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    What blows my mind here, are all the Progressives in training and those Democrats steadfast - who do NOT think for themselves - or believe that others are not allowed to do so. George Zimmerman is full of Bull [c]hit of the highest order and anyone within this DK realm that does not think so - may feel free to do such - but you are NOT permitted to tell me to quash my opinions on same.

     First off, this is DailyKos and you are reading a thing called a "DIARY". It was a brilliant, apropos thingy for Kos and gang to entitle our writings within as such. Because Progressives can thus speak their "views" as if a diary note to oneself. And bless the rest of us - with what they say or think. It is wonderful subject matter, to hear what other Progressives have to say and Kos's Rule on entering a house ["Diary"] applies. You are a guest here - So PLEASE stop trying to stymie human development for the better and inferring that any of us should STFU? If you don't like the fact that we speak our minds you do not understand the word progressive.

    That being said, there's some great stuff out there today, about the Trayvon Martin case and George Zimmerman - and I SAID IT from the outset, that Zimmerman is guilty. Therefore, I cannot be on the jury - but can - as a Free Thinking Progressive - speak my mind. Thus we march below the fold.

Marinade Dave's article "The Pyrrhic Victory of George Zimmerman"


.
       You should forgive Marinade Dave for the use of words or terms that one has to look up like "Pyrrhic Victory" ("pyrrhic victory" means a victory with devasting costs"). Yet you will adore his dedication to a story.

      At Marinade Dave's website "http://MarinadeDave.com" - he has been a Florida Blogger turned main stream media [kinda] - earning a real press badge. Dave has a great sense of temerity and tenacity for getting to the crux of the issues. His new story gets us much details as he pens "The Pyrrhic Victory of George Zimmerman" with proof and info germane.

      Please bare in mind, Marinade Dave lambast's both sides of the realm for making this a GOP v Dem thingy etc. He is on the record in this new story, stating he just wants the truth. In that measure, I concur and hope that we all do the same. Why this story is getting so much press, is due to the fodder of the extremists stating that Trayvon Martin and his parents are at fault for Trayvon's death; which is absolutely absurd. Thus, we needed a million plus signatures for Trayvon's mothers petition and Al Sharpton and other "progressives" to get into this case to bring forth the "truths" that "they" were hiding.

        We want and CAN handle the truth as Progressives. It is the might makes right RIGHT - that seeks to quash the truth/ facts - to foster their veiled agenda into such absurd laws as Stand Your Ground. Any decent, non-biased person, knows that there is a great possibility that the "whitish" George Zimmerman was not arrested because he shot a John Doe "black" youth in a hoody. If it were a "black" Trayvon who shot a "whitish" Zimmerman - arguing an arrest would not have been likely immediate - is vastly disigenious and incongruous with history. Especially in Sanford Florida.



Marinade Dave breaks down Timeline of Phone calls


.
       I would suggest you read the entire story by Marinade Dave (here). It is a lengthy article, but has many details worth reading. What I find germane and dispositive - if Dave's writing is correct - is the phone call break downs of both Trayvon with his girlfriend being sync'd with George Zimmerman's 911 call. As you can see here - Zimmerman's original story is that Trayvon marched up to his truck.

Marinade Dave appropriately points out the fallacy of Zimmerman's contentions;

“Why are you following me?” Trayvon asked.

“I’m not following you,” Zimmerman responded after rolling down his window.

Here’s where it falls apart
:

7:04 PM:  Trayvon received a phone call from his girlfriend.

7:08 PM:  Trayvon’s phone call with his girlfriend ended.

7:09 PM:  Zimmerman spotted Trayvon while sitting in his truck and called the non-emergency police number. Log records showed the incoming call was received at 7:09:34 PM.

7:10:35 PM: Zimmerman told the dispatcher that Martin was coming toward him.
 

[Commentary by Marinade Dave]
At no time during this period did Zimmerman say anything to the dispatcher about a verbal exchange between the two, while seated in his truck, nor is there any record of it on the phone call. As a matter of fact, Zimmerman said the boy was running away. This may have had something to do with why a charge was filed. Almost simultaneously, Trayvon was walking toward him and running away, and no verbal exchange took place.
 
emphasis added by "moi"

7:11:48 PM: Dispatcher asked Zimmerman which way Martin was running. This is when he exits his truck.

7:12 PM:  Trayvon’s girlfriend called him back.

7:13 PM:  Zimmerman said his truck was parked at a cut-through. 15 seconds later, he lost sight of Trayvon.

[Marinade Dave's remarks]
It’s very important to note that Zimmerman was in his vehicle until he got out and chased after Trayvon. The dispatcher warned him against doing so upon hearing wind resistance from the cell phone.

7:13:41 PM: Zimmerman ended his call to the dispatcher.

Meanwhile, Trayvon was still on the phone with his girlfriend.

7:15 - 7:16 PM: Trayvon told his girlfriend he thinks he lost the guy. She then heard voices:

Trayvon: Why are you following me?

Zimmerman: What are you doing here?”

Trayvon’s phone cut out at 7:16 (approximate.) His girlfriend said it sounded like the phone was dropped. Who hit who first is a big issue, but it does seem Trayvon got the upper hand.

7:16:11 PM: First of seven 9-1-1 calls came in. A high-pitched male voice is heard screaming for help, and then…

7:16:56 PM
: A GUNSHOT IS HEARD.

        Marinade Dave makes a remark that a trained reporter shouldn't do. Like the one that the dispatcher "warned" him [Zimmerman]. The actual voice on the 911 call released and (if undoctored) - we heard stated "are you following him" - Zimmerman said "Yes" and the dispatcher said "We don't need you to do that".  Thus the appropriate term is the dispatcher "reflects a cautionary note" - not warned. A warn would need more detailed instructions.

         Nonetheless, the facts are what they are. Most of us have heard the 911 George Zimmerman tape and the "f--- c----" arguments. All of us that listened did most definitely hear the dispatchers words of caution and George Zimmerman's "they always get away". That, combined with the fact that Zim is a (purportedly) trained "Captain" of the Watch - who had a concealed weapon. Is enough evidence to justify a conviction of some culpability for a youth winding up DEAD moments later. Not only did he step out of the truck for reasons we will be arguing of even a decade later. But Zimmerman was also TOLD (a fact on the tape) - that they police were on the way.


Sanford Police Arrived Within Seconds After Zimmerman Killed Trayvon


.
       Laser Haas's theory, if you will, has always been that George Zimmerman has a "Hero" complex. That he wanted to be a policeman so bad, he sought out potential "I gotcha's" on a regular basis. Zimmerman had Sheriff's class training, was 28 years old, a father who is a "Judical Officer" (a JUDGE/ trier of facts) and a concealed weapon with a vast history of 911 calls.

        What I believe transpired that night - and have said such from the outset - is that Zimmerman ran in front of Trayvon and surprised him. The phone log 911 call and Trayvon's girlfriend accounts tend to corroborate that premise. If Trayvon had seen Zimmerman running at him - does anyone believe the 17 year old, skinny, kid - could not out run the 28 year old, 240 lb - 5' 10" Zimmerman?

         But, more to the point, George Zimmerman's call ended at 7:13 - as Zim was already pursuing Trayvon. The gunshot was heard at 7:16:56 pm and the Sanford Police arrived at 7:17 - according to this by Marinade Dave;

According to the initial police report, officers Ricardo Ayala and Timothy Smith arrived on the scene at 7:17 PM, seconds after the fatal shot.


New Judge UnSeals Zimmerman Case as 18th Judicial Circuit Links docs


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        Denoted by the Wall Street Journal (here), is the fact that the previous Judge [Recksiedler] had "Sealed" the Zimmerman case files. However, Judge Recksiedler had to recuse herself, because her husband a few "connected" issues that brought into question partiality. According to the Wall Street Journal's story "Florida Shooting Case Documents UnSealed" that the "new" Judge [Kenneth Lester Jr.] sided with the media lawsuits and UN-SEALED the Zimmerman case documents (but he did redact witness names).


Zimmerman Case Docs Publicly viewable at FL 18th Judicial Circuit website
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       It is such a rare thing to see, that obscure issue of Judicial prudence; but that is what we have in this case. Wish we could see more of this and I give a high KUDOs hand slap to the Judges in Florida that make this bold statement on their website (here);
It is the goal of the Eighteenth Judicial Circuit to ensure that the media and public are accommodated to the best of the Court's abilities during special interest/high profile proceedings. Below you will find media advisories and public record documents pertaining to State v. Zimmerman (2012-CF-001083-A). Please continue to check this website for updates. Documents will be posted as they are made available for public distribution.
       We've not had time to go through the Florida court's website and look at the documents 1 by 1 - Yet. But we will. Meanwhile, you can take a look for yourself at this link;

http://www.flcourts18.org/...



CONCLUSION


.
       It is a FACT that we - at DailyKos - got involved in the Trayvon Martin/ George Zimmerman case when Trayvon's mother's Petition on Change.Org "Prosecute the killer our son, 17 year old Trayvon Martin" when it only had around 35,000 signatures. It is now above 2.2 Million. We helped make that happen and it was NOT because we allowed others to quash our opinion.

        We are FREE to think and speak here at DailyKos. This is MY DIARY, my opinion and it is based = in great part = upon corroborative evidence. I have to put up with enough bull [c]hit dealing with trolls about my own cases on the outside of this realm. I'll be damn if I am going to sit still and be quiet in here; or permit others to seek to quash and stymie decent free thinking and honorable intellectual discussion on a subject that is obviously extremely important to the country.

       Racial bias is alive in America  - and that SUCKS.

       Sexual bias is alive in America - and that SUCKS.

       Mitt Romney is running for POTUS and that REALLY SUCKS.

        Daily Kos is a Progressive realm that permits Diary's and that is WONDERFUL!

FINAL NOTE: Trayvon's Mother hears 911 tapes and Cries when Trayvon yells Help!

