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Occupy London at the US embassy yesterday (streetspectre/yfrog)
Public Policy Polling. 11/10-13. American voters. MoE ±3.5%. (10/7-10 results)
Q. Do you support or oppose the goals of the Occupy Wall Street movement?

Support: 33 (35)
Oppose: 45 (36)
Not sure: 22 (29)

Q. Do you have a higher opinion of the Occupy Wall Street movement or the Tea Party movement?

Occupy Wall Street: 37 (40)
Tea Party: 43 (37)
Not sure: 20 (23)

These are rough numbers for Occupy Wall Street. The particularly painful part is falling behind the tea party.

If there is any encouraging news from this, it's that the decline in Occupy Wall Street's image is probably more connected to the increasingly negative coverage of the clashes between protesters and police than it is to declining support for movement's message. Pollster Tom Jensen writes:

I don't think the bad poll numbers for Occupy Wall Street reflect Americans being unconcerned with wealth inequality.  Polling we did in some key swing states earlier this year found overwhelming support for raising taxes on people who make over $150,000 a year. In late September we found that 73% of voters supported the 'Buffett rule' with only 16% opposed.  And in October we found that Senators resistant to raising taxes on those who make more than a million dollars a year could pay a price at the polls. I don't think any of that has changed- what the downturn in Occupy Wall Street's image suggests is that voters are seeing the movement as more about the 'Occupy' than the 'Wall Street.'  The controversy over the protests is starting to drown out the actual message.

Clashes with police have fueled coverage of Occupy Wall Street since late September, but such a tactic was always playing with fire. Right now, it doesn't seem to be working as well as it once did.

Still, the image of the movement is likely recoverable, given that its message remains popular. Also, even if its own image is taking a hit, Occupy Wall Street continues to be successful simply because it has greatly increased media mentions of things like income inequality. Ultimately, it is the message that matters.

Originally posted to Chris Bowers on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 09:10 AM PST.

Also republished by Daily Kos.

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Comment Preferences

    •  this is coming from the police eviction frames (5+ / 0-)

      I am off my metas! Präsidentenelf-maßschach; Warning-Some Snark Above"Nous sommes un groupuscule" (-9.50; -7.03)

      by annieli on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 09:22:35 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Once the police started herding the homeless (31+ / 0-)

        drug addicts, prostitutes, and other crazies towards the camps, there was inevitably going to be overdoses, crime, and a death or two.

        Unfortunately OWS can't turn its back on the ills of society, no matter how damaging to its PR, so these things are going to happen.

        However, I'd recommend just keeping it up and keeping at it.

        •  Yes to keeping at it but no to just assuming (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          v2aggie2, Shockwave, auapplemac

          these things are going to happen.  If this movement is going to be taken seriously then it needs a way to deal with those problems effectively.  If the group is taking the position (as they should) that they can't turn their backs then they have to take ownership of the problem as well.  Otherwise the damage is done.  And they can't do any good to anyone.

          •  No they dont. (14+ / 0-)

            It isn't OWS's job to solve the homeless problem or drug abuse issues.

            Seems they are being taken pretty seriously because they are keeping their focus on the top 1%.

            •  But it is OWS's job to solve the problem of how (8+ / 0-)

              having those people directed to their camps affects the perceptions of the movement, the safety of the communitiy and the ability of the Occupiers to continue their good work.

              •  Try to recruit them. (6+ / 0-)

                If they become disruptive, I'd turn em over to the cops and make a big hoopla about the cooperation.

                •  Hearded to the camps? (4+ / 0-)

                  I'm not sure that the negative elements in our society and on the streets are actually being "hearded" into the OWS camps.  These camps offer an environment that the homeless and criminal element can find security in.  It's not what the OWS movement wants and they most certainly need to be vigilant in keeping these elements out.  It's not what this movement is about.  It's not a "homeless shelter" or "protection zone".  That just takes away from our message.

                  - If you don't like gay marriage, blame straight people. They're the ones who keep having gay babies.

                  by r2did2 on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 10:11:08 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  There have been reports though (0+ / 0-)

                    that police were directing those elements to OWS -- I can't remember where I read that, so just take it as an anecdote.

                    But yes, many Occupations, specifically ones that are full-time, have taken it upon themselves to set up kitchens to feed anyone who is hungry.  Another anecdote -- one homeless addict who found his way to a camp has been clean for weeks as he helps run the kitchen.

                    Having "that" element in the camp wreaks havoc on the messaging, but it also underscores the issues being confronted.  Ultimately, Occupations do need to take responsibility for making sure the camps are safe, but I don't agree that it means excluding people by virtue of their class or status.

                  •  Because of how OWS has choosen... (0+ / 0-)

                    ...to operate, it's difficult for them to keep "these" elements out (for various definitions of "out").

                    Since OWS has chosen to occupy public spaces without getting a permit or the like for exclusive use, they can't exclude "these elements" (a.k.a. "people") from being cheek to jowl with OWS since, just like everyone else in the US, all parties have equal claim to the space.

                    Perhaps OWS could establish some sort of "certified member" status and identify "these" people somehow (drug tests? criminal background checks? requiring personal references from N certified members in good standing? daily votes on who to keep and who to dump? questioning under penalty of perjury about groups applicants have previously been members of?) and exclude them from from membership. However, I can't imagine any such criteria and process that wouldn't be cumbersome and costly to administer and eliminate a lot of potential participants as well as creating yet more factions and in-fighting.

                    Once one had the notion of "certified members", community services (probably most importantly, food from the community kitchen) could be limited to OWS members thereby eliminating some of the motivation for "these" people to stay in the area. However, since OWS can't preclude "these" people (who are clearly in the 99% - many probably in the "other" 1% actually) from the space, all they can do is refuse to share. "These" people can then bring in the press (who, of course, have the right to be there) to show this "selfish, elitist, arrogant, and hypocritical" behavior by the main OWS movement being unwilling to help the bottom 1%. This would be very damaging to the public perception of the movement. Thus, OWS pretty much has to include anyone who they can't convince the police to arrest for some specific criminal act. Rock, meet hard place.

                    But this was all obvious to anyone shortly after the occupations started and I'm sure the smarter and more influential people involved in the movement realized all this long ago.

                •  Yes there just has to be some ownership of the (6+ / 0-)

                  problem one way or the other.  Same with the black bloc tactics.  It's just immature to think you can create a situation that will attract these problems, take the position that you can't fix them and then expect not be be negatively affected.

            •  if you take them in. (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              714day, auapplemac, ozoozol

              you take responsibility for it. In any case the media will make you take credit for everything that happens in these camps except maybe some police action... Everything else including sex, rape, drugs, homelessness, black bloc; the media is going to make occupy own it all.

              Standing up for men and their interests does not constitute misogyny. www.youtube.com/manwomanmyth

              by SetaSan on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 10:23:27 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

        •  I may get blasted for this, but (7+ / 0-)

          whether they herded them or not, I can tell you from my first hand perception that having the homeless, who oftentimes have addiction or mental illness problems, in the occupy movement has not helped it.

          I do not believe that imposing some rules of acceptable conduct by encamped occupy members on occupy members is unreasonable.

          Ordinary political process is dead. The Supreme Court killed it. In Chambers. With a gavel.

          by Publius2008 on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 10:20:17 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Perhaps the OWS movement (0+ / 0-)

            should not be occupying places where these folks are know to be.

            "The bottom line is, we've got to wake up. We can't allow our disappointment in Obama to lull us into allowing a truly dangerous strain of conservative philosophy to gain any more traction than it already has." --ObamOcala 4/5/11

            by smoothnmellow on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 10:23:43 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  #OWS NYC (6+ / 0-)

            had very strict rules fro those at the camp which included no alcohol or drugs. We need to be careful with what we read in the MSM.  For example, one of the problems #OWS NYC had was that police were directing people with serious mental or addiction problems to Zuccotti Park.  #OWS NYC had their own security force that operated 24 hours a day to ensure compliance with camp rules.  But when they asked the police for help with some disturbing individuals with serious addiction or mental problems, the police often refused. These incidents were reported on a number of occasions by the morning Live Stream crew.

            The United States is not just losing its capacity to do great things. It's losing its soul.--Bob Herbert. gulfgal98's corollary- We are fighting back to save our soul. Thank you, #OWS for empowering us all.

            by gulfgal98 on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 10:57:04 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Curious... (0+ / 0-)

              ...how was "compliance enforced"?

              Z park is of course somewhat unique due to its previously ambiguous/missing rules and the public/private status. However it seems the OWS position about that park was that there were no specific rules for the park and therefore they were not violating those (non-existent) rules.

              OWS certainly has no rights to impose their rules on others in the park (again, OWS has no more right to a square inch of that park than a random homeless person does).

              If, in fact, there are people violating minor laws (drug use, public drinking/drunkenness) that police often place a lower priority on, OWS could call the police in and may have some rights to make citizen's arrests while waiting for the police to take custody (I have no idea what the laws in NY are about citizen's arrests).

              However, I could understand why police would try to avoid involving themselves in such operations if they can. The police would have to assemble substantial force to safely take offenders into custody due to the mass of people and the risk of unrest. Since the police likely didn't observe the behavior, the prosecution of the suspects would rely on witnesses who may not be willing to potentially spend many hours of their life in depositions and trials making the arrest a waste of time. Likely police would need to cordon off an area in the camp where the crime occurred and/or the suspect was situated both for their safety and to gather evidence (possibly including searching around surrounding campsites if the suspect may have "ditched" the drugs). However, in many OWS situations, police actions have met with OWS members refusing to comply with lawful orders -- which could cause rapid escalation of the situation if the lawful orders were essential to investigation of the crime reported by OWS members.

              As well, in the process of arresting someone that a "OWS wanabe COP" had identified as drinking on public property w/o necessary permits, police may notice other violations around them. Perhaps they would notice violations of city ordinances banning open flames and, due to their proximity to the open flames during the arrest/investigation, would have little choice but to enforce the open flame law as well. If nothing else they may have little choice but to do so for liability and political reasons. It's sometimes untenable for police to ignore something they were obviously aware if it could later result in an adjacent tent catching on fire and maiming or killing an "innocent" bystander.

              •  Under NY law (0+ / 0-)

                a person cannot be arrested for an offense (as opposed to a crime) unless the police officer witnesses it himself/herself.

                Drinking in public is an offense, not a crime.

                Drug use, of course is a crime (technically possession rather than use.  And mere possession of marijuana in not a crime in NY, but I digress).  But I have never once heard of someone arrested for drug possession where it wasn't someone in something of authority (if not a police officer, then a parole or probation officer, or security guard, or maybe even a school employee) who witnessed the defendant in possession.

                The best pizza comes from New York.

                by JakeC on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 02:25:43 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

          •  ya don't get it.. (4+ / 0-)

            The homeless are at the very bottom of our 99%
            Ya think the 1% have no alcoholics? Ya think the 1% have no drug addicts? Ya think they don't share the same spectrum of brain chemical disorders as the homeless?

            The difference is they have access to treatment. They drink expensive brandy and whisky instead of McCormick Vodka. Hell, they never have to drive if they don't want to..
            They can afford the best cocaine and meth and smack..
            Like Michael Jackson they can afford someone to administer it.(although that did not work out too well for Jackson.

            These people would not be homeless where there disorders and addictions are highly visible.  if they had access to proper treatment... and if those who share all this with the homeless were not born into a rich family, they would be on the street.

            If we cannot fight for the homeless than WTF is occupy all about?

            "One way or another, one way or another, one way or another, this darkness got to give."

        •  the body count has been disturbing (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Shockwave, Bailey2001

          over the span of just a few days, the perception went from "police are cracking skulls" to "those kids are killing each other".
          The apparent suicide of a mentally unstable vet at Occupy Burlington shut the camp down immediately. It's a crime scene. It was big news. And of course it dovetailed with reports of deaths at camps around the country, fueling the perception that these camps are death traps/riddled with criminals/unsafe.
          That kind of thing, repeated all over the country in just the span of a few days, drove quite a few people into the "oppose" category, imo.

          Class war has consequences, and we are living them.

          by kamarvt on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 10:25:04 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  write letters and op-eds in your community. You (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Evolutionary

          personally may have more influence than MSM if you can be persuasive and separate the goals from the clashes. It would seem that there will be setbacks and like brooklynbadboy says, persevere.

        •  In Los Angeles the most visible champion of (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          auapplemac

          the homeless, Ted Hayes, stands in opposition to Occupy. He has been on local media stations expressing outrage that the homeless are cast off and must sleep on the streets (skid row) only a few blocks away from kids who are treated like royalty in summer camp.
          There is much counterproductive narrative getting airtime.

