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Open Thread for Night Owls
First we've got Marines pissing on dead bodies. And now this. The photo below was taken in Helmand Province, Afghanistan, in September 2010. Pictured are 10 Marines of Charlie Company, 1st Reconnaissance Battalion, out of Camp Pendleton, Calif. Emblazoned on the blue flag hanging below the U.S. flag is the logo of the notorious “SS,” personally loyal to Adolf Hitler, known for brutal war crimes and deeply involved in the extermination of Jews during World War II. The connection in the photo is apparently to “scout sniper," an exclusive Marine Corps category.
(Tayler Jerom)

Capt. Gregory Wolf, a spokesman for the Marine Corps., told a reporter for The Marine Times that officials did not become aware of the flag until it was brought to their attention this past November. When it was, the Marines involved were ordered to stop using the logo, which has long been a favorite of neo-Nazis and other white supremacist organizations.

“We don’t believe these Marine Corps snipers had a historical appreciation for what this symbol meant,” the official said. “As soon as leadership was made aware of it, they took action at the unit level and then passed that information throughout the sniper community and to those snipers serving in Afghanistan.”

That seems possible, said Allen Falk, national commander of the Jewish War Veterans of the United States of America.

“We believe that these young men likely did not understand the significance of this symbol, and we call on the Marine Corps to increase education on American history,” he said. “This issue goes beyond one of racism or anti-Semitism. Our fellow Americans fought and died to stop the Nazis, and it is shameful for any member of the military to display the symbols of Nazi Germany.”

Shameful, indeed. But as to all dozen of these men being wholly innocent of the meaning of that logo? Not a single one of them had ever seen a single war movie with some SS officer strutting around with those runes on his lapel? Nobody thought to Google them? As if these symbols were somehow ambiguous. Puhleez. And as to higher-ups in the Marine Corps being unaware of this until November. Not a single officer? Riiiiiight.

In the second photo, look just ahead of the trigger guard on that 7.62mm M40 sniper rifle and you'll see the SS "runes" again. The two Marines in that photo were with the scout sniper platoon of the 1st Battalion, 7th Marines at Twentynine Palms, Calif. According to electronically embedded information in that photo, it was taken in 2004. Are we expected to believe that's the only sniper scout rifle with that logo imprinted on it?

(Military Religious Freedom Foundation)
Corps officials at the Pentagon refused to comment on whether the Marines involved were disciplined, and would only repeat that the issue had been handled at the unit level.

The reason these photos are just now hitting the news is because 45 active-duty Marines contacted Mikey Weinstein, president of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, because they were disturbed by the photographs. Thankfully, some Marines had a problem with what they saw.

The photos prompted Weinstein Thursday to send a letter to Secretary of Defense Leon Panetta. He wrote, among other things:

The implication of these photographs, if true, should be readily apparent. If the use of the Nazi insignia has been, in any way, condoned or tolerated by the Marine Corp. [sic], the implications are abhorrent to everything for which our country is fighting and the constitutional principles for which it stands.
Weinstein also sent a letter to Gen. John Amos, the Marine Corps commandant. In it, he said the Marines involved should be punished: "That flag symbolizes the vile ideology of Hitlerian fascism and sends a menacing signal to religious minorities within the United States armed forces."

No kidding.

He told Adam Weinstein (no relation) at Mother Jones that the Marines may have been reprimanded, moved to new units or given some kind of non-judicial punishment: "That's unacceptable. If this is not a court-martial offense, there are no court-martial offenses."

Some folks no doubt will view this as just funnin' around. Boys being boys. Some folks, like, for instance, the organizers of the Conservative Political Action Conference, who this year invited a white nationalist to address what he views as the plague of diversity in America.

You would think that if anything would get zero tolerance in the American military, it would be the display of Nazi emblems by men in uniform.


Blast from the Past. At Daily Kos on this date in 2011:

So how scared is Orrin Hatch of getting teapartied next year like Bob Bennett was in 2010?

Well, he's scared enough that he apparently crashed a Tea Party Express town hall on Tuesday to announce that the time had come to "get armed" and "fight back" against the people who have "run this country into the ground" by spending money on things like the TARP bailouts of Wall Street [..]
The only thing Orrin forgot to mention was that he voted for the TARP bailouts of Wall Street. So in fact he's telling teahadists to "get armed and get out there" against people like himself.  Oh, and for extra credit, the individual mandate was originally his idea.


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Comment Preferences

  •  Saints and Sinners (49+ / 0-)

    As author George Orwell wrote in Reflections on Gandhi, "Saints should always be judged guilty until they are proved innocent." The faithful, meanwhile, have to deal with reality.


    See reader comments in the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

    Contraception

    The Obama administration is instituting a policy requiring health insurance plans to offer birth control to women free of charge. That includes plans provided by Catholic hospitals, universities and charities. As you might expect, church leaders and social conservatives are not happy.

  •  I did a Flickr post today (17+ / 0-)

    I'm running out of steam but trying trying hard with number 43 in my Flickr 200 project.

    Today's was Autumn on Van Cortlandt Lake.

    I may have set a record for photo comment though -

    Outside of sunset views from my window, this tree has been my primary photographic subject. I guess everyone has a favorite and repeated composition. Probably for most photographers it is a view that is very close to home. This favorite close to home subject of mine has become my personal photography study. In the six years since I took up photography I've probably taken over a thousand photos of this same tree and the portal it frames of a peaceful lake.

    As often as I walk there it is still hard to believe that this a view of an urban lake. A bit more impressive is the fact that this lake is in the largest and most populated city in the United States. Really impressive is the name of the nearest street, this lake and this most favorite portal of mine is just off Broadway. Oh sure it is about twelve miles north of "Phantom of the Opera" and at the very last stop on the Broadway local but I still like to think of the view as the northernmost point of the Great White Way.

    This tree once stood beside the New York and Putnam Railroad that has come and gone. For many years when "The Vanny" was a rowboat lake, friends and couples used the tree for purchase as a means to pull themselves up from the water and explore the nature of the other side of the lake. I've witnessed that the topside of the trunk of the tree has not had bark for generations. Initials have been carved and then worn smooth by others who had rested on this lake side tree. Now with the railroad gone, the tree leans away from the bicyclist, hikers, joggers and cross country skiers who enjoy the nature of the "Old Putnam Trail."

    I've studied this old stressed tree in every season and from every angle. For six years I've used this tree as a shady background for the swans, geese and ducks who gather there for the bread and popcorn that many people bring. I've taken snapshots of fisherman leaning on the tree or showing off their prized catch. I've gotten picnicking lovers to pose under the shads of the tree and taken candids of the many couples. I have photos of youngsters skimming stones from under the tree and often talked crowds of young people to pose by the tree as they enjoy a day at the lake.

    But my primary composition is this portal view that frames a peninsula where I often enjoy taking nature walks. In the foreground there are often waterbirds to make it interesting and behind the peninsula is the entrance to the oldest public golf course in America. I've captured this same view during every stage of autumn, at the first frost, covered in snow and ice, taken pictures when the background understory shows the first signs of green, the sprouting fresh tree leaves of spring, the bright green of April going over to the warmer greens of May. I've captured this tree, that I've been told is a Catalpa, decorated with white flowers standing over sweet pepper bush and covered with wilting bean pods standing above the goldenrod.

