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The thoughts of your ordinary ammo salesman.

For an extended introduction read my first Ammo Tale concerning my impression of the Ammo shortage of 2009-10 which grew from fear about President Obama's election.

----------------
Peer pressure influences so much in life, yet it never occurred to me before today that peer pressure might also be influencing Americans toward gun use.  Today I sold ammo to two nice young women who each bought 100 rounds of .38 special hand gun ammo.  I'm a curious person by nature who likes to randomly play the social scientist so I asked the girls where they were going to shoot.  They replied they'd be getting their concealed carry permits on the morrow.  I'd had that answer many times, but today for the first time I asked them "why?" were they getting their concealed carry permits.

They both said so they could mainly keep a loaded gun in their car.  Nothing insane about that I guess.  Personal safety is the trope I hear every day from my customers.  One of the ladies had grown up on a farm and loved shooting.  I wasn't shocked by her answer, I have tons of customers who just love shooting and the concealed carry permit is a natural outlet of that excitement.  I fear the desire for concealed weapons is an outgrowth of too many action movies about quick draw dead eyes shooting bank robbers and murderers from the hip.  But whatever.  If you're not harming anyone then go ahead and practice your 2nd Amendment rights.  You're keeping me in a job.

But the discussion veered quickly when the other lady announced (and I'm paraphrasing but you get the basic conversation): "yeah my family is insane about guns and my husband wants me to be safe."  Now this left me dumbfounded.  I didn't want to intrude and I didn't want what was light banter while I processed the transaction to become some intrusion into personal history.  Still I wondered how much the lady actually wanted to carry a gun and how much she was being pressured to have a gun by her husband, an extension of his fear and worry about personal safety projected onto her.

So I instead followed up on the comment about the ladies' family being gun crazy.  Multiple guns in the house, tons of ammo but that they practiced gun safety.  She even said her kids (ages 2 and 4, not certain of gender) received BB guns for Christmas.  Luckily the guns were going in the closet for a couple of years (hopefully more than a couple! I thought) still I couldn't help but have a mental image develop in my mind which begged the question: does peer pressure influence and promulgate gun culture?

From hundreds of conversations with ammo buyers I know there is a certain amount of "keeping up with the Joneses" in gun culture.  Someone's friend gets a .45, that guy gets a .45.  Someone gets an AR-15, that guy gets an AR-15.  My buddy has 10,000 rounds.  I'm getting 15,000.  No different than the other material contests for superiority that are a part of life for many people.  I call that subtle peer pressure; the basic desire to shoot and own guns exists but is exacerbated by a persons' own desire to outdo others in acquiring the coolest, most, and best guns.

But I suspect there is a more subtle pressure exerted upon some people.  Some people like to shoot and some don't.  Maybe they don't like the concussion or noise.  Maybe it's scary.  Maybe it's just boring and pointless to them.  Still there are others who like shooting well enough but think guns should be kept apart from everyday life.  An activity for the weekend rather than a lifestyle necessity.  I suspect there are a few people who are subtly forced to go along with more gun usage than they'd like because of a family member or friend who is very passionate about gun rights and gun usage.

The most obvious examples I see in modern society are the families of preppers on television shows like Doomsday Bunkers and Doomsday Preppers.  These shows usually have a "uber-Prepper" who takes it very seriously and a family that is somewhat less enthusiastic about it (although they might well be interested, it seems clear to me from body language and facial expressions that the kids and spouse are somewhat bored at times).  Something I notice, in addition to the Prepper radically changing the lifestyle of the family, on these shows is often mandatory gun training of the spouse and kids (even small kids around the age of 7-10).  There certainly is no "hey Tim wanna go out in the yard and shoot the .22?" to some of these lead Preppers.  It's often a no discussion "my kids must learn to protect themselves when  [blank disaster] happens" decision made without any input from the kids.

Now that is an extreme example from the far end of the spectrum of gun culture, but I wonder how much more subtle pressure is being exerted out there on kids, friends, and family members to "go shoot".  Since guns are so prevalent in American culture I know that society itself does much to press people towards gun usage, and not without good reason sometimes.  Shooting is fun for some and guns are a symbol of freedom as well as individuality.  I can even make that statement that "I like shooting" when it comes to small caliber rifles.  But I wonder for how many, including kids, it isn't fun and is just keeping up with the Joneses.  

I wondered it about the lady today.  I also wished her well and good luck on her test.  Another safe user I hope.