          •  But Hayes has his own agenda. Always has. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Evolutionary

            And you too should be careful of the narrative you are receiving as well. Are you at Occupy L.A.? Have you seen the kitchen there? How many meals a day are being prepared and fed to those very homeless people Ted Hayes is advocating for? Despite the repeated and increasing attempts by the city to shut it down by more and more food inspections to offsite kitchens that are providing food for the site. It persists. In fact, Ted Hayes called the Occupiers "well meaning, blessed young people" and "welcoming these young peoples to our movement, that is to the plight and struggle of the homeless" on his own blog. Look, by my read he is pissed that Occupy L.A. is getting so much ink when he has been advocating for the homeless for decades (Justiceville, Dustbowl Hilton in 1984, etc.). Would it surprise you to know that Ted Hayes supports SB 1070 in Arizona and vigorously defended it? Perhaps that had something to do with people being a wee bit pissed off at him when he addressed Occupy L.A. and his pushback now.

            post hoc, ergo propter hoc

            by RvgAqs on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 11:28:53 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Haven't been there lately because of constraints. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              RvgAqs

              I think you misunderstood my comment as being an apologia for Hayes. It was not. I am not at all surprised by your illustration of Mr. Hayes limitations of thought and bigotry, it is not the only one.
              It was simply a statement of fact and those are what we must contend with.
              I also do not think the sky is falling because poll numbers are not wildly lustrous at the moment.
              I don't think that Occupy is a puff of smoke that's going to blow away.

        •  They can however show some leadership and get (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          auapplemac

          rid of the trouble makers.

          If they cannot elect some leadership to represent  the movement it is not movement, and is aimless.

          •  I know people who support the fight against (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Caipirinha, roadbear

            inequity and initially supported OW, but have now changed that support OW

            Why? Not because of the police or the bad incidents, but because the group seems aimless. That that are just there to be there - to be part of the new trendy thing to do.

            They don't see the movement going anywhere to achieve their goals and they also are concerned about the cost to the municipalities that are already strapped for funds.

            Optics are important. If they want to help the homeless, work at a soup kitchen or set one up in another location. Do not do things that attract those that can disrupt the march forward.

            Keep your eye on the prize.

            By reaching their goal, they will help the homeless and the other 99ers.

            Progressives will win when we convince a majority that they, too, are Progressive.

            by auapplemac on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 12:51:41 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  Frames slavishly repeated by media. PUSH BACK (7+ / 0-)

        Okay, the Government says you MUST abort your child. NOW do you get it?

        by Catskill Julie on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 10:16:28 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  A plurality never becomes a majority (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Zornorph

      if it can't win the undecideds.

      Absent, I suppose, getting rid of the undecideds or otherwise taking them otherwise out of the equation, I guess.

      Full Disclosure: I am an unpaid shill for every paranoid delusion that lurks under your bed - but more than willing to cash any checks sent my way

      by zonk on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 09:40:56 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Fortunately, OWS really isn't... (4+ / 0-)

        ...bound by election cycles.

        The conditions and circumstances which together made OWS and the kindred Occupations possible aren't going to go away just because they are "unpopular" at the moment.

        Occupy Wall Street AND K Street!!!!

        by Egalitare on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 10:27:29 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I find that, frankly, more frightening than (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          SwedishJewfish, doroma, auapplemac

          comforting...

          I'm fine with the idea of 2012 not being any sort of promised land -- the next election on the calendar never is -- but if popularity, and by proxy, election cycles don't matter... then what?

          I mean, history is replete with 'revolutions'... and executing the czar is always the easy part.  What happens to those who are neither the czar nor his palace guard, but just aren't interested or perhaps even moderately hostile?

          At the end of the day, it's awfully easy -- in fact, historically, almost automatic -- for such movements to devolve from noble philosophies into blood-stained reprisals and counter-reprisals over whether one's pants are of the proper length and fashion.

          Full Disclosure: I am an unpaid shill for every paranoid delusion that lurks under your bed - but more than willing to cash any checks sent my way

          by zonk on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 10:52:42 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  PROPAGNDA-sickening (0+ / 0-)

      Conditions just ‘offal’
      By REBECCA ROSENBERG and DAN MANGAN

      Posted: 2:22 AM, November 16, 2011

      City sanitation workers yesterday were forced to pick through a filthy pile of property seized from Zuccotti Park including dirty hypodermic needles, moldy food and glass-littered, broken gadgets.

      “I pick up garbage [for a living], and these were some of the worst smells I’ve ever experienced,’’ one worker grumbled to The Post.

      About 150 trashmen stuffed the massive pile of soiled tents, old bikes and spoiling food into dump trucks — 26 loads in all — and hauled it to a West 57th Street Sanitation facility so that workers could begin sorting the personal goods from garbage.

      Occupy Wall Street protesters with proper ID can go to the facility this morning to get back their property.

      As 10 unlucky Sanitation workers sorted the trash from reclaimable goods, they steered clear of a sealed pickle bucket which they suspected was filled with human waste.

      Among the trash were clothes, suitcases, papers, plywood, books, laptop computers, smeared peanut-butter jars, cables, wire and shoes.

      Many items were damaged, such as a bent laptop and two busted guitars.

      Two protesters yesterday got to reclaim their stuff, but Sanitation workers soon cut off access because there was so much broken glass mixed in with the items.

      http://coonsey.wordpress.com/

      by coonsey on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 04:16:40 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  They fight us with polls as well as batons (7+ / 0-)

    Money can buy both the talking heads and the numbers that they spout.

    If cats could blog, they wouldn't

    by crystal eyes on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 09:15:53 AM PST

    •  Are you suggesting that (11+ / 0-)

      the poll numbers are incorrect and falsified?

    •  conspiracy theories are so much easier than (7+ / 0-)

      reflection and critical assessment, aren't they?

      Perhaps a better question is WHY are poll numbers dropping and what can be done to improve this, rather than

      what evil puppeteer is manipulating the marionette strings of an otherwise generally reliable pollster?

      •  Olbermann (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        bryduck, Timothy J, Evolutionary

        has it right in his latest comment, that the cops moving in will do more to raise awareness of the issue than anything else.

        What he misses is that he's aware of things that most people aren't, because most people get their news from biased sources.

        Smartest things Bloomberg did were the media blackout, and going in at night.  I think he probably learned from previous protests (Civil Rights, Vietnam) that the imagery is the message.  Get rid of the imagery, and you can control the message.

        You don't have to directly manipulate poll numbers when you can directly manipulate people.

        --

        Republicans chap my ass

        Me

        by Marc in KS on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 10:23:20 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Actually, I think this poll establishes (4+ / 0-)

          that the cops moving in is doing quite a bit more than raising awareness of the issues..it's driving down public approval of the movment.

          Keep on protesting, yes! But keep it legal. There are plenty of opportunities to do just that.

          •  My friends here (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            savvyspy

            in flyover country look at the protests and see young hipsters, for the most part, and perceive them as being spoiled and looking for a handout, and they just say "get a job!"  (Never mind that there's like 1 job for every 7 unemployed people....)

            It would be interesting to look deeper into that poll's demographics.  If this sample had a disproportionate number of people with jobs in it, I can see why it might show a decrease in support for the OWS movement.

            --

            Republicans chap my ass

            Me

            by Marc in KS on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 10:37:57 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Did they poll a different cross section (5+ / 0-)

              of America previously, when support for OWS was higher? I don't think so.

              Civil disobedience should be targeted toward specific laws that are unjust. Disobeying existing ordinances that govern use of public spaces isn't targeting the real issue of income inequality. It's just a distraction, and a distraction that is costing the movement in public approval.

              Stage a peaceful, legal weekend march in every one of these cities every week  instead of trying to maintain a tent camp and watch how the movement grows instead of shrinks.

            •  Our Country's middle class is in a downward (0+ / 0-)

              spiral.  Give it time.  The People out in the streets are those that experienced enough pain to be outraged.  Because actual change is not taking place, more and more people will be joining the crowd.  People are confused and upset by everything that's happening.  It's perfectly natural to fear change on a large scale.  Even among those that would agree with all OWS has to say - there are many, many people who haven't felt the pain yet.  They will.  We see our elected 'representatives' creating even more pain in Congress and the "super committee", but this pain hasn't actually physically reached the populace yet.  When it does, and it will, those polls will change.

              #OccupyOMC - "We have a permit, its called The Constitution".

              by Evolutionary on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 11:52:07 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I love your idealism, but history in this country (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Evolutionary

                does not necessarily support it.

                When the Bonus Marchers were trampled on, where was the public? When Hoovervilles were destroyed, where was the public?

                They didn't get out in the streets to support these groups.

                When the Viet Nam Protesters were pushed back, where was the public? In this case, they voted in Nixon, not the anti war candidate.

                When OW becomes a real organization (which seems doubtful since it seems to be anti organization), then it may have some power - yes, Political power!

                In this country you don't change anything without voting on it...you do it by changing the laws.

                Martin Luther King knew that.

                Progressives will win when we convince a majority that they, too, are Progressive.

                by auapplemac on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 01:15:56 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  All good points. If you go a little further back (0+ / 0-)

                  in history, you can also see that citizens of any civilization that get stomped on hard enough - will always rise up against those doing the stomping.  Some uprisings are successful, others are not.  I think that the situation in America at this moment is similar to the 'Gilded Age', and it took a lot for Americans to win that battle (and years of work).  If things continue the way they are going right now, the situation will be worse than the Gilded Age.  Income disparity, and wealth disparity are in fact, higher now than they were before and during the Great Depression.
                  I feel (just me) like things are so bad, for so many, that this is different somehow.  All the diaries, comments, and even arguments we have here won't stop an uprising if there is enough pain.  More pain is on the way.  

                  #OccupyOMC - "We have a permit, its called The Constitution".

                  by Evolutionary on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 01:25:15 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

          •  I was just arguing on Facebook (0+ / 0-)

            (yes, waste of time) with someone who likely represents many others.

            There is this assumption, rife with unearned privilege, that allows many people in this country to believe that police only attack when people have done something wrong.

            The police attacked.

            Therefore, Occupy must have done something wrong.

            Therefore, we cannot support Occupy.

        •  'Get rid of the imagery, and you can control the (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Evolutionary

          message.'

          Exactly.

          "The bottom line is, we've got to wake up. We can't allow our disappointment in Obama to lull us into allowing a truly dangerous strain of conservative philosophy to gain any more traction than it already has." --ObamOcala 4/5/11

          by smoothnmellow on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 10:37:01 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  This is sad but maybe not surprising. (11+ / 0-)

    There has been a deliberate attempt by the right to discredit the movement.  Unfortunately some groups and the lack of clear goals have played into that strategy in my opinion.

    Knowing that people agree with the premise should help in getting support once OWS starts moving toward goals that more people can understand.  The normal growing pains of figuring out how to govern have slowed things down in some places and created situations the right and the MSM can take advantage of.  But that doesn't mean it's over for Occupy at all.  It just means we need more focus and a way to use all of the goodwill that has been created.

    •  OWS still has lots of potential (16+ / 0-)

      as a movement, but it is not going to happen by way of camps. Camps have run their course and will soon be a nothing but the history of the movement.

      For OWS to truly be an effective agent of change something else needs to emerge. And when it does it will leave behind much of the negative baggage that has been accumulated. Focused and effective energy will improve the polling numbers.

      •  Since the last poll, the right has focused on (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        MrJersey, Evolutionary

        discrediting the movement.

        C.f. the current Karl Rove attack ads on Elizabeth Warren, whose basic mechanism has been to tie her to cherry-picked isolated incidents of unsavory behavior at Occupy events.  Discredit two birds with one stone.

        I think that also helps explain why support hasn't dropped, but opposition has risen: undecideds who were ambivalent about the protests before, or maybe predisposed to view them unfavorably but hadn't given it much thought, have now been provided with something to dislike about them.

        Note: I'm at Trilogy Interactive, where I work for various Democratic campaigns.

        by I voted for Kodos on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 10:32:56 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Polls go up and down (5+ / 0-)

        But the struggle for economic and social justice continues. The American Revolution once had only 33% support. Guess they should have just given up at that point and gone home. Valley Forge was a dirty unsanitary place full of unwashed soldiers. FX Nuz would laugh and tell them all to  take a bath and get a real job.

