SCOTUS rulings do you think is left?

                      I tell you I am terrified that people will not wake up until we are all out in the streets, stripped of everything we own. If you think that is overkill, think about losing healthcare, pensions, SS. We already are seeing these go down the drain and we already seeing people so totally in debt they may never recover because of student loans and medical bills. And this will be facilitated by the very folks we trusted in 08.

                      Clothes make the man. Naked people have little or no influence on society. - Mark Twain

                      by glitterscale on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 03:59:20 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  It's always funny (0+ / 0-)

                        how those who scream the loudest about being defined by others are always so quick to define others. Who are you to tell me what I'm afraid of?

                        We've lost much, my little purist. But we've also gained much. The right of gay men and women to openly serve in the military. Protection from health insurance rescission or being denied due to preexisting conditions. The auto industry saved from near-annihilation,and with it millions of jobs.  The Lily Ledbetter fair pay act. An end to waterboarding, whether you admit it or not. All kinds of things.

                        I know that sometimes saying "Do not let the perfect be the enemy of the good" is trite, but at least we should not let our demands for ideological purity lead us to conclude that there is no appreciable difference between the guy who's not good enough and anyone else.

                        We have just enough religion to make us hate, but not enough to make us love one another. -- Jonathan Swift

                        by raptavio on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 04:46:40 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

            •  You're Partially Right. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Deep Texan, kalmoth

              6 tips and 3 recs so far. The reason "half the site" isn't reccing this up is because it's such a flaming bag of fail diary. Reasonable users don't want their recommendations and tips going anywhere near this.

              Will Rogers was right.

              by kefauver on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 12:12:59 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  15 Tips and 5 Recs Now. (0+ / 0-)

              You can tell the Obama haters by those who tipped and recced this piece of shit diary.

              Will Rogers was right.

              by kefauver on Tue Nov 08, 2011 at 08:54:43 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  The diary might go nowhere and so many (0+ / 0-)

            voters will.

            I remember days when people could write here what they wanted  to and not get bullied into submission. Who decides who is ignorant?

        •  Half? (11+ / 0-)

          I'm a socialist, and I think the diary is...how to put it delicately?...unhelpful and overwrought.  I'm not happy with what we've got, and I'm frequently critical, but in the world that exists, we could do a lot worse.

          At the very least, the diarist seems not to have heard of John Mitchell and Edwin Meese, two former Attorneys General who make Eric Holder look positively sterling.

          •  They also (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            TomP, MrJayTee, Deep Texan

            did not read a particular blog :)

            by the time Holder took office, fraud in mortgage origination was hardly a priority -- the collapse of the bubble meant that wall st. had run out of suckers to buy the notes.

            "This world demands the qualities of youth: not a time of life but a state of mind[.]" -- Robert F. Kennedy

            by Loge on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 09:43:59 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  I agree with a lot of what this (11+ / 0-)

            diary says -- I think Obama's been a bad bank-loving president -- but I reject the notion that the country's fortunes depend on who sits in the White House. If we're fucked till 2017, it's not because Obama is president, and if we're going to un-fuck ourselves it's not going to be by electing someone else president. A decent president will emerge only by changing the country first. A system owned by Wall Street can only produce a pro-Wall Street pres.

            •  Necessary vs. Sufficient. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              rcnewton, Johnny Q

              Electing a good President doesn't solve the problem, but nothing solves anything with a bad President.

              Good leadership is a necessary condition for taking on a crisis.

              The two things Teabaggers hate most are: being called racists; and black people.

              "It takes balls to execute an innocent man." -- anonymous GOP focus group member on Rick Perry

              by Punditus Maximus on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 10:03:59 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  A-ha! (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                raptavio, Deep Texan

                you are all about the personality after all.  They only thing you see distinguishing you from critics is being completely convinced beyond persuasion you are correct.   What with the Latin/Sanskrit hybrid.

                "This world demands the qualities of youth: not a time of life but a state of mind[.]" -- Robert F. Kennedy

                by Loge on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 10:35:48 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Ah, Loge, I can always count on you (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  khereva

                  to misrepresent about what I just said.  

                  I think Obama's doing a bad job.  That has nothing to do with his personality, only his fitness for office.  As has been mentioned before, I think Obama's actually a pretty cool dude, and I'd love to spend time with him in other circumstances.

                  The two things Teabaggers hate most are: being called racists; and black people.

                  "It takes balls to execute an innocent man." -- anonymous GOP focus group member on Rick Perry

                  by Punditus Maximus on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 11:44:40 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  we've had this before, (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Deep Texan, mallyroyal, elmo

                    and i explained my defense of Obama was precisely that I don't believe in the great man theory of history.  The president does not make the nation in his will, the best he does is triage.  This is, in your view, assuming he is powerless, which is significantly more false than anything here.  You said he lacks leadership.  I think he is exercising leadership on these issues, while at the same time doing 10 other things that each require attention.  

                    In some respects he did indeed fail to pass his most recent jobs bill -- but what long term benefit did he get out of it?  Ask the wrong questions, you get the wrong answers.

                    Having met him, I don't really think he's that cool a dude, actually.  I like his regulatory tsar more.

                    "This world demands the qualities of youth: not a time of life but a state of mind[.]" -- Robert F. Kennedy

                    by Loge on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 12:05:08 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

      •  "moths to a flame"? More like "flies to shit". ;) (0+ / 0-)
    •  You do like to infer the absurd. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      khereva

      The closing sentiment of the diary is a compound thought.

      I'll break it down to individual chunks so you can understand it:

      1) Supporting Obama is silly
      2) Nevertheless, Obama would be better than any of the Republican candidates (because he'll be less vile)

      That your brain filters that to "trying to get people to be anti-Dem" reveals more about you than it does about anything else. In particular, it's further evidence that you're on some hide-behind-the-skirts-of-authority crusade to try to paint people who are critical of Obama as being in violation of one of the site's rules.

      •  or, I could have had my own honest reaction (0+ / 0-)

        to the words written.  either way.

        and I didn't say I thought this would get the diarist banned.  quite the opposite (though it seems I was wrong and you're among a select few who dig this crap.)

        This comment is dedicated to my mellow Adept2U and his Uncle Marcus

        by mallyroyal on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 04:57:35 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  You certainly had a reaction. (0+ / 0-)

          But I'm not sure I'd characterize it as "to the words written."

          The two things Teabaggers hate most are: being called racists; and black people.

          "It takes balls to execute an innocent man." -- anonymous GOP focus group member on Rick Perry

          by Punditus Maximus on Sun Nov 13, 2011 at 08:13:49 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  Sorry, but I'll (15+ / 0-)

    actively support and contribute to Obama's reelection campaign.  I don't like a lot of the things he has done (or has failed to do) but the alternative is far, far worse.

    •  Interesting. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      rcnewton

      Usually I figure the 1% takes enough money from me that I don't have to donate mine to them.  But, whatever floats your boat.  It's your money.

      The two things Teabaggers hate most are: being called racists; and black people.