    The following year I start all over again, keep running that play until I get it right. Somewhere along the line, I began to identify with this old tree.

    Do you have a favorite and repeated composition that you would like to share?

    No reply but you might want to give the photo a try, Autumn on Van Cortlandt Lake.
    Thank you.
  •  Why has Keith been MIA at Countdown so often? (4+ / 0-)

    He was supposedly sick with bronchitis recently but returned to his show earlier this week looking healthy. But now he's been gone for the past few days again. And he's had an awful lot of guest hosts since the new version of Countdown got launched on Current TV last year. Is he being a pompous ass who shows up when he feels like it to express his anger with his new bosses (with whom he apparently is bickering with already), or is there another reason he's so often missing from his own show? Between the awful production values on Current TV, my already spending enough time watching Rachel and Lawrence every night, and Keith's apparent petulance, I'm thinking of forgetting about Countdown. It offers very little to me that similar shows don't at this point (and yes, I know Kos is on it).

    "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

    by kovie on Thu Feb 09, 2012 at 08:37:49 PM PST

  •  The "SS" stands for Scout Sniper, which is (18+ / 0-)

    like the height of sniperness in the Marine Corps.

    I knew guys that got the Scout Sniper symbol tattooed on them back in the late 80s. It has been used for a very long time, it is not new by any stretch of the imagination.

    Sometimes dudes even get it branded on them. I honestly don't believe it pays any homage to the German SS.

    "... the Professional Left, that is simultaneously totally irrelevant and ruining everything" (Glenn Greenwald)

    by ranger995 on Thu Feb 09, 2012 at 08:38:00 PM PST

  •  I would highly recommend the book (9+ / 0-)

    Unequal Democracy by Larry Bartels (2008) to everyone on this site. I'm reading it tonight for class, and so far it has basically been a mathematical analysis of the past sixty years showing why everyone should vote for democrats. It explores income inequality, and it paints an excellent picture for the left.

    Democratic presidents have routinely used these [honeymoon] periods to produce vibrant economic growth for families in every part of the income distribution; in contrast, Republicans have routinely presided over economic contractions and declining incomes for middle-class and poor families.
  •  May I present the rare triple * facepalm *. (24+ / 0-)

    "There's nothing in the dark that's not there when the lights are on" ~ Rod Serling

    by jwinIL14 on Thu Feb 09, 2012 at 08:40:46 PM PST

  •  Oh hail the fuck no !!!! (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    commonmass, acnetj, mrsgoo, Saint Jimmy, rbird

    Vile and contrary to everything that Marines and other American armed forces have fought and died for.

    Court-martial every last mother's son of 'em......

    “Fair? Fare is what you pay to ride the bus. That’s the only ‘fair’ I know.” ~ Heylia James, from Weeds - 1st season

    by ozsea1 on Thu Feb 09, 2012 at 08:41:25 PM PST

  •  Lame excuses pending (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Tennessee Dave, mrsgoo, debedb

    Uh would you believe the flag was accidentally hung upside down?

    Response: If you "got it" you wouldn't be a republican

    by JML9999 on Thu Feb 09, 2012 at 08:42:43 PM PST

  •  Vote Moves Washington State Closer to Gay Marriage (9+ / 0-)

    New York Times - February 8, 2012

    SEATTLE — Washington was poised Wednesday to become the seventh state to allow same-sex couples to marry after the State House gave final passage to such a bill. Gov. Christine Gregoire promised to sign it.
    One last hurdle:
    The governor is expected to do just that as soon as next week, but it is not likely to take immediate effect. Under state law, if opponents gather 120,000 signatures, the measure will be put to a public referendum before it can be enacted.
    Another step forward despite the latest religious freakdom crisis :)
  •  As far as the Marines are concerned, (12+ / 0-)

    that is positively disgusting. Repugnant. Vomit-inducing.

    The glorification or our military and our militaristic fetish in this country would be enough to give the Kaiser (either of them, German or Austrian) a wet dream.

    Santorum: Man on Dog; Romney: Dog on Car. equalitymaine.org

    by commonmass on Thu Feb 09, 2012 at 08:44:15 PM PST

  •  Mardi Gras comes early for ethics committee (6+ / 0-)

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/...

    Rep. Bachus faces insider-trading investigation

    The Office of Congressional Ethics is investigating the chairman of the House Financial Services Committee over possible violations of insider-trading laws, according to individuals familiar with the case.

    Rep. Spencer Bachus (R-Ala.), who holds one of the most influential positions in the House, has been a frequent trader on Capitol Hill, buying stock options while overseeing the nation’s banking and financial services industries.

    The Office of Congressional Ethics, an independent investigative agency, opened its probe late last year after focusing on numerous suspicious trades on Bachus’s annual financial disclosure forms, the individuals said. OCE investigators have notified Bachus that he is under investigation and that they have found probable cause to believe insider-trading violations have occurred.

    Response: If you "got it" you wouldn't be a republican

    by JML9999 on Thu Feb 09, 2012 at 08:48:17 PM PST

  •  Marines...per the wife....They're all about 5 foot (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    commonmass, Tennessee Dave

    4 and about 18 years old......I agree.

  •  I know it is a not all (5+ / 0-)

    Marines -- and I sure as hell don't buy the "didn't know the historical signifcance crap" -- but I do find it very odd that big bad brave men who can piss on dead bodies, show the standard of a bunch of genocidal maniacs, were the ones most afraid of gays/lesbians joining them openly -- in combat.

    The Marines themselves better control their brethern because the stink is getting stronger.

    Vi er alle norske " My faith in the Constitution is whole; it is complete; it is total." Barbara Jordan, 1974

    by gchaucer2 on Thu Feb 09, 2012 at 08:50:56 PM PST

  •  Given its treatment of female Marines, I've (6+ / 0-)

    never been super hyped on the WOOO I'M A MARINE thing (not while I was in, and not after I got out) ...

    but all these snipers lately are making me EXCEEDINGLY glad I got out. Embarrassing. I don't care if they've been doing it for years ... there wasn't a single person who said "damn, guys, maybe we should pick another font"? Not ONE?

    I refuse to be an incubator.

    by talismanlangley on Thu Feb 09, 2012 at 09:00:13 PM PST

  •  KISS (3+ / 0-)

    Those are not SS runes. SS runes have longer vertical lines and the crossbar is slanted not horizontal. The SS on the sniper flag are the same style as the KISS logo (http://www.kissonline.com/)

    I'm willing to chalk this up to ignorance rather than some NeoNazi subculture in the Corps.

    •  Kiss fans? Why didn't WE think of that? nt (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Tennessee Dave, Saint Jimmy

      "Don't drag us down to their level. It's immature". Parahrase of John Lennon. 'A Hard Days Night.'

      by franklyn on Thu Feb 09, 2012 at 09:04:41 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  this thread suggests otherwise: (6+ / 0-)
      •  Fuck me. That puts a nastier light on... (10+ / 0-)

        ...this whole affair.

        Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

        by Meteor Blades on Thu Feb 09, 2012 at 09:12:48 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Not nastier. Just ignorant (0+ / 0-)

          Marines are of a certain mentality that holds reverence for toughest soldiers. They see themselves as the elite, and so they make the leap to the elite of the German Army that was badass they conquered Europe. Most of us would be appalled by that, but most of us are not Marines.

          Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you: Armisticeproject.org

          by FischFry on Thu Feb 09, 2012 at 10:08:21 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  not sure if you meant this, but that's a pretty (0+ / 0-)

            serious indictment of the Marine Corps you just made.

            •  it would (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              jds1978

              probably be lost on most that the German Army of the time in fact was not the SS and there was intense mutual hatred between Army and SS. The SS was a Nazi outfit that came to duplicate and submerge the Army which had been for a while one of the last refuges of antipolitical professionals. It´s not a coincidence that there was organized resistance against the Nazis in the German Army but not in the SS (whose entire raison d´etre was being Nazis). This is a part of the story that unfortunately is missed by just about everyone outside of Germany. So if US Marines look to "professional badass" soldiery to give respect to, its entirely straightforward if they´d include some German Army, but just not the SS. That organization was consciously used to destroy professional soldiery as it were.  

              •  Yup (0+ / 0-)

                The German Heer (reg army) hated the militarized SS.

                The Waffen SS was a way for Hitler to bleed hard core Nazi ideology into the German Army who were deeply conservative (in a good way-they had no stomache for the radical Nazi social engineering project and thought it was at first a political farce...until Hitler fired his generals en masse after the failure to take Moscow in winter 1941)

                Plastic People, Oh Baby Now, Yer sucha Draaaag

                by jds1978 on Fri Feb 10, 2012 at 08:10:28 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

          •  Except for the fact.... (0+ / 0-)

            ....that the Waffen SS was in reality a mixed lot.  Some units (Das Reich, the Herman Goering Division) were the elite troops portrayed in pop media.

            The other 2/3rds were, literally, the dregs of Hitler's conquered Empire ponying up to the new boss by being the willing thugs of the New Order.  These guys were basically there to torture, murder and terrorize.  When they had to actually stand against real soldiers, they fell apart (as thugs and bullies usually do)

            Plastic People, Oh Baby Now, Yer sucha Draaaag

            by jds1978 on Fri Feb 10, 2012 at 08:06:52 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  So they don't need educating, they know exactly (9+ / 0-)

        what it means:

        Your teacher is 100% correct! However, it has been going on since the last years of the Viet Nam war. The "SS" is made in the image of twin lighten bolts. The indiviuals, the scout snipers, do it themselves. The Marine Corps does not condon it. However, the snipers know just what it means, and just the type of response it will receive. Nevertheless, they get it tattooed on their bodies, painted on squad banners,and painted on the walls of bars that they frequent. It is done for the exact "shock value" that was expressed in your post. No one can stop it because,just as I say "colored person" but real mean "N",they use the twin lighten bolts to stand for Nazi terror, but say it merely stands for "scout/sniper". You must understand that only within the last 8 to 10 years were the snipers treated with respect. They were always treated as outcasts and killers. In Viet Nam, they were nick named "Murder,Inc." Therefore, it is payback for all of the decades in which they received treatment as "outsider" by their own fellow Marines. So be shocked, it's exactly what it is designed to do!
        I'm stunned.
      •  "...those Marine Scout Snipers are w/o a doubt (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        peptabysmal, basquebob, Alexandre

        some the best in the US military and they are defending my freedom so it may make me a lil uncomfortable but I dont care their keeping me free. I can't thank them enough!!"

        Why do I get the feeling that's exactly what the good folks of Germany said back then about the SS?

        "Don't drag us down to their level. It's immature". Parahrase of John Lennon. 'A Hard Days Night.'

        by franklyn on Thu Feb 09, 2012 at 09:23:15 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Maybe I just listened to too much rock in the 80s, (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      kyril

      but that's what I saw. When I heard the reporter say "Nazi," I had to look again.

      Did someone say this dates back to the 1980s? The timing makes sense.

      I read today that when KISS toured Germany, they reversed the s's to avoid the appearance of a swastika. Did I know that? Nope.

      I guess it's really easy to assume the worst in people. But honestly, I don't think any of these guys are sympathetic to Nazism. I think they are naive and they made bad decisions. Of course, Nazism destroyed almost an entire generation of Jews (and others). But guys like this -- in fact, some of them were likely some of these guys' grandfathers -- fought the Nazis. The flag is abhorrent, but there is no evidence that these men are Nazis.

      And for the record, there's a difference between posing in front of a flag that's been in the unit for years and urinated on the body of a human being that you just killed. Anyone who doesn't see that, well, I don't know what to say.

      © grover


      So if you get hit by a bus tonight, would you be satisfied with how you spent today, your last day on earth? Live like tomorrow is never guaranteed, because it's not. -- Me.

      by grover on Thu Feb 09, 2012 at 09:22:11 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  grover--see the link I posted above.... (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        commonmass, GrumpyOldGeek, mrsgoo

        they may not be sympathetic to Nazism, but it's likely that several of them know the origin of the logo and don't particularly give a shit--because it makes them more 'bad-ass'.

        •  I guess. (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          mrsgoo, OLinda, kyril

          But I think it's incongruous that as a country, we want people to look through a scope all day long and kill another human with literally a hair trigger, then we get offended that they think of themselves as "bad ass."

          Snipers are supposed to be among the elite. They're supposed to be more mature and more capable of handling whatever war throws their way.

          But they're also young men whose prefrontal cortices are still finishing up developing. They're away from home, usually for the first time. Most of those guys in that photo look like they're just kids -- kids raised in a culture that glamorizes violence.

          I have to be honest. I think all of this is a bit much. Those young men are a product of our education system, our culture of violence, a system (which includes an economic system where parents work like dogs to keep a roof over their heads) where kids tend to play video games too often for their own good, and our rah-rah pro-war political system that sends kids in battle where they're watching civilians live life through a scope.

          If you haven't read this article, you should: http://www.esquire.com/...

          Every American needs to read that article.

          We can blame the individuals. Or we can take a long hard look in the mirror.

          © grover


          So if you get hit by a bus tonight, would you be satisfied with how you spent today, your last day on earth? Live like tomorrow is never guaranteed, because it's not. -- Me.

          by grover on Thu Feb 09, 2012 at 09:59:54 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  We train them to kill. And I agree with this... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Caipirinha
            We can blame the individuals. Or we can take a long hard look in the mirror.
            But there is no excuse for appropriating a symbol that is universially recognized for genocide and hate of the most awful magnitude known.

            "We're here to start a dialog, nothing more. We keep quiet and let the press, the politicians, and the Wall Streeters hang themselves." h/t .- pistols at dawn. I'm a Sacramento/San Joaquin Kossack. Are You?

            by mrsgoo on Thu Feb 09, 2012 at 10:16:25 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

  •  Leaked opening words of Mitt Romney's (12+ / 0-)

    speech to CPAC tomorrow night:

    Je suis plus conservative que vous, mon petites fromages!

