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I have read this very illuminating and insightful article on the Trayvon Martin shooting, from a writer on FireDogLake who goes by the name Masoninblue. He was a criminal defense lawyer and former law professor and his arguments have convinced me that (1). Zimmerman is the aggressor and (2). Zimmerman is a liar.

His full article can be read here: http://my.firedoglake.com/...

I also linked to the article (his personal blog version), in two of my comments on diaries related to Martin-Zimmerman.

To see his credentials click here:

http://frederickleatherman.wordpress.com/...

Let me start with why I believe Zimmerman is the aggressor via this lawyer’s arguments.

This lawyer does a pretty thorough job in mapping Zimmerman’s intent from Zimmerman’s own conversation with the dispatcher. Judging by this conversation we know that Zimmerman wanted to apprehend Martin because he felt that the police would not arrive on time and Martin would run away.

Zimmerman: Okay. These assholes they always get away. When you come to the clubhouse you come straight in and make a left. Actually you would go past the clubhouse.

7:10:39 Dispatcher: So it’s on the lefthand side from the clubhouse?

Zimmerman: No you go in straight through the entrance and then you make a left…uh you go straight in, don’t turn, and make a left. Shit he’s running.

7:11:08: Dispatcher: He’s running? Which way is he running?

[Ambient sounds are heard which may be Zimmerman unbuckling his seat belt and his vehicle's "open door" chime sounding. The change in his voice and the sound of wind against his cell phone mic indicate that he has left his vehicle and is now walking. The dispatcher seems to pick up on these changes and sounds concerned when he later asks Zimmerman if he is following Martin.]

Zimmerman: Down towards the other entrance to the neighborhood.

Dispatcher: Which entrance is that that he’s heading towards?

Zimmerman: The back entrance…fucking [disputed/unintelligible]

[This section of the recording has been the subject of much speculation. Some suggest that Zimmerman has just made a racial slur, but the audio is not clear.]

7:11:22: Dispatcher: Are you following him?

7:11:25: Zimmerman: Yeah

7:11:26: Dispatcher: Ok, we don’t need you to do that.

7:11:28 Zimmerman: Ok

Dispatcher: Alright sir what is your name?

Zimmerman: George…He ran.

Dispatcher: Alright George what’s your last name?

[A clicking or knocking sound can be heard here]

Zimmerman: Zimmerman

Dispatcher: And George what’s the phone number you’re calling from?

[Clicking or knocking sound is heard again]

Zimmerman: [phone number redacted]

Dispatcher: Alright George we do have them on the way, do you want to meet with the officer when they get out there?

Zimmerman: Yeah.

Dispatcher: Alright, where you going to meet with them at?

[For the remainder of the recording, Zimmerman sounds distracted. The knocking sound occurs several times during the final exchange with the dispatcher]

Zimmerman: If they come in through the gate, tell them to go straight past the club house, and uh, straight past the club house and make a left, and then they go past the mailboxes, that’s my truck…[unintelligible]

7:12:10: Dispatcher: What address are you parked in front of?

Zimmerman: I don’t know, it’s a cut through so I don’t know the address.

Dispatcher: Okay do you live in the area?

Zimmerman: Yeah, I…[unintelligible]

Dispatcher: What’s your apartment number?

Zimmerman: It’s a home it’s 1950, oh crap I don’t want to give it all out, I don’t know where this kid is.

7:12:40 Dispatcher: Okay do you want to just meet with them right near the mailboxes then?

7:11:42 Zimmerman: Yeah that’s fine.

7:12:43: Dispatcher: Alright George, I’ll let them know to meet you around there okay?

Zimmerman: Actually could you have them call me and I’ll tell them where I’m at?

7:12:49: Dispatcher: Okay, yeah that’s no problem.

Zimmerman: Should I give you my number or you got it?

Dispatcher: Yeah I got it [redacted]

Zimmerman: Yeah you got it.

Dispatcher: Okay no problem, I’ll let them know to call you when you’re in the area.

7:13:02 Zimmerman: Thanks.

Dispatcher: You’re welcome. – Call Ends 7:13:07

Now who initiated the force before Martin died?
Martin’s girlfriend calls him at 7:12 pm, which has been verified by cellular phone records for both phones.

Through counsel for Martin’s parents, she provided a statement in which she said

Trayvon expressed concern about a man following him. She told him to run. Then she heard Martin say,

What are you following me for?

This was followed by a man’s voice responding,

What are you doing here?

She said that she heard the sound of pushing and then Trayvon said,

Get off me, get off me.

Martin’s headset suddenly went silent. She attempted to call him back immediately, but was unable to reach him.

Obviously the man saying “what are you doing here,” is Zimmerman since there were only two people on this exact location at this exact time.

But notice something else. Martin said “get off me, get off me,” not Zimmerman. Hence, it seems to me that Zimmerman has initiated physical force and contact with Martin, which gives Martin enough ground to fight back.

Now to Zimmerman’s lie.