      "It takes balls to execute an innocent man." -- anonymous GOP focus group member on Rick Perry

      by Punditus Maximus on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 10:04:31 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Punditus Maximus' failed diary..redux (6+ / 0-)

    My best guess was a reflection that did not look back, an image lost in every mirror.

    by Zacapoet on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 09:27:22 AM PST

  •  this is naive (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Jerry056, Loge, Deep Texan, fcvaguy, Dancun74

    if you want a pure ideologue/man of the people, outsider, or whatever it is you want, vote for herman cain. as it is, the President has done a great job under some very impossible circumstances. we so easily forget health care reform, which was such a huge fight, and took up most of the first year of his term. then we look back and say things like, "why didnt' he do this, and this, and..." then, since nobody voted in 2010, we lost the House and have only a small margin in the Senate. most state legislatures/governorships went to GOP. now we have a lot of extreme legislation and regressive bills being passed, and you want to blame the President. blame everyone who didn't vote last November. no President is perfect and if you expect radical change, please remember that a full third to a half of all Americans think that the same President you think is a sell-out, is a radical. go occupy that.

    "The kernel which is sown in earth, must fall to pieces so that the ear of grain may sprout from it. Strength cannot be resurrected until it has dwelt in great secrecy." Pinhas of Koretz

    by Never2Late4Change on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 09:27:57 AM PST

    •  Its now naive now to not expect corruption (5+ / 0-)

      I used the term "inverted totalitarianism" of which you are expousing to explain how we no longer live in a democracy once it is naive to not expect compentency or a lack of corruption. You are pushing one plank of the approach to the authoritarian sturcture- that of corruption as acceptable norm

       

      First, whereas in Nazi Germany the state dominated economic actors, in inverted totalitarianism corporations and their lobbying dominate the Superpower, with the government acting as the servant of large corporations. This isn't considered corruption, but "normal".

      http://en.wikipedia.org/...

      The rest of your comment is typically babble that has nothing to do with the subject being discussed. If you can't stay on topic, that means you don't have a defense. You have excuses to make yourself feel better about the situation.

      •  where have you been? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        fcvaguy
        Its now naive now to not expect corruption

        We're talking about American politics/government.  This isn't a new thing.

        •  Key word "expect" (0+ / 0-)

          There's a difference between understanding it will exist, and coming on here advocating for it as partisans now do as something that should be accepted.

          Murders have been happening since the start of the species. That doesn't mean that someone should be on here going "well murders happen, and you should just be okay with a crime currently being committed"

          Its a fundamentally flawed analysis. What does exist has nothing to do withwhat kind of society you should be fighting to live in. You are never going to end it completely, but you can and it has happened in the past, reduce it. There is no one arguing "this is wrong, and let's reducing it." They are arguing,  this is happening,w hat can you do about, our guys do it too , yeah, but hey, at least theya ren't as bad as the others.

          Often without mentioning exactly how they are better than the others.  When I point out that a 20 billion dollar settlemtn is nothing in a debate over the mortgage crisis- I am told I need to prove my point here but when the received wisdom that the other guy is far worse is stated- this is supposed by just understood as true.

          The former has a great deal of data to back it up. The later has a lot of this is how I feels to back it up.

          •  there will never be a government (0+ / 0-)

            that is free of corruption.

            there is no such thing as a perfect candidate or political party.  it's always a choice and for each individual that choice is based on a multitude of factors.  by it's very nature there will always be one greater than the other in some way to each of us for possibly different reasons.

            •  You are arguing a straw man (0+ / 0-)

              I gave you a pass the first time in assuming you didn't understand me

              But now you are just repeating the same straw man argument about perfection.

              And then you babble on about perfect candidates and parties never responding to the specific criticism.

              As I said, partisans, you are predictable and boring on some level.

              Let me know when you are actually ready to debate the argument being made rather than the one you are making up to justify crapping on this diary with other partisans.

  •  Guilty until proven innocent (12+ / 0-)

    That is what you post sounds like to me. You cite no criminal acts; you name no names; you cite no evidence; you do not bother to identify the laws that have been broken.

    And yet you accuse the Justice Department of total incompetence for failing to prosecute unspecified individuals for unspecified crimes.

    •  Due diligence is a basic core ethical duty in law (14+ / 0-)

      (a) There isn't a question of whether or not these issues discussed should have been researched. That only leaves the choices as to why they were not researched? By all accounts Holder is a competent lawyer. So are the stafff of the DOJ. The reality that they were would not do their due diligence to research the issue being discussed is gross incompetence for a lawyer. This isn't a close call discussion.

      (b) We keep finding ourselves here. No matter who does what in the administration, there is "never enough evidence". And you and I both know for some of you there never will be. Its all emotions 24/7.

      Can you explain, for example, how supporting the settlement for the mortgage crisis issue before investigating is a matter of "speculation" as to not being a good idea, and in fact is a corrupt one? Yet the administration supports it.

      (c) Of course, as I write below, there is a deeper problem here. Its a problem born o ut of the fact that we are living in a corrupt Oligarchy so its not at all clear that it matters anymore who is President. The best one can come up with is the supreme court nominees, but even that is suspect.

      (d) Finally,

      •  on the mortgage settlement, (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Deep Texan, foufou, elmo

        they can study legal cases, econ damages estimates, and the ongoing negotiations likely do involve informal document exchanges and a tolling agreement.  The banks know their liability risk, and it's telling that the threat of opt-outs didn't lead them to up their offer.  Combined with the prospect of money up front to keep people in their homes, the deal might not be perfect, but it's not necessarily corrupt or unreasonable.

        I'm not sure what you mean also by due diligence -- once the bubble burst in 2007, credit crunch to follow, I don't see why the writing of mortgage loans should be a priority, and as for foreclosures, they got the banks to the table with an offer to put money where it might to the most good to boost the economy generally -- principal reductions to avert the need for future foreclosures, and a consent decree that makes it much easier to prosecute future violations.  Not perfect, but not necessarily corrupt or unreasonable.

        "This world demands the qualities of youth: not a time of life but a state of mind[.]" -- Robert F. Kennedy

        by Loge on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 09:51:09 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  You are making shit up to defend the president (9+ / 0-)

          (a) Holder was asked a question that were he investigating the issue he should have known the answer to. Not a close call issue.

          (b) Separately, no one in their right mind who knows anything about the subject considers the mortgage negotation to be anything other than a give away. I am not going to spend my day negotiating the shit people here make up to make themselves feel better.

          For the record, I stopped taking you seriously when you wrote to keep people in their homes. This is just the typical spin job on this site by partisans rather than remotely dealing in reality.

          I am sure someone will say I should spend my day arguing with these absurd arguments, but to be quite frank, I am realizing there is no point to it. Your arguments are absurd on their face and have no reality to them other than some partisans can convince themselves its true.

          •  it's possible i'm mistaken, (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            lcj98, Deep Texan, foufou

            and i allowed that possibility.  "nobody who knows anything" conveniently defines the universe of acceptable opinion in the way you want it defined.  i think even the state  attorneys general have suggested no more than error of judgment, but the banks don't seem particularly afraid of going to trial against them.  making it up implies deliberate deception on my part, and i don't regret your unwillingness to engage further, and i stopped taking your points seriously when you didn't come up with an explanation of how to get more money to benefit homeowners, faster.  anyway, why would holder be investigating crimes taking place before 2004 in 2010?  SOL.

            "This world demands the qualities of youth: not a time of life but a state of mind[.]" -- Robert F. Kennedy

            by Loge on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 10:21:10 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I love OWS (4+ / 0-)

              Want to know why.

              A year ago I would spend all day debating someone like you because I wondered if lurkers didn't get that you were bullshitting.

              Now, I don't have do that.

              Keep bullshit. Keep convincing yourselves that you are right. The clock is ticking on all of that.