        If there's a reason for the rich to rule, please Lord, tell us why. -Battle of Jericol, Coal Mining Woman

        by JayRaye on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 10:33:56 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Occupy is an idea that will not disappear. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Evolutionary

        I think one of it's advantages is that it's a movable one.  Even so, the holding of turf is important, even if it's different turf on a regular basis. And repeated return to germination points.

      •  you are right. OWS need leaders, goals, tactics, (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        auapplemac
    •  You can't govern without leaders (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Caipirinha, auapplemac, roadbear

      the GA isn't a leader. There's no one there to set the message. Everyone knows that this country is screwed up. It's somehow off balance. Whether anyone wants to admit it... the tea party played on that too. While occupy and teahadists differ on what the problem is and thus the solution I'm sure you would find unanimous consensus that this country is off track between the groups.

      We seriously need to look at Occupy as a tactic. It's a terrible one at this point

      1. it invites police action
      2. it invites extreme personalities
      3. time increases the chances it will discredit itself
      4. carnival atmosphere isn't taken seriously
      5. lack of leadership
      6. only has a general idea. No real focus or objective. You couldn't write a bill based on these protests.
      7. Despite their disavowing of democrats and republicans  anything bad that happens WILL come back on to the democratic party.

      Standing up for men and their interests does not constitute misogyny. www.youtube.com/manwomanmyth

      by SetaSan on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 10:33:34 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  We can't leave the streets (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Words In Action

        That's not to say that there is no work to do off the streets (and there is work being done there), but remaining literally visible is essential. IMO.

        These things, or things similar to this, have taken DECADES of public civil disobedience to accomplish.

        •  True, and it's not as if non-occupying (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          SwedishJewfish

          has gotten us anywhere in decades...

          I with you. The statement that a PROTEST THAT NEVER GOES AWAY and ONLY GROWS makes cannot be underestimated.

          By the same token, we obviously need to internalize and respond effectively to these poll numbers. I believe a little more goal-oriented behavior would help. No one can deny that there are serious people involved, but the appearance of a lack of seriousness can frequently be had, whether correct or not. For example, at the meetings I've attended, many, many of the rules of good meeting behavior are ignored. People arriving late, the meeting starting late, lack of a pre-established agenda, lack of preparation by the participants, lack of attention to priorities, rambling, inconsistently controlled crosstalk, lack of attention to seeing discussions lead to actions, lack of published minutes... I'm sure that there's wide variation on the points across GA's, but, as I said, the three I've been to more than once have suffered from several of these problems in any given meeting.

          •  Absolutely. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Words In Action

            Out here in the middle of no where, we're gradually shifting focus to looking for examples of where the current system is failing, and doing what we can to draw attention to it on this micro level.

            As in other places, we're starting to provide food to those who need it.  We're looking into whether we can work with Habitat for Humanity.  Having a canned food drive.

            I'd love for us to do what some other Occupations have done, with "occupying" the front lawn of people whose houses are about to be foreclosed upon, etc.

            In addition to maintaining a "hey, we're still here" presence.  We're so small that we haven't had the behavioral or procedural issues that you might find in other, larger groups, though we are quite informal most of the time.

          •  occurping isn't getting us anywhere either (0+ / 0-)

            except for a huge number of liberals with arrests on their records and now will never find a good job in the private sector ever again.

            Standing up for men and their interests does not constitute misogyny. www.youtube.com/manwomanmyth

            by SetaSan on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 09:41:10 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

    •  I was a little concerned about those who (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Evolutionary

      expressed elation and euphoria at the seminal stage of Occupy.
      The push against the entrenched machine is long and difficult. Since the notion (I believe) is to reshape the crooked clockworks so that it is genuinely responsible and accountable to the people, there is no waving of magic wands. This will take time; and persistence will win. It took a long time for special moneyed interests to dig in to their battlements. In the last 30 years particularly, zealous effort has been applied to that end. It will take alot longer than 2 months to turn it on it's ear.
      I'm not worried about the temporary slumps that are inevitable.

      •  True, but meanwhile the planet is (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        714day, SwedishJewfish

        burning up, and we'll need to deal with money in government and government representing the 99% before we can even begin to address global warming. If we plan to replace the government before we make a serious effort to address global warming, then we sure as hell are working on the wrong timetable for revolution...

        •  I have been educated by a family member (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Words In Action

          who convinced me awhile back that climate change is an emergency. Hopefully, we have not already passed the tipping point and even if we have, there is no reason to avoid as much amelioration as possible for the survival of the many.
          I am genuinely infuriated from time to time that there has been virtually no massive governmental effort to even educate the populace about this since the Carter administration. It is more than a stunning misstep, to me personally, it's unbelievable.
          This is one of the most critical issues to be addressed by the Occupy protesters.
          I certainly hope this is a point which will emerge ASAP from the movement along with whatever paradigm shift in public information can be managed since naysayers still abound.

    •  Yes. Maybe this will stimulate some (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      SwedishJewfish

      introspection. I think you are onto something with the focus thing. The Occupies I've witnessed and/or participated in have no meaningful strategic planning or priority setting or resource allocation functions. I haven't let it deter me from participating, but I wonder when it will catch up with us, if it hasn't already.

      The thinking that we have all the time in the world seems overly optimistic and/or setting the bar way too low. Yes, the long-term development of horizontalism at large scales will take a long time. But direct actions such as the bank transfer program needn't. And there's no reason for not beginning to trot out specific demands to the current authority infrastructure, though I would suggest they be developed with relevant experts who probably have already considered solutions. It's not as if by doing so we are conceding to the authoritarian rule; we would simply be working on short-term, achievable goals while continue to construct entirely separate, superceding arrangements.

    •  Opposing the status quo (0+ / 0-)

      is always unpopular until there is change.

      LGBT rights.  Women's rights.  Civil rights.  Workers rights.  Etc, etc, etc.  All at one point were unpopular until they weren't.

  •  It's the violence and the rioting (15+ / 0-)

    that are turning people away.

    Need to get back to the peaceful protests. Away from conflicts with polcie.

  •  This is why it's important (11+ / 0-)

    to maintain nonviolent discipline as best as you can even and especially given the already apparent media bias.

    The MSM liked covering the tea party for reasons that I don't even want to get into.

    Thing is, if Bloomberg pisses off the media a little too much, the media will begin to turn back in OWS's favor.

    Stay on point as far as the message but some media savvy is now needed. perception is important.

  •  The Message Needs ot Become The Message (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Caipirinha, Adam B

    It would be interesting if the follow-up question were "What does the OWS movement stand for?" and see what diversity of opinion they got.

    •  Perhaps an even more interesting question... (4+ / 0-)

      would be:  "Does the militarized police handling of OWS worry you?".

      OWS has brought out into the open a very ugly aspect of American life which challenges the comfortable self-image of many (most?) Americans.  All of us are thus put in the position of either supporting OWS and recognizing some ugly (and very scarry realities), or of withdrawing support and thus not having to face these very ugly (and very scarry) realities.

      Lots of people will choose the latter.  And hope it just doesn't impact their lives overly much.

      •  I'm Not Sure That's Actually True (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Bailey2001

        In order to assert that, you'd need a majority of people to know what OWS actually stands for.  You're right of course that when faced with a difficult decision the "easy" choice is tempting, but I'm not sure most people even know what their choices are.

    •  That's the brilliance of leaving it vague.... (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      badger, Evolutionary, Timothy J

      and not having specific demands/goals. People can graft onto it their own particular gripe or concern and it's all good. Keep it open and let everyone decide what it means for themselves.

  •  Inevitable (16+ / 0-)

    given the confrontations channeled through the One Percent media. For a while the confrontations helped, giving the movement buzz, but now that it's established it can--and is--looking beyond occupation. The key is to ensure that that the issues of economic justice remain front and center, so that the right doesn't succeed in turning this into a cultural war issue. Anyway, the good people are on the case.

    They said they were already trying to broaden their influence, for instance by deepening their involvement in community groups and spearheading more of what they described as direct actions, like withdrawing money from banks, and were considering supporting like-minded political candidates.

    Still, some acknowledged that the crackdowns by the authorities in New York and other cities might ultimately benefit the movement, which may have become too fixated on retaining the territorial footholds, they said.

    “We poured a tremendous amount of resources into defending a park that was nearly symbolic,” said Han Shan, an Occupy Wall Street activist in New York. “I think the movement has shown it transcends geography.”

    Even before the police descended on Zuccotti Park overnight, some early proponents of Occupy Wall Street had begun suggesting that it was time to move on.

    On Monday, Adbusters, the Canadian anti-corporate magazine that conceived of the movement, indicated that the protesters should “declare victory” and head indoors to strategize.

    Marina Sitrin, a postdoctoral fellow at the City University of New York who is involved in the movement, said its influence would continue to ripple out. People are already assembling to address local issues in Harlem and Brooklyn, she said. “There’s so much more than Zuccotti Park,” she said.  

    •  There is an action in Pasadena, CA, tomorrow (3+ / 0-)

      calling on the 99% to stand up for the local Firefighters whose budget cuts are phenomenal because of the refusal by state pols (GOP, of course) to allow Brown's proposed budget to go before the people for a vote. The GOP therefor blocked the continuation of taxes we thought were to continue and refused to allow elevated taxes on the 1%. The right wing move not only showed disdain for the citizens with the patriarchal notion that they "knew better" than the voter, it completely marginalized the voice of constituents.
      And vital services are reduced and underfunded.
      This sort of action directly connected to what we've lost and what we will (maybe a few burning buildings?) can definitely move the narrative in the right direction.

  •  Attention span is a problem. This movement has (18+ / 0-)

    arisen to tackle some long-intractable, deeply rooted issues of corruption in our democracy. We're pushing for a national conversation about whether we need some very profound changes, as in possible constitutional amendments.

    People are wary of change, even if they know the current situation is bad and unsustainable. So, it will take a long time to get people on board for what they think is a scary conversation, much less working out the details of exactly what we want to do.

    Yet, everyone wants the Occupy movement to have all the answers now. Without immediate solutions we are declared "doomed" or "useless".

    We live in a society of immediate gratification and zero patience. It is no surprise, then, that while everyone was momentarily excited to see focus on income, justice and opportunity inequality, they don't have the wherewithal to hang in there for a long process. Thus an initial interest and then a backing off.

    We simply have to persevere and keep the national dialogue alive. This natural dip in support will more slowly grow now, over time.

    We can't walk away, however. The momentum of the this gargantuan system is too powerful and it will automatically return to status quo. We have to consciously push back for a long time.

    Please remember to Witness Revolution. It means so much to them that we pay attention.

    by UnaSpenser on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 09:22:48 AM PST

    •  Constitutional Amendments (0+ / 0-)

      And I though OWS wasn't interested in working with "the System"...

    •  Excellent comment (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Evolutionary, evergreen2

      I continue to find it amazing that so many people here at dkos are enjoying piling on with this poll.

      Your comment is so spot on that everyone wants instant change which is impossible given how deeply rooted the problems we are facing.  So it appears that it is easier to get some instant gratification from hippie punching rather than try to understand the movement.

      The status quo is unsustainable.  The status quo will destroy what is left of our middle class.  IMO, the Occupy movement has been a huge success in changing the national conversation.  We have reached a tipping point.  If we lose this momentum now, we may never have another chance to regain our democracy.

      The United States is not just losing its capacity to do great things. It's losing its soul.--Bob Herbert. gulfgal98's corollary- We are fighting back to save our soul. Thank you, #OWS for empowering us all.

      by gulfgal98 on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 10:47:26 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  A great point! How much are we hearing in the (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      evergreen2, ozoozol

      news about the worst environmental disaster in history - Fukushima?
      All of America was concerned for Japan, but that was so - you know, yesterday?  The radiation hasn't stopped coming, and the damage has not been undone - but no one is paying attention are they?
      These Occupations need to stay right where they are, or indeed, they will be forgotten.
      See any Tea Party rallies in the news lately?

      #OccupyOMC - "We have a permit, its called The Constitution".

      by Evolutionary on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 12:23:28 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Seeking Stasis (0+ / 0-)

      Organisms always seek stasis. When threatened, an organism meets the threat and neutralizes it or changes to accommodate and assimilate the threat, thus returning to stasis. Societies and communities are no different. At present the OWS movement is "noise" to most people and largely ignored. The movement is paid attention to when something happens to "disturb" stasis and it's generally something negative such as a death, a rape, a confrontation that's reported by the press. There is too little positive coming from the movement, no agenda, no issues, no leadership, just a distinct, but unfocused recognition that most people have been screwed by the 1%. Until and unless some real threat is perceived by the majority of the US society, OWS will simply fade away and will certainly have no lasting policy impact.

