Skip to main content

To the black bloc "Anarchists", I would like you to listen closely to the gentleman in this video at the 3:17 mark . . . he has something important to say . .

You can see people in this video trying to prevent the destruction of property, and my hat goes off to them.

And I use quotation marks on the word Anarchist for a reason, because real Anarchists believe in breaking up corrupt power structures, not smashing windows. Any mindless clown with a brick can smash a window, that doesn't make you an anarchist, just a vandal. Though I am NOT an anarchist myself, the anarchists I have met do NOT endorse this idiotic smashing of property, and nor does Occupy Wall Street. I denounce this type of bullshit. It has NO PLACE in our peaceful movement.

More below the fold

To the cowards in masks who just want to break shit, you aren't helping at all, in fact, you are making things worse for EVERYONE. I have no idea what you have to offer anyone, you basically have nothing positive to add to the conversation we'd like to have. In short, F U, because your idiotic acts of violence and senseless damage of property is certainly going to be used to smear every peaceful person in the Occupy Wall Street movement, so not only are you not adding anything positive, the only thing you are adding is negative.  

UPDATED:

hat tip to Kossack Mindtrain, from the comments . . .

An excerpt from An Open Letter to the Black Bloc and Others Concerning Wednesday's Tactics in Oakland

"The setting on fire of the barricades was totally unnecessary, and may make it necessary for the city to call for the camp to be cleared; the breaking of windows and vandalizing of businesses which supported the strike was utterly stupid and counterproductive; and watching black bloc-ers run from the cops and not protect the camp their actions had endangered, an action which ultimately left behind many mentally ill people, sick people, street kids, and homeless folks to defend themselves against the police onslaught was disturbing and disgusting in ways I can't even articulate because I am still so angry at the empty bravado and cowardice that I saw."

In fact, by engaging in violence and the destruction of property you are giving the police and corrupt Mayors exactly the excuse they need to shut down Occupy protests.

So, speaking on behalf of all of the peaceful people who would stand with us that you are putting at risk, we'd appreciate it if you'd knock this bullshit off, or if you are incapable of that, just get the fuck out.

Please help support my friends, TheOther99. OllieGarkey and HankNYNY have been making sure that the chant "The Whole World is Watching" is true. They've been Ustreaming from New York this entire time, and they're keeping an eye on smaller occupations like Houston, Fresno, and Mobile. They need your contributions to stay operational.

You can follow me on twitter at @JesseLaGreca

Originally posted to MinistryOfTruth on Sat Nov 12, 2011 at 04:57 PM PST.

Also republished by ClassWarfare Newsletter: WallStreet VS Working Class Global Occupy movement.

EMAIL TO A FRIEND X
Your Email has been sent.
You must add at least one tag to this diary before publishing it.

Add keywords that describe this diary. Separate multiple keywords with commas.
Tagging tips - Search For Tags - Browse For Tags

?

More Tagging tips:

A tag is a way to search for this diary. If someone is searching for "Barack Obama," is this a diary they'd be trying to find?

Use a person's full name, without any title. Senator Obama may become President Obama, and Michelle Obama might run for office.

If your diary covers an election or elected official, use election tags, which are generally the state abbreviation followed by the office. CA-01 is the first district House seat. CA-Sen covers both senate races. NY-GOV covers the New York governor's race.

Tags do not compound: that is, "education reform" is a completely different tag from "education". A tag like "reform" alone is probably not meaningful.

Consider if one or more of these tags fits your diary: Civil Rights, Community, Congress, Culture, Economy, Education, Elections, Energy, Environment, Health Care, International, Labor, Law, Media, Meta, National Security, Science, Transportation, or White House. If your diary is specific to a state, consider adding the state (California, Texas, etc). Keep in mind, though, that there are many wonderful and important diaries that don't fit in any of these tags. Don't worry if yours doesn't.

You can add a private note to this diary when hotlisting it:
Are you sure you want to remove this diary from your hotlist?
Are you sure you want to remove your recommendation? You can only recommend a diary once, so you will not be able to re-recommend it afterwards.
Rescue this diary, and add a note:
Are you sure you want to remove this diary from Rescue?
Choose where to republish this diary. The diary will be added to the queue for that group. Publish it from the queue to make it appear.

You must be a member of a group to use this feature.

Add a quick update to your diary without changing the diary itself:
Are you sure you want to remove this diary?
(The diary will be removed from the site and returned to your drafts for further editing.)
(The diary will be removed.)
Are you sure you want to save these changes to the published diary?

Comment Preferences

  •  Tip Jar (500+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Horace Boothroyd III, Major Tom, Naniboujou, wu ming, erush1345, Catte Nappe, ehrenfeucht games, eataTREE, fixxit, Danjuma, noise of rain, kevinpdx, RockyMtnLib, Otteray Scribe, Shuksan Tahoma, alkalinesky, FlamingoGrrl, jennyp, We Won, cyncynical, think blue, pioneer111, rockhound, jmknapp, hippie bitch, EricS, Missys Brother, Lonely Texan, Onomastic, zett, peptabysmal, Dirtandiron, Free Jazz at High Noon, IndieGuy, ozsea1, DamselleFly, member of the msm, kurious, prgsvmama26, luckylizard, Clive all hat no horse Rodeo, fou, SwedishJewfish, citisven, Gowrie Gal, Catskill Julie, irishwitch, Paul Ferguson, ATFILLINOIS, Polacolor, LeislerNYC, Black Max, Helena Handbag, Klaus, gooderservice, Supavash, bluesteel, buckstop, Texknight, wayoutinthestix, haremoor, glorificus, CuriousBoston, Shockwave, swampyankee, maggiejean, blueoasis, deben, muddy boots, Kimball Cross, Dem Beans, RumsfeldResign, begone, gulfgal98, LABobsterofAnaheim, Lefty Coaster, bythesea, mjfgates, Yamaneko2, kathny, geebeebee, Mentatmark, Question Authority, glitterscale, Tom Stokland, Leftcandid, Hammerhand, jhb90277, KenBee, Radiowalla, kck, palantir, goblue72, revsue, billlaurelMD, dalfireplug, CJB, NYWheeler, millwood, NMRed, zenox, LandlockedinAZ, Seamus D, jamess, Wes Lee, CT Hank, yawnimawke, edwardssl, Little, Dopeman, shenderson, oceanview, martini, Pinko Elephant, eve, banjolele, Hayate Yagami, Ozzie, jinx303, CalbraithRodgers, Doctor Who, JDWolverton, tapestry, doesnotworkorplaywellwithothers, auapplemac, golem, Thinking Fella, pickandshovel, Geenius at Wrok, annan, katrinka, out of left field, bozepravde15, bluicebank, TFinSF, dejavu, copymark, shaharazade, Ginny in CO, Brooke In Seattle, Marjmar, jayden, mookins, caul, CoyoteMarti, foucaultspendulum, doingbusinessas, cotterperson, bnasley, 3goldens, x, vheidi, Susipsych, On Puget Sound, Bluesee, GainesT1958, trueblueliberal, zerelda, riverlover, DavidMS, markdd, poliwrangler, solesse413, SherwoodB, Railfan, lineatus, Floande, Kamakhya, zorp, commonmass, scott5js, StellaRay, freeport beach PA, One Pissed Off Liberal, Mother Mags, msmacgyver, toidieht, Heart of the Rockies, Eric Nelson, edsbrooklyn, Akonitum, Prospect Park, mikeconwell, Jane Lew, Mighty Ike, Kurt Sperry, shopkeeper, hyperstation, cacamp, produceus, Debs2, tofumagoo, mofembot, offgrid, annieli, justalittlebitcrazy, Flying Goat, Debby, ItsaMathJoke, rhp, mconvente, progdog, elengul, DebtorsPrison, EdSF, JimWilson, debedb, 88kathy, GreyHawk, SoCaliana, MikePhoenix, Dreaming of Better Days, Quilldriver, mythatsme, Azubia, Nowhere Man, Dianna, NovatoBon, Simple, suejazz, Creosote, TexasTwister, Meteor Blades, dotsright, steelman, psnyder, Dave in Northridge, aliasalias, operculum, Cordyc, renbear, Involuntary Exile, MarketFarces, verdeo, Therapy, dsb, denise b, dharmasyd, boadicea, science nerd, ferment, virginwoolf, Arilca Mockingbird, democracy inaction, magicsister, Its any one guess, Glen The Plumber, Bionic, eeff, psyched, Jim P, sgrAstar, Empower Ink, Geekesque, smokem2271, Mother Shipper, Jeff Y, Caipirinha, tacet, TheLawnRanger, number nine dream, Garfnobl, neecie100, artisan, G2geek, JekyllnHyde, jimreyn, outragedinSF, not a cent, chimpy, pgm 01, justiceputnam, CDH in Brooklyn, awshucks101, sea note, lastlegslaststand, fumie, Gator Keyfitz, Kitsap River, fiddlingnero, kaliope, DampSquid, kurt, shortgirl, petulans, the fan man, AreDeutz, CTPatriot, DWG, splashy, koNko, AnnetteK, DiegoUK, Morgan Sandlin, irate, weelzup, LSmith, coppercelt, scooter in brooklyn, a2nite, skohayes, TexMex, Debbie in ME, emperor nobody, reginahny, Book of Hearts, tbirchard, Lisa Lockwood, Bexley Lane, hangingchad, Robobagpiper, rubyclaire, Karl Rover, Pinto Pony, JanL, Dave in RI, ItsSimpleSimon, Little Flower, jeannew, googie, AnnieR, J M F, John Kelly, SneakySnu, marleycat, Agathena, followyourbliss, unclejohn, xynz, sb, fallina7, KalHermit, missLotus, sherlyle, ms badger, Matt Z, Gustogirl, Executive Odor, Quasimodal, BlueDragon, Dale, Terminus, GoGoGoEverton, Tismo70, mamamedusa, sideboth, Snud, Sylv, Pohjola, thejoshuablog, JesseCW, technomage, h bridges, sawgrass727, miracle11, Betty Pinson, wild hair, LWelsch, rogerdaddy, bronte17, litoralis, ruleoflaw, M Sullivan, CenFlaDem, stonekeeper, SadieB, Hill Jill, Joieau, Tool, BMarshall, Maggie Pax, DarienComp, strangedemocracy, DerAmi, RedPencil, no way lack of brain, fcvaguy, nickrud, El Mito, Damnit Janet, aerie star, Lily O Lady, Russgirl, Celtic Merlin, pixxer, parse this, SingerInTheChoir, doroma, gloriana, Moonwood, lollydee, fayea, FloridaSNMOM, bleeding heart, cpresley, susans, Andhakari, volleyboy1, War on Error, sidnora, SeaTurtle, pileta, MarkC, highacidity, karmsy, MeMeMeMeMe, linkage, cachola, CT yanqui, KahluaKrazy, joe wobblie, Cinnamon, elwior, sockpuppet, LaFeminista, Eddie L, ZilV, Timmethy, 714day, twigg, tegrat, eglantine, Johnny Q, BusyinCA, rsmpdx, davboyce, MKSinSA, Irons33, KnotIookin, WesEverest, Alice Venturi, nicolemm, Safina, Knucklehead, itsbenj, Moderation, davehouck, the greasybear, nancat357, JayBat, zooecium, Anna M, Brecht, TomP, Laconic Lib, BalanceSeeker, lunachickie, be the change you seek, Mathazar, Pam from Calif, dakinishir, TigerMom, Libby Shaw, maf1029, lissablack, high uintas, CoolOnion, GoldnI, Habitat Vic, thomask, terabytes, Teknocore, flumptytail, Sarea, bsmechanic, Loose Fur, AbominableAllStars, Situational Lefty, brightwhitelight, Simplify, bakeneko, peachcreek, Angie in WA State, CIndyCasella, glendaw271, Actbriniel, PinHole, No one gets out alive, oxon, Yogurt721, VaBreeze, ErikO, mungley, qannabbos, Terrapin, Xapulin, kharma, IL clb, jazzizbest, vacilando, FindingMyVoice, oyka1, George Pirpiris, NearlyNormal, Captain C, ceebee7, bushondrugs, Militarytracy, MJ via Chicago, aitchdee

    #OccupyWallStreet ~ an island of Athenian democracy in a sea of Oligarchy

    by MinistryOfTruth on Sat Nov 12, 2011 at 04:57:42 PM PST

    •  Exactly (14+ / 0-)

      They are strictly vandals, nothing more.  They have no purpose other than destruction.  That is why they wear masks.

      Anyone who tries to conflate black bloc with the Occupy movement has no idea what the Occupy movement is about.

      The United States is not just losing its capacity to do great things. It's losing its soul.--Bob Herbert. gulfgal98's corollary- We are fighting back to save our soul. Thank you, #OWS for empowering us all.

      by gulfgal98 on Sat Nov 12, 2011 at 06:15:23 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  cowards and petty egotists too. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        gulfgal98

        Their goal is always to steal the spotlight, and they are experts at doing so.  Ultimately their battle cry is "ME! ME! ME!  Pay attention to ME! ME! ME!."  

        Someone needs to call them out on that stuff.  Spoiled petty egotists and cowards at the same time.  

        "Minus one vote for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

        by G2geek on Sun Nov 13, 2011 at 12:59:38 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  If you're proud of your actions, show your face (18+ / 0-)

      Non-violent OWS/99% demonstrators are proud of their actions, willing to be identified with the movement because it is righteous. Some are willing to be arrested in the cause. That's the source of the power.

      They are the brave people who remained non-violent even when injured, in the face of obvious police aggression at UC Berkeley, in Times Square, in Oakland. Their courage inspired the country, discredited the police violence and draws allies. I'm in awe of them.

      Masked cowards darting out from behind the skirts of peaceful, non-violent demonstrators to commit useless vandalism, set fires or intentionally provoke police ENDANGER the rest of us. Worse, they cause the "one step back" for our "two steps forward" in this movement. They alarm and drive away the 99% allies WE NEED. They drive a wedge between legal demonstrators and the police who should also be our allies. Their actions allow the media to unfairly cover OWS demonstrations as violent or potentially so.

      Although I may (again) be rudely castigated here, I personally now consider anyone at a demonstration with their face covered (prior to any tear gas assault) to have ill intent. I personally disavow the violent actions of "black bloc" or anyone else. I personally consider it cowardly and counter-productive, and very bad public relations.

      Okay, the Government says you MUST abort your child. NOW do you get it?

      by Catskill Julie on Sat Nov 12, 2011 at 06:28:06 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Exposing one's self to police violence is stupid (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        oldhippie
      •  I keep asking anarchists at kos (9+ / 0-)

        why they just don't organize vandalism protests. Stand alone actions of vandalism with like minded vandals only. They could fight of flee the cops as they choose. And the OWS movement, and peaceful protestors are never put at risk by their actions.

        I never get an answer.

        •  These sh*tstirrers need human shields (9+ / 0-)

          Regardless of ideology or lack thereof.

          "Keep your feet on the ground and keep reaching for the stars" --Casey Kasem

          by netop on Sat Nov 12, 2011 at 10:32:47 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  oooh, excellent tactic! (3+ / 0-)

          Dude (guy or gal, dude is a nongender pronoun:-), you have just planted a major viral meme.

          "Why don't you organize specific protests to go smashing stuff?"

          I'm going to make full use of it.

          I'll also guess that you & I both know the answer to this: it's because the violent asses are not only egotists but also cowards: they want to be able to hide in the crowd.  

          "Minus one vote for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

          by G2geek on Sun Nov 13, 2011 at 01:06:57 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  You keep claiming that any of the Anarchists (0+ / 0-)

          currently support the use of vandalism as a tactic, when they tell you over and over and over that they do not.

          It's getting kind of weird, honestly, but the reason you never get an answer is that your question is based on a premise you know to be false.

          She's the sort of person who would not only happily stay in Omelas, but would ask "Couldn't life be more wonderful if we threw a few more kids in there?"

          by JesseCW on Sun Nov 13, 2011 at 07:59:17 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  All anarchists and black blocs renounce violence? (0+ / 0-)

            Since when? There are more kinds of anarchists than breakfast cereal. Some are peaceful and some aren't. Some organizations like Ruckus have both peaceful and violent training manuals for street protest.

            And vandalism invites police aggression. It is not non-violent. Who were the vandals in Oakland? And who keeps arguing at the OO GA about wether vandalism is violence?

            •  good grief (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              JesseCW, SadieB

              1) No one can possibly speak for "all anarchists"
              2) No one is talking about "renouncing violence"
              3) Anarchists do not consider property destruction to be violence.
              4) There is not some epidemic of police trampling people while chasing Black Bloc participants
              5) Even if there was it would be the fault of the police if people were injured by their actions
              6) I, and basically all anarchists I've seen here, think the employment of Black Bloc on Nov 2 was strategically and operationally stupid.  That is not a renunciation of violence or of property destruction, which is something you would be extremely hard-pressed to find any anarchist willing to do.

              •  6) Not even at peaceful protests? (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Catskill Julie

                Not protests that are planned as peaceful and attract thousands because of the emphasis on non violence?

                This is what upsets so many of us who are not anarchists. Why does this minority think they have the right to either be violent or not at any demonstration, march, or action they choose? And this regardless of what the majority of peaceful protestors and organizers are trying to achieve.

                Seems a lot like the behavior of the 1% the world is beginning to organize against.

                3) Most people do think vandalism is violence. The police certainly do and they will aggressively intervene to prevent the community they police from being damaged. And unless ordered not to they will pursue vandals, or other criminals, into crowds of peaceful people at a protest or simply on a street.

                4-5) I have seen videos of peaceful protestors caught between violent vandals in Seattle getting trampled and worse. And I have heard people witnesses to this  at post protest meetings. I have also read press and official reports confirming these events. Some of the testimony confirming the above was given by police.