              •  nice non sequitur (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Deep Texan

                i assure you i'm not bullshitting, by the way.  i don't mind being called wrong.  I do mind being called a dissembler.

                what any of that has to do with OWS is beyond me.  Is this some sort of strength in numbers argument?  I agree with most of what they say, in the abstract.  $25 billion to settle a case is a decent indication that I think the conduct was not good.  If OWS means you don't have to concern yourself with details or deciding among conflicting interests and priorities, well you're making the one criticism I would make for me.  

                "This world demands the qualities of youth: not a time of life but a state of mind[.]" -- Robert F. Kennedy

                by Loge on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 10:41:31 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  I'm in the same place. (0+ / 0-)

                Now there's somewhere positive to put my energy, and I can let the pro-Obama folks fool themselves away from me.

                The two things Teabaggers hate most are: being called racists; and black people.

                "It takes balls to execute an innocent man." -- anonymous GOP focus group member on Rick Perry

                by Punditus Maximus on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 02:14:27 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Its that moment in 2006 when I realized (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  joanneleon

                  the bush ardent supporters were becoming irrelevant to the natinonal debate

                  the same is happening here

                  i just don't feel like arguing with people who have it as their sole strategy to fog up arguments and or deny deny deny

                  it simply isn't credible anymore what they are doing. this is 2011, not 2009

      •  Oh please... (5+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Loge, raptavio, Deep Texan, Dancun74, elmo
        Its a problem born out of the fact that we are living in a corrupt Oligarchy so its not at all clear that it matters anymore who is President. The best one can come up with is the supreme court nominees, but even that is suspect.

        Overwrought cynicism at it's finest...  A "corrupt oligarchy" is Russia.  The USA is far far far from anything like that.  Sure, there may be some faint parallels but to make a ridiculous claim like that you have to come with cold-hard facts to prove your point.  Saying the administration is supporting corruption because it did something you didn't like and/or fully know about doesn't make it corrupt.  Corruption is a little different than "he's not Liberal enough".

        "Math is a theory, so it's not taught in the Bible."

        by lcj98 on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 10:20:30 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Deciding on an answer without having (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Johnny Q, khereva, BradyB

          investigated is one of the core principles of corruption because one has decided based on who someone is rather than what they did.

          You can call that whatever you want to call it. Given the level of ignorance here-t hat due diligence is now "optional" I expect no less.

          You are all for the most partisans rather than people with any actual knowledge of the subject beyond your emotions.

          I am sure you do know enough history to be dangerours becuase you don't know enough of what I mean by due diligence to understand what this means for me in practice that a lawyer would not investigate in further detail to be aware enough to know what he was dealing with in a case or an investigation o which he was in charge.

        •  This is not a reality-based statement (0+ / 0-)

          There's a reason people like Krugman have also been using the "oligarchy" word to describe the US.

          It's not b/c we're precisely equivalent to Russia, but b/c the US is exhibiting all the features of an oligarchy generally - massive wealth concentration into the hands of a small minority at the top who are above the law and who run the government solely for their interests.

          Btw, presumably you've heard of Krugman. He's the world's most famous living economist and also the one with the best economic prediction record the past five years.

          It might be time to walk back your statement that we're "far far far" from anything like what Krugman says is the case.

  •  I get that you're upset (9+ / 0-)

    And there are many things about Obama's presidency that we should be upset about and work to change. But frankly, at this point, the possible alternatives to Obama's re-election in 2012 are far scarier than Obama.

    Some argue that there is no difference, but that is simply not true. We have almost 50 million Americans now living in poverty, and right now--for me--that is one of the most pressing concerns.

    Do you know about Maslow's hierarchy of needs? I know it's received criticism, but some of its basic tenets are worth considering. People who are worried about how they will feed their children or afford medical care or how they will stay in their homes or whether they will ever find work do not have the energy to worry about the things going on at higher levels.

    We need to support democrats right now and minimize the power of the extreme insane right so that we can continue to push things left, left, and left. We need to do this because it is the best shot we have right now of helping those 50 million Americans living in poverty. They need us, and unfortunately, we need Obama more than we need Mitt Romney or any of his colleagues who think health care should be replaced with charity and that those people who don't even know where they will find their next meal aren't paying enough taxes.

    Say what you will about Obama, but at least he's not pushing for those things. At least he's supporting more educational opportunities, more access to healthcare, and help for those 50 million Americans.

    So, for now, can't we just stop trying to tear down what remains the best opportunity we have--even if it's not a golden one--to help our fellow Americans in need and instead tear down what is really wrong with this country, which is corporate greed and gross inequality?

    We Won't Let Republicans Replace Medicare with GOP Vouchercare!

    by CatM on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 09:31:10 AM PST

  •  Your diary presupposes "a better Democrat" (7+ / 0-)

    The analysis itself- I came to about Obama in early 2011.

    It remains only  for me a complicated question of how to change things in the long term, because I do not forsee any of the national Democrats being any  better. I don't think there are any "better Democrats." The choices are right wingers or capitulators who do so to stay in power because they are dealing with a corrupt system.

    The problem, which this site actively glosses over, is that the party leadership has a lot of incompetence, and I would add that the system in both parties is structurally corrupt, and ultimately both parties historically have been center right to far right and are shifting each cycle further right.

    I don't think there are any short term solutions to this. I don't think things will change by 2017 whether Obama is President or not. I guess what I am saying is I don't think he matters because I don't think there are "better Democrats," which waiting until 2017 assumes there are. This is what I came to in early 2011. He doesn't matter because he's more of the same whether its him or someone else. The solutions aren't going to come from them. It comes from understanding that they are a part of a long standing corrupt system.

    •  I agree it's a lesser of two evils issue... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      bruh1

      but every so often someone vaults on to the political landscape and captures the imagination of a nation the way JFK (or better yet RFK) did.  

      I thought Obama was that guy.  I was wrong.  He's not.

      If the purpose of this site and the democratic party in general is to get democrats elected, then we have to be willing to ask difficult questions like this one and challenge our own orthodoxy to get better answers.

      Paradoxically, the party has to ultimately come together when it counts and narrow the platform to the issues that capture the imagination and votes of the undecided voters.

      I don't see Obama as a great leader.  maybe he will grow in to one, but it's getting late in his presidency for that to happen.

      I choose to believe that there are 'better democrats' out there because it's a party of ideas and convictions and I know there have to be leaders among us who can capture those conversations and lead around them.

      •  I gave you a recommend for 2 reasons (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        vipersdad

        (a) although I disagree with your conclusions you at least engage me on the actual concerns. this is a standard that's low, but its one that given some of the responses here i respect. the second reason is a higher standard--

        (b) i do think its important not to give up. your desire for better is definitely something I agree with. that although you may have to fight for it, its something worth fighting.

        thanks for the thoughtful comment

        •  thanks for the honest debate (0+ / 0-)

          I really want to love Obama.

          I also believe having read the comments up and down the page, that standards for discourse are set very low where this type of topic is in play.  

          The rush to ad-hominem comments disturbs me.  I usually come to DailyKos because of the range of thoughtful comments and general desire to engage in open and honest discourse.

          You don't agree with my conclusions and I respect that and respect your views.  We are both working for the same thing ultimately.  

          It's just my view that today we don't have it.  Again - I'm careful to say that these are my views.  While I can defend them with my reasons, I don't disparage anyones' views, whether or not they agree with me.