      Contrast OWS with the anti-war movement of my youth. There was a clear agenda, leadership, and a series of real disturbances that the society saw as a threat so real that action was taken. I don't see any such cohesion, discipline, or focus from OWS. It looks like just a bunch of nice, mainly white kids from decent backgrounds acting out. And, that from a supporter who's visited the site (Chicago), talked with participants, and has come away more frustrated than enthused.

  •  So the fealty to "alternative tactics" and the (11+ / 0-)

    the refusal to condemn violence in GA in Oakland and elsewhere has clearly had no effect at all. Right. This was utterly predictable. Yet those of us who have been strongly advocating here and elsewhere for that condemnation have been consistently excoriated as being "too concerned with message" or "if MLK had been concerned with the press coverage he never would have gotten anywhere" or variations on that theme. Media intelligence is a critical component to any movement.

    The optics DO MATTER.

    And this poll indicates that whether support remained steady the undecided has gone decidedly negative. This in my view is exactly because in the month between early October and the latest poll is when the movement had the opportunity to call out the violence-fetishist window breaking leeches - and did not do so.

    This is the result.

    post hoc, ergo propter hoc

    by RvgAqs on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 09:23:17 AM PST

    •  that's a lot of assumption on your part. -nt (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      cotterperson, mdmslle, pot, 0wn, 714day

      Please remember to Witness Revolution. It means so much to them that we pay attention.

      by UnaSpenser on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 09:25:54 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  It is I agree. It is one aspect though I think you (6+ / 0-)

        would agree that the coverage and visuals - although clearly hyped and amped in joyful looping on  the MSM have been stilted to their own narrative and framing - has not been beneficial to the movement. While the shooting of Scott here in Oakland was in some sense, and perversely so, actually likely engendered positive reactions it is the followon visuals of shattered windows and burning dumpster after the General Strike that is the latest image that people remember. People have a short attention span as pointed out above, it is therefore critical to be consistent in how the "outside world" perceives the Occupy encampments, made doubly difficult by the editorializing inherent in the MSM's alleged "impartial" coverage of these stories inherent in their corporate owners' demands to frame it in a negative light. Would you not agree that violence perpetrated in proximity to Occupy actions makes that more difficult to overcome?

        post hoc, ergo propter hoc

        by RvgAqs on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 09:32:55 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Pot, I'd like to introduce you to kettle. nt (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        mrbeen38

        Justified anger does not grant you unrestricted license.

        by GoGoGoEverton on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 10:12:24 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Did people really say that about MLK? (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      aisling, stormicats, Evolutionary

      'Cause that's some powerful stupid. I know we on the left like to pretend that being right and loud is all it takes to build a movement, but when did we get the idea that the Civil Rights Movement was a bunch of plucky amateurs? Hell, they had a media plan in Montgomery before Rosa Parks got on the bus.

      Formerly known as Jyrinx.

      “If I can't dance to it, it's not my revolution.” ― Emma Goldman

      by Code Monkey on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 10:01:30 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  I think some of this is true. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Evolutionary, evergreen2, RvgAqs

      Our most recent peak seems to have been the general strike in Oakland--and then that was messed with by vandalism tactics which don't accomplish much and undermine the reputation of the movement, IMO.

      It's also true that dealing with people who have drug addiction or certain kinds of mental illness issues can increase crime, or at least trouble that can be exploited by the other side for their optics. And in addition to people who simply have been kicked off the edge of the map by our economic system, homeless people include people who are severely mentally ill or who have serious drug addiction problems.  I know that people are going to flame me for saying this, as if I'm against the homeless or see them as inferior, but if people have issues, they do, and lots of times homeless people do.

      The shooting in Oakland and the suicide in Burlington don't help either, and what all these things except the black bloc tactics have in common is this:  they are issues in our society that people don't like to look at, and Occupy has pulled the curtain off all of them. So the media uses the oldest trick in the book to blame Occupy for all of them.  Kill the messenger.

      The fact is that lots of young black men get shot in Oakland all the time and no one pays any mind.  The fact is that veterans kill themselves in fairly large numbers every day in this country, but no one has to look at it.  Occupy is there, so let's smear Occupy with it, and then, with the camps gone, we can go back to not looking at it again.

      The thing is, that we must regain this ground, by reassuring both ourselves and the American people that this is not over. That we can be trusted. That we can trust ourselves to build a new, beautiful and more just country than the one we inherited.  That no grief or violence is greater than our faith in each other.  Once again, we need to pledge our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honor.

      Being ignored is the difference between being a one percenter and an American.--sweeper

      by SouthernLiberalinMD on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 11:18:57 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Speak for yourself... (0+ / 0-)
      So the fealty to "alternative tactics" and the the refusal to condemn violence in GA in Oakland and elsewhere has clearly had no effect at all.

      Our Occupation has a comprehensive condemnation of violence, and it's posted front and center.  Our non-violence committee was the first one we formed.

      Your awareness is limited.

      •  Thats all well and good, but the GA did not pass (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        SwedishJewfish, ozoozol

        any reso. It was withdrawn. I understand the reasons why from a process standpoint and am not sure I disagree with that. But you are really not addressing my argument here. As to my "awareness being limited" since the encampment began I have been down and participated there for 16 of those days, including the night of 10/25 and the GS. So yeah you might say I'm pretty invested. I am well aware of the things of which you speak, but what I am getting at (through a statement that was obvious snark BTW and your awareness apparently did not pick up in my first sentence) is unlike other Occupy sites, Occupy Oakland has not explicitly called out the tactics deployed after the General Strike through the vehicle of consensus in place - the GA. In the form of a declarative statement specifically distancing itself from those tactics, which is after all the "operating principle" of the Occupy movement and "approved statements" of OO specifically are the only ones that are "official" and serve as a "line of communication" especially after the 11/1 resolution. On October 27th the press release from OO stated "Occupy Oakland embraces a diversity of tactics among its supporters ..." On 11/1 the GA approved the statement asserting that the only official line of communication with OO was through the GA and "condemning unprincipled behavior" of people purporting to speak for OO. Unless something else has passed since the defeated "diversity of Tactics/Black Block" proposal and the withdrawn "Destructive Actions" proposal from 11/9, it has allowed those who would seek to destroy this movement by painting it with this caricature of window smashing, paint spraying, dumpster burning to proceed with that framing, augmented by the enabling media. In the vacuum of an "official" statement to the contrary passed by the General Assembly, all the front page proclamations allying with non violent civil disobedience principles and not specifically dissociating with those who view property destruction and violence as a viable tactic does not make it so.

        post hoc, ergo propter hoc

        by RvgAqs on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 04:03:32 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Well, yes, that IS speaking for yourself (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          RvgAqs

          You're right.

          But you did open that umbrella very wide:

          the refusal to condemn violence in GA in Oakland and elsewhere

          In our GA, we have solidly condemned any violence (OR destruction of property).  It is at the core of our principles, come to through consensus, and I'm certain that other GAs have done the same.

          I assume from this response that you intended the quote to mean that the GA in Oakland has refused to condemn any violence in Oakland or elsewhere.  That was not clear to me, and my statement that your awareness is limited was meant as a comment about Occupations outside of Oakland.  I apologize.  I am certainly no expert at all about the internal politics in Oakland.  I do see why you take issue.

          •  Not at all, I understood you to mean (0+ / 0-)

            you were from Oakland! Thus my Clarence Darrow push back! Where r you BTW?

            post hoc, ergo propter hoc

            by RvgAqs on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 04:42:12 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Occupy Temecula here (0+ / 0-)

              -- though we pull attendance from throughout southwest Riverside county (Occupy Riverside is the same difference from where we live but my girlfriend and I commute to Temecula, so that's our home base).

              And honestly, I did appreciate the OO civics lesson.  It was informative :)

    •  I have been saying the same about Oakland (0+ / 0-)

      over and over.  Oakland is a violent town.  Protests in Oakland have regularly turned violent or caused property damage (I don't know if property damage is violence and I really don't care because the media will report it as violence).  The optics of a group of people camping in the middle of downtown who have already been accused of causing property damage and who have failed to denounce the use of property damage as a protest tactic is horrible.   It is.  Sorry folks.  

    •  Only if you ignore the rest of the poll. (0+ / 0-)

      Where 2/3 of respondents said that OWS doesn't represent the 99%, which is pretty much inline with every poll since October where OWS has about 1/3 of respondents saying they agree with/support the movement.

  •  tents are temporary yet mobile signs of autonomy (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Evolutionary

    but are too easily reified i to the DFH meme new signs, forms, and (strategic/tactical) practices need to be created for the occupation.

    While problematic and definitely counter-productive and dangerous, the squatting incident in Chapel Hill without provoking the drawn SWAT weapons does suggest new and more sustainable structures and tactics for the coming winter

    I am off my metas! Präsidentenelf-maßschach; Warning-Some Snark Above"Nous sommes un groupuscule" (-9.50; -7.03)

    by annieli on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 09:27:33 AM PST

  •  The big question in my mind is whether (14+ / 0-)

    people feel like they are being asked about the actual protest at Zuccotti park or the broader message of OWS. The water cooler where I am has very divergent opinions depending on how the question is asked.

    Pareto Principle: 20% of the people do 80% of the work.

    by jeff in nyc on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 09:29:49 AM PST

  •  Noise.....it will move up and down and I (3+ / 0-)

    expect it to go up with the latest crackdowns. 40% support with 20 undecided are good numbers. Let's not get poll-crazy here.

  •  OWS may be better without the tents (6+ / 0-)

    OWS can leverage this opportunity to move on from the optics of a REI-L.L.Bean updated version of a Bonus Army. Management of coalition elements and all of the fringe groups at the margins has to be more difficult within an encampment.  

    Maybe there are enough recruits now to support a 24x7x365  protest.

    The fear of the 11/17 protest at the NYSE is a national event with international consequences and that seems like the highest priority focus today.

    And we all need to beef up the remote participation with far greater support for the protests.

    As the press robotically pushes the Cointelpro menu of movement disruption tools, maybe a Sam Stein type can pepper the WH Daily Presser with requests for a statement on the FBI or DHS involvement and local use of force against a national peaceful protest movement. It's a great tool to start solidifying the "record" in the daily pressers.

    In this post-9/11, Patriot Act, DHS world, American families need an explanation how peaceful protests will be accommodated,  what's being done to prevent the kinds of abuses we know we've allowed in the past, especially given the predictable intense pressure these TBTFs will put on local, state, and federal authorities.

    Maybe schools should embrace OWS and start planning civics field trips to the protests.

    Eliminate the Bush tax cuts Eliminate Afghan and Iraq wars Do these things first before considering any cuts

    by kck on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 09:45:37 AM PST

    •  I think the encampments are integral to the.... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Aquarius40, Evolutionary

      movement. They ARE the protest and represent the visible symbol of being left out, trampled on and forgotten by the 1% and their enablers. So the camps go on.....hopefully they will sprout up like a dandelion in unlikely places! Be creative...do the unexpected.

      •  In my small town the camp has driven away (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        kck, AZphilosopher, SwedishJewfish

        75% of the original supporters.  The little camp in front of the county Courthouse is populated by weed smoking homeless types who now are the public face of Occupy.  Many in the core tried to get rid of them but they started fights at GA's and the mostly older crowd just walked away out of fear.  We tried having a GA at a park, yet the junkies showed up and disrupted the whole thing.

        A few weeks ago Bill McKibben gave a talk at a theater across the street and the "campers" hassled folks attending.

        And now I hear the fuzz is dropping off the most disruptive at the encampment.

      •  Maybe. IMO citizens taking their precious time... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ocschwar, Evolutionary

        ...to stand up and protest, shoulder to shoulder, is the historic and dramatic event.

        A bunch of tents, perhaps empty, will crop up in any park, surely around here in Cal.

        Hell, tragically crowds of people (i.e., "left out, trampled on and forgotten by the 1% and their enablers"  and most of the 99%) sleep in the hillside across the street from the LA City Hall and across from Union Station, every night, always, forever. Even the 99% walk by every day. They don't have tents but seeing hillsides of sleeping bodies waking in the morning is a pretty dramatic sight and so much a fixture that the breakfast roach coaches stop there.  

        Maybe you're right but either way the movement can adapt.

