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"Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

Rick Warren appeared on ABC's "This Week" on Sunday and spent the interview offending (his) G-d. Warren used his holy book to denigrate the poor and needy in this country, and outright lie about who is responsible for the plight of the working class in America.

Rick Warren: ‘Inability to Delay Gratification’ at Heart of Economic Woes

WARREN:  Well, certainly the Bible says we are to care about the poor.  There’s over 2,000 verses in the Bible about the poor.  And God says that those who care about the poor, God will care about them and God will bless them.  But there’s a fundamental question on the meaning of “fairness.”  Does fairness mean everybody makes the same amount of money? Or does fairness mean everybody gets the opportunity to make the same amount of money? I do not believe in wealth redistribution, I believe in wealth creation …

For a pastor to make a statement like that is breathtakingly offensive. It is an intentional distortion of the position of democrats/liberals/progressives. And it is stunningly ignorant of the actual teachings of the Bible — either Testament; Old or New.

Job 34:17-19
"Can he who hates justice govern? Will you condemn the just and mighty One? Is he not the One who says to kings, 'You are worthless,' and to nobles, 'You are wicked,' who shows no partiality to princes and does not favor the rich over the poor, for they are all the work of his hands?”

And yet he advocates for the kings and princes in America to receive greater and greater favor in our tax code — to heap greater and greater rewards on those whose cups already runneth over.

WARREN: But regardless of all the problems that we see out there, I think they all have at their root a spiritual cause. And we have overspent… We have not been a responsible — we’ve bought things we didn’t need with money we didn’t have to impress people we didn’t even like. And now we’re paying the piper. And you cannot ignore the principles of finance that are in God’s word, and they are in the Book of Proverbs. It’s quite clear, they’re principles of business, principles of economics that are actually in the Bible.

WARREN: And when you ignore these things, then we’re going to get deeper and deeper into debt, and then we can’t blame God for that… The biggest problem for all of our economic problems is our inability to delay gratification. I want it and I want it now, and I’m going to buy it even if I can’t afford it. And not only have people done that, the government’s done it.

Shame on Rick Warren. He'd better hope (his) G-d shows him mercy, or surely he will spend eternity in the fiery pits of Hell.

Let me illustrate why there has become such an enormous dependence upon credit in this country. ...

So what does Rick Warren's Bible say about this?

Jeremiah 22:3 "This is what the LORD says: Do what is just and right. Rescue from the hand of his oppressor the one who has been robbed."

Workers in America have been robbed of the fruits of their labor by the wealthy and powerful in this country for half a century. Half a century. We have been working harder and harder, putting in more and more backbreaking hours, taking second and third jobs, working weekends ... all for naught.

Every single penny of increased profits from our labor has been stolen from us by our oppressors. And I am not afraid to call them that. An honest person will acknowledge that we are oppressed by powerful business interests who have intentionally created a market environment where our labor is of little to no value. They've farmed out our jobs to overseas nations with no respect for workers' rights, so that they can claim "the market will bear" only pennies on the dollar as compensation for us here in America. They create the market, then blame the very market they created for the level of our wages, as if it happened in a vacuum and their hands are clean.

Their hands are dirty. Filthy dirty.

Billionaire business owners like Wal-Mart have built their individual wealth not only off the backs of their employees, but the backs of all taxpayers who are forced to subsidize their employees' paychecks with taxpayer-paid food stamps and health care, even though their employees are working full-time. The Wal-Marts of this country literally aren't bothering to pay a living wage because they can get away with it knowing taxpayers will have to pick up the difference!

So who is it that's really getting "government handouts"? I submit it is the big corporations who refuse to pay a living wage, and not the individuals who literally cannot find work that pays a living wage in this country. The Wal-Marts and other Big Corporations are robbing the poor and robbing taxpayers to line their pockets with gold.

And then there is the lie that the wealthy (who have only achieved that status as a direct result of stealing our labor) are "job creators" at all. They are not. They may do the hiring, but the jobs don't exist because they've "created" them. They exist because middle class and poor Americans create a demand for their products. Without demand, there is no need for jobs. And rich people don't individually buy 3,000 cars a year.

It is a tenet of American economic beliefs, and an article of faith for Republicans that is seldom contested by Democrats: If taxes are raised on the rich, job creation will stop.

Trouble is, sometimes the things that we know to be true are dead wrong. For the larger part of human history, for example, people were sure that the sun circles the Earth and that we are at the center of the universe. It doesn’t, and we aren’t. The conventional wisdom that the rich and businesses are our nation’s “job creators” is every bit as false. ...

