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Grover Norquist
Grover Norquist (Gage Skidmore)

Last night, Senate Republicans filibustered the Democrats push to extend the payroll tax cut. They also blocked the Republican plan to extend the payroll tax cuts. A majority of Republicans voted against both.
So a majority of Republicans voted against the Democratic plan to extend the payroll tax cut, and a majority of Republicans voted against even the Republican plan to extend the payroll tax cut.

In other words, the Republicans don't want to extend the payroll tax cut at all. They want to raise taxes on every single working American. Not just the middle class—if you have a job, the GOP just voted to raise your taxes for Christmas.

Perhaps it's because Grover Norquist really does rule their world.

Norquist met with Republican members today to let them know that opposing the extension of the payroll tax cut—which would provide many families an extra $1,000 a year—would not amount to supporting a tax increase, National Journal’s Billy House reported [Thursday].

Coincidence?

Originally posted to Joan McCarter on Fri Dec 02, 2011 at 07:12 AM PST.

Also republished by Social Security Defenders, ClassWarfare Newsletter: WallStreet VS Working Class Global Occupy movement, and Daily Kos.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Only letting the Bush tax (32+ / 0-)

    cuts on the super rich expire and making them pay more is a tax increase.

    This is just tax fairness.

    The media is going to have a field day with this.

    Oh wait....

    I was Rambo in the disco/ I was shootin' to the beat/ When they burned me in effigy My vacation was complete. Neil Young

    by Mike S on Fri Dec 02, 2011 at 07:19:42 AM PST

  •  No, not a coincidence (13+ / 0-)

    Thanks for checking, though.

    I am an atheist for moral purposes. Seriously.

    by otto on Fri Dec 02, 2011 at 07:23:32 AM PST

  •  RW supply-side experiment kills the middle class (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    theKgirls, grannycarol, figbash, JeffW

    Norquist on his right, Boehner on ours

    Präsidentenelf-maßschach; Warning-Some Snark Above"Nous sommes un groupuscule" (-9.50; -7.03) refusing to have a battle of wits with unarmed people since 1980

    by annieli on Fri Dec 02, 2011 at 07:26:02 AM PST

  •  Wrong motives, correct result. (22+ / 0-)

    We don't need to further undermine Social Security. The fact that Democrats--purely in the interest of political gamesmanship--are supporting this is indicative of just how Republican the Democratic Party has become.

    That Republicans aren't consistent and are full of hypocrisy on this issue is an indication of just how insane the Republican Party has become.

    •  The milionaire surtax would have taken care of SS (11+ / 0-)

      the millionarie surtax proposed by Dems would have covered the SS issue

      or is it you prefer not to read the facts?

    •  it doesn't undermine SS (0+ / 0-)

      the holiday, and the potential extension are paid for out of somewhere else so the long term viability of SS is not affected.

      but it is a holiday and the whole semantic/framing thing of whether it is 'raising taxes' drives me insane.

      I hate that we are playing the Republicans game.

      I refuse to believe corporations are people until Texas executes one

      by k8dd8d on Fri Dec 02, 2011 at 08:20:11 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  It undermines it politically. The "holiday" (5+ / 0-)

        was always a Republican idea, and yet look at how hard it is for even Dems to let it, or the paltry "middle class" portions of the Bush tax cuts, expire.

        At the same time, it shifts SS from being a self-funded direct benefit insurance program into partially a welfare "handouts from the rich" program, which undermines it politically and morally.

        American working families were NOT overtaxed in the Clinton era, and to demand that neither cut expire is to insist, falsely, that they were.

        Non enim propter gloriam, diuicias aut honores pugnamus set propter libertatem solummodo quam Nemo bonus nisi simul cum vita amittit. -Declaration of Arbroath

        by Robobagpiper on Fri Dec 02, 2011 at 08:26:57 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  It is amusing how many rank-and-file democrats (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Robobagpiper, Aquarius40, wsexson

          seem to miss that salient point.

          The Payroll Tax Holiday doesn't directly and immediately undermine the longterm viability of SS. Apparently stopping there, without any further consideration or political calculus, is sufficient for them. Not for me. I prefer to recognize reality and make predictions based on observations of past behavior.

          What you have noted is 100% correct. The actual political optics of this is that now Republicans (and their allies, the Democrats) can point at SS and claim, "See, SS is a direct contributor to the deficit. We need to cut it." But that analysis is never reached by some, because for them all that matters is an immediate political victory for their Tribe. The trouble is, the people they desperately want the victory for view them more as useful idiots rather than partners and teammates fighting against evil Republicans.

          •  Moreover, it means now they can legitimately (0+ / 0-)

            claim that SS is "wealth redistribution" and "handouts", which many Americans see as immoral.

            Before the ridiculous cut, it's an insurance plan with diminishing return benefits with increasing premium. You pay in, you get out.