    "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

    by kovie on Thu Feb 09, 2012 at 09:01:17 PM PST

  •  Iran Iran Iran (10+ / 0-)

    This is an open thread, so I am going to bring up the three hundred pound elephant in the room that no one is talking about, at least not here.

    With reports of Iran threatening to shut down the straights and Israel suggesting attacks, it would seem that the issue deserves at least a few pixels.

    Reuters has an article...

    PARIS/TEHRAN (Reuters) - Iran is turning to barter - offering gold bullion in overseas vaults or tankerloads of oil - in return for food as new financial sanctions have hurt its ability to import basic staples for its 74 million people, commodities traders said Thursday.
    So, the sanctions are causing hardships and elections are just around the corner.
    Iranian officials deny that sanctions are having a serious economic impact, while also saying that their people are willing to endure any hardship in support of the country's sovereign right to nuclear technology.
    Officials in Israel, Iran's arch foe, openly say time is running out for air strikes to destroy the nuclear program if sanctions do not persuade Tehran to back down.
    Iran's parliamentary election on March 2 will be its first vote since a presidential vote in 2009, when Ahmadinejad's disputed re-election against a reformist opponent triggered eight months of violent street demonstrations.
    The Iranian government successfully put that uprising down by force, but since then the "Arab Spring" has revealed the vulnerability of authoritarian states in the region to popular anger fuelled by economic hardship.
    Reformists are barely represented in next month's election, having been barred from standing or declaring boycotts. The vote will be hotly contested between Ahmadinejad's supporters and conservative opponents who blame him for economic disarray.
    Children of Iranian opposition leaders called on the international community to help their voices reach the rest of the world, opposition leader Mirhossein Mousavi's website Kaleme reported Wednesday.
    Reformists are planning a rally next week, which could be a rare test of whether the soaring food prices are increasing anger on the streets.
    I probalbly quote too much there, so here is another link to Reuters article Iran turns to barter for food as sanctions cripple importsBy Valerie Parent and Parisa Hafezi | Reuters

    But one last quote.

    Rahul Khullar, trade secretary of India, one of Iran's main trade partners, said: "If the EU and the U.S. both want to stop exports to that country, please tell me why I should follow suit? Why shouldn't I take up that business opportunity?"
    So here is the deal. If the sanctions work, we avoid an armed conflict with Iran, whether it is us or Israel, or some one else. Obama's moves have made it too expensive to do business with Iran, and I think they will work. But India is willing to defy the international will if they can make a profit. (Not that anyone else wouldn't defy them too if they could make a profit, but they can't.)

    Oh, one last quoted (just read the whole article for crying out loud), because it will tell us a lot about the Republicans.

    Iran faces a bigger challenge if U.S. lawmakers pass sanctions on its main tanker group, the privately run National Iranian Tanker Company (NITC) with a fleet of 40 tankers, or on the state-owned National Iranian Oil Company.
    If Obama can pull off dissuading Iran from seeking a nuclear bomb without a military action, it will be, in my opinion, the single biggest accomplishment of his administration.

    We need to talk about this folks.

    It is possible to read the history of this country as one long struggle to extend the liberties established in our Constitution to everyone in America. - Molly Ivins

    by se portland on Thu Feb 09, 2012 at 09:10:41 PM PST

    •  We do need to talk about Iran. (7+ / 0-)

      We should start by talking about the simple fact that there is no crebible evidence Iran is currently seeking a nuclear weapon.

      Then we should talk about the fact that there is no credible evidence any enriched uranium has ever been diverted.

      After that, maybe we can have an honest discussion about what's so great about besieging a nation and trying to make its people so desperate with hunger that they'll do what our leaders want them too.

      Maybe we can limit that discussion to people who actually paid attention to what we did to Iraq in the 90's.

      It's not our duty as a nation to abuse civilians so that batshit crazy right-wing extremists in Israel might refrain from bombing them.

      Just do me a favor. Before talking about "International Will", show us a vote by the GA supporting the siege you're currently boosting.

      Then tell me how Obama is "avoiding war" by continuing this same idiotic tactic against the people of Cuba.

      Fear is your only God.

      by JesseCW on Thu Feb 09, 2012 at 10:03:35 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  You're right (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      se portland
      If Obama can pull off dissuading Iran from seeking a nuclear bomb without a military action, it will be, in my opinion, the single biggest accomplishment of his administration.
      Unfortunately, I don't think that's bloody likely. I think we've got a better chance of a new Iranian revolution.

      Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you: Armisticeproject.org

      by FischFry on Thu Feb 09, 2012 at 10:13:01 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  A new Iranian Revolution isn't going (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        kyril, se portland

        to end Irans enrichment program.

        They're not going to agree to let their reactors be held hostage to the whims of foreign nations that might deny them fuel.

        Nuclear Power is an idiotic venture for a great many reasons, but it takes either a special kind of stupid or a willfull intent to destroy your own energy security to build reactors but rely on someone else for fuel.

        Fear is your only God.

        by JesseCW on Thu Feb 09, 2012 at 10:49:11 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  One has nothing to do with the other (0+ / 0-)

          I'm no nuclear engineer or physicist, but I accept expert opinion that Iran's enrichment program is far beyond what would be appropriate for a civilian nuclear reactor. Any Iranian government -- either this one or a new one -- would be allowed to maintain a civilian nuclear energy program, with safeguards that ensured they were not enriching to weapons grade. It's not that they're creating their own fuel -- although that is where this issue began -- it's the level of enrichment. The reason for wanting to supply the fuel is because of the lack of trust, but there are ways around that, if the gov't does want to maintain its own supply.

          Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you: Armisticeproject.org

          by FischFry on Fri Feb 10, 2012 at 10:08:47 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  What expert opinion is this? (0+ / 0-)

            I know a guy who accepts the "expert opinion" that global warming is a hoax.

            Iran has a civilian nuclear program, with safeguards which make sure they're not diverting any enriched uranium.  While the IAEA is pissed that Iran will not sign on to the Additional Protocol, there are no charges that they've diverted any.

            They have allowed the IAEA to monitor all the Uranium they mine, and all the uranium going into and out of all of their operation enrichment facilities.

            They currently aren't making enough to fuel their operational reactors - yet.  So I don't know what you mean by "way beyond".

            They have a research reactor that requires nearly 20% enriched fuel.  They haven't gone beyond that.

            They offered to trade all of their 20% enriched fuel for actual fuel rods they could put in that reactor.  Lula (the President of Brazil at the time) brokered the deal.

            Obama killed it.  You can read about it here -

            http://www.politicaexterna.com/...

            Fear is your only God.

            by JesseCW on Fri Feb 10, 2012 at 08:01:54 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  That's simply not true (0+ / 0-)

              As i said, I'm not expert in the science, but everything I've read ,which is based on what experts are saying, is that what Iran is doing is not what they'd be doing if the process was solely for civilian use. They are at least creating a process or supply that would give them the capability to weaponize the enriched uranium. And, the IAEA has not charged Iran with diverting uranium not because of any certainty that they haven't -- it's because they lack certainty that they have. Iran isn't allowing monitoring of everything. The IAEA knows they aren't seeing everything, but they don't know what they're not seeing. Rumsfeld's "known unknowns" and "unknown unknowns"

              Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you: Armisticeproject.org

              by FischFry on Sat Feb 11, 2012 at 10:07:12 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

  •  A side note about tattoos... (5+ / 0-)

    before you get shit tattooed on yer hide, you sure as fuck better research what that ink will mean once it's embedded in your flesh. Oh, and I'm hosting WYFP this weekend.... or something.