          I think altogether too often people come to BLOGs to have their own views both affirmed and galvanized, but not to hear any dischord or dissent.  I think a functioning democracy demands open dialog and it bothers me when people appear to be so defensive of what I perceive as their own orthodoxy.

          Anyways - thanks for the honest and constructive dialogue.  

          •  frankly obama plays very littl (0+ / 0-)

            into my thoughts about politics at this point.

            my main concern is the long term and what that means

            the only reason i commented at all in this diary is that i saw that the diarist was universally been attacked in an over the top manner

            he was overe the top in some ways, but the attack on what he was discussing wasn't and isn't justified

            when you have to say things like some h ave said along this thread to disagree with the diarist - like changing his argument or setting up a standard that no progressive should agree with like " corruption happens so why care here' as one person wrote to me, then there's a problem

            you aren't saying that. you are saying  let's make things better and lets figure out to do that etc

            its a very different apprioach than the disrepect of distorting arguments or calling people trolls or jumping into say someone is hostile with answering their questions etc

            its just a wholy different feel. one is I am trying to figure this out too, and the other is, i am not really here trying to figure out anything- my goal is to attack the diarist or to change the subject

  •  So tell us which Prez candidate you're supporting (11+ / 0-)

    If you're going to write an inflammatory diary like this, don't do it half-assed.  Don't be chicken.

    Cuz if you're not courageous enough to say, then this diary is complete and utter bullshit, and no one in their right mind will ever take you seriously again.

    Come on.  Tell us.

    Who do you advocate for Prez in 2012??

    •  There is a paragraph at the end of this diary. (5+ / 0-)

      I have no idea why it seems to be impossible for the respondents of this diary to read.

      It is too late to primary Obama.  So he gets my vote.  But it's incredibly stupid to waste our time and energy on his campaign.  Whether he wins or loses, oligarchy has the Presidency.  So we should spend our energy, as versus our votes, on building up infrastructure for another candidate.

      The two things Teabaggers hate most are: being called racists; and black people.

      "It takes balls to execute an innocent man." -- anonymous GOP focus group member on Rick Perry

      by Punditus Maximus on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 10:07:35 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Or just support none of them (0+ / 0-)

      I won't vote for a corrupt crook.  Obama is definitely a corrupt crook.  That the other option might be a slightly more corrupt crook who would shoot me with a gun rather than stab me with a knife isn't a choice, you're asking me to suffer slower so I can support your favorite pick for whatever silly reasons people support Obama, which boils down to cult of personality, or sports team mentality.

      I'm sick of choosing for the lesser evil, who is often a bold faced liar and just as evil.  If the Democrats manage to come up with a better alternative and he wins in the primary I'll vote D, if not, well I'm not going to be voting either D or R on the presidential ticket, I will vote for down ballot races though as my local officials here do not happen to be enablers of Wall Street fraud and destroyers of the middle class.  Plus it gives me a chance to vote for local issues involving funding and those are important, and will make far more of a difference than voting for crook one or crook two on the presidential ticket.

      We need better Democrats, end of story.  We need to go outside the box and stop electing ivy league perfect on paper oligarchs that are part of the one percent.  We need a labor candidate.  We need an angery firebrand to come out and directly assault the status quo.  Someone who wants to expand medicare and social security not shrink them.  

      And we are not going to get that by sucking up and voting for the elites time and time again.  That hasn't worked.  We've been burned every election since Raygun no matter what party was in office.

      "Foolproof systems don't take into account the ingenuity of fools."

      by overclocking on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 10:38:39 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Obama is a corrupt crook? (9+ / 0-)

        You're full of shit.  Link me to where this Prez has received illegal personal gain from any of his decisions.

        He may not be mistake-free (I challenge you to find me such a person, sort of the Virgin Mary), but a crook?

        Unadulterated bullshit!

        •  Keystone XL. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          khereva

          If you're gonna insult, try to be less utterly and completely wrong.

          The two things Teabaggers hate most are: being called racists; and black people.

          "It takes balls to execute an innocent man." -- anonymous GOP focus group member on Rick Perry

          by Punditus Maximus on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 11:51:03 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  How has he profited from it? (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            fcvaguy, tytalus

            Be specific.  Don't make shit up.  Let's see the charges.

            P.S.  You're aware no decision has been made, right?  Or is this just more of the bullshit pre-emptive accusation based on thin air.  You know, the sort of shit rightwingers do.

            And BTW, since YOU'RE agreeing  Obama's a crook, and you say you're voting for him anyway, WTF does that say about YOU?

            •  This is dumb. (0+ / 0-)

              You're hanging your hat on the question of whether Obama makes personal gain from his decisions or just fosters/tolerates a culture of corruption in his people.  It's a pointless semantic argument, made all the stupider for all the emotion behind it.

              Bush 43 didn't make a ton of money while in office, either.  And yet, his Administration was known for its corruption, because he ran a patronage machine which included the people under him.  So he was "corrupt," in the common usage of the word.

              And the Keystone XL pipeline has all the hallmarks of that corruption, as did the State Department's decision to continue employing Xe.  In fact, State has been one of the nastier areas of the Obama Administration in general.

              The two things Teabaggers hate most are: being called racists; and black people.

              "It takes balls to execute an innocent man." -- anonymous GOP focus group member on Rick Perry

              by Punditus Maximus on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 02:20:12 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

  •  I would support this (7+ / 0-)
    our energy should be spent on supporting good Congressional candidates

    Other than that, meh

    Listen, strange women lyin' in ponds distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.

    by EdMass on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 09:37:37 AM PST

  •  Its good to see the Idiot Wing of the (0+ / 0-)

    Democratic Party is still alive and kicking.

    Feel free to break away from the bankster Democrats and put your full energies toward that Liberal Progressive Superman that is going to swoop down and arrest every Banker in the World.

    You really need to get out of your parents basement.

  •  Why are people so reluctant to hide diaries? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    edwardssl, fcvaguy

    If you really think it should be hidden according to the prevailing norm, hide it!  I used to never hide anything, but now that Markos and Co. have been more explicit about what constitutes hideable content, I am much more willing to do it.  

    But nobody's buying flowers from the flower lady.

    by Rich in PA on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 09:49:17 AM PST

    •  because hiding is undemocratic (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Knarfc

      suppression of ideas is a very undemocratic trait.

      you have the option of disagreeing.

      I am somewhat taken aback by the visceral reaction to these ideas, as if they challenge some fundamental ideas.

      It is 2011 (still).  I am (like many on this and other sites) disappointed to say the least with Mr. Obama's record thus far.  I hold out hope that he will wake up and actually become a democrat.

      I have to recall the very early days of the internet and blogs and all of the dialog about how great Bill Clinton was and what a great Democrat he was.

      Now I hear cries of "glass-stegall," and "corporatist," and "free trader," and I wonder where all of that "best Democrat" talk went.

      If you are not talking about this stuff because you don't think the Repubs know Obama's weakness, think again and don't underestimate our opponent.

      Remember that it was energy and young people that pushed Obama's surge ahead.  Hopefully OWS works for Obama.  Disenfranchised young people with few job prospects and trillions in student loans.....who also have seen another 4 years of continuations of many of Bush's policies....may not bother to vote.

      I will work for him because I'm a good (Democrat) soldier.

      I cannot hide my disappointment, and if you choose to, you are doing this site and your party a disservice.