            It's one thing to demand that the rich, who have benefitted the most from the commons, and who impose the greatest costs on it, to pay their appropriate share to maintain it. It's another entirely to demand that they be taxed specifically to give cash money handouts to people. The latter will offend a lot of people, not the least, old-school Labor Democrats who understand the dignity of work.

            Non enim propter gloriam, diuicias aut honores pugnamus set propter libertatem solummodo quam Nemo bonus nisi simul cum vita amittit. -Declaration of Arbroath

            by Robobagpiper on Fri Dec 02, 2011 at 09:02:13 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  SS is still not a contributor to the deficit (0+ / 0-)

            It has trillions in treasury bonds, some of which it will redeem as necessary, no? Once employment goes up, and the temporary "holiday" expires, it resumes as usual. Still good to raise the cap, but it doesn't look to me like there's any real impact on sutainability, and the backdoor tax cut that workers got this year is a good thing in the present circumstances....

            unfortunately, no one is paying me, so I didn't get a holiday from taxes on money I didn't make.

            what IS a contributor to the deficit are the bonds + interest themselves that congress took out to avoid raising taxes when they (taxes) were needed...to pay for Iraq, for instance...

            Without geometry, life is pointless. And blues harmonica players suck.

            by blindcynic on Fri Dec 02, 2011 at 01:46:56 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  wasn't there a "marriage penally" in Clinton era (0+ / 0-)

          taxes? Those were a bit painful. I have vague memories of that getting fixed with the Bush Tax cuts.

          I would much rather have no bush tax cuts for all, than reduced payroll taxes. Unfortunately, the "payroll tax" cuts (I prefer to call it the social security tax, because those taxes pay for s.s.) will seem like a tax increase, since we've had the cuts for 2 years. We're below median income, so we'd definitely feel them.

        •  agreed (0+ / 0-)

          I was responding to the previous comment that seemed to be worried about the fiscal impact.

          I refuse to believe corporations are people until Texas executes one

          by k8dd8d on Fri Dec 02, 2011 at 09:25:52 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  It does have a fiscal impact in an era where (0+ / 0-)

            senior pols from both parties are looking to justify cutting SS benefits in the name of "the deficit".

            SS didn't formerly have anything to do with the deficit. Now it does. The holiday made SS' fiscal health dependent on general government's largess.

            Add to this the lack of political will among Dems to let the abominable thing expire, and the current austerity fetish, and you have a situation where you have to cut benefits to make SS no longer impact the deficit.

            So the fiscal impact is indirect, but it is real.

            Non enim propter gloriam, diuicias aut honores pugnamus set propter libertatem solummodo quam Nemo bonus nisi simul cum vita amittit. -Declaration of Arbroath

            by Robobagpiper on Fri Dec 02, 2011 at 09:33:33 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

    •  I agree (5+ / 0-)

      This was a bad tax holiday to begin with.  Just another way to defund a program before you can call it broken and can kill it.  Besides, SSI is a trust, and needs to be funded by all that use or will use it.

      "Success is a dangerous as failure, hope as hollow as fear" - Lao Tzu

      by anotherroady on Fri Dec 02, 2011 at 08:25:49 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  You're right about how cynical it is (0+ / 0-)

        But wrong wrong wrong to use Stephen Mitchell's translation of the Lao Tzu in your sig line. There is no way that:

        寵辱若驚,貴大患若身。

        means:

        Success is a dangerous as failure, hope as hollow as fear.

        A better translation would be:

        Treat gaining favor or demotion as if they were both alarming, value great calamity as you do your own body.

        The proof is that the lines immediately afterwards explain the phrase:

        何謂寵辱若驚?
        寵為下,得之若驚,失之若驚,是謂寵辱若驚。

        What does it mean to say "Treat gaining favor or demotion as if they were both alarming"?
        With gaining favor or being demoted, gaining it is alarming, and losing it is also alarming.

        何謂貴大患若身?
        吾所以有大患者,為吾有身,及吾無身,吾有何患?

        What does it mean to say "Value great calamity as you do your own body"?
        What is a great calamity for me is making me have a body, and so if I have no body how can I experience any calamity?

        "Stare at the monster: remark/ How difficult it is to define just what/ Amounts to monstrosity in that/ Very ordinary appearance." - Ted Hughes

        by MarkC on Sat Dec 03, 2011 at 10:56:23 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Personally (0+ / 0-)

          I think Michell's translation is both more relivent for this time in history and brief enough to get the point across.  Success being as dangerous as failure reads as both are capable of placing you in peril.  As for hope is as hollow as fear, both emotions are baseless and are therefore hollow. I must admit I'm not familiar with all translations of "The Way" and I found your comment most educational.  I'll need to do some more reading. Thanks.

