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Tuition at public four-year colleges and universities rose 112.5 percent between 1990-1991 and 2010-2011. Here's a big part of the explanation:

  • From 1990-1991 to 2010-2011, total state appropriations rose from $65.1 billion to $75.6 billion. But state funding actually declined in relative terms.
  • If states had provided the same level of per capita support as in 1990-1991, they would have invested $80.7 billion in 2010-2011.
  • If states had provided the same level of funding per public, full-time equivalent student as in 1990-1991, total appropriations in 2009-2010 would have equaled approximately $102 billion, an amount 35.3 percent higher.
But Rep. Virginia Foxx (R-NC) has "little tolerance" for people with a lot of student loan debt, "because there's no reason for that." No reason except tuition doubling while wages stagnate. Rep. Paul Ryan (R-WI) thinks students should just work three jobs to pay for college, and he's putting his budget where his mouth is, proposing cuts that would cause a million students to lose Pell Grants. During his time atop the Republican presidential primary polling, Herman Cain advocated getting rid of all federal student aid. Rep. Louie Gohmert (R-TX) thinks the only reason President Obama would want to forgive student loans is to buy off voters, not address a national crisis.

This is the Republican version of "personal responsibility": If you don't start out rich, you'll just have to live the misery Republican policies inflict on you, and take the blame too.

Originally posted to Daily Kos Labor on Wed Apr 18, 2012 at 02:26 PM PDT.

Also republished by Daily Kos.

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Comment Preferences

  •  If ever you are not sure who the (5+ / 0-)

    republicans will blame for something, just figure out who is the victim, because the republicans always blame the victim.

    The definition of INSANITY: Voting Republican over and over and over and expecting the economy to get better.

    by pollbuster on Wed Apr 18, 2012 at 02:34:19 PM PDT

  •  See: Virginia Foxx, NC Rep (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Horace Boothroyd III

    She has no sympathy for students with college loans, because she and her husband both worked part time jobs to pay for their college educations 40 years ago.  If students now worked every hour other than when they were in class, they might have enough money to pay for college without borrowing!

    Talk about out of touch...

    "I like paying taxes. With them I buy civilization." - United States Supreme Court Associate Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes (Republican) -8.12, -5.18

    by ncarolinagirl on Wed Apr 18, 2012 at 02:58:07 PM PDT

    •  Hell, I worked all the way through college (4+ / 0-)

      Back in the early 1990s, and I chose a cheap state school, and I bagged groceries starting at 16, and I finished my degree in 3 years to avoid paying for 4 years of school.

      And I still took out loans, and would not have been able to do it without the loans.

      These people who equate loans with irresponsible lazy kids:  do they have mortgages?  Do they make car payments?  I thought taking out a loan was a sign of fiscal maturity, not some kind of sin.

      Linking to a news article is journalism in the same sense that putting a Big Mac on a paper plate is cooking.

      by Caj on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 02:18:13 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  There was a recent article about grad students (2+ / 0-)

    in the UC or CSU system who had lost their grants.  One of the officials was quite blase about it and noted that they could just replace them with student loans.  This all makes me so angry.  My partner and I are in horrible positions in regards to student loans.  I'm out of school and am in default.  She's bordering on default and can't get more loans to finish school and can't afford to pay them back.  I really don't know what to do.

    There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

    by AoT on Wed Apr 18, 2012 at 03:29:53 PM PDT

    •  Stop with the loans (0+ / 0-)

      I mean, um.

      A wise person makes their own decisions. An ignorant person follows public opinion.

      by independantman on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 02:07:20 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Thanks! I so glad you could help! (5+ / 0-)

        That was the most useful advice I've ever gotten!  Maybe if you went back and read what my actually problem was then you could say something pertinent to the situation.  Thanks for being glib about my problems though, I appreciate it.

        There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

        by AoT on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 02:17:00 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Do you know about IBR? (0+ / 0-)

      That's a really good program

      There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

      by upstate NY on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 02:19:04 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yeah, I have, I didn't get on it soon enough (0+ / 0-)

        my partner has sent Sally Mae five letter asking to switch to it and they have consistently said they didn't get them.  I'm just not sure what to do about being in default.

        There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

        by AoT on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 02:23:21 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Hmmm, I'm sorry (0+ / 0-)

          I don't know what happens with the default aspect. Talk to someone, they will be very helpful.

          That's my experience. I joined the IBR program then dropped it when my income rose above their minimal levels (and their levels are pretty high, I was on IBR while making $60k). If you're making $25k, I imagine your payments will be very reasonable, under $100 a month.

          There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

          by upstate NY on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 02:27:22 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I'm trying to figure out *who* to talk to now (0+ / 0-)

            I don't really trust the people that I defaulted on, but I don't know who else I could talk to.

            I'll be the first to admit that I'm at fault somewhat here, I should have been more on the spot, but at this point they're just telling me "you have to pay everything back now" which just ain't going to happen.

            There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

            by AoT on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 02:31:39 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  It's not totally your fault since the IBR (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              AoT

              program is under advertised. It's a great program though.

              You need to talk to Direct Gov't Loans. The William Ford program. They may require you to somehow meet the default payments before transferring over your loan to them (they have to buy it up). After that, you go on the IBR program.

              There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

              by upstate NY on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 02:43:22 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

  •  Rising tuition is making "secondary education" (0+ / 0-)

    available primarily (and soon ONLY) to the wealthy.

    Any middle class kid that wants to attend anything better than community college (and I am NOT knocking community colleges) will either have to drain their parents savings or accrue massive debt in order to finance their education.

    The part that confuses me is how the universities can keep raising tuition faster than the rate of inflation.  Doing that year after year is "unsustainable" and they should know it.

    "The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously." -- Hubert H. Humphrey

    by Candide08 on Thu Apr 19, 2012 at 05:21:12 AM PDT

    •  Exactly (0+ / 0-)

      We've been heading in this direction for a while. I don't think every wealthy person is a heartless oligarch, but heartless ones have been heading us in this direction for a while. For the children of the 99%, online or community college education and lower-level jobs will be fine. For the "real people," their own children will get to go to real university with lawns and libraries that create knowledge and research.

    •  asdf (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      sethtriggs
      The part that confuses me is how the universities can keep raising tuition faster than the rate of inflation.  Doing that year after year is "unsustainable" and they should know it.
      Sure it is, but in the mean time they will make a crap-ton of money.  

      One day there will be a correction downward, and they lower their prices, and it won't hurt them unless they did something stupid like invest all of their revenue building luxury dorms that the next generation of students will ignore.