    "Small acts, when multiplied by millions of people, can transform the world." — Howard Zinn

    by blueyedace2 on Thu Feb 09, 2012 at 09:11:19 PM PST

  •  Hmmm (0+ / 0-)

    Fear is your only God.

    by JesseCW on Thu Feb 09, 2012 at 09:13:40 PM PST

  •  Big Ass Pentagon Cuts (10+ / 0-)

    can not come soon enough.

    "Work for something because it is good, not just because it stands a chance to succeed." -- Vaclav Havel

    by greendem on Thu Feb 09, 2012 at 09:20:15 PM PST

  •  coup in the Maldives (8+ / 0-)

    Bill McKibben posted here the other day, but here is a followup from him.

    We've spent the last 36 hours talking with all kinds of our 350.org friends in the Maldives. The situation changes frequently, but its basic outlines are clear: our ally President Nasheed was forced at gunpoint to resign in what seems to be a coup carried out by police forces. Several of his aides and associates have been hospitalized after beatings, and an arrest warrant has been issued for Nasheed -- with one official for the new government promising that he will spend the rest of his life in prison.

    America is so not like her hype.

    by OLinda on Thu Feb 09, 2012 at 09:20:16 PM PST

  •  My first reaction to the SS (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    his panic, kyril

    was that the SS looked like the SS in the KISS band's logo. SS for "Scout Sniper" certainly made sense to me.

    I guess they should have used a different font.

  •  WTF? Waffen-SS? Kinder und Frauen Mörder? (8+ / 0-)

    I hope not. I cannot believe I am seeing this bullshit

    80 % of success is JUST SHOWING UP!

    by Churchill on Thu Feb 09, 2012 at 09:24:26 PM PST

  •  OH fuck. Words fail. Marines you say. wow. (3+ / 0-)

    "We're here to start a dialog, nothing more. We keep quiet and let the press, the politicians, and the Wall Streeters hang themselves." h/t .- pistols at dawn. I'm a Sacramento/San Joaquin Kossack. Are You?

    by mrsgoo on Thu Feb 09, 2012 at 09:24:58 PM PST

  •  coup in the Maldives 2 (6+ / 0-)
    NYTimes opinion - Feb. 8, 2012
    After he was inaugurated, Mr. Nasheed declared that the Maldives was looking for a new homeland for its doomed population, and he later pledged that the country would be the first to become carbon neutral. A former journalist and longtime human rights activist, he viewed the struggle against climate change itself as a fight for human rights.

    [Includes 7 minute video: The Island President Deposed: The filmmaker Jon Shenk presents a portrait of Mohamed Nasheed, the first democratically-elected president of the Maldives and an environmental activist, who was deposed on Feb. 7. (Video also on 350.org.)]

    Op-Ed by the former president NYT
    The Dregs of Dictatorship
    By MOHAMED NASHEED
    Published: February 8, 2012

    ... But the people of those countries should be aware that, long after the revolutions, powerful networks of regime loyalists can remain behind and can attempt to strangle their nascent democracies.

    I learned this lesson quickly. My country, the Maldives, voted out President Maumoon Abdul Gayoom, its iron-fisted ruler, back in 2008, in historic elections that swept away three decades of his authoritarian rule. And yet the dictatorship bequeathed to the infant democracy a looted treasury, a ballooning budget deficit and a rotten judiciary.

    In response to these issues, my government asked the United Nations to help us investigate judicial abuses and ordered the arrest of Abdulla Mohamed, the chief judge of the criminal court, on charges of protecting the former president and corrupting the judicial system. However, in a dramatic turn of events on Tuesday, the former president’s supporters protested in the streets, and police officers and army personnel loyal to the old government mutinied and forced me, at gunpoint, to resign. To avoid bloodshed, I did so. I believe this to be a coup d’état and suspect that my vice president, who has since been sworn into office, helped to plan it.
    ...

    America is so not like her hype.

    by OLinda on Thu Feb 09, 2012 at 09:25:22 PM PST

  •  KISS?! Sounds like something Beck would say? nt (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    commonmass, mrsgoo, Saint Jimmy, basquebob

    "Don't drag us down to their level. It's immature". Parahrase of John Lennon. 'A Hard Days Night.'

    by franklyn on Thu Feb 09, 2012 at 09:25:32 PM PST

  •  The Island President - Trailer (4+ / 0-)

    The Island President - a documentary


    America is so not like her hype.

    by OLinda on Thu Feb 09, 2012 at 09:26:10 PM PST

  •  Teabagger politicians fabricating numbers: (5+ / 0-)
    San Jose Mayor Used Made-Up Figures to Inflate Pension Risk

    In an attempt to whip up antagonism toward firefighters and other public workers, San Jose Mayor Chuck Reed has tossed around a scary estimate of the city's pension obligation -- $650 million.

    Turns out the number was something the city just pulled out of its ... hat.

    In a stunning investigative report, NBC11 in San Jose revealed that the $650 million estimate used to justify a radical pension rollback was just made up by one city official. The actual estimate of the city's expected pension obligation will likely be only about half as much.

    In the report, City Retirement Services Director Russell Crosby admitted that the big scary number used to justify an attack on workers was "a number off the top of my head."

    /snip

    The emails also revealed that when city officials tried to conduct a formal actuarial estimate, they tried to cook the data to make the problem seem worse. Even then, the figure still came out about a quarter billion dollars below the phony estimate.

    http://www.cpf.org/...

    Link to the NBC report: http://www.nbcbayarea.com/...

    How many civil servants across America have been furloughed, laid off, or had their hours or benefits severely cut based on completely fabricated fraudulent data?

    Makes ya wonder...

    © grover


    So if you get hit by a bus tonight, would you be satisfied with how you spent today, your last day on earth? Live like tomorrow is never guaranteed, because it's not. -- Me.

    by grover on Thu Feb 09, 2012 at 09:30:28 PM PST

  •  I looked carefully at the first photo (clicked the (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    KJG52, Eric Nelson

    link so I could see a bigger version) and as far as I can tell, there are no African-Americans in the group, nor Asians. (It's possible that some are Hispanic or American Indian).
    In FY 2008, racial make-up for enlisted members of the Marines was 83.2% white, 11.6% Black, 2.3% Asian.
    http://prhome.defense.gov/...
    so it's entirely possible that it's simply chance that there are no obvious minority members in this group of 10 men.
    However, the absence of any identifiable minority member makes me wonder if this SS flag is an indication of the neo-Nazi movement in the military (as I remember, Timothy McVeigh was influenced by neo-Nazis in the military).

    We're not perfect, but they're nuts! -- Barney Frank

    by Tamar on Thu Feb 09, 2012 at 09:38:10 PM PST

  •  They didn't know a Nazi link, just a racist link (5+ / 0-)

    The Marine Times article seems to condemn the use of the logo because Marines fought and died in battles against Nazis who identified themselves with this symbol.