          "Success is a dangerous as failure, hope as hollow as fear" - Lao Tzu

          by anotherroady on Sat Dec 03, 2011 at 01:45:43 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Thanks (0+ / 0-)

            For taking it in the spirit in which it was intended.

            I guess my point is that this is Stephen Mitchell's philosophy, not "Lao Tzu" -- since I teach Lao Tzu to undergraduates it is a source of unending frustration that the Dao of Pooh and Stephen Mitchell are the most common exposures to it in the US. It is sort of like people in China knowing nothing about Christianity except for a mistranslation of a Bible line like "Blessed are the Teamakers" or something...

            But I realize the real way to solve this would be to publish a better translation that is promoted like Mitchell's was. Memo to self: find a good agent...

            "Stare at the monster: remark/ How difficult it is to define just what/ Amounts to monstrosity in that/ Very ordinary appearance." - Ted Hughes

            by MarkC on Mon Dec 05, 2011 at 09:40:28 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  If you do publish (0+ / 0-)

              Please drop me a line and let me know.  I would be most interested to read it.  I have found the philosophy (or what I know of it) very useful in dealing with lifes ups and downs and would love to have more backgound on the subject.  Cheers.

              "Success is a dangerous as failure, hope as hollow as fear" - Lao Tzu

              by anotherroady on Mon Dec 05, 2011 at 10:37:05 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

    •  We need to raise taxes, cut defense and (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      JustinBinFL

      get rid of the deficit which is hampering progressive policies.

      Conservatism = greed, hate, fear and ignorance

      by Joe B on Fri Dec 02, 2011 at 08:53:22 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  With respect... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Timmethy

        ... deficits are not the problem.  

        We need to raise SOME taxes (the super-rich) and while I agree defense spending is wasteful, we need much MORE spending on education and infrastructure, spending that would exceed any savings from defense cuts.  

        We also need to enact massive financial regulation to reign in Wall Street and while we're at it, I would like a pony.

        Sigh... Apologies for the negativity but the bastards are definitely grinding me down.

  •  This is right out of 1984 (9+ / 0-)

    Doublespeak.

    would not amount to supporting a tax increase

    Be the change you want to see in the world. -Gandhi

    by DRo on Fri Dec 02, 2011 at 07:40:58 AM PST

    •  but it's not an increase (6+ / 0-)

      and we are the ones framing it that way in order to gain support.

      The cut this year to 4.2% was a holiday from the normal 6.2 rate.

      If we don't frame it that way, we'll never be able to go back, and we must go back at some point in order to keep the system viable.

      The holiday doesn't hurt it because of the way it was funded, but a permanent cut will affect the system longterm.

      I refuse to believe corporations are people until Texas executes one

      by k8dd8d on Fri Dec 02, 2011 at 08:22:14 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  But the Bush (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Timmethy

        temporary cut for the wealthy would be a raise?

        Be the change you want to see in the world. -Gandhi

        by DRo on Fri Dec 02, 2011 at 08:30:24 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  my point is that we are doing the same (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          DRo

          thing that they are.

          Neither the SS holiday OR the Bush cuts expiring is a tax increase.  Both are the expiration of a temporary rate.

          By calling the non-extension of the SS holiday an increase, we are setting ourselves up because then they can say that the Bush cuts are one.

          We should be calling it an extension of the holiday...

          I refuse to believe corporations are people until Texas executes one

          by k8dd8d on Fri Dec 02, 2011 at 09:22:17 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Facts? (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        CentralMass, bornfdup, wsexson

        Who needs facts?

        We really got this one all wrong.  What on earth difference does it make to most of us to have an extra few dollars per paycheck?  For most, who get paid more frequently than monthly, it's almost unnoticeable.

        This was a tax holiday that made no sense and little difference to people but lots to the idea that SS was negotiable.

        When shit happens, you get fertilized.

        by ramara on Fri Dec 02, 2011 at 08:37:52 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  well, for my neighbor feeding her kids out (0+ / 0-)

          of the food bank, it probably does make a difference.  to most people on dkos, probably not.

          Obama was going for stimulative effect on the middle and lower classes, but it's a genie that's tough to put back in the bottle.

          I refuse to believe corporations are people until Texas executes one

          by k8dd8d on Fri Dec 02, 2011 at 09:23:38 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  No, it probably doesn't. Somebody using a food (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            ramara, wsexson

            bank's services probably earns so little money that the benefit they receive from the payroll tax cut is on the order of a few dollars every pay.

            Regardless, it would be far better to help this person out by just supplementing her income directly, rather than destroying the only retirement plan she likely has by giving her some immediate gratification that doesn't really help.

            I've been poor (verge of homelessness poor). That $20 a month looks like more than it really is, and it doesn't help nearly as much as you think. For people who are fortunate enough to have well-paying jobs, it might be on the order of a checkbook budgeting error (if that) for the mortgage.

