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Here we go.  

Florida state special Prosecutor Angela Corey has filed an eight page summary of the materials that form the defense's "discovery," a record of her investigation into the death of Trayvon Martin at the hands of George Zimmerman, who has claimed he is not guilty of the charge of Murder 2 by reason of self-defense.  

"67 CDs and a stack of papers" is Defense attorney Mark O'Mara description of what he now holds, and hopes to review and redact before the materials become public.  He'll need to petition the judge for a ruling to delay the release, and the judge will need to answer him.

Most names were redacted from the witness and evidence document obtained by the Orlando Sentinel, but six civilian witnesses were named: Trayvon's parents, Sybrina Fulton and Tracy Martin; his brother, Jahvarius Fulton; and Zimmerman's neighbor, Frank Taaffe, friend Joe Oliver and father, Robert Zimmerman.

The document listed 18 Sanford police officers as primary witnesses, including lead Investigator Chris Serino. Corey's office also turned over five reports prepared by him, as well as written reports prepared by four other Sanford officers.

The list includes new video evidence from the night of the shooting — both from the 7-Eleven store where Trayvon reportedly purchased Skittles and Arizona iced tea and from a clubhouse in Retreat at Twin Lakes, the townhouse complex where the teen was killed.

There doesn't seem to be an indication from the "table of contents" of any smoking gun or bombshell revelation, but this is just the start of a process where either side may make moves to seal evidence. It was reported that the court may release names of witnesses this afternoon.  I'll try to update this diary if there is much interest.  

4:11 PM PT: update:  the selective leaks begin, even as the motions for gag orders are still not fully known.  This one seems to be from the defense camp, who of course has a website but choses instead to use the MSM instead.

Matt Gutman at ABC has a medical report, which corroborates part of Zimmerman's self-defense story but is also lacking an x-ray and claims no concussion.  None of this tells us who started the fight.

It also appears that GZ was on several potent prescription medications known for mood-altering side effects.  I'll update more soon.  

Stay tuned, it's going to be a bumpy ride.  

Wed May 16, 2012 at 5:43 PM PT: At least on more selective leak seemingly favorable to the defense has been "reported," but I am loathe to link to it because the level of journalistic standards exhibited i so low.  

The story was carried by a local tv station, abc affiliate i think and claims that the medical examiner says that Trayvon Martin had injuries on his knuckles.  The story is not even attributed to "a little bird told me" or "annonymous source" and so doesn't rise to the level of mush except unsubstantiated rumor.  

This same station ran another 100% unattributed story claiming the FBI was about to charge George Zimmerman with a hate crime.  Not one shred of proof, or even attribution to a source is used in either report.  

On a more interesting note, there is a .pdf floating around that shows all 8 pages of the inventory of discovery materials.

here is one link to this

I don't know who leaked this yet.  

Wed May 16, 2012 at 7:47 PM PT: major NYT story on overall case appears

Probably worthy of a new diary, candid but anonymous sources likely include likely members of Sanford PD, city gov't, and possibly investigators for the prosecution, generally characterizing the innitial police work as "sloppy."

"In interviews over several weeks, law enforcement authorities, witnesses and local elected officials identified problems with the initial investigation:"  (bullet points follow)

Thu May 17, 2012 at 6:36 PM PT: Looks like 183 pages of discovery documents have been released
document dump here:

So far, I can't seem to find GZ's statements to the Sanford Investigators.

much to consider

Thu May 17, 2012 at 8:48 PM PT: many new photos released to media:

Orlando Sentinel posts photos, including ones that establish where the body was found, which I find significant when combined with newly released witness testimony.  

Thu May 17, 2012 at 9:09 PM PT: George ZImmerman's statements to the Sanford Police are not going to be released to the public under Florida law, due to the fact that they are classified as a confession.  

This is of course a major piece of the entire puzzle, and until these statements are presented at trial it's impossible to judge how a jury might rule.  

Anyone who says this case can be decided by what is in these discovery documents is not playing with a full deck.  The case will have to go to trial before the public can make the same call a jury will make.  


is this diary worthy? A list with no documents?

15%7 votes
43%19 votes
22%10 votes
18%8 votes

| 44 votes | Vote | Results

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Comment Preferences

  •  This should be interesting. (9+ / 0-)
    The list includes new video evidence from the night of the shooting — both from the 7-Eleven store where Trayvon reportedly purchased Skittles and Arizona iced tea and from a clubhouse in Retreat at Twin Lakes, the townhouse complex where the teen was killed.
    If he tries to get that redacted, I'm gonna guess it has some damning evidence in it.

    North Carolina: Where you can marry your cousin. Just not your gay cousin.

    by second gen on Tue May 15, 2012 at 11:52:10 AM PDT

  •  "Friend" Joe Oliver? (7+ / 0-)

    Isn't that the guy who didn't really know Zimmerman, but appeared all over TV telling us what a nice guy he is?

    "The difference between the right word and the almost-right word is like the difference between lightning and the lightning bug." -- Mark Twain

    by Brooke In Seattle on Tue May 15, 2012 at 12:00:04 PM PDT

    •  yes, one wonders what he can shed light upon (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      peacestpete, entrelac, Tonedevil

      I tried to block out my memory of him, but seeing his name here made me almost recall something weird he said at the time.   I like to call him Joe the Oliver, after Joe the Plumber.   Both outlived their fame/ shelf life quickly.  

      I'm secretly hoping this case can be finished up quickly by the prosecution without having to bring in race as an issue. They seemed to leave it out of the indictment.  I hope we don't have to listen to Joe's opinions on the inner workings of GZ's mind again.  

  •  Perhaps edit the title to Zimmerman/Martin? (7+ / 0-)

    As it is you are using Zimmerman's last name and Trayvon's first name - it leaves a bit of asymmetry to them.

