Skip to main content

I'd like to thank Dumbo for giving me the opportunity to be a guest blogger in the Thursday Classical Music Series. It's a great series, and I'm looking forward to covering Mahler's Fourth Symphony today. It's one of the most wonderful symphonies in the entire canon, with its last two movements being some of the most gorgeous music ever composed for orchestra. So let's get started, shall we?

[Panic-stricken conductor comes up to lone1c and whispers frantically in lone1c's ear.]

Wait. I'm supposed to cover Beethoven's Fourth? Really? Do I have to? You're sure you wouldn't rather want to hear about the Shostakovich Fourth, or Vaughan Williams's, or Brahms's, or Ives's Fourth instead?

[More whispering.]

Or Bruckner? Or Mendelssohn? How about Mendelssohn? Come on—€”everybody would rather hear about the Italian, right? Bah-dah-dah, bah-dah-dah, bah-DAAAH-ta-ta-ta!

[More frantic whispering ensues. lone1c deflates in defeat.]

No? Well, okay then. Beethoven's Fourth it is. Follow me under the flourish while I suffer my penance, will you please?

It's tough being the middle child. The older sibling gets lavished with attention, while the younger siblings get doted on with affection and often seem to have a license to break all the rules. The middle child, on the other hand, is often starved for love. Even when just as skilled or wonderful as their siblings, middle children just don't catch the same breaks. If you prefer a sports analogy: it's like being the best quarterback drafted in the late 1990's: no matter how good you are, you're just not going to look good sandwiched alongside Peyton Manning at one end and Tom Brady at the other. Nothing good can come of the comparison.

Beethoven's Fourth Symphony is the classic "middle child," stuck between the Eroica symphony—which was only the most mammoth symphony ever written at the time of its premiere—and the Fifth, which is only the most famous symphony ever written. For whatever reason, despite its many merits, it's languished in relative obscurity, and even now is the least often performed of the nine symphonies. (Thank heaven for Beethoven symphony cycles, which give it many of the performances it does get.)

Such is the dismal fate of the poor Fourth, that it even had the ignominy of getting "second billing" at its première: the star of that particular evening was another Fourth—the Fourth Piano Concerto—also making its debut that night. (And, if you're keeping score at home, the Fourth Piano Concerto was also the work in which Beethoven threw out the rulebook that Bach and Mozart laid down for the concerto, turning it into more of a work for soloist versus orchestra instead of soloist and orchestra.)

Now I'm not going to sit here and try to exhort you into believing that the Fourth is on the same exalted level of accomplishment as the Third, Fifth, Seventh, or Ninth; frankly, it really isn't as good as those other works, and I'm not that good of a snake-oil seller. The even-numbered Beethoven symphonies don't quite rise up to the exalted planes of the odd-numbered symphonies; few symphonies ever have. On the other hand, to say that they're bad would be to hold them to an impossibly high standard: they're as good as anything you'll find in the symphonic oeuvres of great composers like Schumann, Mendelssohn, Liszt, or even Bruckner (and certainly a heck of a lot shorter than any of Bruckner's ridiculously over-the-top essays).

While I recognize that the Fourth isn't an absolute masterpiece, I will certainly confess that I hold a special fondness for it. It's Beethoven at his "sunniest"; it's his version of Mendelssohn's Italian symphony. The relatively untroubled mood of the Fourth perhaps represents the necessary counterbalance to the overt dramatics of the Fifth, which was written at the same time. (In fact, scholarly study of Beethoven's notebooks suggest that he may have started composing the Fifth before he began work on the Fourth!)

What is indisputable is that the Fourth is very much the wayward child in the set of nine siblings, and is an outlier in many ways, including even something as mundane (or as critically important) as its instrumentation. The Fourth uses the smallest orchestra of any of the symphonies. The difference on paper between the Fourth and the others, however, is relatively minor: no trombones, just a pair of French horns and trumpets, and a lone flute, with no piccolo. The aural effect, however, is enormous: without the shrill upper octaves of the extra flute and piccolo, or the blaring trombones, and with the trumpets kept largely in check, the "inner winds"—the oboes and horns, and here the clarinets and bassoons in particular—are allowed to emerge through the texture a little more readily.

A fourth and a seventh, perfect together?

(Sorry, I couldn't resist.)