          •  They are saying (0+ / 0-)

            up to $1000 a year.  Even that is less than $10 per month.  So a mother just barely getting by will not notice an extra 1 or 2 dollars in her paycheck.  Nor will the economy notice one way or the other.  

            Many of us here at DKos are barely getting by, because of disability or unemployment or some other reason.  We are much more like the rest of America than you seem to think.

            When shit happens, you get fertilized.

            by ramara on Fri Dec 02, 2011 at 03:28:16 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  I agree and that's why (0+ / 0-)

        I was never for the cut to begin with, and I don't understand why the dems are still proponents,

  •  And so because Norquist says so, they do so. (9+ / 0-)

    He has got to be one of the most powerful men in the United States of America.  So how come he's not better known and on every teevee talk show as a household name, who pulls GOP strings?  

    That's one more thing to add to my long list of small problems. --my son, age 10

    by concernedamerican on Fri Dec 02, 2011 at 07:42:04 AM PST

  •  Is this is a "tax increase" or allowing a tax (8+ / 0-)

    cut to expire. We can't argue one way with the Bush tax cuts and another way on this one. Yes, they are against a continuation of a middle class tax cut while they favor tax cuts to millionaires. Important and CONSISTENT framing.

  •  ltng expire not incrs BUT ltng bush tax cuts expir (6+ / 0-)

    is

    (sorry for the abbreviated words in the title of this post.....there just wasnt enough room...but according to studies the human brain doesn't look at whole words when reading anyway and can decipher words from only parts of words)

    Anyway; my point

    so letting the payroll tax suspension expire is not a tax increase per norquist but letting the bush tax cuts expire is a tax increase

    Insane yet it also completely unmasks the truth that norquist and repubs only care about the 1%

  •  When will middle class republicans wake up? (8+ / 0-)

    I just can't believe that the brainwashing by FOX, Rush et al has warped the minds of so many people.

    That great conservative base- they all can't be millionaires (or millionaire wanna be's).  

    Why are they allowing these few awful men destroy the country and all that we hold dear?

    I am so frustrated at the republican voter than I am at the republican congress.  Somebody put then there.

    It's time to start actively start fighting this war.

    Growing old is inevitable...Growing up is purely optional

    by grannycarol on Fri Dec 02, 2011 at 07:57:23 AM PST

    •  They can't wake up (13+ / 0-)

      It isn't about economics for the vast majority of Republican voters. They have been brainwashed into "knowing" that Democrats represent lazy minorities, drug addicts, terrorists, those scary gayz, atheists, and about a hundred other undesirable things.

      The Republican base at this point is made up completely of people who are victims of identity politics and even if they don't like what is happening to them, they can't vote for the other guys because that would mean joining with those "others."

      •  deniability is one of human's strongest psychologi (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        grannycarol, Herodotus Prime, myboo

        There are many vested totally into this worldview, the same many are vested totally into their flawed religious beliefs or other destructive or harmful relationships.

        If they realize the GOP (and for many Dems as well) they would have to admit they were wrong and worse---duped.

        Remember that GOP staffer last August, "Republican; 'We are both very bad', where the Democrat turned and said, 'No you are more bad.'"

        That said, when this whole menagerie come crashing down will some come over, but I guess like the Confederacy 25% or more will stay on that side---they like the illusion of privilege and class, even when they are not part of it.

        They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither safety nor liberty~Ben Franklin

        by RWN on Fri Dec 02, 2011 at 08:22:08 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Mostly... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Herodotus Prime, grannycarol

        But there are also those that believe Democrats want to take away their ability to become fabulously wealthy - it's the government holding them back.

        The 'Free Market' will decide. It will decide that the United States cannot consume 25% of the world's resources and the upper 1% cannot control 50% of the wealth.

        by RichM on Fri Dec 02, 2011 at 08:24:15 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Apparently there are no hard-working Republicans. (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      myboo, dark daze, jimreyn, grannycarol

      If there were, I'd think they'd be up in arms about this.

      For the same reason there obviously aren't any Republicans on Unemployment, Social Security, Welfare, ADC, Medicare, Food Stamps, or who have lost a dime on their 401k plans or a penny on their mortgages.

      It's the only explanation I can come up with.

      They said show a Government ID. They didn't say whose Government ID.

      by here4tehbeer on Fri Dec 02, 2011 at 08:27:27 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Will everyday Republican voters (6+ / 0-)

    NOW sit up and realize just whose side these jokers are on?

    I'm long-term unemployed, so I don't get any tax breaks one way or the other, but isn't this one step too far for the rest of the electorate? Will this be the issue that finally gets them voted out?

    Or will the spin-meisters simply play this as Democrats once again screwing up, and thereby giving R's the win again?