      •  That's just crazy talk. (0+ / 0-)

        This isn't a Yahoo comments thread, it's a website with a purpose that's formally enshrined.  If you're against that purpose, you shouldn't be here and if you don't have the decency and self-control to stay away then others are fully within their rights to keep you away.

        But nobody's buying flowers from the flower lady.

        by Rich in PA on Tue Nov 08, 2011 at 05:28:36 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Hiding this diary is a violation of that purpose. (0+ / 0-)

          More and better Democrats.

          That's the point -- that the Obama partisans are incapable of discerning between Obama's well-being and that of either the party or the country.

          The two things Teabaggers hate most are: being called racists; and black people.

          "It takes balls to execute an innocent man." -- anonymous GOP focus group member on Rick Perry

          by Punditus Maximus on Sun Nov 13, 2011 at 08:16:54 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  Failed . . . Really? (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    oldcrow, Deep Texan, Loge, Dancun74, fcvaguy

    I am gobsmacked that you claim President Obama is a failure based on this article, or this one subject.

    You appear to be taking the position that Eric Holder (who took the position of Attorney General on February 2, 2009) was not adequately briefed by his staff for a Commission hearing in January of 2010.  And this makes President Obama a failure?

    Aren't you forgetting that:
    1) The Justice Department was actively hiring 'the right kind of people' under the Bush administration (and getting rid of the 'wrong' kind of people)
    2) It would have been illegal to just go through and fire all of the wing nuts (like it was illegal to hire on this basis in the first place)
    3) President Obama did not brief Holder
    4) The Justice Department is supposed to be separate from the Executive Branch of Government

    I am not saying that the failure for Holder to know this was not a bad thing.  But to say that Obama is a failure because of it is a road to long to walk for me.

    If President Obama was indeed a failure, we would be sitting in the middle of the 2nd great depression, kids age 19 - 26 would not be on their parents health insurance, my insurance would have a lifetime limit of $500K, we would not be pulling troops our of Iraq, Bin Laden would still be alive, gays would not be serving openly in the military . . . the list goes on and on.

    It is unfortunate that you used this framing for your diary.  There are some things in here that are important to look at.  But quite frankly what you have to say is getting lost in the failure language.

    If you can not give President Obama any credit for what he has gotten correct, people will be less likely to listen to what you have to say.

    I do not believe President Obama is a failure, and instead of persuading me to your opinion, you are convincing me that the man can not get a break (even from his supposed supporters).

    Is he as successful as he could have been?  No, but it is not because he isn't trying.  Diaries like this do not help the issue.

    If you want to blame someone for what you describe in your diary, go after Holder, or the people who briefed him.  President Obama can not fire people who work at the Justice Department, but Eric Holder can.

    •  Obama is failed (0+ / 0-)

      because 9% unemployment for three years outside of the Great Depression is failure.  

      To Obama, 9% unemployment is the New Normal.

      The two things Teabaggers hate most are: being called racists; and black people.

      "It takes balls to execute an innocent man." -- anonymous GOP focus group member on Rick Perry

      by Punditus Maximus on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 10:08:59 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  naaah, more like Republicans have (5+ / 0-)

        stalled or watered down every effort made by Obama and the Dems to help the economy.

        but to you that means Obama failed.  says lots about you rather than what you think about Obama.

      •  When Obama took office (5+ / 0-)

        the country was loosing thousands (if not hundreds of thousands) of jobs each month.

        He stopped that trend, and the economy is gaining jobs.  Not as rapidly as we would like.  But it is a fact.

        Again, to blame him for the 9% unemployment, but not to give him credit for stopping the hemorrhaging is disingenuous.

        President Obama has admitted that the economy was worse off than anyone understood, and that the stimulus was not big enough.  He understands that it helped, but that it was not enough.

        He has put forth proposals to improve this situation - even real legislation that republicans (and some dems) are blocking.  This is not his failure.

        That is like blaming the quarter back for a completed pass that the receiver caught, ran ten yards then fumbled.  

        If you want to blame President Obama for everything that is wrong, you can find data that supports your premiss.  Things like the deficit is bigger than it has ever been or the current unemployment numbers.  But if you stop there, and do not look at the underlying cause of those numbers you are helping no one.

        We can not fix problems if we are too lazy to understand the underlying cause of those problems.  

        •  So you disagree (0+ / 0-)

          that 9% unemployment for three years is failure.

          Well, maybe 9% unemployment for six years will be.  

          The two things Teabaggers hate most are: being called racists; and black people.

          "It takes balls to execute an innocent man." -- anonymous GOP focus group member on Rick Perry

          by Punditus Maximus on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 11:51:45 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  nope, it's actually good considering the (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            avsp, fcvaguy, edwardssl, SilverWillow

            circumstances.

          •  Wow. (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Deep Texan, fcvaguy, SilverWillow

            That's what you got from SilverWillow's post? I'm not perfectly pleased with the job the president has done, but to reduce the argument to the unemployment numbers in isolation is intellectually lazy at best, and dishonest at worst.

            "Pay no attention to those obfuscating obstructionist congress critters behind the curtain. President Obama is solely to blame for all your troubles." Jeez Louise!!

          •  I disagree with (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            avsp, Deep Texan, fcvaguy

            your premise that the 9% unemployment rate is President Obama's fault, hence he is a failure.

            This is like saying there are 50 people rushed to the emergency room and the one doctor on duty only saved 25 of the people, so that one doctor is a failure because he let half of the people die.

            No consideration is given to the state of the people when they came in, no blame assigned to the administrators who only staffed the emergency room with one doctor, etc.

            When you take a single statistic and assign the word failure to an entire presidency because of it, that seems to me to be disingenuous at best.  At worst, it appears that you are looking for reasons to say he is a failure.

            You can always find things to support your premise, as long as you are willing to hang it off of a single statistic or piece of information without looking at the total picture.

            •  I think Obama has failed (0+ / 0-)

              to seriously take on unemployment, because his economic ideology is not up to the task.  

              Remember, it was Obama who forced us to discuss "the deficit" for a year.  It wasn't the Republicans.  Obama is one of the austerians, and that means that this mess is as much his fault as the rest of them.

              The two things Teabaggers hate most are: being called racists; and black people.

              "It takes balls to execute an innocent man." -- anonymous GOP focus group member on Rick Perry

              by Punditus Maximus on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 02:21:39 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Just wow . . . (0+ / 0-)

                as for this

                Remember, it was Obama who forced us to discuss "the deficit" for a year.  It wasn't the Republicans.

                No I don't remember it this way.  

                And with this comment I am going to respectfully disengage.

                •  This is not an informed comment (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  bruh1

                  Obama's top economic priority 18 months prior to introducing his jobs bill was deficit reduction.

                  This began with the discretionary spending freeze announced in the 1/10 SOTU address, and continued until the "grand bargain" debt ceiling negotiations fell apart in 8/11.

                  •  One of the issues continue (0+ / 0-)

                    to be that the Democratic base aren't given facts, but instead are rallied to support the team so they say absurd things that can easily be disproven. Its not reality based arguments. Just "this is my team" and so I am offended regardless of whether a criticism is true or not. So they spend a lot of time trying to derail the arguments rather than analyzing whether theya re true. The difference being that derailments are not about trying to assess arguments. They are about destroying the messenger , fogging up the conversation with irreelvancies, spin, making absurd statements, etc. Lucklily the time for this sort of approach is quickly passing. Even if Obama wins next year, I predict he will not do anything for 4 years because of how he wins, which will be as the lesser of two evils.