        Eliminate the Bush tax cuts Eliminate Afghan and Iraq wars Do these things first before considering any cuts

        by kck on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 10:10:49 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Not automatically... (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        hyperstation, kck, Evolutionary

        ...at some point, the bad guys are going to get efficient at taking them out, legally and extralegally, and they will get better at provoking confrontations with OWS.  So it's time to come up with some alternative to the encampments that they haven't figured out how to trash, that has the same effect.  The trick is to stay one step ahead of the active opposition.

  •  This is both sad and very interesting. (3+ / 0-)

    I feel like the message that OWS is spreading and is becoming increasingly popular, at least from what I can tell. Maybe some of the same people who hear the message and agree with it also wonder about the methods and tactics being used by the actually Occupy people.

  •  Reality Has No Credibility in This Country (5+ / 0-)

    Even the realities of our own party, with most of the "reality party" members.

    No surprise.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 09:50:01 AM PST

  •  OWS news stories (3+ / 0-)

    local news stories were pretty balanced and reasonable, showing regular people who support occupyWallStreet. I noticed that the local paper in the past seek carrying national stories, AP mostly, which described various OWS sites as descending into criminal activity, even resulting in deaths at several sites. I wondered if these "national" stories were part of PR campaign against OWS efforts as the stories framed deaths as though OWS members/actions were responsible in some way. The slanted way of framing the deaths occurring near OWS sites struck me as a PR/propaganda effort. I wondered if these stories were for the purpose of redefining OWS as dangerous for purposes of shutting down sites.

    It would be interesting to track the nature of the OWS stories in traditional media. Initially income equality issues were getting more air time. It seemed that the last couple of weeks, more articles were making reference to rapes and deaths which were not accurately reporting those issues from what I could find from local news/blog/twitter comments.

    Between lazy or sloppy news reporting or an actual PR push, it is difficult to tell how these stories are driven sometimes.

    Regardless, it is not surprising that a new poll would show OWS losing some public support. I think Keith Olbermann in Special Comment has it right that Bloomberg might have helped OWS more than he hurt the cause. It will be interesting to see how OWS polls in a couple more weeks.

    •  I think the AP stories are a PR push. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      BeeDeeS

      What I found in a small town, our normally conservative press, was all for the original Occupy rallies and marches.

      However, now a few kids set up a camp, the homeless moved in driving out the kids, and now all we get are the AP stories.

      We fear if we have a rally then the junkies will create a scene like they have at GA's with a lot of fighting.

      Consequently, the press now is just running some AP stories about the "problems" elsewhere and devoid of the messages of the original OWS.

      •  One of the common themes at OWS has been (0+ / 0-)

        a repudiation of the "Drug War".  They keep rules to disallow alcohol and drugs at the Occupy to keep the public image 'clean'.
        Pot smokers and Junkies may be out there protesting in their own way.  Admittedly, probably the wrong way.

        #OccupyOMC - "We have a permit, its called The Constitution".

        by Evolutionary on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 12:34:59 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  The framing in recent media coverage (4+ / 0-)

    is all about the "clashes" between protestors and the police. Yet, nearly all of the violence has come from the police. Likewise, the stories about trash have included all the stuff confiscated from Occupy sites such as tents, books, and generators. Let's see. The media has slanted coverage to cast the Occupy protestors as dirty, diseased, and drugged out anarchists which has translated into declining public support.

    Be radical in your compassion.

    by DWG on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 09:50:30 AM PST

  •  Self inflicted (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jmknapp, ZedMont, Tuttle, Evolutionary

    I've seen pictures of a guy shitting on an American Flag - another guy taking a dump on a police car.  WHen images like these go viral - it hurts.

    Rather than the idiots doing it (you're going to get assholes - regardless of how you police it), I  was more dissapointed with the people standing around - watching - smiling - laughing and taking pictures.

    Add in anarchists and the slanted MSM presentation and it would be shocking if the numbers didnt go down.

    The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only legitimate object of good government. - Thomas Jefferson

    by ctexrep on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 09:54:08 AM PST

  •  Well then let's just get back (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    r2did2, Chitown Kev, ZedMont, Evolutionary

    to the democratic/republican thing.  See where that get's you.

    Things in life go up and down.  Persistence is the key to anything in life.  Occupy should persist in exactly what they are doing.

    Ordinary political process is dead. The Supreme Court killed it. In Chambers. With a gavel.

    by Publius2008 on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 10:00:31 AM PST

    •  I thought that the Democratic/Republican (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Cordyc, kat68, Evolutionary

      thing was the business of this blog in the first place.

      Yeah, I still want Obama over any of these disastrous clowns
      running on the right. Did Democrats and their allies defeat
      Kasich? Will they possibly defeat Walker? That's a "Democrat/Republican" thing that I will get behind. Just getting behind OWS and throwing the rest of the movements and ballots and issues out is absurd.

      Yeah, I'm still behind the Democratic/Republican thing.
      It's still not either/or with me and hasn't been for more than fifty years. I don't choose between the D/R thing and OWS.
      I can do BOTH.

      "...be still, and cry not aloud; for it is an unholy thing to boast over slain men." Odysseus, in Homer's Odyssey

      by Wildthumb on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 10:10:31 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  You can fool most of the people most of the time (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    humphrey, Evolutionary
  •  OWS needs to swtich tactics. (16+ / 0-)

    They needs to move away from the encampments and become more of an organized political movement.  OWS could still have wonderful rallies that could incorporate the encampment or "occupy" theme, but it has to be in the context of a legitimate political force that successfully and concisely articulates its beliefs (biggest failing of OWS) and works within the political system to elect progressive candidates.  

    Trust-Fund Kids of America Unite... save the Bush tax cuts!

    by JCPOK on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 10:10:32 AM PST

  •  Depressing but not surprising (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Geekesque, Plubius

    The movement lost focus very early on, by giving a mixed bag of issues pride of place alongside the critique of Big Finance and money-in-politics, and by privileging issues of movement governance.

    But nobody's buying flowers from the flower lady.

    by Rich in PA on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 10:10:35 AM PST

  •  Sometimes people here don't pay (11+ / 0-)

    attention to how these things play in the "rest of the country" (those who are not partisan and don't follow politics closely).

    At the beginning, there was some focus on the message.  There was video of marches, things seemed orderly, everybody said, sure, great, we agree.

    After a while, there started to be, in some places, stories about how unsanitary the "occupations" were, how the occupations were hurting small business around the areas, how the nearby residents and people who worked or owned businesses in the area were complaining, a few stores about fights, or deaths, or disease, that kind of thing.  And, of course, there were the videos like this one that certainly don't help.

    That video is all over, especially at conservative sites.  It got no play at all here.

    I think sometimes that some people who support the Occupy message are kind of blind to how those  who are not strong Occupy supporters are viewing the movement, especially lately.  The stories, and -- frankly -- the videos and stories of police trying to clear areas and protesters refusing to leave -- are turning some people against the movement and the message.  

  •  it's time for some new tactics, frankly. (8+ / 0-)

    the occupation is a good thing. But now it's time to begin drawing attention to the effects of income inequality and worker inequality rather than just camping out.

    Consistent focused intelligent ideas.

    One idea I had was to highlight the sub-living wage work conditions on Black Friday (rather than call for a boycott of it which is just stupid).

    Go to the mall or store and accept collections for the retail workers who are only making 8/hr and working 12 hour "holiday hours" without overtime. Stand outside just like salvation army santa and say that you're collecting money for workers who only make about 250/week while the CEO makes 10,000/hr. And then actually donate/split any monies between the actual retail workers at the stores.

    Things like THAT to help raise awareness and amplify the message.

    The effectiveness of sleeping in the park is significantly less than two months ago. Time for some new action.

    I've become re-radicalized. Thanks a lot you bunch of oligarchical fascist sons-of-bitches. But once again, I have no choice. Bring it the fuck on.

    by mdmslle on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 10:11:33 AM PST

  •  I don't think most avg people have any idea (5+ / 0-)

    what OWS wants.  Without a clearly defined and succinct set of goals, all that is left is the fact that a bunch of young people are camping out in city parks.

    Message is every bit as critical as tactics.  Perhaps more so.

    "In a nation ruled by swine, all pigs are upwardly mobile." Hunter S. Thompson

    by Keith930 on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 10:12:18 AM PST

  •  Face it (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Grabber by the Heel

    The "occupations" are over, in the sense of the camp-outs. Lately it's been a case of declaring victory and getting out. "Oh, we will come back stronger, the public will be galvanized by these crypto-fascist brutal oppressions by the police state."

    Now it's going to be protests during working hours, like at the Stock Exchange tomorrow. If the protest "occupies" the street or attempts to block access to the Exchange, then it will be another opportunity for bad PR and further erosion of the 33%.

    •  I don't think that's automatically true (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Evolutionary, Caipirinha

      If you block the NYSE, you have a focused message that most people can sympathize with.  If you block 5th Avenue at 42nd Street, not so much.  

      But nobody's buying flowers from the flower lady.

      by Rich in PA on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 10:14:14 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Time for OWS to move into a headquarters. (0+ / 0-)

      It is sad to see the peaceful camps go down with the ones that were compromised by violence. But if OWS organizes away from easily infiltrated street camps into a national network of people meeting in their living rooms or town halls the movement can stabilize and grow. The disruptive tactics of "black blocs", porn rioters, undercover cops, or whoever these assholes are who are causing violence are, can be minimized.

      The OWS movements broad appeal is not as a street fighting party but an idea that can give the 99% a way to push back and tear some of the political power and income from the 1%.

  •  Moving Overton Window Away From Austerity (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Answer Guy, Evolutionary

    The GOP has never been afraid to be obnoxious to move the dialogue.

    They've never cared about being liked, and they've always been willing to chow down a big plate of shit, lick the plate, and beg for seconds.

    There’s always free cheddar in a mousetrap, baby

    by bernardpliers on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 10:12:58 AM PST

  •  This explains the evictions. (3+ / 0-)

    Mayors are politicians.  When OWS was popular, they were going out of their way to kiss its ass and enable the occupiers' rights of expression.

    When the camps wore out their welcome, presto boom bah the first amendment becomes a ceiling as well as a floor.

    "[R]ather high-minded, if not a bit self-referential"--The Washington Post.

    by Geekesque on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 10:13:05 AM PST

  •  Not surprising at all. (6+ / 0-)

    OWS and related protests were, either by design or by apathy, leaderless and messageless.  There wre no point persons for distributing a message the larger population could grab a hold of.  Without a message, and without people to announce it, others have been defining the message, and that message is "we're too lazy and dirty to get a job."  I don't know why this has been so difficult to understand, but it has been.

    Messaging is everything.  If you don't have a message, people will stop following you (if they followed you at all).

    We reach for the stars with shaking hands in bare-knuckle times.

    by TheOrchid on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 10:13:29 AM PST

  •  Videos on WaPo yesterday, (0+ / 0-)

    here, probably didn't help the public perception.

    The link from D.C. police chief Cathy Lanier given in that article is here, seems to be legit.

    Moderation in most things.

    by billmosby on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 10:14:21 AM PST

    •  There are videos that are even worse (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      billmosby, DollyMadison

      like this one from Seattle.  This one is all over the place.  

      These kinds of negative videos get no play at all at this site Because people are so committed to the message, they are blind to how "the rest of the country" sees what's going on.

      •  Thank God for no zoom, eh. n/t (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        coffeetalk

        Moderation in most things.

        by billmosby on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 10:50:52 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Like I just commented on that video, (0+ / 0-)

        what makes you think this is legit? I notice that the filming began before the guy even pulled down his pants (I assume he did, though no passersby seem to notice so that could have been an intentional illusion for a distant camera), which leads me to believe the guy behind the camera knew it was going to happen, and he only squatted for about a few seconds - long enough for the whole thing to be captured on a camera phone.  Afterwards, he did not "return" to the camp, but just stood next to the trash can/mailbox/whatever that was.

        I call fake.

  •  I blame the thugs in Oakland (2+ / 0-)

    Who just showed up to trash shit. I feared it would happen and it did. Now we know why politicians didn't align with them.

    •  "Anarchist" violence aimed at peaceful protest. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Evolutionary

      Not the 1%. Many anarchists believe peaceful protest and marches are pointless. Or worse, bring about reform of the ruling system instead of destroying it.

      The drilled and efficient tactics of some of these "back blocs" indicate either under cover cops or trained provocateurs. If cops it is easy to figure out their goal, paint the protests and protestors as violent reckless vandals who will trash your town and property. And if they are organized saboteurs they must know breaking windows won't hurt the banks, but it will sure turn public opinion against peaceful OWS efforts. In short the black blocs and the cops have the same goal.  Discredit and ruin peaceful protest.