    Is it true? Is it kind? Is it necessary? . . . and respect the dignity of every human being.

    by Wee Mama on Tue May 15, 2012 at 12:00:42 PM PDT

  •  I don't think the videos will be that helpful. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Tonedevil, johnny wurster, MGross

    I've seen the one from 7-11. It just shows that Trayvon was there buying something. There was something about Trayvon ducking into the clubhouse to get out of the rain for a bit. I assume the video shows that he just ducked into the clubhouse to get out of the rain for a bit. I guess they just want to show that there was nothing he did that would appear suspicious. I voted to wait until there is more information.

    Your left is my right---Mort Sahl

    by HappyinNM on Tue May 15, 2012 at 01:16:54 PM PDT

    •  I think the one (0+ / 0-)

      from the clubhouse could be very interesting depending on the angle of the camera. The Zimmerman party has not made any statements about exactly where Zimmerman first saw Trayvon.

      •  I'm pretty I heard that Z started watching (0+ / 0-)

        before he went to (into) the clubhouse. I may be wrong, but I got the impression that Trayvon didn't go into the clubhouse. He just got under the overhang for protection from the rain for a short time, maybe because it started raining much harder. I guess it depends on where the camera was located.

        Your left is my right---Mort Sahl

        by HappyinNM on Tue May 15, 2012 at 03:08:22 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Well Zimmerman claims (0+ / 0-)

          He first saw Trayvon moving  suspiciously between the townhomes. But he also claims he was on his way to the store and not patroling. It is against the rules to carry a gun in his role as neighborhood watch captain. But if Zimmerman was driving his car towards the front gate, how could he have seen Trayvon moving between the townhomes?

          •  moving between townhomes not on call (0+ / 0-)

            greetings, amsterdam.  hope u are well.  

            If you read the transcript of his call, he isn't (yet) claiming to have seen the teen between townhomes.  That story may have come from a family member or a friend.  I'm curious where you heard that.

            Zimmerman: Hey we've had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there's a
            real suspicious guy, uh, [near] Retreat View Circle, um, the best address I can
            give you is 111 Retreat View Circle. This guy looks like he's up to no good, or
            he's on drugs or something. It's raining and he's just walking around, looking
            Dispatcher: OK, and this guy is he white, black, or Hispanic?
            Zimmerman: He looks black.
            Dispatcher: Did you see what he was wearing?
            Zimmerman: Yeah. A dark hoodie, like a grey hoodie, and either jeans or
            sweatpants and white tennis shoes. He's [unintelligible], he was just staring…
            Dispatcher: OK, he's just walking around the area…
            Zimmerman: …looking at all the houses.
            Dispatcher: OK…
            Zimmerman: Now he's just staring at me.

            •  Hi Willis (0+ / 0-)

              I'm fine.

              I got that from the statement made by Zimmerman's father.

              •  okay, right then. (0+ / 0-)

                Here we have a potential example of Zimmerman's evolving story that blossoms after contact with his father.  Only of course we don't know if that is true or not.  It's more speculation.  

                I can't wait to actually learn what GZ's statements were, and in what order he added all the exculpatory details such as "returning to his vehicle" and the verbal threats upon his life from an opponent who had yet to get his gun away from him, yet knew his foe was armed.  

                I suspect GZ built his case for self-defense with help from dear old dad.  Of course this is rank speculation, but it's MY rank speculation.  

  •  Also interesting (3+ / 0-)
    Also listed are two employees with the Volusia County medical examiner's office and a pair of Federal Bureau of Investigation audio experts. The list also includes Tom Owen and Ed Primeau, two audio analysts who told the Sentinel they believe the screams heard in one 911 call were those of Trayvon, not Zimmerman


    Five fire-rescue personnel are listed as witnesses

    They supposedly gave first aid to Zimmerman, so we will find out how serious his injuries were.  

    •  Have you seen the new news reports? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      Do you have reason to doubt the credibility of Zimmerman's personal physician, who states that there were lacerations to the back of his head, swollen lips, broken nose, and black eyes?

      Do you doubt the nonpartisan county coroner, who now states that there was knuckle damage to Travyon's knuckles, contrary to what the partisan funeral director told us?

      Turns out, that, if this latest info is accurate (and we have NO reason to believe it's not), that all the people who leapt to the conclusion that it was Zimmerman who was beating Trayvon, that Zimmerman wasn't truly hurt, all those people need to acknowledge their errors.

      And all we'll hear is crickets. That's why all the people who were thrilled to post a diary with updates that could have made Zimmerman look bad haven't posted diaries here in the past 24 hours talking about these latest news stories that verify the story that Zimmerman first stated.

      •  There is the police video (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        amsterdam, Tonedevil

        that show no evidence of

        swollen lips, broken nose, and black eyes

        If the Republicans ever find out that Barack Obama favors respiration, we'll be a one-party system inside two minutes. - Alan Lewis

        by MadRuth on Wed May 16, 2012 at 12:47:20 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  You do know (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Tonedevil, worldlotus

        Of course that the medical report is a compiled report covering at least 2 visits one on 2/27 and one on 3/9.
        That the docter notes that during one of those visits:

        Discussed that it is likely broken, but does not appear to have septal deviation. The swelling and black eyes are typical of this injurie. I recommended that he be evaluated by ENT, but he refused.

        And of course you know that Zimmerman was heard by police the night of 2/26 and the morning of 2/27, and that the police at that time did not think Zimmerman had a broken nose.

        I'm sure you know that this report was given to ABC by the defense, and that ABC did not claim they had seen the autopsy report, but that a little bird had whispered in their ears that Trayvon had injuries to his knuckles.

  •  Might want to update (medical report is out)... (4+ / 0-)
    A medical report compiled by the family physician of accused Trayvon Martin murderer George Zimmerman and obtained exclusively by ABC News found that Zimmerman was diagnosed with a "closed fracture" of his nose, a pair of black eyes, two lacerations to the back of his head and a minor back injury the day after he fatally shot Martin during an alleged altercation.