                  •  It's as informed (0+ / 0-)

                    as the commenter cares for it to be.

                    The two things Teabaggers hate most are: being called racists; and black people.

                    "It takes balls to execute an innocent man." -- anonymous GOP focus group member on Rick Perry

                    by Punditus Maximus on Fri Nov 11, 2011 at 11:24:13 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

            •  it's not Obama's fault (0+ / 0-)

              It's Bush's... you could argue that Clinton bore some of the blame with the repeal of glass-stegall.

              since we all agree it was Bush's fault....
              then why continue Bush's monetary policies?
              why extend the tax cuts for the wealthy?
              why continue his energy policies?
              why escalate the war in Afghanistan?
              why leave Gitmo open?
              why surround himself with the very people who crashed the economy and take their advice?

              Why appease the republicans time and again, looking for some mythical middle ground that does not exist with the likes of them?

              And moreover
              Why accept the conservative narrative on the debt crisis and "austerity?"
              Why even entertain the notion that it's ok to cut social security and medicare?  

              Why not stand in his bully pulpit and scream "no way you fuckers are going to touch this stuff!!!!" as loud as he can.  KNOWING that over 70% of the American People want to hear that.

              You can argue that the republicans are at fault for all that too.....

              You can - but he can't make that argument....

              He's the President of the United States of America.

              He's supposed to lead.

  •  Eric Holder doesn't read someone's blog, (12+ / 0-)

    and that's cause for our nation to collectively soil its undies?

    Happy early Thursday!

    "[R]ather high-minded, if not a bit self-referential"--The Washington Post.

    by Geekesque on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 10:01:29 AM PST

    •  Glad you found a nit to pick. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Knarfc

      It's important to have goals.

      The two things Teabaggers hate most are: being called racists; and black people.

      "It takes balls to execute an innocent man." -- anonymous GOP focus group member on Rick Perry

      by Punditus Maximus on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 10:09:30 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  The point is to raise as much dust as possible (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        khereva

        so that the whole subject you are raising is fogged up.

        As I wrote below, the point the writer of the actual article at NK is making is that this is not something that should have been so easily missed by anyone actually interested in investigating the matter, as far as my understanding of what is being said. The interpretation that "oh the writer's ego wanted the AG to read NK" is so absurd as to be deliberate misdirection.

        •  The dust was raised by the diarist. (7+ / 0-)

          You're just the guy standing in the cloud and claiming it's clarity.

          We have just enough religion to make us hate, but not enough to make us love one another. -- Jonathan Swift

          by raptavio on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 10:50:27 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  the vast bulk of the idary (0+ / 0-)

            is quoted text from an article that the aboe person who you are racing in to protect (geekesque) deliberately distorts.

            So, I don't care how many of you fanatics keep claiming you aren't trying to fog up the conversation. the truth is pretty clear on its face the problem is thatyou are extreme partisans who would never admit even basic facts like due diligence for lawyers is not something one can debate reasonably.

            •  People in glass houses... (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              tytalus

              I'm all for criticisms of Obama's fiscal policy and ill-advised embrace of austerity.

              Where the diarist loses me, and loses anyone who chooses to engage critical thinking skills, is in two things:

              One, in asserting equivalence between Bush and Obama;
              Two, in asserting active malice against Americans on the part of Obama.

              The former is just stupid on its face.
              The latter is particularly egregious in that as a prerequisite the diarist must believe or at least claim to know Obama's mind, what he's thinking, what his intentions are. And it also echoes right-wing "he's not one of us; he's an enemy of America" racist memes in ways that are particularly unsavory.

              No, dear bruh1, it's not me who is the fanatic, it's you. It's you who will drink at the trough of any anti-Obama screed, regardless of its grounding in fact or reality. You are the fanatic who cannot find a criticism of this President too stupid or false to cheer on with enthusiasm. And you project your fanaticism onto others who reside in the reality based community.

              We have just enough religion to make us hate, but not enough to make us love one another. -- Jonathan Swift

              by raptavio on Tue Nov 08, 2011 at 10:33:39 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Thank you. (0+ / 0-)

                By continuing to claim that my diary has a meaning which is never found in the words contained within it, you confirm that all criticism is in bad faith.

                Which is great!  A lot of people reading this were iffy on the premise until the Obama partisans were so awful in their response.  If y'all had ignored it, there wouldn't have even been a ripple.  But the virulence of the response confirms the idea that support for Obama is about the cult of personality, rather than about hope for what's best in this country.

                The two things Teabaggers hate most are: being called racists; and black people.

                "It takes balls to execute an innocent man." -- anonymous GOP focus group member on Rick Perry

                by Punditus Maximus on Sun Nov 13, 2011 at 08:20:27 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Five days later (0+ / 0-)

                  you wander by your dead thread to claim a victory which doesn't exist?

                  Brilliant.

                  I'd bother to point your specific words that support my statements, but nobody but you will read it and I know you're inured to fact. Have a nice day.

                  We have just enough religion to make us hate, but not enough to make us love one another. -- Jonathan Swift

                  by raptavio on Sun Nov 13, 2011 at 09:05:59 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Thanks again! (0+ / 0-)

                    Your need to reply, if you view the conversation as over, is yet more support for my approach.

                    Have a good'n yourself.  I could never have succeeded in this diary without your assistance.

                    The two things Teabaggers hate most are: being called racists; and black people.

                    "It takes balls to execute an innocent man." -- anonymous GOP focus group member on Rick Perry

                    by Punditus Maximus on Sun Nov 13, 2011 at 09:08:11 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

    •  Reading comprehension (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      TheMomCat

      The key statement was this:

      "Chairman Angelides asked Holder to explain the actions the Department of Justice (DOJ) took in response to the FBI’s warning in September 2004 that mortgage fraud was “epidemic” and its prediction that if the fraud epidemic were not contained it would cause a financial “crisis.” Holder testified: “I’m not familiar myself with that [FBI] statement.”

      Not what you cherry picked from the article, which was clearly written to underscore the investigation as including something that even a blog like Naked Capitalism knew about, and that, therefore, certainly someone leading an investigation on the subject should be aware.

      Your interpretation is the absurdist view of a partisan.

      •  You are aware that Eric Holder was not AG (7+ / 0-)

        from the years 2004 through 2008, correct?

        Also, note that this FBI report portrayed banks as the victims, not the perpetrators, of mortgage fraud.

        "[R]ather high-minded, if not a bit self-referential"--The Washington Post.

        by Geekesque on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 10:46:13 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  To a lawyer (0+ / 0-)

          (a) you didn't respond to my criticism of you, which is that you were not reading the article correctly

          (b) You also make an absurd statement about lawyers not being responsible for investigating anything beyond when they are the head of an organization. History did not begin when Holder started office, and nor does his investigation begin and end with when he started off. That's absurd for obvious reasons. The fact 4 people recommended the obvious absuridity underscores the point that this is not about reasoning.

          (c) The link is right there for anyone to read at NK, which appaarently again the 4 did not bother to do.  I expect you to now attack by appeal to authority next. Don't bother.

  •  TrollBeGone! (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Deep Texan, cacamp, kefauver, fcvaguy

    Apply directly to the tip jar!
    Apply directly to the tip jar!
    Apply directly to the tip jar!
    Apply directly to the tip jar!
    Apply directly to the tip jar!