It is unquestionably true that without entrepreneurs and investors, you can’t have a dynamic and growing capitalist economy. But it’s equally true that without consumers, you can’t have entrepreneurs and investors. And the more we have happy customers with lots of disposable income, the better our businesses will do.

That’s why our current policies are so upside down. When the American middle class defends a tax system in which the lion’s share of benefits accrues to the richest, all in the name of job creation, all that happens is that the rich get richer. ...

~ Nick Hanauer, venture capitalist and entrepreneur

It's past time for our leaders in the Democratic Party to push back on the lies of Rick Warren and his Republican ilk.

The Middle Class are the job creators in this country.

Billionaires are receiving government subsidies they're using to supplement their employees' pay.

Rick Warren is a liar and an affront to G-d.

Originally posted to jillwklausen on Mon Apr 09, 2012 at 08:36 AM PDT.

Also republished by Spiritual Organization of Unapologetic Liberals at Daily Kos.

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Comment Preferences

  •  You forgot one important part to jobs/1%ers (27+ / 0-)

    Companies (especially in Hi-tech fields like mine-telecom) use H1-B workers.

    What is the REAL NEED for this?  Isn't unemplyment high enough?  There are plenty of kids out of college with hi-tech degrees looking for jobs, so the corporate BS speak of unqualified people is BS!

    The reason is that H1-B workers DEPRESS avergae salaries.  They can be treated unfairly and if they complain, the company can revoke the H!-B and ship them home.

    Corporations use people like these to DEPRESS WAGES so that they may take more from us!

    •  As one about to lose his job to an H1-B, let me (26+ / 0-)

      add: The companies have managed to convince whatever regulators that not a single person in America can do the work, so we NEED H1-Bs.

    •  you'd think (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Wee Mama, Cassandra Waites, The Nose

      You'd think that there would be traction with the paranoid nativists in fighting the H1-B program (they tuk ur jerbz!) but I haven't seen anything of the sort.

      •  The reason why (4+ / 0-)

        Their corporate overlords and masters would not be able to make more profits to funnel to CEOs.

        As such they define the messege.  And that is one they want to keep hush hush from their blinded minions

        •  Which is why immigration policy scares GOP shtless (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          RFK Lives

          The vast majority of GOP voters are nativist middle class white males who cannot stomach the thought of "minorities" everywhere they look and blame 90% of all that is wrong in America to "illegals" and therefore demand laws like those written in AZ.

          PROBLEM: GOP Nobility, "W's" constituency knew damn well that the economy of Texas, Florida, California and, oh - every other f*cking state depends heavily upon illegal labor at less than minimum wage to support the industrial giants in Ag, Hotels, food processing  etc. etc. etc. - - thus, the GOP leaders "talk" tough and never actually do anything except sh*t their pants when the democrats propose a sensible worker program.

          ON a complete other thought - - who is worse, Rick Warren who is a known corporatist tool posing as "religious" (not spiritual, not sermon on the mount stuff)  or ABC for having the asshat on what is supposed to be a "News" show and getting his opinion on ANYTHING!  Answer - ABC.

          "How can the United States be the Greatest Nation ever if it is the only modern nation where citizens hold bake sales to pay for life saving medical care?" Single payer is coming but how many people will die before it becomes the only solution?

          by 4CasandChlo on Mon Apr 09, 2012 at 09:51:44 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Warren: Ministry :: Peggy Noonan: Journalism (2+ / 0-)

            Since Warren was allowed to host a candidate forum attended by both major party nominees in 2008 and since he was invited to give invocation at 2009 inaugural, I'm not going to judge ABC too harshly.  He has (totally undeserved) "mainstream" credibility.  I'm still wondering, however, why Jesus' favorite venture capitalist got the latter invitation.

            Some men see things as they are and ask why. I dream of things that never were and ask why not?

            by RFK Lives on Mon Apr 09, 2012 at 10:35:54 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  The nativist teabaggers... (4+ / 0-)

        Don't have a clue.  And their 'harass all immigrants' antics are good for business - by design. People who live in fear are less likely to complain and less likely to avail themselves of the legal system if they feel like they are being treated unfairly.  A two-fer.

        'Osama Bin Ladien is still dead and GM is still alive' - Joe Biden

        by RichM on Mon Apr 09, 2012 at 09:38:46 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Teabaggers don't do nuance. (0+ / 0-)

        The problem can't be explained within the confines of a bumper-sticker; hence it's invisible to them.

    •  What's needed are programs (5+ / 0-)

      to identify the needed skills and to train workers in those skills; if you have any sort of programming background it's not that difficult to add on another -- the basic logic is the same, usually just a difference in terminology and structure.