  •  Game over for the prosecution. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    VClib, DollyMadison, Zornorph

    Per medical reports, Martin had injuries on his knuckles and Zimmerman's nose was broken.

    •  Hardly. Prosecution says Murder 2 (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      No concussion, and GZ was on several prescription meds known for mood swing side effects.  And no X-ray.  

      Family doctor's word vs eyewitnesses...  could be a wash here.

      The injuries do seem to corroborate SOME of his tale, however.  Just not the part that tells us who started the fight.  

      •  We'll NEVER know for sure who started the fight (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        though, right?

        •  We might easily know it this way (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          If GZ is not a credible person, and is lying about other things, one can reasonably assume he is lying about how the other guy started the fight.  I think this is a large part of the prosecution strategy.  

          Also, at the bond hearing there was mention of a witness to a two person foot chase, but the line of questioning did not continue.  Apparently the person could not identify who chased whom but depending on where and when this chase happened, it may disprove Zimmerman's account of being jumped and decked quickly, where the struggle finishes on the ground.  If his account is not corroborated by the evidence, how is a jury supposed to vote for acquittal?  

          We don't know what other witnesses there are.  We don't know what he texted his friends.  There is so much we don't know yet.  

          The fact is, we are all playing solitaire here with a deck of about 30 cards.    The guys is guilty or he is innocent.  We can't know yet.  

          I'd suggest we wait until there is more data to form a strong opinion.  

          •  I agree in general (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Be Skeptical, DollyMadison

            but even if Zimmerman is not credible, we still wouldn't know for sure that he started the fight. Only an eyewitness who got a good view (in the dark, in the rain) might be able to tell us that, and I'd be surprised if there was an eyewitness to the start of the fight who hasn't surfaced yet.

            •  The location where (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:

              the altercation took place tells us quite a bit. It is on that path between the houses, leading to the place where Trayvon was staying. That does not fit Zimmerman's story that he was walking back to his car when he was attacked by Trayvon. If that story was true, the altercation would have taken place at a different location.

              •  The altercation took place a few steps away from (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Be Skeptical, DollyMadison

                the intersection between the two paths. There are lots of possible scenarios that would include both Zimmerman being on his way back to his truck, and the body ending up where it did.

                •  Body location not established at all to public (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:

                  Officer Timothy Smith's police report puts the body between two units in the middle of the townhomes.  One that is the second from the northernmost, and the other that is the third unit down.  

                  This however may be inaccurate since the addresses he uses are also 911 callers.

                  Local television recorded what may be the body under a yellow tarp as investigators gather behind the police tape.  

                  here is a screen shot and some related photo interpretation on this topic - look at the group of pics here:


                  At the least, GZ walked 25 feet in between the townhouses and off his "innocent" route of "returning to his truck, having been looking for a street sign" to close the gap and confront Trayvon.  More like 40-60 feet by my estimation, and more than that if the police report is right.

                  on this chart, where are you saying the body is?


                  I say its at the line between L27 and M27, judging by the evidence I've seen.  

                  •  From the photos yo linked (thanks those (0+ / 0-)

                    are very interesting), it seems clear that the body was found pretty close to the end of the line of townhouses toward the cut through path. It could have been L or M or even K. I don't see how you see up to 60 feet there. The body is visible in the photo that is taken from an angle that blocks off nearly the entire view towards the back of the townhouses.

                    But yeah, at a minimum we're talking 25 feet or so, and those 25 feet are probably the 25 most damning pieces of evidence against Zimmerman in the case.

                    •  at your least est., then the distance 20-25 feet (0+ / 0-)

                      But the reason I don't see it that far north (and granted, this is just a tarp) is that we can't see the whole 6 foot form.  The dark metal sided sunroom/screen porch structure is screening a portion of the view, but not necessarily next to the yellow tarp.  A telephoto perspective "stacks up the telephone poles" in a photo and foreshortens perspective.  

                      Conversely, a wide angle shot like this one makes distances look greater.  "Objects in mirror are closer than they appear."  (closer to camera, not to one another necessarily)


                      Take a look at the sidewalk and note the klatch of investigators may not be in the same spot.  But they do give us a measure to go by - six feet tall and if you laid them end to end to reach the sidewalk T....  how far do you make that to be?  You cannot see the T, but you can see the doggie poo-poo bag station that marks it's aprox position.  Looks way more than 20 foot to me.  

                      Or look at this one:


                      Again, the camera lens is wide here, but count the sidewalk squares...  that's not close IMHO

                      Then of course we have the initial police report that says the body is behind the second unit down on one side and the third unit on the east side (Retreat View address), not the first from the north.  

                      Most people want to say the fight was "close" to the T, since it seems to be in the general region.  But "close" isn't going to cut it if GZ is claiming he was walking back to(wards) his truck on the cut thru path, and was jumped while doing so.  He'd have to divert quite a ways to get to the teen, assuming he also said there was no chase, and that he was sucker-punched to the ground while they spoke.  Someone closed the gap here.  

                      But keep in mind this is speculation mostly.   We'll see at trial if this is an issue or not, I hope.  

                  •  The "looking for a street sign" meme is false (0+ / 0-)

                    And we have NO idea the route that Zimmerman walked afte he left his vehicle. We do NOT know exactly where he was when he first saw Trayvon. We do NOT know where they first began their interaction, and how far that might be from where Trayvon's body ended up.

                    Leaping to conclusions is the WRONG thing to do here.

                    There's NOTHING in the 911 tapes about Zimmerman "looking for a street sign". That's a misinterpretation of what his father said based upon what his son had told him about the event.

                    Here's what the DAD said.

                    Even though a dispatcher told George Zimmerman not to follow Martin, his father said his son continued his pursuit to locate an address to give to police.

                    "He lost sight of the individual, he continued to walk down the same sidewalk to the next street, so he could get an address for the police," he said.