    I don't understand how the "regular" people in this country can be so stupid and so blind as to continue to support these clowns.

    "The difference between the right word and the almost-right word is like the difference between lightning and the lightning bug." -- Mark Twain

    by Brooke In Seattle on Fri Dec 02, 2011 at 08:00:43 AM PST

    •  No (6+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ferg, chrismorgan, DRo, RichM, Losty, Aquarius40

      They'll see their take home pay drop in January, and they'll blame Obama.

      Some people saw their take home pay decrease last year too - not because of the federal tax changes (though in some cases it was) but because their STATE taxes changed, or their pension deduction changed (this affected us, because that's been going up every year), or because their health insurance costs increased.

      But they didn't look to see WHAT changed, they just reflectively blamed Obama. Even though he doesn't pass the laws, that's up to Congress, remember. He's just ONE piece of the puzzle. And not the initiator of it, either. And he has absolutely nothing to do with STATE taxes, pension costs, or health insurance costs.

  •  Said It Before, Saying It Again (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    eXtina, RichM

    It's a waste of time to be a Republican and vote for who you think will be your Congressperson or Senator when the only person representing ALL republicans in Congress is Grover Norquist.  

    IYAAR, it's one man, one vote, for one man.

    Not democracy, a dictatorship.

    Readers & Book Lovers Pull up a chair! You're never too old to be a Meta Groupie

    by Limelite on Fri Dec 02, 2011 at 08:01:56 AM PST

  •  So they were for it, but now they're against it? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Julia Grey, jimreyn

    "I'm sculpting now. Landscapes mostly." ~ Yogi Bear

    by eXtina on Fri Dec 02, 2011 at 08:09:04 AM PST

  •  Super Grover's evil twin is evil. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    se portland

    In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice; but in practice, there always is a difference. - Yogi Berra

    by blue aardvark on Fri Dec 02, 2011 at 08:14:40 AM PST

  •  I thought the photo caption said (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    se portland

    Grover Norquist (Giant Skidmark).

    Sounds about right.

  •  I think we console ourselves (6+ / 0-)

    that we have pictures.

    Back in June Grover Norquist was a guest on the Cobert Report. Stephen asked him a 'trick question'. If it would save all of America's Grandmothers from being stung to death by fire ants, would you raise the marginal tax rate on the top 2% of earners? His answer was, 'I think we console ourselves that we have pictures.'

    That seems to be the answer that Norquist and the Republicans have for the American workers.

    Uploaded with ImageShack.us

    It is possible to read the history of this country as one long struggle to extend the liberties established in our Constitution to everyone in America. - Molly Ivins

    by se portland on Fri Dec 02, 2011 at 08:15:16 AM PST

  •  credit (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    MrJersey, bornfdup

    Give the crazies credit, they don't want something, it gets filibustered.  Dems weren't so keen on blocking a bill to detain American citizens for 10 years w/o charges brought--even though Obama promises a veto.  WTF?

    Apres Bush, le deluge.

    by melvynny on Fri Dec 02, 2011 at 08:16:43 AM PST

  •  Won't bode well for Scott Brown (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    MrJersey, Losty, JeffW, jimreyn, Aquarius40
    The surtax proposed by Democrats would have affected just 0.6 percent of Massachusetts taxpayers, who have an average income of more than $2 million. Yet Brown has somehow convinced himself that these few wealthy people should be shielded from a tax increase, even if it ultimately means that taxes go up on 113 million household.

    http://thinkprogress.org/...

    He signed the Pledge.

  •  At least now their position is clear and America (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    RichM

    can see the GOP for what they are. Rather than the silly distraction of negotiating to freeze federal salaries in exchange, and spending cuts, all of which would have resulted in no net gain, money-supply wise.

    "I'm sculpting now. Landscapes mostly." ~ Yogi Bear

    by eXtina on Fri Dec 02, 2011 at 08:17:42 AM PST

  •  Pure sophistry: (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    se portland, Losty, DRo, JeffW, jimreyn
    Norquist met with Republican members today to let them know that opposing the extension of the payroll tax cut—which would provide many families an extra $1,000 a year—would not amount to supporting a tax increase, National Journal’s Billy House reported

    And great campaign ad fodder, to boot.  "Grover Norquist is fine with tax increases as long as they're not on the top 1%.  And he's a shameless liar."

  •  coinkydink? I think not. n/t (0+ / 0-)

    OK. And now we begin the part of the show where we pull out individual words and phrases of the commenter to try to determine the "real" meaning of the comment.... let the games begin.

    by hillbrook green on Fri Dec 02, 2011 at 08:21:27 AM PST

  •  It's class warfare. Who knew? Oh, (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JeffW

    Mr. "Public Parks are yucky and I hate the government" Norquist knew.