    The young soldiers probably didn't understand the full meaning of the symbol.

    They apparently didn't realize that Marines died and the symbol disrespects their "ultimate sacrifice" [God, how I detest words that glorify death]

    It wasn't just because it's racist and anti-Semetic and symbolizes white supremecy and neo-Nazis, it's bad because Marines died.

    So the Marine Corps is going to make sure that they educate everyone about the historical meaning of the symbol. Not much said about the current meaning of the symbol.

    It would have been just peachy to use that symbol if Marines hadn't died, apparently.

    Seriously, I think these guys embarrassed the Marine Corps and weren't punished because of the message at all. The remedy seems to amount to "education" about public displays of racial hatred, not about racial hatred itself.

    “We believe that these young men likely did not understand the significance of this symbol, and we call on the Marine Corps to increase education on American history,” he said. “This issue goes beyond one of racism or anti-Semitism. Our fellow Americans fought and died to stop the Nazis, and it is shameful for any member of the military to display the symbols of Nazi Germany.”

    The Corps has addressed the use of the SS logo before, however. A PowerPoint presentation posted on a Marine Corps website said it should not be used in any tattoos. The logo was used by German special police during World War II and is still used by neo-Nazis and graffiti to characterize anti-Semitism, white supremacy and facism, according to the presentation.

    Thank goodness they didn't use the symbol for tattoos. They really would have gotten in trouble for that.

    "All people are born alike - except Republicans and Democrats" - Groucho Marx

    by GrumpyOldGeek on Thu Feb 09, 2012 at 09:47:44 PM PST

    •  That's what I figured. (0+ / 0-)

      I'm sure it was used in US White Power circles and they picked it up, not realizing it was an adaptation of the symbol used by Hitler.

      And the marines are like, it's OK, they were imitating AMERICAN racists!

      If Obama doesn't deserve credit for getting Bin Laden because he didn't pull the trigger, Bin Laden doesn't deserve the blame for 9-11 because he didn't fly the planes.

      by Bush Bites on Fri Feb 10, 2012 at 04:29:49 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  A bit of commentary on the "SS" symbol. (12+ / 0-)

    Now, use of this symbol is against Marine Corps regulations. That much is quite clear. So is the use of gang symbols or Hells Angels tatoos. But yet, the Marine Corps does attract its share of neo-nazis, bloods, crips, gangster disciples, hells angels, MS 13, Latin Kings, and even la cosa nostra. Marines aren't choir boys. Sorry ladies. Most, if not just about all, eventually leave it as youthful indiscretion as they more generally blend in with the MC warrior ethos. Or they get wives, with the Corps encourages.

    It is not a court-martial offense. That is way, way over the top. You can beat the shit out of a civilian and not get court-martial. (trust me..i know). NJP is usually how things like this are handled and that is an appropriate level of punishment. The XO will note such a thing in their record in a way that would almost certainly eliminate promotion but allow for honorable discharge on the next re-up.

    Finally, the use of the SS symbol among snipers is definitely a tribute to the Waffen SS. Has been for a long time. It isn't that any of the guys who use it are Nazis or even mildly racist. Well, some are. Ive seen black and puerto rican guys under flags like that. But there is definitely an ethos of tribute to the Waffen SS's noted fierceness and discipline in battle. Almost all American troops who encountered the Waffen SS in combat, including the famed 101st airborne, and others, noted that it was the most tenacious and fearless of any division of the Wermacht. There is lot more of that sort of thinking than there is Nazism.

    Just thought I'd add a bit of perspective.

    •  Schutzstaffel (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      commonmass, JesseCW, Saint Jimmy, jayden

      From Wikipedia

      They know exactly what it means.

    •  Oh yeah one more thing... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      kyril

      As I recall, the Waffen SS was also rather distinct from the regular German Army in that non-nordics were allowed to join it. That is, excepting the Liebstandarte Adolf Hitler, which was one regiment that only allowed nordics. By the time the war was over, over 50% of the Waffen-SS wasn't even German.

      •  Sweetie, you are theoretically correct (0+ / 0-)

        in your assumption, that doesn't mean that every soldier in the German Wehrmacht wasn't a Nazi, nor does it prove that their weren't men in the Waffen SS, who woke up during the latest years of the war and were deeply disturbed of what they had gotten themselves into.

        I must say I don't understand your last sentence. If 50% iof the Waffen-SS wasn't German, what were they, in your opinion? Can you clarify?

      •  While that is true, the Waffen-SS was only (0+ / 0-)

        a part of the SS organization. The Einsatzgruppen also used the stylized SS runes.

        The runes were used throughout the organization.

    •  this post makes a lot of sense. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      kyril, CapitolDragoon

      Thanks for not blindly convicting or excusing these guys.

    •  Definitely agree this is not a court martial issue (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      kyril, CapitolDragoon

      And most certainly, not for the enlisted men!  This idea that the solution to everything is to put 'em on trial and hang 'em high would be ridiculous if it hadn't led to the US having the highest incarceration rate and one of the highest execution rates on the planet.  (Sadly, our good buddy Iraq is now catching up, having executed 65 people in the first 40 days of the year, for crimes such as damaging public property.  Thus eliminating the very last possible reason for throwing out Saddam Hussein, specifically that he killed a lot of his own people.  Well, maybe so but then again apparently now the guys we installed are determined to be just as murderous.)

    •  German military is in Afghanistan these days (0+ / 0-)

      what would you say if German soldiers displayed their weapons on a photo with the Waffen SS symbol on it or having a Waffen SS emblem either tattooed on their bodies or painted on their clothes?

      Just ignorant, just dumb gang symbols, some German gang members and kids, who love to be badass kickass with the power of the weapon to prove how much they are just that ? Just watching like punk gangs scare people in German trains for their display of violent behaviour?

      What do you think young German men who joined the SS in the nineteen thirties were? You are not born a nazi, you are seduced into the underlying ideology. Symbols have meaning. You display them on purpose, not because you are ignorant of their meaning.

      What puzzles me most in the response to this diary is that mostly people don't understand that you can't out-educate the "supremacist coolness" out of those, who need just those symbols to feel good about themselves.

      Replace the word "supremacist" with "exceptionalist" (as in American exceptionalism) and you might see a foggy haunting relationship in those words.  

      And it's absolutely ridiculous to say that those who use that symbol don't know who made those symbols famous.

      They also don't understand the meaning of the Hitler moustache they paint on Obama's face on the tea parties rallies's signs, right? Who knew that the moustache had anything to do with Hitler? Hey, never seen that, who else had such moustaches? I am sure some peace-loving famous people around the world had them too, no need to get upset.

      I mean why don't they just allow the display of the swastica in the American marine forces?  Oh, that is a violation of freedom of speech? Outlawing the symbols of Hitler's regime in Germany, that is just soo authoriarian, I heard many an American saying.

      I am just amazed how many other things you can outlaw in any military of the world, just using the SS symbols doesn't seem worth deserving inclusion.