      I have no problem with a short-term H1-B program for a specific project, or to train workers to go and start subsidiaries in their home countries or continents. But when you're laying off workers and replacing them with H-1Bs, something's wrong with the system.

      And yes, the pay is depressed -- sometimes they can't even find a place to live large enough for their families (we have some families of 4 living in a 1 bedroom apartment here).

      •  Disagree. Workers have the skills already. (6+ / 0-)

        After being fired during the tech outsourcing debacle, my husband got many trainings and desirable certifications at his own expense, to make himself 'more qualified'.

        No one would hire him, because he cost more than an H1B.  It's that simple.

        It's a lie. A total lie. An evil lie, made to justify profits.

        As a side comment, my oldest daughter is graduating from a top math/science college, Harvey Mudd College. Those kids are damned brilliant, and there's plenty more here in America where they came from.

        Americans are smart, educated, and willing to work.

        It is greedy corporations who are not willing to hire them, when H1Bs work for less, and are easily cowed/controlled.

        It's a lie. Remember, it's a lie.

        And FWIW, we agree that anyone knows that good programmers can quickly and easily learn  new stuff. The reason that ads get super-specific is so that they have plausible deniability when somehow no 'qualified' American workers can be found.

        This reminds me of the gay main character in Ang Lee's wonderful film The Wedding Banquet:

        When Wai-Tung's parents hire a dating service, he and Simon stall for time by inventing impossible demands. Chinese opera singers are always men, so they demand an opera singer and add that she must be very tall, must have two PhD's and should speak five languages. The service actually locates a 1.75 m (5'9") Chinese woman who sings Western opera, speaks five languages and has a single PhD.
        In corporate America, that would not be good enough. She would actually need 2 Ph.D's, and be at least 6 feet tall as specified.

        The point of course is that were the character sincerely looking for a female partner, these ridiculous over-the-top demands would be unnecessary.

        And that, in a nutshell is the shell game played by companies and their H1B visa follies. MHO, as an observer of the game.

        Life is a school, Love is the lesson.

        by means are the ends on Mon Apr 09, 2012 at 10:30:25 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  PREACH ON! (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          means are the ends

          And I can guess at those expensive certs and know they are pricey AND take a good deal of intelligence to pass.

          •  Yes, the certificates make expensive (0+ / 0-)

            decorative testimonials to my hubby's high IQ; none of them appear to actually lead to jobs, however. Only the absence of any of them lead to arbitrary rejection.

            And that's about it.

            Thanks for the response.

            That was a particularly ugly time in our lives, when my husband learned the lesson, down to his soul, that the social contract was entirely shredded in the YOYO society.

            Life is a school, Love is the lesson.

            by means are the ends on Mon Apr 09, 2012 at 04:01:29 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Yes! A thousand times YES! (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          means are the ends

          I am a software developer. I have a b.s. in comp sci.

          Everything you say about H1-B visas are easily controlled: so very true.

          What you said about over the top demands to make it appear that there are no workers with skills so they can hire cheap labor: true!

          And that good programmers can learn new technology quickly? Yep. A thousand times YES!

          I have been replaced by H1-B visa workers, so I have experienced this first hand. Then, years later I got hired by another company to RE-WORK THE OFFSHORE WORK.

          What is it with American businesses that could care less about the population of the country that made them so successful? It is absolutely disgusting.

          •  Yep, my hubby was rehired to rework the outsourced (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            prgsvProgrammerChick

            crap that was coming in after he was fired.

            So outsourcing is "cheap" and often a waste of money.

            But the 'brilliant' managers who sold the outsourcing have fallen upward, are gone, and get credit for saving all that $$$!

            Because this is a huge bank we are talking about, the bean counters quickly came to their senses and pulled back on the insanity.

            Their kool aid drinking only extends as far as it doesn't effect the flow of money through their huge computer systems.  They can't afford to dick around playing ideological  games while customers can't access their money.

            Otherwise, the same rat bastards. After all, they hired hubby back for less, with loss of seniority, vesting, and benefits. It's all good!

             /snark.

            Life is a school, Love is the lesson.

            by means are the ends on Tue Apr 10, 2012 at 09:58:46 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  Absolutely correct. (5+ / 0-)

      In a suburban shopping center near Rochester NY there is a gigantic cube farm occupying the vast shell of a defunct big-box store. Inside toil hundreds of employees, many of them H1-B IT workers, helping corporate America more efficiently off-shore their employment. This company helps the remaining corporate giants in our area move all their remaining service and tech support jobs to India, thereby further accelerating the implosion of the local economy.