6:50 PM PT: Cool "Community Spotlight List"!  Thanks for the comments everyone.  I just got the chance to get back to this diary after being away from computer all day.

Originally posted to HistoryCARD on Sat Mar 10, 2012 at 08:28 AM PST.

Also republished by Community Spotlight.

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Comment Preferences

  •  I think the issue you talk about is the same (13+ / 0-)

    with many interests, politics, historic reenactment, race car driving, mountain bike competitions, whatever.

    Just because one parent is into something the whole family is forced to go along. I try to give my kids and spouse a take it or leave it option, and even if they opt in for the day I realize things can get boring. Some activities I'm not into but I go and do them anyway because my spouse or kids like it.

    The state I live in has very liberal conceal carry laws and a lot of people get a license, but everyone I know who has one doesn't carry. Too much hassel. I think if people get into guns and buy them because of peer persure it's ok as long as they don't misuse them, collect dust somewhere and support the economy.

    BB if you are reading this, I dug deep and ordered the reload kit yesterday from midway. yahoo.

    "Slip now and you'll fall the rest of your life" Derek Hersey 1957-1993

    by ban nock on Sat Mar 10, 2012 at 08:41:47 AM PST

    •  good show, did you go RCBS or Lee? As a reloader (9+ / 0-)

      I more often find my friends asking me to go shooting because they know I have ammunition and we don't have to go see you (the diarist)

      I'm working on some light bullet 30-06 now Ban Nock, 130g Speer jacketed hollows that should be coyote monsters even up to our little desert deer....nothing too big though, thin jacket and high velocities make for huge shallow wounds....

      Little critter though and it should expend all it's energy in the basket.........no exit I'd bet though so good shot first time......

      Vaya con Dios Don Alejo
      I want to die a slave to principles. Not to men.
      Emiliano Zapata

      by buddabelly on Sat Mar 10, 2012 at 08:49:55 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Lee here (5+ / 0-)

        http://www.midwayusa.com/...

        I'm probably going to start with something cheap and light with about the same trajectory as a hunting 180 grain might have so I can work on marksmanship with something other than rim fire, and develop a sense for bullet drop by looking. Might be able to use little powder and a light cheap bullet.

        Soon the range opens up once a month at 100 yards but it's an hour and a half to the national grasslands where I can shoot to 2, 3, and 400.

        For now it's the Red Rider into the coffee can out back.

        "Slip now and you'll fall the rest of your life" Derek Hersey 1957-1993

        by ban nock on Sat Mar 10, 2012 at 09:25:21 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  For just practice trigger time I use a cast bullet (4+ / 0-)

          gas cked at about 16-1700fps...

          There's a powder called 2400 that works very well for reduced loads in the big cases  A lot of the milsurp competition shooters use 16g behind a lead bullet anywhere from 150 to 185g very accurate out to 200 using your 600 yard sight dope.......

          Just for the record, no load data listed is to be used without first consulting a reputable loading manual........What might be fine in my gun might not be in yours.....

          Vaya con Dios Don Alejo
          I want to die a slave to principles. Not to men.
          Emiliano Zapata

          by buddabelly on Sat Mar 10, 2012 at 09:35:29 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  That's a good kit and you'll use that press (4+ / 0-)

          forever even after you've graduated to a progressive or a turret as there's always a need for a single stage and that's a decent one.

          There'll be a few small things you need still like the trim kit for 06 about 5 bucks but overall it's a good starter set that will last you a lifetime .......

          Vaya con Dios Don Alejo
          I want to die a slave to principles. Not to men.
          Emiliano Zapata

          by buddabelly on Sat Mar 10, 2012 at 10:20:54 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  ck your kosmail....... (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          theatre goon, ban nock, KVoimakas

          Vaya con Dios Don Alejo
          I want to die a slave to principles. Not to men.
          Emiliano Zapata

          by buddabelly on Sat Mar 10, 2012 at 11:11:26 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  I'll kosmail you a few links to good reputable (6+ / 0-)

      sites for reloading info, problems, data, etc.....

      Get a few manuals and read them thoroughly before you touch the powder.....and of course either email or kosmail me if you have any questions.....

      Safety first always.....