      •  I don't understand what you're talking about. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        mimi

        I said very clearly this is against regulation. Punishment will be meted out appropriately and thats what ought to be done. Some of these guys will get time in the brig or other punishments. These guys will not get promoted. Not getting promoted is a very clear message: when you're contract is up, get out. I mean, what do you want to do: court-martial them and put them in Ft. Leavenworth, ruin any chance they'll ever have of getting a decent job, destroy whatever family they are trying to build, ignore anything else on their record? All because they took a picture under an SS flag? You've got to be kidding.

        Second, as my post makes clear, I'm saying that these guys don't understand what the SS symbol is. They know what it is.

        •  I didn't mean to answer to your comment directly (0+ / 0-)

          was just upset because many comments sounded to me a way to excuse those guys. If it was against regulations, then how come the military couldn't enforce them?

          Finally, the use of the SS symbol among snipers is definitely a tribute to the Waffen SS. Has been for a long time. It isn't that any of the guys who use it are Nazis or even mildly racist.
          Well, my English isn't that good, may be I misunderstand lots of stuff. But your sentence in the blockquote makes me wonder. I would say any somewhat sane German these days would consider those young Germans, who use a WaffenSS symbol in public to promote their group, as at least racist. Sorry for that. I am not American. You tell me those people are not racists? Well, I am sleeping over it. May then I believe it.

          Anyhow, I am too tired to discuss this. Sorry to have vented my feelings.

  •  Horrible choice. (7+ / 0-)

    Mean to tell us that they don't know what that symbolizes? We don't even give basic military history lessons to our troops? None of those scout snipers had any interest in WWII's European theatre? Thats scary in and of itself.

    Who cares if KISS uses something similar. KISS has nothing to do with the military. When anyone sees SS in a military context, they will think of the Schutzstaffel.

    I don't know how it should be handled, but something should be done beyond just ending its use.

    After the evil perpetrated by the Nazi's, I for one am not comfortable with any attempt at "reclaiming" any of their symbols for a long, long time.

  •  not defending it at all (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    kyril

    but folks have to realize that court-martial is the equivalent of a federal conviction, often felony conviction. That seems a bit steep for this.

    Heck, kicking them out administratively is more appropriate then a federal conviction.

  •  There's Plenty Of REAL Military White Supremacists (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Bush Bites, kyril

    but if the snipers aren't sporting the usual white power tattoos (often in code or symbols that are easily spotted if you know what they are), then the military should probably be looking elsewhere for real white supremacists.

    There’s always free cheddar in a mousetrap, baby

    by bernardpliers on Thu Feb 09, 2012 at 09:55:07 PM PST

  •  Air Force Airlines - How the (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    commonmass, OLinda

    administration VIPs get around. Vid and slide show. Fun stuff...

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...

    When someone is impatient and says, "I haven't got all day," I always wonder, How can that be? How can you not have all day? George Carlin

    by msmacgyver on Thu Feb 09, 2012 at 09:58:58 PM PST

  •  tweet of the day (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jayden

    Right on, Jennifer.

    America is so not like her hype.

    by OLinda on Thu Feb 09, 2012 at 10:53:33 PM PST

  •  Too much testosterone and the glorification of (5+ / 0-)

    killing leads inevitably to dehumanization and what better insignia for killers than the twin lightening bolts of the Schuetzstaffel. The Marine Corps makes hard men, war makes them harder, this photo shouldn't surprise anyone, in a culture of violence, the most violent are lauded and supported. This nation has been at war for ten years, a war of choice, the militarization of this country, the fetishization of "service," has created a generation of people inured to violence or broken by it. This picture, like all the other pictures, Abu Ghraib, Falluja, "Shock and Awe", are war, pissing on corpses,  burning out villages, killing civilians, brutality, criminality, murder, rape, and suicide are all part of what happens in war.

    These men are not "kids" and they never will be, they are soldiers in combat and soldiers in combat take their pride from being hard-asses and their group identity. These men are professional soldiers, even if they didn't know what that meant when they signed up, that means they kill for a living and survive only if they are well trained, have good unit leadership and are lucky.

    I don't condone this image or the glorification of the SS apparent in the choice of unit symbol; however, when you teach men to kill and then send them into never ending war, this result is not surprising to me.

    The whole idea of a "professional all volunteer force" is anathema to me, losing the "citizen soldier" was a mistake, setting these people off as seperate in a closed society with its own rules and culture is wrong. Alienation is inevitable and I fear that we have created a new class of citizen in this country, those who stay in and live apart under authoritarian rule with more loyalty to their institution than the people they supposedly serve, and those who get out into a culture that neither understands or cares for them, resulting in both cases in alienation, anxiety and distrust of civilian institutions.

    I believe that this generation of war is sowing the whirwind for this nation and generating a new Praetorian Guard, which if history tells us anything is the seed of destruction for any Republic.  

    "Intelligence is quickness in seeing things as they are..." George Santayana

    by KJG52 on Thu Feb 09, 2012 at 11:09:50 PM PST

  •  I'm not sure why Dems are even entertaining (0+ / 0-)

    the contraception debate, when there are so many other equally important topics that also need to be debated, like whether automobiles actually need brakes, for example.  

  •  The U.S. military has substituted (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jayden

    obedience for morality.  The culture of obedience provides a blank check to its followers.  There are no negative consequences for misbehavior as long as the person is obedient to a superior.  We see the same pattern in some of our stateside law enforcement agents.

    People to Wall Street: "LET OUR MONEY GO"

    by hannah on Fri Feb 10, 2012 at 12:12:14 AM PST

  •  I have heard people claim (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jayden

    that the SS symbol there stands for Scout Snipers or whatever. I understand that now but it still seems a bit ... err well not very bright. The swastika is actually a buddhist symbol I think but still no buddhist monks will be walking around with swastika flags. Even if that is what it stands for I can't believe they would be that ignorant to actually put it there up with the US flag no less.

    On the plains of hesitation lie the blackened bones of countless millions who at the dawn of victory lay down to rest, and in resting died. -- Adlai Stevenson

    by Ghost of NY on Fri Feb 10, 2012 at 12:32:02 AM PST

  •  BREAKING: NEW pic of Nazi Symbol! Outrage reaches (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    kyril

    fever pitch!

  •  We have no right to cast blame (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Tommy Allen

    as long as ‘our’ party continues to protect high-level war criminals. Kids learn they can be rewarded for less-than-human behavior when we let their heroes (i.e. Bush and Cheney) off the hook for war crimes and reward their sponsors (war-profiteers etc.) in the process.  We’re setting this example for them.
    We can’t blame them.

  •  Regarding the snipers (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    OLinda

    Our military has been ignoring their own regulations about admitting white supremacists into the ranks... Salon did a story about it in 2009.

    Neo-Nazis are in the Army now

    From the Salon article, there is this:

    In fact, since the movement’s inception, its leaders have encouraged members to enlist in the U.S. military as a way to receive state-of-the-art combat training, courtesy of the U.S. taxpayer, in preparation for a domestic race war. The concept of a race war is central to extremist groups, whose adherents imagine an eruption of violence that pits races against each other and the government.