      Linking to a news article is journalism in the same sense that putting a Big Mac on a paper plate is cooking.

      by Caj on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 02:10:15 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Making money? (0+ / 0-)

        These are non-profits.

        What money are they making?

        There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

        by upstate NY on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 02:22:27 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Even if you're a nonprofit, (0+ / 0-)

          You can make money.  You just don't make profit.

          Private universities have grossly increased tuition, and that money doesn't get tossed in a dumpster at the end of the year.  They put it toward their liquid assets and invest in infrastructure.

          Linking to a news article is journalism in the same sense that putting a Big Mac on a paper plate is cooking.

          by Caj on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 02:38:14 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Private schools are increasing tuition (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Caj, WillR, tardis10

            so that they can continue to redistribute it on a need-blind basis to poor students. They are taking money from rich people and giving it to poorer ones. The cost-per-student at many top privates is BELOW the cost-per-student at our top research publics. This means they are taking money from the pockets of rich parents and giving it to poorer students.

            I'm not really hung up on what's going on at the privates since they are less than 15% of the total around the country. I'm much more concerned with public schools.

            There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

            by upstate NY on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 02:46:02 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  I think state schools are affordable (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Caj, WillR

      Mine costs $4,900 a year in tuition.

      The average tuition for state schools is $7,000.

      Private schools make up only 15% of the total.

      Let's put this in some perspective.

      College education is still within reach for students in states other than a few like Michigan, Pennsylvania and California.

      I'd also encourage students to live at home and attend their local state in university (tough if you're from a rural area).

      I disagree about massive debt. $20-25k isn't too much to handle, especially with the new IBR program.

      There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

      by upstate NY on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 02:21:54 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  asdf (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        upstate NY, AoT, WillR
        I'd also encourage students to live at home and attend their local state in university (tough if you're from a rural area).
        Even if you don't live at home, living off-campus can be pretty cheap compared to "suitemating" in the new pricey dorms everyone is building.  In Binghamton, living in town is about half the cost of room and board.  It looks like room and board will only get more fancy with the new dorm construction taking over half the campus.
        I disagree about massive debt. $20-25k isn't too much to handle, especially with the new IBR program.
        It's not too much to handle, certainly, but it's debt they shouldn't and wouldn't have if state subsidies were appropriate.

        On the other hand, even if tuition was absolutely free, you'd still have some kids borrowing nearly $50,000 because they decide to put their room and board on credit too---and some kids put everything on credit.  I once advised a kid who managed to rack up a debt of $80K, at a university where tuition was 7K/year and room and board 11K/year.

        Linking to a news article is journalism in the same sense that putting a Big Mac on a paper plate is cooking.

        by Caj on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 02:43:53 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I like the idea of having some skin (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          WillR

          in the game if you're a student. some of my students work extremely hard for their educations. Others cry poverty about buying a $10 paperback for my class, and then I overhear them talking about playing the latest Call of Duty they just purchased.

          My experience at the University of Padova where I studied for a year is that if the tuition is entirely free, it's very easy for students to skip final exams and redo the semester again. Having a little bit of money at stake does give one some incentive.

          There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

          by upstate NY on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 02:48:50 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I guess you're right (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            upstate NY, WillR

            I worked some pretty crappy hours to get through school, and I did everything I could to take advantage of my time there.  In contrast, my first two roommates had everything paid for by mom and dad, and most days they slept in and played video games.  Both of them ended up on academic probation, now that I think of it.

            On the other hand, redoing a semester is a big sacrifice of time, not even counting the stigma of being held back a year.  

            Linking to a news article is journalism in the same sense that putting a Big Mac on a paper plate is cooking.

            by Caj on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 03:21:03 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  And of course redos screw up your rank/GPA. (0+ / 0-)

              Although, I suppose the effect of that varies by field.

              When I'm hiring for software development positions, a fresh out with more than a couple B's (or lower) in a core technical class is unlikely to get any attention unless there's something incredibly outstanding about them in some other way that I can see on paper (such as having become a highly respected contributing developer on a well known and widely used open source project).

              There is, of course, some consideration for the school (a B from a top tier school which isn't known for grade inflation might be overlooked a lot more easily than a B from a community college). There is also some consideration for when the lesser grades were in their academic career (a B in the freshman year is a lot less alarming than a B in the junior or senior year).

              I think too many students don't realize how much grades can affect the ability to get the best jobs out of school, at least in technical fields. Often, your first job can also have a substantial impact on your future career due to networking effects. If you can get a job working on an "A" team and you impress them, you end up with a network that expands through "A" players over the coming years. Unfortunately, if you end up a "B" team, no matter how much you impress them, you are mostly surrounded by "B" players and you are much more likely to end up in a "B" network much later in your career.

              It may not seem fair because some great people certainly get passed over because of their grades, but given the number of applicants one sometimes gets for jobs, such screening is a necessity. Also, I don't think it's unreasonable to suspect that if someone did poorly in school that it's often an indication of lack of commitment OR lack of intelligence relative to the field -- and in neither case do I want that person on my staff.

          •  Not really.... (0+ / 0-)

            I've seen students "professor shopping" at every one of the colleges I taught at.  No cost to transfer to another class and 80% refunds in the first three weeks of class.  This happened even at colleges with a 50% refund rule.

            As to kids bitching about the $10 paperback.  If that were the only book they were required to buy, it'd be silly to bitch.  But when one textbook costs sometimes $150, I'd bitch about a prof making me pay for even more books on top of that.  A $50 game sounds like a bargain after looking at the cost of say five $100+ textbooks and a couple hundred dollars in supplementary texts.

            Funny thing about the textbook racket, you can buy the previous editions of said hyper-expensive textbooks for $15 at Alibris or the Amazon marketplace.  Guess what, they're almost identical to the current editions.  I should know.  A few years ago I did a comparison out of curiosity.  Outside of a few pictures and the preface, nearly identical.

            Please feel free to HR me for my informative and argumentative nature. 'To know what is right and to do it are two different things.' - Chushingura, a tale of The Forty-Seven Ronin

            by rbird on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 03:25:14 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I have ZERO sympathy for said student (0+ / 0-)

              Sorry.

              There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

              by upstate NY on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 03:35:18 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  non sequitur (0+ / 0-)

                Where does sympathy come into this?  Those are the realities of teaching and student finances.

                Even at significant financial cost, students will continue to professor-shop for the easiest classes.

                The American university textbook system is a racket.  It's rational to attempt to hold down personal costs when subjected to an elaborate racket designed to part you from your money.  It is rational to complain at increased costs resulting from a racket.  Your $10 paperback might have been unfairly perceived by students as part of the textbook racket.