      •  and some just like to trash shit.. (2+ / 0-)

        I am talking of the ones that came later because it seemed like a good thing to do. They had no thought of change, they were there to destroy and have some fun.

        All it takes in this media to turn the tide of public opinion. When you get no positive national media news it is a matter of time.

        Plus the movement was never defined to the average dip shit who wants pictures in his/her stories.

  •  So, since congress' approval ratings (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Evolutionary

    are in the single digits, let's ditch it.

    Let's decide whether we are going to be summer soldiers against the patent corruption that plagues us or not.

    Ordinary political process is dead. The Supreme Court killed it. In Chambers. With a gavel.

    by Publius2008 on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 10:16:12 AM PST

  •  This. From DougJ at Balloon-Juice.com (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Evolutionary

    I was a little depressed until I read this from DougJ:

    "I don’t think this matters that much. Eventually, establishment media was going to turn the public against the dirty, thieving hippies. I do think this is why, for the most part, Democratic elected officials have been smart to keep a safe distance from OWS.

    The purpose of OWS, as I see it, is to (a) get the topic of income inequality in the air and (b) scare the Galtians. It is succeeding well on both fronts so far. The Zuccotti park eviction keeps the momentum going.

    I know that not everyone will like this analogy, but every movement needs its shock troops. You can’t expect people to love the shock troops. As long as you don’t let the troops nominate people like Christine O’Donnell or scream embarrassing things during debates, it’s all good."

    The only place it will matter will be on Twitter, where the RWers will gleefully post this poll url over and over. And over.

    This whole world's wild at heart and weird on top....Lula

    by anninla on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 10:17:04 AM PST

  •  Story is about tents now (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Musial, AZphilosopher

    There are Occupy tents a hundred feet from where I'm writing this. I mingle with both occupiers and cops. During the day, at least, it's nice and friendly.

    But the story has changed. Occupy is now seen as homeless camps, which people get tired of. That's not accurate or fair but the 1% have succeeded in changing the meaning of OWS.

    •  Many more Americans will become homeless (0+ / 0-)

      in the coming days.  It isn't just junkies and insane people now.  It's entire families.  Too many Americans are going hungry, too many without shelter, too many without healthcare, etc.  America is a homeless encampment.

      #OccupyOMC - "We have a permit, its called The Constitution".

      by Evolutionary on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 12:44:09 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  I tihnk (0+ / 0-)

    I think one of the big downward drags on the numbers were the stories of people who had small downtown businesses that were badly hurt by the camps.

    I am Zornorph; the one who comes by night to the neighbor's yard.

    by Zornorph on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 10:17:23 AM PST

  •  And a great success it has been (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jeff in nyc

    Putting income inequality back on the radar.  And destroying the Republican deficit CT.

    I think the drop in approval results from the obscuring of that message.  I recommend that OWS does what it needs to do to put that back on top of how it is perceived.  

    I recommend forming leadership to come up with concrete proposals about how to cure income inequality. I think that is what the we of the 65% want.

  •  Fox loves to make OWS look bad. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    humphrey, Evolutionary

    You can guess which parts they show.

  •  OWS would poll badly (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Evolutionary

    against the police, but well against Wall Street. The next step could be something that doesn't involve police. Since the Tea Party doesn't really exist as a movement, it has no similar constraints imposed by the police.

  •  I am listening to the (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    DSPS owl

    San Diego police Occupy news conference -
    They say 70-80% of the population in the camp is made up of the homeless population.
    A reporter asked if those arrested were members of the homeless population.
    The officer said - why, surprisingly no. We only arrested anarchists.  Question-what does an anarchist look like?

  •  This was bound to happen. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Musial, Evolutionary, Caipirinha

    Issues within some Occupations, differences with some of the factions within probably caused some of the friction that caused these negative numbers. Also a lot of the media that I've seen was typical "If it bleeds, it leads" and typical corporate misinformation regarding drug use, crime, sex, that the typical uninformed "news" (let's face it, broadcast, radio, print, and cable news are tools of the corporate dominion for the most part).

    And then add in the meme of the corporate media..."We don't know what OWS is protesting against" & "What are their demands?".

    Any average person hearing that would begin to wonder why all of those people are in the streets. If they heard from the corporate media that they were out there marching, halting traffic, and fighting police for no reason, then hell--that average person's perceptions would turn negative against OWS. It's common sense.

    Not everyone is going to check out an Occupation near them. Not everyone has an internet connection or knows about the OWS website. Not everyone realizes that the media is the mouthpiece and the voice of the corporate dominion. Not everyone is able to recognize that there are times when authority has to be challenged, especially after it has become hopelessly corrupted.

    And therefore they are easily manipulated.

    The rule is, "don't be a dick" - kos

    by cybrestrike on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 10:20:56 AM PST

  •  Time to brainstorm (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Evolutionary

    The whole objective should be in exposing the Propagandists and getting those who would vote for a 1% politician to stop giving away our Country.

  •  I think the negative perception is predictable (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Caipirinha

    Sure, there are a lot people who agree that the superrich are running things to the decrement of everyone else. They want this to change, and initially supported Occupy to some extent out of solidarity, but mostly because they were hoping from them in terms of an actual agent for change. As time when on, the Occupiers really didn't present anything specific or anything that even explained their program for how to come up with anything specific. So, people are basically giving up on them.

    This doesn't mean that they have rejected the underlying premise about inequality. But it means that they are ready for and demand something more specific.

    Speaking as a Democrat, this would be an excellent time for our party to step up, if it can, not by trying to support the Occupiers specifically, but by proposing specific, credible initiatives designed to reduce systemic inequality.

  •  The tents don't create good visuals on TV (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jeff in nyc, Dillonfence, Caipirinha

    The encampments look dingy and dirty on TV. As they've become the focus of the movement, with their continuance the top goal, it has detracted from the primary message of OWS -- income inequality.

    I never thought the physical "occupation" part made much sense.

  •  Clashes with Police will always get the same (0+ / 0-)

    results.

    Clashes with police have fueled coverage of Occupy Wall Street since late September, but such a tactic was always playing with fire. Right now, it doesn't seem to be working as well as it once did.

    Clashing with police will not net a long term movement.

    "The bottom line is, we've got to wake up. We can't allow our disappointment in Obama to lull us into allowing a truly dangerous strain of conservative philosophy to gain any more traction than it already has." --ObamOcala 4/5/11

    by smoothnmellow on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 10:26:08 AM PST

  •  The Takeway Is What Matters (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Evolutionary

    A system whereby a small percentage of the population are able to corral more and more of the national wealth and shut everyone else out is not sustainable. At best you will have stagnation as the fortunate few use their power keep things exactly the way they are. Collapse, whether from without or from within is inevitable.

    If people are somehow talking about how to cut off that feedback loop, than OWS has succeeded on a very real level regardless of what the movement's poll ratings happen to be this week.

    Stuck Between Stations : Thoughts from a bottomless pool of useless information.

    by Answer Guy on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 10:27:03 AM PST

  •  THe polling... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Evolutionary

    ...was done before the cops broke up the OWS encampment in NYC.  During that event, a lot of MSM reporters were roughed up by the cops.  (And they beat up a city council member who was then arrested.)  And a lot of people who otherwise don't seem to like OWS are pointing out that this was the best publicity OWS could have been given. I wonder what's going to happen once that starts entering the polling data.

  •  CHris I respect you, I really do BUT (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    badger, wyvern

    I find it kinda silly that you wrote a front page diary about the decline in popularity of a movement that challenges everything about the status quo and you based it on a POLL taken by pollsters for the status quo :)

    Surely you cannot be saying that OWS should care one iota what these POLLS say....   or perhaps you are saying just that?

    support for OWS cannot be POLLED...by its very nature people will oppose OWS until they get it that they ARE part of the 99% .

    I do still respect you though and hope you do not take offense that I thought this was a silly topic to waste time on, especially on the front page of DK

    "Orwell was an optimist"

    by KnotIookin on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 10:28:53 AM PST

    •  He had to post it. It's what they do.. (0+ / 0-)

      ..since I began posting here in 2007, Daily Kos has always used polls to frighten & confuse the Daily Kos community.

      Why, I don't know.  You'd have to ask Markos.

      When Fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in excess body fat and carrying a misspelled sign.

      by wyvern on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 11:45:11 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  The decline has only a little to do with (7+ / 0-)

    negative coverage of clashes with police, and everything to do with a perception that the Occupy camps are a bunch of homeless people with nowhere to go and nothing to do.  And like it or not, there is a kernel of truth to that.  Not completely by any stretch of the imagination, but a kernel.  Lots of people sympathize with the OWS message, and I am one of them, but camping out in a park all winter isn't going to accomplish anything.  What I have never understood, and what I think will continue to feed a deteriorating public image, is what happens next, how anything positive comes of this.  If the leaders of OWS have a clue how to translate the public attention they have captured into concrete political action, and just what that might consist of, I haven't heard it yet.

    One other point.  Can we take it a little easy with all the cries of "police state".  Civil disobedience entails a disruption of public order, and is going to bring on a reaction by the authorities, including arrests.  I actually thought that was part of the point of it.  It's part of the bargain you make, and expecting the police to come by with tea and cookies every day at 4 is ridiculous.  Outside of the Daily Kos echo chamber, claiming that the protesters are being savaged is not going to change those numbers up above.  Even for Kossacks, we have all seen what real torture looks like in the last decade.  This is not that, even allowing for a little pepper spray.

  •  I've been thinking of the saying (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Evolutionary

    attributed to Gandhi:

    First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.

    We've seen the ignoring in the traditional media's lack of coverage of the early part of the movement. We've seen the laughter in the 1% posting signs such as "We are the 1% paying for this" and deluging protestors with McDonald's job applications. Now we're seeing the fighting in police raids, tear gas, and head bashing (including the press).

    Victory is in sight.

    Now to try to end the wars we ask our gay and straight soldiers to fight. -- Chris Hayes (modified)

    by Cali Scribe on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 10:30:09 AM PST

  •  The way clashes with the police are reported (5+ / 0-)

    is as much a problem as anything.  I watch the live on line reporting from Ustream and Live Stream and then I read about the same thing in news.  It is totally different.  What I watched live bore little or no resemblance to what is being reported in the mainstream media.

    The "fair" and "balanced" way that the mainstream media reports is very much to blame.  They assign equal or disproportionate blame to the occupiers when talking about protesters clashing with police.  Yet in nearly every case, it is the police who are attacking the protesters.  They reported a killing outside the Oakland encampment as if it had anything to do with the Occupiers when it did not.  They talk about occupiers destroying property when it was black bloc who were not a part of the occupation.

    They talk about sanitation problems when the Occupiers in NYC had zero sanitation issues.  They had scheduled shower facilities available to the occupiers, portalets set up on a nearby property offered by the owner, and medical facilities to treat the most common injuries and ailments.

    The power that be are determined to kill the revolution.  Make no doubt about it.  They will use their media to do so because most people in the US do not know about or watch the live streaming video of the occupations.

    The United States is not just losing its capacity to do great things. It's losing its soul.--Bob Herbert. gulfgal98's corollary- We are fighting back to save our soul. Thank you, #OWS for empowering us all.

    by gulfgal98 on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 10:31:16 AM PST

    •  well said, hat tip n/t (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      gulfgal98, Evolutionary

      Above Grecian mantles were chiseled these words... Know Thyself... Nothing in Excess... the pop philosophy of its day.

      by ravagerofworlds2 on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 10:50:38 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Did you see this example at Balloon Juice? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      gulfgal98, Evolutionary

      This was an actual caption to an AP wire photo where a cop was repeatedly punching a demonstrator in the head:

      An Occupy Wall Street protestor draws contact from a police officer near Zuccotti Park after being ordered to leave the longtime encampment in New York, Tuesday, Nov. 15, 2011, in New York, after police ordered demonstrators to leave their encampment in Zuccotti Park. At about 1 a.m. Tuesday, police handed out notices from the park’s owner, Brookfield Office Properties, and the city saying that the park had to be cleared because it had become…

      You can see the actual photo over at John Cole's place.

      "Humanity won't be happy until the last capitalist is hung with the guts of the last bureaucrat." - Paris, 1968

      by turthlover on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 10:56:39 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Unreal! (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Evolutionary

        It is almost surreal.  Thanks for sharing that.