                If anyone commits a crime in a crowd of peaceful protestors, that they know will cause a police intervention, this person has recklessly endangered innocent people. If the police pursuit turns into a scuffle, this can become a riot. Everyone  near this violence is subject to being sprayed, gassed or injured in a melee.

                The person who commits vandalism or even non lethal assault on the police is giving the police an excuse to close a protest and bop heads while they are doing it. Who doesn't know that if you taunt a mean guard dog you might get your ass bit.

                This is why many people believe these "anarchists" are actually undercover cops.

                1) Nobody could speak for all anarchists. There are more kinds of anarchists and theory than breakfast cereals.

                2) Nobody is asking you to renounce violence. You are being asked to renounce violence and vandalism at peaceful protests.

                You could organize vandalism dedicated protests. Organize like minded vandals and have at it. Boston Tea Party comes to mind. A dedicated action directed at the largest most vile corporation of the age. The protestors disguised themselves, vandalized a shipload of corporate property, harmed no one and only put themselves at risk of state retaliation. Beautiful.

                Peaceful protests should not be infiltrated by vandals or undercover cops. But the outcomes for peaceful protestors and organizers is the same, a ruined protest and discredited cause.

            •  At this site, where you keep "challenging" (0+ / 0-)

              people to go hold rallies in support of tactics they do not support, none of the self-identified Anarchists are advocating violence or vandalism.

              None.

              It's becoming more and more clear that it Anarchists, not vandalism, that you've got a problem with.

              That someone disagrees with you about the meaning of the word violence doesn't mean that someone supports vandalism, particularly when said someone repeatedly states that they do not.

              She's the sort of person who would not only happily stay in Omelas, but would ask "Couldn't life be more wonderful if we threw a few more kids in there?"

              by JesseCW on Sun Nov 13, 2011 at 08:57:03 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  No (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                itsbenj

                I have a problem with people who commit acts of violence, which to me includes vandalism, at peaceful protests, that have been organized as peaceful and people are attending because they expect the protest to be peaceful.

                And the only people arguing that violence by protestors is not responsible for aggressive intervention by police seem to be anarchists. And many of us think this is complete bullshit and places quaint anarchist theory over real world cause and effect.

                And many of us are outraged that violent minorities think they have a right to decide if a protest will be peaceful or a street brawl no matter what a majority is trying to accomplish. And wonders there is anarchist theory to defend this behavior as well. Anarchists don't recognize majorities. But things aren't so because anarchists say they are so.

                Form your own anarchist protests with other like minded anarchists. Break so many windows that thugs who took part in kristallnacht will be put shame. Taunt the cops until they cry. But don't endanger others.

                If anarchists, or people posing as anarchist, don't support vandalism at peaceful protests what in fuck is all the argument about.

                Perhaps if we confined our dispute to wether acts of vandalism in peaceful crowded protests is reckless we could get somewhere, and leave the anarchist theory out of the discussion, because it allows you to say anything is what you say it is, because you say it is. Great theory.

                I feel like I'm arguing with a bucket of mud.

                 

                •  The only people I've seen arguing that (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  barleystraw

                  someone breaking a window justifies police brutality have been rather unhinged Authoritarians.

                  Again, you launch into a diatribe that has no connection to reality, addressing me as if I had  advocated or support breaking windows, setting fires, and the like.

                  I haven't.  Neither have the vast majority of Anarchists.  Neither do any of the fucking people whose arguments you've mischaracterized non-stop for the last week.

                  You've refused to merely discuss whether or not such action is reckless - rather, you've insisted on using it as an excuse to do what you just did.

                  Rant about anarchists, and personally attack those who call you on it.

                  She's the sort of person who would not only happily stay in Omelas, but would ask "Couldn't life be more wonderful if we threw a few more kids in there?"

                  by JesseCW on Sun Nov 13, 2011 at 02:43:40 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Calling vandalism reckless at protests is what I (0+ / 0-)

                    did, and anarchists defending it as a valid tactic for social change, is where this exchange took off. And is stuck.

                    I haven't read any post that suggests police brutality applied at the scene of the crime by lawless cops is a good idea. Have I written one? I, and others, have pointed out that vandalism is a crime and will attract police open for business. And that innocent citizens trying to peacefully protest can get injured if caught between the players in a game of cops and vandals.

                    That people who want to protest peacefully resent having demonstrations ruined by pointless violence is something you have just learned about? That these reckless vandals often turn out to be identified as anarchists or black blocheads is not going to endear the Sacco and Vincenti club to those who think these clowns shit can everybody else's organizing and showing up efforts, while the press can reduce coverage to "Dirty Hippies Battle Police".

                    Whats wrong with asking people who think vandalism is a valid form of protest to organize their own vandalism events and stay away from protests organized and recruited as peaceful?

                    And I don't have to like anarchism, its pantheon of past and present intellectual lights, or the dangerous clowns inspired by the theory to destroy peaceful Progressive protests attended by the rest of us.  

                    Condemning vandals and acts of reckless violence at peaceful protests, is not excusing the police violence that can follow window breaking. We are also rightly blaming the window breaker as well for any injury to others.

                    Oh, and the fact that many people commenting here think that black bloc type behavior seems to be just like the behavior of undercover cops trying disrupt a protest, should give some pause to the "Jr. Revolution League of Awesome Window Breakers".    

                    The poor anarchists, Oh the humanity!

                       

                    •  And this (0+ / 0-)
                      And I don't have to like anarchism, its pantheon of past and present intellectual lights

                      Is all you actually came here to say.

                      Why waste time trying to obfuscate it, and pretend it's about anything else?

                      We get it.  You despise Anarchists - people ranging from Joe Hill to Naomi Kline.

                      She's the sort of person who would not only happily stay in Omelas, but would ask "Couldn't life be more wonderful if we threw a few more kids in there?"

                      by JesseCW on Thu Nov 17, 2011 at 08:33:41 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  I really don't think about anarchism much. (0+ / 0-)

                        Occasionally I ponder wether anarchy or libertarianism is the dumber or more unworkable theory. But it is window breakers who ruin peaceful protests who call themselves anarchists or the undercover cops who get to infiltrate small groups of assholes thanks to the masks and the dipshit useless tactics.

                        At anarchist news .org I just read an article on blac blochead tactics and it wasn't very flattering.

                        And good and decent people can be wrong about all kinds of things, including anarchism. But useless violence for the sake of useless violence is not something I bet Joe Hill or Naomi Kline would support.

                        This a partisan Democratic site. The advocacy of anarchism is not going to fly here. Anymore then urging anarchists at an anarchist site to register Democrats to vote would fly there.

                        Keep your anarchism and your window breakers.    

      •  reluctantly agree. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        BlueDragon, fayea, SwedishJewfish

        I ferociously support a large amount of what Anonymous does.

        I firmly believe in the right to privacy even in public spaces: the difference between "being seen, being watched, and being stalked."

        I believe in the right to wear masks at demonstrations, because some people will lose their jobs or face other retaliation for even appearing at a demonstration, and they deserve the privacy that protects their right to free speech.  

        However what the Black Bloc assholes have done is essentially create emergencies on demand, and use anonymity as coverage for their asshole behaviors.  

        So at that point they lose their right to anonymity.  And the problem is, that also means an end to anonymity in general in the places where they are stirring up shit.

        So, off with the masks altogether, and anyone who looks like they're masked-up to cover for doing vandalism or violence needs to be unmasked and driven OUT of there.  

        "Minus one vote for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

        by G2geek on Sun Nov 13, 2011 at 01:04:43 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  I think that they are performing the (75+ / 0-)

    romantic opera of radicalism, and as such, only their role as actors on the stage matters. The issues, ethics, responsibilities and repercussions simply don't matter to them. As such, they are amoral, and as amoral forces are behind a firewall that is as profound as jackbooted fascists.... it is just a differently constructed firewall.

    But peer pressure is powerful, and if you/we can root them out at an individual level, maybe there is hope.

    Either way, righteous rant...

  •  The black block as guerrilla vs. occupation (41+ / 0-)

    I commented on this earlier.

    From a purely theoretical standpoint,

    The Occupation movement is essentially an occupation force.   Core to the strategic objectives of occupying forecs is winning the hearts and minds of the general populace (in this case 'the 99%').

    Black Blocs behave essentially as guerrillas, they come in from nowhere, inflict damage, and return to nowhere.

    In this case, it could be argued that the Black block is an anti-occupy guerrilla force.   The more damage the Black block achieves, the less likely the general populace is to support Occupy.

     

    I used to write here as VeganMilitia. I let that user name pass into the history books.

    by Shuksan Tahoma on Sat Nov 12, 2011 at 05:12:26 PM PST

    •  That's True From a Purely Functional Standpoint. (14+ / 0-)

      You're simply describing accurately what's happening and what the actual effect is.

      We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

      by Gooserock on Sat Nov 12, 2011 at 05:29:05 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Essentially, BB tactics are antithesis to Occupy (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        G2geek, SadieB

        But I don't think that makes them inherently wrong.  

        I don't need questions of morality or definitions of what constitutes violence vs non-violence to influence this decision.

        I don't need to get into the details about anarchist theory.

        I don't need to make judgement statements about the moral character, race, or economic background of those who engage in bb tactics to influence this decision.

        But I can say unequivocally

        Black bloc is not part of Occupy

        Take away their vote and kick them out of the assembly.  The Arab league did it just yesterday with Syria.   So there's precedence.

        And to allies in the black bloc:  Don't worry, there are still plenty of Banks of America, McDonalds, and Starbucks in the rest of town.   Feel free to have your own party, but please remember, nobody likes a party crasher.

        I used to write here as VeganMilitia. I let that user name pass into the history books.

        by Shuksan Tahoma on Sat Nov 12, 2011 at 06:11:59 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Some of these comments are eerily (3+ / 0-)

          beginning to sound like something from Animal Farm.

          Your idea of political participation in Occupy is to just kick out the people you don't like.

          How does this make you better than what you are protesting?

          •  Orwell didn't just make up a fable n/t (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            JesseCW

            "In a nation ruled by swine, all pigs are upwardly mobile." Hunter S. Thompson

            by Keith930 on Sat Nov 12, 2011 at 06:26:37 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  I, too find it disturbing. The Occupy movement is (7+ / 0-)

            supposed to be based in the collective thinking model and building to consensus. You can't do that when you just kick people out who disagree with you. Consensus is supposed to encourage dissent, evoke all the seemingly opposing ideas. You let them all emerge and then you see what you can create from all that which works for everyone.

            The 99% is going to start shrinking rapidly if we kick out everyone who dissents. We actually violate our own principles by doing so.

            Please remember to Witness Revolution. It means so much to them that we pay attention.

            by UnaSpenser on Sat Nov 12, 2011 at 06:32:14 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  That's why I suspect Oakland's GA won't (7+ / 0-)

              vote it out: too authoritarian to do so (and not really a real problem for them besides).

              I don't think the Black Bloc tactics have been used much recently at all. I've asked ad nauseum for any proof that they have.

              Not one person has provided me with a shred of information that this issue is even real.

              The conversation reminds me of the Weapons of Mass Destruction stuff. Scary! Get em! Paranoia! Oh no!

              And actually, I don't like the authoritarian bent of it either. Unless it becomes an actual problem which actually needs to be dealt with, and not just an intellectual parlor game.

              •  I find it problematic that people are trying to (8+ / 0-)

                pressure the GAs adopt their edicts or else we'll "lose the support of the public." It's a kind of extortion. Do it our way or we'll abandon you.

                This movement does not respond well to that.

                Also, it belies a complete lack of faith in the people of the movement. That is exactly how we get authoritarian systems. Either you appreciate the movement or you don't. If you want it to be something different than it is, then you don't really support it. You just it want it to serve your views.

                Please remember to Witness Revolution. It means so much to them that we pay attention.

                by UnaSpenser on Sat Nov 12, 2011 at 06:43:13 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Well, yes... (4+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  UnaSpenser, KenBee, barleystraw, SadieB

                  Exactly. I am not sure when people decided that GA's which they weren't a part of were under their jurisdiction. I don't believe that those who founded the OWS movement intended for that type of sentiment at all, obviously. Which is part of why it's a leaderless movement.

                  It's a form of co-option, to be very frank. I think that's why you call it "extortion." I don't really much like it either. I say work with your local GA and that's that. You cannot control a direct democracy, nor should you want to (if you like direct democracies, which OWS is).

                  Also, feeding into destructive, anti-OWS memes is not my cuppa.

                  •  also, people can form their own GAs. Which is (5+ / 0-)

                    what needs to happen. Every city and town should actually have myriad GAs. They can be neighborhood based or affinity based. But a functioning GA really shouldn't be more than a couple hundred people. Eventually, there will be councils where reps from different GAs get together, etc. There is a model for this. But, if you have strong feelings about what the movement should or shouldn't be, either join an existing GA or form your own. But stop trying to tell existing GAs what they should or shouldn't do. And this whole "or you'll lose our support" thing has got to go.

                    Please remember to Witness Revolution. It means so much to them that we pay attention.

                    by UnaSpenser on Sat Nov 12, 2011 at 06:54:27 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  That's the best model (5+ / 0-)

                      for a direct democracy, which should be small to function. I would agree. It needs to have unified interests. That doesn't mean they will all have interests that cross over with one another. And sometimes, they will have to work together in coalitions. That kind of political system does, I feel, work best. For one thing, you know everyone. For another, you care about everyone and the group as a whole.

                    •  "or you'll lose our support" is a fact of life. (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Matt Z

                      The movement loses tons of support every time bad shit happens in the streets.

                      Them's the facts, ma'am, and if you don't like them, you're welcome to form your own reality in some other dimensions than physical fourspace.  

                      As for extortion, smashing shit is extortion agains the entire movement by a bunch of egotistical little pricks who are only in it for themselves.  

                      If they want vandalism, they can form a vandalism GA, and have a vandalism protest, and do all the vandalism they can get away with before the cops haul their asses off to the county jail where the local hoods from the hood will tell them a thing or two about their attitude toward the locals.  

                      "Minus one vote for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

                      by G2geek on Sun Nov 13, 2011 at 01:29:37 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                •  I would not call it extortion. (12+ / 0-)

                  Nobody is going to support a group that supports things to which they strongly object. Most people strongly object to property destruction.

                  •  Not most Anarchists, not in theory (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    RanDomino, barleystraw, evilrick

                    This is like, two years of bedside conversation with me rolling my eyes now. Most Anarchists definitely do support, in principle, destruction of property in some circumstances. So do some Communists. But all philosophical conversations aside, who is "nobody"?

                    Progressives & Green Party folks? Definitely. It probably seems like an abomination. Other Anarchists? Hm. I think they would support it. Socialist pacifists like me? I'm chill in general about what other people do, since they aren't me, and they don't speak for me, or represent me. Just don't toss a trash can through a window next to me. I will be out of there quite fast. And then you have like eight million subgroups ranging from SHARPS to Pyrate Punx to the freaking Vegan Militia to Leninists to Trotsykites, etc... who has the time to police everyone else's ideology?

                    Does that make sense?

                    If this becomes "a problem" then that's different. So far, one video does not a problem make. Especially on an open invite.

                    •  I was talking about the attitudes (4+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      tapestry, G2geek, kurt, oldhippie

                      of the general public who don't know Trotskykites form boxite and don't care. I am part of the very small group that enjoys digging around in obscure political ideologies, but I am clearly that it is not pop entertainment.

                      What has become a problem is public reaction to this. You can blame it on the media, but the cat is out of the bag.

                      I've been around protest for half a century and I was not the least bit surprised that it happened. Most people haven't and they were.

                      If this were some East Bay protest that nobody was paying attention to it really wouldn't matter. It was associated with a national movement in which people are placing a great deal of hope. The public image of that matters.

                    •  "the freaking Vegan Militia?" (3+ / 0-)

                      never heard of such a thing.

                      I used to write here as VeganMilitia. I let that user name pass into the history books.

                      by Shuksan Tahoma on Sat Nov 12, 2011 at 07:16:03 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  when the Egyptians destroyed the building of the (10+ / 0-)

                      ruling party, the world didn't declare that they had lost everyone's support because they had engaged in violence. Nor when they threw rocks at police officers shooting at them.

                      So, why, when one very microscopic group in one small corner of the movement, breaks some windows is everybody so willing to abandon the movement?

                      I think people do actually know that sometimes targeted destruction of institutional property is the most generative thing you can do. That property usually has been constructed on the back of many exploited people and stands as a power base for further oppression.

                      Now, I'm not advocating window breaking. I am saying that this puritanical reaction to a single action which is denying the value of a dialogue because it triggers some anxiety is completely antithetical to what this movement is about.

                      No more fear. Time to start having faith in one another.

                      Let the conversation play out. Let's see where we all end up.

                      Please remember to Witness Revolution. It means so much to them that we pay attention.

                      by UnaSpenser on Sat Nov 12, 2011 at 07:16:39 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Oh and I seem to recall cheers when the statue (3+ / 0-)

                        of Hussein was pulled down.

                        Was that violent? The American people could get behind that destruction of property. Funny, how we have selective morality.

                        People have some cognitive dissidence. We need to take the time to make the reconnections of synapses.

                        Please remember to Witness Revolution. It means so much to them that we pay attention.

                        by UnaSpenser on Sat Nov 12, 2011 at 07:19:16 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  That really isn't going to stop the negative (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        pigpaste, Johnny Q

                        reaction.

                        •  the concern is duly noted. the lack of faith, too. (4+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          barleystraw, jarbyus, JesseCW, SadieB

                          It's the lack of faith that will doom this movement. Not a few people who don't meet our romantic ideals.

                          Because you know, the status quo is so much better to return to than allowing that the movement to take us somewhere different might not be perfect. Or may require us to actually talk about things we find difficult. Or may ask us to have patience.

                          Please remember to Witness Revolution. It means so much to them that we pay attention.