       I've read the Reuters story by Daniel Trotta (big cases have such exquisite reporter names). Marinade Dave suggest we read a Reuters article entitled a gut wrenching issue; which should assauge the naysays -  "Trayvon Martin: Before the world heard the cries"  

      There is a heart wrenching moment that transpired once the Mayor ordered the 911 tapes to be available to Trayvon's parents. Trayvon's mother knows her sons voice. The cry for help not only brought Sybrina Fullerton to tears - it also brought the Mayor of Sanford to tears and everyone else in the room as well. As the Reuters story denotes:

Chief Lee had resisted Crump's requests to make the tapes public, but he was overruled by Sanford Mayor Jeff Triplett. On the night of Friday, March 16, Triplett invited Trayvon Martin's parents and their legal team into his office to listen to each of the calls, which he played on his computer.

"When we got to the cries for help, that was when Sybrina burst into tears," recalled Jackson. "She said, 'That's Trayvon. That's our son.' She ran out of the room crying." (Zimmerman's brother, Robert, would later swear the voice belonged to George.)

"The mayor himself started to cry," Jackson said. "Everybody in the room was in tears." Mayor Triplett overruled his police chief and distributed disks of the phone calls to the media that night. They have been broadcast unceasingly ever since.

Poll

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Comment Preferences

  •  Tip Jar (7+ / 0-)

    PLEASE ☺ - Help Stop Mitt the Pitts Romney from Stealing ☻ the POTUS

    by laserhaas on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 11:40:22 AM PDT

  •  I barely made it through (24+ / 0-)

    the intro of this incoherent diary.  Sounds like you have an issue re: "progressives in training" as to your declaring someone guilty in the United States prior to jury selection much less a trial.

    The comment section should be entertaining for anyone actually able to read this gobbledegook.

    Vi er alle norske " My faith in the Constitution is whole; it is complete; it is total." Barbara Jordan, 1974

    by gchaucer2 on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 11:44:43 AM PDT

    •  No -gc... I did not specifically name the bad (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      zinger99

      people. But they are all over here and continue to tell us to STFU and let the courts handle it.

      You don't like what I have to say

      Just stay AWAY

      PLEASE ☺ - Help Stop Mitt the Pitts Romney from Stealing ☻ the POTUS

      by laserhaas on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 11:53:38 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Har! (14+ / 0-)

        I'm a member of this community.  You published a diary which is antithetical to our Democratic system which includes due process.  You don't like folks telling you that you have contempt for the Constitution?  Then maybe you shouldn't write such ridiculous diaries.

        Vi er alle norske " My faith in the Constitution is whole; it is complete; it is total." Barbara Jordan, 1974

        by gchaucer2 on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 12:00:36 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Oh PUH-lease come down off your high horse and (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          zinger99

          STOP putting words in my mouth.

          1st off - "antithetical" means "directly opposed"

          If you took time to read the crux - you would see that my rant is about those who are barking that I should STFU - because I have come to a conclusion.

          I have Contempt for those who assault the Constitution!

          Especially for those who do it arbitrarily & capriciously - by "Color of Law"

          Letting Zim go free and stating he was "squeaky clean" is a perverse effort in color of law extra ordinary.

          Arguing that I should not come to a conclusion and STFU is as anti progressive as one can get.

          You are showing your anti - Laser bias as usual and are total disingenious.

          PLEASE ☺ - Help Stop Mitt the Pitts Romney from Stealing ☻ the POTUS

          by laserhaas on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 12:09:53 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  This diary is a bit much, laserhaas. (8+ / 0-)

        I smacked down someone last night for what I believe you're trying to address. But often, less is more, and a bit of detachment gets more allies than emotional accusations.

        I think we are actually on the same page on this topic  --you and I -- because we bumped into each other in another diary last night/this morning.. But heck if I can make out what you're trying to say here.

        I dunno. Just my two cents....

        © grover


        So if you get hit by a bus tonight, would you be satisfied with how you spent today, your last day on earth? Live like tomorrow is never guaranteed, because it's not. -- Me.

        by grover on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 12:12:57 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  They only ally I need grover - is Honorable (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          a2nite, zinger99

          prosecutors.

          I choose to come here and take the heat for saying what many others wish to say - but can't - do to good form.

          Regardless of your opinion of me

          we are here discussing and No one is telling anyone to STFU.

          PLEASE ☺ - Help Stop Mitt the Pitts Romney from Stealing ☻ the POTUS

          by laserhaas on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 12:38:58 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  I've been writing diaries about (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        laserhaas, Be Skeptical, Smoh, doroma

        this case for weeks now, and nobody's ever told me to shut up.

        One person said I wrote an awful diary, but that's perfectly okay to do.  Even though he was wrong.


        may we not be strangers in the lush province of joy - Charles Wright

        by AlyoshaKaramazov on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 01:20:02 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  The STFU's was not directed towards me. It was (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          zinger99

          a mindset over the past several weeks by some and I kept bites of tongue [type]

          I even defended one naysay on the issues - when everyone lashed out and called the newbie a troll.

          We have the right to speak our mind and I wish (pray) that people would be more considerate and civil towards one another. We could become much more powerful, if we just tried to be better humans.

          Instead of better high minded, look down upon other twirps.

          PLEASE ☺ - Help Stop Mitt the Pitts Romney from Stealing ☻ the POTUS

          by laserhaas on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 01:29:42 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  (grin). Just sayin, you're a good sport and (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          laserhaas

          made me laugh.  It does truly help to not be defensive.

          Cats are better than therapy, and I'm a therapist.

          by Smoh on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 03:25:29 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  You are always a welcome sight Smoh - pro or (0+ / 0-)

            con to my point of view.

            PLEASE ☺ - Help Stop Mitt the Pitts Romney from Stealing ☻ the POTUS

            by laserhaas on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 05:12:48 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Coulda been worse in terms of civility. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              laserhaas

              You're a tough ol' dude, if you don't mind that characterization.

              Cats are better than therapy, and I'm a therapist.

              by Smoh on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 05:56:46 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Hey, I'm battle a corrupt faction in the DOJ & a (0+ / 0-)

                POTUS wannabe - Actual - contender.

                Do you really think Trolls worry me?

                I speak to them out of luv and forgiveness.

                Either of 3 things will happen.

                Mitt will go down and I'll get back what he stole.

                Nothing will happen and even this admin will destroy me (after the election is over) - Relief in a way.

                Or - Mitt wil steal the POTUS (and I believe he is powerful enough to do so) and they will finish me.

                One way or another - this 12 year battle - will be over.

                It is easier to be "tough" - when your bleeding in a corner and they keep kicking you -

                You defend or get done?

                Thanks for your being one that keeps at it

                REGARDLESS

                PLEASE ☺ - Help Stop Mitt the Pitts Romney from Stealing ☻ the POTUS

                by laserhaas on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 09:53:56 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

    •  I'm trying to figure out what "he's guilty!" (7+ / 0-)

      Means.

      Guilty of what?

      Manslaughter ? Murder 2? Premeditated murder? Hate crimes?

      Too often in these GZ diaries, reasonable people looking at the evidence, trying to reasonably analyze it and kicking around legal possibilities are assaulted with accusations that they are giving GZ "license to kill."

      It's rather absurd. There is a time to be emotional (I have been, very much so) and a time to look at things objectively.  If we cant have rational conversations without being accused (with or without the direct words) of being GZ apologists, then we are not a community of true liberals in the most literal sense of that word.

      I can be outraged and rational. These are not inherently conflicting states of mind, but of course, gc, you know this as well.

      © grover


      So if you get hit by a bus tonight, would you be satisfied with how you spent today, your last day on earth? Live like tomorrow is never guaranteed, because it's not. -- Me.

      by grover on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 12:05:38 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Congrats " grover" - that is the $64,000 question. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        a2nite, doroma, zinger99

        It is not a matter of "IF" Zimmerman is quilty

        It IS a matter of "what" is George Zimmerman guilty of.

        YOU WIN THE PRIZE

        G-d Bless!

        PLEASE ☺ - Help Stop Mitt the Pitts Romney from Stealing ☻ the POTUS

        by laserhaas on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 12:11:10 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Laser, "not guilty" is always an option. (5+ / 0-)

          Actually, I wrote that wrong: it's  the default.

          And I can't believe that you would want to live anywhere where that were not the case.

          Until all the evidence is in, analyzed by people with suitable education, experience and a bit of alphabet soup after their names, and distilled, all options are on the table, including the Constitutional default. We don't have to talk about it and I usually don't in this case , simply because I rather assume its like gravity-- it's always there.

          (In many other cases, I don't make that assumption, btw, because while the default in theory, it's not necessarily the default in actuality. I'm not naive.)

          © grover


          So if you get hit by a bus tonight, would you be satisfied with how you spent today, your last day on earth? Live like tomorrow is never guaranteed, because it's not. -- Me.

          by grover on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 12:25:15 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  The only evidence we need - is how much guilt (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            zinger99

            is there. Zimmerman has already confessed to killing Trayvon

            and we ALL want to know the reasons why

            (except for those that want the truth buried)

            PLEASE ☺ - Help Stop Mitt the Pitts Romney from Stealing ☻ the POTUS

            by laserhaas on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 12:40:16 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I've handled cases where people accidentally (6+ / 0-)

              Discharged a gun and killed someone else.

              Usually these were children, but not always. And I can't recall a single one that spent time in jail.

              Confessing to killing someone does not mean a crime was committed.

              © grover


              So if you get hit by a bus tonight, would you be satisfied with how you spent today, your last day on earth? Live like tomorrow is never guaranteed, because it's not. -- Me.

              by grover on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 01:08:32 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I think the shot persons or dead would disagree. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                zinger99

                PLEASE ☺ - Help Stop Mitt the Pitts Romney from Stealing ☻ the POTUS

                by laserhaas on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 01:12:41 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  BTW - what do you mean when you say you've (0+ / 0-)

                  handled?

                  In what capacity?