I promised I won't argue that the Fourth is good as the Seventh, which Dumbo has just finished reviewing at great length. (If you haven't read it yet, go check it out for yourself. I'll wait.) However, what I would like to argue is that the Fourth provides the template which Beethoven used for the Seventh. From a structural standpoint, there are just too many correspondences between the two symphonies. Both begin with slow introductions before leading to a dancelike first movement. Both feature stately slow movements, and scherzos with trios that just won't go away. And both finales are in the perpetuum mobile style, with short themes being passed all around the orchestra.

The obvious similarities between the two are made even more clear when the two
are played side-by-side (as they have been while I've written this piece). However, recordings of the Seventh are usually paired with the a recording of the Fifth—putting the two crowd favorites on a single CD. (The Gramophone and Penguin guides are filled with outstanding Fifth-Seventh pairs.) However, my favorite recording of the Beethoven symphonies, a slightly historically-informed set by Nikolaus Harnoncourt with the Chamber Orchestra of Europe, pairs the Fourth and Seventh on the same disk—just about the only time I've ever seen this combination, but one that made obvious sense as soon as I heard it.

For this column, though, since the tendency is to favor embeddable links over tracks you'd have to get through iTunes or another service (such as your local classical music vendor—if you still have one), I've chosen to include links to a recent live performance by Christian Thielemann and the Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra. I think it does a good job of balancing the "Classical" and "Romantic" aspects of the symphony, while also being in excellent sound. It also reveals something rather significant: even for one of the world's greatest orchestras, playing a Beethoven symphony is not just another day at the office. It's a struggle. Beethoven wrote for himself, to achieve the effects he wanted and to "tell the stories" he had in his head, seemingly often without real concern for how easy or fiendishly hard it is for musicians to carry out in actual practice!

A digression on some musical terms

Before we get to the business of breaking down the symphony,
we need to introduce some musical ideas that will describe what we're hearing. The one which you will be most familiar with is antiphony. It's more commonly referred to as "call and response," as you might hear in Gospel music, or your local Occupy (or other labor!) protest.

protesting in Beethoven's day.
Lead: "What do we want?"
Others: "A 6-4 chord!"
Lead: "When do we want it?"
Others: "Now!"

The general idea is just as the name implies: a "call" is met with a "response." Musically, you'll hear this a lot in "echo" works, where the performing ensemble is divided into two groups and one group echoes the other's material. It might also appear in a work when one group of instruments play one theme, to be met with another group responding with either a repetition (or slight emendation) of that theme, or perhaps a contrasting theme.

What happens, however, when the material getting passed around the orchestra isn't nearly so long as an entire theme? What if it's just a fragment of a theme, or a motif, or even just a chord? Well, then it's not quite the same thing as antiphony. Luckily, there's a term for this, too: it's called hocketting. We'll end up hearing a lot of it as we go through the Fourth—a lot more than we'll hear it in almost any of the other symphonies.

The other term that we'll run into is syncopation. This is something you're probably familiar with, even if you haven't heard the formal term. Syncopation is the placing of musical stress on beats that don't normally get the stress. For instance, 3/4 time is usually "STRONG weak weak," with a stress only on the first beat. If we instead change the musical pattern to be "weak weak STRONG," then we've introduced syncopation.

I. Adagio; Allegro vivace

Just like all of Beethoven's other symphonies, the first movement is in the usual sonata-allegro (or more commonly sonata) form. It has all of the standard subparts: introduction, exposition, development, recapitulation, and coda. However, like the seventh symphony, the proportions here are quite stretched out compared to the traditional sonata form movement.

The first "chord" we hear (1:09) really isn't a chord at all—just a B, played in several different octaves by just about every instrument in the orchestra, except for the oboes, trumpets, and timpani. It's a rather ominous and unpromising beginning, and the mood is certainly not helped by the strings (1:12-1:33), who apparently got up on the wrong side of the bed this symphony and decide to drag us immediately into B minor, even though the key signature resolutely says we should be in B major.