                          by UnaSpenser on Sat Nov 12, 2011 at 07:34:22 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  I don't see it as a religious/spiritual (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            barleystraw

                            movement and I am by nature a person of faith. I suspect that you and I have fundamentally perspectives there.

                          •  I do see it as a spiritual refactoring similar to (0+ / 0-)

                            the renaissance

                            and I think it will take 50 to 100 years to really work itself out.

                            Arab Spring, OWS are stepping stones along the path.

                            Unfortunately there are immense obstacles such as peak oil, water shortages, global warming in addition to entrenched militarized greed and corruption

                          •  not helpful (4+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            pigpaste, kurt, sviscusi, Caipirinha

                            I just had a conversation with a new friend.  Not my political persuasion, but surprisingly open to my point of view.  I had not heard of any trouble other than the police overreactions, and he starts coming at me with "anarchists are part of the occupy movement, there were girls being raped.  If they can't stop that and allow it to happen, they are evil and the movement is evil."  I literally have no idea what he is talking about, and assure him he was mislead.  He was rather insistent these things were happening.  I now understand why.

                            This is insanity.  Destroying neighborhoods is foolish, idiotic, and criminal.  You cannot win over the 99% if they hate you.  People hate vandals fucking shit up.  Do you feel me?  Don't feed me bullshit about breaking the windows of a chain store accomplishing anything.  Kristallnacht much?  The 99% feed their families working at places like that.

                            Stop it.  Make others stop it.  Don't let it happen again.  Otherwise neither I nor anyone else can win over converts.  Hearts and minds man.  You can't save a village by destroying it.

                            Oh, and by the way, pulling down a statue of a man who murdered thousands(we stage managed the entire episode by the way) not really the point.  But shock and awe?  Notice how that didn't exactly engage our collective better angels?

                            And another thing.  I read something about Egypt here.  Quite violent episodes apparently.  Well, sure.  They were the death throes of an actual military dictator.  Not surprising people were actually killed and wounded.

                            This is America.  We may be economically oppressed.  Our government may have authoritarian tendencies which have been more pronounced in the last 30 years.  Gone well beyond acceptable levels in fact.  But give me an effin' break.  The comparison is purile.  There is absolutely no cause for vandalism.  The 1% could give two shits.  They live behind walled communities.  Until we are in full scale revolution wiping out whole communities of McMansions, they won't even notice.(not an endorsement, quite the opposite.)  But I guarantee the part of the 99% that barely knows you exist, and whose approval and support you dearly need and should want, will most definitely notice.

                            Unfortunately, they'll likely be lost when they see the made up FOX news version that includes raping young girls.

                            p.s.  Not one clue if there is actually such a FOX news version.

                            "...you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view." Obi-Wan Kenobi

                            by thepook on Sat Nov 12, 2011 at 10:50:34 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I hear you and sense your anxiety (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            JesseCW, SadieB

                            and I don't want to dismiss it or deride it.

                            Remember there are some out there who thought or make still think Obama is the Antichrist.

                            We can't manage how everyone immediately interprets the events that they observe.

                            We can't be hamstrung and held back by uninformed misinterpretations of reality.

                            The corporations control the media and they will spin everything to their advantage.

                            You can fool some of the people all the time
                            You can fool all of the people some of the time
                            But you can't fool all of the people all of the time

                          •  You don't seem to be able to fool (0+ / 0-)

                            anyone at any time.

                          •  why resort to a personal insult? (0+ / 0-)

                            I'm not trying to fool anyone.

                            I'm trying to reason with people rather than stifle discussion by insulting people.

                            We all have something to learn from each other here if we're willing to have a rational discussion with open minds.

                          •  let's hear it for the True Faith! bleh. n/t (0+ / 0-)

                            "Minus one vote for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

                            by G2geek on Sun Nov 13, 2011 at 01:33:29 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                      •  The whitewashing of Egypt (3+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        UnaSpenser, barleystraw, JesseCW

                        is one of the most terrible things that nonviolence fetishists have done during this revolutionary period.  The Egyptian people fought heroically.  Nearly a thousand were killed!  But they won in the street, and that's why they were an inspiration to the entire world.  To say that the Egyptian protests were nonviolent is to do incredible disrespect to the victories and sacrifices of the Egyptian people.

                        •  Is breaking a window in Oakland (4+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          pigpaste, kurt, Johnny Q, itsbenj

                          going to inspire the world and take down the plutocracy?  

                          •  David and Goliath is inspiring to some people (0+ / 0-)

                            The story is not that the people rejected David after he used it to bring Goliath down.

                          •  David faced Goliath and owned his act (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            kurt, Johnny Q

                            And his challenge protected his fellows from danger. Window breakers that flee into a crowds of peaceful protestors endanger innocents. Who do reckless cowards inspire?

                          •  There was no fleeing into crowds (0+ / 0-)

                            while being chased by police, causing no injury when the (nonexistent) police didn't trample anyone.  Your story is completely invented and I find it telling that you're the only person saying this theory.

                          •  Really Ran? (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            kurt, Karl Rover, SwedishJewfish

                            Peaceful protestors in Seattle reported this type of action many times. Others reported vandals and cop brawlers changing clothes as many as 3 times to keep cops form getting an ID on them.

                            In our hometown those of us who went to Seattle had meetings to share our experiences. All of us wether in the march or the blockades were non-violent. Most who were at the downtown protests were young college students. A few had stories of violent protestors provoking police with direct confrontation or vandalism. Black bloc, anarchist, rioter, or undercover cop. Those confronting cops or committing vandalism used others peaceful protestors as shields to prevent themselves form arrest and no doubt a beating. People were injured in the confusion and panic. And many arrested or sprayed just for being in the way.

                            The violence and vandalism of anarchists was promised weeks before the protest. The idiots from Eugene Oregon were very noisy  about the violence they were going to commit. They were part of the DAN network I think. The observations of people in the streets at this protest are very damning of both police violence and overly aggressive behavior. As well as the mayhem touched off by self describe anarchists who were often equally dangerous to peaceful protestors by trailing cops into groups of peaceful people to avoid arrest or worse. There are videos of anarchists, black blocs, undercover cops, or maybe boy scouts, spraying cops with urine and other obnoxious liquids from behind often unsuspecting protestors. The cops can be seen wading thru the innocents to get at their tormentors.  

                            All this is well documented by other protest groups, individuals and official reports and journalists. And I could find this theory of provoking police violence in peaceful crowds in anarchist literature and training manuals dating back before the First World War. There are years of evidence of violent tactics promoted by anarchists. Including Ruckus form the Bay Area.

                            I'm the only one pushing this theory? There is about a 100 years of evidence of anarchist theory both peaceful and violent to pour thru if you can stand it.

                            I'm surprised you don't know about it. Try the goggles.

                            And committing acts of vandalism in peaceful crowds invites police aggression and the possible injury of innocents.

                             

                          •  Other reckless cowards nt (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Grabber by the Heel
                        •  now we're nonviolence fetishists! really! n/t (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          SadieB

                          "Minus one vote for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

                          by G2geek on Sun Nov 13, 2011 at 01:34:17 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                      •  Oh puh-leeze. This isn't f---ing Egypt.... (4+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Matt Z, Caipirinha, sviscusi, itsbenj

                        .... and you know it.

                        That kind of self important posturing-by-analogy is just so pathetic it makes me want to blow my nose.  

                        "Minus one vote for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

                        by G2geek on Sun Nov 13, 2011 at 01:32:22 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  When you destroy the building of the (7+ / 0-)

                        ruling party, get back to me.  

                        Hint: It isn't Men's Wearhouse.

                      •  Tahrir Square was a pitched battle. (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        RanDomino, Johnny Q

                        Hundreds died there.

                        Thousands died in the course of the Revolution (and it ain't over).

                        The pacifists - and they were legion - didn't pack up and go home because someone threw a rock.

                        She's the sort of person who would not only happily stay in Omelas, but would ask "Couldn't life be more wonderful if we threw a few more kids in there?"

                        by JesseCW on Sun Nov 13, 2011 at 08:10:59 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                    •  mahakali, save the intellectual for occassions (3+ / 0-)

                      when the rights of the majority are in conflict with the minority.  It's a problem for me when any law enforcement officer, any citizens, or anyone expressing their right to free speech is put in danger by a minority of assholes.

                      Can I be more clear?

                    •  It's simpler than that. (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      RanDomino

                      Any anarchist deserving the name will tell you property is theft. Property is violence against the working class. Property has no rights.
                      And then they will tell you destroying property right now, physically and violently, is the tactic of fools with their head up their ass. Encouraging destruction of property is what cops do. Encouraging interminable discussion of something that is really quite simple is also what cops and their surrogates do.

                  •  It's extortion to question my support for the (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    G2geek, kurt, sviscusi

                    movement by demanding I support violence, property destruction, or any acts beyond peaceful, civil disobedience.

                    I'm no Gandhi.  If I were, I'd be near starvation to remind those who have forgotten their purpose in life.

                •  Vandalism is a cop magnet whats to discuss? (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  kurt, oldhippie, Johnny Q
              •  Perhaps some distinction should be made (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                joe wobblie, mahakali overdrive

                "These are not Black Bloc, these are violent assholes and/or agent provocateurs."  And give simple ways to distinguish one from the other.

                You may think that. I couldn't possibly comment.-- Francis Urqhart

                by Johnny Q on Sun Nov 13, 2011 at 02:40:36 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

            •  tactics vs individuals (12+ / 0-)

              everybody is welcome.  Certain behaviors should be unacceptable.  

              why is this disturbing?

              I used to write here as VeganMilitia. I let that user name pass into the history books.

              by Shuksan Tahoma on Sat Nov 12, 2011 at 06:40:53 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  Consensus, that word right there. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              SwedishJewfish

              Unfortunately it means the 9% wanting free ponies can't have them.

                What is the problem here with a consensus vote, if it passes, with taking a position that violence and property destruction are not welcome at an Occupy camp?

               Somebody says to 'kick them out', whatever that can possibly mean in a public street and park, , assuming they/BB™

              1. lost the vote denying property destruction as an acceptable tactic

              and

              2. ignored it by continuing to do so

              and

              3. continue to participate in Occupy marches and demonstrations.

              Will they be physically picked up and thrown out?

              Arrested? beaten?

              no, they cannot be excluded, altho it's right to try.

              If there is consensus that they not accept at Occupy property destruction or personal violence I think they should be at least be photographed and outed, if the Occupy consensus is no property destruction or personal violence.

              It's such a stupid problem it's almost as stupid as hiring off duty cops to wear plainclothes and arrest them, hell they're there anyway, might as well have our own strings on them as the police chief's.

              Gah!

              ..squinting all the while in the glare of a culture that radiates ultraviolet consumerism and infrared celebrity...Russell Brand

              by KenBee on Sat Nov 12, 2011 at 06:57:16 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  How's the 99% going to shrink? (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Catskill Julie, G2geek, JesseCW

              You need to be careful of misunderstanding the meaning of "We are the 99%"...the Occupy Movement does not represent 99% of America except to the extent that they are giving voice to popular anger at the current state of affairs vis-a-vis the super-rich getting richer and everyone else getting poorer and the government facilitating the transaction....

              But the occupation sites themselves are not actually representatives of the American people. You may speak for people, but only in a limited sense of sharing frustration and maybe occasionally channelling it (like the move your money thing). But you are not the actual "99%"...

              "All governments lie, but disaster lies in wait for countries whose officials smoke the same hashish they give out." --I.F. Stone

              by Alice in Florida on Sat Nov 12, 2011 at 09:21:58 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  this isn't about kicking out people who DISAGREE. (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Matt Z, Caipirinha, SwedishJewfish

              It's about kicking out people who FUCK SHIT UP.

              And if we don't do it, then we are no better than Wall Street when it failed to kick out its own equivalents for FUCKING SHIT UP.  

              Cut the circle-jerk bullshit and get real.  

              "Minus one vote for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

              by G2geek on Sun Nov 13, 2011 at 01:26:07 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  Oh for heaven's sake (0+ / 0-)

              Only sick people embrace their own destruction. Occupy should disavow their actions and drive them away from their activities.

              The "anarchists" don't want to be a part of Occupy anyway. They clearly want to destroy it. I have no idea what purpose they think that will serve, which is why I suspect they are right wingers masquerading as anarchists.

            •  Is it OK to kick out provocateurs? (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Johnny Q

              Is it OK to kick out those aiding the police to beat in your head?

            •  Several of these people are desperate (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              RanDomino

              to create a mechanism for excluding individuals and classes of individuals from the movement for reasons that have nothing to do with a handful of vandals.

              You'll note a huge overlap here with those who have been saying from the start that the movement should somehow be the Democratic Tea Party.

              They can't achieve that goal without purges, and this is the best wedge in the door to lay the groundwork for a system that will allow them to be conducted.

              She's the sort of person who would not only happily stay in Omelas, but would ask "Couldn't life be more wonderful if we threw a few more kids in there?"

              by JesseCW on Sun Nov 13, 2011 at 08:05:27 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  If that's your interpretation I should clarify (11+ / 0-)

            I've strongly advocated black bloc tactics in the past, under different circumstances.  

            I strongly disavow black bloc tactics in conjunction with Occupy.

            And this especially not true

            Your idea of political participation in Occupy is to just kick out the people you don't like.

            All people are welcome,   however certain tactics are unacceptable.

            I used to write here as VeganMilitia. I let that user name pass into the history books.

            by Shuksan Tahoma on Sat Nov 12, 2011 at 06:38:02 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  Oh bullshit. Utter and complete bullshit. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Matt Z

            "People you don't like."  Puh-fucking-leeeze.

            Those "people" are welcome to participate if they behave themselves like civilized humans rather than rabid skunks out to stink up the whole movement.

            And YES, we CAN kick out people who do evil shit, whether it's vandalism that leads to violence, or whether it's burning a cross in the middle of the plaza.  

            The way it makes us better than what we're protesting is that unlike the Wall Street crony capitalists, we are willing to rid ourselves of the outlaws and wreckers in our midst.

            But if what you want is a circle-jerk, then find some good porn online, call up a few of your friends, and get together and make a sticky mess of your own carpet.  

            And if you LIKE vandalism and violence, then go right ahead and organize a protest consisting wholly of vandals.  Go right out and smash stuff.  Have the courage of your convictions and do it without a huge crowd to hide behind like a bunch of fucking cowards.  I dare you.

            "Minus one vote for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

            by G2geek on Sun Nov 13, 2011 at 01:24:59 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  Only pure blooded Aryans (0+ / 0-)

          there's precedence for this also.

          •  Now yer talkin'. (0+ / 0-)

            TO MAKE CRUMBOBBLIOUS CUTLETS

            Procure some strips of beef, and having cut them into the smallest possible slices, proceed to cut them still smaller, eight or perhaps nine times.

            When the whole is thus minced, brush it up hastily with a new clothes-brush, and stir round rapidly and capriciously with a salt- spoon or a soup-ladle.

            Place the whole in a saucepan, and remove it to a sunny place, - say the roof of the house if free from sparrows or other birds, - and leave it there for about a week.

            At the end of that time add a little lavender, some oil of almonds, and a few herring-bones; and then cover the whole with 4 gallons of clarified crumbobblious sauce, when it will be ready for use.

            Cut it into the shape of ordinary cutlets, and serve up in a clean tablecloth or dinner-napkin.

    •  The guerrilla is the fish, the people are the sea (10+ / 0-)

      according to Mao Tse-tung, who should know, if anyone would.

      If you are a guerrilla you don't try to boil the sea.

      If you make the people mad, your guerrilla activity ends.

      •  Oh fuck, don't tell me I'm reading the manifesto (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Alice in Florida

        of a Chinese Communist, gone Capitalist.

      •  was Mao's success based on non violence? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        BeeDeeS

        How about George Washington?

        Did they light those fires and cross the Delaware to do a non-violent protest at the camp of the Hessian Mercenaries?

        or, heavens forbid, was there actual acts of violence involved?

        •  nonviolence is based on the idea that either (0+ / 0-)

          your oppressors will stop of their own accord, or someone else will come kick their ass for you.  So either it's based on magical thinking, or not actually nonviolent.

          •  No, that's passivism as opposed to (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            SadieB, SwedishJewfish, Johnny Q

            paficism.

            Non-violence is really based on the idea that the parasitic class can't wipe its own ass or tie its own shows.

            If we withhold our labor, our consent, our resources, then we can extract just about any concession we want from them.

            All it takes is astounding discipline and an incredible willingness to suffer.

            She's the sort of person who would not only happily stay in Omelas, but would ask "Couldn't life be more wonderful if we threw a few more kids in there?"

            by JesseCW on Sun Nov 13, 2011 at 08:17:48 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I wish there was more of that thinking (0+ / 0-)

              But I haven't seen any real discussion of NVDA in this movement.

              •  So far the most direct action I've seen (4+ / 0-)

                has come out of OO, e.g. the blockade of the Alameda port, and the attempt to repatriate the Traveler's Aid Society building.  

                In too many other places simply pitching tents in a public park appears to be the extent of the direct action people are prepared to take.  I'm hopeful the movement is strong enough, and the crisis dire enough, that this will change.  But it seems to me energy would be better spent shaping future direct action rather than pearl clutching over a few broken windows and quarts of paint.

          •  No, it isn't. It's based on the idea that all (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Johnny Q

            power is social power, flowing from the people to the leaders, instead of the other way around. This means the people have  the ability to stop or redirect that flow.

            Truly the destruction of the earth only results from the destitution of its inhabitants, and its inhabitants become destitute only when rulers concern themselves with amassing wealth. Caliph Ali, 7th century

            by SadieB on Sun Nov 13, 2011 at 09:32:06 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I would appreciate if you explained your HR (0+ / 0-)

              of my comment in the diary, so that the community has a chance to evaluate your reasoning. It's really an etiquette thing and I do it when I HR unless it's been explained by another already. Thanks.