                Your sympathy or lack of sympathy is not required.

                Please feel free to HR me for my informative and argumentative nature. 'To know what is right and to do it are two different things.' - Chushingura, a tale of The Forty-Seven Ronin

                by rbird on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 03:53:03 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Yes it is required (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  WillR

                  I help students who make it known they are having difficulty. I may make copies a=or lend a book or figure out an alternative.

                  When a student doesn't have my sympathy and I know they haven't done the work, there is a result.

                  There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

                  by upstate NY on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 04:02:35 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Man, you still don't get it.... (0+ / 0-)

                    This isn't about you and your laudable efforts to help students in need.  This is about the reality surrounding you.

                    Whether you like it or not, students professor-shop.  It doesn't matter whether there are economic costs to the students who professor-shop.  It doesn't matter that they might have "a little skin in the game."  Other considerations are driving the process.

                    Whether you like it or not, the university textbook industry is a racket.  That may be why your students bitched about a $10 paperback.  When being forced to pay upwards of $700 or more a semester for books, human nature pretty much guarantees that even a tiny added amount to that sum will elicit a response.

                    Sympathy has nothing to do with my part in this discussion.  I'm glad you are sympathetic to at least a few of your students.  That's not the point.

                    Please feel free to HR me for my informative and argumentative nature. 'To know what is right and to do it are two different things.' - Chushingura, a tale of The Forty-Seven Ronin

                    by rbird on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 04:16:12 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Honestly I can't even figure out (0+ / 0-)

                      what your statement about professor shop is all about.

                      We read books in my class. That's what the class is all about. If you aren't reading books, you're wasting your time and have no business being there. There's no point even being in the class otherwise.

                      Paperbacks cost about the same as what I paid for them back in the mid 1980s, so this isn't even a question of increased costs.

                      There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

                      by upstate NY on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 04:21:39 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Disingenuous (0+ / 0-)

                        I'm on about the cumulative cost to the student resulting from the racket of the textbook industry, and you counter with the price of paperback books?

                        Let's take a specific example, a economics textbook.  Economics (McGraw-Hill Economics) 18th Edition, $175.78 at Amazon.  Multiply that by five, and that's the bookstore costs for just one semester.

                        Even your premise that the cost of paperbacks hasn't increased is just silly.  One specific example do.  I have my Portable Machiavelli sitting in the bookcase next to my desk.  It's a copy I bought new in the 1980s.  The price on the back:  $5.95.  Price of the latest edition at Amazon?  $13.60.

                        You've never heard of professor shopping?  Really?  It's the common term for students who drop out of a course taught by a difficult instructor, only to enroll the same course the next semester under an easy instructor.  It's even easier to do now.

                        With the proliferation of Web sites that allow students to praise or disparage their instructors depending on their whims, instructors across the country essentially are becoming subjects of comparison shopping by prospective students. Using a sample survey of 258 students majoring in business at a public university on the west coast of the United States, the author investigated the extent of instructor-shopping behavior via browsing and posting comments on the Internet as well as the students' motivations behind such activities. An analysis of data suggests that nearly one third of students engage in online information sharing before signing up with a particular professor and that factors related to grade expectation affect the propensity to shop on the internet.
                        http://www.eric.ed.gov/...

                        Please feel free to HR me for my informative and argumentative nature. 'To know what is right and to do it are two different things.' - Chushingura, a tale of The Forty-Seven Ronin

                        by rbird on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 04:45:01 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  What's silly is this whole entire discussion (0+ / 0-)

                          I didn't say I don't know what professor shopping is. I wondered what relevance it had to any of this.

                          By the way, in real money, that $6 book from the 1980s is $16.70 in current prices.

                          But as I said, most of the books I order are $10-12, and I recall paying that for books in the late 1980s when I was in school. Machiavelli is a pretty popular book, but the books I read back then and the ones I teach are trade paperbacks published by the likes of Grove and New Directions.

                          There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

                          by upstate NY on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 08:45:31 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                    •  asdf (0+ / 0-)
                      Whether you like it or not, the university textbook industry is a racket.  That may be why your students bitched about a $10 paperback.
                      So what you're saying is, we should take the $10 paperback, repackage it as a $50 XBoX CD, and kids will stop complaining because then it's no longer part of the textbook racket.

                      I just hope the kid doesn't balk at the idea of spending $10 worth of his time studying outside of class.

                      Linking to a news article is journalism in the same sense that putting a Big Mac on a paper plate is cooking.

                      by Caj on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 05:09:50 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  No, what he's saying is that students get gouged (0+ / 0-)

                        on text book prices so they always complain about them.  I don't know what paperbacks you're talking about, but I've seen school bookstores sell tiny little things for ten bucks used back before you could go on the interet and find anything.

                        It sounds like you do your best to keep the costs down, although that depends on how many paperbacks on would have to buy for your class I suppose, but I had semesters where my books cost almost 2/3 of my tuition. The textbook industry is a racket.

                        There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

                        by AoT on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 06:56:29 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Is this really possible? (0+ / 0-)

                          I mean, Cal is $12k tuition, $6k for one semester.

                          $4k worth of books?

                          I order about 9 books for my class and students pay about $120 a semester for those books brand new. If used, they cut costs in half. I don't think that's asking too much. After all, if we're not going to read books, then why are we there at all?

                          There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

                          by upstate NY on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 08:41:41 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                  •  I hate to ask this question... (0+ / 0-)

                    ...as it sounds like you're being very reasonable...

                    But, wouldn't copying a textbook and providing the copy to a student be a copyright violation? Or, are you talking only about short extracts that (arguably?) fall under fair use? Is there an exception in copyright law for academic use that I'm missing?

                    •  No, it would not. (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      WillR

                      There is an exception to the copyright rule. If you need something for immediate use, you get a one off. I could not go and copy the same book the next semester. But, in immediate circumstances, you're allowed to do it I've had bookstore trouble with distributors where even after 4 months they did not send the book in, so I simply copied it for the entire class. One use is all you get. You can't repeat this.

                      There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

                      by upstate NY on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 08:40:00 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Thanks... (0+ / 0-)

                        ...for the info. I don't know hardly anything about copyright law. (And, have mixed feelings about what I do know.)

                      •  This is absolutely not true. (0+ / 0-)

                        Copying an entire book is 100% against copyright law, even if it's for personal use, let alone to give to someone else.
                        Here is a good outline for what constitutes fair use.
                        The relevant line:

                        A chapter from a book (never the entire book).

                        "Lone catch of the moon, the roots of the sigh of an idea there will be the outcome may be why?"--from a spam diary entitled "The Vast World."