    "Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell." ~ Edward Abby

    by SaraBeth on Fri Feb 10, 2012 at 02:33:12 AM PST

  •  let us be honest; racism is a problem in our (0+ / 0-)

    armed forces.  In VN some of the guys from southern states took a great pleasure in displaying what is commonly called the confederate battle flag.  It has become more evident in recent years as WP groups encourag4d their members to enlist and to receive as much specialized training as possible and to then return to train their fellows in such skills
    http://www.thepeoplesvoice.org/...
    http://www.adl.org/...
    http://www.splcenter.org/...
    http://www.democraticunderground.com/...
     http://spitfirelist.com/...
    http://www.myleftwing.com/...

  •  Re: (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Leo Flinnwood, hester
    The two Marines in that photo were with the scout sniper platoon of the 1st Battalion, 7th Marines at Twentynine Palms, Calif.
    Having grown up in Twentynine Palms, I was completely unsurprised to hear this.

    One of the many, many, many reasons I will never go back is the strong neo-Nazi and KKK presence there.

    Are you on the Wreck List? Horde on Garrosh.

    by Moody Loner on Fri Feb 10, 2012 at 03:34:02 AM PST

  •  This SS thing falls into the wide but nevertheless (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jayden

    ....widely reviled category of "bad things you can do once without punishment because you have a credible, if tenuous, claim of ignorance."  

    Seen anther way, as progressives we recognize that war brutalizes people.  So we shouldn't claim utter shock and surprise when it brutalizes people.

    But nobody's buying flowers from the flower lady.

    by Rich in PA on Fri Feb 10, 2012 at 03:37:17 AM PST

  •  On my Marines- the problem..... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    kyril

    When I was in boot camp, god that sucked, I recall meeting people from all over. I felt then like I do now - our education system is in need of SYSTEMIC change.
    Teachers work HARD. I'll say 92% are good, craving to be great. They will never achieve greatness, not because of a lack of desire or ethic, but because of the failures of the SYSTEM.
    I will return to this
    THAT BEING SAID - these men are YOUNG, obviously all under 25. I have met guys their age to 30 who have never heard of George Orwell, never read 1984 in school or Animal Farm for that matter. History , is often learned later in life. THATS THE PROBLEM.
    I don't think the SS symbol is the issue, I believe it calls out our education SYSTEM. How can our most well trained men not realize the significance of this symbol ? They were tested in school , tested to the 9's. We have a system that has been studied and our kids are the most TESTED and LEAST examined kids in the industrialized world. Wait, Developed Nations. This picture may not offend anyone 30 and under, AND IT IS NOT THEIR FAULT.
    Fixing education is the battle cry of this photo.
    Teaching Enlisted Military US History or even World History means 1% of our youth will have a grasp on history, well, 2%. The rich kids are taught everything, those of us who hear the calling of service would then know-which leaves 98% of the population still wouldn't know or give 2 shits what that symbol means.

    you can't remain neutral on a moving train

    by rmfcjr on Fri Feb 10, 2012 at 04:04:15 AM PST

  •  The SS Flag is Just a Coincidence (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    OldDragon

    The official Marines response to the SS flag appearing in published photos is that it's somehow just a coincidence that the logo is identical to the Nazi symbol. Nobody in the Marines knew the "historical significance" of the logo.

    Who exactly designed that flag for these Marines? How could they possibly have looked at an image of it and not noticed it was attached to a Nazi? It's impossible.

    The Marines and the Pentagon are lying. They know it's neonazis in the Marines.

    Those are our Marines. We must have the truth. And we must use it to get the neonazis out of the Marines. And we must use it to get the neonazi sympathizers out of the military offices that are lying to us about it.

    "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

    by DocGonzo on Fri Feb 10, 2012 at 04:21:15 AM PST

    •  Probably some kind of White Power symbol... (0+ / 0-)

      ...adapted from the SS logo.

      It's fine: They were glorifying American racists!

      If Obama doesn't deserve credit for getting Bin Laden because he didn't pull the trigger, Bin Laden doesn't deserve the blame for 9-11 because he didn't fly the planes.

      by Bush Bites on Fri Feb 10, 2012 at 04:26:39 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  No parade for you! (0+ / 0-)

    If Obama doesn't deserve credit for getting Bin Laden because he didn't pull the trigger, Bin Laden doesn't deserve the blame for 9-11 because he didn't fly the planes.

    by Bush Bites on Fri Feb 10, 2012 at 04:25:19 AM PST

  •  It's just white guys killing Arabs (0+ / 0-)

    I'm sure it's just a coincidence that these snipers, who shoot dusky Afghans in a Global War on Terror, idolize the SS, who shot Jews in a World War.  It's not like there's any parallel, is there?  It's not like we're the bad guys now, is it?

    Is it?

    A new year, a time for many changes. Some we will like, some we won't.

    by Tommy Allen on Fri Feb 10, 2012 at 04:50:47 AM PST

  •  Acht (0+ / 0-)

    This reminds me of the injunction of Colonel Kurtz in Apocalypse Now:  "They teach soldiers to drop fire on people but they won't let them write 'fuck' on their airplanes because it's obscene."

    This aggression will not stand, man.

    by kaleidescope on Fri Feb 10, 2012 at 05:20:02 AM PST

  •  The Confederate Flag is still common in US units (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jayden

    I don't minimize the role of the SS in the holocaust, etc., or its offensiveness in this context, I merely point out that's Germany's history, and not ours. As such the misappropriation of the symbol by extremely young men who probably have gotten the typically lousy US education in world history is more likely to show ignorance than intentional callouts to Nazi ideology.

    On the other hand, the stars-and-bars, aka the flag of treason, the flag of the Confederacy, representing the fight to save slavery, can be found on personal gear and many informal unit displays throughout the US military. I find this even more appalling than the SS flag -- since, after all, the flag represents rebellion against the US Constitution, the rule of law, human rights, and was explicitly the banner of many who violated their oaths and became enemies of the United States.

    Some people are intolerant, and I CAN'T STAND people like that. -- Tom Lehrer

    by TheCrank on Fri Feb 10, 2012 at 06:40:36 AM PST

  •  SS tattoos, and branding (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jayden

    I live near the Marine Corp Camp Pendleton. I have seen the SS insignia tattooed, and more often branded on young men. This has been since at least ten years ago.
    On day fishing, a young marine took his shirt off exposing a SS branding. There were several WWII vets on-board who took offense, and told him that they wanted his shirt back on his back.

  •  When Are Those Guys Coming Home To (0+ / 0-)
  •  It's the Kiss Army! (0+ / 0-)

    Because we all know that the "SS" could never be for "Scout Sniper." It's all about those evil war mongering baby raping Marines loving the Nazis!

    Right, "Meteor?"

  •  We in the Navy always thought the Marines were a (0+ / 0-)

    lame bunch and now they prove it time after time.

    Just as prostitution is the world's oldest profession, religion is the world's oldest scam.

    by Agent420 on Fri Feb 10, 2012 at 12:43:01 PM PST

  •  Thanks MB rec'ed (0+ / 0-)

    The radical Republican party is the party of oppression, fear, loathing and above all more money and power for the people who robbed us.

    by a2nite on Sat Feb 11, 2012 at 10:07:03 AM PST

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