              Justified anger does not grant you unrestricted license.

              by GoGoGoEverton on Sun Nov 13, 2011 at 11:51:23 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  I think what you're confusing nonviolence with (0+ / 0-)

            is "weakness." It's a common mistake.

            Truly the destruction of the earth only results from the destitution of its inhabitants, and its inhabitants become destitute only when rulers concern themselves with amassing wealth. Caliph Ali, 7th century

            by SadieB on Sun Nov 13, 2011 at 09:33:27 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  Good point. (0+ / 0-)

          It may well be necessary to unleash the collective rhinoceros against window smashers for the good of the movement. Are you with me, punk?

    •  Black bloc are simply thugs (8+ / 0-)

      They bear no relationship to the Occupy movement.  They are simply using the Occupy movement as a reason to commit vandalism.  

      Occupy movement is non-violent and intellectually based.  They are smart, committed, and very oriented towards technology.  IMHO,if need be, the real guerrillas in the Occupy movement may well be Anonymous.

      The United States is not just losing its capacity to do great things. It's losing its soul.--Bob Herbert. gulfgal98's corollary- We are fighting back to save our soul. Thank you, #OWS for empowering us all.

      by gulfgal98 on Sat Nov 12, 2011 at 06:21:33 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  You're an expert, eh? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        barleystraw
      •  I'm curious about your comment (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        RanDomino, barleystraw

        You seem to draw a distinction between the tactics of the Black Bloc and those of Anonymous, and put Anonymous in a camp with the Occupy movement which you see as "non-violent," "intellectually based" and anti-vandalism.

        I think you may be looking at things in far too black/white a fashion.  And if seen in black/white terms, I think you may be putting Anon on the wrong side of the equation.  For instance, how do you square your comment with Anonymous' well-documented history of cyber-activism (including DDOS attacks, etc.)?  Is only physical property subject to "vandalism" and/or "violence?"

        Moreover, how do you square an anti-vandalism stance with support for occupying a public space for an extended period of time, thereby increasing the wear and tear on that space (not to mention barring the space from other possible use).  Could the very act of occupation not be seen as "vandalism" and/or "violent" by some?

        What about occupation of non-public space, either (a) as a symbolic gesture (e.g. a foreclosed property), (b) as an ameliorative gesture (to reclaim abandoned property and turn it to good use), or both?  Is that "vandalism" and/or "violent" in your eyes?

        •  breaking a window vs (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          gulfgal98, Grabber by the Heel

          wearing it out by looking thru it..

          you are parseing the issue when it's really a question of tactics at this stage when so many people are supporting a pretty strict interpretation on non violence and property destruction...
          There may be a time when we throw rocks and bottles and set fires..it's not yet, and hopefully may never be.

           

          ..squinting all the while in the glare of a culture that radiates ultraviolet consumerism and infrared celebrity...Russell Brand

          by KenBee on Sun Nov 13, 2011 at 12:31:34 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  That's fine, and I agree from a tactical view (0+ / 0-)

            the time has not yet come (and hopefully will not come) for throwing rocks and starting fires.  I do not necessarily agree that OWS does itself any favors by expressly limiting itself to being a peaceful protest movement without any possibility of more direct action should it become necessary.

            Moreover, if you are suggesting Anonymous does nothing more than "looking thru" windows, the facts do not back up this assertion.  A DDOS attack shutting down a major corporation's website for, say, a full business day, does much more damage in pure monetary terms than any amount of graffiti and broken windows on a single storefront of the same corporation.

        •  My comment about Anonymous (0+ / 0-)

          was simply speculative based upon the fact that I have seem Anonymous videos regularly on the Live Streams for #OWS.

          As far as the rest of your comment, you and I will have to disagree.  You have your opinion which seems to support the status quo and that is your right.  I do not.  

          The United States is not just losing its capacity to do great things. It's losing its soul.--Bob Herbert. gulfgal98's corollary- We are fighting back to save our soul. Thank you, #OWS for empowering us all.

          by gulfgal98 on Sun Nov 13, 2011 at 05:29:20 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  This is fantasy... (0+ / 0-)

      ...the Occupation movement is essentially a protest featuring camping.  The Black bloc are a bunch of vandals.  Nothing else to see here.

      A quant and damned proud of it.

      by Cera on Mon Nov 14, 2011 at 07:10:28 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Very Sad Indeed... (31+ / 0-)

    Here we are: Non-violent people of infinite good will are trying to build a movement for real change in America, and meanwhile these provocateurs go about trying to bring the movement down to destroy it, intentionally or otherwise. Furthermore, this cannot be given short shrift, because this is truly about the survival of the movement. Make no mistake about that, folks.

  •  You should also quote this excellent letter from (59+ / 0-)

    a medic. It is an eyewitness account of what happened the night of the General Strike. It shows what cowards the Black Bloc actually are.

    "The setting on fire of the barricades was totally unnecessary, and may make it necessary for the city to call for the camp to be cleared; the breaking of windows and vandalizing of businesses which supported the strike was utterly stupid and counterproductive; and watching black bloc-ers run from the cops and not protect the camp their actions had endangered, an action which ultimately left behind many mentally ill people, sick people, street kids, and homeless folks to defend themselves against the police onslaught was disturbing and disgusting in ways I can't even articulate because I am still so angry at the empty bravado and cowardice that I saw."

    http://www.indybay.org/...

    The Black Bloc are doing the work of the police (whether they are infiltrated or not). Moreover, the Black Bloc seem to epitomize the possessive individual of liberal democracy.

    Pay close attention to those who defend the Black Bloc tactic and you will notice that their statements say the same things: selfish individuals over the collective intelligence of the Occupation, grandiose statements that project the BB as a "vanguard," and other forms of machismo and self-importance, at the expense of everyone else. These values are the ones we are fighting against. Including the Black Bloc means including these values in our Occupation.

  •  There are all different kinds of anarchists (20+ / 0-)

    Rightwing, leftwing, anarchopacifists, situationists, more than I care to name. Few I have met have any understanding of what real stateless societies involve in terms of social structure, what real future stateless societies might involve, or what todays's Real Existing Anarchism (Somalia) is like.

    As for these? I seriously suspect they are agent provocateurs. There is a long history of this sort of thing. What other purpose could this serve? How will it really advance the cause of reform or even of revolution? There are, I'm sure, stupid people who know no better who are participating. I hope both types are arrested. Being arrested and making bad laws the issue is, after all, what civil disobedience is all about, and I believe in doing civil disobedience. But this isn't civil.

  •  Isn't non-violent anarchism (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    irishwitch, FG, barleystraw

    ...more the anomaly than the norm? At least historically, anarchists embrace violence against the state, under the rubric of propaganda of the deed or attentat.

    Naturally it would be better that they didn't do these things, as anarchist actions have always subtracted from progressive efforts, but to assert that real anarchists are non-violent seems counter to experience. And truly, if one rejects working within existing political systems as they do, what is left except violence and disruptive actions?

    •  There are all kinds of anarchism. (6+ / 0-)

      Most anarchists disavow the Black Bloc.

    •  No (9+ / 0-)

      Read this Wiki article.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/...

      Historically the violent strains have been the minority.

      •  Force (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        glorificus

        I suppose it's like the conceit of libertarians who have as an official maxim a "zero-agression" policy:

        "A libertarian is a person who believes that no one has the right, under any circumstances, to initiate force against another human being, or to advocate or delegate its initiation. Those who act consistently with this principle are libertarians, whether they realize it or not. Those who fail to act consistently with it are not libertarians, regardless of what they may claim."

        Oh, but try to, say, levy a tax on them, or say they can't own a machine gun, and look out, it's you who have initiated force, and take the gloves off!

        It isn't a pacifist philosophy as those who wish to continue feeling good about being aggressors try to claim; it recognizes the human right to defend yourself against aggression however you see fit. If you don't believe me, try attacking a ZAP adherent.

        Historically, the great anarchists of history mentioned in the article, like Johann Most, Emma Goldman, etc. have advocated propaganda of the deed and rationalized it by saying the state did far worse injustice and violence to the people. I.e., "they started it."

    •  The actual activity of most Anarchists (4+ / 0-)

      never makes the news.  There are thousands of Anarchist collective houses, infoshops, small businesses, organizations, and projects all over the world that do some really amazing work.  David Graeber said it best the other day-

      ...they never say "anarchist facilitators helped run a General Assembly in Portland yesterday" or "anarchists practiced non-violent civil disobedience at Chase today" - but the moment someone damages a piece of glass, suddenly their long-term political vision becomes relevant again.
    •  You want to know what Anarchism is? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      RanDomino

      http://www.youtube.com/...

      Anarcho-Syndicalism.  Right there.

      If you balk at slingshots, if you think pushing back against the riot shields or wrestling a thug in uniform off of a fallen comrade before he's killed is violence you cannot accept, you may find that this movment doesn't meet your standards.

      But lethal force?  Force as an act of aggression?

      Fuck no.

      She's the sort of person who would not only happily stay in Omelas, but would ask "Couldn't life be more wonderful if we threw a few more kids in there?"

      by JesseCW on Sun Nov 13, 2011 at 08:34:07 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  We need video of OWS cleaning up after them. (10+ / 0-)

    I hear they're doing it, but we need to see it - picking up glass, scrubbing the graffiti - if the owners give permission.  Otherwise, there should be video of paying the damages and then some nice gesture on top of that, and apologizing for others' behavior, no matter who the victim.  If the Black Bloc realize that their actions are making money go to the 1% and they still continue, we'll know whose side they're on.

  •  You don't seriously think that they (17+ / 0-)

    give a rat's a$$ whether they wreck the Occupy movement, do you?  You can't appeal to the "better nature" of someone who just wants to trash stuff for the hell of it.  

    These are just older, taller (I almost mischaracterized them as "grown up") versions of the kids who would disrupt a game on the playground just to see everyone be disappointed.  

    -7.62, -7.28 "Hold fast to dreams, for if dreams die, life is a broken winged bird that cannot fly." -Langston Hughes

    by luckylizard on Sat Nov 12, 2011 at 05:45:36 PM PST

  •  Learn from the past. (15+ / 0-)

    Those of us from the Days of Viet Nam and feminsit protests learned quickly that there are always people who, to quote "The Dark Night": "there are men who just want to watch the world burn."  They destroy for the fun of it. We had volunteer marshals who acted as in-house security.

    Later, when I got into sf fandom, we had  con security people who sorted out problems before they required hotel security.  Ditto with SCA at Pennsic--10,000 people in a msall area for up to two weeks.  There are always those who come just to steal from others, and who  attempt sexual assault. Theya re promplty thrown offsite and banned.

    If you don't do it yourself,. the police will take over. ANd we don't want that.

    The bigger this gets, the more you're gonna need some structure, preferably elected by the General Assembly. Eventually you end up with choas otherwise.

    The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

    by irishwitch on Sat Nov 12, 2011 at 05:50:28 PM PST

  •  too little, too late (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    irishwitch, peregrinus

    the PR/media damage has been done.

  •  Why do people only have one video of the Black (10+ / 0-)

    Bloc?

    I think because this was the only day they were an issue?

    Not worth giving this air.

    A "non-troversy." And also, an old one at this point. Have there been any problems with the guerrilla Black Bloc since Oakland's general strike? If so, let me know. If not, wake me up when there are actual problems.

    This is media static making people edgy. With Occupations every day, the Nation over, why do people keep referring to this one piece of footage again and again if this is "an issue"?

    Choose which memes you give legs to.

  •  How about a decree by the GA nationwide (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    johnny wurster

    disallowing anyone to cover their face at stand-up demonstrations?

    It's winter though...tough call.

    apparently due to ancient hardware and the transition to dk4 I can't recc tip jars or comments any longer so in lieu of the 'standard nod' you'll see a variety of replies until this gets fixed or becomes a mighty big fucking pain in the ass

    by oopsaDaisy on Sat Nov 12, 2011 at 06:10:59 PM PST

    •  because no one agrees that people should be (7+ / 0-)

      forced to show their faces. Many have very real reasons to remain anonymous.

      We already know of one woman who lost her job because she was seen in a protest photo.

      And there is no nationwide GA. Each GA is independent.

      Please remember to Witness Revolution. It means so much to them that we pay attention.

      by UnaSpenser on Sat Nov 12, 2011 at 06:17:52 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I meant nationally. (0+ / 0-)

        But okay, anyone seen vandalizing with masks, rip them off their fucking faces and take a picture.

        Find our biggest guys to act as anti-fuckup roamers at these demonstrations.  Don't give the fucking cops or powers that be an excuse to screw up what we've got going just cuz 'this is a free and open movement with no rules'.

        What the fuck do you think Anarchy is!  Set some goddamn boundaries so we can keep this going...Jesus christ!

        apparently due to ancient hardware and the transition to dk4 I can't recc tip jars or comments any longer so in lieu of the 'standard nod' you'll see a variety of replies until this gets fixed or becomes a mighty big fucking pain in the ass

        by oopsaDaisy on Sat Nov 12, 2011 at 06:40:07 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  yeah, swear at me. that will make me listen (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          barleystraw, kurt

          better.

          Yes, ma'am. Now that you've given your decree we all know what to do.

          So much for horizontal democracy.

          Please remember to Witness Revolution. It means so much to them that we pay attention.

          by UnaSpenser on Sat Nov 12, 2011 at 07:00:48 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •   I apologize, Una (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            UnaSpenser, foucaultspendulum, kurt

            I get in these tangents and sometimes my short fuse does all the typing.   I click post, then come to my senses and regret it.  As I do now.  Very sorry, I wasn't mad at you.

            It's just that this is a great unprecedented movement being spoiled by IMO a policy enabling anarchy.

            apparently due to ancient hardware and the transition to dk4 I can't recc tip jars or comments any longer so in lieu of the 'standard nod' you'll see a variety of replies until this gets fixed or becomes a mighty big fucking pain in the ass

            by oopsaDaisy on Sat Nov 12, 2011 at 07:13:14 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  forgiven. thank you. I'm simply asking that we (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              barleystraw, BlueDragon, jarbyus, SadieB

              have some faith.

              It's not like there has been an outbreak of property destruction.

              We're all reacting from fear. The turning point in each country of the Arab Spring, the moment when you could feel that the movement wasn't going to just die and go away, was when the people starting saying, "no more fear".

              It's important the we acknowledge when we're in a state of fear or anxiety. Don't dismiss it. Fear and anxiety serve a purpose. But, don't let them control us, either. Wise decisions are not made from fear and anxiety.

              There has been only one incident of property destruction that I know of. So, why would we push everybody in the movement to circumvent a rich consensus process rooted in a deep explorative dialogue over one incident?

              Please remember to Witness Revolution. It means so much to them that we pay attention.

              by UnaSpenser on Sat Nov 12, 2011 at 07:23:56 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  You mentioned the Arab Spring. (0+ / 0-)

                I recall that infiltrators loyal to Mubarik, Ghaddafi, etc, used well coordinated infiltration tactics to discredit their respective uprisings.  Didn't work there in the long run, but they were obvious and crude and by and large the MSM exposed them.  

                But there are an awful lot of angry idiots out there who only believe what they see on corporate mouthpiece FOX and we already know how they spin this.

                apparently due to ancient hardware and the transition to dk4 I can't recc tip jars or comments any longer so in lieu of the 'standard nod' you'll see a variety of replies until this gets fixed or becomes a mighty big fucking pain in the ass

                by oopsaDaisy on Sat Nov 12, 2011 at 09:13:20 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  The Egyptian media did *not* (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  RanDomino, mahakali overdrive

                  expose them.  

                  Instead, it ran endless stories about how all women in the protests were prostitutes just there to turn tricks, how the protestors were supposedly a bunch of drug addicts and petty thugs, how they were murdering cops, how they were living in their own filth, ect. ect.

                  Seem familiar?

                  She's the sort of person who would not only happily stay in Omelas, but would ask "Couldn't life be more wonderful if we threw a few more kids in there?"

                  by JesseCW on Sun Nov 13, 2011 at 08:42:05 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I meant Our media..."by and large" n/t (0+ / 0-)

                    apparently due to ancient hardware and the transition to dk4 I can't recc tip jars or comments any longer so in lieu of the 'standard nod' you'll see a variety of replies until this gets fixed or becomes a mighty big fucking pain in the ass

                    by oopsaDaisy on Sun Nov 13, 2011 at 09:59:00 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Our Media is irrelevent to whether or not (0+ / 0-)

                      people in Egypt saw through the medias lies and continued to support real change.

                      She's the sort of person who would not only happily stay in Omelas, but would ask "Couldn't life be more wonderful if we threw a few more kids in there?"

                      by JesseCW on Sun Nov 13, 2011 at 02:45:17 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

              •  tippiong point: no more fear...excellent (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                SadieB

                this is a key take away from this discussion, at least for me.

        •  right, send people to assault these supposedly (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          barleystraw, pot, JesseCW

          dangerous people, let me know how that works out.

          •  Not assault, expose! (0+ / 0-)

            Do we really think the money-backed opposition to OWS and it's message are beyond a nasty campaign of infiltration and sabotage?  This is what they do, proven again and again.  At almost 70% public approval for the message we're sending, this is the 1 percent's only recourse.

            When did I ever say assault?  Expose their shit before they fuck up current public opinion with their devious, time-tested subterfuge.  Yeah, maybe get mean with the 1% plants if need be.  They're probably counting on the passivist, anarchy-enabling disarray in the diversity of our people.  

            Wake up.  

            apparently due to ancient hardware and the transition to dk4 I can't recc tip jars or comments any longer so in lieu of the 'standard nod' you'll see a variety of replies until this gets fixed or becomes a mighty big fucking pain in the ass

            by oopsaDaisy on Sat Nov 12, 2011 at 08:47:41 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Ripping someone's mask off would be assault (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              JesseCW

              Anarchists, of all people, would certainly defend themselves, both because it is an overtly aggressive act and because it exposes the person to further violence from the police.