                    That's NOT the same as what you're claiming. It's Zimmerman's Dad not understanding that there are interior sidewalks and that Zimmerman wanted to be able to tail the suspicious guy to better inform the cops.
                    •  No sense arguing with someone (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      MadRuth, Tonedevil

                      who thinks she has better sources than Zimmerman's father.

                      •  No sense arguing with me when I'm right you mean (0+ / 0-)

                        I understand that I totally beat to shit your arguments on this topic. Too bad, so sad.

                        Zimmerman NEVER SAID that he was looking for a street sign. I'm  not "arguing" that I have better sources than Zimmerman's father. I'm arguing, WITH EVIDENCE, that  Zimmerman never said that.

                        His DAD never said it either. And so the false meme that Zimmerman said that? Perfectly described by me as a false meme. His Dad never said he was looking for a street sign, but that's the EXACT words that the OP used.

                        But, thanks for showing that yet again when you can't refute a thing I've written, you'll resort to a baseless personal attack as though it's a sufficient substitute for a real argument.

                        And yet again, MadRuth is stalking my posts. I've reported you now.  I have countless examples of you rating replies to my posts when you haven't been active in threads - that means that you're stalking me, Ruth.

                        •  Oh and I reported you too, ToneDevil (0+ / 0-)

                          Please, keep digging your own holes - I LOVE IT when you guys do that.

                          Stalking someone's posts, following them into threads, is not allowed. If you actually disagree with what I've written, and you aren't following me, feel free to expound upon those differences and/or rate others who agree/disagree with me. But stalking is out of bounds.

                        •  i don't wish to start a fight here (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          amsterdam, Tonedevil

                          and reasonable people can disagree, hopefully.  

                          Keep in mind everyone is engaging in speculation here.  

                          But that quote from GZ's father is EXACTLY one reason that makes me think GZ took the cut thru path east to Retreat View, and then claims he is "returning to his vehicle" (west on same pathway) when he finally spots the youth.  

                          Keep in mind Daddy Zimmerman was present at the walk thru the next day with investigators, so he knew the layout well.  I think he is giving an accurate general description of his son's initial movements.  

                          The other reason is that it fits the timeline very well.  I think GZ lost sight of TM quickly, and says "effin' goons" or whatever about three seconds after he starts to jog, and that this is when TM disappeared into the cut thru path darkness, at an angle where GZ could no longer see him from.  

                          At about the same time it takes a person to jog into the T from a parking spot "near a cut thru," GZ is reticent to give out his house number, which would be around where he last saw TM.  

                          I don't see it as a "false meme" at all.  We have zero idea what  GZ has said specifically to the police.  We only have his proxies to go by at present.  

                          But you know what?  I'm sorry I ever started this thread in many ways.  We are all jumping the gun.  

                          •  Hi Willis (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Tonedevil, willisnewton, worldlotus

                            Don't be sorry. If people wouldn't have been all over this, Zimmerman would have never been charged.

                            I've made one of my presentations with the audio from Zimmerman's father's statement. I think it is close to what you are saying. Take a look and let me know.

                          •  that's the way I see it too (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:

                            GZ's father is very clear in what he is describing geographically.  

                            I think he is correct down the line, except of course the part about who started the fight and how, which is up for grabs until a witness can describe it, or GZ can be proven to be pushing a false narrative.

                            I think the location of the body calls into question, as I have said many times, the idea that Trayvon was the one who cut off GZ's path.   The location of the body seems to me to suggest that GZ is the one who diverted from his innocent path.  

                            But without a map to carefully consult it's easy to think Zimmerman's story is plausible.  

                            DeeDee's account of the dialog differs, but even if TM did say "You got a problem?" I doubt it was said face to face. One or the other closed the gap to striking or grabbing distance.  At the least, GZ has some further explaining to do to show how his version of events leads to the body and himself being discovered, post-shooting, much farther south.  Someone diverted from the innocent path.  

                            Of course the father could be mis-characterizing the story but again we have seen reported that he was present the next day when the investigators did a walk thru.  It's AFTER this walk thru that they were said to give GZ the harshest questioning, (back at the police station?) trying to shake his story.  And that's after GZ consulted with his father about what, we don't know.    

                          •  I still think Trayvon ran north (0+ / 0-)

                            Zimmerman ran for 27 seconds, walking speed is about 5 ft per second, running about double. That would mean he ran for about 270 ft. If this story is true he would've seen Trayvon go between the houses and have him running in a different direction.
                            Just doesn't make sense to me.

                            If Zimmerman followed Trayvon running north, and then started running west to the corner of Retreat View, he would have been at that same corner Zimmerman sr. is describing, where Zimmerman went to get an address.

                            Zimmerman may have given that address to the police.
                            Of course we don't know whether the officer arriving on scene actually did call Zimmerman back.

                            If Zimmerman was walking back to his car going south using  one of those paths between the houses, and Trayvon came from the east on that path on the cut-through, this statement

                            He did not know at that time where Trayvon Martin had gone. As he was walking back to his vehicle, there was a sidewalk that goes to his left and Trayvon came from that area where the sidewalks meet.
                            Would be true, and I think that is probably what Zimmerman told the police. Of course in this case any remnants of doubt about who was following who, would dissipate  

                            That would also explain the missing minutes, and the statement by the girlfriend that,  Trayvon thought he lost him but then was following him again, and was real close to him.        

                          •  If Zimmerman's sr. story (0+ / 0-)

                            is true. Zimmerman sees Trayvon entering that path between the houses going south. He starts running east and passes the path he just saw Trayvon entering and continues to run east to the next street. Stops running on Retreat View and we then can hear him say in the 911 call, that he can't find the kid.  

                            Doesn't make any sense at all.
                            It doesn't proof that my theory is true, but it makes it highly unlikely the story Zimmerman sr. is telling is true.

                          •  We are gonna disagree here til we get more info (0+ / 0-)

                            Amsterdam I am interested in your ideas but mine differ in places.  