  •  Punditus Maximus' failed diary. (11+ / 0-)

    "Obama sucks, so vote for him anyway."
    This is supposed to inspire me to do what, precisely?

    "That the people have a right to bear arms for the defence of themselves and the State ..."- Vermont Constitution Chapter 1, Article 16

    by kestrel9000 on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 10:20:00 AM PST

    •  it's a have-cake-eat-too (6+ / 0-)

      type comment at the end.  If he thinks it gives him additional credibility, he's sorely mistaken.

      "This world demands the qualities of youth: not a time of life but a state of mind[.]" -- Robert F. Kennedy

      by Loge on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 10:46:11 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Loge, I would like you (0+ / 0-)

        to insult me as much as possible, personally.  I would consider any sort of compliment from you to be a sign that I did something very wrong.

        I'm sorry that you're so angry that some people don't like Obama that you have to follow them around and say false things about them.  But that's about you and your needs, and I accept that.

        The two things Teabaggers hate most are: being called racists; and black people.

        "It takes balls to execute an innocent man." -- anonymous GOP focus group member on Rick Perry

        by Punditus Maximus on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 11:53:23 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  i didn't insult you in that particular comment, (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          kestrel9000, Deep Texan, fcvaguy

          or anywhere else in the thread as far as I can tell.  Considering further that I wasn't replying to you in this instance, once again, this statement, like the comment about personal insults, says more about you than it does about me.  

          I suspect we really disagree more about means than ends.  I have no anger that you take a position critical of Obama -- though i do see it as short-sighted at best and counterproductive at worst.  it's also sometimes frustrating to see people try to resolve complex issues by reducing them to sweeping generalizations, as if that makes the complexity go away.  If Obama's failed, then surely it doesn't require so much heavy lifting to point it out.  

          "This world demands the qualities of youth: not a time of life but a state of mind[.]" -- Robert F. Kennedy

          by Loge on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 12:00:36 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  You'd think that, (1+ / 2-)
            Recommended by:
            Loge
            Hidden by:
            Deep Texan, kalmoth

            but Obama's supporters like mocking people who lose their homes as wanting "ponies," so maybe we have some work to do.

            The two things Teabaggers hate most are: being called racists; and black people.

            "It takes balls to execute an innocent man." -- anonymous GOP focus group member on Rick Perry

            by Punditus Maximus on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 12:17:35 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Now THAT'S (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Deep Texan, avsp, kalmoth

              about a kilometer or two over the top.
              You make it increasingly difficult to respect your statements.

              "That the people have a right to bear arms for the defence of themselves and the State ..."- Vermont Constitution Chapter 1, Article 16

              by kestrel9000 on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 12:21:35 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  Citation needed. (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              avsp, Deep Texan, kalmoth
              •  Are you serious? (0+ / 0-)

                It's not like comments are easy to search through here at dKos, but are you seriously contending that there haven't been regular mentions of ponies whenever Obama's failed housing programs have been discussed?

                The two things Teabaggers hate most are: being called racists; and black people.

                "It takes balls to execute an innocent man." -- anonymous GOP focus group member on Rick Perry

                by Punditus Maximus on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 12:52:03 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Nice goalpost shift (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  kalmoth

                  Still no evidence, I see. But your claim was about

                  mocking people who lose their homes as wanting "ponies,"

                  So go find some.

                  There is no belief, however foolish, that will not gather its faithful adherents who will defend it to the death. -- Isaac Asimov

                  by tytalus on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 12:58:31 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                •  um. (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  kalmoth, tytalus

                  "Ponies" get mentioned in various contexts.  However, "Obama's supporters like mocking people who lose their homes as wanting 'ponies,'..." is what you said.  

                  Citation still needed.  

                  •  Ah, you meant to their faces. (0+ / 0-)

                    Nah, I didn't mean anything so brave.  I meant that when people losing their homes gets mentioned, Obama supporters consistently mention "ponies" as their counterargument.  

                    The two things Teabaggers hate most are: being called racists; and black people.

                    "It takes balls to execute an innocent man." -- anonymous GOP focus group member on Rick Perry

                    by Punditus Maximus on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 01:38:42 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  In other words, (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      tytalus

                      one shouldn't take what you say at face value?  

                      Meanwhile, I'm sure that there will always be the one a-hole who brings up "ponies", in any context.  Just like the people who are always ready to throw out the cheap jeer about "clapping louder", in the face of any defense of the president.  

                      You, in an effort to paint Obama supporters in general as  unfeeling jerks, got a little too cute with your words, and were called out on it.  

                      •  It's true that there is always that one. (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        bruh1

                        And on the internet, it's not always easy to tell who is representative of opinions.

                        But I have always been horrified by how facile and swift the dismissal of any concern with the economy is among Obama supporters here.  No matter how nasty the story is, it's always about how people want "ponies."  As though remunerative work and stable homes are just too much for Americans to ask for.

                        And then, when things get a little too sociopathic, you see folks claiming that anyone criticizing Obama from the left "really" wants President Romney or Perry.  There was plenty of that here in these threads, of course.

                        The two things Teabaggers hate most are: being called racists; and black people.

                        "It takes balls to execute an innocent man." -- anonymous GOP focus group member on Rick Perry

                        by Punditus Maximus on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 02:10:39 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

            •  i uprated so this comment is there for all to see (0+ / 0-)

              ironically, my belief that the proposed settlement would do at least something for home borrowers in the short term is the reason why i think it might be justified in principle, even at the price of leaving some money on the table to get it out faster.  so whatever mockery is happening has nothing to do with me (what were we saying about replying for the purposes of making shit up, again?)

              "This world demands the qualities of youth: not a time of life but a state of mind[.]" -- Robert F. Kennedy

              by Loge on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 12:36:49 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

  •  So I'm curious (5+ / 0-)

    Is "This Democrat is doing a bad job" verboten in all diaries?  Can I, for example, still criticize the 60 Dems who sent that pro-austerity letter?

    The two things Teabaggers hate most are: being called racists; and black people.

    "It takes balls to execute an innocent man." -- anonymous GOP focus group member on Rick Perry

    by Punditus Maximus on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 10:20:55 AM PST

  •  BY the way, in some ways your diary (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    vipersdad, Situational Lefty

    is a bit over the top in your wordiin throughout the comment section.

    I thinkt he key issue is not what is in Obama's heart of hearts, but whether his policies or those of the Democrats in general will yield any real changes other than the course we already on or does it keep us on that course, which by now lead to economic plights that americans are facing, and does it, do soemthing about the increasing corruption?

    This frame would have allows you to have fewer people, only fewer- not debating why you wrote teh diary

  •  good luck on trying to convince (8+ / 0-)

    the 85% of liberals who approve of obama.  

    a "total failure" eh.  

  •  Does it really matter? We are so (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Situational Lefty

    screwed.  Ask any Native American on any reservation how great life is.  America is a lie.   People who are patriotic are good stewards of the land, take pride in it's people ..all of their people.  This is not what I call American pride when you see idiots who get a thrill in the most bazarre places in the name of God.
    I don't know how we got here but I am uncomfortable in the so called land of the Free.

    We the People have to make a difference and the Change.....Just do it ! Be part of helping us build a veteran community online. United Veterans of America

    by Vetwife on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 10:48:41 AM PST

  •  We Expect (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Johnny Q, Punditus Maximus

    Republicans to advocate for the 1%, even when doing so works counter to the interests of the 99%.  They are pretty much remorseless and unapologetic in so doing.  That is who they are.