              I can't think of a better way to ensure the Occupy movement descends into a general melee than by actually attacking other participants.

              •  Jeez, did you read my comment or just gloss. (0+ / 0-)

                Rip off their masks "IF" they trash property and take their picture!   They're either punk vandals or fucking GOP plant infiltrators trying to pollute the OWS movement.

                If you prefer, ask them politely if they could please remove their headwear as you would be interested in archiving their photo for relay to the proper authorities.

                apparently due to ancient hardware and the transition to dk4 I can't recc tip jars or comments any longer so in lieu of the 'standard nod' you'll see a variety of replies until this gets fixed or becomes a mighty big fucking pain in the ass

                by oopsaDaisy on Sat Nov 12, 2011 at 09:26:19 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  You're advocating a rapidly escallating (0+ / 0-)

                  cycle of violence between members of the movement.

                  It's not wise.

                  She's the sort of person who would not only happily stay in Omelas, but would ask "Couldn't life be more wonderful if we threw a few more kids in there?"

                  by JesseCW on Sun Nov 13, 2011 at 08:43:08 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Punk vandals or opposition backed infiltrators (0+ / 0-)

                    are not members of the movement.  They're there for either "kicks" or to "discredit", or both.

                    We should do whatever we can to prevent either.

                    They should be exposed.  I'm not advocating violence.  I used the word last night to 'RIP' off their masks IF they trash property and take their picture.  Now I'm a violent maniac inciting violent revolution.  Bad word choice, I guess.

                    Note to self:  never use the fucking word "rip" ever fucking again.

                    apparently due to ancient hardware and the transition to dk4 I can't recc tip jars or comments any longer so in lieu of the 'standard nod' you'll see a variety of replies until this gets fixed or becomes a mighty big fucking pain in the ass

                    by oopsaDaisy on Sun Nov 13, 2011 at 10:13:23 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  You just advocated violence again. (0+ / 0-)

                      Assaulting someone and trying to remove clothing or masks from their person is a violent act.

                      You can argue about property issues all you like - grabbing someone and trying to yank off a tightly tied bandana is violent.

                      Even if you think it's somehow justified because you saw them break a window.

                      BTW - do you plan on doing this yourself, or do you just want other people to wind up in brawls?

                      She's the sort of person who would not only happily stay in Omelas, but would ask "Couldn't life be more wonderful if we threw a few more kids in there?"

                      by JesseCW on Sun Nov 13, 2011 at 02:20:38 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

              •  It should only descend into a general melee by (0+ / 0-)

                masked vandals trailing riot cops into peaceful crowds.

              •  Those who set the fires did attack other partici- (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                kurt, Karl Rover, Caipirinha

                pants. We've seen the video and read the first-hand accounts.

                In the video above, masked vandals interfered with other OO participants' cameras and physically intimidated, pushed and shoved to the ground people trying to protect others and property.

                Why don't you condemn that?
                Or is only stopping their violence that's aggressive?

                Okay, the Government says you MUST abort your child. NOW do you get it?

                by Catskill Julie on Sat Nov 12, 2011 at 11:20:04 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  Why would it be assault? (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                kurt, Karl Rover, Catesby

                It's just a mask. It's just property.

                If they truly believe that property damage is not violence, they should have no objection to having their masks taken off their faces and torn to pieces.

                "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." --Dom Helder Camara, archbishop of Recife

                by JamesGG on Sat Nov 12, 2011 at 11:25:11 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

            •  make cash turning them into the Gestapo (0+ / 0-)

              maybe the 1% will even provide a cash reward

              20 pieces of silver

              dead or alive

        •  You advocate vigilante assault and (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          RanDomino

          battery as a response to mere property crime?

          You do this in the name "non-violence"?

          Is there a fucking mirror shortage in this country?

          She's the sort of person who would not only happily stay in Omelas, but would ask "Couldn't life be more wonderful if we threw a few more kids in there?"

          by JesseCW on Sun Nov 13, 2011 at 08:39:28 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Shorter: you tacitly support violence. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        erush1345, VClib, GoGoGoEverton

        Bottom line here is that people think OWS is violent because it is.  Any measures that could mitigate violence - such as prohibitions on masks - are voted down.  Fuck, OO even voted down a purely symbolic statement against violence!

    •  THere is no nationwide GA. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      RanDomino, kurt, JesseCW

      They are all local and autonomous.

      •  If I'd meant a centralized cabal, (0+ / 0-)

        I would've capitalized the 'national'.   Look!

        apparently due to ancient hardware and the transition to dk4 I can't recc tip jars or comments any longer so in lieu of the 'standard nod' you'll see a variety of replies until this gets fixed or becomes a mighty big fucking pain in the ass

        by oopsaDaisy on Sat Nov 12, 2011 at 06:42:37 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  I wouldn't glorify any group by giving them some (4+ / 0-)

    highfalutin title. My title for them: Hooligans.

    "...be still, and cry not aloud; for it is an unholy thing to boast over slain men." Odysseus, in Homer's Odyssey

    by Wildthumb on Sat Nov 12, 2011 at 06:15:41 PM PST

    •  that's a convenient way to avoid hearing what (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      barleystraw, SadieB

      they're trying to get at.

      Disagree with their tactics, but at least listen to what they are thinking. We might have something to consider. Don't make them less than because you disagree with them. They aren't hurting people. So, at least give them a hearing with an open mind.

      Please remember to Witness Revolution. It means so much to them that we pay attention.

      by UnaSpenser on Sat Nov 12, 2011 at 06:19:12 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  They think? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        erush1345, Caipirinha

        "Fire is cool!" is a thought of sorts, but it's not what we would typically consider "thinking" in any meaningful sense.

        •  that's so off base. Now you are accusing people (6+ / 0-)

          who you don't agree with of not thinking. Wow. How humanistic.

          Actually, there is some sophisticated thinking about the way laws have been generated by the wealthy class about "property" and how we've all been manipulated to buy into their concepts of property. This along with thoughts that destroying non-sentient things is not violence.

          Was it violent when we took sledgehammers to the walls we wanted to get rid of in my house? We were generating the space to create a different interior layout. Sometimes destruction is a good thing.

          I'm not saying that I advocate window smashing or anything. I'm saying there is something to consider and dehumanizing people because we don't want to have to break through our own cognitive walls is not helping.

          Please remember to Witness Revolution. It means so much to them that we pay attention.

          by UnaSpenser on Sat Nov 12, 2011 at 06:57:59 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  They advocate violence and property damage. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Caipirinha, KenBee, Matt Z

        That fact alone makes their views completely unworthy of consideration.

        "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." --Dom Helder Camara, archbishop of Recife

        by JamesGG on Sat Nov 12, 2011 at 10:28:42 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  So does anyone who ever supports military force (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          barleystraw, pot, JesseCW, SadieB
          •  Very well, let me rephrase. (0+ / 0-)

            They advocate illegal violence and property damage.

            "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." --Dom Helder Camara, archbishop of Recife

            by JamesGG on Sat Nov 12, 2011 at 11:18:10 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Illegality is not wrong by itself either (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              barleystraw, JesseCW, SadieB

              Civil disobedience is illegal.  So if illegality is not necessarily wrong, and property destruction is not necessarily wrong, why should illegal property destruction necessarily be wrong?

              •  Yes. It is necessarily wrong.... (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                kurt

                ...and is in no way comparable to nonviolent civil disobedience, as set forth in Dr. King's "Letter from a Birmingham Jail."

                First, property damage is quite simply stupid—in that it serves no useful function, and does not further the goals of the movement, but rather sets the movement back.

                Second, the acts of property damage done are in many cases indiscriminate, rather than targeted. Those who read Dr. King's work will realize that nonviolent civil disobedience is always targeted at the unjust law in question. Can those engaging in property damage state with confidence that each and every piece of property they damage is being used in the commission of an injustice?

                Third, unlike the brave people who engage in nonviolent civil disobedience, those who are advocating and engaging in property damage are not then subjecting themselves to the law; rather, they not only run from the police, but they hide their faces like pathetic cowards so that their identities won't be discovered. Dr. King makes it clear that those who engage in nonviolent civil disobedience should submit themselves to the punishment of the law, in order to bring to light the injustice of the law they break while respecting the overall justice and validity of law.

                "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." --Dom Helder Camara, archbishop of Recife

                by JamesGG on Sat Nov 12, 2011 at 11:34:32 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

    •  Hooligans was the Soviet government's (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      SadieB

      favorite word when they persecuted dissidents.

      •  Oh, brother. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        kurt

        Keep it up. Keep destroying property and battling the cops
        and losing public sympathy and slowly or rapidly pissing away
        any grounds you gained initially.

        No sympathy if you lose. Hooligans are those who take their
        free-floating angers and frustrations out on people and property "just because." Or just because they're "entitled" to do it. Hooligans_stands. And no, I'm not an _apparatchik.

        Nonviolent disobedience or nothing.

        I helped out the local Occupiers but if I thought there was a deliberate turn to violence I'm fucking gone.

        "...be still, and cry not aloud; for it is an unholy thing to boast over slain men." Odysseus, in Homer's Odyssey

        by Wildthumb on Sun Nov 13, 2011 at 08:38:10 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  I wonder if any of us are actually open to a real (6+ / 0-)

    exploration of the words violence and property?

    I've long held a very parochial definition of non-violence. As the question of what exactly non-violence means has become a point of tension throughout this movement, I find myself wanting to listen to what people with a different view than mine are saying.

    I don't want to simply shut them down and say, "get out of our movement!" The whole point to collective thinking is to hear everyone, to absorb their perspective into the collective mind and see what kinds of truths we might glean from it.

    It seems to me that there is a knee-jerk reaction going on and we're not able to have a real dialogue.

    Could we have one?

    Because I find myself really curious about this concept that what we consider property, which is imbued with legal protection, may actually be a manipulation by the wealthy class to convince us to protect that which they have accumulated while exploiting others.

    Doesn't mean I'm ready to smash windows, but I'd like to have real dialogue and not a reactionary one.

    Please remember to Witness Revolution. It means so much to them that we pay attention.

    by UnaSpenser on Sat Nov 12, 2011 at 06:15:44 PM PST

    •  Yeah, I know what you mean (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      UnaSpenser, KenBee, SadieB

      My ex was a stolid Anarchist. I was a Socialist and a pacifist. We discussed the topic academically at length. I think this issue is well beyond most Leftists conversational repertoire. Moreover, I'm not sure that there is any problem with property destruction going on. I've mainly only heard that sort of thing in the MSM, which is out to destroy OWS. But few on the ground reports ever show that anyone would like to destroy property, and other than one outlier in Oakland, well, I haven't seen any of it since either in the entire Country.

      You?

    •  To the extent that the movement is dependent (9+ / 0-)

      on support from the broader public extended theoretical debates have risks. These nuances of advanced political theory are completely alien to the vast majority of the American public. THe reaction to such discussions is likely to be strongly negative.

      I can't tell anybody what they can and cannot talk about, but I can make some predictions about how other peole are likely to react to the conversation.

    •  I'm open to the discussion (10+ / 0-)

      and I think it would make for a good diary. But at this point in time, from a tactical standpoint, I just think it would be incredibly unwise and would only turn public sentiment against us. That is really my main reason for being against it.

      R.I.P. Troy Anthony Davis
      October 9, 1968 - September 21, 2011

      by SwedishJewfish on Sat Nov 12, 2011 at 06:40:58 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I don't disagree. But, no one is actually (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        SwedishJewfish, JesseCW

        committing these acts. We know of one incident and everybody is screaming. Might as well be Bush looking under the desk for WMDs on SNL.

        Please remember to Witness Revolution. It means so much to them that we pay attention.

        by UnaSpenser on Sat Nov 12, 2011 at 07:02:09 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I think there is concern (7+ / 0-)

          that there will be future incidents of it, especially with the impending raids, and especially in cities like Oakland. Actually I think it's kind of a foregone conclusion at this point. I think the best strategy to deal with BB is for protestors to do the kind of thing that was done in the video Jesse posted and physically block them from comitting acts of vandalism. Also, things like cleaning up after them (which OO did the next day) and putting out statements making it clear that what was done was not in the spirit of Occupy.

          R.I.P. Troy Anthony Davis
          October 9, 1968 - September 21, 2011

          by SwedishJewfish on Sat Nov 12, 2011 at 07:11:08 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I find it troubling that the police have arrested (6+ / 0-)

            over 4,000 peaceful protesters. They've beaten them, pepper-sprayed them, netted them like animals, shot them with rubber bullets, tackled them like linebackers. But, they're ready to abandon the movement because a very few people might break some windows. Something which has only happened once and which other protesters have tried to stop and have spoken out against.

            The "concern" is duly noted. We're living under a system of brutal oppression and dehumanization by a class of people who consider themselves above the law, but we'll give up fighting against that over some institutional window breaking.

            The sense of perspective is sad.

            I don't think it's the few people who believe that corporate property needs to be destroyed who are going to doom the movement. It's all the people who can't hold onto what the bigger picture is and are willing to abandon the movement the moment it doesn't look exactly like they think it should look.

            Revolution is needed. And it's not going to be easy. And not every moment of it is going look like our romantic ideals. Still, we need to have faith. What else is there? Going back to the status quo?

            Please remember to Witness Revolution. It means so much to them that we pay attention.

            by UnaSpenser on Sat Nov 12, 2011 at 07:31:52 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  But most people (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              foucaultspendulum, kurt

              are not following this the way we are...most people only get their information from the MSM. And if the MSM has footage of cars burning and punk kids all in black wearing masks (which most people see and automatically equate with dangerous criminals) running around, they are not going to see a movement that speaks to them.

              I will not give up on OWS for a few broken windows, but others will not be as forgiving or open minded. If there is more of what we saw last week, it will be a huge setback- but nothing that we cannot overcome, IMO.

              R.I.P. Troy Anthony Davis
              October 9, 1968 - September 21, 2011

              by SwedishJewfish on Sat Nov 12, 2011 at 08:07:09 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  if you worry about what "most people" think (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                JesseCW, SadieB

                you're doomed

                •  Depends on the direction (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  kurt, Jill Kay

                  we want this to go...a vangaurd movement of radical idealists, or a populist movement that speaks to the 99%

                  Given that "We are the 99%" is more or less our battle cry, I kind of assumed it was the latter. Thus, ensuring that the movement resonates with the majority (who are not radicalized and uninterested in debating the philisophical definition of "violence" or the finer points of obscure political theory) might be kind of important.

                  But, I'm beginning to get the impression that this is turning into the former. And that's ok too.  

                  R.I.P. Troy Anthony Davis
                  October 9, 1968 - September 21, 2011

                  by SwedishJewfish on Sat Nov 12, 2011 at 08:30:18 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Anarchists aren't interested in 'mass' change (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    barleystraw

                    my point being that they/I don't think it's possible or desirable to try to get everyone on board before acting, nor that 'the masses' can be 'lead' to liberty.  If Anarchists act without considering what "most people" think, it's not because they/we're trying to be "vanguards"- a "vanguard" is the part of an army that marches in front of the main body- we don't think that 'body' exists; Anarchists are not trying to be vanguards, but rather working on liberation only for those who actually desire it (and the rest can have whatever fate they choose).  Am I making sense?

                    •  Yes (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      mahakali overdrive, kurt, Matt Z

                      You actually are, shockingly ;)

                      In all seriousness, I have always thought that was the best way to have a true revolution- not have one army topple an imperial power, only to replace it with another-as we see happening in Egypt now, and as has happened in just about every popular revolt since the French Revolution. Instead, to occupy a smaller area, and transform it into the society we want. Eventually, people would see that there was a better option than living as serfs, and would join us. It would be a more natural progression. It would be inherently peaceful. And, I think it would be sustainable.

                      I like that idea. I think it could work. I see a lot of that happening right now within the encampments.

                      That said, I don't see how breaking windows and tagging buildings furthers that end, at all.

                      R.I.P. Troy Anthony Davis
                      October 9, 1968 - September 21, 2011

                      by SwedishJewfish on Sat Nov 12, 2011 at 08:53:56 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  I'm not sure anyone else does, either. And that's (3+ / 0-)

                        the point. There me a microscopic few who do, but they are greatly counterbalanced by those who don't.

                        What everyone seems to be focusing their fear on is that the GA wouldn't agree on a definition of violence. They extrapolate that to assume that this means they will endorse or not condemn property destruction. It's irrational.

                        What the GAs are doing is what is true to consensus. They aren't allowing the majority to have tyranny over a minority. They are allowing a process to unfold wherein they reach a solution which everyone can live with. Not one that every one agrees with. That is, finding a way to have everybody work together. A way which everyone can fully buy into. If that means opening up our pre-formed ideas of how we use words and allowing ourselves to consider other ways to express things, then so be it. And if it means taking the time to have a full and rich dialogue rather than rushing to conclusions which may make some people feel excluded, then we take that time.

                        Please remember to Witness Revolution. It means so much to them that we pay attention.

                        by UnaSpenser on Sat Nov 12, 2011 at 09:05:24 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  It doesn't, or maybe (4+ / 0-)

                        it was a brilliant strategy to provoke these kinds of serious discussions.

                        Yeah, probably not.

                        As for occupying area- that gets complicated.  If you try to take area from an existing State without its permission or sanction, expect to get attacked with whatever brutality it can muster.  There are, however, quite a few projects, houses, farms, etc, that internally operate on "post-revolutionary" principles while making compromises to stay legal, like bringing in enough money to pay rent/taxes and complying with whatever laws can't be avoided.  I frankly see most of these as just escapism.