      Vaya con Dios Don Alejo
      I want to die a slave to principles. Not to men.
      Emiliano Zapata

      by buddabelly on Sat Mar 10, 2012 at 08:53:39 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I thought I could just fill up the casing with (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        buddabelly, theatre goon, KVoimakas, rb608

        powder, put a bullet and primer in and good to go?

        he he, just kidding, don't have a cow yet ;-)

        "Slip now and you'll fall the rest of your life" Derek Hersey 1957-1993

        by ban nock on Sat Mar 10, 2012 at 09:10:25 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  actually, with at least one powder I know of you (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          ban nock, theatre goon, KVoimakas

          can do just that, ...H4895 in the 06 just dip it, shake out a tich of excess and cram a bullet in compressing the load....However I don't rec this until TEOTWAWKI and your scale is broken........

          Trail Boss too but no compression, full to the bottom of the bullet with any round, any bullet and you'll be in safe pressure ranges....It was designed for Cowboy Action shooters but Hodgedon has a formula to use it in any round from 223 to 600 Nitro Express and up.....You can not safely compress it though, break up the little cheerios and you get wild and unpredictable pressure spikes which is a very bad thing......

          Vaya con Dios Don Alejo
          I want to die a slave to principles. Not to men.
          Emiliano Zapata

          by buddabelly on Sat Mar 10, 2012 at 09:27:39 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  heh like I said, ck the manuals frequently, I was (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          annieli, ban nock, KVoimakas

          thinking of .308 with H4895 though there are compressed loads with other powders for the 06.

          I use this Hodgdon online Manual all the time for load data as it's faster than digging through my books but I always end up with them open on the bench anyway......

          Just click through to the online manual and accept the release of liability and you have load data for almost anything in all different combinations.  It's a good one but all the powder companies have something similar online....

          Hodgdon's is just the best working one and I use mainly their powder.

          Vaya con Dios Don Alejo
          I want to die a slave to principles. Not to men.
          Emiliano Zapata

          by buddabelly on Sat Mar 10, 2012 at 01:10:08 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  My Thought On Conceal Carry. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      panmandan, HistoryCARD, rb608

      Why report yourself and your personal details to the government as an owner of a firearm? Why tell the government what weapons you own, where to find them, and how to get you?

      There are many legitimate reasons for exposing your gun ownership to the government in order to get a concealed carry permit, such as your job. But many people are giving up whatever right they may have to not inform the government of their gun ownership simply for ego -- to feel macho in carrying a gun on the street -- and not because there is a real need to carry a pistol. As brainwashed as the white-right is around Obama coming to take their guns, what better way to accomplish this, it seems to me, than using the conceal carry license database to find you and your weapons. Yet the white-right flocks to dealers such as the diarist, and to state gun license offices to readily divulge specifics of themselves and their gun loving ways. I don't object to the registering of all pistols, if not all firearms, personally, but if I were a rightwinger and I wanted a permit to protect the streets, I'd be wary of letting Obama know I packed heat and how to get me, once he let the UN dogs loose.

      "I never met a man I didn't like." Will Rogers - American Redneck

      by chuco35 on Sat Mar 10, 2012 at 11:10:43 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  It's most likely that people don't end up... (0+ / 0-)

        ... Carrying a weapon. They get a bit heavy.

        My guess is that registering for that privilege is the message. It's very McCluhan.

        The main fears the gun nuts have is two part: immediate ability to fend off a home invasion then be able to withstand a temporary breakdown of law n order like in a riot.  Third to
        deter mugging/Assault.

        A Catholic, Jew, Muslim and Buddhist walk into Al Aqsa Mosque. Buddhist immediately exclaims: "excuse me I appear to be in the wrong joke."

        by Salo on Sat Mar 10, 2012 at 12:06:00 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Sounds like my 30-30 brush gun would work (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          buddabelly, Tom Seaview

          just fine in those situations. Or an over-under 12 gauge short barrel if you want to make it easier. With a few box of shells.

          15,000 rounds and AKs? Looks to me like the articulated fears you set out are a pretext by the gun nuts to justify holding enough firepower to lead a platoon into battle when Obama's forces strike. You know the black guys who live in Newark, Oakland, Detroit. Racism, fear of the other, is sadly the peer pressure pulling many people to stock up with war material.

          Don't people hunt anymore? For the love of providing with your wits and your tools?

          "I never met a man I didn't like." Will Rogers - American Redneck

          by chuco35 on Sat Mar 10, 2012 at 01:23:21 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  I'll accept "gun nut" as if you meant it like (8+ / 0-)

          a "car nut" or "gearhead" (one I proudly admit to) and not crazed fanatic with all the attendant bullshit we see so often.

           Depending on your location, 1 and 3 might be flipped.... though places with high levels of carry tend to have lower levels of face to face crimes like muggings and purse snatching and the like...