                            But in the end the location of the body is south of the T intersection, and not "by the T intersection" like Frank Taffe seems to think, so we do seem to agree on a lot of vital points.  

                            Frank Taffe is not someone who can be relied upon to relate the actual truth, whatever his motives are.  All his information is second hand, he was never there that night, and it's unlikely from his words and the television reporter's description of his knowledge that he walked the site with GZ ever.  His description of where GZ's car sat motionless and which direction it faced is based on nothing except his own guesswork and conjecture, for all we know.  It also may be a deliberately false narrative told to him by GZ.  We can't know at this time.  

                            link to Frank Taffe's local tv segment and his mistaken geography

                            (note the reporter at the end of the piece indicates the real area where the body was reported to be in the police report of Timothy Smith)

                            The NYT article linked in the diary update above finally tells us that the cops have zero idea where GZ parked his truck.  HIs wife came and got it, likely very quickly.  In the bloody head iphone photo, taken 2-3 minutes after the shooting, GZ is talking on a cell phone, and the anonymous photog who gave/sold the pic to ABC news says he was asked to call her by GZ.

                            The anonymous source for the NYT story about the car not being impounded is characterized like this:

                            A law enforcement official said officers did not seize Mr. Zimmerman’s vehicle because they thought that he had been on foot. They did not realize that he had been driving until after his wife had moved the vehicle, the official said.
                            To me this hints that the person doing the talking is in a higher-up position than patrol officer, and was not on the scene when the car was moved, which was likely quite soon after the shooting.  I don't think this source truly knows what happened, just what he heard later from those who were there.

                            It's possible that an officer on the scene knew all about the vehicle and let GZ have it moved as a courtesy, so he could avoid tow truck charges.  We really don't know from this source what truly happened, just what was said to be the excuse later.  

                            Not knowing where the car was parked, or moved, if it did indeed shadow Trayvon east on Twin Trees makes a lot of supposition about where GZ ran hard to actually determine given what little we know.  

                            ( I wonder if any police car video would show the view as an officer responded to the addresses on Twin Trees?  I'm not sure when these recordings start and stop, or how they are archived.)

                            But again, we do know where GZ's wandering ended - south of the cut thru, more likely on TM's innocent route than on a route to GZ's truck.

                            As for GZ seeing TM head south, I'm not sure he had the best lighting or even a clear field of view to determine that or not.  It seems to me that if he had noticed this, he would have turned down the dog walk first.  

                            I realize Frank Taffe thinks he knows where GZ parked but we don't know how he came to that conclusion.   It could be a lie told him by GZ to help his tale that he did not follow TM down Twin Trees from a spot closer to the clubhouse.  

                            One wonders how or why GZ would have seen TM in the first place if he was driving UP Twin Trees in a general northerly direction than if he had instead left his house going north on Retreat View.  

                            I imagine TM entering the gated community near Frank Taffe's house around the 1300 block of Retreat View. There is a break in the fence there used by school kids that is a shortcut for those walking from the west.  I suspect this is where GZ first saw TM, but after he has made it to the street and is walking towards the clubhouse.  This is only speculation however, since we don't yet know GZ's full statements.  But it seems likely enough, and a lot more plausible than the idea that GZ left his house to go to Target and took the less direct route up Twin Trees, and then somehow stopped way before the clubhouse to watch a "suspicious" person he identifies as near the clubhouse's address.  We also can't know exactly where GZ is saying TM is at present.  He references the mailboxes later but this isn't his description of where TM is loitering to wait out the rain.  It may well in fact be the spot but he's not specific on his police call and we don't yet know his full statements.  

                            I think GZ is describing the activity he saw TM engage in BEFORE the call began, the "looking at the houses" stuff, but again we can't know for certain.  From Dee Dee's description I get the impression TM stopped by the mailboxes to wait out the rain for a bit and that this is when GZ's call began.  But we can't yet know for sure.

                            If it happened like I suspect it did, GZ crept along behind TM twice - once on Retreat View east to the clubhouse, where GZ then turned right and passed TM somehow.  He could have waited on the first Twin Trees corner and started his police call there, with TM loitering by the mailboxes and GZ watching in his rear view.  Then, when TM is "coming to check me out" he's actually just walking his route home.  GZ gets passed, and when he says "these axxholes always get away" he begins driving behind TM for the next 30 seconds or so until TM reaches the second corner of Twin Trees and ducks into the cut thru, running.  GZ parks near the cut thru but facing east, on the opposite side of the street from where Frank Taffe thinks GZ was parked.  

                            I don't think Frank Taffe has his facts straight at all.  His placement of the fight is definitely off, and we don't know who told him that either but it is highly prejudiced in favor of his friend GZ to put it there.  He thinks GZ's car was at J17-18 (slight error on grid here) while I think it started near J8 and wound up near K 17 thru K20.  

                            link to grid here

                            The possible significance of this is in part that GZ could not have seen TM turn south onto the dog walk - his view is blocked by the north end of the townhouse that TM ran behind.  

                            It' s important to note that ten seconds pass between GZ's door bell and when the wind noise starts in earnest.  GZ takes a moment to secure his keys, flashlight, gun or whatever he is carrying as he leaves his car.  In these ten seconds I see TM running from J21 and into the cut thru where GZ very quickly loses sight, before TM can cut south.  

                            GZ runs for only three seconds before muttering "effing goons" or whatever he said, IN RESPONSE to having lost sight of TM.  It's only later when asked if he is following that he says "he ran," (note past tense) but he is running the path he thinks TM is on, not actually running after him while keeping him in sight.  

                            Sadly, almost to the second when TM rounds the corner into the dog walk area, his phone could be ringing already.  It does ring in the next 60 seconds we know since TM's cell records are accurate to the minute at least.  I think this was a contributing factor to why TM stopped and never made it home.  He also may have feared the menacing, moving car might be continuing south to cut off his flight.  We can't know, but he's got two good reasons not to go anywhere, besides the fact that it may still be raining.  