                        But there is another possibility, which is to use the economic power of these kinds of projects, such as worker cooperatives (which are prefigurative on the principle that workers should own the means of production with democratic self-management), to start more prefigurative projects, gradually gaining economic power and supplanting the 'anti-social' economy.

                        In short- imagine what the country and the world would look like if unions hadn't spent hundreds of millions, if not billions, of dollars on electioneering over the last few decades, and instead invested in worker-owned businesses.

                        That's like what you said about providing an example; why would anyone want to work for a boss when they can work at their own direction?

                        •  Kind of reminds me (4+ / 0-)

                          of what they did in Argentina with the worker cooperatives. I saw the Naomi Klein documentary about that...I was amazed by how hard they had to fight to keep control over a factory that had been abandoned and served no purpose. But it was inspiring. And it makes a lot of sense.

                          I would love to see something like this  in Detroit. There are so many empty spaces that are just rotting out and ugly and empty that could be transformed into something beautiful. So many factories that could be re-occupied and give people back the jobs that have been taken away from them.

                          I would participate in that, whole heartedly.

                          R.I.P. Troy Anthony Davis
                          October 9, 1968 - September 21, 2011

                          by SwedishJewfish on Sat Nov 12, 2011 at 09:32:35 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                        •  The Steel Workers Union tried to buy (3+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          SwedishJewfish, kurt, SadieB

                          mills in Pittsburg and elsewhere to prevent there closing. The industry wouldn't sell to them to workers. Even mini mills require tens of millions to start and they don't employ large numbers of workers. But, Ran, you finally said something I agree with. Employee owned industries would beat this 'anti social' system by miles. You approve of the co-ops in Spain?

                    •  Short answer...No. (0+ / 0-)
                      Am I making sense?

                      One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors." -- Plato

                      by Jane Lew on Sat Nov 12, 2011 at 10:35:57 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                •  And looking at your feet is not watching where (0+ / 0-)

                  you are going.

    •  asdf (7+ / 0-)
      Because I find myself really curious about this concept that what we consider property, which is imbued with legal protection,

      Give me your address and I'll come down and take all your shit.  It's really not so theoretical when it's your fucking shit.
      •  again, you're not open to a dialogue. In this (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        RanDomino, KenBee, SadieB

        exploration it's about the difference between personal property which people need to get through their lives and property acquired for the sake of power and only accumulated through the exploitation of others. Those who see it this way usually target institutional property, not personal property.

        I didn't see the Egyptian Revolution die an early death when they burned down the headquarters of the ruling party. They didn't suddenly go out of control and destroy everything in their path. They never destroyed any personal properties. It was very targeted and seemed like a generative act of destruction.

        Would I have done it? I don't think so. But, I'd like to hear from those who chose that path. What is their thinking? Is there something for us to consider?

        Please remember to Witness Revolution. It means so much to them that we pay attention.

        by UnaSpenser on Sat Nov 12, 2011 at 07:06:48 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  I have a draft diary kicking around that talks abo (3+ / 0-)

      About just this. I need to dust that off. I can't watch the video but I'm wondering if it includes the guy who tackled some one who broke a window, because nothing says nonviolence like tackling people.

      There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

      by AoT on Sat Nov 12, 2011 at 06:49:36 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  I've seen this debate a lot lately (11+ / 0-)

      But frankly, the most frustrating thing in all of this is how LONG we've been waiting for something like OWS.  How long we've been gnashing our teeth watching people vote against their own interests or tune out of the political process altogether.  How long we've been waiting for the American people to wake up and start saying something about the downward spiral of economic injustice we've been seeing for decades.  

      We're not quite there yet, but a lot of Americans can relate to feeling overworked and underpaid, they can relate to losing their homes and their jobs and their status in the middle class.  They can relate to this sense that government is broken and serves only to enrich the already wealthy.  But far less of them can relate to discussions of property and violence that exist pretty far out of the current social norms.  I'm not saying its not a discussion worth having--it is--but the reality is that engaging in these kinds of tactics is doing harm to the public perception of this movement.  And dammit, I don't want to blow this.

      •  Yes, I get that people are speaking from fear. So (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        mahakali overdrive, KenBee, SadieB

        far, we've seen one incident of property destruction. And other protesters attacked them and spoke out against it.

        It's not likes there is an outbreak of property destruction. Or even a critical mass of people advocating for it.

        So, why all the fear-mongering.

        One of the core messages of the movement is that we have to stop operating from fear. We have stop letting fear divide us. We need to have faith in one another.

        Where's the faith?

        Please remember to Witness Revolution. It means so much to them that we pay attention.

        by UnaSpenser on Sat Nov 12, 2011 at 07:10:17 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  It was multiple instances on one day (6+ / 0-)

          Some likely targets, BofA, Chase, Wells Fargo, and the Whole Foods you see in the video.

          But also a Community Bank and several other local businesses that had closed down in solidarity.  Plus fires and barricades in the streets that brought out police action and got a lot of nonviolent protesters teargassed and arrested while the instigators ran for cover.  Its not fear, its anger at selfish and counterproductive actions.

          And if you think that guy in the video was ranting out of fear, you've never been to East Oakland.

          •  And cowardly. (0+ / 0-)
            anger at selfish and counterproductive actions.

            The entire letter written by the street medic is worth a read, link in the diary. Though I do not agree with a couple of her opinions.

            And also instructive are the comments to that letter posted by neighbors. A movement that insistantly imposes its violent "tactics" on the residents and businesses they need will neither succeed nor survive.

            Okay, the Government says you MUST abort your child. NOW do you get it?

            by Catskill Julie on Sun Nov 13, 2011 at 02:30:40 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

    •  Beware the slippery slope, though (4+ / 0-)

      when you start redefining "violence"....it tends to become an excuse for violent acts, which can be thrilling and revolutionary-romantic; if you really care about the 99%, you should consider how they (the ones who aren't at your GA) would react to property destruction (hint: probably the same way they always have--by being repulsed).  

      "All governments lie, but disaster lies in wait for countries whose officials smoke the same hashish they give out." --I.F. Stone

      by Alice in Florida on Sat Nov 12, 2011 at 09:50:54 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  like linking arms is now violence (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        RanDomino, SadieB

        let's now pin our star on a moving concept that we don't control like how the mainstream defines some word

        remember what happened to liberal?

        •  I thought we were talking about trashing (0+ / 0-)

          property....I don't recall anyone saying linking arms was a violent act (here on the blog...I don't know what's being argued at anyone's GA). I imagine there may be discussions ongoing about passive vs. active resistance to police attempts to clear encampments, but that's not what I was referring to...I'm talking about the old "property is exploitation" idea used to justify violent destruction of property, such as planting bombs in corporate HQs as was done in the 70s with the claim that it wasn't violent so long as no people were injured.

          "All governments lie, but disaster lies in wait for countries whose officials smoke the same hashish they give out." --I.F. Stone

          by Alice in Florida on Sun Nov 13, 2011 at 02:19:27 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  Haha, I'm not saying I SUPPORT it (0+ / 0-)

      "but I understand".

      Justified anger does not grant you unrestricted license.

      by GoGoGoEverton on Sun Nov 13, 2011 at 07:18:17 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Thank you MoT, thank you. (8+ / 0-)

    As I have said before this movement MUST be non violent. If you even tolerate violence you are embracing violence as the appropriate means of sorting out this mess.

    That is called violent revolution. It means you have to have more violence than the other guy to win. It also does not change the moral compass of this country in the slightest - it accepts that might makes right and if you can defend it it is yours, if not is is theirs.

    By working with non violence OWS is reawakening a forgotten truth that all men are created equal. I think the constitution or preamble or some such maked this claim and everyone seems to agree with it but nobody seems very willing to try and live accordingly. OWS is one such attempt.

    Thank you for flat out swearing as that is how I think it needs to be expressed.

  •  During the Toronto G20 some of those idjits (9+ / 0-)

    Destroyed some police cruisers, (which appeared to be conveniently abandoned BTW) and many people BEGGED them to stop.

    One in particular stood out. Some of us on the blogs posted the pictures asking "who is this?" He also had a real provocateur air about him.

    One site decided I was a very bad gurl for doing that and attempted to call me out for it. (failed badly)

    Fuck em.
    The cops just use the vandalism bullshit as an excuse to go after people with legitimate issues, and a non violent way to present them.

    Over a 1000 arrested. Many injured, total asshattery on the part of the cops and the government.
    But the public was demanding something be done.
    Those using black block tactics are just tools of the police state.
    Nice of them to play along with it eh?

    Fuddle Duddle--- Pierre Trudeau.... Canadian politics at......A Creative Revolution

    by pale cold on Sat Nov 12, 2011 at 06:19:27 PM PST

  •  So, do you have any other videos of the Black Bloc (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Catesby, KenBee

    or any other reports of how they are destroying the Occupy Movement from other parts of the Country, or at any other times beyond the day of the General Strike in Oakland, when it was a large public invitation which estimated in something like 30K people showing up?

    Any videos at all?

    Any particular problems?

    I did hear of something about a month back in Denver. Other than that, I haven't heard of anything.

    Anyone else?

    Anything recent in Oakland? Or any other Bay Area City?

    Because I really don't quite understand why we're fueling this otherwise. So please shine some light on my failure to understand the exigence here.

    •  *crickets? Nothing? Surely a whole diary (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      jpmassar

      about the problem with Black Bloc Anarchists means that there is... a problem...

      Right?

      •  The problem is that the powers-that-be (8+ / 0-)

        and the media, and anyone else who isn't sure about OWS has latched on to the vandalism and the "Black Bloc" menace as a way to destroy OWS.

        By not condemning the vandalism et al, as was almost inevitable given the structure of how the GA etc works, #OccupyOakland walked right into their trap.

        You are correct that BB has not been a problem, at least that I have seen or heard, since the General Strike.  But that's almost irrelevant now.  It's the symbolism that has everyone, one side or the other, up in arms (so to speak).

        •  So the best way to combat this meme (0+ / 0-)

          would not be, in my opinion, to denounce the Black Bloc, or worse, draw continuous attention to it from a defensive position, but to stand your ground and point out that they were operating in a guerrilla style, as an Independent group, and that you don't know who they were, they have never identified themselves, and you aren't responsible for their behavior, in fact, it troubled the Oakland GA so much that they cleaned up their mess for the city of Oakland.

          In fact, they could be provocateurs and others should be damned careful of provocateurs.

          And I would probably also redirect the conversation to the fact that since then, there has been no further presence of similar destructive activity. But if there is, wake me up and we'll talk.

          Sort of like I've been doing on the DK.

          That would be what I would see as a stronger way to reframe the message. But more so, if you Google "Black Bloc Anarchists Oakland," the DK actually is one of the first to come up!

          It's spreading this quite a bit you know.

          So I say stop throwing gas on some fire.

          If they're going to swiftboat you, play it carefully. Don't be on the defense though. There's nothing to BE defensive about here. You've all done nothing wrong.

          •  Also, to only discuss it (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            BigAlinWashSt

            when it comes up would be a real start. If there's a big story, then respond. But rehashing old ones? Why? Was it in the media today or something?

            Where is the exigence that prompted this diary?

          •  The JoePa answer: Not my problem. (0+ / 0-)

            Isolated incident.  Look forward, not back.  Hey, big game this weekend!

            •  Your analogy is terrible for any number of reasons (0+ / 0-)

              Here are two:

              1.  A protest group's declination to turn itself into an arm of the very police department that has been (literally) cracking protester's skulls is significantly different than a top campus official failing to adequately report a serious criminal act by a known individual to a friendly police department.

              2.  Vandalism is not child rape.

          •  so, your efforts here are clearly about control (0+ / 0-)

            and not about ideas or issues or problems on the ground?

            the black bloc has also been an issue in Portland, which once enjoyed the participation of the police in the Occupation.

            it was also responsible for similarly disrupting a march of 500,000 peaceful protestors in Rome last Spring. same as Oakland. Instead of the fact that 500,000 people marched and came together peacefully, there were images of a few masked black bloc members rioting in the streets.

            you are failing to also understand the historical aspects of the critiques being offered here (as well as the very fact that they are self-critiques from within the Occupation). This is how the left has been discredited innumerable times. We have been through this before. This is why so many of the 40,000 people who peacefully protested during the General Strike are dismayed about what has come out of the GA and OO, at least officially, since the strike: which is no blanket condemnation of the Black Bloc, memes from the black bloc ideology being used to justify NOT excluding the black bloc, Statements from GA's that members of the Black Bloc called for the General Strike and should, therefore, not be excluded from the Occupation (as they have been here from the beginning, etc.). And then you have the adoption of black bloc ideological views at GA meetings and black bloc rhetoric coming out of votes on non-violence resolutions and you get the shit storm you are witnessing here.

            THis is why people are upset. Your claim that this happened a week ago and is over now is just not plausible.

            The effect of your statements on here M.O. is to either apologize for what OO has done with regard the Black Bloc, which has been questionable, or apologize for the BB itself as a tactic and ideology that OO, for reasons that are unclear to me and everyone else, continues to embrace or refuse to extricate itself from.

            DKos did not cause any of this. This is all traceable to members of OO itself and statements coming out of the Occupation and GA. To blame it on Dkos is just absurd.

            OO's own FaceBook page features an effort to keep the Black Bloc within the Occupation and facilitate "dialogue" between the non-violent protestors and members of the black bloc. People are upset because they see the inability of OO to denounce and reject these tactics as a stunning capitulation to the powers that be and a giving up of the power and potential of the Occupation itself.

            I'm sorry to see someone in such denial over this.

            Moreover, I find your implicit defense of BB ideology repugnant given your own efforts to demonize those who disagree with you on Dkos. You have attempted to smear me personally, to claim I am not part of the Occupation or was never there, that I do not live in the Bay Area, all of which are lies and efforts to turn me into an object of hate (as a way of discrediting my critiques of BB ideology within the Occupation and the toleration thereof). I have done nothing but debate with you. In response, you have resorted to demonization, insinuation, and to somehow blame me for pointing out the actions that OO and the GA have taken.

          •  mahakali, there are so many other sources of (0+ / 0-)

            critique out there that have NOTHING to do with DKos. I do believe or hope you are a sincere person who is just misguided or else I'd have to conclude that you are the Karl Rove of OO, who is looking to deliberately disseminate misinformation in an effort to deflect what are serious concerns that many who support OWS and its goals have about what is taking place in Oakland.

            Here, for example, is source completely independent of Dkos talking about these issues over a week ago (and there are many).

            http://www.correntewire.com/...

            •  Filed away under weirdest insults ever on the DK (0+ / 0-)

              toward me: I am now the "Karl Rove" of OO... thanks for the laugh, at least.

              Do you think you might throw a Godwin in there too while you're at it? I'm Jewish. So it would be like a definite trifecta of awesomely weird allegations if you could please go down that lily-laden path as well.

    •  Mahak, check out my black bloc diary. (0+ / 0-)

      Justified anger does not grant you unrestricted license.

      by GoGoGoEverton on Sun Nov 13, 2011 at 07:21:53 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Thanks for the diary (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Catesby

    But please lose the self-aggrandizing profile pic.

    Preaching to the choir and then shooting them when they don't sing loud enough isn't a good strategy for increasing the size of the congregation.

    by Matisyahu on Sat Nov 12, 2011 at 06:30:49 PM PST

  •  MoT here is another letter (13+ / 0-)

    that was written in response to BB that you may wish to add...it was a comment on an article about OO:

    A short History on the political climate of Oakland, and how progress is impeded by groups such as Black bloc

    As Oaklanders, geographically, politically, and spiritually, we have all seen political unrest protest, progressiveness, radicalism, and all manner of demonstration here between the late 60's to the present day.

    We have also had a chance to see, and experience first hand, which of these strategies and methods of protest and demonstration have been effective for long term real change in our neighborhoods, and school systems, as well as local businesses, and the working class quality of life in general.

    Recently during the much-needed, and inspiring Occupy Oakland Movement, we have all had yet another chance to witness first hand, various political and social ideas about what constitutes progress and positive change.

    During this process we have also, once again have had another chance to become familiar with so-called "radical" groups, who come from place far away from Oakland, and as visitors to our city, claiming monopolies on the ideas, terminologies, and on the ideological morality of the Movement known as Occupy Oakland.

    Historically, these ultra radical groups have had several things in common. They were all comprised of nearly all-white membership, they contained nearly no Oakland Natives, they seemed more than ready to start fights with the police while other people could be injured, and sadly, history, also shows nearly all these groups to have been infiltrated by covert intelligence agencies from the United states Government. And that all the while, contained some of the most fervent, heated, radical sounding, and rabble rousing speakers of any organizations on the left.

    The latest example, so so-called "Back Bloc” who ironically, are neither Black, nor are they from the block.

    A group comprised of out of town, 20-something, "radical", hostile, undisciplined, politically unschooled, nearly all white, "protesters" who now come to Oakland, like so many groups before them demanding that we, the people they falsely claim to represent, and who they claim to fight for, bow before their political ideals, or we become branded as 'sellouts" or "traitors".

    Traditionally speaking Oaklanders do not jump through ideological hoops, for visiting out of town circus troupes, and there is a reason for this.

    This, is a very old set of ideas, and one that has never meant positive change for Oaklanders, and we've seen it hundreds of times. Most of them better done, and better, thought out. And even in those cases, every last one of them was infiltrated by the FBI and other covert intelligence.

    Check your East Bay political history. In fact, don't even respond to this message until you have.
    ________

    Elements of Reason: the absence or presence of justice.
    • Element 1:

    Anarchists like Black Bloc have no true Political credibility with people of color nor the working class in Oakland.

    Oakland neither needs nor has invited some of the things the black block have brought here, and here, black bloc is talking to a community where family and friends of many of us were imprisoned and killed in cointelpro actions before most of the members of BB were born.