          There is a legitimate fear unfortunately of the home invasion or "Hot" burglary but luckily it's also rare at least here but again, large quantities of armed households......every year a few home invaders end up shot here, tends to discourage the average lazy crook....

          I do like that here we do not need to register and get a license to carry open or concealed yet if we want reciprocity, there is a licensing process available requiring training, range qualification and full FBI background ck with fingerprints.  Supposedly set up to be impossible to misuse but.....

          One thing I do find interesting is in the last 30 years since Florida lead the way with "Shall Issue" licensing and all but a few have followed, crime, esp violent crime, has been on the decline and substantially.  I don't nesc. think there's a causal link but I do think it shows that the old saw "more guns means more crime" is not correct no matter how common sense it might appear to be.....and who knows, the study's haven't been done, there may be a causal link....I know that here with a reputation for people carrying,  though it's really a small percentage, face to face petty indignities like muggings and purse snatching and strong arm robbery (all crimes that can be much more dangerous as well as being  soul thieves) are so rare as to be a freak occurrence....A purse snatching will make the 5 O'clock News......

          Vaya con Dios Don Alejo
          I want to die a slave to principles. Not to men.
          Emiliano Zapata

          by buddabelly on Sat Mar 10, 2012 at 01:49:00 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  That's what it sounded like to me (6+ / 0-)

            Usually "gun nut" is used in a less positive manner on this website.

          •  A gentle reminder..... (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            HistoryCARD, dotdash2u, Wee Mama

            Violent crime's going down elsewhere too. In Canada last year, the homicide rate was about 1.6 per 100,000, the lowest for 44 years. It's almost exactly 4 times that in the United States, despite recent declines.

            Seventy per cent of American murders are performed with guns. Only thirty per cent of Canadian murders are gun-related.

            Now, correlation does not necessarily prove causation, as you noted. But it can be suggestive.

            "Given the fact of servitude, the feudal relationship is the only tolerable one." (George Orwell)

            by sagesource on Sat Mar 10, 2012 at 06:45:31 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  This (4+ / 0-)
              Seventy per cent of American murders are performed with guns. Only thirty per cent of Canadian murders are gun-related.
              says more about; how we handle disputes, the value we place on the lives of others, the war on drugs, the lack of functioning social safety nets, accessibility to mental health care, our education system and the availability of fulfilling gainful employment than the differences in American and Canadian gun laws.

              Any power that government amasses will not be relinquished and any right we give up we give up forever.

              by oldpunk on Sat Mar 10, 2012 at 08:12:12 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

      •  Huh? (6+ / 0-)

        Getting a CCH permit doesn't prove you own a firearm, though there's a high correlation I am sure.  Also, it's illegal in Colorado for law enforcement agencies to track who has a CCH permit.

        As far as tracking actual ownership of firearms, the 4473 is kept by the FFL who transferred you the firearm, normally they are not sent to the ATF or anyone else, unless you buy multiple handguns on the same day.

        In states like Colorado, people legal to own firearms can buy them private-party without a bill of sale.

        Lastly, a concealed handgun permit is the only ID I know of that proves you're not a felon and have never been convicted of a domestic assault misdemeanor.  Even an LE badge doesn't prove it.

      •  An excellent point! I'll have to remember this nt (2+ / 0-)
      •  In most states... (2+ / 0-)

        ...the permit process does not include any disclosure of the type or number of firearms you might own or choose to carry.
        Here in Delaware, the permits are hard (and expensive) to obtain, but the state could care less what I carry or own. I have a Carry Concealed Deadly Weapons permit, which entitles me to carry any weapon I can legally own. Guns are not registered here, so the only records of the serial numbers of (most of) the guns I own are scattered through written sales books and BATFE forms in various gun shops.

        In addition, the permit qualifies as a state background check, so none of the guns I've purchased from firearms dealers in the past 7 years were reported to the state at time of sale. (Private sales are legal here, so I can purchase as many guns as I want from other Delaware residents without a background check. I haven't, but they don't know that).

        So, they can assume I have firearms because of the permit, but they don't have any additional information about which guns or how many.

        "She's petite, extremely beautiful, and heavily armed." -1995 Michael Moore documentary Canadian Bacon

        by Tom Seaview on Sat Mar 10, 2012 at 07:19:20 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  My dad had his conceal carry back in the Bush... (2+ / 0-)

      era before the Obama gun craze, but he thought it was annoying and wasteful too carry.    The grass is always greener before someone realizes they actually have to carry a gun around all day.