                            I see him waiting out the next minutes very near where he died, around the line between K27 and L 27, some 40 feet south of the cut thru sidewalk.  He may or may not have seen GZ go past, talking on his phone as GZ continued east on the cut thru towards Retreat View, having missed TM by virtue of being distracted and the darkness.  If TM wasn't on the actual sidewalk he probably didn't think to look behind himself from say, I 28 to L 27.  

                            Then it's only when he is returning to(wards) his truck that he has the angle to spot the teen, since he's now facing west.  This is the time for TM and "Dee Dee" to discuss "I lost him/ I think he's following me" again as GZ wanders about in the time between his call ending and the confrontation starting.  

                            Most importantly, if this path is the one GZ actually admits to, then he's putting forth a false narrative if he claims TM approached him as he was returning to(wards) his vehicle, since the fight took place elsewhere, not on his East-West path to(wards) the truck, but down into the N-S path of the dog walk, TM's path home.  Someone closed the gap between these two people, and if it was GZ, he's the lying aggressor, not the person who was "jumped."  If GZ's story is right, why isn't the body on the cut thru sidewalk?

                            It's completely false to characterize GZ's movements and motivations as "returning to his truck" at any time in this incident.  Using this language suggests he is not engaged in hunting or following the teen, but are we to believe that if TM were to have laid himself across the sidewalk that GZ would have just stepped over him and continued to his truck?  Was his obvious interest suddenly gone just because he turned west from east?  Of course not.  

                          •  I've put the car in relation (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:

                            to where Trayvon supposedly was and used the time line from the audio.


                            7:09:34 Zimmerman makes his call
                            At that point Trayvon is not moving, and we have him standing under that overhang at the clubhouse.

                            7:10:32 Zimmerman says he is coming towards me

                            7:10:56 Zimmerman says he is coming to check me out

                            7:11:17 He starts driving
                            That is 45 seconds for Trayvon to walk past Zimmerman.

                            I used the average walking speed for young adults, which is about 5 ft per second. That would be 225 ft. That is the black line.

                            7:11:40 Zimmerman says, shit he is running.

                            That means he would have followed him in the car for another 23 seconds. That means another 115 ft. That is the red line.

                            By the time Zimmerman said "he is running" Trayvon would have already turned south.

                            I'm not invested in my theory, I've tried every other scenario I could think of, and have not been able to find another one yet, where all the pieces of the puzzle fit.

                            I am not disagreeing with you because I want to push my theory. I just don't think it is possible for Trayvon to have ran south and Zimmerman not seeing it.

                            But let's agree to disagree.

                          •  can't find anything re car in dump docs (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:

                            so far I cant seem to find anything much to bolster our respective timeline/maps

                            except maybe this on page 38, in what seems to be john's statement that the body is aprox 30 feet straight out of his ptio door (paraphrased)

                            and this

                            on page 42
                            (my note, not transcribed)
                            TM walking between residences from the northwest

                            which seems to reference the path between the fences that pedestrians use

                          •  Police didn't secure the car (0+ / 0-)

                            They allowed Zimmerman's wife to pick up the car that night.

                          •  we don't know "Allowed" or not (0+ / 0-)

                            or do we?  I thought the police simply had no clue a car was involved.

                            I'm very curious about all this car stuff.  Either they let a major piece of the puzzle slip from thier hands by negligence or corruption it seems, and I want to know which

                            chack this out from page 41

                            Investigative findings show that on 2/26/2012 at approximately 1912 hrs George Michael Zimmerman initiated a nonemergency call to Sanford Police dispatch to report a suspicious person. Zimmerman reported a suspicious person, Trayvon Martin, whom he observed entering the community of The Reserve at Twin
                            Lakes on foot, walking between residences from the northwest.  (Remainder of this section is redacted)
                            Is this a typo or what?  GZ never claims that anywhere in his call.  The idea of GZ saying he saw TM enter the community from where his car ends up by the cut thru is not possible.  Was GZ driving or not?  And this entering the community thru the hole in the fence is NOT part of his recorded 911 call.  This is part of a longer paragraph and is a HUGE redaction area just below.  What's all that about???
                          •  You'll have to look at the (0+ / 0-)

                            comment via the comments, so you can see the entire picture.  

                •  I just (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:

                  used the scenario that was told by Zimmerman's father.

              •  Actually, this is NOT true (0+ / 0-)

                And it's been explained to you before. Why are you STILL pushing this debunked nonsense?

                One could have been walking back from one's car and depending upon where one started, one would be at a different place than if one started at another place.


                And we DO know, from photos, that Trayvon could have hidden, in the dark and the rain, behind the corners of buildings OR behind the fences that are in most of those condo's back yards.

            •  if the 2 person footchase was the start... (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:

              then we might know GZ isn't telling the whole truth.  The exchange about the chase in the bond hearing exchange was tantalizingly close to saying  that it happened in back of the townhouses, which tends to suggest that it was not a description of what happened on the street - GZ getting out of his car and following where TM had already disappeared into.  

              That's why I think it's a big deal.  It's as though there were a little "quarterback scramble" before the two were on the ground, in which case GZ wasn't sucker punched without provocation.  And his whole tale falls apart right there, if the prosecution can canvince a jury he was the aggressor.  It doesn't matter even who was chasing whom, since it's simply not the way GZ says it all went down, as far as we have heard to date.  

              DE LA RIONDA: Isn't it true, sir, that at least one witness described first chasing another person in the back of that --

              GILBREATH: Yes.

              This was the FIRST real question the prosecutor asked the investigator once he got to do cross-examination on him - O'Mara had called him up first.  It has to be significant on some level.

              Of course we may have to wait months to hear the rest of that question that was cut off.  

              And for now it's mostly speculation.  

      •  there are NO eyewitnesses to the fight (0+ / 0-)

        That can tell us who was beating whom, DESPITE your assertions to the contrary.