    These are some life and death issues to people who lived through the very real bloodshed of COINTELPRO, the sick, imaginative, and well funded attacks from Edgar J. Hoover, and the downfall of the Black Panther party. For a young group of idealistic, all-white and often disrespectful political freshmen to come to Oakland and attempt to dictate the nature of dialog to the working class and people of color, while they smash property, and start fights with police, and enter into disrespectful discourses with local people leading with their egos, and hubris, exposes a startling lack of reason, not to mention regional disrespect for the people of this town.

    You see, we, those of us who have lived through the aforementioned bloodshed and death, we who created the town that gave rise to medical marijuana clinics, and outlets like Oaksterdam, political parties like the BPP, public services like Centro De La Raza, cutting edge shelters for battered women, free clinics, the only congressperson to vote against the war, and one of the worlds strongest independent arts, music, and literature scenes, we will be here long after groups like Black bloc have left our city, and the mess they created and have flown back to their own homes, in places like Ohio, Portland, Eugene, Paris, and NYC

    We, will be left here with whatever happens in Oakland. And BB are not the first misled, elitist, (and highly suspicious to many) group to attempt to claim credit for political struggle and change that we achieved here before decades before they came.
    It is a common trait among white radicals on the new left to have a political ideology firmly grounded in capitalist hollywood romantic images, one that instead of doing the very real and tedious work of changing policy, feeding children, and providing medical care for people with no money, opts for the quick flash of notoriety when they smash a bank window or break something belonging to a corporation. In this case, also broken were the windows and properties of several long-term-resident, mom and pops stores and services that provide our people in Oakland with what they need to make it through the year here as we work struggle and involvedourselves in the fight to keep our heads above water.

    BY doing so, Black bloc has technically, politically, spiritually, and ideologically relinquished any claim to political credibility, or moral high ground in this part of the world.

    There is a Remedy to this: If Black Bloc is sincere about representing the people, real about wanting to help Oakland, and real about being involved with serious struggle that includes the needs and views of people of color and the working class in Oakland, Black Bloc is invited to go to the next general assembly and humbly ask the people of Oakland what our political will is, and how they may assist. Anything short of this will expose Black Bloc and all other groups like it as political counterfeits, if not subversive agent provocateurs.

    Element 2:
    Pseudo Leftist Politics, and real representation of Oakland, by Oakland

    Attempts to piggyback on the backs of real long-term progressives, who care about working class families, and to then pass it off as "revolution" or "progress' exposes a vast absence of logic, history, respect for the working class, and BB's actions constitute pseudo leftist theater at it's finest, and are a mockery of real long term change.

    Oakland has BEEN occupied. For 40 year now.

    These neophyte political groups from other places, who have elected to promote things here that they do not promote in their own towns and cities, have just arrived just very late to the party. Decades late. This is a vastly hypocritical political development, and smacks of racism, and elitism in politics and action.

    Our desire is only for this city to be represented by people who actually have not only a long standing relationship with it, but also a passable level of respect for those of us here who paid in blood for some the progressive advances and freedoms groups like Black Bloc take for granted and obviously still have not studied.

    People who are not visiting students, but working mothers, grandmothers, mechanics, painters, bakers, childcare providers, food vendors, bike repair people, bartenders, physical therapists, prostitutes and sex workers, cafe baristas, and others, who all took time out of their lives to be a part of occupy Oakland, and should have their time respected and not sabotaged by people that fall into NONE of these categories.

    Technically speaking, people coming to a town from other places, and attempting to impose their political will on the residents who are mostly working class people and people of color, and then publicly attacking them when they refuse to roll over like dogs and do and think as they are told, is a proof positive of the presence of imperial thinking, and white privilege. I have seen the rampant growth of this in the white left for decades now. BB is just the latest outbreak.

    Element 3:

    Weighing the positive/negative effects of street-based vandalism actions, verses real protest.

    A protest, march, or demonstration (I hope you already know the difference) for us, living here can cost over a million dollars in man hours, lost wages, and other expenses incurred when thousands of people take a day off work, or strike to demonstrate, or have someone take care of their kids while they come to the general assembly. It is very expensive to the infrastructure of our city, and to our local businesses, and students.

    ONE smashed window, which will cost a major financial absolutely ZERO. (if you cared to understand finance, and how those institutions operate) can break up a demonstration, or shut down an assembly or get a place cleared out, totally ruining any chance of a real and successful occupation.

    This is bad logic. and the "symbolic" meaning of smashing something that people here already hate, and risking the efforts of thousands, and then acting like you are part of some vanguard movement bringing revolution to Oakland is so far out of the realm of reality that it makes your entire effort here a shameful exercise in comedic role playing..

    Element 4: The reality of potentially confrontational situations,

    Black bloc has clearly displayed that they lack any kind of discipline, their movements are totally tracked, and they don't seem to know that computer based riot and urban warfare scenarios have been a part of police intel and training since Regan implemented it in the late 1960's

    It does nothing but make a bunch of police overtime pay, and give them more data to use in their scenarios, It also can potentially get a bystander killed.
    Politically, despite your feelings, these are all historically speaking hallmarks of failing movements and tactics.

    A word:

    We (Oaklanders, who are sympathetic) are completely behind OO, support the reason, and the logic, thought the strike was brilliant, (it has sent shock waves throughout the country and connect unions across the US) and As long term Oakland residents who have seen far above our share of death, and  riots, and violent cops, and ill-advised movements that nearly all turned out to be government infiltrated.

    We respect real change and real progress. But it has to be real, and about the youth and future of this town or it's fake.

    And if it does not represent the working class here then it's fake.

    And if it's all one color, it's fake.

    And if it doesn’t represent the infrastructure of our city, then it’s fake..

    And if it's all from out of town it's fake.

    Local long term progress and respect for a movement’s ability to make a point and make real change without falling onto old traps and stupid behaviors? = Real.

    Fashionable, out of town, imported, badly planned and executed "tactic" by obviously inexperienced, and politically uneducated, nearly all-white youth claiming to represent this family of colors and a workers base that is Oakland? = Fake.

    We invite real help from real people who respect the real working class. We all do. That’s why we support Occupy Oakland.

    Black Block and all groups like it, are asked to cease hostilities, cease claiming to represent us, and quit trying to instigate fights they cannot finish, cease talking down to the local citizens as though they were dogs to be trained, and cease the false, and ill-advised random smash and grab “tactics” that have nearly already ruined the progress that Occupy Oakland has made, not to mention the four decades of progress that were achieved before anyone from out of town ever showed up on our doorstep,. And we will continue to struggle on behalf of Oakland far into the future.

    Thus far, Black bloc and groups like it have neither earned the credibility, shown the ability, possessed the logic, presented the tactical expertise, nor shown the actual social fire to implement any real change, which is why they settle for quick sound bites and press blurbs, complete with micro-effectual smash and grab raids that play directly into police and government plans more perfectly than a than any counterintelligence agency could have possibly hoped for. How do we know this?

    This is Oakland. Check your history.

    We ask that you leave Oakland to Oaklanders, who are more than qualified to represent our people minus the disrespect, hubris, racism, potential violence, and vastly misled and uneducated political thought processes that many our of town so-called radical groups have seen fit to import here.

    THIS IS OAKLAND.

    We invite you to all return to your cities now, where you are urged to implement the things you claim to believe in, among your own people, and with your own neighborhoods, and property, where you can feel free to smash your own homes, or stores, and hold yourselves responsible for the state of the world, because it is you who creates it. Anything else will further prove to Oakland and the world, the falseness and dishonesty of your claim to be an advocate of the people.

    This is Oakland, and you, do not represent this place. We do. We were here before you came and we’ll be here after you are gone.

    Yours truly,

    Piero Amadeo Infante


    R.I.P. Troy Anthony Davis
    October 9, 1968 - September 21, 2011

    by SwedishJewfish on Sat Nov 12, 2011 at 06:33:33 PM PST

    •  As one of those long term progessive Oaklanders (10+ / 0-)

      who has put in the countless long, hard (and often tedious) hours fighting to bring some measure of social justice and economic equity to Oakland working class communities - and who will be here long after these white faux-revolutionary  tourists are long gone, all I can say to the above is: Preach It.

      Now is not the time for a circular firing squad when the other side is teabagging you in the face.

      by goblue72 on Sat Nov 12, 2011 at 06:48:53 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I have never been to Oakland (7+ / 0-)

        and have little knowledge of the history this man speaks of, but I could feel his passion and the righteousness in his words and thought they rang very true, indeed.

        Especially this part:

        Thus far, Black bloc and groups like it have neither earned the credibility, shown the ability, possessed the logic, presented the tactical expertise, nor shown the actual social fire to implement any real change, which is why they settle for quick sound bites and press blurbs, complete with micro-effectual smash and grab raids that play directly into police and government plans more perfectly than a than any counterintelligence agency could have possibly hoped for

        R.I.P. Troy Anthony Davis
        October 9, 1968 - September 21, 2011

        by SwedishJewfish on Sat Nov 12, 2011 at 06:53:42 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  aha! (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      SwedishJewfish, Matt Z

      i hadn't seen this comment before i quoted Piero downthread.

      as a contemporary of his, i must second that emotion.

  •  There's *got* to be something (7+ / 0-)

    that can be done about the fact the the Black Blockers always fuck things up.  Every single protest in Portland, I swear has been hijacked in some way, large or small, by these dumbasses.  It's happening again RIGHT NOW AS WE SPEAK as Occupy Portland prepares to face eviction.  the people who bring violence to tonight's showdown?  I stake my name they're all black bloc.  Occupy folks have planned passive civil disobedience.  Anarchists are going to be what's on the news.  Throwing shit and creating chaos.

    Okay, so it hasn't happened yet, but that's what's in MY crystal ball.  I am SO MAD!

    Believe in your cause without hatred; Fight for your cause without violence.

    by CJB on Sat Nov 12, 2011 at 06:34:22 PM PST

    •  You could have people assigned to keep an (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      CJB

      eye on them.  You could post security to them.  You could coordinate w/ cops in advance such that if they're seen they're followed by cops (or arrested for wearing masks).  

      There's a lot that could be done.  But I doubt Occupy really cares all that much either way; the attribution of violence to them is probably warranted in light of that indifference.

      •  In many cases, Johnny, that may be true, (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        VClib, kurt

        but OccupyPDX has kept an eye out.  They've been very watchful.  Turned a bunch of rocks and projectiles over to police when they (occupy folks) found them in tents.  Really, the OccupyPDX folks and PDX police have worked pretty well together.  (And I am being told this by folks on the ground.  I am not at OPDX, just to be clear.)

        Believe in your cause without hatred; Fight for your cause without violence.

        by CJB on Sat Nov 12, 2011 at 06:51:46 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Oh no, not the headlines (0+ / 0-)

      Come on, are you more interested in getting headlines, or being successful?  The media's only been covering OWS as sympathetically as it has out of confusion.  Did you think it was going to last anyway?  They'd think of some way of smearing shit on it sooner or later.

      •  So we should welcome those (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        kurt, Johnny Q

        who subvert teh Occupy message becasue... the media is confused?  

        You have completely obfuscated my point.  The "anarchists" hog the headlines with violence and chaos.  They leave the people making the REAL point behind.  I am NOT afraid of headlines as made by the Occupy movement.  I reject the headlines grabbed by those who foment chaos and bullshit.

        And sooner or later is relevant.  The shit smearing happens sooner because of the masked idiots.  I reject them.

        Believe in your cause without hatred; Fight for your cause without violence.

        by CJB on Sat Nov 12, 2011 at 08:54:19 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  The media hates you. (0+ / 0-)

          They only have one job: To make anyone who cares about anything real look like a fool.  They only cover(ed) OWS as much as they did because they hadn't been told what to think of it.  Now they're going more and more with the old standbys- these people are filthy, they're violent, they're whiners, etc.  It doesn't matter that it's not true; lying is their job.  They're not going to report the protesters' message with anything remotely resembling fairness.  And if there is an alternative message getting out over, for example, Facebook, well- that's not media!  It's direct data!

          •  Um, no. They have one job: to make money. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            kurt, Matt Z

            And while we may agree on many of your other points, they don't address the fact the the black bloc contingent is not part of the solution.  the faux-anarchists cost valuable credibility.  They do.

            Believe in your cause without hatred; Fight for your cause without violence.

            by CJB on Sat Nov 12, 2011 at 09:21:20 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

    •  The obvious solution: (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      RanDomino

      is to ask that the Black Bloc use their destruction to draw police presence away from Occupy, instead of towards it.

      If they want to strike and flee like they're street warriors, read some Sun Tzu and do it right.

      It is the rule in war, if our forces are ten to the enemy's one, to surround him; if five to one, to attack him; if twice as numerous, to divide our army into two.

      etc

      Groups: Toolbox and Trolls... to preserve the best & the worst of DailyKos.

      by opendna on Sat Nov 12, 2011 at 11:43:30 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  This has been a bone of contention at our GAs (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    SwedishJewfish, kurt

    at Occupy Seattle. But Our GA was set up with a 80% super-majority requirement to pass anything remotely contentious. Our GAs makes the US Senate look agile by comparison.

    Gasoline made from the tar sands gives a Toyota Prius the same impact on climate as a Hummer using gasoline made from oil. ~ Al Gore

    by Lefty Coaster on Sat Nov 12, 2011 at 06:35:11 PM PST

    •  Yeah (0+ / 0-)

      Sadly it has been a bone of contention which is hilarious considering no one has done anything relating to property destruction.   But as you  know it's a drama an hour around there so if they didn't go on and on about this it would be something else.

      After my experience at Occupy Portland last night I have nothing but mad love for my fellow occupiers in Seattle.   I will fill you in when I see you again.

      I'd rather die than give you control ~ Trent Reznor

      by JustJennifer on Sun Nov 13, 2011 at 12:00:16 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" (6+ / 0-)

    Ike saw it, even way back in '42.

    Great diary. This one should go viral; shared, tipped and rec'd. Thanks MoT

    Wakeful people make better democracy

    by Hammerhand on Sat Nov 12, 2011 at 06:46:52 PM PST

  •  This "Black Bloc" smells like Koch to me... (3+ / 0-)

    In the video, at 2.34, the masked guy on the right does not look like one of the regular Occupy folk to me. He looks rather "trained."

    "Corruptio Optimi Pessima" (Corruption of the best is the worst)

    by zenox on Sat Nov 12, 2011 at 06:49:38 PM PST

  •  Yet sometimes the police are the (9+ / 0-)

    instigators.  I think they used to call it "Cointelpro" back in the 60's.  The oldest trick in the book to stop civil disobedience.

    Check it how the Vancouver police got caught red-handed trying to do this kind of thing:

    http://www.youtube.com/...

    These types of antics tend to backfire and can easily accelerate things into civil war--if you look around the globe as to what has happened recently.

    Separation of Church and State AND Corporation

    by Einsteinia on Sat Nov 12, 2011 at 07:01:56 PM PST

  •  He hates those chairs! (9+ / 0-)

    It just seems that there are so many more effective ways to demonstrate against the powers that be than by throwing friggin patio chairs at Starbucks.

    Sheesh.  I would think the banks worry a lot more about the 70,000 some accounts they lost thanks to the organizing efforts of Occupiers than having to call out a sign company to fix the Wells Fargo sign.

    Economic protest is the way to go.  We just need to keep building the numbers up so that 70,000 becomes 7 million.

    •  Demonstrate what? (0+ / 0-)

      The word "demonstrate" means showing something, being an example and a plausible promise.  Armies march to demonstrate their ability to kill and destroy.  Unions march to demonstrate their ability to shut down industry if necessary.  Protesters demonstrate what power?

      Getting people to take money out of banks is (arguably) direct action, not protest or demonstration.

  •  So who are these (7+ / 0-)

    Black Bloc people? They surely aren't anarchists as they show up in a bloc to start with they are organized and have no purpose except to reek havoc, why what's their problem with the non violent protests  They were in Madrid  wearing the same outfits and doing the same things. I was talking to a friend a liberal,  even a radical,  maybe even an anarchist, a real one and she said their cops. CT? Maybe but I doubt it., my husband thinks so too and he is no rad, just another disgruntled citizen who supports Occupy. You don't think the global powers that be won't throw these wringers into the movement?

    •  Because there are essentially professional (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      kurt, Matt Z, shaharazade

      shits stirrers, people who don black and go out to break things, it allows for police to easily join in.  The police have been caught attempting to start things by pretending to be part of these "anarchists" but at the same time there is an international movement from which these people come from.  Either way, they are a huge problem because their actions hurt any real movement and #OWS needs to figure out the best way in each of their areas to deal with it.  

    •  black bloc organizations or tactics originated (0+ / 0-)

      in Germany. I think.

  •  Anarchists have marched (6+ / 0-)

    in previous war protests before, and they burn flags and just make asses out of themselves and ruin the event for everyone

    My heroes have the heart to live the life I want to live.

    by JLFinch on Sat Nov 12, 2011 at 07:41:24 PM PST

  •  100% Agreed. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    lurkyloo, kurt

    I condemn all destruction of property, arson, and any other violent asshattery, that's not what Occupy is about! People engaging in these acts shame us all and we won't tolerate it.

    "Watch what you say or they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, fanatical, criminal..."-7.75, -5.54

    by solesse413 on Sat Nov 12, 2011 at 07:42:52 PM PST

    •  Well, I condemn (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      RanDomino

      all excessive drinking, obvious pot smoking, and general asshattery at the occupation sites and plenty of non-anarchists engage in that.    I guess that is ok though, because this only affects real people (via fist fights, sexually inappropriate behavior, etc) and destruction of property must be much worse.

      I'd rather die than give you control ~ Trent Reznor

      by JustJennifer on Sun Nov 13, 2011 at 12:02:51 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Condemning bb violence`is not supporting (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        solesse413

        police violence or dangerous behavior by other people in the camps, or marches, who aren't noble anarchists.