  •  Here's what a gun owner thinls (12+ / 0-)

    Right. On. The. Money.

    I own a few rifles, more than many Kossacks would be comfortable with. I never expect to use them on anything but a target. I keep enough ammo around so I can run to the range if I want, not enough to fight the next war.

    Even my "home defense" weapon, a shotgun, has a non-lethal round as the first round.

    But I worry about the same things you do. Many right thinking gun owners do. A touchstone was that horrible video recently of the gun nut who shot his daughter's computer because of something she said on Facebook. Many gun owners adhere to the idea that you should NEVER use a gun for ANYTHING except target practice and killing something... it is NOT for making a point. That guy should have had his guns AND his kids taken away.

    Sadly, the video went viral, because of exactly the attitude you talk about. And yes, it's worrying.

    Now you can see that increased spending opportunities means harder work for everyone. And more of it, too. - Firesign Theatre

    by WestTexasLiberal on Sat Mar 10, 2012 at 08:57:52 AM PST

    •  PS (5+ / 0-)

      I wandered a bit from my point, which was that you are right about how the culture expands, through peer pressure and keeping up with the Joneses. That was where I was going with the story about the video... no telling how many people saw that and immediately went out and bought a .45. And a .38 for their wives.

      Now you can see that increased spending opportunities means harder work for everyone. And more of it, too. - Firesign Theatre

      by WestTexasLiberal on Sat Mar 10, 2012 at 09:06:05 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  i agree there's some (7+ / 0-)

        "Keeping up with the Jones'  " involved....When a buddy get's a new shiny, I also feel the urge for a new shiny (though my "new" is 60+yo mostly) and so on.  I think that's the same no matter the sport.  Buddy gets new chip for truck, you want chip and exhaust.  It's just human nature.....

        I always let the kids choose whether they wanted to go with or not...rarely was it not and the girls were much better shots than the boy.....concentration......

        Mom needed to know how to use and stay semi practiced but that was again her decision....though on that I would have pushed a bit....didn't need to though....heck she got my pretty model 66 , in the duty holster...man I miss that gun......

        Vaya con Dios Don Alejo
        I want to die a slave to principles. Not to men.
        Emiliano Zapata

        by buddabelly on Sat Mar 10, 2012 at 09:18:47 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Many people shook there heads at that guy :D n/t (2+ / 0-)
    •  What "non-lethal round" do you load? (0+ / 0-)

      “Science is like sex: sometimes something useful comes out, but that is not the reason we are doing it.” – Richard Feynman (-9.00,-8.86)

      by Jonathan Hoag on Sat Mar 10, 2012 at 11:57:42 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Shotgun only for urban home defense (6+ / 0-)

      That from my NRA granddad who served for many years in his local county PD.

      Something about multiple rounds penetrating multiple walls and hitting an unintended target.

      Fire only in self-defense. Your body or your loved ones, not your freaking property.

      A lot of time-consuming processing and documentation involved in a home defense case. Most civilians have no idea what they're in for.

      Wingnuts love to talk about taxes as if the federal income tax is the only tax. In fact, it is the only progressive tax. State and local taxes, tolls, and fees are all highly regressive, taking a much bigger bite out of lower-income wallets.

      by ozsea1 on Sat Mar 10, 2012 at 12:38:06 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I agree. (5+ / 0-)

        You only fire in self defense. I guess it comes down to what an individuals threshold is for determining whether or not lives are in peril. It is my position that if someone breaks into my house while I and my family are home, our lives are in imminent peril of death or serious bodily harm and that the use lethal force is justified.

        I will not risk my life or the lives of my family waiting for the police to maybe show up in time. I will not assume that retreating to one of our rooms will be effective in protecting us. I am not a mind reader, there is no way I can know that someone who is willing to commit a violent crime by breaking into my house is only there for my stuff. I will not take that risk.

        Any power that government amasses will not be relinquished and any right we give up we give up forever.

        by oldpunk on Sat Mar 10, 2012 at 04:31:00 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Fair enough (5+ / 0-)

          Every situation is different. Any suspect who breaks into a single-story house or apartment is at greater risk than a two-story, for example.

          Remember there are civil as well as criminal issues, and these will vary by local jurisdiction.

          Judges and juries don't expect home defenders to be mind readers, but you must be responsible, accountable and prepared.