More tonality games ensue, as the first violins slowly creep their way up and down a tritone, while the second violins, violas, and the bassoon somehow stumble their way into landing on F major (1:44), and then repeat the whole exercise an octave lower. A buildup in the orchestra takes us to a sudden reprise of the opening salvo (2:12); apparently Beethoven liked this idea enough to repeat this whole sequence, except that instead of staying in B minor, the strings hold their penultimate G and refuse to resolve downward to F. The result is that we've now on a path that will take us eventually to B major (3:05). Beethoven still likes plodding upward and downward, but now we have all the strings
taking part in the pizzicato-arco (plucked-bowed) games. Angstier and angstier it gets, until all of a sudden (3:50), we get woken out of the stupor, the cobwebs clear out with two gigantic F major chords (4:00), and, at long last, we're off to the exposition (4:12)!

Now Beethoven starts to toy with us a little: where as we would normally expect a lyrical tune to emerge, instead, we get a "melody" of eighth notes interspersed with eighth rests! Just take a look at this:

What kind of "tune" is that, played out so short and staccato? And we have the entire orchestra throwing little ideas around—it's like none of the instruments really wants to have the melody. (Now that I think of it, an apt comparison would be like the 2012 GOP candidates tossing around the lead in the race.) So you have a whole lot of nothing flying around the orchestra at tremendous speed until we finally get something that sounds halfway lyrical. Could it be that we've found—gasp!—the second subject? Why, yes, it appears we have—at 5:07! So, while still nobody
wants to lead, they're at least taking a little more time, and giving us some snippets that you can hum along with at home.

Of course, Beethoven hadn't quite broken down the mold of the symphony completely at this point, so that means we have to have a first movement repeat, starting at 6:30. More hocketing and more hot potato action ensues as Beethoven toys with us a little bit longer. On the other hand, around 7:34, we do get to hear the adorable second subject group again, so it isn't a total loss.

More than halfway through the movement, we finally get something that resembles a development section, because it is a development section. The repeat sort of fizzles out on us, and we move into a weird little section that includes an unlikely duet between the flute and the bassoon, who have some fun with the first group tune shown above. The strings then want to have their turn, and then proceed to act like one giant stringed instrument, passing things up and down the various sections, with an assist from the timpani, until we build up to a climax like that of the start of the Allegro around 11:20. So it's off to the recapitulation, which is a little more somber
and bluer than the exposition.

Beethoven apparently gets a little tired, and decides to give us a brief coda around 13:08, with a flurry activity before winding down everybody to a loud, unison Bin the entire orchestra.

II. Adagio

The slow movement of the Fourth is obviously not the Adagietto of the Seventh. In part, this is because the emphases of the two symphonies, in spite of their formal similarities, is very different. The Seventh is, in many ways, all about the concept of the dance, and nowhere more so than in that mournful yet exhilirating, somber yet brilliant Adagietto.

The Adagio in the Fourth is the slow movement, or at least, it is on paper. It clearly is marked Adagio, but Beethoven creates the impression of the music moving very quickly. He achieves this through the "trick" of shortening the note values: using very short notes in a slow tempo can make it sound just as fast as an "Allegro" or "Presto" tempo marking! While a lot of the music in this movement is also based on the interplay of notes with rests, the primary emphasis in this movement is on rhythm.

The most memorable motif—the one that you'll end up remembering long after the rest of the symphony fades away into the night—is the "heartbeat" motif, consisting of a thirty-second note followed by a sixteenth note, with a thirty-second note of rest between "throbs." (These will also frequently, but not always, be played B-E, which are the dominant and tonic—the two tones toward which the music in this movement, written in E major, will necessarily gravitate.)


A few other short motifs will be heard, including a syncopated pattern of a thirty-second note followed by two sixteenth notes; you can think of this one as a "palpitating heart beat." The other principal motif is an undulating wave like pattern that outlines the notes in a major triad.


Unlike the sonata form movement, I'm not really going to try to give you a play-by-play breakdown. This isn't really that kind of movement. This is one of those times where Beethoven transcends the material he's working with, and spins straw into gold. There really isn't a theme being developed; it's more like a tune you'd hum along to yourself as your walking down the street, played against a few different rhythms. Yet from this, Beethoven does make something rather magical, even if it is the heartbeat rhythms and the wave pattern you remember, rather than those gorgeous melodies. But don't just take my word for it—listen to the movement a time or two yourself, and see what sticks out most in your mind! (And while you're at it, make sure to listen for the downward scales, which recall the ones heard in the first movement.)