        OK?

      •  What's your point? (0+ / 0-)

        So, because I didn't include all the stuff you listed you're going to aim your pointy little sarcastic arrow at my post?
        I also condemn intimidation and violence on the part of the cops, but since that wasn't addressed in this diary it was left out, ditto for the things you listed.

        "Watch what you say or they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, fanatical, criminal..."-7.75, -5.54

        by solesse413 on Mon Nov 14, 2011 at 06:15:21 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  How to deal with Black Bloc - they are the 1% (8+ / 0-)

    Treat them on the assumption they are saboteurs doing the bidding of the 1%, defending the 1%. They are like a bad cop, only worse.

    Bad cops get videotaped and exposed. Black Bloc being vandals are justifying the worst possible actions by the police in the best interests of the 1%. Black Bloc is therefore part of the 1% and need to be treated accordingly.

    If someone wears a mask they are immediately under suspicion of being black bloc so folks should start taping them and demanding they take off the mask. Even if it is an Anonymous mask. If they won't unmask then they are not welcome at OWS and should leave. If they have a legit reason to be anonymous then they should not be participating in public protest.

  •  It was a week and a half ago. Give it a rest. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mahakali overdrive

    It's interesting that the outrage from the left is drowning out the outrage on the right about the so-called violence in Oakland. I was there, and nobody was under attack until the police showed up and attack us.

    Nobody likes vandalism, just like nobody likes the rape and throwing out the homeless that members of Occupy Wall Street have been accused of. I am not there so it's up to thier organization to police it's own. I'm often not happy about what I hear from there, but I also don't wet my bed over what you do and publicly denounce it... over and over again... for 9 days. We get it.

    The quorum clocked in at exactly 100 yesterday so if one of you fine non-violent folks wants to bring twenty friends to swing the vote the time is ripe.

    "To the People (aka the 99%): Our only demand is an invitation: Join Us!" -- Occupy Oakland Demands 10/13/2011

    by mic check oakland on Sat Nov 12, 2011 at 07:54:12 PM PST

    •  Protesters were taped damaging property (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Grabber by the Heel

      which is irrelevant to the presence of police even if the police were acting as complete arseholes.

      It isn't likely to be an isolated case. It needs to have a response or it will become the easiest path to destroy OWS. It is a serious bug in the system.

      •  But we did apologize (4+ / 0-)

        and help clean up the damage. We just aren't passing the non-violence resolution because many of us think it that passing it is an admission that we're violent thugs which gives the police moral authority to crack down.

        There's more than one way to screw in a lightbulb. Non-violence is one way. The way that unions in the early 1900's took (which won us most of our labor laws in the US) was pretty far from non-violent... and it worked.

        If you want to win this thing confrontations will happen and not all of them will be pretty. We can either all hang together or we will surely be hung separately.

        Why we are obsessed at DK with property damage and not the harm that comes to people is really beyond me.

        "To the People (aka the 99%): Our only demand is an invitation: Join Us!" -- Occupy Oakland Demands 10/13/2011

        by mic check oakland on Sat Nov 12, 2011 at 08:15:49 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  asdf (0+ / 0-)
          Why we are obsessed at DK with property damage and not the harm that comes to people is really beyond me.

          Because the first makes the second more likely?

          •  Wake me up when that happens (0+ / 0-)

            The only people who have been harmed so far have been harmed at the hands of the police. It's disturbing to be that a small but vocal segment of DK is handwringing about broken windows, yet seem to show very little concern about police brutality that has been excessive and ongoing. Talk about screwed up, misplaced priorities.

            "To the People (aka the 99%): Our only demand is an invitation: Join Us!" -- Occupy Oakland Demands 10/13/2011

            by mic check oakland on Sun Nov 13, 2011 at 09:50:42 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  That's not fair (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              AustinSF

              There's been a lot of concern about police brutality.  Even I've found that some of the concern has been blown out of proportion.

              •  Yes, you're right. (0+ / 0-)

                Police violence against people has been blown out of proportion, but the vandalism of private property hasn't... except for the constant news coverage of a story 10 days old by CNN, MSNBC, Fox, ABC, NBC, CBS.

                What that tells me is that in the upside down world the breaking of a bank window is an unpardonable offense, but police violently beating protestors for enjoying their first amendment rights is overblown.

                It's amazing that people still wonder what the message of the Occupy movement is.

                "To the People (aka the 99%): Our only demand is an invitation: Join Us!" -- Occupy Oakland Demands 10/13/2011

                by mic check oakland on Sun Nov 13, 2011 at 11:01:58 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Calm down a bit? (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Grabber by the Heel

                  After Scott Olsen got put in hospital by the cops we showed up and voted for the general strike.  

                  We then marched in huge numbers.

                  Pretending that we didn't step up against police violence is just ridiculous.

                  Having done that, however, I don't think that it's inconsistent at all not to want the people I am giving cover to to not terrorize civilians by smashing out the windows of whole foods whilst they're inside buying groceries with their kids.

                  Having actually been the victim of a riot before, being put in hospital by the rioters, I think it is unconscionable for the Occupiers not to condemn these violent acts.

                  I support trying to achieve a better world.  Still waiting for someone to explain to me how having black clad thugs freely attacking buildings and protesters (yes, they did attack people at Whole Foods and at the burning barricades) is going to be part of that better world.

                  •  So we should drop the violence on people thing (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    RanDomino

                    (because that's totally past history) and just concentrate for over a week on the vandalism to low-wage, anti-union, anti-strike Whole Foods. Gotcha. Who cares about foreclosures? What we should really worry about is Wells Fargo got it's windows smashed (which will be paid with my overdraft fees).

                    Hey, not to state the obvious here, but weren't most of the companies who were subjected to vandalism on November 2nd kind of, y'know, assholes?

                    I didn't participate in any of this or condone it. Just sayin.

                    "To the People (aka the 99%): Our only demand is an invitation: Join Us!" -- Occupy Oakland Demands 10/13/2011

                    by mic check oakland on Sun Nov 13, 2011 at 04:41:01 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  Well said. Sorry you were hospitalized. (0+ / 0-)

                    What happened to you is what most of us want to prevent happening to others at OWS events.

                    To have answered the outrage of what happened to Scott Olsen with a peaceful march, would perhaps have saved the Oakland Camp.

                    Vandals made the eviction politically acceptable.

  •  "By any means necessary" (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    KenBee, evilrick
    I was not the one to invent lies: they were created in a society divided by class and each of us inherited lies when we were born. It is not by refusing to lie that we will abolish lies: it is by eradicating class by any means necessary.
     Jean Paul Sartre, Dirty Hands: act 5, scene 3. 1963
    We declare our right on this earth to be a man, to be a human being, to be respected as a human being, to be given the rights of a human being in this society, on this earth, in this day, which we intend to bring into existence by any means necessary.
     — Malcolm X, 1965

    Whether or not acts of vandalism are productive at this point is a fair question.  To me they appear at this point to be counterproductive, and on that basis I am dismayed by them.

    However, whether a protest movement should strictly disavow any possibility of "violent" acts in support of legitimate goals is another question entirely, and not one I'm sure we should be so quick to answer in the affirmative.

    As the quotes above demonstrate, there is an intellectual framework for a civil rights movement which does not expressly disavow the use of force.  Indeed, many would argue that by disavowing the use of force you give license to the oppressor to continue oppressing without fear of retribution.

    A pacifist stance on civil disobedience relies upon the belief that over time the general populace will recognize the righteousness of the protester and the cruelty of the oppressor.  It is unclear to me whether such a stance -- whether simply occupying open space -- will yield the necessary results under these circumstances.  It is not clear to me that purely passive resistance would have worked in Libya, for example, or whether it can work in Saudi Arabia.  There may come a time when OWS needs to consider more direct action.  Occupying foreclosed buildings and putting them to productive use, for example.

    In sum:  I agree that acts of vandalism at this point and time are counterproductive.  I do not necessarily agree that disavowing any more direct action at some future point is wise.

  •  Look at it in perspective, Jesse, (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mahakali overdrive, Betty Pinson

    there are and have always been groups like this in every action and in every movement, and a significant number either have clear destructive rather than anarchist goals, and an even more significant number are gathering intel for the LEOs or are themselves agents provocateurs or even simply anti-social criminals manipulating the situation. Their analysis is less about history than making personal history, which is in itself adventurist and opportunistic, if not counter-revolutionary. If segregating them and surrendering them to the cops swiftly and efficiently ensures collective discipline and non-violence, then future direct action can occur more effectively and with much clearer political support, solidarity, direction and message.  

    I am off my metas! Präsidentenelf-maßschach; Warning-Some Snark Above"Nous sommes un groupuscule" (-9.50; -7.03)

    by annieli on Sat Nov 12, 2011 at 08:18:26 PM PST

  •  question (8+ / 0-)

    At this point, why don't the protesters all sit down when the police blockade appears?  Assemble or march, and as soon as the police start lining up, sit down!  That way it is obvious who the bad apples vandalizing are, and if/when the police do their thing.....well you know how that would look with peaceful protesters on the ground.  Am I completely off base with this?

  •  Black Blockers = Pigs (9+ / 0-)

    They need to have their masks removed in public whenever they show up.

    Protesters are citizens willing to show their faces and be counted.

    If you don't show your face, we are going to assume you are a black blocker/riot cop intent on destruction.

    Both are enemies of this movement.

  •  you got too much time on your hands (1+ / 1-)
    Recommended by:
    barleystraw
    Hidden by:
    GoGoGoEverton

    to spend on this. Why not condemn the violence perpetuated by Obama with his drones? Why hasn't Obama spoken up against the police violence that is rampant against all of the occupations? have you spoken up on this?

  •  Heard a caller from Occupy Portland (8+ / 0-)

    and one from Occupy Seattle call in to Thom Hartmann last Wednesday. Both said that the movements in both places were beginning to be disrupted by lack of ability to come to consensus, and that many of the original occupiers in both camps had departed.

    These were not the issues of violence that are being debated in Oakland, but still sounded like the inability of the GA to handle disagreement.  One example given was from the guy in Portland who talked about the food area.  He said when it began, people who had some experience in the restaurant business were handling it with efficiency and cleanliness.  Then others wanted in and were not into the existing procedures and rules.  His point was that this sort of stuff was taking too much of the GA's time and causing many of the original initiators of the camp to throw their hands up and leave.

    It seems the movement is at a tipping point, one that's to be expected, but one that could also be fatal to the movement.  Every movement is organic in its own way, with an emphasis on the need to adapt to changing circumstances.  It also seems from what I've read that many in the movement do not want it to change, do not want it to adapt---and adapting absolutely means changing to survive.

    The Occupy Movement has been stunning in its growth so far, like a lit match on a dry forest floor.  After a couple of weeks of the media ignoring it, the media exploded with it, in some good ways and bad, but no one can say it didn't get coverage, and plenty of it.  And it did what seemed impossible just months ago, and shifted the national discussion from the deficit to the oligarchy.  Amazing and invaluable.

    But I have noticed in the last weeks that the interest and the talk about it is dying down.  Not just in the media, but at the water cooler.  And here and elsewhere, most of the coverage is about the interaction between police and protesters---which in itself is becoming old hat.

    IMO, this is because the occupy movement has saturated its message of "We are the 99%.  People like it or they don't, but most get it.  Now it's time to grow that message, and imo that means in terms of policy priorities.  Doesn't have to be detailed, but does have to be focused.  That won't happen with a GA that requires 90% agreement.  Occupy, meet the catch 22 of democratic governance.

    I know the movement is against what I'm saying, and in the beginning, I think they were right.  But now, I'm not so sure.  Because the fact is, Occupy must compete with every new news cycle, from Penn State on to the next one and the one after that.  I believe America understands the movement's initial message, whether they like it or not. Now they need to see what else is there, or their attention will wonder.  And a movement that claims "we're the 99%" must find a way to hold the attention of that 99%.

    Been thinking about this in the last week or two, and this thread solidified some of my thoughts.  Thanks for putting up with my long post, all.  And I'm sure plenty will disagree.

    But I really want this thing to become more powerful, not burn itself out. Sustaining the movement will demand changes that will have to be fought for. That, imo, will require an uncomfortable period where solidarity gives way to the battle, and all inclusiveness will take a hit.  That's just the way it is.  Implosion is the other alternative.

    •  escalate, change, something; stagnation = death nt (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      StellaRay
    •  Agreed, it will have to adapt and (0+ / 0-)

      it's unlikely to continue over winter anyway (brutal!). So let's call it a victory and reconnect on next steps using the net. Ultimately, there will have to be a movement, street-oriented faction along with an electoral group that  is outside the major parties but focuses on change there. The current political establishment is really incapable of dealing with the situation.

      •  I made an offhand comment last week (3+ / 0-)

        ...that the various OWS movements around the country should consider "Occupying Valley Forge" over the winter.

        Not only would such an act allow time to consider the next steps when spring arrives, but the simple optics and symbolism of wintering over in Valley Forge (ala George Washington's troops) might be powerful.

        Again, it was an offhand comment, and occupying a national park probably wouldn't stand up to legal scrutiny, but it was an interesting thought for all OWS campers, especially in the Northeast / mid-Atlantic U.S.

        We're resigned to our collective fate because we've been conditioned and brainwashed to believe that this is as good as it gets. It's not.

        by Richard Cranium on Sun Nov 13, 2011 at 08:56:45 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Strategic thinking like this though, about (0+ / 0-)

          communicating, and framing, and symbolism is VERY important. The people MoT is writing about here are capable of damaging the perception of the entire movement for the 99% allies we MUST have to win.

          Re Valley Forge, is there a Town by that name nearby that might suffice? Maybe even need a tourism boost that a well-organized and savvy encampment might provide?

          Okay, the Government says you MUST abort your child. NOW do you get it?

          by Catskill Julie on Sun Nov 13, 2011 at 12:01:13 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Valley Forge, Pa. - about 30 min outside Philly (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Catskill Julie

            Lots of locations in the area outside of the immediate nat'l park that could used for staging.

            We're resigned to our collective fate because we've been conditioned and brainwashed to believe that this is as good as it gets. It's not.

            by Richard Cranium on Sun Nov 13, 2011 at 12:43:17 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  An idea worth pursuing. Because, if I were a (0+ / 0-)

              teepartyer type I would run with it and they have buckets of corporate money to pull it off.

              Perhaps of our occupy marines etc. would think it a fitting demonstration. And maybe some Revolutionary War re-enactors would be interested in lending pictorial authenticity for the cameras too.

              Okay, the Government says you MUST abort your child. NOW do you get it?

              by Catskill Julie on Sun Nov 13, 2011 at 12:55:10 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

  •  They are Easy to Spot (6+ / 0-)

    Look at the videos, they all dress similarly, all are young clean cut short haired white males wearing clean newish black clothes/shoes; they mostly look like they came straight out of the police academy. Many of them carry black flags on stout dowels that double as weapons.

    They must be photographed by anyone close by before the black bandanas come up so they can be personally outed if they want to go on a vandalism spree within the context of an occupy protest with a consensus that forbids violence/property destruction.  I don't care if these stupid fucks wind up in police hands, they are far more dangerous to the movement than even the regular police. They are the enemy whether they are LE infiltrators (which some surely must be, watch the Toronto G-20 videos of them obviously in league with the police), paid provocateurs, trying to defeat the movement from within for personal or political reasons or just dangerous clueless fuck ups.

    Let's whenever possible photograph them and post up the photos for ID if they jeopardize the movement, just as we would a rogue cop like Bologna. We ask the authorities to hold their side personally accountable for bad behavior and rightfully so, we must hold our own side to the same standard or be hypocrites.  I'll bet if we can positively ID them, they'll turn out to contain a significant proportion of LE and political enemies trying to deliberately discredit and weaken the movement.

    Whatever they are, fuck these clowns.

    Advisors for President-Elect Barack Obama feared the new administration would face a coup if it prosecuted Bush-era war crimes, according to a new report out this morning.

    by Kurt Sperry on Sat Nov 12, 2011 at 09:09:20 PM PST

  •  When people behave like ... (34+ / 0-)

    ...agents provocateurs, they ARE agents provocateurs. The only difference is that "Pinkertons" and their like get paid to do this shit. The reality is that those in the "black bloc" who behaved this way might as well be sitting in the board rooms of the 1% helping them screw the rest of us. Because their actions help give an already unsympathetic media a news hook on which to hang their anti-Occupy narrative.

    If, by their actions, they give an edge to "the Man," they're carrying water for the man, no matter what their rhetoric says, no matter how romantic they may think they are with ninja apparel and bandannas. Instead of the focus being on the violence that the banksters and their enforcers commit every day across America, the story becomes about the unruly protesters, even though only a handful behave the way these did. If Occupy is a revolution, the vandals are its counter-revolutionaries.

    The Occupy movement can stand up to them — as so many in this video did. It can isolate them, corral them, make them persona non grata at protests. If it doesn't, it will ultimately see much of its good work diluted or worse. One step, and, to be sure, it's risky in more ways than one, is to unmask — literally —  every single black bloc-ker who commits vandalism. If it is not curtailed, this small minority will become what the Occupy movement is remembered for.

    I stand with and applaud those, like Jesse and those in the video, who condemned, argued with and tried to prevent the black bloc-kers from committing their stupid, pro-1% acts.  

    The surest way to predict the future is to invent it. — Stephen Post. [Me at Twitter.]

    by Meteor Blades on Sat Nov 12, 2011 at 09:49:04 PM PST

  •  Probably Koch funded Anarchists (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TheLawnRanger, pot, Betty Pinson, Johnny Q

    nt

    We are all atheists about most of the gods that societies have ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further. ~Richard Dawkins

    by Therapy on Sat Nov 12, 2011 at 09:50:52 PM PST

  •  They wear masks because they can't stand by (