Zimmerman claims he followed the dispatcher’s advice and was returning to his vehicle when Martin approached him from behind his left shoulder and asked him,
Why are you following me?
[Note the use of the present tense, which suggests he has not given up looking for Martin, is not returning to his vehicle, and is not approached from behind]
If Zimmerman indeed was returning to his vehicle as the dispatcher asked then Martin would not say “why are you following me,” but rather “why were you following me?” Martin’s girlfriend corroborates this statement of Zimmerman’s.

Something else we must consider is that the witness named John who recalled that Zimmerman was on top of Martin screaming for help recanted his statement in part claiming that “I am no longer sure he was crying for help.”

He said:

"At first, I thought it was the person on the ground, just because, you know, me thinking rationally, if someone was on top, the person on the bottom would be yelling," he said.
Now, though, he said, "I truly can't tell who, after thinking about it, was yelling for help just because it was so dark out on that sidewalk. You can't see a mouth …"

 http://globalgrind.com/...

John goes on to say:

"

The black guy was on top," he told FDLE Investigator John Batchelor. "The guy that was on the ground, under him at that point, wrestling, was definitely a lighter color."
It was dark outside, he said, and at first, he thought he was witnessing a dogfight. When he stepped to the door, he realized it was two people on the ground wrestling.
The person on top was either hitting or pinning the other to the ground, he said. The person on the bottom was struggling to get up.
He yelled at them to stop, he said, "Hey, cut it out," and thought they would, but they didn't, so he stepped inside and headed upstairs to call 911.
He heard a loud pop, "like a rock hitting a window," he said.
When he looked again, the person who had been on top, he said, was "in the grass not moving while the other gentleman has his hands in the air … The one guy that was on the bottom said, 'I shot the other guy in self-defense. The gun is on the ground.' "
Now this description does not necessarily turn Martin into an aggressor. This description can very well mean that Martin pinned Zimmerman down because (1). Zimmerman was hurting him or (2). Zimmerman was about to hurt him.

Two independent voice experts claim that Zimmerman is not screaming for help:

Tom Owen, forensic consultant for Owen Forensic Services LLC and chair emeritus for the American Board of Recorded Evidence, used voice identification software to rule out Zimmerman. Another expert contacted by the Sentinel, utilizing different techniques, came to the same conclusion. . . ” you can say with reasonable scientific certainty that it’s not Zimmerman,” Owen says, stressing that he cannot confirm the voice as Trayvon’s, because he didn’t have a sample of the teen’s voice to compare.
http://www.mediaite.com/...
I arrive at the same conclusion as this lawyer:
Given Zimmerman’s state of mind and intent, I believe he was the aggressor and did not act in self-defense. I also believe he attacked Martin while Martin was talking to his girlfriend and Martin may have struck him with the cell phone several times in self-defense causing the injuries treated by the EMT.
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Comment Preferences

  •  I'm afraid this is a very tough case (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Jon Says, rb608, FG, Demeter Rising, VClib

    for the prosecution to prove.

    I think the cries for help are the crucial item - if the whole jury can be convinced that it is Trayvon Martin screaming, then a conviction is likely.  But with the mixed results from the FBI and independent experts, I doubt that'll happen.

    “What’s the use of having developed a science well enough to make predictions if, in the end, all we’re willing to do is stand around and wait for them to come true?” - Sherwood Rowland

    by jrooth on Mon May 21, 2012 at 09:12:40 AM PDT

    •  Where is the evidence of self defense? (9+ / 0-)

      The ONLY evidence of self defense would be Zimmerman's testimony at TRIAL.  So what is a jury going to base an acquittal on, except the pure disbelief of the prosecution evidence?  Zimmerman chased him.  Zimmerman physiclaly confronted him.  There was a fight.  Zimmerman shot him.  Prosecution rests.  

      Now Zimmerman does, or does not, take the stand.  If he does, he is confronted with his easily provable lie that Martin attacked him from behind.  If he doesn't, who is going to produce evidence of self defense at all?

      A right answer to the wrong question is a wrong answer.

      by legalarray on Mon May 21, 2012 at 09:40:32 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  His injuries. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        coffeetalk, VClib

        He may not even need to testify given the injuries he sustained.

        •  Trickier than it seems. (7+ / 0-)

          There are no significant injuries reprted at the scene or during the arrest  The picures we all see are produced by Zimmerman's agents.  They will have to testify that the injuries occurred at the scene?  I haven't seen that connection. Self infliction has to be considered.

          "He said he his head was hit on the pavement."

          "Objection - hearsay."

          "Sustained , the jury will disregard."

          (That's assuming the statement question wasn't suppressed pretrial.)

          And, again, if Zimmerman testifies, he's toast.

          A right answer to the wrong question is a wrong answer.

          by legalarray on Mon May 21, 2012 at 10:13:40 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  His doctor can testify to his injuries. n/t (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Jon Says, Dr Swig Mcjigger
            •  Prosecutor: Did Zimmerman (8+ / 0-)

              seek medical attention that evening?

              Doctor:  Um... I don't know.