  •  if the 1% could "delay gratification" we would (29+ / 0-)

    raise their taxes ALOT and get back to the business of investing in this country and rebuilding our crumbling society.

    Rick Warren is RIGHT about delayed gratification.  he is just completely WRONG about the source of the problem.

  •  Prosperity gospel is an oxymoron. n/t (21+ / 0-)

    "The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function." -- Edward Teller

    by lgmcp on Mon Apr 09, 2012 at 08:46:06 AM PDT

  •  I watched this interview and Rick is so typical of (9+ / 0-)

    a Preacher Who Got Rich, so f### everyone else.

    He was inspirational years ago, what changed? MONEY.

    Money is the Only God to these guys- wake up followers!!!

    "Time is for careful people, not passionate ones."

    "Life without emotions is like an engine without fuel."

    by roseeriter on Mon Apr 09, 2012 at 08:46:33 AM PDT

    •  I wonder... (4+ / 0-)

      what purchases he has made that he didn't really need...

      I wonder how many Social security checks he has cashed form his elderly followers...

      Pastor Rick should delaaaay his gratificaaaation and tell his followers that Gaahhhhd is not short on cash.  

      They should saaaaaave their money and contribute to the health of this naaaaaation.  

      Rick Warren should delaaaaaay his Church's gratificaaaaation and susssssspend their tax free status so they can contribute the the wealth of this naaaaaaaation.  

      He is a wealthy man, so he should delaaaaaay his gratification and give up his pay until the poor all have jahhhhbs at livings waaaages.

      "Perhaps the sentiments contained in the following pages, are not YET sufficiently fashionable to procure them general favour..."

      by Buckeye Nut Schell on Mon Apr 09, 2012 at 09:30:55 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  The "playing field" will be leveled (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      joe wobblie

      It's not a matter of IF, it's a matter of WHEN:

      Isaiah 13:11   And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

      "Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Matthew 5:11

      by parsonsbeach on Mon Apr 09, 2012 at 11:26:59 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  On false prophets... (7+ / 0-)

    God is dead, and Charles Darwin killed Him! - Yet false prophets (Rick Warren) and pervert clerics still feed of His Corpse!

    ! The swinistic greed and racial hatred of the American ruling elite is abysmal !

    by joe wobblie on Mon Apr 09, 2012 at 08:48:28 AM PDT

  •  Warren is a bit too isolated in Orange County, Ca (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Nulwee, Shotput8, parsonsbeach

    ...where indeed much of what he says may be true. and where he must tailor his sermons to a wealthy, largely white population where the mean house costs over $700,000. He needs to tend his flock or else his megachurch membership will decline along with his megamillions .

    The morals of workers, employed and unemployed, a little further away from Disneyland are not in need of quite so much fire and brimstone.  

    Besides, why listen to him since "it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for" Rick Warren "to enter the kingdom of God."

    Eliminate the Bush tax cuts Eliminate Afghan and Iraq wars Do these things first before considering any cuts

    by kck on Mon Apr 09, 2012 at 08:50:55 AM PDT

  •  This diary is very well framed and written. (8+ / 0-)

    Eliminate the Bush tax cuts Eliminate Afghan and Iraq wars Do these things first before considering any cuts

    by kck on Mon Apr 09, 2012 at 08:54:59 AM PDT

  •  Why are these people even given air time? (6+ / 0-)

    I never watch these programs anymore because it's all blah, blah, blah, yadda, yadda, yadda, from the Republicans.  They have faux news, now they are taking over commercial TV.  They are not getting my time.

    Also, this is just another nail in the coffin that the bible is just a book up for interpretation.  Everyone interprets it to suit themselves.  Just sayin'.

    love the fetus, hate the child

    by Raggedy Ann on Mon Apr 09, 2012 at 08:56:14 AM PDT

  •  The Bible had something to say about this: (13+ / 0-)
    And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
    Matthew 19:24.
    •  Quotes like this... (2+ / 0-)

      ...actually serve the interests of the status quo.  If you can convince poor people that they'll get justice and their reward in the afterlife, it's a great way to keep them from demanding justice now.  

      •  Fair point. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        KathleenM1, PSzymeczek

        The April 16, 2012 cover story in Time magazine noted that the traditional evangelical view of the afterlife could easily be construed as a message to the poor to know their place and expect some sort of compensatory damages when they got to heaven.

        Authors like N.T. Wright, discussed at length in the Time article, have attacked this view and suggested that people need to get busy now, making this world a better and fairer place.

    •  I'm pretty sure... (4+ / 0-)

      Rick Warren has never read the book of Matthew.