        The United States is not just losing its capacity to do great things. It's losing its soul.--Bob Herbert. gulfgal98's corollary- We are fighting back to save our soul. Thank you, #OWS for empowering us all.

        by gulfgal98 on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 11:07:42 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Jesse was interviewed yesterday on WNYC (0+ / 0-)

    by Brian Lehrer in the wake of the eviction, and the comments in reaction to it roundly criticized him as the spokesman for the group and his message, and this is typically a very liberal leaning audience

    "I'm sculpting now. Landscapes mostly." ~ Yogi Bear

    by eXtina on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 10:31:28 AM PST

  •  The means now eclipse the message... (10+ / 0-)

    A few weeks ago, the tent cities were a wonderful way to get people to learn about what OWS was about, its goals, the message, etc. The story has turned away from the message and is now about the tent cities themselves.

    That doesn't mean the OWS demonstrations can't be effective, just that it is no longer driving the broader media narrative and thus isn't illiciting sympathy and/or curiosity from the masses the way it once did. If the latter is the goal, it is time to change tactics.

    •  This is an interesting point (7+ / 0-)

      At some point a few weeks ago, it seems that the emphasis shifted away from highlighting the message of economic justice and all energy seemed to be focused on preserving the encampments themselves in the face of State violence. While that is an admirable sentiment, at that point the camps had themselves become "institutions" and were distracting from their core purpose. One thing the anarchists have taught us is that once a tactic has become a burden, better to pivot and try a new tactic.

      "Humanity won't be happy until the last capitalist is hung with the guts of the last bureaucrat." - Paris, 1968

      by turthlover on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 10:53:46 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  As someone who has seen an Occupy (4+ / 0-)

    movement over several days (in San Diego), the drop is not surprising.

    The challenges I've observed are as follows:

    - not enough regular working folks at the rallies as compared to Occupy's high watermark
    - very different agenda being promoted depending on whom you talk to at a protest. The pro-pot/anti-Israel stuff doesn't really sell with the suits.
    - too many clashes with police
    - anecdotal reports of incidents of rude or bad behavior with local vendors.

    The real model for this movement to follow is the anti-war protests during Bush's second term.  There was a great cross-section both in terms of demographics and socio-economic background.  There were very few if any major police clashes and that movement ignited a revolt against the GOP that took them out of power and ushered in Obama.  

    Alternative rock with something to say: http://www.myspace.com/globalshakedown

    by khyber900 on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 10:38:00 AM PST

    •  and Iraq is finally winding down in 2012 (0+ / 0-)

      Bush still got his way, since it was Bush's deal that Obama honored. shrug Bush and the media ignored the People on that one, just as the current Powers are ignoring the People on this one. Same response, despite different tactics.

      Above Grecian mantles were chiseled these words... Know Thyself... Nothing in Excess... the pop philosophy of its day.

      by ravagerofworlds2 on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 10:52:42 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  The anti-war movement (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Evolutionary

        is what caused the US to change its military strategy and move more into the background in province after province which substantially reduced the casualty rate among US troops and Iraqis.  It paved the way for UK withdrawal and the US timetable to withdraw. It also paved the way for Obama to introduce a new concept of international relations into the national political dialogue and he won.

        Alternative rock with something to say: http://www.myspace.com/globalshakedown

        by khyber900 on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 11:28:43 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  These numbers are unsurprising (6+ / 0-)

    Americans have become far more conservative in their core beliefs and views over the past 3-4 decades--and they were never as liberal as many rosy-eyed views of the 60's might suggest. A majority of Americans prefer liberal policies, but view the world through conservative eyes. It makes no sense, of course, but neither does the US, in many ways, a country founded on liberty while enslaving millions. We have always been a huge bundle of contradictions, held together by political, legal and economic baling wire and tape. We are generous and good, but also selfish and often just plain evil. We just don't make much sense, really.

    What this poll shows, I think, is that a lot of Americans don't really understand what OWS is about, and are confusing tactics with beliefs and goals. It also shows how easy they are for the media to manipulate (just recall how many appear to be ready to nuke Iran on the thinnest of the same tired old scare tactics that got us into Iraq). We are a nation of ignorant, impatient and often simply stupid mice, who want their cheese and don't really care or understand who moved it.

    Dems have done a simply abysmal job of aligning themselves with OWS properly and differentiating themselves from Wall St. and the GOP--perhaps because many of them are, well, aligned with Wall St. and the GOP?

    I blame this on a stupid, lazy and ignorant populace, and a stupid, lazy and weak Democratic party and its broader support structure. They are all corporatists now, and that is why they've failed to capture the public's support.

    Also, I think that OWS has failed to evolve properly. We need mass rallies and street protests breaking out spontaneously in symbolically important locations, not encampments in downtown squares, with prominent involvement by all the key players, like unions, teachers, nurses, firemen, cops, vets, homeowners, students, etc.--people the public can relate to, that would overcome OWS's image of being run by and for slumming hippies who shit on sidewalks (however wrong).

    "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

    by kovie on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 10:40:44 AM PST

  •  "The Beginning is Near" (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    srkp23, Evolutionary, evergreen2

    I posted a version of this in another diary:

    A popular sign at #OWS demos stated that the "beginning is near."

    I think that's just so. #OWS, as it was constituted, was never going to actually make concrete policy change. It wasn't organized to lobby, cajole or otherwise shift the levers of institutional power.

    To me, what it seemed put together to do was: 1.) demonstrate that people are fed up and angry; 2.) show each other that we aren't alone; 3.) build networks of activism and solidarity; 4.) try to prefigure a different type of human relationship and organization.

    That it did all 4, however briefly, was a remarkable achievement. That it also helped change the national dialogue about wealth and inequality was an unexpected bonus.

    It was inevitable that media coverage would turn negative or disappear and that polling numbers would follow. Media creatures are the elites of our society, their bosses are the ultra-elite, and their jobs are driven not by any standards of truth or decency, but by the same profit motive that has perverted every other American institution. If they hadn't gone negative, they would have ignored it once it was no longer "interesting."

    #OWS was never the alpha or omega of the needed revolution. It was a herald of the beginning. Robert Reich said it in his speech last night at Berkeley: moral outrage comes first.

    For #OWS, what is important is not to articulate a set of demands, immediately plunge into electoral politics, or any of that business as usual; what is important is to take the concrete bonds of solidarity, the new relationships, the passion and the sense of purpose generated out of #OWS and move on to the next battle in what will be a very long war to restore economic justice and political democracy.

    "Humanity won't be happy until the last capitalist is hung with the guts of the last bureaucrat." - Paris, 1968

    by turthlover on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 10:42:58 AM PST

  •  There is a pretty organized smear campaign (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Evolutionary

    going on.  It paints the picture of dirty hippies defecating in public.  That isn't a pleasant scene.

    Here's Dylan Ratigan again with his latest on getting the money out:

    http://unitedrepublic.org/

  •  not surprised. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Evolutionary

    Here in Rockford, we seem to get an increasing number of people yelling "assholes", "get a job", or giving us the finger.

  •  the media coverage of it has gotten (0+ / 0-)

    really negative lately, and there isn't a clear set of demands (which WOULD be popular out there) to offset the bad coverage.

  •  On Sunday (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    humphrey, srkp23, Evolutionary, evergreen2

    I spent the day here is Portland, watching the live stream of the occupy eviction and stand off with the robobcops. when the live feeds were down I would switch to local networks like KGW or KION of whatever the local Fox is called. I was amazed at the coverage on our local corporate media. It was nothing more then whipping up support for the eviction and demonizing the protesters and those who support them . Over and over the message was pumped out that these people were everything from the criminal element to filthy Hippies and dangerous drug users, lawless violent anarchists.

     Portland has a lot of homeless people and a lot of them are young. They usually stay in lower old town on the outskirts of the Pearl.  The two parks that were occupied is where I get off the bus when I go downtown. While not a nest of homeless, drug users and the 'criminal element' they have always been occupied by street people, just not in great numbers. When you consider that this park is literally next to the government building courts etc. that makes sense.

    The occupiers gave them food and shelter and cover, after all it is a public park nothing more public the the homeless. Why is this so horrible? What is wrong with people that they think no one should help these people and that they should be hated. It is part of what wrong with our country.

    Occupy has it's work cut out as our culture at least the delusional or sociopathic,  part of it has become really cruel, vicious and authoritarian loving. Even here I here about how they are fifthly as if this somehow invalidates what they are doing and saying. how can people look at lines of para militarily goons  facing peaceful protesters and cheer them on. To many episodes of 24" or other  violence porn and love of kicking butt you ask me.  

    Seems that the brainwashing,dehumanizing nastiness we have been submitted to for decades is going to take awhile to reverse. Perhaps these people who place cleanliness and pristine grass over humans will change their tune once they have to figure out how to keep their suburban lawns thriving and a roof over their head. Pretty hard to maintain  in a economy and government  that is hell bent on austerity and a government that is nothing more then their ATM and enforcer, globally and here.              

  •  What OWS is concerned about is not so (3+ / 0-)

    trivial as to lend itself to sticking a finger into the wind. The issues and concerns are poll-proof. That is, the issues are too important to be concerned about the arbitrary shifts of public opinion on the image of the OWS movement.

    Ignore the polls. This is not a short-term project. It is a long-term movement. The polls have no bearing on the necessity for OWS. Soldier on.

    I hear the Nielsens aren't very kind lately for "Two and a Half Men". Shame, that. But it doesn't affect our country's future or the health of our democracy.

    May you find yourself constantly in the company of noble souls.

    by Gentle Giant on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 10:49:02 AM PST

  •  Occupy Philly problems (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    billmosby, coffeetalk, mrbeen38, kat68

    1.  A rape, to which local organizers were callous in their initial response, basically say "rapes happen all over the City -- why is the mayor focusing on us?"

    2.  They're now blocking ~1000 unions jobs from starting on a $50M construction project where they're now located, one that's going to improve a public park, handicapped access to public transportation, add a ice skating rink, etc.

    3.  Increased involvement of anarchists, whose messaging is scaring off longtime volunteers at the site.

  •  the media will keep going negative, so (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Caipirinha

    stuff like the move your money campaign and other types of boycotts and stuff will probably have more of a chance of affecting wall st.

  •  It ain't like the Power Game is a new one; (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Evolutionary

    nor that handling dissidents hasn't been perfected over centuries. There are ways, today, to entirely bypass the confrontation/media spin/agents provocateur cluster of techniques long ago perfected, and today much enhanced.

    For instance:
    http://www.dailykos.com/...

    C'mon people, show some imagination!


    "Whatever you do, don't mention The War." Basil Fawlty, while mentally impaired.

    by Jim P on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 10:50:17 AM PST

  •  Bad tactics,bad leadership, hijacked by homeless (0+ / 0-)

    OWS turned into instant homeless encampments and confrontations with police.

  •  People tend not to identify with (0+ / 0-)

    groups that are being attacked--at least not until they know how the attacked weather the event.

    People to Wall Street: "LET OUR MONEY GO"

    by hannah on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 10:56:50 AM PST

  •  The word "Occupy" (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    srkp23, Caipirinha

    is now like the word "Solidarity" when it moved out of Poland in the '80s. It's portable.  It's a useful word. It doesn't have to mean "Occupy Zuccotti Park." Occupy shouldn't  be about the efforts to maintain a permanent squatters encampment.  The agenda is to point to the agendas of the 1%.

    "There ain't no sanity clause." Chico Marx

    by DJ Rix on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 11:02:01 AM PST

  •  Camping might be the wrong way to go (2+ / 0-)

    A place to flop, with food and medical assistance no less, is going to inevitably be a magnet for those with no place to go.

    A more disciplined gathering whose sole purpose is protest, with people leaving at night (while others take their place), might end up being more effective in the long term. Though admittedly it's harder to organize.

  •  I know Thomas Paine's words (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Evolutionary

    have been invoked repeatedly, but they're worth considering, repeatedly:

    These are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country; but he that stands by it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman. Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph.

    And remember, it's easier to win points in arguments with your neighbors than in those with your government.

    (-8.38, -8.00) Occupy!

    by hyperstation on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 11:08:27 AM PST

  •  Charles Pierce blog post (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    evergreen2
  •  Bad tactics by Occupy, I think (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mrbeen38, Caipirinha, Catesby, denise b

    the message in the last couple of weeks no longer has been about things like income inequality.  Instead, it has been whether these groups have the right to camp out indefinitely in the middle of cities, in encampments that were increasingly causing complaints from surrounding residents and businesses for a number of things, including the fact that surrounding businesses were being hurt and basic complaints like the small from the lack of sanitation driving people away from those areas.  