                        by bryduck on Mon Apr 23, 2012 at 08:18:11 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  You're wrong on this (0+ / 0-)

                          A one-time emergency copy rule allows faculty to do this under exigent circumstances.

                          There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

                          by upstate NY on Mon Apr 23, 2012 at 09:27:17 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Links, please. (0+ / 0-)

                            Mine is pretty explicit in a couple of places about your position.

                            "Lone catch of the moon, the roots of the sigh of an idea there will be the outcome may be why?"--from a spam diary entitled "The Vast World."

                            by bryduck on Mon Apr 23, 2012 at 10:13:53 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  We had our copyright office address this (0+ / 0-)

                            and point blank, for academic purposes, there is an emergency one-off rule. It's all over the internet in paraphrase if you search for "one use" emergency copyright, it's for academics, but I can't find copyright statutes. Your link as well was just a listing, hardly comprehensive.

                            This article references the classroom exemption:

                            http://chronicle.com/...

                            But the publishers are contesting the exemption in so far as the teacher put things up for electronic distribution.

                            Nonetheless, we had a workshop on copyright law, and we were told that in emergency situations, we could copy as much as we wanted as long as we didn't repeat the same problem in any other semester.

                            In my case, I tried to get the copyrights to an out-of-print Orwell book of essays, but his foundation refused to let us copy them, so that provided the exigent circumstances that allowed me to copy the entire book for my students.

                            There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

                            by upstate NY on Mon Apr 23, 2012 at 12:58:05 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  There is no such comprehensive (0+ / 0-)

                            specification of copyright, because none exists; there are only guidelines, and in all of them, the use of an entire work is forbidden under any circumstances. Your link even states that implicitly, by saying,

                            Under copyright law, the doctrine of fair use allows some reproduction of copyrighted material, with a classroom exemption permitting an unspecified amount to be reproduced for educational purposes.
                            Note the use of the terms, "some reproduction" and "an unspecified amount." Yes, it is theoretical that, because it is "unspecified", that could be taken to mean the "whole" amount, but nobody thinks that who has read the Fair Use statute.
                            Here is another, completely pertinent set of guidelines from Wisconsin, where you can see the hallowed "Four Factors", which are taken directly from the statute itself.
                            The classroom exemption is just that, use in the classroom itself, not in copying the book for anyone, even enrolled students, to use outside the classroom. So yes, if you wanted the students to access/read the work in class, that would work. Otherwise, no.
                            I'm not sure what your workshop advisors were getting at, but the statutes only allow for emergency exemptions for copying music here, and even then, the institution is supposed to buy a copy "in due course."

                            "Lone catch of the moon, the roots of the sigh of an idea there will be the outcome may be why?"--from a spam diary entitled "The Vast World."

                            by bryduck on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 09:29:48 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  These were lawyers (0+ / 0-)

                            They were the ones running the workshop on behalf of the university. I mentioned to them my problem with the Orwell book, and they mentioned the classroom exemption in such a case.

                            There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

                            by upstate NY on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 09:42:31 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  IANAL, but I would be verrry wary of (0+ / 0-)

                            lawyers who advocate breaking the law. You said that the rightsholders themselves refused to give you permission to do what you wanted, and they told you to go ahead anyway? Yes, the likelihood of you/your school being sued over it is remote, but it is real, and this was a pretty darn black/white violation of their rights, since they explicitly rejected your request.

                            "Lone catch of the moon, the roots of the sigh of an idea there will be the outcome may be why?"--from a spam diary entitled "The Vast World."

                            by bryduck on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 09:48:41 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  The rights holders refused to give the (0+ / 0-)

                            copyrights clearing house permission. In effect, myself.

                            I was well within copyright law however afterward since their refusal effectively limited what could be discussed of a major figure.

                            As I also said, the book was not in print at the time.

                            There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

                            by upstate NY on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 10:26:02 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Their disregard for your (0+ / 0-)

                            desire to discuss the topic is irrelevant to legality; copyright laws aren't designed or enforced according to academic needs, unfortunately. It was within their right to refuse permission, otherwise there is no point in acquiring/maintaining the copyright in the first place, regardless of what that does to public or academic discourse. Its commercial status as being out of print is similarly irrelevant, (again) unfortunately.

                            "Lone catch of the moon, the roots of the sigh of an idea there will be the outcome may be why?"--from a spam diary entitled "The Vast World."

                            by bryduck on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 12:11:49 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  It is absolutely not irrelevant (0+ / 0-)

                            The classroom exemption is all about academic needs.

                            This was addressed in the very link I sent you and is part of the considerations of copyright.

                            Did you read the link?

                            There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

                            by upstate NY on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 04:23:38 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  By the way, did you read the article I linked to? (0+ / 0-)

                            Specifically this:

                            Congress in 1976, in a rare bolt of wisdom, specifically exempted "multiple copies for classroom use" from copyright infringement. That's right. Congress did not exempt "portions of copies for classroom use." It did not exempt "one-time, minimal numbers of copies for classroom use." It did not exempt "1,000 words for classroom use." It exempted "multiple copies for classroom use."

                            There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

                            by upstate NY on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 09:48:55 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  For classroom use. Yes. (0+ / 0-)

                            Use in the classroom. We are agreed.

                            "Lone catch of the moon, the roots of the sigh of an idea there will be the outcome may be why?"--from a spam diary entitled "The Vast World."

                            by bryduck on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 09:50:11 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  This is what is called the (0+ / 0-)

                            "face to face" exemption, and it is not metaphorical.

                            "Lone catch of the moon, the roots of the sigh of an idea there will be the outcome may be why?"--from a spam diary entitled "The Vast World."

                            by bryduck on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 09:53:16 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  So, where's the disconnect? (0+ / 0-)

                            And, what if I taught an online course?

                            There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

                            by upstate NY on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 10:23:57 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Online is not face-face by definition. (0+ / 0-)

                            No go. My own work example: A library is not an "educational institution", by law, so I as a librarian, may not teach a class and use anything without permission, face to face regardless.

                            "Lone catch of the moon, the roots of the sigh of an idea there will be the outcome may be why?"--from a spam diary entitled "The Vast World."

                            by bryduck on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 12:15:05 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  As I said in my earlier post, (0+ / 0-)

                            if you wanted to have your students use the text in class, during appointed class hours (seriously--that's how this is supposed to work!), you then get to use the face-face exemption. If not, then not.

                            "Lone catch of the moon, the roots of the sigh of an idea there will be the outcome may be why?"--from a spam diary entitled "The Vast World."

                            by bryduck on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 12:16:45 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Face-to-face exemption? (0+ / 0-)

                            Link for that please.