      'Osama Bin Ladien is still dead and GM is still alive' - Joe Biden

      by RichM on Mon Apr 09, 2012 at 09:42:07 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Totally agree with you bjm (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      blue jersey mom, grover, joe wobblie

      The problem is that it's much easier for people to sit in their mega churches listening to liars and deceivers than to actually open and read a bible. If the GOP actually "practiced what they preached" (and possessed a conscience) they might actually see themselves in Matthew 23.

      In the meantime let them all enjoy their filthy lucre while they can:

      Luke 6:24   But woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation.

      "Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Matthew 5:11

      by parsonsbeach on Mon Apr 09, 2012 at 11:57:15 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I wonder how many of Warren's flock (8+ / 0-)

    put their tithe on a credit card?  He didn't build that Saddleback hellhole all by himself......

    He is right about delayed gratification.  He just aims it all in the wrong direction.

    THE answer to all of our woes is the tax code.  Business owners must have a choice:  pay your workers, or pay the government.

  •  delayed gratification. That would help (5+ / 0-)

    with things like global climate change.

  •  RW Christians really struggle with the commandment (9+ / 0-)

    to care for the poor.  They hate the poor so much that they come up with all sorts of justifications for ignoring or hurting them.  These are just some of the few I've heard:

    1) They own colour TV's so they aren't really poor
    2) They don't want to work, so they are poor
    3) They are being punished for sin with poverty

    For those who agree that Jesus commanded caring for the poor, they argue:

    1) Help was to be voluntary, therefore government help would equal "forcing" them to help the poor
    2) Help was to down gladly, so if they resent helping, they don't have to help.

    Rick Warren's approach "they spent their way into poverty" is interesting, given that if you never had any money, how did you spend your way into poverty.  It is the first "the poor are to blame for their poverty, so we don't have to help them" argument I have heard.

    All of the above simply equate with a RW Christian hatred of the poor and a refusal to follow Jesus' commandment that the poor be comforted, the hungry be fed, the sick be tended and the naked be clothed.

    “Tax and Spend” I can understand. I can even understand “Borrow and Spend”. But “Borrow and Give Tax Cuts to Billionaires”? That I have a problem with.

    by LiberalCanuck on Mon Apr 09, 2012 at 09:18:55 AM PDT

    •  They aren't Christians and they don't struggle. (3+ / 0-)

      I agree completely with your underlying point, but the well-off church-going people I know have no idea what true Christianity is.

      So they don't lose any sleep trying to reconcile their opinions and beliefs with their hatred for poor people, because hating poor people is a feature not a bug of their actual belief system - greed is good, the Other is beneath contempt, and the rich through the instrumentality of the Republican party should rule the world.  

      Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to care for orphans and widows in their distress...

      My brothers and sisters, do you with your acts of favoritism really believe in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ? 2For if a person with gold rings and in fine clothes comes into your assembly, and if a poor person in dirty clothes also comes in, 3and if you take notice of the one wearing the fine clothes and say, “Have a seat here, please,” while to the one who is poor you say, “Stand there,” or, “Sit at my feet,” 4have you not made distinctions among yourselves, and become judges with evil thoughts? 5Listen, my beloved brothers and sisters. Has not God chosen the poor in the world to be rich in faith and to be heirs of the kingdom that he has promised to those who love him?

  •  Warren needs to read the freaking Bible. (8+ / 0-)

    "All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had. [...] There were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned lands or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales and put it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to anyone as he had need."

    -- Acts 4:32-35

    Or how about the words of Jesus himself.

    "Jesus answered, 'If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.'"

    -- Matthew 19:21

    But then, what would Jesus know about being Christian.

  •  Face it, warren & ilk are brave, brave dudes. (10+ / 0-)

    If they believe in the teachings of Jesus (man or myth) the Christ as the term Christian would imply they are willing to face a lot to stand by their beliefs.

    Jesus was pretty nice, all about love one another and pretty forgiving of sinners but there were exceptions. There were a couple of times he came down a little hard on certain groups.

    One was that whole parable about the least of your brethren in Matthew 25. How the groups are divided at the end of times and he is all praising one group

    ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
    and they are all  'Whhhat?' They didn't remember seeing him in any of those situations but he explains it to them
    ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
    Well those on the other side (looking at you rick warren) must not have been listening because when he told them their future
    “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and ...
    They were also all "Whhhat?" Heck they never refused to help him
    So he explains it again
    45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
    Then he summarizes nicely
    46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
    So I won't even get into his similar comments and plans for the false teachers of the religion, the scribes and pharisees he was all "Woe unto thee" about
    We'll just take the doing unto him talk.