III. Allegro vivace

The Scherzo of the Fourth symphony is clearly a predecessor of that in the Seventh. They have essentially identical structures, even including repeats in the first statement of the Scherzo subject. He even uses more or less the same scoring in the trio sections: both feature the clarinets, bassoons, and horns, with an assist from the first violins; in the Fourth, Beethoven adds the oboes for an extra dash of color—although he invites the rest of the orchestra to join in for the trio's climax.

If the first movement was based on the concept of the interplay of sound with rest, and the second movement is a study of rhythm, the third is a study of scales, as most of the movement is spent with the various instruments in the orchestra scampering about while running up and down. These aren't your traditional major and minor scales, though: G-E-C-A-G-F-E-D does not correspond to any of the standard scales or modes. So let'™s call it the "special scale," for lack of a better name. Beethoven works this special scale practically to the point of exhaustion: we hear it all over the course of the scherzo sections, upwards and downwards, in leaping intervals and unbroken sequences, and in part and in whole.

In contrast to this, the "trio" section (the part between the repeats of the Scherzo proper), are a lyrical island. Here melodies get to go up and down, sometimes even in the same phrase! Because of the unusual scoring, with the flute mostly absent, we hear the clarinets and bassoons to the fore, riding on waves of sound from the strings (and taking turns with the first violins, who normally hog all of the attention).

Typical of a Beethoven scherzo, we then return to the opening material, which is followed by a second repeat of the trio (although somewhat abbreviated). A third return of the Scherzo leads to a transition of what threatens to be the third time we hear the trio. However, the sudden movement to the ephemerally brief coda comes as a blessed relief to save us from tedium and pablum. Compared to the Seventh, Beethoven doesn'™t try to hide his intentions: the start of the theme is announced in the brass, rather than the winds, and at a much broader pace, making it clear that the home stretch is plainly in sight.

There is a flaw in the design, however, and it's a rather large one—the key of the movement is once more B major, just like the first movement and the finale as well. So we have an oasis of E major in the Adagio surrounded by lots and lots of B major. So the ear does get a bit tired of hearing the same tonality across such a long amount of time (that'™s why Boléro is so annoying—it'™s fifteen minutes of C major and about eight bars of E major). The Seventh symphony resolves this by casting the Scherzo in F major, so that no two consecutive movements have the same tonality (A major—A minor—F major—A major). On the other hand, as much as I love the rest of the movements of the Seventh, I rather loathe the Scherzo with the fiery impassioned flame of about five hundred burning TARDISes (out of a possible 1000): it overstays its welcome to the point where when the Trio theme repeats for the third time, I'm tempted to stab the "fast forward" button to get to the next movement, ending be damned.

IV. Allegro ma non troppo

As Dumbo pointed out in discussing the Seventh, Beethoven'™s real innovation in the symphony was to make the emphasis of the symphony the finale. It took him a little while to achieve it—it wasn'™t clearly so until the Fifth Symphony. However, the finale of the Fourth borrows a page from Mozart'™s playbook, in this case the Jupiter symphony. Once again, this is not to try to equate the two. (No Mozart or Beethoven fan would ever forgive me for such a preposterous claim!) However, the finale of the Fourth is rather remarkable, as he takes the "œgenerating" ideas from the previous three movements and combines them all into one whirlwind madcap dash that's quite entertaining. Although the conductor shouldn't get carried away, as Beethoven helpfully adds a ma non troppo (not too fast) to his Allegro. (All good things in moderation!)

Scurrying strings start off the movement, with a snippet of melody heard in the bassoon and clarinets (:29) before the strings present the main subject (:39), with woodwinds taking over at 0:49, before passing it right back to the strings (:55). hocketting at 1:05 and 1:20 from the first movement interrupts the leaping and skipping tune in the violins reminiscent of the scherzo. A climax at 1:41 leads to more scurrying in the strings and a return to the opening material (sort of). The oboe gets its turn in the midst of a flurry of strings (2:00-2:25) before the clarinet and bassoon duet returns.

A big wind-up in the strings appears to go nowhere (3:30), before leading to another wind-up, this time aided and abetted by the woodwinds. This leads to fortissimo hocketting at 4:08, before the bassoon does its best machine-gun impersonation at 4:25, with another return of the main idea at 4:30, before imitations in the winds and strings, and more hocketting ensues.