          Wingnuts love to talk about taxes as if the federal income tax is the only tax. In fact, it is the only progressive tax. State and local taxes, tolls, and fees are all highly regressive, taking a much bigger bite out of lower-income wallets.

          by ozsea1 on Sat Mar 10, 2012 at 05:47:10 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Exactly. It is important to know what the (5+ / 0-)

            statutes are in the state you live. Which is why I will not live in a state without a Castle Doctrine or a state that requires a homeowner to have a duty to retreat.

            A person that engages in robbery, which the FBI defines as a violent crime, undoubtedly presents an imminent threat to the lives of the homeowners and in my opinion in such a situation lethal force is warranted. If a violent criminal is willing to participate in a robbery / home invasion, then the homeowner should not be held liable for the severity of the consequences resulting from the criminals inability to adequately assess the risks of such behavior.

            Any power that government amasses will not be relinquished and any right we give up we give up forever.

            by oldpunk on Sat Mar 10, 2012 at 06:15:06 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

    •  I agree guns should never be used except in... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Mildly Unsuccessful Lurker

      cases of defense of the self/family/innocent (which is a rare occurrence) but especially for sport at non-living targets.

      That guy who shot his daughter's computer is a clown.

      •  Based on the data from the Bureau of Justices (4+ / 0-)

        National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS) were about 108,000 defensive gun uses in 1994 (some estimates range up to 2.5 million but I prefer the more unbiased statistics of the FBI, and the Bureau of Justice). Admittedly that is old data and it is unfortunate that more studies aren't conducted. But with approximately 15,000 firearm related homicides each year, there are close to 7 times the number of defensive gun uses than there are firearm related homicides. Which means that if defensive gun uses are what you would call a rare occurrence then firearm related homicides are even more rare.

        And yes the guy that shot his daughters computer never should have done what he did the way he did it (I am still not convinced it wasn't staged). If he was insistent on shooting the thing he should have set it up as a target down range instead of shooting into the ground.

        Any power that government amasses will not be relinquished and any right we give up we give up forever.

        by oldpunk on Sat Mar 10, 2012 at 08:35:13 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Certainly Hunting Was Peer Pressure As A Kid (11+ / 0-)

    for me, as was fishing, having grown up with a feel for the earth beneath me. Guns were just a part of that, like bait and tackle was for fishing. There was no fanaticism or fetish around guns. They were simply a tool to accomplish a clean kill for the freezer. We surely loved our pieces, and took well good care of them, but not because they parted the darkness of fear, but rather because they were an ancient source of survival and brotherhood. The peer pressure was to connect with the male "provider" within us as hunters, and not the male/manic "protector from evil". To us guns (rifles actually) were implements. To others they're to blow shit up with.

    As for self-defense -- only in my home for me. Guns are way too dangerous to port around, even in cars, in my estimation. But safely in my closet, within easy reach from my bed, my 30-30 brush rifle is a comfort. Along with my 200 rounds, this rifle will keep me in meat for some time in an emergency. Otherwise, it sits sweetly in my closet, all slicked up and pretty.

    "I never met a man I didn't like." Will Rogers - American Redneck

    by chuco35 on Sat Mar 10, 2012 at 10:46:15 AM PST

    •  It wasn't too bad on me, I was dragged along a... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Wee Mama, rb608

      couple times on deer hunting trips but apparently I fidget enough to scare all animals and was soon left behind as a liability.  Luckily the few times I went I didn't see a deer shot, I'm not for that.  (Irony I know as an ammo salesman).

  •  Both my 17 year old and 12 year old shoot (5+ / 0-)

    so they KNOW what a gun can do. That said everything is also locked up.

  •  Interesting thoughts. (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    raincrow, dotdash2u, Wee Mama, rb608, Apost8

    I had an opportunity to attend a family event last summer with my ex-family.   One day over lunch, my ex-brother-in-law, who actually used to be a cool guy, spent about five minutes discussing the weapons ownership in his cul de sac down in Texas somewhere.  All of it about "when Obama sends the troops in to take their guns" and how many thousands of rounds of ammo they had to make their last stands.  

    He really did used to be a cool guy.  I guess 25 years of living in a red state can do that to you.

    But this last summer, when wildfires were burning out of control across Texas, I really couldn't help but wonder if he and his neighbors were still so ready to reject federal emergency help, or if they just decided to go out and shoot at the flames.