                  PLEASE ☺ - Help Stop Mitt the Pitts Romney from Stealing ☻ the POTUS

                  by laserhaas on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 01:13:20 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  With that thinking you would never be allowed (9+ / 0-)

                  to sit on a jury.  There are accidental shootings where no one is guilty of a crime and there are cases of self defense where no one is guilty of a crime. If you are going to comment on the legalities of GZ's actions make sure you don't conflate guilt with responsibility. They are two different things...both morally and legally. You seem to have come to the conclusion that GZ is both based on your analysis of the facts you have been able to glean from the media and other information released at the request of the media. You may be correct. However, in my experience people who are willing to base their opinions on the information that is available prior to trial are frequently unreliable fact finders. One of the most important parts of fact finding in a trial is to subject a witness's recounting of the events to cross-examination. That then tests the "evidence" for bias, uncertainty, impossibility and inconsistency. Of course, none of the "facts" upon which you have based your conclusions has been tested that way.  So certainly you are entitled to your opinion. I just think some people here think you should realize how particularly fallible your opinion is because of your lack of resources to reac an informed one. It is much better for the justice system, the victims and the alleged perpetrators if most people do in fact delay coming to concrete decisions about guilt or innocence. It expands the pool of potential fair jurors and keeps untrustworthy information from potentially affecting the ultimate fact finders.  But you are free to express your opinions.  You are also free to ignore how little potential you have for reaching a conclusion based on competent evidence. In the end though there won't be any points awarded for Internet armchair jurors who were "right". You have a 50% chance either way.  But the fact that you have already confused being responsible because he shot and killed someone with being legally guilty of a crime makes me think your fact finding and conclusions are, at best, premature.

                  “You can only become truly accomplished at something you love. Don't make money your goal. Instead, pursue the things you love doing, and then do them so well that people can't take their eyes off you...” - Maya Angelou

                  by stellaluna on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 01:54:51 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

        •  Zim killed Martin (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          laserhaas

          nobody is disputing this.

          The issue at trial is whether Zim's is not guilty by a claim of self defense, based upon what the prosecution can prove.

          The most important way to protect the environment is not to have more than one child.

          by nextstep on Wed Apr 25, 2012 at 08:43:14 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  A Modest Proposal (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        laserhaas, Smoh

        we should wire the guy up to 100,000 volts via an internet connected switch.  We can connect the switch to a Daily Kos poll with two options:  He Lives, He Dies.  We give the bastard a day to sweat it out and when the day is over we'll feed the poll results to the switch.  Maybe we could do a live video diary with the results.

        Wonder what would happen ?  

        Now there's a test of your progressive values.

        •  LOL - I have to confess - you got me cracking up (0+ / 0-)

          But,

          My progressive values are one really large and broad.

          I believe we can Not become better humans, unless we seek to be better and do better. That takes the liberty to pursue happiness - without such pursuits being at the ruthless expense of others.

          If you and I choose to be on a soccer field and we run into each other. That is part of life.

          However,

          If you "plan" to clip me in a broadside manner.

          That is guilt - despite what the ref rules!

          PLEASE ☺ - Help Stop Mitt the Pitts Romney from Stealing ☻ the POTUS

          by laserhaas on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 12:43:25 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  I'm trying to figure out (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        EdinStPaul, willisnewton, zinger99

        What Trayvon was guilty of.
        He was judged, found guilty and executed by Zimmerman in 7 min and 22 sec.

        •  IF what Zimmerman said is true (0+ / 0-)

          Then Trayvon was guilty of assaulting someone to such an extent that the person being assaulted feared for his life or his health, and so, in self-defense, that person used lethal force to stop that assault.

          That's what he might have been guilty of.

  •  I can't imagine how..... (15+ / 0-)

    ....you can stalk someone and then provoke them into defending themselves and then kill them for defending temselves, and that, somehow, is accepted in a civilized society.

    If corporations are people, what am I??

    by suspiciousmind on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 11:45:33 AM PDT

  •  It's impossible to get an unbiased analysis (4+ / 0-)

    of this case.  Each side is convinced of the guilt or innocence of Zimmerman before they even write about it.  But that is human nature not a character fault.

    Rick Perry is George Bush without brains.

    by thestructureguy on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 11:54:44 AM PDT

  •  i respectfully disagree ... (9+ / 0-)

    i understand your position and completely respect your thoights ... however, i disagree in calling a verdict ... i wanted Zimmerman booked and answer charges in court ...

    i will not sentence zimmerman ... i have enough confidence in the court and if they fail, in the public pressure that justice will be bought to this case ...

    •  I concur with your right to disagree. But Zim is (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      a2nite, Screaming Cat Chronicles

      guilty of something.

      How MUCH of something depends on several factors.

      The "intent" of the prosecution.

      the "intent" of the police to "which" agenda (will they seek to help Zim get off to save their own hides)?

      The "power" of the ALEC type lobbies to influence the way a Republican Governor and GOP slanted "special prosecutor" handle the case.

      The least of all "depends" is the weight of the evidence
      that is damn near already lost - were it not for people like us who begged the questions.

      PLEASE ☺ - Help Stop Mitt the Pitts Romney from Stealing ☻ the POTUS

      by laserhaas on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 12:04:48 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  my thoughts ... (6+ / 0-)

        i think Zimmerman is really stupid for having put himself in this situation. he could have defused and avoided the situation completely at multiple times - not leaving car; not carrying firearm when chasing; identifying himself to Trayvon etc ...

        the result of zimmerman's stupidity is the loss of a person - a son, brother, uncle, nephew, friend. even if the court finds him innocent, he will never exonerate himself to his consciousness and he knows that ...

        •  AMEN - InfiinteThoughts - AMEN.............eom (0+ / 0-)

          PLEASE ☺ - Help Stop Mitt the Pitts Romney from Stealing ☻ the POTUS

          by laserhaas on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 12:44:03 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  I'm not so sure about this. (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          zinger99, a2nite, laserhaas

          GZ strikes me as being sociopathic. I don't think he has much conscious or empathy for other humans. If I killed a person, even in self defense, I would be hysterical immediately following and for days afterward. Double that if it was a kid. GZ spent his energy coming up with lies and distortions. He didn't pretend to have any empathy until he was coached by his attorney to do so. He didn't send a letter or email of apology to the Martin's attorneys. He didn't write a single line of apology on his website that he made to ask for money. Even his fake, coached apology on the stand didn't seem sincere or remotely remorseful. He used it as an opportunity to give more excuses.

          He is going to lie on the stand, under oath again, because the most important thing to him and his parents is that he not have to account for or take responsibility for his actions. When he has been violent in the past-attacking a police officer, hitting a girlfriend, throwing a lady into a wall when he was a bouncer- his dad has used his knowledge of the law and status as a judge to get him off. If he has done it this many times when GZ was in his 20's, almost 30 yrs. old, imagine when GZ was a teen or younger. This is a person who has always blamed others for his misguided actions. This is a person whose parents always blamed others and never taught their children to be accountable. I wish a journalist would go to VA and interview some of GZ's classmates, teachers, co-workers, etc. That would fill in some puzzle pieces on why he is an almost 30 yo uneducated underachiever who is just now figuring out what he wants to be when he grows up.

          Each of his incidents of violence has been more violent than the last. I PRAY that he not be allowed to become any type of police officer. If they give him a license to kill he will surely murder again.

          •  All of his actions speaks volumes - they are just (0+ / 0-)

            shooting the messenger here

            All we can do is hope and pray that the prosecution does a legitimate job - or this case may make Occupy look like child's play.

            PLEASE ☺ - Help Stop Mitt the Pitts Romney from Stealing ☻ the POTUS

            by laserhaas on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 09:57:18 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  One name Infinite: Rodney King nt (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      laserhaas

      The radical Republican party is the party of oppression, fear, loathing and above all more money and power for the people who robbed us.

      by a2nite on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 12:52:57 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I admire your passion, Laserhas (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    laserhaas, a2nite

    and I hope you will take this as only a limited criticism.

    Zimmerman clearly took a life he wasn't entitled to take. That isn't, for me, at issue.

    But one of the many reasons that the above statement is true is because vigilante justice does not allow for anything resembling due process. Trayvon was not arrested, charged. Was not offered counsel. Was not an equal party in a trial to the state's prosecutors, and allowed to call witnesses, challenge a prosecutors witnesses and question the application of law that suggests a crime was committed in the first place. He was not sentenced by a qualfied judge with the ability to then challenge that sentence through an appeals process.

    Charge him. Yes. Make a prima facie case. Yes. But do not confuse this community of diariest with any kind of entitye etitled to say he is builty of a specific crime.

    What worries me is that the climate will not permit him to get a fair trial, and thus, in my own understanding of justice, we aren't entitled to convict him.

    That he is out on bail suggests a fair trial is possible. Good. I hope so.

    In the meantime, due process is what we need to fight for. Stand Your Ground needs to be fought because it denies due process. I frankly think the Sanford PD needs to be wholesale replaced for the same reason, but likely so do many PDs.

    Zimmerman is the least aof our worries.

    Have you heard? The vice president's gone mad. - Bob Dylan, 1966

    by textus on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 12:01:10 PM PDT

    •  Hey textus - for such a "techy" type name, typos (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      zinger99

      are a mainstay for you.

      any kind of entitye etitled to say he is builty
      He has been charged. The issue I seek to address in this D is the fact that there are those here - who profess to be liberal and yet - they seek to quash my right to free think.

      That is BS.

      The real question is What is Zimmerman guilty of

      Not - If Zimmerman is guilty.