To get an idea of how hard everybody's working, just take a look at how full of notes the scores around 5:55, and how quickly the bassoon and clarinet are moving at 6:10, and everything else going on at the same time. (Again, also look at this is a preview exercise for the nasty little beastie of a finale in the Seventh.) One last moment of a sudden transition from loud to quiet at 6:25-6:30 leads to one last big wind-up in the orchestra, before the symphony comes to its resounding climax . . . well, not quite. There's one last little bit of call-and-response hocketting between the violins and bassoon, and then Beethoven calls it a day, ending on a triumphant B major chord. An exhausted and relieved orchestra gets a well-deserved round of applause for the yeoman's work done in bringing this neglected but lovely symphony to life.

Now Finalé to the Coda

Thanks for making it this far. In spite of the somewhat snarky attitude, I actually really do like Beethoven's Fourth. It's maybe what Beethoven would have written more of had he had a different upbringing: Ludwig through the fun house mirror, perhaps. It may not be the Fifth or the Seventh, but it doesn't mean we should give up on it altogether. There are too many works, even by the great composers, that we are slowly allowing to fade away from the canon, just because it isn't "popular enough." That, to me, is a shame, when there is such wonderful music still to be discovered.

I hope you'll join zenbassoon next week for a trip through Beethoven's Eighth, before Dumbo returns with more Beethoven.

Originally posted to lone1c on Thu Nov 17, 2011 at 01:32 PM PST.

Also republished by DKOMA and Community Spotlight.

Your Email has been sent.
You must add at least one tag to this diary before publishing it.

Add keywords that describe this diary. Separate multiple keywords with commas.
Tagging tips - Search For Tags - Browse For Tags


More Tagging tips:

A tag is a way to search for this diary. If someone is searching for "Barack Obama," is this a diary they'd be trying to find?

Use a person's full name, without any title. Senator Obama may become President Obama, and Michelle Obama might run for office.

If your diary covers an election or elected official, use election tags, which are generally the state abbreviation followed by the office. CA-01 is the first district House seat. CA-Sen covers both senate races. NY-GOV covers the New York governor's race.

Tags do not compound: that is, "education reform" is a completely different tag from "education". A tag like "reform" alone is probably not meaningful.

Consider if one or more of these tags fits your diary: Civil Rights, Community, Congress, Culture, Economy, Education, Elections, Energy, Environment, Health Care, International, Labor, Law, Media, Meta, National Security, Science, Transportation, or White House. If your diary is specific to a state, consider adding the state (California, Texas, etc). Keep in mind, though, that there are many wonderful and important diaries that don't fit in any of these tags. Don't worry if yours doesn't.

You can add a private note to this diary when hotlisting it:
Are you sure you want to remove this diary from your hotlist?
Are you sure you want to remove your recommendation? You can only recommend a diary once, so you will not be able to re-recommend it afterwards.
Rescue this diary, and add a note:
Are you sure you want to remove this diary from Rescue?
Choose where to republish this diary. The diary will be added to the queue for that group. Publish it from the queue to make it appear.

You must be a member of a group to use this feature.

Add a quick update to your diary without changing the diary itself:
Are you sure you want to remove this diary?
(The diary will be removed from the site and returned to your drafts for further editing.)
(The diary will be removed.)
Are you sure you want to save these changes to the published diary?

Comment Preferences

  •  That bassoon bit in the 4th movement is what (16+ / 0-)

    we do to show off.

    We use it for intimidation purposes.  Those who can double tongue strut around.

    "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." --M. L. King "You can't fix stupid" --Ron White -6.00, -5.18

    by zenbassoon on Thu Nov 17, 2011 at 03:01:11 PM PST

  •  Thank you (9+ / 0-)

    Great diary!

    Join us at Bookflurries: Bookchat on Wednesday nights 8:00 PM EST

    by cfk on Thu Nov 17, 2011 at 03:16:20 PM PST

  •  A few things I really like about the 4th (10+ / 0-)

    In the Thielman performance of the final movement above, notice, near the end of the movement, just before the last run, there's a beautiful buildup to a little climax, followed by this NASTY surprise of a Dim7 chord.  (Dim7s were one of the nastiest chords in the composer's arsenal before we get to late romanticism).  Watch starting at 6:11.  The NASTY chord comes in at 6:24, and -- watch Thielmann's face, the smirk on his face!  He enjoys that part.