    We should however expect better from the blue team.  I find all this partisan tribalism based on affiliation rather than policy to be dangerous to both the party and the country.  We can and must do far better than Democrats like Obama and Holder.  There is no future for a Democratic Party run by people as totally corrupted by the influence of the 1% as they are. We can and must do better, the future of the country and to a degree the world is at stake.

    Advisors for President-Elect Barack Obama feared the new administration would face a coup if it prosecuted Bush-era war crimes, according to a new report out this morning.

    by Kurt Sperry on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 11:00:33 AM PST

  •  When did supposed leftists become so chickenshit? (8+ / 0-)

    The call to let republicans win isn't a good idea: it's just the easiest one, one that the republicans will do for you and you won't have the heartbreak of actually attempting something worthwhile.

    It's nothing more than a failure of nerve, of people setting their highest goals at abject failure.

    I'm ashamed to see this sort of surrender put in writing.  

    Inland: A privately held corporation spun off from the Womb Division of MomCo a half century or so ago.

    by Inland on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 11:17:10 AM PST

  •  The guy's got 99 problems, but a... (9+ / 0-)

    "Failed presidency" ain't one.

    “If you have come to help me, you are wasting your time. But if you have come because your liberation is bound up with mine, then let us work together.”

    by Nanette K on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 11:46:11 AM PST

  •  This is insanity. (9+ / 0-)

    Not sure why people (no offense) are attempting to have a serious conversation with someone who appears to be claiming that Obama is to the right of the GOP.  That's just so plainly counterfactual that I don't feel like it deserves a response.  This diary and the diarist ought to be HR'd from here to next week for trolling.  It's like trying to argue with a plastic lawn chair - we don't accomplish anything and we look like morons for actually thinking that arguing with a plastic lawn chair is a good idea.

    "What Washington needs is adult supervision" - Barack Obama

    by auron renouille on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 11:46:16 AM PST

  •  Good for you! (7+ / 0-)

    You generated light and not heat.  You got people to talk about these issues in a calm and dispassionate manner.  You fostered honest debate without questioning motives and flinging shit.  

    Oh wait, you actually did none of those things.  

    Aces.

    •  I guess. (0+ / 0-)

      Obama is awful on the economy.  Either people want to understand this or they don't.  

      Those who were interested in knowing how awful Obama is on the economy now have permission and a good lead to do some research.  Those who aren't have shown their lack of interest.  

      The two things Teabaggers hate most are: being called racists; and black people.

      "It takes balls to execute an innocent man." -- anonymous GOP focus group member on Rick Perry

      by Punditus Maximus on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 02:26:37 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  More fact-based discussion (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        FG

        and zero condescension from PM!

        God, I feel like I'm on "All Things Considered"!

        •  Wait, you titled your response (0+ / 0-)

          "Good for you!"

          ...and wanted fact-based discussion and zero condescension?

          Have you considered being the change you want to see?  Not defining yourself in terms of people you don't like?  I hear that's a good way to do things.

          The two things Teabaggers hate most are: being called racists; and black people.

          "It takes balls to execute an innocent man." -- anonymous GOP focus group member on Rick Perry

          by Punditus Maximus on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 05:26:29 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Translation: Stop punching back! (0+ / 0-)
            •  Oh sweetie. (0+ / 0-)

              I'm sorry you view someone saying something you don't like on the internet as "being punched," and it must be horrible being asked to bear the burden of upholding ideals that you think others should also adhere to.

              If those things stay hard for you, you're gonna have a long and very unpleasant life.  Consider growing some skin?

              The two things Teabaggers hate most are: being called racists; and black people.

              "It takes balls to execute an innocent man." -- anonymous GOP focus group member on Rick Perry

              by Punditus Maximus on Tue Nov 08, 2011 at 09:42:50 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

  •  if you have pre-existing condition (0+ / 0-)

    as your 2010 registration stated - you might consider this - - you are off the medical insurance blacklist for the rest of your life ( if SCOTUS doesn't strike down AHC) which means you can expect potential for that issue to be more favorable for you than before;

    unless you've failed to appreciate the irony - Obama lost huge political capital ( paid the price  to make that  happen along with and a bunch of other improvements to the corrupt BROKEN health care delivery system)

    Obama stepped up to the bat and advanced against entrenched corrupt business interests ( the fight for universal health care in US has been going on for 100 years)

    Obama  has not failed - pfttt to your opinion

    There's no fundamental difference between and among any of the Republican candidates. ~ V. P. Joe Biden

    by anyname on Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 02:29:07 PM PST

  •  Failure is an "all-things-considered" evaluation (0+ / 0-)

    This diary is about the failure to aggressively prosecute fraud in the banking system, with no dots filled in about how that contributes to an overall failed/successful evaluation.

    At a site with so many who support the president overall, I don't see the utility in writing a diary without more dots filled in.

    •  disagree (0+ / 0-)

      Failure is defined as having not met a desired objective.

      What desired objective has been achieved other than having a Democrat in the White house?

      Are we as a country on a better path than we were 3 1/2 years ago?  

      Please tell me why you think we are and use examples.

      •  I didn't say whether or not Obama is a failure (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        bruh1

        Just that it's unexplained how PM got from minuscule banking prosecutions to total failure.

        I think it's a reasonable discussion topic, and was just trying to improve discussion.

        To answer your question, I don't have much positive to say about Obama's economic record since the first stimulus passed.

        The main thing I can come up with is: he's doing a little better than Europe's conservative governments.

        •  Look at some of the comments above (0+ / 0-)

          do they sound like they want to shift this to a reasonable discussion?

          They are trying to derail that conversation by going for hyperbole or absurd interpretations of what is being said.

          •  I guess the title is what attracted my eye... (0+ / 0-)

            so perhaps hyperbole (if that's what it was) had a net effect of inciting some honest debate.  As I said in our other exchange, looks like it also incited a bunch of stuff that belongs more on X-Box live than it does here in my opinion....but maybe I'm getting too old for this stuff.

            I worry when I read this stuff that this is the best we can do.  I see the same tactics employed by the Right Wing Sound Machine, and wonder how we are different except we are less organized and more poorly funded and don't have media outlets in our pockets....

            I just think we should be better than this - maybe the title started us down the slippery slope but many other people greased the path to the bottom.

            Can't defend the diarist but wanted a chance to express my own disappointment with Obama's record thus far.

            •  This kind of stuff (0+ / 0-)

              is the best Obama can inspire.  Leadership matters.

              The two things Teabaggers hate most are: being called racists; and black people.

              "It takes balls to execute an innocent man." -- anonymous GOP focus group member on Rick Perry

              by Punditus Maximus on Sun Nov 13, 2011 at 08:23:48 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

  •  Someone you know made a spelling error. (0+ / 0-)

    It means you failed in your life.

    You apply the same logic to this diary. Way to go.

    •  Hey, could you mention ponies? (0+ / 0-)

      The folks upthread don't believe me when I say Obama supporters are dismissive of people losing their livelihoods and homes.  This comment is obviously in the same vein, but it'd be nice if the verbiage matched.

      The two things Teabaggers hate most are: being called racists; and black people.

      "It takes balls to execute an innocent man." -- anonymous GOP focus group member on Rick Perry

      by Punditus Maximus on Sun Nov 13, 2011 at 08:24:43 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site