      PLEASE ☺ - Help Stop Mitt the Pitts Romney from Stealing ☻ the POTUS

      by laserhaas on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 12:14:26 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  You are confusing your right to "free think" (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        KevinNYC, Dr Swig Mcjigger, laserhaas

        with facts. Zimmerman is not guilty of anything yet. He has claimed self defense which is an absolute defense (subject to a conviction of a lesser included offense for excessive force) which means if a jury believes he was defending himself he will not be guilty of anything. No amount of repeating an assertation that he is guilty of something will change that. It is still you opinion -- which of course has no bearing on his guilt or innocence one way or another. It isn't brave or progressive to write a diary proclaiming that your opinion is that he is guilty. Frankly it isn't necessarily very progressive of you since my experience is that progressives are strongly in favor of due process. While your opinions about what you think the evidence will show at trial may be interesting to some people your opinions don't  in anyway support a finding of guilt or not. They are just what you chose to point to in order to support your opinion. I have an opinion as well about whether or not Zimmerman will be found guilty. I have enough experience with the criminal justice system not to be confident enough to promote that opinion for fear that I may show my ignorance of the facts and a rush to judgment that is unfair. Progressives have accomplished what they can and should accomplish in this case. That is to see that the investigation is done and that charges are brought if warranted. It is not the provence or the duty of Progressives to try to convict Zimmerman without a full and fair trial.  

        “You can only become truly accomplished at something you love. Don't make money your goal. Instead, pursue the things you love doing, and then do them so well that people can't take their eyes off you...” - Maya Angelou

        by stellaluna on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 03:08:40 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Teh... He is Guilty of Killing Trayvon. The only (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          zinger99

          thing that is left to be determined

          is how much they will hold him accountable.

          PLEASE ☺ - Help Stop Mitt the Pitts Romney from Stealing ☻ the POTUS

          by laserhaas on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 05:14:52 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  No, you're WRONG (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            stellaluna

            Responsible and guilty are NOT synonyms.

            Look up the definition of "guilty".IF Zimmerman killed Trayvon while defending himself from an assault he couldn't escape, then he's not "guilty". It's not "wrong" to use self-defense when it's appropriate. An abortion provider is NOT guilty of murder after performing an abortion. That's because it's not a person and it's not a wrong and it's not a crime.

            •  Again you are a contrarian without substance. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Tonedevil, MadRuth

              As denoted by The Free Dictionary.com

              guilt·y (glt)
              adj. guilt·i·er, guilt·i·est
              1.
              a. Responsible for a reprehensible act; culpable.
              b. Law Found to have violated a criminal law by a jury or judge.
              c. Deserving blame, as for an error: guilty of misjudgment.
              He is Responsible for shooting Trayvon

              and he is guilty (culpable - guilty of misjudgment)
              for that Killing.

              The system of Law may let him walk

              But that don't make Trayvon any less DEAD

              PLEASE ☺ - Help Stop Mitt the Pitts Romney from Stealing ☻ the POTUS

              by laserhaas on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 10:01:22 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Responsible for an illegal or reprehensible act (0+ / 0-)

                Is NOT equivalent to "responsible".

                And IF Trayvon was beating him up, and he felt like his life or his health was seriously at risk, then he was NOT "guilty of misjudgment" or "culpable". That's the whole point that YOU failed to acknowledge.

                The shortcoming is YOURS, not mine.

                Zimmerman IS responsible for Trayvon being dead. That doesn't mean he's guilty, or CULPABLE either.

                You're the one who is purposefully misusing a word repeatedly.

      •  I type typos (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        laserhaas

        It's one way you can tell my ID hasn't been hacked.

        The screen name stubbyfingers wasn't on my radar when I went online 18 years ago.

        But no, in our system, and it is a good system when it is not interfered with by the likes of the military tribunal people, the question remains whether Zimmerman is guilty in the legal sense of the word. It is certainly possibl that Stand Your Ground will preclude him being held guilty. It is also possible that his inability to get a fair trial will. None of us can control the former, but we can do all we can to prevent the latter.

        As per the former, I have seen that the "author" of SYG says it doesn't apply. Well, excuse me, but I am not going to accept the analysis of anyone stupid enough to have unintentiaonlly caused a tripling in "justified" homicide in my state. That creep should be having to scrap for his own bail, imo.

        As per the latter, I would point to a story told about Hubert Humphrey. He spoke, eloquently, on behalf of civil rights legislation. He also, when chips were down, sided against the Freedom Democratic Party delegation being seated at the 1964 Dem National Convention. For this he was awarded with a warm can of spit or piss, depending on which Cactus Jack quote you embrace.

        When he died, the radical attorney William Kuntsler noted re civil rights that he was a voice, but couldn't be counted on. As for the voice, one of his opponents compared him to a scrappy dog who challenged a bull and got mauled. Yes, he had courage, the segregationist said. Won't say much about his judgment.

        Have you heard? The vice president's gone mad. - Bob Dylan, 1966

        by textus on Wed Apr 25, 2012 at 05:55:52 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Agreed textus (0+ / 0-)

      The radical Republican party is the party of oppression, fear, loathing and above all more money and power for the people who robbed us.

      by a2nite on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 07:51:59 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  The Word "Guilty" is a Technical Term (11+ / 0-)

    for an outcome of the criminal justice system. In that sense he's not "guilty" any more than a football pass is "complete" while the refs are conferring about possible infractions during the play and possible penalties, even when it's indisputable that the man shot the victim or that the receiver caught the ball.

    One prime reason progressives don't like to go calling pre-convicted private citizens "guilty" is to avoid creating a climate so hostile that a jury will decline to convict the suspect. If you'd like him convicted you should consider refraining from making it less likely that he will be.

    There is a serious chance of that happening in this case thanks to the explosion of rightwing lies about it. Many of us who want to see him ultimately convicted, and for some even executed, are urging restraint for that practical reason.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 12:03:44 PM PDT

    •  Wait Gooserock - e Tu'? The Kossack with damn (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      zinger99

      near 1/2 a million comment ratings and you compile all that vast experience into the presumption that Guilt can only be determined by a Court?

      Say it t'ain't so - PLEASE?

      PLEASE ☺ - Help Stop Mitt the Pitts Romney from Stealing ☻ the POTUS

      by laserhaas on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 12:17:50 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Exactly the point. (5+ / 0-)

      Anyone who wants the outcome of the proceedings in the criminal justice system to have validity (and, frankly, to stand up on appeal) should refrain from exactly the kind of thing this diary does.  

      I have no doubt that Zimmerman's lawyers are collecting all of this kind of thing so as to demonstrate to the court system that he cannot get a fair trial, or that -- at the very least -- they should have a lot of leeway in excusing any potential juror who has read this kind of thing, or even who frequents websites that have a lot of this kind of thing.  I'm a lawyer, and I know that in this kind of a high profile case, Zimmerman's defense counsel will certainly ask the judge to let them question potential jurors about what they've seen or read on the web, and they will argue strenuously to kick any juror who frequented sites with this kind of thing.  

      •  W I T Hell does this Diary have to do with Appeal (0+ / 0-)

        I say Zimmerman is Guilty

        He has already CONFESSED to shooting Trayvon.

        The issue is = "Guilty of What"?

        PLEASE ☺ - Help Stop Mitt the Pitts Romney from Stealing ☻ the POTUS

        by laserhaas on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 12:35:14 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  He's not being tried for "what." (5+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          laserhaas, Adam B, Smoh, dannyinla, nickrud

          He's being tried for second degree murder.

          So the question before the jurists isn't going to be "what is George Zimmerman guilty of?" It's going to be "is George Zimmerman guilty of second-degree murder?"

          They don't get to come back and say "no, but he's guilty of manslaughter."

          That's the current legal question. 2nd degree murder, or not guilty?

          "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." --Dom Helder Camara, archbishop of Recife

          by JamesGG on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 01:41:19 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  The charges can be withdrawn. But you have hit (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Smoh

            a nerve.

            In the rush to quell the anxiety across the nation - was a "murder" charge the correct way to go?

            I have no idea - but have worried from the outset - that they will find a way to queer this prosecution and get Zim off on a technical faux pas.

            PLEASE ☺ - Help Stop Mitt the Pitts Romney from Stealing ☻ the POTUS

            by laserhaas on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 01:45:40 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Yes, they can come back with manslaughter (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            stellaluna, dannyinla, grover

            Manslaughter is what is known as a "lesser included crime"

            Anyone who is guilty of second-degree murder is automatically guilty of the lesser charge of manslaughter or the lesser charge of battery.

            I don't know the specific rules in Florida, but the judge can instruct the jury that if they believe Zimmerman is guilty of criminally causing Martin's death, but didn't intend to kill him, they can find Zimmerman guilty of manslaughter.

            Florida does not have voluntary and involuntary manslaughter, they just have manslaughter.

            •  If the judge chooses to do so. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              laserhaas

              I also don't know FL law, but in some states, the lesser charges have to be specifically mentioned in the indictment. You legal eagles feel free to correct my wording and/or understanding.

              Cats are better than therapy, and I'm a therapist.

              by Smoh on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 03:56:38 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  But you are wrong. And that is where you keep (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          laserhaas, grover, DollyMadison

          Confusing your opinions with fact. It is your opinion that he is guilty. But a confession that he shot Trayvon doesn't make him guilty of anything. I may share the same opinion about the ultimate outcome of the trial with you. But I do know that his admission does not mean that he is guilty of anything.

          “You can only become truly accomplished at something you love. Don't make money your goal. Instead, pursue the things you love doing, and then do them so well that people can't take their eyes off you...” - Maya Angelou

          by stellaluna on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 03:13:41 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Of course potential jurors will be questioned (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        laserhaas

        About news consumption and  media exposure to this case. They always are.

        Why is this any different?

        And once they screen for that, how exactly is that grounds for appeal, assuming that the judge gave counsel proper (usual) leeway and no jurors lied?

        © grover


        So if you get hit by a bus tonight, would you be satisfied with how you spent today, your last day on earth? Live like tomorrow is never guaranteed, because it's not. -- Me.

        by grover on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 12:51:06 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Sheesssshhh, I dunno grover. We can't come to (0+ / 0-)

          terms with the 1st trial.

          I'll never step into the realm of Florida Appeals processes; until I am forced to do so.

          PLEASE ☺ - Help Stop Mitt the Pitts Romney from Stealing ☻ the POTUS

          by laserhaas on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 12:52:38 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  You are free to think what you want. But (10+ / 0-)

    what happens if the jury finds Zimmerman not guilty?  