    I'm not up on all the theory/analysis on the Fourth, but he seems to play a lot of playful games with Dim7 chords.  For instance, in the intro of the first movement, and that "funny scale" thing in the scherzo, which sounds like its crafted out of dim7 stuff.  Beethoven used dim7 chords all the time, of course, in all of his music, but in the 4th, it sounds to me like he uses it in all four movements in a particular way, a playful joking way, at many of the key points.

    The Sixth Symphony ("The Pastorale") uses a whole lotta Dim7 chords too, for instance, but they are used differently there, to create a sense of terrible violence, as in the storm movement, or as a moment of ecstasy in the final movement.  In the 4th symphony, it seems (my amateurish impression) to be used as an expression of wit and humor.

    •  Yeah, Beethoven liked to thumb his nose (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      IreGyre, northsylvania, Dumbo

      at convention, so this wouldn't surprise me one bit.

      In some regards, this is a distant precursor to the "surprise" ending of Ives's Second symphony, and other such works. Putting a chord like that to interrupt the progress, where you'd expect some sort of major chord to bridge into the coda? Typical Beethoven cheekiness. (Given that this symphony is about as sunny as Beethoven gets, it's definitely more humorous than anything else, in my opinion.)

      And once again, thanks for the opportunity to participate in the festival.

  •  There's more?? (6+ / 0-)

    Oh man, I'm pumped :)

    Thanks lone1c

  •  I Like the 4th! (6+ / 0-)

    I am looking forward to playing it next year! I play bass in the Rio Hondo Symphony in Whittier CA, and we are working our way thru a Beethoven Cycle, one a year. We just did Beethoven's 3rd.

    Help! The GOP is NUTS (& the Dems need some!)

    by Tuba Les on Fri Nov 18, 2011 at 03:25:30 AM PST

    •  I'm a choral singer (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Matt Z, Tuba Les, Dumbo

      So I get to have fun with pieces like the "Elegischer Gesang," the Ninth, and the Choral Fantasy. Still waiting for a shot to do the Missa, though.

      •  Great Music (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        lone1c, Dumbo

        Not too many amateur groups will attempt Missa Solemnis. Here is a story about the La Jolla Symphony and Chorus doing just that.

        I sometimes play with them, but I had to miss this concert because of a long standing Messiah Concert I play in Westchester, near LAX.

        Help! The GOP is NUTS (& the Dems need some!)

        by Tuba Les on Fri Nov 18, 2011 at 09:35:23 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Back when I was living in ABQ (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Dumbo, Tuba Les

          I used to sing with the symphony chorus there. An absolutely fearless group—they've done just about every major piece you can think of.

          Unfortunately, the symphony folded, but the chorus has kept its tradition going. This year, they're doing "Le Roi David" and a few other pieces. (But in years past, they've sung with the Philadelphia Orchestra and others, in everything from new operas to Missa Solemnis, the Berlioz Te Deum, and even Rachmaninov's "The Bells"—even if it was in English!)

          It was an amazing group to be part of, and it was one of the things I regretted most about moving away from ABQ.

  •  Thank you for this. I'm guilting of ignoring this (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    lone1c, Matt Z, eve, northsylvania, Dumbo

    even-numbered middle child.  Seriously, I've probably only listened to it a handful of times, and not at all within the last couple of years.  I plan to do some watercolor this weekend, and it will be the perfect piece to put on for some inspiration to get out of a rut.  Beethoven (good for painting music) but not the same ones I always play.

    Very nicely done, lone1c.  I hope you'll write again someday when Dumbo needs a week off.