    That which doesn't kill me merely postpones the inevitable.

    by EeDan on Sat Mar 10, 2012 at 03:25:21 PM PST

  •  I grew up with guns (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    raincrow

    I don't own any right now because I don't hunt.  Every once in a while I might target shoot if someone offers me the chance, just to see if I can still hit a bulls-eye.  I have my own thoughts on guns and concealed carry.  But some people I don't understand.  Including this guy.  I have watched that several times and keep trying to figure out why he thinks it necessary to have a rig and be able to quick draw.  And unless he is actually shooting at a target further downrange, why would you stand that close to a target to try to do you western gunslinger imitation.

    •  The rule of threes. (7+ / 0-)

      Should someone have sudden need to defend themselves away from home, from someone who is armed (gun/knife/bat/multiple attackers), the scenario is almost always comprised of three traits with measurements of 'three' or less.

      That is, it happens and the distance between you and the attacker(s) is three yards or less. Nine feet.
      The number of shots fired from start to finish is three.
      The number of seconds from start to finish is three.

      The guy in the video is that close to the target because when someone attacks you, they don't stand off a distance away. They come right to arms reach and hit / club / slash / grapple you. If you want to be able to fend off someone who comes up to punching range, or fend off a pair of someones who come up to "hold his arms for me" range, then you practice with a target exactly as close as that guy in the video.

      We are a grouping species, we group together. That guy is practicing at that distance because he isn't going to be sequestering himself away from other people, he will find himself in close proximity to large numbers of people that he doesn't know, and just like the rest of us he will not be able to magically avoid the few bad apples out of the bunch.

      Of note is the Tueller distance. 21 feet. 7 yards. That distance is carefully noted by cops, as they know it as the distance it takes for a person to charge them and successfully attack them before they could draw and fire. At 20 feed, the cop is very likely to get injured, possibly dead depending on the weapon. At 22 feet, the odds of an attentive cop just managing to stop a charging attacker go up a lot.

      Of significant note to you is how the great majority of sudden gunfire happens within 9 feet, which is less than half of the Tueller distance.

      So OF COURSE you practice for close range. 9 feet from your attacker to you means you are up against very steep odds should they charge at you, it is very definitely a matter of living and dying, because there's no reason to think a knife wielding attacker won't get at least two stabs into you, minimum. 9 feet against  baseball wielding attacker means you are trying to draw while dodging a few Babe Ruth swings at your fragile skull. 9 feet from multiple attackers means you WILL be struggling to get your weapon out while at least one attacker is wrestling to pin you immobile on the ground for a stomping.

      Now, does the idea of practicing at contact-close range make more sense to you?

      "I must confess, when I see anyone with an Obama 2012 bumper sticker, I recognize them as a threat to the gene pool." - Republican Congressman Allen West (FL-22) Rawstory Source

      by JayFromPA on Sat Mar 10, 2012 at 05:26:41 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  What Jay said, plus: (3+ / 0-)

      Google "Tueller drill".

    •  Ah, heck disregard, I only read.... (2+ / 0-)

      halfway down before posting.  He beat me too it.

  •  Where I live, "peer pressure" means (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    HistoryCARD

    you can't live with yourself if I buy the latest and greatest new antipersonnel toy, so you break your neck to one-up me with an even more outrageous caliber, magazine capacity, muzzle velocity, etc.

    Damn betcha there's peer pressure among gun owners! ;D

  •  If there's a firearm in the house, (7+ / 0-)

    you better be DAMN sure that everyone in the house knows how to use or 'safe' that firearm. That's part of the point. If I had kids, they wouldn't have a choice since I want those skills ingrained by age 8. Negligent discharges would be a thing of the past if EVERYONE had a firearm safety background.

    Did I pressure my wife into learning firearm safety? Again, you're damn right I did. It didn't take much and she actually really enjoys her own .22 rifle on the range. No recoil and she's an ok shot.

    Why did I do this? Because I have over 20 firearms and that's part of being SAFE with a firearm.

    Republicans cause more damage than guns ever will. Share Our Wealth

    by KVoimakas on Sat Mar 10, 2012 at 06:03:13 PM PST

  •  I used to be a gun owner (5+ / 0-)

    But I sold my last one, a Smith & Wesson 9mm semi-auto, for the funds to buy a Martin acoustic guitar.  I couldn't see having hundreds of dollars tied up in something I very seldom used.  Additionally, as a person with a pretty severe physical disability, I'm subject to periodic bouts of both depression and anger. I can always work through these but didn't feel it prudent to have a lethal weapon easily available during the worst of these, when I might be tempted to use it on myself or someone else.  As for self-defense, I feel it would be all too easy for an assailant to take it from me and use it on me.