    Me, what I want is for Zimmerman to be given his constitutional rights and to be subjected to the criminal justice system pursuant to those constitutional rights.  It is the job of the trier of fact in criminal justice system to make the decision about whether Zimmerman is guilty of a crime, and if he is what that crime is.  

    •  "What IF - Zim's found Not Guilty"? I will move (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      a2nite

      to Florida and scream Bloody hell.

      I am predicting that there is a possibility and even a probabilty that the prosecution will blow this case.

      They did from the outset.

      Both the police and prosecutors will have a STORM on their hands - if Zimmerman's claim to SYG - wins him an acquittal.

      PLEASE ☺ - Help Stop Mitt the Pitts Romney from Stealing ☻ the POTUS

      by laserhaas on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 12:24:22 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I seriously hope that you will watch as much of (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        laserhaas, erush1345, VClib, Smoh

        Trial as possible. It's hard work to be a juror in most cases. They're rarely open-and-shut.

        Try to watch with an open and analytical mind, like you're a juror, take notes of the technical and scientific stuff they talk about. See how complicated it is. Jurors don't get google or Wikipedia to help them out when something doesn't make sense. They can't raise their hands and ask the witness to stop and repeat something or for the expert to explain something a different way.

        Plus, they know everyone is watching them all the time, especially when they're looking at very difficult evidence, like autopsy photos. They have to listen to heart-breaking testimony from family and detailed scientific testimony that's often gruesome to laypeople.   So it can be emotionally difficult and exhausting.

        I hope you come away respecting the judge, jury and process even if you most vehemently disagree with the verdict.

        © grover


        So if you get hit by a bus tonight, would you be satisfied with how you spent today, your last day on earth? Live like tomorrow is never guaranteed, because it's not. -- Me.

        by grover on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 01:02:03 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Sorry grover. My big case is Mitt the Pitts Bain (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Smoh

          by the time this goes to trial and concludes

          I'll either be jumping for joy that the diamond ceiling preventing Bain from being investigated has broken

          Or, they will finish destroying me.

          In the meantime, California is going to vote in November
          to repeal the Death Penalty

          Now that is worth watching.

          PLEASE ☺ - Help Stop Mitt the Pitts Romney from Stealing ☻ the POTUS

          by laserhaas on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 01:07:52 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Then honestly, laser, I'm incredibly (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Smoh, dannyinla

            Perplexed.

            You have a lot of passion here. But you seem uninterested in finding out the truth. Are you so sure you know every fact already?

            Of course the election is important. We will all be doing our share. But we also live in an era of DVRs  and On-Demand viewing, or at least, VCRs and DVD recorders.

            For someone who is so fired up, I'm shocked you wouldn't want to follow the trial as intensely as you are following the pre-trial publicity. You did say you'd move to FL if the verdict were not guilty, eh? I trust that was hyperbole, but still.

            One thing I learned a long time ago is that it's often easier to be outraged over what one perceives to be real  than to actively seek, understand,  and accept the truth, whatever it is.  

            That's all.  

            © grover


            So if you get hit by a bus tonight, would you be satisfied with how you spent today, your last day on earth? Live like tomorrow is never guaranteed, because it's not. -- Me.

            by grover on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 02:51:00 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  he won't get convicted (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    laserhaas

    No way around reasonable doubt. The only other person who saw what happened is dead.

    •  Um, lots of people have been convicted (5+ / 0-)

      when nobody else living saw the crime.    Some have even been put to death.

    •  But, (4+ / 0-)

      isn't that true of any legal situation in which it is, in effect, one person's word against another's?

      In this situation we sadly do not have the other person's word, but we have other evidence such as recorded phone calls, etc. which in effect speak for that other voice.

      When I was on a jury (for a statutory rape case) the attorneys told us that reasonable doubt doesn't mean to be convicted you have to be certain. It means that a reasonable person might think the defendant is not guilty.

    •  zimmerman is rather bound (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      doroma, laserhaas, amsterdam

      by the number of recorded 911 calls, as well as some eyewitnesses of varying degrees, and the testimony of the girl with whom trayvon was speaking.

      it's not insignificant, all that.    

      Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, first make sure that you are not, in fact, just surrounding yourself with a-holes - William Gibson.

      by doesnotworkorplaywellwithothers on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 01:07:28 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  "all that" should end with a question mark (?) (0+ / 0-)

        Yes?

        PLEASE ☺ - Help Stop Mitt the Pitts Romney from Stealing ☻ the POTUS

        by laserhaas on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 01:14:14 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  i'm not sure what you're asking, but (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          laserhaas, Smoh

          grammatically, "all that" is merely a restatement of the subject "it"

          i could have said it less conversationally as :

          all that (meaning the phone calls etc.) is not insignificant.

          i'm not posing a question.

          Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, first make sure that you are not, in fact, just surrounding yourself with a-holes - William Gibson.

          by doesnotworkorplaywellwithothers on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 01:50:31 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Then what is "all that" to which you refer - that (0+ / 0-)

            is Not significant?

            PLEASE ☺ - Help Stop Mitt the Pitts Romney from Stealing ☻ the POTUS

            by laserhaas on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 02:01:15 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  not insignificant, i.e. it is significant. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Smoh

              i.e. it is ALL significant.

              people say there is not enough evidence to convict on, but i think there is significant evidence that he acted in a manner consistent with murder 2.

              Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, first make sure that you are not, in fact, just surrounding yourself with a-holes - William Gibson.

              by doesnotworkorplaywellwithothers on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 02:22:00 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I completely agree. There are other facts that (1+ / 0-)

                make his claim of self defense unlikely. But until all of the evidence is presented and tested it probably isn't helpful to jump to conclusions.  No matter how tempting and satisfying it is to do so in this case.

                “You can only become truly accomplished at something you love. Don't make money your goal. Instead, pursue the things you love doing, and then do them so well that people can't take their eyes off you...” - Maya Angelou

                by stellaluna on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 03:20:43 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  i'm enjoying testing my understandings (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  stellaluna, laserhaas

                  by stating what i think might or could happen here, and then seeing what in fact does happen.

                  Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, first make sure that you are not, in fact, just surrounding yourself with a-holes - William Gibson.

                  by doesnotworkorplaywellwithothers on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 03:59:51 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I respect that. People ought to be interested in (0+ / 0-)

                    how our system works and to follow the process. To see possible facts that would make a difference to you if you were a juror and watch to see how important those facts become is fascinating. Both as a study of our justice system and of human nature. So I think arm chair quarterbacking to some extent is a good thing. It's the people who get wedded to their own conclusions, without accepting how uninformed those conclusions are, that I have a problem with.  Those are the people with no concern for our system and who aren't capable of understanding human nature because they are so wrapped up in their own infallibility. Fortunately, few people take them seriously because their ignorance is so obvious. If you really want a good taste of it read the "comment" section after an article about a crime in a small town newspaper. If it wasn't so scary it would be hilarious.

                    “You can only become truly accomplished at something you love. Don't make money your goal. Instead, pursue the things you love doing, and then do them so well that people can't take their eyes off you...” - Maya Angelou

                    by stellaluna on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 04:14:21 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  i have been watching those sorts of comments (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      laserhaas, stellaluna

                      in this case and it is very very scary.  how would you like to be one of twelve and have a couple of those types in the room with you?  to judge a life and death situation with them, and  try tocome to a reasonable conclusion?

                      frankly i don't all that many people are intelligent enough to be on a jury.    the fragility of the system is just amazing.

                      Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, first make sure that you are not, in fact, just surrounding yourself with a-holes - William Gibson.

                      by doesnotworkorplaywellwithothers on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 04:23:45 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  I've always believed we need professional juries (0+ / 0-)

                        Especially in murder and arson cases - where science is such a super important issue.

                        PLEASE ☺ - Help Stop Mitt the Pitts Romney from Stealing ☻ the POTUS

                        by laserhaas on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 05:22:32 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  i would think that is an idea to consider, yes. (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          laserhaas

                          it would certainly lead to a greater consistency of outcome.

                          one problem here in the sf bay area is that we are an immigrant community, with many people coming from places where the very idea of 'innocent until proven guilty' is simply unheard of.  people with varying degrees of understanding of what is criminal behavior, and even, of what their own prejudices because their background is in another culture altogether have often become members of a jury, distorting a case's outcome.

                          Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, first make sure that you are not, in fact, just surrounding yourself with a-holes - William Gibson.

                          by doesnotworkorplaywellwithothers on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 05:28:58 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                  •  Me too. Same thing with the case here in SoCal (0+ / 0-)

                    where everyone begged to to write Diary's about the "purported" hate crime.

                    http://www.youtube.com/...

                    I refused and pissed many off - saying I am a yid and was being anti Muslim

                    the truth is - the girl seemed phoney to me
                    and

                    there are VAST possibles - as the police have now determined.

                    PLEASE ☺ - Help Stop Mitt the Pitts Romney from Stealing ☻ the POTUS

                    by laserhaas on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 05:21:13 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

  •  Just one thing, if we're dealing with facts (16+ / 0-)
    If Trayvon had seen Zimmerman running at him - does anyone believe the 17 year old, skinny, kid - could not out run the 28 year old, 240 lb - 5' 10" Zimmerman?
    This is not true.  According to the Orlando Sentinel, Zimmerman weighs around 190 pounds.  The "240-250" report is from a 2005 police report, and Zimmerman slimmed down since then (as you can tell from the police surveillance video).

    I don't know what happened.  I don't know who swung first or what was in Z's mind when he shot. I do wonder why he shot given that he, unlike Martin (as far as we know), knew police were on their way.  I'm waiting for the trial.

  •  IRONY FOR ZIMMERMAN ... (7+ / 0-)

    The biggest IRONY for Zimmerman is that he expects the Public to show a INNOCENT-TILL-PROVEN-GUILTY attitude from the public when he didn't share the same attitude about Trayvon.