        One needn't have a concussion in order to fear that one might be in danger of having serious bodily injury done to them if they DO NOT act, even using deadly force.

        That's what self-defense laws allow in virtually every state in our nation!

        We do NOT know that there was no x-ray. We DO know that the doctor Zimmerman saw thought that he should go to someone specifically trained to examine broken noses - and you have NO reason to disbelieve that this trained physician misdiagnosed a broken nose. None. Zero. Zilch.

        It could NOT "be a wash". His injuries were documented with photos, with video, by cops, and by a doctor. Eyewitnesses can't dispute the injuries others have documented.

        No one besides Trayvon and Zimmerman knows who started the fight. Trayvon can't tell us, and Zimmerman can tell us HIS version of it. THAT version will certainly cause reasonable doubt as to who began the physical confrontation.

        The prosecution's case is over before it started. It doesn't even MATTER who started the fight, actually though. One can START a fight, and then, if one is unable to retreat and one is in fear for one's life, one can use deadly force. That's what "stand your ground" says.

        It's a suck-ass law, but it IS the law in Florida, and so he gets off every day of the week.

    •  Doesn't say anything (0+ / 0-)

      About who started the fight. ABC made errors in their reporting about the girlfriends statements, they created one event out of what actually were 2 events.
      The investigator at the bond hearing, didn't seem to think that Zimmerman's nose was broken. Zimmerman was heard by police that night and the following morning. If Zimmerman had 2 black eyes, they must have noticed it.

      •  And so on, and so on. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        All of this can be debated endlessly.  Just wait until we get to the prescription drug side-effect debate.  

        Adderall is known on the street as "government meth" and "fighter pilot speed," and makes people I know into total rage-aholics.  

        The other one is a downer that mixes terribly with alcohol.  

        Both have aggression and violence as possible side effects.  

        But still, did the PILLS shoot the youth?  No.  

        I am weary already of the debate this issue will raise.  I wish there was a way to limit the discussion on this topic since in the end any result is going to be inconclusive.  Just because someone has a script for a pill doesn't prove he took it that day.  

        I don't see medical experts listed as witnesses for the prosecution yet, but maybe that's coming too.  We just don't know a lot yet about what all this truly means.  

        I agree with amsterdam about the ABC story that confused DeeDee's account somewhat.  I guess I am just weary of the whole thing.  I hope the court sorts it all out to everyone's satisfaction but what is the likelihood of that?

        •  I think the prosecution (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          has a good case. At the bond hearing, the prosecution said that Zimmerman changed his story a couple of times.

          •  I agree but what do we really know? (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Be Skeptical, Zornorph, MadRuth

            Have you read Carl Hiaasen's essay?


            He's a great mind when it comes to all things Florida.  

            Worth reading, but in the end he thinks Corey is charging murder 2 so that a jury can rule for a lesser charge like manslaughter, after  a grueling trial and too many idiots weighing in. The system and the MSM are going to make hash of all this.  And in the end the verdict will be reached for political reasons, not based on what is the truth.  I'm starting to believe he's right.  

            Jurors will be able to vote for that lesser charge of manslaughter, which might be why prosecutors overreached. A compromise manslaughter verdict is bound to stir less public reaction than an acquittal or a murder conviction.
            It's a cynical view but he's been right before.  
            •  We don't really know (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:

              What evidence Corey has. If she is allowed to use the audio experts, and they can convince the jury that Trayvon was the person crying for help, those 40+ seconds on the 911 calls, could have a big impact on a jury.
              But you never know. Maybe there won't be a trial. Zimmerman may decide to cut a deal.

              •  He will NEVER be able to use those 'experts' (0+ / 0-)

                And if they had been honest experts, instead of simply people out to make names for themselves, they would have explained that, without voices saying the SAME THINGS in the same tone of voice from BOTH people, they can NOT say who it was who was yelling.

                That's why the responsible FBI came to the conclusion that they can't say who it was who was yelling.

                The defense, even the most imcompetent on record, could create reasonable doubt that a 40% match means that it couldn't be Zimmerman and that it HAS to be Trayvon, even though there's NO match having been done to it potentially being Trayvon's voice.

    •  Not so. The pics taken the night he was arrested (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      amsterdam, Tonedevil

      should with this kind of report have had swollen red eyes where the shiners would be and other marks, which get more colorful on the day after such an event, but that kind of injuries leave marks which are red and swollen, not what was seen in the photos. We shall all see, I guess.

      •  We've not seen pictures you mention (0+ / 0-)

        There was some digital surveillance video  (motion picture) from the police station, pretty poor quality.  Is that what you are talking about?  No one has seen any "pics" if you mean stills.  

        It's been reported that there are photos in the discovery material however that will show GZ's face on the night in question.  

        I don't see how injuries corroborate GZ's self defense contention when what is truly at issue is who started the fight, not if there was a fight.  But then again, IANAL.  

        •  Why would an armed man start a fistfight? (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          DollyMadison, MadRuth, Zornorph

          This has always bothered me.  If he had a gun in his waistband Zimmerman had no rational reason to get within the gun-grabbing range of a  tall teenager, let alone try to initiate a fistfight/wrestling match.  That's how you get yourself killed by your own gun.  On the other had, it would have been foolish in the extreme for Martin to have tried to attack Zimmerman if he was already holding a gun.  To the extent that anything does, it only makes sense to me that Martin initiated the physical attack because he didn't realize Zimmerman had a gun handy.  

        •  That is NOT "the" issue (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          We have evidence that Zimmerman had serious injuries, and with those injuries, he can claim that he felt in fear for his life.

          Trayvon didn't have corresponding injuries, according to what we've seen from the autopsy reports.

          The ONLY scenario that makes sense, given the evidence we have, is that Trayvon punched Zimmerman, making him temporarily stunned, and knocked to the ground. His face was hit, his lip was hit, his nose was hit, and the back of his head no only suffered two lacerations, but also other bruises - in the photo, you can see multiple goose eggs on the back of his head along with blood.