                            There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

                            by upstate NY on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 04:24:25 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

            •  Upstate said "cry poverty"... (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              upstate NY

              ...and then noted that these students seemed to have money to buy games.

              That's quite different than "bitching".

              A student who is buying $50 games has no reason to cry poverty over a $10 paperback (or an overpriced $150 textbook for that matter). They obviously have elective money to spend on idle entertainment. They of course have every right and reason to gripe about the textbook racket.

              A student who is having trouble figuring out how to buy enough rice and beans to sustain themselves and is not spending money on idle entertainment has every reason to cry poverty over the $10 paperback (and, of course, the $150 textbook) and to bitch about the textbook racket. Although, maybe the time they spend bitching would be better spent trying to get another hour's of work.

              I'm not defending the textbook racket - it's gotten absurd. I wish professors and used book sellers could get together and work around the problem. Perhaps an online vendor could guarantee a professor that X copies of used book Y of edition Z in condition A will be reserved for that professor's class for two weeks at the beginning of the term. Students would then be able to access that pool by a unique code given to each student by the professor. This would allow a professor to pick a past edition without the fear of students being unable to obtain the past edition.

    •  Tuition rises above inflation, but costs don't. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Candide08

      What you should be looking at is costs.

      Costs are rising below the rate of inflation.

      Tuition is rising well above. This is because tuition never covered the cost of attendance.

      In my state, they pay $18k per student for elementary education. That's the cost of educating a kindergartner.

      This puts things into perspective when it comes to the relationship of tuition in Higher Ed to actual cost.

      by removing state subsidy from public education, the tuition rises to meet actual costs, but that doesn't mean actual costs are going up, they are not.

      Pennsylvania residents would probably be shocked to learn that the state university, PSU, gets 4% of its budget from the taxpayer, and that the current gov. wants to cut that by 50%. State taxpayers might well want to consider that the school is charging them $15k in tuition but somehow delivering $35k expenditures per student. it means the school itself is paying to educate the citizens of Pennsylvania, and not the taxpayers.

      There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

      by upstate NY on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 02:36:35 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I'm sorry, but market rates for higher education (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        rbird, vacantlook, Candide08

        are a scam.  What's happening is that the generations that have already benefited from cheap higher ed, either directly or indirectly, are now telling folks in college that they are lazy because the price of college is going up.  The whole point of the state school systems is that they were suppose to be affordable, we need to quit pretending like the market is going to solve anything.  It has failed.

        There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

        by AoT on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 02:40:56 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I'm not sure what you are addressing (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          AoT

          I wrote that costs aren't going up. Schools are not spending more money. So how is that a scam?

          There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

          by upstate NY on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 02:59:24 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  We are eating our seed corn (5+ / 0-)

    In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice; but in practice, there always is a difference. - Yogi Berra En théorie, il n'y a aucune différence entre théorie et pratique, mais en pratique, il y a toujours une différence. - Yogi Berra

    by blue aardvark on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 02:02:27 PM PDT

  •  Forgiving Student Loan Debt (0+ / 0-)

    Is this good or our people, our country, our government?\

    Link on this...just one take, of course:  http://www.csmonitor.com/...

    A wise person makes their own decisions. An ignorant person follows public opinion.

    by independantman on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 02:04:20 PM PDT

    •  This is true: (0+ / 0-)
      Regardless of whether the loan is a government or private loan, forgiveness will mean someone loses. Either the taxpayers in aggregate in the case of federal loans or private lenders on private loans
      The idea of providing blanket forgiveness for student loans is pretty ridiculous.

      But the bigger issue, the one NOT being addressed, is the issue of investment in the future of the country. We, nationally, consistently have avoided the debate over what we believe is important for our future, and how to get there. We consistently have avoided the discussion over what constitutes a wise investment in our future. What investments will improve the national welfare? Environment, health, safety including food safety and defense, education, stable markets... These are just a few arenas that would contribute to growth for the majority of us.

      Not all returns on investment are easily measurable in dollars and cents.

      Investment in education toward that growth should include public (taxpayer) dollars, probably private dollars, and some evening of the economic playing field for students, to broaden opportunity.

      If maintaining student loan rates as they currently are for an extended period provides broad economic stimulus and constitutes a wise investment in individuals, it should be considered seriously.

      Be well, eat well, smile, laugh, and be sure to tell the ones you love just that! ~ shermanesq

      by Melanie in IA on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 02:21:03 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I'm against it (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Caj

      Right now, the gov't issues subbed loans. If students are allowed to go bankrupt right out of school (I agree that someone paying for awhile who is older and is going bankrupt should be allowed to renege) then the loans are no different than grants. It will end the student loan program and put school further out of reach.

      I don't see the need for forgiving student loan debt when we now have the IBR program that allows you to forgive part of the loan based on your income.

      There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

      by upstate NY on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 02:24:13 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I don't think so. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Melanie in IA

      Student loan forgiveness only helps the college-educated strata of society.  I would rather spend that kind of money helping the other 2/3 of the population, who are hurting the most.

      The other problem with loan forgiveness is handling people who grossly overspent and overborrowed---who would walk away with most of the money.  If you had a student loan forgiveness program, it should be limited to, say, the mean cost of in-state tuition in your state during the time you went to college.  

      Linking to a news article is journalism in the same sense that putting a Big Mac on a paper plate is cooking.

      by Caj on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 02:31:36 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  What we need to do is have increased (0+ / 0-)

        financial support for people who can't afford college but have the grades to get in.  We have a number of generations who are screwing over those in, or just out of or about to be in, college by denying them the subsidized education that was a right for everyone in the past.

        There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

        by AoT on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 02:50:46 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  College is elitist (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Melanie in IA

    and kids tend to get all liberal and stuff while there.

  •  Why should Republicans give a flying fuck (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    AoT, roberta g, rbird

    about college students? the ass holes are doing everything they can to disenfranchise them.

    Fuck Republicans. Hateful fucks.

    "Repeatedly he [Voltaire] dwelt on the folly and credulousness of the masses and the selfishness and unscrupulousness of the ruling few." 'nuff said.

    by caseynm on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 02:09:34 PM PDT

  •  Who needs education . . . (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    rbird, tardis10

    when it's so much more cost effective to put your future in the hands of Republicans and God's intelligent design?  

  •  I wonder how many students think this way (0+ / 0-)

    First of all, how many post-graduate students aren't doing that work because they can get "student loans" to keep them in "the system"?  Second, what portion of the young people that went to college under the "student-loan" program think that they really, truly won't have to pay back their hundred thousand dollar (or there abouts) loans?