    So Warren is saying "Jesus, dude, I would so help you if only I believed you had really tried to use your opportunity to take care of yourself. You were a carpenter but you took off wandering, pulling men away from their work to follow you and hey, is that fair? Really?
    Sure, salvation is a fine goal, but you were all "I want it and I want it now"

    Or however he would explain it away. Maybe he'd give Jesus a pass, knowing Jesus has connections, but would want to fast talk him about the current slobs that he wants to get real about, how hey, iff God loved them they'd be wealthy or whatever.

    But that still small voice in his heart that he ignores has to be calling out to him
    HEY LISTEN> You really want to be in the only group he says goes to that eternal home with satan?
    Cause either he is willing to face hell for the treasures he gets here or he thinks he is way smarter than Jesus or he is faking his faith being in Jesus the Christ.

    So he is one brave dude

    •  Outstanding post. ~ Jill (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      parsonsbeach

      Stop the party of Gut & Spend policies that gut our Earned Benefits programs like Social Security and Medicare and spends on deeper and deeper tax breaks for the wealthy elite.

      by jillwklausen on Mon Apr 09, 2012 at 09:35:31 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I second Jill: Excellent post! (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      joe wobblie

      And as I said up thread, let them enjoy their filthy ill-gotten lucre now.... while they can:

      Luke 6:24   But woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation.

      "Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Matthew 5:11

      by parsonsbeach on Mon Apr 09, 2012 at 12:21:11 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  If... (5+ / 0-)

    Tomorrow, every consumer in America woke up and stopped spending - only living on absolute essentials, stopped traveling, got rid of cable, moved to a much smaller house, etc. - the entire economy would collapse on itself.  This is what happens when a person acquires wealth by 'preaching' and has no fucking clue how the real world works.  I still fume that this is the guy Obama had speak at the inauguration.

    'Osama Bin Ladien is still dead and GM is still alive' - Joe Biden

    by RichM on Mon Apr 09, 2012 at 09:36:17 AM PDT

  •  more scripture (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bluegrass50, parsonsbeach

    I was just looking at the assigned readings for next Sunday, April 15, the second Sunday of Easter.  

    From Acts 4 - A story from the early church:

    32Now the whole group of those who believed were of one heart and soul, and no one claimed private ownership of any possessions, but everything they owned was held in common. 33With great power the apostles gave their testimony to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and great grace was upon them all. 34There was not a needy person among them, for as many as owned lands or houses sold them and brought the proceeds of what was sold. 35They laid it at the apostles’ feet, and it was distributed to each as any had need. 36There was a Levite, a native of Cyprus, Joseph, to whom the apostles gave the name Barnabas (which means “son of encouragement”). 37He sold a field that belonged to him, then brought the money, and laid it at the apostles’ feet.

    Seems like the early church was awfully interested in wealth redistribution.  Apparently Rick's not all that interested in this part of the Bible or his Christian heritage, either.
  •  redistribution (6+ / 0-)
    I do not believe in wealth redistribution...
    There’s an unacknowledged assumption buried in this statement: that the current distribution of wealth is entirely right and proper; that the very wealthy are that way because they fairly earned everything they have. In Rick Warren’s world there must be no such thing as the raw exercise of power, people are never exploited, and everyone earns the just rewards from their labors. In other words: a fantasy world.

    In reality, Warren is just another right-wing huckster pimping for Free Market Jesus.  

    Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read. - Groucho Marx

    by Joe Bob on Mon Apr 09, 2012 at 09:41:23 AM PDT

    •  But when labor is empowered to collectively (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      bluegrass50, parsonsbeach, Joe Bob

      bargain for better wages, thus "redistributing wealth" downward, Warrens' RW buddies (if not Warren himself) are out screaming bloody murder and socialism.

      To them, fairness is what's fair to THEM.

      "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

      by kovie on Mon Apr 09, 2012 at 10:06:52 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I don't watch Rick Warren, can't stomach him (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    PSzymeczek, parsonsbeach

    Good diary, thanks.

    "Such is the irresistible nature of truth that all it asks, and all it wants, is the liberty of appearing." - Thomas Paine

    by blueoregon on Mon Apr 09, 2012 at 09:57:14 AM PDT

  •  Rick Warren is a Christian (3+ / 0-)

    like Rush Limbaugh is a porn star.  

    If lack of conscience were sugar, he'd be in a diabetic coma.

    "Some of you are going to die... martyrs, of course, to the Freedom that I will provide!"

    by emperor nobody on Mon Apr 09, 2012 at 09:58:23 AM PDT

  •  Rick Warren needs to decide if he's a pastor (7+ / 0-)

    or a politician. He disgusts me, and he insults and demeans my faith. It's not bad enough that he tries to use the Bible to "prove" stuff (that's not what it's for) but it's pretty disgusting to use it to try to prove that God is a Republican.