    Thankfully Norquist has demonstrated that he has no integrity.  When he was all anti tax all the time he had some credibility; he was just stupid.  Now he's stupid and hates the middle class.

    Being ignorant is not so much a shame, as being unwilling to learn. - Poor Richard's Almanac 1755
    The government exists to protect us from the thugs who got rich ripping off our ancestors. - Mungley 2011

    by mungley on Fri Dec 02, 2011 at 08:23:08 AM PST

  •  Remember what Obama said, I am between you and (0+ / 0-)

    the pitchforks....that is what is reality right now

    They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither safety nor liberty~Ben Franklin

    by RWN on Fri Dec 02, 2011 at 08:23:20 AM PST

  •  King Grover: Screw the middle class (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    se portland, JeffW

    So the GOP opposes a tax cut for the middle class and small business, but wants to continue the tax cuts for the rich.  This annoys me not least because the reduction in payroll tax on small business would have been welcome in our small business.  

    We hired one new person this week and we would hire three more tomorrow if we could find the skill set.  

    Oh, how I wish that the MSM would call some attention to Norquist saying that opposing an extension of a tax cut for the middle class is OK but opposing an extension of a tax cut for the rich is not.  Is there any clearer proof that the GOP cares only about the rich?

  •  So not extending payroll tax cut isn't raising (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    se portland, JeffW

    taxes, but not extending the Bush tax cuts is raising taxes??

  •  I consider this pinhead an economic (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JeffW, mchestnutjr

    terrorist. He is clearly pushing the Grand Overreaching Partys' agenda. Not the anti-Christ Mitch McConnell, or Boner, its Grover. Republicans start trembling with fear if they don't do exactly what he says. Wish he would throw himself into a bottomless pit, but I don't see that happening, sadly.

  •  Who elected Grover emperor--seriously? (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    se portland, maryabein, JeffW, Aquarius40

    For that matter, who elected him to anything. this is why our government does not work.

  •  Premature from the start to call this (0+ / 0-)

    a victory...by Kos and others. THe only victories that are gonna happen will involve struggle, the street, and OWS. Get on board now!

  •  When the fuck did this Grover Norquist guy (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JeffW

    become America's dictator?  And aren't Republicans supposed to like tax cuts of any kind?  Oh, right, I forgot that these people think that tax cuts are only for the Almighty Job Creators, and everyone else can go fuck themselves.

  •  Norqist has extended the wrong finger (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    se portland, JeffW

    Slow thinkers - keep right

    by Dave the Wave on Fri Dec 02, 2011 at 08:30:18 AM PST

  •  That guy is Norquist? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    se portland

    I mean, for such a jerk... at least until he opens his mouth...

    ...he's cute.

    "But there's one thing that gives every Marine the willies, and anyone saying otherwise is a liar. Drop pods. That shit is terrifying, son."

    by Shaviv on Fri Dec 02, 2011 at 08:34:41 AM PST

  •  Great approach for Democrats, but will they have (0+ / 0-)

    the guts to go all the way with it and admit that Social Security taxes are just that: taxes?

    Democrats like to cling to the fairy tale of Social Security taxes as just being insurance payments or some such thing and, in the process, enable the Republican talk of class warfare against the successful.

    The full payroll tax -- which means both employee and employer share -- needs to be front and center when comparing taxes paid by the well to do and taxes paid by the rest of us.

    LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

    by dinotrac on Fri Dec 02, 2011 at 08:36:06 AM PST

    •  payroll taxes based on % of your income (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      dinotrac

      The payroll tax or SS taxes is a separate item when filing income tax for the self employed. Those who work for companies have it deducted from their checks. Those who are self employed pay it themselves and have a separate line item on their income tax form for the SS contribution. This is based on a % of your income, so higher earners pay more in SS taxes and get more SS when they retire.

      However the spread between the lower SS retirement payments and higher retirment payment is not that large, as in reality higher earners pay in much more into system, than they get out, as there is a limit on how much SS you can get per month when you retire. Higher earners may get s higher payments, but after a certain amount of earnings it never goes higher  than around higher than around 3,000 per month.

      •  Almost. (0+ / 0-)

        Higher earners pay more up to $106,000.

        Over that, it's capped.

        You pay more taxes on the the dollar you earn going from $50,000 to $50,001 than you do going from $500,000 to $500,001.

        It is true that higher earners pay more into the system than lower earners, which highlights the fact that it is a tax, not an investment.

        LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

        by dinotrac on Fri Dec 02, 2011 at 12:44:43 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  And -- almost forgot -- it's not your income. (0+ / 0-)

        Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but payroll taxes are on wages.  Interest, dividends, and other kinds of income more likely to be received by the well-to-do than the poor are not subject to them.

        LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

        by dinotrac on Fri Dec 02, 2011 at 12:46:32 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Why don't we start the ads now? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JeffW

    "Republicans voted to raise your taxes."

    There can be multiple memes, including the "signed pledge" w/grover, to whom we attribute more power than he has, IMHO. He possibly has a black book on congresscritters, but they all have black books on each other. I think of him as a tool, a useful blame guy, one who will be tossed away like last week's chewed up drumstick when he no longer is useful.

    Really, these guys aren't much nicer to each other than they are to the rest of us folks. In fact, most of these folks aren't very nice. They're selfish, greedy, out for themselves, screw their staff, buy off their families, commit adultery and on and on and on. Think they have any friends they can trust? I doubt it. Or not unless they pass them some silver.

    You can always count on Americans to do the right thing - after they've tried everything else. -- Sir Winston Churchill

    by bleeding heart on Fri Dec 02, 2011 at 08:39:09 AM PST

    •  Bad framing, reinforces right wing meme (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      maryabein, wsexson

      about taxes being bad. When will Dems stop using conservative memes?

      Conservatism = greed, hate, fear and ignorance

      by Joe B on Fri Dec 02, 2011 at 08:57:24 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  It's called marketing. (0+ / 0-)

        While I didn't describe the several ads I could think of, there's more to a message than "raised taxes." It's the context that matters.

        You said my so-called "framing" was there was about taxes. No, it's about pledges, hypocrisy and the target of those taxes. That's what MY ads would be about. You can make up your own ads to reinforce republican memes to your heart's content.

        When will folks stop jumping to conclusions that using a similar tactic is not the same thing as spouting a republican meme?

        You can always count on Americans to do the right thing - after they've tried everything else. -- Sir Winston Churchill

        by bleeding heart on Fri Dec 02, 2011 at 09:27:59 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Grover, Grover, Grover.... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    se portland

    So Norquist said ending the payroll tax cut does not amount to a tax increase...wait, wasn't that the reason they gave for keeping the Bush tax cuts?

    So once again, Republicans are hypocrites; and Grover Norquist, in one simple sentence, proved that he is full of shit.

  •  Maybe it's just my screen (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    se portland

    but Grover is looking really orange today.

    Maybe Boehner's sitting across the table out of view of the camera, and the color is just reflecting off of him?

  •  I disagree with extending the payroll tax cut (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    maryabein

    This is just a boon doggle issue. Reducing the payroll tax will not encourage employer to hire more people, and it will hurt the employees in the long run in regard to their SS.

  •  Someone please explain to me how (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    se portland

    (1)  Voting against the payroll tax cut extension is not a tax hike,
    BUT
    (2)  Voting against extending the Bush tax cuts is a tax hike.

    I'm genuinely concerned republican brains are going to start exploding soon from all of the cognitive dissonance.

  •  Grover Norquist doesn't treat a tax increase on (0+ / 0-)

    lower income people the same way that he treats a tax increase on his buddies, the Haves and Have Mores, his, and the Radical Republican's base.

    Hey Grover, you are raising the taxes of a wealthy person who maxes out the Payroll Tax at an income level of $106,000 by $2120 per year.  Don't you think that hurts "Job Creators" or is an income of $106,000 too poor for you to give a damn about?
    So, if you are rich, a tax increase is bad, but if you are poor or just well-to-do, it's ok to raise their taxes because it represents a reverse Robin Hood shift of tax liability from the wealthy to the not so wealthy.

    Republicans are like alligators. All mouth and no ears.

    by Ohiodem1 on Fri Dec 02, 2011 at 09:04:14 AM PST

  •  I wish I were a Republican. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    se portland

    It must be easy to be a Republican, what with people like Grover Norquist and Rush Limbaugh issuing your marching orders, and telling you what to do, think and say, all the time.
    Why, oh why was I born with free will and critical thinking skills? It's not fair. WHY??!?

    When will children learn to let their wildernesses burn?

    by fredo on Fri Dec 02, 2011 at 09:11:19 AM PST

  •  ONE CONSTITUENT (0+ / 0-)

    The republican party has and serves ONE MAN, and his name is Grover Norquist.  For republicans, he isn't just one of the 1%, HE IS THE ONE.

  •  Anyone concerned about the national (0+ / 0-)

    debt ought to be doing everything in his/her ability to end the Bush tax cuts.  That alone will reduce the deficit to a manageable size.

    Anyone concerned about social security stabilization ought to be doing everything in his/her ability to end the payroll tax "holiday".   Eventually that "holiday" will be used to undermine social security.

  •  The son of the CEO of Polaroid... (0+ / 0-)

    Does Grover Norquist have even a clue what life is about?  

    When was the last time he had a job that didn't consist of being a bull$hit artist?  He, like Trump, is a meaningless waste of flesh who will never run for office because he would have to reveal his finances,  which would reveal him for the loser he is.