    We just cannot continue to think that because education is a big advantage for America we (the government) should pay for so many students' education.  

    Too many kids are getting education loans to exist because they do not have any other way to exist.

    Link?  Nah.  Personal experince?  You betcha.

    A wise person makes their own decisions. An ignorant person follows public opinion.

    by independantman on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 02:12:45 PM PDT

    •  So you have personal experience in taking (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      dirkster42

      student loans because you think you won't have to pay them back?  Or you have anecdotal experiences with people who didn't think ahead about paying back large loans?

      There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

      by AoT on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 02:20:06 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Let's not go overboard here (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Caj

      The average student who takes out loans graduates with $20k of debt.

      That should be manageable.

      There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

      by upstate NY on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 02:25:14 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  It's up to 25k now (0+ / 0-)

        http://projectonstudentdebt.org/...

        From 20k about 5 years ago.

        There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

        by AoT on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 02:28:13 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  That's on the margins (0+ / 0-)

          I'd say you're entering the land land of no return if you're near $30k. Wouldn't advise it.

          Then again, subbed loans are capped at $5.6k a year, so you shouldn't be taking out more than that anyway (says someone with many years of grad school, $60k in loans, $30k for spouse).

          There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

          by upstate NY on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 02:32:33 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  No, the average debt of college seniors with debt (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            tardis10

            who graduated in 2010 was 25k up from 20k in 2007. Those numbers are going to go up drastically what with the California schools raising rates drastically.

            There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

            by AoT on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 02:36:34 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  How can they go up? (0+ / 0-)

              Gov't loans are capped.

              Non-subbed loans are not capped.

              There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

              by upstate NY on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 02:41:23 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  It doesn't just include subbed loans. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                tardis10

                And when you add to that the reduction in classes that a lot of public schools are experiencing you have a situation where people are forced to stay in school longer than they would otherwise and thus need to take out more loans.

                There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

                by AoT on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 02:44:13 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  This is the craziness of the situation (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  AoT

                  That schools are holding costs in line by cutting faculty lines and classes, thereby holding tuition down (than it otherwise would be without the cuts) but increasing the total payout by students.

                  The President of California said to students at orientation, "You will pay three times more than your predecessors but you will not receive the quality of education that they did!"

                  Welcome!!!

                  The net result of this, after faculty and administrators realize that Higher Education in America will never be funded well again, is that we will lower standards. We will let you graduate on time by removing upper level requirements, and allowing you to finish with fewer courses.

                  Lowering standards for a degree is the only possible solution to the problem in my estimation.

                  There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

                  by upstate NY on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 02:56:49 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  The solution is to properly fund colleges (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    rbird, vacantlook

                    Simple as that.  There are millions of people in this country who have benefited from government subsidized higher education and now you have a bunch of those people refusing to allow other to benefit as well.

                    There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

                    by AoT on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 03:08:36 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  You're in New York state I take it, judging (0+ / 0-)

                      by your comment about Binghamton.

                      Well, have a look at the college pedigree of New York leadership over the generations.

                      Dean Skelos
                      Hilary Clinton
                      Sheldon Silver
                      Joe Bruno
                      Mario Cuomo
                      Eliot Spitzer
                      Andrew Cuomo
                      George Pataki
                      Kirsten Gillibrand
                      Chuck Schumer
                      Patrick Moynihan
                      Alphonse D'Amato
                      Rudy Giuliani
                      Michael Bloomberg

                      None of these people attended public colleges. Typical of the attitudes of northeasterners when it comes to public Higher Education, they give short shrift to the needs of average public school students. Andrew Cuomo is a disaster.

                      Just to give an example, these pols make backroom deals funding new buildings for Canisius College and new law schools for St. john's Fisher College in Rochester while taking funding away from UB law or killing building proposals for SUNY Stony Brook.

                      There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

                      by upstate NY on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 03:19:31 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  No, california (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        rbird

                        I think these comments win for most confusion about who said what, lol.

                        I do see what you're saying about the leadership, but they were elected by large numbers of people who did  benefit.  We see a similar situation with Social Security, where there are all sorts of deals that are being discussed that spare the older generations and screw over folks my age and younger.

                        There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

                        by AoT on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 03:23:42 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  If you're in California (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          AoT, tardis10

                          forgive everything I said. There are huge problems with Higher Education in your state. In Cali. it is unaffordable.

                          I spent a week at U. Cal. San Diego this year with people from all over the world who marveled at the campus and the resources. and then we spoke to the morose faculty and the students who couldn't break a smile in sunny San Diego.

                          Just as an FYI, I wrote this in another diary:

                          Let me break down things a bit here. Have a look at some stats I found on Cal-Berkeley's page regarding finances there:

                          In 1990, the state contributed $16,100 per student.
                          In 2007, it was $9,500.

                          By 2010, another $1.15 billion had been cut from the state higher education budget for the U. Cal's. Current state budget is now $2.6 billion.

                          Average salaries for faculty at Cal. Berkeley have gone up from $51,000 in 1985 to $79,000 in 2001.

                          Cal-Berkeley's total budget went from 1.224 billion in 1997 to its current 1.59 billion in 2010.

                          I want someone to look at those numbers and then blame student loans or market demand for the rise in tuition.

                          Faculty pay hasn't increased above the rate of inflation. Costs are below inflation. And then you look at that massive $6,600 cut in state funding per student, and it's no wonder tuition has risen so much.

                          Even worse, rising costs of benefits for employees (higher health care) and new technology (ultra-expensive wired campuses) sucks up more money, and you know you're getting less education while paying more.

                          There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

                          by upstate NY on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 03:43:03 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

    •  Some tiny percentage, probably. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      AoT, tardis10

      Just like Reagan's faux welfare queens in cadillacs.....

      "Repeatedly he [Voltaire] dwelt on the folly and credulousness of the masses and the selfishness and unscrupulousness of the ruling few." 'nuff said.

      by caseynm on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 02:29:20 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  We can't afford to think that we cannot (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      AoT

      afford to educate our kids through college, and if there is any one thing worth mortgaging our future for, it is absolutely our kids' education and future.

      Why would you say this?

      "Repeatedly he [Voltaire] dwelt on the folly and credulousness of the masses and the selfishness and unscrupulousness of the ruling few." 'nuff said.

      by caseynm on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 02:39:05 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I sort of fell into that category decades ago . . (0+ / 0-)

      "existing" off of student loans, because it wasn't as sweaty as getting a job.

      I was just lucky I didn't dig a bigger hole than I could eventually climb out of.  

      It would be a real gamble trying to pull that off in today's reality.