  •  Your second line says "Mahler's Fourth"! (n/t) (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    lone1c, northsylvania, Dumbo
  •  Very nice! Now let's do something different: (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ramara, lone1c, Dumbo

    Much as I admire these classical music postings, why traverse the thrice familiar territory of Beethoven over and over? How about some symphonic works that need to be better known.
    I nominate the Franck D-minor Symphony and the Berlioz,
    Fantastique or Harold in Italy.
       I also recommend chamber music and solo piano. The
    Schubert Impromptus, the Debussy Etudes, the Berg
    sonata, the opera Wozzeck, the La Mer of Debussy, the
    Sea Interludes from Britten's Peter Grimes.
       Let me say again what a grand idea you have; please do
    keep it up, whatever the repertory is. But Beethoven deserves a rest. I admire you for putting so much time and effort into
    these discussions, and the musical illustrations. Lots and lots
    of work is represented in this!  Thank you, lone1c


    •  The plan is to round out the year with LvB (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      northsylvania, Dumbo, J Orygun

      But there's certainly a lot of stuff that could also be a part of this series. I'd love to do something with Stravinsky or Mahler or Dvořák. (Or maybe something really wild like the Zemlinsky "Lyric Symphony" or the Busoni Piano Concerto!)

      But one advantage of doing Beethoven is that his music is easier to get a hold of, and it's easier for a beginner to appreciate the structure of than, say, a Debussy étude or Wozzeck. (It's also a lot easier to find good YouTube videos for Beethoven!)

      Although if you'd have a topic you'd like to do, I'm sure Dumbo wouldn't mind an occasional week off for a guest post. (Solo piano music usually bores me to tears, so I'd be the last person you'd want to do the Schubert Impromptus or Debussy Études.)

      •  Yup. (0+ / 0-)

        And I'm not too boned up on most solo piano work, although there are quite a few.

        The reason we're doing Beethoven like this though is that, well, some people have NEVER heard Beethoven dissected.  These are the Shakespearean epics of music: Macbeth, Hamlet, King Lear, Othello, Richard II.  Perhaps more universal than Shakespeare in that they are not language-bound.  They're part of the story of what it means for us to have been the human race.  I use the past tense here, on purpose, because someday we will be gone, but the narrative of who we were as a species is caught up in this music.  

        Writing these Beethoven diaries is, in a way, part of my own personal "bucket list," but it should be on everybody's bucket list to try, at some point, to be open to the Beethoven symphonies.

    •  I love the Franck (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      lone1c, northsylvania, Dumbo

      You really have to get into chromaticism for that beauty, but soooo... gorgeous!

      When shit happens, you get fertilized.

      by ramara on Fri Nov 18, 2011 at 09:57:09 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  We already did La Mer, earlier this year. (0+ / 0-)

      I only talked about the final movement.  

      You're pretty much at the mercy of my own limited knowledge of things.  I can blab quite a bit about works that may be obscure to you (like the Mozart G-minor quintet or Piano Concerto #17 or the Bartok String Quartet #4)  because I already know them so well.  Others... uh, I like them, I KINDA know them, I can talk in generalities about them, but I can't really say anything more profound than what you'd be able to crib from a typical program guide.  

      That's why I'm all ears whenever somebody suggests something they would like to see covered, because they might actually be passionate about it to be able to write something interesting about it.  Like, Franck's D-Major -- that's a GREAT piece worthy of a diary, and I can whistle parts of it for you, but I don't feel like I know it well enough to do a whole diary on it.  If you want to volunteer to write one, PLEASE do and we'll make it a Thursday CMOPUS diary.

      Berlioz Symphonie Fantastique is coming soon, one way or the other.  I know Zen was talking about doing something related to Berlioz, and I'm not sure, but Samer may have been interested in it, too.  If none of them want to do it, I'd gladly do a diary on the Fantastique.

  •  Beethoven's even symphonies are the very BEST (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    lone1c, Dumbo

    filled with light, humor and sunshine.
    If you only had 3,5,7,9 you'd be in tears.

  •  Great diary (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    lone1c, DrPlacebo, Dumbo

    This conductor is so funny to watch.

    The second movement - with very slow long melody line and lots of 32nd note ornamentation is actually very Mozartean.  In the slow movements of the string quartets and some of the serenades, for example, I have had to mark in the eighth note beats to figure out where the hell they are.  Though usually marked in 4/4 time, they are actually in 8/8 time.

    When shit happens, you get fertilized.

    by ramara on Fri Nov 18, 2011 at 10:02:07 AM PST

    •  One of the interesting things (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ramara, Dumbo

      about movements like that is, to the listener, they actually seem much slower when played at a faster tempo. If this Adagio movement is played too slowly, the listener hears eighth-note beats, but accelerating it a little brings out the quarter-note beats. I've used that as an argument in favor of Beethoven's metronome markings.

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site