    I've been gun-free now for about 25 years and have never regretted my decision to be so.  When I've got the blues or am pissed off at the world, I play it out on one of my many guitars.  And I take care to avoid situations where I may be in danger of being physically assaulted.

    To each his own but I pretty much agree with Steve Earle, "A pistol is the Devil's right hand."  And I was brought up in a state with a strong gun culture (Vermont) and currently live in another (Arizona).  

    •  I applaud your move towards self-safety kudos nt (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Wee Mama
    •  You have evaluated your situation (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      johnel, PavePusher, hagagaga, KVoimakas

      and made an educated decision that you believe best meets your needs. I just can't get on board with this sentiment.

      To each his own but I pretty much agree with Steve Earle, "A pistol is the Devil's right hand."  
      Everyone knows the devil is bad, if a pistol is the devils right hand, a vital and important part of the devil then it is axiomatic that pistols (guns) are bad.

      Inanimate objects (guns) do not have the capacity to be good or bad. Such attributes can only be applied to those who wield the gun and the purpose they put it to.

      Any power that government amasses will not be relinquished and any right we give up we give up forever.

      by oldpunk on Sat Mar 10, 2012 at 08:49:27 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  probably all for the best (0+ / 0-)

      "Slip now and you'll fall the rest of your life" Derek Hersey 1957-1993

      by ban nock on Sun Mar 11, 2012 at 03:15:57 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  When we got married, I owned half a dozen guns I (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    HistoryCARD

    had collected over the years.  My wife is very understanding, really doesn't care how many guns I own.

    I'm just now allowed to own any bullets...

    What'd the devil give you for your soul, Tommy? He taught me to play this here guitar REAL good. Oh son, for that you traded your everlastin' soul? Well, I wuddn' usin' it.

    by ZedMont on Sun Mar 11, 2012 at 06:28:34 AM PDT

    •  This is a conspiracy theory I hear often about... (0+ / 0-)

      how the government is engaging in gun control.  The theory goes that the govt is forcing arms companies to charge higher prices for ammo so that it's less affordable.  You can't tell these people that demand and metal costs are driving costs upward.

    •  "Not," not "now." (0+ / 0-)

      What'd the devil give you for your soul, Tommy? He taught me to play this here guitar REAL good. Oh son, for that you traded your everlastin' soul? Well, I wuddn' usin' it.

      by ZedMont on Sun Mar 11, 2012 at 10:59:38 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Your poll did not include "reluctantly" (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    HistoryCARD

    so I didn't answer because I can't say "no" to it. Periodically (every ten years or so) my hubby goes through a brief (day or two) spell of "you should learn to use the gun- let me show you." So I spend an afternoon cooperating and wait for it to pass because I am definitely one of those who worry more about being overpowered and having it used against me. But it makes him feel better to teach me and I can be open-minded enough to be interested for a short while.
         But I don't own or carry one, and I made him keep his in the garage, in pieces stored separately so IF the grand-kids found some of it they still wouldn't be able to hurt themselves.
         Now of course this defeats the purpose of self-defense, but ya gotta picture this scene- the only time he ever tried to use it:  late at night, we were mostly asleep and a strange crunching noise started in the backyard. He gets up, still half asleep, no glasses on (!!!) and stumbles out waving the gun. It was a moonless night and there WAS a large, shadowy stranger in the yard. Luckily hubby was not trampled when he disturbed a neighbor's big black cow calmly eating the hay out of our doghouse. Also luckily, hubby didn't shoot anything, and that's when we re-evaluated the value of having a gun nearby when you're not prepared and the challenger is.

  •  It Depends on Where you Live (3+ / 0-)

    The state Motto of New Hampshire is "Live Free or Die".  
    A Lot of People in this state take that expression Seriously.
    The process for obtaining a concealed carry permit is a routine procedure.
    All Handled by the Local police departments.
    Application Fee is reasonable.
    Two Weeks from Start to Finish.

    Drive Two Miles across the Massachusetts Border and
    the Situation is Completely Different. Fingerprints.
    Background Check done by the State Police. You MUST
    explain WHY you want the Permit. You have to Pay a
    Fee for Everything. If someone LIKES You, your application
    will get processed in 2-4 Months. If they Don't Like You,
    the Answer is NEVER.

    On Giving Advice: Smart People Don't Need It and Stupid People Don't Listen

    by Brian76239 on Sun Mar 11, 2012 at 08:02:35 AM PDT

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