      •  Assuming you can get a job (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        rbird

        I tried finding a part time job when I was in school with no luck.  It also depends where you are.  I went to school in San Francisco and I had trouble paying for living expenses when I was working full time and not going to school.

        There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

        by AoT on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 03:20:50 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Gee, people had trouble with school/jobs (0+ / 0-)

          Never heard that before.

          Isn't it tough that people have to struggle in America?

          Wow.  That shouldn't ever happen and everyone should be able to just go to school and not have to do anything to pay for it or struggle.

          Amereica has changed since i grew up.

          For the better?  Um...no.  Not EVEN.

          A wise person makes their own decisions. An ignorant person follows public opinion.

          by independantman on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 03:51:45 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  You really have no idea what you're talking about (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            6ZONite, sethtriggs, tardis10

            You clearly want to pretend like all of this is the fault of the individuals with the loans when it clearly isn't just their fault.  When you went to school it was heavily subsidized, now you're advocating that other don't get the help you do.  Hypocrite.

            There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

            by AoT on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 03:56:48 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Who's been in charge? (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            6ZONite, AoT

            Normally I wouldn't bother with a troll, but your post brought up an interesting question.  Things have gotten worse.  So who's been in charge, whose ideas have dominated American politics for the last thirty-odd years?

            Working backwards....

            Obama
            Bush 2
            Clinton
            Bush 1
            Reagan

            Three out of the last five presidents have been Republican.  I lost count of the number of times Republicans have been in control of one or both houses of Congress.

            Republican ideas dominate the political discourse of this country and have for time out of mind.  They've been embraced by politicians from the federal level all the way down to city governments.  Hell, Liberal ideas can't even be heard for the most part in MSM media.  

            So who's been in charge while America declines?

            Please feel free to HR me for my informative and argumentative nature. 'To know what is right and to do it are two different things.' - Chushingura, a tale of The Forty-Seven Ronin

            by rbird on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 04:01:57 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  No kidding . . . (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          AoT, sethtriggs

          odds are that you would have much difficulty finding a job in today's job market, regardless of where you live. I don't disagree with that. And, I would be first in line to live off of student loans if I found it the best way forward.  I've done it before, and I would do it again. Those are the facts.

        •  asdf (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          AoT
          I went to school in San Francisco and I had trouble paying for living expenses when I was working full time and not going to school.
          I have no idea what advice I could give to someone going to school in the big city---where simply living and working full time can be tough due to the cost of rent.  If I was in that situation, I would probably give up and go to a state college outside the city.  

          Linking to a news article is journalism in the same sense that putting a Big Mac on a paper plate is cooking.

          by Caj on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 05:22:49 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I was living there before I went to school (0+ / 0-)

            and grew up in the bay area and always wanted to go to school in SF.  At least I got a philosophy degree(and one class short of a polisci degree) so I'm highly skilled at arguing on the internet ;)

            There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

            by AoT on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 06:49:08 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  I hope nut cases like Virginia Foxx... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    rbird, tardis10

    ...get not just defeated but totally humiliated in November. Any one who says what she said about rising college tuition costs has no business holding office anywhere, even as a dog catcher.

    "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." --Gandhi

    by alaprst on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 02:23:49 PM PDT

  •  Misery is irrelevant (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    rbird

    in the GOP. I mean, Romney, Cain, Bush, and their stooges are not miserable, an nobody else is anything but a cog in a money machine. Does America need an educated populace? I education the best education we can make for the future of America, and American business? Maybe, but so what -- "American business" is so 20th century. Let other countries educate their people and we'll exploit them just like we exploited our own.

    This is not a new attitude among the Republicans. Just more naked. The only antidote to the poison is to eradicate the political party that keeps spewing it.

    In America, a rising tide lifts all yachts and drowns the workers who built them.

    by DaveW on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 02:24:02 PM PDT

  •  Keep people dumb so they're easier to control (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    roberta g, rbird

    And more likely to vote Republican. The ideal system is the elite at the top who can afford to educate their children, and the dumb masses who happily vote themselves into corporate slavery.

    Romney 2012 - Let them eat cake!

    by Fordmandalay on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 02:34:52 PM PDT

    •  We're talking about college, not high school (0+ / 0-)

      I occasionally hear the sentiment that our corporatocracy is destroying college to keep people too dumb to vote intelligently or understand what's happening in the world.

      However, you don't need a college degree in engineering to figure out how to vote, and you're supposed to learn critical thinking and literacy in K-12, not college.

      People who "only" went to high school are not dumb masses.  That's the sort of 1%er elitism we should be trying to combat.

      Linking to a news article is journalism in the same sense that putting a Big Mac on a paper plate is cooking.

      by Caj on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 03:47:15 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Hmmmm, but there are certain bits of (0+ / 0-)

        anecdotal stats that make you wonder. The majority of middle class high school grads vote Republican, while the majority of middle class college grads vote Democrat.

        Judging by my high school grads these days, very few have read a work of literature or taken a gov't civics class. I survey these students at a top research university, and I'm always surprised by how little background they have.

        There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

        by upstate NY on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 04:08:06 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Does college really fix this? (0+ / 0-)
          Judging by my high school grads these days, very few have read a work of literature or taken a gov't civics class.
          In college I never had to take a civics class, and the only literature class I took was to meet the requirements for the honors program.  Certainly the grand majority of my knowledge of literature comes from high school.

          Most of a college student's undergraduate career is focused on in-major courses, and gen-ed requirements do not guarantee that someone will read a lot of, or in fact any, works of literature.   A university education is supposed to produce a well-rounded student, but that really only happens if you take the initiative; if you simply meet the prescribed requirements for a degree, you will not be any better at critical thinking despite having a degree in whatever.

          Linking to a news article is journalism in the same sense that putting a Big Mac on a paper plate is cooking.

          by Caj on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 05:04:03 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I don't know where or when you went to college (0+ / 0-)

            but everyone has to take critical thinking and numerous other classes.  Only about half of your classes, and at very most 2/3, are in your major at SFSU.  The california system requires 2 years of classes before you get into upper division stuff that's specific to your major.  There was definitely a civics requirement.

            There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

            by AoT on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 06:45:47 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Your college education sounds very unlike mine (0+ / 0-)

            and unlike the schools I teach in. At the schools I know, 8-10 classes were enough for the major, and the rest were electives with the caveat that, for Humanities kids, one had to be math and one science. Otherwise, choices are wide open.

            In college you have more opportunities to explore new modes of thinking and new disciplines than you otherwise would if you were working directly out of high school. Anyone's experience with this is anecdotal of course (I worked summer jobs and part-time during the school year with high school grads) but I was just citing the demographics for voting.