  •  Taking a note from Revolution francaise (0+ / 0-)

    and what the citizens of France did during the late 1700's to the ruling class. Grover would most likely be climbing that scaffold if this were France in the 1700's.

  •  Doncha Know - It's Only Called A "Tax Increase" (0+ / 0-)

    when Grover says it's a tax increase. Norquist is giving cover to the right wingers to vote against the payroll tax holiday, by giving his blessing that it is really "not a tax increase." The sad thing is, the idiot Rethug base will believe it, but will complain that "Obama raised my taxes" in January when the payroll tax holiday expires. Which is EXACTLY what the Rethugs want - having their idiot base blame Obama for a "tax increase," and causing the economy to slow down even more by taking spending money away from the middle class. I understand that President Obama's hands are tied with regard to stimulus to the economy - but he NEVER should have gone down the tax cut road to begin with. Look how the Rethugs are going to use it against him. What Obama SHOULD have done (but didn't) was push for an extra big stimulus (by leaning on the Blue Dogs) when he had a majority in Congress at the beginning of his term.

  •  Reconciliation process was designed for this (0+ / 0-)

    Senate Republicans cannot block the payroll tax cut unless Democrats allow it.  On things financial, the Reconciliation process is easy.  Plus, because Reconciliation is designed to be temporary, there is no problem with year-to-year.

    Admittedly, we don't know what Republicans in the House might do, but we know that Republicans in the Senate cannot block this financial move.

  •  Could we drown Grover Norquist in a bathtub? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Woodrow Stool

    Please?

    Those are my principles...if you don’t like them I have others. Groucho Marx

    by Notthemayor on Fri Dec 02, 2011 at 09:29:51 AM PST

  •  Actually, this is one of the very (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    robbryant

    few issues that I agree with the republicans on.  I was never for the payroll tax cut and am still not. All it will do is just hurt SS later on.

    •  The Republicans Are Not Against The Payroll (0+ / 0-)

      tax holiday because it will hurt Social Security - they are against it because it would increase taxes on the so-called "job creators", the top 1% (the payroll tax holiday extension would be paid for by a millionaire's surtax of 0.5%).  Of course, the top 1% are not creating any jobs anyhow - at least not in this country.  In reality, the Rethugs are against extending the payroll tax holiday because they want to protect their wealthy campaign contributors period.  They don't give a damn about anybody else.  P. S. Democrats need to start using this same ammo. against the Rethugs during the inevitable hostage taking that will occur when the Bush tax cuts are scheduled to expire at the end of next year. "It's not a tax increase, it's the expiration of a temporary tax holiday."

  •  "This wouldn't have happened without OWS" (0+ / 0-)

    Don't gloat before you vote.

    Money doesn't talk it swears.

    by Coss on Fri Dec 02, 2011 at 09:45:20 AM PST

  •  Why aren't I seeing/hearing outrage from Dems (0+ / 0-)

    about the Repubs vote?  My guess is they are still seeking to compromise with Repubs.  Here we go again.

    The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. Bertrand Russell

    by accumbens on Fri Dec 02, 2011 at 09:51:13 AM PST

  •  Norquist is a real piece of trash. (0+ / 0-)

    "An enlightened zeal for the energy and efficiency of government will be stigmatized as the offspring of a temper fond of despotic power and hostile to the principles of liberty." Alexander Hamilton, Fed. Paper No.1

    by FriedmanIsDead on Fri Dec 02, 2011 at 10:05:21 AM PST

  •  They sure do hate America (0+ / 0-)

    Grover and the rest of the GOP who obey him and the Kochs and the other masters. When are GOP voters going to break out of the spell under which they're being kept and start punishing these America destroyers?

    GOP: Government for the One Percent

    by Timmethy on Fri Dec 02, 2011 at 10:39:32 AM PST

  •  If Grover is right.. (0+ / 0-)

    ..then opposing an extension of the Bush Tax Cuts does not constitute a tax increase, either.

    "To pass these defendants a poisoned chalice is to put it to our own lips as well." Justice Robert Jackson, Chief Prosecutor, Nuremberg.

    by Wayward Son on Fri Dec 02, 2011 at 11:29:51 AM PST

  •  Republican Sheep (0+ / 0-)

    I can't wait for the next Congressional elections.  If people aren't smart enough to vote Norquist and his sheep out of office,  I'm moving to Canada.

  •  THE KING (0+ / 0-)

    King Grover NORQUIEST lives the king of the CORPORATE REPUBLICANS. I thhought that GEORGE WASHINGTON AND HIS ARMY BANISHED A KING FROM THE UNITED STATE. And we were nevert to take an OATH to any HUMINBING just the FLAG AND CONSTITUTION. THE REPUBLICAN LOVER THERE KING, GROVER NORQUIEST.

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