    Santorum: Man on Dog; Romney: Dog on Car. Ren and Stimpy: Dog on Cat equalitymaine.org

    by commonmass on Mon Apr 09, 2012 at 09:59:31 AM PDT

    •  To add... (0+ / 0-)

      ..."God is a Republican", the Trinity is Republican, and Mormons don't believe in the Trinity.  That makes Romney, uh...

      Koch Industries, Inc: Quilted Northern, Angel Soft, Brawny, Sparkle, Soft 'n Gentle, Mardi Gras, Vanity Fair, Dixie

      by ChiTownDenny on Mon Apr 09, 2012 at 10:50:23 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Yeah, I saw it too (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    AggieDemocrat, parsonsbeach

    Can't stand the guy, and I still think Obama's picking him to give that inaugural speech was an act of obvious pandering and moral weakness, a side of him that I do not like or respect and which I hope he's grown out of.

    Lie down with false gods, wake up fleeced.

    "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

    by kovie on Mon Apr 09, 2012 at 10:03:39 AM PDT

  •  It's the prosperity religion (2+ / 0-)

    If you're not prosperous, God doesn't love you. I've heard it all my life. That's not my Christianity.

  •  False Prophet (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    parsonsbeach

    One of many.

    Making it hard for good people to find the truth.

    Satan is laughing!

    The Fail will continue until actual torches and pitchforks are set in motion. - Pangolin@kunstler.com

    by No one gets out alive on Mon Apr 09, 2012 at 10:14:59 AM PDT

  •  Napoleon (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    tjmorganjr, PSzymeczek, parsonsbeach
    "Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."

    "I want to keep them alive long enough that I can win them to Christ," - Rick Warren, Professional Greed Driven Scumbag

    by josephk on Mon Apr 09, 2012 at 10:25:57 AM PDT

  •  With all due respect (0+ / 0-)

    I think that there is a way to interpret what Warren has said here in a way that is not as offensive.

    I am a pastor myself, and I believe as well that the root cause of our problems is greed, is the statement, "I want what I want, and I want it now."  That is the way in which the rich take from the poor--they feel entitled to anything they want.  And if you look at the scope of what Warren has done, he himself now gives away 90% of his salary.  So please don't assume that he is talking about poor people. In your second quote, he says first that individuals have been greedy, then expands to government.  I don't see a reference to programs to alleviate poverty, just a comment about income redistribution.  On that point, I disagree with his exegesis of the scriptures.  The year of Jubilee was supposed to be exactly income redistribution every 50 years.  Of course, there is no record of ancient Israel ever observing that year.

    I'm no fan of the Southern Baptist Convention, and Rick Warren has made many statement with which I disagree. But if he is able to succeed in making greed seen as a social value, that would be a wonderful thing.

    Five years after I chose my username, happily living somewhere else.

    by Tenn Wisc Dem on Mon Apr 09, 2012 at 10:53:53 AM PDT

      •  Obviously, if it were pretzel, I'd be the last (0+ / 0-)

        to see it.  But I suspect that the impulse to call it that is aided by the general anti-religion prejudice here.  Warren has a lot of bad ideas, but some good ones as well.  I think it's possible to like some of what he says.  I also think it's possible to take what he says and tweek it into a message that is worth hearing.

        Five years after I chose my username, happily living somewhere else.

        by Tenn Wisc Dem on Mon Apr 09, 2012 at 12:28:43 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I think you are giving Rick Warren way (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          parsonsbeach

          too much credit.  his record speaks for itself.  He is a tool of the 1%, or even the 0.1%.  his role is to provide the opium of the masses to the ignorant so they won't think they are being fleeced.  he is very good at his role.

    •  I reread the interview because I wanted to really (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      bluegrass50, joe wobblie

      try and understand your defense of Warren. I don't like the fact that he tries to put the blame of our current economic distress on everyone. Maybe there are some people who overspent to try to impress/keep up with the Jones'. I'd like to meet them because I don't know them. Everyone I know, many middle class, are struggling to make ends meet.

      What I do know is exactly who to blame for our current crisis. That would be George W. Bush, Dick "Reagan proved that deficits don't matter" Cheney and the rest of that criminal enterprise who used our credit cards to wage their criminal wars for the enrichment of their friends.

      I apologize for sounding angry, it is not directed at you, but I'm tired of borrowing from Peter to pay Paul because a bunch of bored republicans decided to play the game of "Risk" at our expense.