    If Zimmerman gave Trayvon the benefit of doubt (that he seeks from the legal system) and didn't watch him as a thief, he wouldn't have approached Trayvon with the same kind of aggression that he showed and that would have saved a life ...

    What an irony!

    •  G-d Bless and KUDOs much to you "Infinite" that (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      a2nite, Crabby Abbey

      is the crux of this case.

      Trayvon is dead

      WHY??????????????????????????????????//

      PLEASE ☺ - Help Stop Mitt the Pitts Romney from Stealing ☻ the POTUS

      by laserhaas on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 12:36:15 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  it doesn't matter what "the public" thinks (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      laserhaas

      (all Zimmerman family whining to the contrary). It's our legal system. Our Constitutional right.

      © grover


      So if you get hit by a bus tonight, would you be satisfied with how you spent today, your last day on earth? Live like tomorrow is never guaranteed, because it's not. -- Me.

      by grover on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 01:14:04 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  And if it were my brother killed, I'd want the (6+ / 0-)

        Other guy's head. If it were my brother who pulled the trigger, I'd hire the best attorney money could buy and insist on his rights.

        That's why we have courtrooms: where we(in theory) enter and are given the ability to get cool unbiased justice.

        Comments like above "that's the lawyer talking" are a compliment to the man speaking them AND the system of which he's a part. As a society, we do not endorse community-based "justice" that is usually arbitrary and capricious.

        © grover


        So if you get hit by a bus tonight, would you be satisfied with how you spent today, your last day on earth? Live like tomorrow is never guaranteed, because it's not. -- Me.

        by grover on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 01:19:28 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  You had me with great concur - UNTIL you concluded (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          a2nite

          with the last sentence;

          As a society, we do not endorse community-based "justice" that is usually arbitrary and capricious.
          This is not in keeping with reality and facts in evidence.

          PLEASE ☺ - Help Stop Mitt the Pitts Romney from Stealing ☻ the POTUS

          by laserhaas on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 01:26:09 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  You're kidding? (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            laserhaas, Smoh

            If we look at GZ as an armed vigilante, what he did was mete out capricious justice to someone he thought was a threat to society.

            I don't want a bunch of my neighbors, or yours or the Martins'  or Zimmermans' neighbors self-selecting and deciding  what justice for GZ should be. If we get two, three or four different definitions of what "justice" is then, it's arbitrary.

            I want one jury composed of randomly selected citizens who have been screened deciding.  Not because they have any sort of stake in the outcome. In fact, I rather prefer that people don't really like that they're called for jury duty. I don't want citizens who serve for any reason other than its their duty to do so, because it might someday be them or their kid, and they want someone impartial and fair to sit in judgement of them.

            © grover


            So if you get hit by a bus tonight, would you be satisfied with how you spent today, your last day on earth? Live like tomorrow is never guaranteed, because it's not. -- Me.

            by grover on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 02:37:25 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I'm talking about facts in evidence on society as (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              a2nite

              a whole.

              Our justice systems are one of The most corrupt on the planet.

              PLEASE ☺ - Help Stop Mitt the Pitts Romney from Stealing ☻ the POTUS

              by laserhaas on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 02:57:08 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  In the world? Wow. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                laserhaas

                Now I know you're more into hyperbole than facts.

                Transparency International looks at judicial corruption as well as other factors:

                http://transparency.org/...

                Since we're no longer talking facts at all I think this is a good time for me to walk the dogs. Have a good one.

                © grover


                So if you get hit by a bus tonight, would you be satisfied with how you spent today, your last day on earth? Live like tomorrow is never guaranteed, because it's not. -- Me.

                by grover on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 03:19:33 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Yeah - Transparency International is the Bible (0+ / 0-)

                  Like Fact Checks . ORG

                  I've been working on hundreds of cases (Not including the 30 my own is connected to)

                  if you see what I have seen - you would not be so snide and condescending.

                  PLEASE ☺ - Help Stop Mitt the Pitts Romney from Stealing ☻ the POTUS

                  by laserhaas on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 05:25:13 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

      •  It matters to the extent (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        laserhaas, DollyMadison, a2nite

        "the public" is seated on the jury or influences those seated on it.

  •  Thanks laserhaas but can't tip or rec u (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    laserhaas

    The radical Republican party is the party of oppression, fear, loathing and above all more money and power for the people who robbed us.

    by a2nite on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 12:55:49 PM PDT

  •  I think it's voyeurism to talk about the guilt... (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    laserhaas, Catte Nappe, stellaluna, Smoh

    ...or innocence of someone.  That's what the jury is for.  I think we can talk about the case, and its meaning, without getting hung up on the accused.  Having said that, it's harmless to talk about guilt or innocence if you really want to--so you're disqualified from serving on the jury, big whoop.  It just doesn't change anything.

    But nobody's buying flowers from the flower lady.

    by Rich in PA on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 01:02:46 PM PDT

  •  not sure about others' assertions that your diary (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    laserhaas, Crabby Abbey, doroma, Tonedevil

    was incomprehensible.  i comprehended quite easily.  he has confessed to shooting to death a teenager.  there are no arguments against that statement - he has confessed.

    but, then?  what if the court decides that what he did (shooting to death a teenager) is not a CRIME based on whichever legal gobbledygook the defense team comes up with or whichever evidential holes might be unfilled by the prosecution? even though he shot to death a teenager.

    it seems likely that with the tatterdemalion slapdash police work that was done (over kicking and screaming protest), the prosecution will have a Sisyphus of a time getting clear headed evidence into the record. even though he shot to death a teenager.

    and as an unapologetic liberal progressive who had his ass handed to him on his first diary for being assertive and a little aggressive, i stand by you and your right to run your house as you see fit.

    also, bright kudos to Marinade Dave for actually going to Sanford and taking photos and creating a context for the timeline of events.

    FIRST PREMISE:  George Zimmerman shot Trayvon Martin to death.

    •  Great denote patchmo13. I have a group that (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      patchmo13, Tonedevil

      hate my "speciality" with Mitt/ Sachs and Bain. Because it purportedly attacks the legal profession.

      Don't fret much about the naysay upon Laser Haas
      I knew they would slam me the moment I put this up.

      It has been great conversation here and only a little close to STFU by some.

      Your remarks are FANTASTIC and I hope that you gather a good following of friends and conversational's here.

      This is a great place to be - as many don't vote openly - but follow the truth with great hope.

      PLEASE ☺ - Help Stop Mitt the Pitts Romney from Stealing ☻ the POTUS

      by laserhaas on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 01:23:58 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  i've been following the facts and "analysis" (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        laserhaas, Tonedevil

        as it comes out, and i've been struck with a concern.

        if gv was the aggressor by following tm, doesn't that put tm in the stand your ground sweetspot rather than gv?  i'm no legal expert (or even layman), but even if tm did attack gv, wasn't trayvon covered by the stand your ground thing?  i can assure you that if someone approached me out of nowhere and accosted me like that, i'd be snarling and snapping like a pit bull with a pork chop.

        i guess we'll just have to wait for the blind GogMagog of justice to wind its glacial way through the system.  i just hope that it helps some small way that GogMagog knows we're watching.  like hawks.  with super-nifty telescoping trifocals.

  •  tldrnt (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    laserhaas

    Today, strive to be the person you want to be.

    by GoGoGoEverton on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 01:22:39 PM PDT

  •  There are bigger issues that are important (5+ / 0-)

    I think Zimmerman is guilty and is going to jail.  But, I have heard extensive arguments by attorneys who agree or disagree that the Florida Stand Your Ground statute creates a likelihood that Zimmerman could be acquitted.    It depends on what the jury thinks.

    THe bigger, more important issues have to do with why some neighborhood watch guy thought he had the right to hot pursuit and evidently was not able to see any other possibility for what was going on than the fantasy in his head.

    What does this case show about Stand Your Ground laws?  What are we learning about the true nature of racial profiling and the entitlement to use it?

    If the police arrived the next minute after Trayvon was dead, it would seem likely that Zimmerman could have waited.  Should be tolerate vigilantism in the name of neighborhood safety?

    We need a national dialogue about these issues and whatever happens to Zimmerman, this can not be pushed back to the back burner in favor of the next sensation.  

    This is important way beyond the guilt or innocence of one really stupid guy.

    hope that the idiots who have no constructive and creative solutions but only look to tear down will not win the day.

    by Stuart Heady on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 01:54:08 PM PDT

    •  Concur Stuart. A dialogue is what we are having. (0+ / 0-)

      Racial issues are germane (and self evident by the dicuss)

      However,

      the fact that the police car arrived seconds/ minutes after - is not apropos to the defense or prosecution. No way could anyone know that.

      But - Zimmerman was informed the police were enroute.

      That is most certainly germane.

      I would argue that SYG is a license to kill.

      Especially - IF - Zimmerman is found Not Guilty!

      PLEASE ☺ - Help Stop Mitt the Pitts Romney from Stealing ☻ the POTUS

      by laserhaas on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 02:09:20 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Zimmerman Tried and Convicted (8+ / 0-)

    in the court of laserhaas. Fair enough, it's your diary man. You don't mind if he gets an actual trial though, do you?

    "Here's another nice mess you've gotten me into." - Oliver Hardy

    by native on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 02:14:53 PM PDT

    •  it seems to me (0+ / 0-)

      that zimmerman was tried and convicted (of the activity of shooting trayvon) by the court of his own damn mouth, i.e. his confession.  

      •  ZM confessed to 2nd degree murder? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        native, thestructureguy

        I don't think so.

        He admitted to shooting and killing Trayvon Martin. That is not a confession.

        Thankfully we have a legal system that protects us all, and not a system of convictions by the rubes on the Left and the Right who want to skip over the trial and head right to sentencing.