            There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

            by upstate NY on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 08:51:27 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I think you misunderstood my point (0+ / 0-)
              At the schools I know, 8-10 classes were enough for the major, and the rest were electives with the caveat that, for Humanities kids, one had to be math and one science. Otherwise, choices are wide open.
              That's basically the same here, and where I went to college it was the same:  a substantial Gen-Ed requirement with a wide choice of courses among multiple required categories.

              But "wide open" also means that you also have the freedom to avoid subjects, and that you can go through college without any substantial exposure to literature, say, or logic, or civics.  

              There is very little in the way of mandated exposure to any specific subject, aside from core competency requirements which essentially review what you were supposed to learn in high school.

              Which is my point:  you can't say that college produces a society of people who understand the issues better than high school graduates, because college is far too elective to produce a population that understands any one specific thing.

              Linking to a news article is journalism in the same sense that putting a Big Mac on a paper plate is cooking.

              by Caj on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 08:08:38 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Gotcha (0+ / 0-)

                I was only using literature and civics as a default, to signal types of Humanities courses. I wasn't referring to them as the the very things that make people smarter or give them critical thinking. presumably, any Humanities courses can help with that.

                There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

                by upstate NY on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 05:07:13 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

  •  How Long Do People Put Up With This? (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    AoT, rbird, tardis10

    How many times do the citizens of this country have to be slapped in the mouth before they do something about it? It's really sickening that Americans will take it over and over again, sing fucking folks songs and then take some more and to what end? They vote these pricks into office over and over again while the Democrats fall all over themselves to play-by-the-rules or be bipartisan.

    There is a war being waged against the majority of people in this country by the Republican Party and conservatives. That is not rhetoric, it's the truth. Time to stop playing by rules that the other side doesn't play by and start sticking it to these bastards wherever the soft part is. All of them have dirt somewhere -- time to find it or create it.

    This head movie makes my eyes rain.

    by The Lone Apple on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 02:38:48 PM PDT

  •  Once and for all, student loans don't cause rises (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sethtriggs, tardis10

    in tuition.

    That's is a right-wing meme.

    There is little if any correlation between the rise in student loans and the rise in tuition. Studies have been done on this, and I'll link to my diary on the subject below.

    The basic thing to remember is that the cap on loans hasn't risen very much over decades. The cap used to be at $3,000 in the early 1980s and $5,000 in the mid 1990s. It's now at $5,600. That's not a big rise. The rise in inflation is due to the lack of state funding, and the correlation there is much more evident.

    In my diary, I showed how the cuts in state funding per student for Cal-Berkeley over the last 15 years were almost exactly equal to the rise in tuition cost per student.

    We need to be careful to disambiguate the rise in gov't subsidized student loans from the rise in private loans. Lumping the two together creates distractions. The huge total of student loans now come from a lot of waste in the for-profit sector. Many of these schools are scams with CEO's making $30-40 million a year and offering little if any instruction. Diploma mills. The vast majority of defaults are due to students at these schools. Defaults from non-profit students are still at a rather low rate of 4-6%.

    The idea that student loans inflate tuition is a right-wing meme as it targets lower income students who want to go to college by ripping out one means of funding. Same deal with the Pell Grants. But if you tell the wingnuts we can save the gov't a heap of money by preventing the scam schools from qualifying for loans, they freak out.

    Here's my earlier diary:

    http://www.dailykos.com/...

    if you want a better breakdown for why tuition is rising, I wrote yet another diary:

    http://www.dailykos.com/...

    There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

    by upstate NY on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 02:39:50 PM PDT

    •  Is this directed at someone? (0+ / 0-)

      I agree about the connection between tuition and loans, I just didn't see anyone making that argument.  Unless you're saying that rising tuition doesn't affect the rise in loans, which seems preposterous.

      There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

      by AoT on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 03:03:09 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yes, a few made that argument in this diary. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        AoT

        I'll say again though that this problem with the rise in outstanding loans would not be nearly so noticeable were it not for the huge increases in loans to for-profit schools from poor students and the huge rise in defaults from such loans which are hurting the gov't.

        On an aggregate basis, the amount of loans would rise regardless because we have more students from poorer backgrounds attending higher education than ever before, but when you add the toxic brew of for-profit schools to the mix, something else happens.

        I'll say it again: if all things remained equal and states hadn't cut funding to higher education, tuition would not have risen above the rate of inflation regardless of student loans.

        There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

        by upstate NY on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 03:12:02 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Thanks for clarifying (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          upstate NY

          I agree completely.  Although I hadn't thought much about the for profit schools.

          There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

          by AoT on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 03:16:10 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  The for-profit schools are the main (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            AoT

            problem in all this.

            There would not be nearly as much pressure on the student loan and pell grant programs if the gov't weren't incurring big losses from the for-profits.

            While the CEOs earn $30-40 million a year off those loans.

            There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

            by upstate NY on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 03:23:00 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  And I bet you dollars over donuts (0+ / 0-)

              that we will see a push for the privatization of state schools based on the fact that the for-profit schools are making money.  Assuming there aren't people out there pushing for this already, which wouldn't surprise me.

              There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

              by AoT on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 03:27:32 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  It will be interesting if that happens because (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                AoT, sethtriggs

                the for-profits are right now known for massive amounts of failure. Very low graduation rates (even at diploma mills) and very high defaults.

                There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

                by upstate NY on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 03:44:16 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Well, it fits the method they've been using for (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  upstate NY, sethtriggs

                  everything else.  Defund it until it works like crap and then use that as an excuse to privatize it.  Nothing new.

                  There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

                  by AoT on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 06:17:34 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  The problem with their method of course (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    sethtriggs

                    is that private non-profits do a great job of educating students, so what they're maybe looking at is for-profit schools, and that's where the failure is.

                    Heaven help us that Bill Gates is involved with reforming Higher Education and also primary education. I suspect he had a bad time in school and is now taking it out on the rest of us.

                    He is the anti-Steve Jobs, as Jobs talked fondly of all the things he learned at university prior to dropping out.

                    There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

                    by upstate NY on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 08:53:49 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

  •  This is like the scientist interviewed (0+ / 0-)

    in a recent Nova show called Deadliest Tornadoes who blamed the recent upsurge in tornadoes on the fact that more people were living in their paths.

    Like blaming the rain on more people buying umbrellas.

    "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

    by kovie on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 02:45:02 PM PDT

  •  I have little tolerance for Virginia Foxx so (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    AoT

    we're even.

    "The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. Now do you begin to understand me?" ~Orwell, "1984"

    by Lily O Lady on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 02:53:06 PM PDT

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