    When it was about income inequality, there would of course be broader support.  Occupy should have stayed focused on that message.  

    Over the last two weeks, however, it appears to most of the country like it's becoming more about whether they have the right to camp out indefinitely.  And, like I said, those camps are becoming less and less popular among the general public.  

    People won't support some notion that those camps can stay there as long as they want.  And when police try to clear them, people don't support protesters who refuse to leave.  If the police tell you that you are violating the law and have to leave and you say no, or lock arms so they can't remove you, or do other things to make it difficult for police to clear out the camps, you aren't going to get as much sympathy if police have to use force to remove you.  Yes, excessive beatings may turn some against the police.  But, basically, a lot of the public looks at the police use of force (not excessive violence like beatings with a nightstick, but force like dragging, pushing, shoving) to remove people as "you were warned to leave, and you refused.  What did you expect."

    It was a bad tactic for Occupy dig in so heavily over the "you can't make us leave" notion.  That made this more  about the idea that Occupy had a right to turn areas of cities into Occupy encampments as long as they wanted, no matter what it did to the surrounding areas.  That won't have the kind of broad support that the "income inequality message" had.  Unfortunately, that's the message that has taken over.  

  •  Nice spin job (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    pot

    On truly horrible numbers. Face it people this country has drank the kool aid of the conservative message and there will be no turning back until the good ole US of A is but a memory.

    No one can earn a million dollars honestly. - William Jennings Bryan

    by Buddie on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 11:21:37 AM PST

  •  What are OWS goals? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    NorthBronxDem, Caipirinha

    Interesting that people support or oppose "goals" of OWS when there aren't any clearly stated goals. A clear opposition to concentration of wealth and  political power in the hands of the 1%, but no specific solutions are presented.  Maybe the absence of goals, solutions, demands is the problem. People see groups that want to maintain encampments often in the face of opposition by local officials and police; maintaining the encampment becomes the goal. It seems that many people don't see why that's a good idea. Maybe the time has come for a tactical shift.

  •  One poll after two months brings this (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Evolutionary

    tempest in a teapot.
    This is a long haul and Occupy has nowhere to go but up.

  •  best thing OWS in NYC could have done (0+ / 0-)

    would have been to completely clean the park on their own about 4 hrs before the cops showed up, leaving it spotless except for one sign saying "we cleaned up the park for you. what will you do about the mess across the street?"

    •  They did this already. They had warning that (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      evergreen2

      an eviction would take place, and they left the place spotless.  This time, no warning, no media, closed air space, nearby residents forced to stay indoors - no witnesses.  For that matter, every Occupy I have seen is quite clean.  The other side of the street is not clean.

      #OccupyOMC - "We have a permit, its called The Constitution".

      by Evolutionary on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 12:59:24 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  I have partipated i Pro-chocie protests (0+ / 0-)

    We had:
    1. Leadership
    1. Goals to achieve
    3. Specific purpose for each rally, march or lobbying event.
    4.  different coalition groups invited.
    5. Speakers approved
    6. Specific messages and signs, so we were a unified front
    6. Rule of engagement for protestors
    7. People trained to protect protestors and keep out troublemakers.

    If you want change you need to engage in the political process, lobby congress for what you want.

    •  So what changed with your organized protests? (0+ / 0-)

      Did Congress suddenly change their minds and stop producing anti-choice legislation?
      There is more than one way to do anything.  There can also be contrasting opinions that are both "right" as well.
      "Containing" OWS and giving it rules to follow, attempting to put it in a framework you understand and like better - isn't effective either.

      #OccupyOMC - "We have a permit, its called The Constitution".

      by Evolutionary on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 01:02:29 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  I see some "blame the media" for these numbers. (0+ / 0-)

    That's the kind of excuse Herman Cain uses. OWS must start to shift tactics. Yes, the media may be to blame for these poll numbers, but, like it or not, that is the media that exists. Whining about it is not going to change anything. The question for OWS is, how does it get its message out. I support the goals of OWS 1000%, but I am someone, like many on this site, that takes time to know the issues. To average Jane or Joe, the whole occupy strategy is wearing a little thin. There must be clearly defined goals, that are clearly actionable. Look how that worked in Ohio when clearly defined goals were acted on. An unpopular law was overturned handily. Just occupying a park day after day gets stale. What actions are going to be taken? If OWS does not start to clearly articulate an end game, the media that we all despise will gladly do it for them.

  •  What I see on TV (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Evolutionary

    Is the goofiest looking people ever being interviewed.  As an example, last week on PBS Jeffrey Brown was interviewing some mayor and a OWS representative. The mayor was really very reasonable sounding. The OWS guy looked and sounded like a mental case.  I felt dismay that he was picked to be on national TV.  He dressed all in black and his eyes kept shifting around like he didn't know where to look. He spoke in a monotone and went on and on as if he had memorized some points.  His facial expression never changed.  He looked and sounded like the worst kind of zealot. Why did he have to be the spokesman?  

    I realized that most OWS people are new at this and haven't been doing national interviews much, if ever.  But almost anyone would have made a better impression for the movement.  MoT is great but I almost wonder if there is a plan to pick the goofiest people to show on TV as the face of the movement.  There is not doubt in my mind that that interview alone lost a lot of people.

  •  Polls on OWS have been meaningless to everyone (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Evolutionary, Musial

    now that you have one showing OWS unpopular, it still should mean nothing

    Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell. --Edward Abbey

    by greenbastard on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 12:10:27 PM PST

  •  aw fuck it! (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Evolutionary, evergreen2

    Well it is not a surprise that OUR President supports the Mayors of NYC/Oakland/Denver/Etc..Etc..Etc..
    bold mine..

    "
    Associated Press, Published: November 15

    ABOARD AIR FORCE ONE — President Barack Obama’s spokesman is suggesting the president believes it’s up to New York and other municipalities to decide how much force to use in dealing with Occupy Wall Street demonstrations.

    Spokesman Jay Carney also says Obama hopes the right balance can be reached between protecting freedom of assembly and speech with the need to uphold order and safeguard public health and safety.

    Carney spoke to reporters Tuesday as Obama flew to Australia. He was asked whether Obama had been following the early-morning police raid on Zuccotti Park in New York, where Occupy Wall Street protesters have camped out for weeks."

    Carney said the president was “aware of it.”

    Maybe he should look at this and think of his grandmother as he supports the Mayor of Seattle

    http://www.theatlanticwire.com/...

    "If you screw us we multiply"

    •  Where in that quote (0+ / 0-)

      do you see anything about the President supporting mayors?

      He's desperately trying to avoid this like the plague, he isn't supporting or not supporting anyone.

      The best pizza comes from New York.

      by JakeC on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 03:44:58 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  The #1 issue here... (8+ / 0-)

    as I see it, is NIMBY syndrome. The idea of protesting wall street was incredibly popular, as the polling during the first weeks showed us. I started seeing a shift in public perception soon after it expanded into “Occupy Together”, and it seems the polls have followed. Generally speaking, people do not like to see their parks “Occupied” and turned into tent cities. Then they became a magnet for criminal activity, and people who just went there because it was fun, because it was something to do, and because it provided plenty of opportunity to commit crimes- women sleeping out in tents, valuables all over the place, etc. So you attracted that element. And the element who didn’t care about anything other than partying and hanging out, maybe throwing shit at the cops and smashing a few windows for shits and giggles.

    I’ll use my sister as an example. When occupy first started, she was really enthusiastic about it. She is a struggling college student with tons of debt, working 2 jobs to survive- this movement really spoke to her. Then, her park in Charlottesville Virginia got occupied. She went to a GA at my urging, and didn’t feel welcome there at all. She said it was overwhelmingly male, very paranoid, and that she was getting oggled and cat called and didn’t feel comfortable at all. She was treated with suspicion and the GA turned into a shouting match. She will never go back, and now she doesn’t even feel comfortable walking her dogs in the park anymore. BTW, this is not just her experience, see this article about Occupy Charlottesville: http://augustafreepress.com/...

     And on a very basic level, she doesn’t understand why people are protesting in Charlottesville, of all places. And she is not alone in that. “This is supposed to be Occupy WALL STREET, not Main Street, not my street, so stop wasting my tax dollars when my town is already struggling and stop making my life difficult when I didn’t do anything wrong.” That is the sentiment I get from a lot of people right now, right or wrong. And I don’t see that changing for the better.

    Time to refocus ourselves back on the message of Occupy Wall Street back on Wall Street itself, IMO. Once you do that, I bet those numbers will start trending in the other direction.

    R.I.P. Troy Anthony Davis
    October 9, 1968 - September 21, 2011

    by SwedishJewfish on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 12:31:54 PM PST

    •  You just KNOW you are going to get a whole (4+ / 0-)

      lot of crap for this don't you? Like the diary Sunday where Bradical tried to say the same thing and got abused for 5-6 hours over it. I got your back on this one. I agree with you.

      post hoc, ergo propter hoc

      by RvgAqs on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 12:52:18 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Well I agree with you as well. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      SwedishJewfish, Caipirinha

      My daughters have been involved in the groups near where they live.  Neither group has had any problems but neither has had very much attention as well.  Both girls feel like the problem is that they can't really justify staying because there isn't really an articulable reason to keep doing that particular activity.  Especially in their towns.  Maybe that's the fault of their mom who makes them contribute to their own upkeep but that is the reality of it.  But both very much want to be a part of protesting the things the 1% have done to our country.  As does their mom.  This is not their first protest and they are very aware of the world around them.  In fact I like to think they have been involved enough to recognize the need to be productive and the difference between making a statement and spinning your wheels.  But whatever the cause we need to work toward a solution.  Because the enemy is real and harmful and the message was good.

  •  Police don't bludgeon Tea Partiers for the simple (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Evolutionary

    reason that the Tea Partiers are more heavily armed than the police are.

    So if people are thinking "OWS must be worse than the Teabaggers because the police are attacking them and never attacked the teabaggers", there is a serious flaw in their logic.

    "All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent". - Thomas Jefferson

    by bobscofield on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 12:42:57 PM PST

  •  I Find this Hard to Believe: (0+ / 0-)

    Higher Opinion of Tea Party: 43%

    Higher Opinion of OWS: 37%

    Really? People still remember the Tea Party?

    Will Rogers was right.

    by kefauver on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 01:56:22 PM PST

  •  I guess most American'ts... (0+ / 0-)

    want to be slaves. but, i dont' have to follow them into that dark pit of capitalist hell.

  •  It is odd (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Musial

    that nobody draws the obvious conclusion from the fact that OWS has been polling essentially the same as the tea party, which is to normal people they are just to ends of the extreme political spectrum that they don't want anything to do with.

    There seems to be this idea that if you just spout numbers at people that gosh, they have to come to your side, but it isn't really the case.

    A lot of people are just fine with the current systems we have in place to get things done. Not necessarily the current economic situation, or current people in office, but in the system itself.

  •  The next big opportunity (0+ / 0-)

    is demanding of people who want to get elected to Congress that they end private funding of elections or forget about a career in politics. This has mainstream support.Go to MoneyOuttaPolitics.org.

  •  If you want to be popular... (0+ / 0-)

    open a Facebook or Twitter account. But if you want to point out the inequities of the status quo and voice your opposition to the tyrannical corporate/political power and perhaps change the national dialog, then Occupy is a viable way of doing that.

    It seems like only yesterday that the polls were showing majority opposition to gays and lesbians getting married and gays serving in the military. But that didn’t stop those who believed that they could make change happen.

    •  The problem is the trend (0+ / 0-)

      n/t

      The best pizza comes from New York.

      by JakeC on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 03:41:06 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Trend Smend (0+ / 0-)

        Opposing the status quo is never popular until it is.

        Do you think that the people who are occupying Wall Street or Oakland or any of the many other locations give a rip about trends?  These people are sleeping out in the cold, geting bashed and pepper sprayed by police and facing arrest.  If they were worried about trends and polling, they wouldn't be out there in the first place.

        •  Ok (0+ / 0-)

          And if what they are hoping to accomplish is to convince each other of their righteousness, then that's fine.

          But, if they actually want to change anything at all, they need to convince others to join them (either literally or at least in spirit).

          Besides, the initital point I was responding to was referring to how things that were once polled poorly eventually became the majority position.  My response was that while you see that frequently, it is much less common for something to become even less popular, then come roaring back.

          The best pizza comes from New York.

          by JakeC on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 05:06:50 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  with a little help from the corporate-owned media (0+ / 0-)

    We have to make sure Occupy lives through the winter.

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