      "Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Matthew 5:11

      by parsonsbeach on Mon Apr 09, 2012 at 12:59:04 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  well, see my comment above about how (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      parsonsbeach

      it is the 1% and their instant gratification that is the real root of the problem.  If we had a sane and rational tax policy we would be investing in our country.  We are not.

      and Warren gives away his real agenda when he says that he does not agree their should be equal income or wealth.  That is a classic distortion and misdirection by the right.   Few on the progressive side are arguing for "equal".  Typical right wing canard and an obvious giveaway.

    •  If only you understood Right Wing Code Language (3+ / 0-)

      I'm sorry, Pastor, but your willingness to give Rick Warren the benefit of the doubt, while noble, is misplaced.

      When he says he is "against redistribution of wealth," he is parroting a right wing talking point aimed at denigrating the working class poor and the party who best represents them in Congress, who have been saying that we need a fair distribution of wealth in this country. What they do - always - is fire back by twisting what we've said, claiming we said something we didn't even remotely say - and then attacking us for it.

      "Democrats are waging "class warfare." They want to redistribute the wealth of rich Americans with handouts to the poor who don't deserve them!"

      Don't believe me? Just Google "redistribution of wealth" and try to hold your stomach from vomiting from the lies and distortions.

      Rick Warren is not railing against greed. He's attacking the poor for daring to overspend on their credit cards and the Democrats for daring to overspend on the country's. That is an absolute fact.

      Stop the party of Gut & Spend policies that gut our Earned Benefits programs like Social Security and Medicare and spends on tax breaks for the wealthy elite.

      by jillwklausen on Mon Apr 09, 2012 at 06:23:03 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  My most frequent comment is (0+ / 0-)

        that by definition class warfare is when the poor try to take from the rich and rich taking from the poor is just business. I was saying that long before Occupy Wall Street. Also, Warren's statement about not being for redistribution of wealth because the Bible doesn't completely ignores the Year of Jubilee, found in the same book of Leviticus used against gays.  I don't have blinders, and after rereading myself I see more of the insidiousness in Warren's statements.  But I also think that we need to say that greed is the issue here.  Indeed, in my mind it's the only issue.  The rich imagine that the one with the biggest bank account or the most toys will win in life. They are wrong

        Five years after I chose my username, happily living somewhere else.

        by Tenn Wisc Dem on Wed Apr 11, 2012 at 12:27:24 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Rick Warren is an instinct-driven person (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    joe wobblie, parsonsbeach

    who considers it a virtue that he doesn't want to fornicate with every attractive woman he sees.

    People to Wall Street: "LET OUR MONEY GO"

    by hannah on Mon Apr 09, 2012 at 11:04:44 AM PDT

  •  We Bought his Manifesto (0+ / 0-)

    a few years ago.

    Is anyone aware of a good right-wing book burning anytime soon?

    As I sail against the tide, for what I believe is right.

    by Toes on Mon Apr 09, 2012 at 11:08:57 AM PDT

  •  Rick Warren (3+ / 0-)

    is a con man. Nothing more nothing less.

    Bad is never good until worse happens

    by dark daze on Mon Apr 09, 2012 at 11:12:44 AM PDT

  •  Mark 6 (3+ / 0-)

    Jesus sent his disciples out in twos, told them not to carry any food, money or extra clothing. They were to live off the kindness of strangers and in return, comfort and heal all that they met.

    I  often seriously wonder if Warren, Ostein and the other prosperity gospel folks have ever even heard of this Jesus guy....

    Rick could wander a just few miles from his own churches and do exactly as the Disciples did: there is that much need right there in Orange and West Riverside Counties. He doesn't even need to wander deep into Riverside or San Bernardino counties nor north to LA.

    Great diary. Tipped and rec'd.

    © grover


    So if you get hit by a bus tonight, would you be satisfied with how you spent today, your last day on earth? Live like tomorrow is never guaranteed, because it's not. -- Me.

    by grover on Mon Apr 09, 2012 at 12:43:16 PM PDT

  •  I used to tell my students, (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    parsonsbeach, bluegrass50

    "Fair is not equal.  Fair is everyone getting what they need."  Even 4th graders understand that.  Rick Warren is no different than many politicians.  He says what he thinks people want to hear.  If Jesus had done that, he wouldn't have been killed and poor Rick wouldn't have been "saved."  

    -7.62, -7.28 "Hold fast to dreams, for if dreams die, life is a broken winged bird that cannot fly." -Langston Hughes

    by luckylizard on Mon Apr 09, 2012 at 02:15:44 PM PDT

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