        •  no. i wasn't talking about second degree murder (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          laserhaas

          he shot and killed the teenager and confessed to it.  

          using courtroom metaphors to damn someone for trying and convicting in the court of [the diarist] doesn't elevate the contention to the level of actual courtroom activity.  it's just a metaphor.

          and if there were in fact a "legal system that protects us all" would we even have this travesty to deal with?

          this isn't like the OJ trial where no one knew who actually killed the victim.  we are hyper aware of the killer's identity.  say it with me:  george zimmerman shot to death trayvon martin.  or do we need to wait for a court to tell us what george already told us?

          the only thing the court can tell us is if shooting trayvon to death was a CRIME.  and specifically if that CRIME was second degree murder.  

          and no, i'm not going to let it go - George Zimmerman shot Trayvon Martin to death.  and then confessed to it.  that is what he did.  period.  was it a crime?  i don't know and i'm not qualified to say.  but i do know (and so do you and everyone else) that George Zimmerman shot Trayvon Martin to death.

          •  I have to wonder - patchmo13 - how much all the (2+ / 0-)

            naysays would fight for Zim to be "tried ONLY" in a court of law, restrain their opinion(s) and be so damnation bent on no rush to judgment

            If it was their relative, son - brother - that Zimmerman shot?

            PLEASE ☺ - Help Stop Mitt the Pitts Romney from Stealing ☻ the POTUS

            by laserhaas on Wed Apr 25, 2012 at 10:46:29 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  i guess i can (2+ / 0-)

              see how exercising restraint can feel like stepping back to let cool heads prevail, the law run its course and justice be served.  

              but

              without attentive, aggressive and OUTRAGED observers to coerce law enforcement to do their job with a little professionalism this dead teenager would have been swept out with the trash, no harm no foul.

              and that's not only disgusting, it's despicable.  

              it looks like time for the attentive, aggressive and OUTRAGED to keep the pressure steady so there's no way for corrupt/conflicted/coopted elements of the justice system to derail whatever justice is ultimately dispensed to trayvon and his family, if any.  eyes on the ball, ya'll.

              George Zimmerman shot to death Trayvon Martin.

    •  There you go - joining the mob - when you are (0+ / 0-)

      looking down upon me.

      I said he was guilty of killing Trayvon

      That is a FACT undeniable.

      His culpability and accountability is yet to be determined;
      by a system - that is NOT pure.

      PLEASE ☺ - Help Stop Mitt the Pitts Romney from Stealing ☻ the POTUS

      by laserhaas on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 05:27:14 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Nothing that's human is pure, (0+ / 0-)

        but I think we'll all have a pretty clear picture of what actually happened, by the time this trial is over. It's a good thing that you will be watching it closely.

        "Here's another nice mess you've gotten me into." - Oliver Hardy

        by native on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 06:07:20 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  To dare to suggest that we not all play detectives (0+ / 0-)

    is, for Laserhass, equivalent to attempted censorship.  Absurd.  

    I would ask someone to decode this incoherent mess, but I would probably find that even worse.

    •  also playing judge, jury and attorneys for both (0+ / 0-)

      sides it seems.

      “You can only become truly accomplished at something you love. Don't make money your goal. Instead, pursue the things you love doing, and then do them so well that people can't take their eyes off you...” - Maya Angelou

      by stellaluna on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 03:39:38 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Do you have a link to Zimmerman (3+ / 0-)

    claiming to be in his truck when this exchange occurred:

    “Why are you following me?” Trayvon asked.
    “I’m not following you,” Zimmerman responded after rolling down his window.
    I don't know where that comes from.
  •  We'll have more Zimmermans. We need less SYG laws (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    laserhaas

    And less authorities who set killers free without a real investigation.  

    Sadly, ignorant armed people will always be around.  What we need are less SYG type laws and other contributing factors to situations like this.  

    Sanford PD and Norm Wolfinger need to be investigated fully by an outside agency so we can know how it happened that this guy got to kill an unarmed teen and get set free the first time.  

    •  One of the most comprehensive remarks on this (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      a2nite

      case - Ever - willisnewton.

      I've been on the case since 2 weeks after it happened and have written much. You slam dunk the issues at hand.

      If Zim gets a not guilty - we now have a license to kill standard - with Precedent.

      PLEASE ☺ - Help Stop Mitt the Pitts Romney from Stealing ☻ the POTUS

      by laserhaas on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 05:29:42 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  If ur melanin deprived w/a y-chromosome only (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        laserhaas

        Are the only people w a license 2 kill at will = Jim Crow 2.0.

        SYG is not just about race; it is a component tho.

        The radical Republican party is the party of oppression, fear, loathing and above all more money and power for the people who robbed us.

        by a2nite on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 07:44:51 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Nah - a2nite - it was drafted and voted on by (0+ / 0-)

          the Black Panthers.

          SYG has nothing to do with white rule, ALEC etc

          It really is a misunderstood Law

          PLEASE ☺ - Help Stop Mitt the Pitts Romney from Stealing ☻ the POTUS

          by laserhaas on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 08:53:14 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  So called new black panthers = 9 idiots (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            laserhaas

            dont be so lax as to link the real BPP to these fools.  The real ex panthers have roundly denounced these few attention grabbers who by the way announced a bounty for the CAPTURE of George. Zimmerman and never advocated his death. They appear to be less than a dozen strong and while misguided are not actual vigilantes.  There are many who argue they are agents provocateur since most of thier actions backfire horribly.  

            Over two million people organized peaceably to clamor for essentially the same thing: that George Zimmerman face trial.

            Humor has it's place in a diary but the NEW BPP is not funny to me.  It takes effort to give the real panthers a bad name considering how muchthey were vilified the first time.  

            •  Not my intention willis -I apologize to BP's - I (0+ / 0-)

              was not even seeking to be humorous

              just venting my anger - sarcastically - at the pathetic hordes who so hate logic (and Laser Haas) that they put forth this babbling BS.

              I would yank the comment back - if I could - Sorry.

              PLEASE ☺ - Help Stop Mitt the Pitts Romney from Stealing ☻ the POTUS

              by laserhaas on Wed Apr 25, 2012 at 10:48:51 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  No one knows how to respond to insanity. (2+ / 0-)

                I think most of us are just reeling around punch drunk at the way this has all gone down.  It has been a one way ticket to crazytown for the first 45 days - and while most are elated that Zimmerman is in the court system now we've become invested in the story because for so long it seemed that only we the people cared about justice.  

                I'm going to get carpal tunnel syndrome retyping my outrage- there isn't any investigation into Sanford PD and Norm Wolfinger's action in the 48 hours after the shooting.   Corey needs the cooperation of Sanford PD but all that is needed from Wolfinger is for his office to carry their current case load.  He needs to be investigated thoroughly by an outside agency and have his records on this case examined.  He's either incompetent, corrupt or racially biased in his actions.  

                •  LOL - "punch drunk". A wise man told me once (0+ / 0-)

                  that you should utilize the root of the problem to handle ignorance

                  "ignore" - them

                  They feed on getting your dandruff up.

                  I had some real hate remarks - that I think I'm special because my name is in the WSJ and I've been on radio shows.

                  My speciality cost me my career
                  Life savings, home - kidnap of my daughter and worse.

                  I will take going back to normal Any Day and someone else can have this [c]hit they call "Special"....

                  PLEASE ☺ - Help Stop Mitt the Pitts Romney from Stealing ☻ the POTUS

                  by laserhaas on Wed Apr 25, 2012 at 12:24:39 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

  •  what does this (0+ / 0-)
    "Racial bias is alive in America  - and that SUCKS.

           Sexual bias is alive in America - and that SUCKS.

           Mitt Romney is running for POTUS and that REALLY SUCKS.

    Have to do with the tragedy of Martin's death?
    •  ask your "friends"☻......................eom (0+ / 0-)

      PLEASE ☺ - Help Stop Mitt the Pitts Romney from Stealing ☻ the POTUS

      by laserhaas on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 05:30:38 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  umm... Ok but (0+ / 0-)

        you said it - not them?

        Now, one has said that the killing was racially motivated (and I assume that is your assumption as well), which there is no actual proof of. Sexual bias? Romney? No clue.

        •  Nope, No war on women - you are Right. (0+ / 0-)

          No racial statements. (He did not say F--- Coons - he said Fubar moons) - Your right again

          and Mitt Romney's Bain are the nicest group of honest, hard working people in the world.

          Your right, Right, RIGHT - again....

          PLEASE ☺ - Help Stop Mitt the Pitts Romney from Stealing ☻ the POTUS

          by laserhaas on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 08:51:55 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Thanks! (0+ / 0-)

            he did not say a racial slur- that has been determined

            So what does the other two have to do with the Martin tragedy? Nothing.

            •  Puhlease -- that has been determined = Bull [c]hit (0+ / 0-)

              give me a break

              PLEASE ☺ - Help Stop Mitt the Pitts Romney from Stealing ☻ the POTUS

              by laserhaas on Wed Apr 25, 2012 at 07:33:59 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Please (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                laserhaas

                show me some proof of you assertion? Otherwise, you're the one peddling BS. They guy SHOULD be arrested and charged with 2nd degree murder. But to raise racial issues because he was a white-hispanic and it fit an (unfortunately all too familiar) narrative is divisive. Let the courts work.

                •  UH - err - are you REALLY suggesting that the (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  yellow is my favorite color

                  "court's" are the best determinate of racial issues?

                  Really?

                  The "proof" is the 911 call that we all heard and the fact that there was enough gathered interest for the Dept of Justice to get involved in the case.

                  Your (purported) proof to the contrary by a UK rag is not dispositive upon the issue(s). That is BS.

                  PLEASE ☺ - Help Stop Mitt the Pitts Romney from Stealing ☻ the POTUS

                  by laserhaas on Wed Apr 25, 2012 at 05:10:43 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Read carefully (0+ / 0-)

                    THIS is the analysis I was referring to in that "UK rag".

                    The fact that the DOJ is involved does not mean there was a racial motivation to the murder. Perhaps they will discover that, but as of now there is no evidence. Unless YOU have some and if you do you should call the DOJ immediately.

                    And yes silly me, I believe a court of law is the proper place to determine one's guilt or innocence. Certainly not uninformed people on a blog who rush to judgement (like yourself).