          It thoroughly substantiates his claims. His injuries are consistent with him being hit first, disabled, attacked with him being able to strike back, crying for help since he couldn't help himself, and finally pulling a gun and shooting Trayvon.

          We have nothing to substantiate that Trayvon was hit first. We HAVE evidence from the girlfriend that it was Trayvon who began the VERBAL confrontation - according to her testimony, Trayvon challenged Zimmerman, asking him why he was following him. We have immediate evidence after the event where Zimmerman claimed that HE had been the one hollering for help - do you REALLY think that he was that prescient that he KNEW that he had to claim that HE was yelling for help when it was really Trayvon who was yelling for help? Really?

          •  No corresponding injuries? (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            MadRuth, Tonedevil, worldlotus

            Just a bullet through his heart. And link please to that autopsy report you have seen.

            •  No, NO corresponding PHYSICAL FIGHT injuries (0+ / 0-)

              I swear, this ain't rocket science.

              The INJURIES I was talking about were the INJURIES Zimmerman suffered from a physical fight. Bruises and cuts to his head, front and back, showing that both the front and the back of his head impacted hard things.

              We haven't seen similar injuries to the face of Trayvon. His parents didn't report them. The funeral director didn't report them. You might want to look up the word "corresponding" if it still confuses you.

              The local news reported this today.

              WFTV has learned that the medical examiner found two injuries on Martin’s body: The fatal gunshot wound and broken skin on his knuckles.
              So, NO, no "corresponding injuries."

              When you have these kneejerk reactions to my posts, rather than trying to figure out if I know what I'm talking about - which I always do, because I don't post something I'm not sure about - you only make yourself look bad.

              •  I have not seen the autopsy report (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:

                But you and that other person that always appears at your side, (a rocket scientist perhaps?), apparently did. Since you have better sources than I do, what am I saying, better sources than Zimmerman's father, who am I to argue with you.

                •  The local news has seen it (0+ / 0-)

                  And, yet again, when you can't refute a thing I've written, you foolishly think that a baseles personal attack is a legit substitute for a valid, reasoned argument.

                  Here's a clue. It's not.

                  Trayvon had NO "corresponding injuries." That was the point here. The local media has seen it. Trying to denigrate ME, when it's not ME who is reporting that they've seen the autopsy report and it only reported TWO areas where he'd been hurt? Your shortcoming, not mine.

                  It's not MY shortcoming that I happen to look for news and factual information and you don't, even after someone tells you that it's available.

                  And it has nothing to do with ME having better sources than George Zimmerman's father - because the Dad did NOT say that George was looking for a street sign!

                  It is a false meme. It's undeniable, and so all you can do (well, you could actually either shut up or admit I'm right) is make repeated baseless personal attacks. I get that, and I have no problem repeatedly pointing that out - so long as you continue to make those cheap shots as though they will suffice as a rebuttal to what I've written, I'll continue to call you out for that disreputable behavior. Your choice.

                  •  cut it out you two. (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:

                    No one here has seen what evidence Corey has that leads her to push for Murder 2.  

                    GZ has injuries that corroborate that there WAS a fight, but injuries cannot tell us who started this fight, nor does it seem that witnesses can given the little we know now.  

                    What's wrong with agreeing to disagree and leaving out the thin skin.  No one here is on the jury AFAIK.  And no one has a crystal ball, either.  Let it go if you think you can.  

                    And positions have hardened to a degree that the few people who are foolish enough to keep speculating are either preaching to the choir or else not convincing one another.  

  •  a false narrative strategy for prosecution? (0+ / 0-)

    My personal feelings are leaning towards the idea that GZ is pushing a false narrative that is MOSTY true, including getting his arse kicked in some manner but it can be argued either way if he was in REASONABLE fear of GBH.  What's more important is if the prosecution feels it can paint him as pushing a false narrative.

    His word and injuries will count for a lot, but he is going to need to appear truthful at every turn.  Corey will try to poke holes in his story, and we don't yet know how consistent his statements are, nor do we know what witnesses and evidence she has.  

    If prosecution can demonstrate that GZ is not being truthful in an important way, then all the head bruises in the world won't help him.  He may have a great story but it needs to be seen as a true one.  And this goes for many aspects of his story, not just his fear level or his general idea of where he was going and what he was doing there at the time.  

    It may not be possible to refute his narrative, KNOWING WHAT WE KNOW NOW, but it seems to include quite a bit of fishy details that are exculpatory, such as the idea that TM verbally threatened his life BEFORE taking away GZ's gun. If i were nine and my kid brother had a squirt gun I might make that threat.  A real gun, not so much.  I'd probably keep struggling for my life.  

    This question is always glossed over - what rights did TM have to defend himself?  Yes, it MAY be hard for the prosecution to get to that question, given the laws but there are several ways to get there.  The idea that GZ has pushed a false narrative gets you there quickly.  

    I also take note that it's hard to understand how one is to believe, IF THIS IS WHAT GZ SAYS, that he gave up looking for the teen while still traveling east on the cut thru path, and was merely looking for a house number.  Seems obvious he was looking for the kid still, having moments before run after him.   He ran from his car for 24 seconds, then took four more minutes to NOT get back to his vehicle, if you count the time from "he ran" to the first 911 call.  If not "looking for a street sign" then what WAS he doing?  

    Speculation:  Perhaps he admits in his actual statements to SOME continued looking for the teen, post-"he ran" but wants to claim he "gave up looking" and was walking back to his truck when they two spot one another.  But that's slippery slope, isn't it?  When did he truly stop?  

    Isn't he (in theory at least) out of his car with a gun and still looking for the youth until he gets back into his car?  Did he walk back with his eyes closed?  Of course not.  

    What's his liability here?  

    Yes, he has that right, to wander and talk to people, but no, it doesn't seem to be his story.

  •  large document dump link in update n/t (0+ / 0-)

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