                    •  snide and rude Dude..... (0+ / 0-)

                      PLEASE ☺ - Help Stop Mitt the Pitts Romney from Stealing ☻ the POTUS

                      by laserhaas on Wed Apr 25, 2012 at 07:23:40 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  And calling my posts B*Sh*t (0+ / 0-)

                        wasn't? But lets stick with facts and reason.

                        •  Let me know when you are ready to start (0+ / 0-)

                          sticking with the facts

                          Your contention that I am uniformed is not a FACT

                          I believe in the court of Law - a FACT

                          But know - from experience - of "Color of Law"

                          A FACT of reality you seem oblivious to.

                          Rush to Judgment was by Sanford Police to set GZ free.
                          That is a fact you seem to not understand.
                          Which was CHANGED by our "opinions" on the matter getting massively involved - A FACT

                          Finally, I said your contention is BS - a Fact

                          It was not a person ad hominem attack
                          Which you have done more than once.

                          Now;

                          When you are ready to state facts - instead of being so holier than thou -

                          Let me know - by your actions!

                          PLEASE ☺ - Help Stop Mitt the Pitts Romney from Stealing ☻ the POTUS

                          by laserhaas on Wed Apr 25, 2012 at 08:23:15 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Last time (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            laserhaas

                            You ARE uninformed if you Just KNOW anyone is guilty based on the media reporting

                            You believe in the courts but do not think they will be fair?

                            I do not know what fact "color of law" is.

                            Again you claim as fact (which I share the same OPINION) about the Sanford PD's handling, but again the LAW will decide that. Not Someone on a blog :-)

                            MY contention isn't BS but you certainly had problem engaging in an attack rather than debate.

                            Good day to you

                          •  1st half way decent direction Mister T. My (0+ / 0-)

                            conclusions are not based upon media only.

                            Marinade Dave helped and others
                            http://marinadedave.com/...
                            including PACER research and more
                            before I even was willing to promote the Petition.

                            Media opinion is one thing
                            Links by media to facts of record are another.

                            In SoCal, they lambasted me because I would not write about the purported Muslim Hate crime murder.
                            Cause I do Not jump the gun to get attention.

                            I state what is on my mind and GZ is guilty of killing Trayvon - that is a Universal admittance.

                            How culpable he will be for that travesty is not within my control. But I am hard bent to make sure no Cover Up transpires.

                            PLEASE ☺ - Help Stop Mitt the Pitts Romney from Stealing ☻ the POTUS

                            by laserhaas on Thu Apr 26, 2012 at 12:37:24 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Dude (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            laserhaas

                            I have always agreed he killed that poor kid. My issue has been your claim that he is guilty of racially motivated killing. After we sift through the initial hype, intelligible and deceitfully edited audio there isn't any factual basis for that claim. And as far as your link, I don;t get what you are trying to say that I haven't already said.

                          •  YOu made the allegation my content was (0+ / 0-)

                            only media based.

                            Additionally, I did not say he is Guilty of Racial Killing

                            I said he is Guilty of Killing.

                            No matter what the outcome of this saga

                            Trayvon Martin is Dead, is Black and Zimmerman is Not

                            We all have the common sense to be aware that if Trayvon had shot Zimmerman - the police would have reacted differently.

                            PLEASE ☺ - Help Stop Mitt the Pitts Romney from Stealing ☻ the POTUS

                            by laserhaas on Thu Apr 26, 2012 at 03:43:06 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  sigh ... (0+ / 0-)

                            you state

                            "Racial bias is alive in America  - and that SUCKS"
                            and:
                            No racial statements. (He did not say F--- Coons - he said Fubar moons) - Your right again
                            and
                            The "proof" is the 911 call that we all heard and the fact that there was enough gathered interest for the Dept of Justice to get invocalimlved in the case.
                            So uh... yeah you DID racial motivation without any proof. so please give it a rest.
                          •  You twist your apples to organge compare Again! (0+ / 0-)

                            You are taking two verses in a story and adding them together

                            Judas hung himself

                            Jesus said you go and do likewise.

                            Those statements are general statements and do NOT add up as a finding of fact and conclusion of law to your totally erroneous remark that:

                            Now, one has said that the killing was racially motivated (and I assume that is your assumption as well), which there is no actual proof of. Sexual bias? Romney? No clue
                            . Emphasis added

                            You also stated;

                            he did not say a racial slur- that has been determined
                            NOTE - you make a Finding of Fact on Media - a FOREIGN media - and claim that such is dispositive; when you are barking that nothing of substance worth forming an opinion upon - can come from "media".

                            then you stated;

                            The fact that the DOJ is involved does not mean there was a racial motivation to the murder.
                            what is a the proper statement is;

                            the DOJ is involved does not "necessarily" mean there was a racial motivation

                            Again - you state a fact NOT in evidence.

                            Finally - you state;

                            My issue has been your claim that he is guilty of racially motivated killing.
                            Where do I say - without your "cut n paste" of logic - that Zimmerman is Guilty of racially motivated killing?

                            You are disingenious in your fact finding and have been the one making ad hominem personal attacks and anti personal conclusions

                            based solely upon Your Opinion

                            Which is still bull [c]hit in My Opinion

                            If you desire to take that and infer that I am saying you are full of

                            that is erroneous too!

                            PLEASE ☺ - Help Stop Mitt the Pitts Romney from Stealing ☻ the POTUS

                            by laserhaas on Fri Apr 27, 2012 at 01:46:19 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Ok (0+ / 0-)

                            You bring up racial issues/intent multiple times  within your post about the killing. I guess that was just some weird coincidence, so I'll ask. Do you "know" it was racially motivated?

                            The fact that the DOJ is involved does not necessarily mean it was racial of course, nor gender nor insanity nor a LOT of things. Your fallacy point is silly.

                            It HAS been determined it was not a racial slur, did you even go to CNN (NOT a foreign media) and listen to the audio analysis expert? Or would that be too much cognitive dissonance for you?

                          •  Your contention "determined" is an (0+ / 0-)

                            assumption of facts not in evidence.

                            Don't hold my opinions to a standard HI that you set.

                            Then seek to be dispositive with your proffering
                            of a main stream media concoction as a
                            finding of fact and conclusion of law.

                            All we know for sure is, there are many apparent insights into what the tape says.

                            The one thing the tape and transcript
                            http://www.documentcloud.org/...

                            do denote is that Zimmerman came to the conclusion that Trayvon was an asshole - trying to get away

                            and the additional fact in evidence is that GZ has admitted he shot that asshole DEAD.

                            How far that "bias" of determining that the John Doe (Trayvon) is an asshole, really goes - is speculation....

                            PLEASE ☺ - Help Stop Mitt the Pitts Romney from Stealing ☻ the POTUS

                            by laserhaas on Fri Apr 27, 2012 at 05:27:46 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I give up (0+ / 0-)

                            enjoy your denial.

  •  Ouch. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    laserhaas

    Seriously, this makes my brain hurt:

    You should forgive Marinade Dave for the use of words or terms that one has to look up like "Pyrrhic Victory"
    Oof.  As an educator, all I can say to that is... oof.

    Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

    by pico on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 06:04:27 PM PDT

  •  I think this dairy is wrong (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    laserhaas

    1) I had no problem with Trayvon's parents asking the State of Florida and the Federal government to review the Sanford police's actions.   But I do think we need to see the evidence presented at the trial before trying to judge what happened.

    2) George Zimmerman has received grossly unfair --even deceitful -- coverage in the News Media allied with the Democratic Party.    Look, for example, at what NBC did:

    http://www.theatlantic.com/...

    3) Sanford Florida has a rate of robberies, burglaries, rape and theft that is 2 to 3 times the national median.   It's unemployment rate is over 11 percent.

    Yet from day 1 the News Media has concealed this fact in order to paint Zimmerman as a police wannabee/viglante.  Not all of us live in wealthy, well-policed neighborhoods.   "Change You Can Believe In" isn't working out all that well for many of us.

    See this Reuters story for a real description of Zimmerman's environment:

      http://www.chicagotribune.com/...  

    4) I worked for months as a volunteer in Howard Dean's 2004 campaign, in Barack Obama's 2008 campaign, and in three Democratic congressional campaigns.    

    But if you want a theory from me re why there is such deceitful news coverage and hysteria, I think it is because some powerful people are desperate to divert the black community's attention away from the fact that
    they vote overwhelming Democratic, they gave the Democrats massive majorities in the House and Senate in 2008-- as well as the White House -- and all they have to show for it is 15 percent unemployment for black adults and 40 percent for black teenagers.

    5) Because of policy decisions by Barack Obama, Larry Summers, Timothy Geithner and Bernanke,  Trayvon's life would have probably have been damm bleak if he had lived.   There are millions of Trayvons out there.  
    And I see no sign that any of the Democratic billionaire donors give a shit about them.

    6) In spite of the News Media's depiction of Sanford Florida as the Wild West, it's homicide rate is 6 per 100,000.   Up here in Chester PA and Camden New Jersey it is more like 78 per 100,000 and 48 per 100,000.   Who is doing anything about that?
    Trayvon is gone -- who is trying to save those still living?

    •  Trayvon Martin is not black and Zimmerman is not (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      laserhaas

      Hispanic -- they are both Americans and they are both my countrymen.  Trayvon Martin and his parents deserve justice and George Zimmerman deserves a fair trial.

      And I am getting sick of a two-faced, exploitative , political Kabuki Dance that ignores those principles.

      •  Talk about erroneous contentions. No one is (0+ / 0-)

        ignoring or doing a 2 faced anything here.

        The rant of this D is about those who tell me to STFU on my opinion that the "rush" to judgment - was to set GZ free.

        It is "possible" that race is an issue - and your haughtier on such is not dispositive on that tangent of this case.

        PLEASE ☺ - Help Stop Mitt the Pitts Romney from Stealing ☻ the POTUS

        by laserhaas on Wed Apr 25, 2012 at 05:14:53 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

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