              Prosecutor:  How long after the alleged incident occurred did the defendent come before you, and did he present any emergency care medical records to you, or present any sort of medical records suggesting that he sought medical attention that evening?

              Doctor: Um...

              It's about time I changed my signature.

              by Khun David on Mon May 21, 2012 at 10:48:32 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Better yet . . . (4+ / 0-)

                The prosecution challenges the relevance of the medical testimony on the grounds that some preliminary foundation must be laid that these injuries were sustained at the scene of the homicide.  

                Lots of people don't recognize that physical evidence cannot authenticate itself.  We all found that out the hard way during the OJ trial.  It may be a gazillion to one that it's OJ's blood but still fail to prove that it came from the crime scene.

                From my reading of the Florida cases, it appears that Stand Your Ground didn't change the essential nature of self-defense as an affirmative defense requiring the defense to prove at least a prima facie case before shifting the burden to the prosecution to disprovwe it beyond a reasonable doubt.  I am going to be watching this case very closely to see how the defense threads that needle without putting Zimmerman on the stand.  

                A right answer to the wrong question is a wrong answer.

                by legalarray on Mon May 21, 2012 at 11:20:33 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  you might be interested in the medical report (5+ / 0-)

                completed at the murder site of zimmerman.  it's in that link, fully explained by that law professor.

                in short, approx 20 minutes after murdering trayvon, all of zimmerman's vital functions are utterly normal.  his respiration, blood pressure, skin temperature are all normal.  his injuries are stated to be minor.

                and his injuries are listed as being cause by a blunt object.

                so, not the sidewalk, but maybe a can of arizona tea?

                (we did all note that those head injuries were too far up on his head to be from laying flat on his back on the sidewalk ... so dna on the can of tea, dna tests on the sidewalk?)

                and this is the only medical report we have from an objective source.

                Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, first make sure that you are not, in fact, just surrounding yourself with a-holes - William Gibson.

                by doesnotworkorplaywellwithothers on Mon May 21, 2012 at 01:26:11 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Ice tea can was found in TM's hoodie pocket. (0+ / 0-)

                  The bag was loose and fell on the sidewalk midway in the "debris field" between farthest object and body.  Seems reasonable to deduce that TM fished his snacks or lighter out already and consumed them, and wasn't a litterbug so he put the bag back in his pocket.  

                  The Ice tea can was in his hoodie pocket, and fell out when they tried to do CPR, and later it was set on top of the yellow tarp and photographed.  Getting hit with a can of liquid is sort of like a semi-rigid water balloon.  And it's difficult to wield, sort of a knuckleball move.  I'd jettison that idea.

                  If he hit GZ with anything to cause a one inch vertical gash, it was probably the cell phone that was in his hand - and not hooked up to his headphones that were found in his pocket, or possibly on the ground - some dispute there - but I think the pocket story is right. The cell phone is number 7 in photos that show yellow evidence tags, and seems to be in a position that suggests TM had it in his right hand when it fell.  

                  Talking without a headset after putting his headset away by the mailboxes?  This means that he might have had his phone up to his ear when GZ is claiming he was sucker punched. Practice that move and see if it feels likely.  

                  On the other hand, Dee Dee claims she heard action after the phone "fell."  Did it fall?  or did he carry it 60 more feet?

                  So many things to consider.  But in all of them, GZ seems to have left out the 60 foot chase and pursuit of one by the other.  Maybe he was embarrassed that he ran?  Seems unlikely.  

                  back to the blunt objects, however

                  GZ had a black flashlight that fell like it may have been in his right hand.  That's number 5.  Unless the positions were ever reversed or GZ was hit with his own flashlight, who knows?

                  Number 6 doesn't match any paperwork but is probably the shell casing, which was not found until they removed the body from the grass and got out a metal detector.  

                  Impossible to tell at present from photos alone if either were close enough to have GZ's head on the sidewalk but I am leaning to the side of saying his head wasn't anywhere near one of three utility outlet covers, mini manholes that you can see are around, one for reach unit, probably the water meter.  

                  One odd thing to consider is that if and when TM was astride GZ, the ice tea can could have felt to GZ like TM had something heavy... like a gun in his hoodie.  He has not made that claim however through his surrogates.  

                  •  the can of tea, is in fact all over the place, (0+ / 0-)

                    different reports placing it at different sites.

                    i once lived next door to a fraternity where a full beer can was slammed against someone's head, ultimately killing him.

                    if i was being stalked, and had a plastic bad with a full can of arizona tea (they're huge, no?) i would swing with a vengeance.  especially if the big thug was on top of me.  

                    on the other hand, a large flashlight is even better.

                    don't forget how high up on his head zimmerman's one inch injury was.  is it likely it could have come from the edge of the sidewalk or cement covers?

                    i still say, with the right jury, zimmerman will not be able to sell his self defense story.  and i'm leaning towards thinking that the judge won't allow a syg defense to dismiss the case in hearing.  

                    Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, first make sure that you are not, in fact, just surrounding yourself with a-holes - William Gibson. (-9.75 / -9.05)

                    by doesnotworkorplaywellwithothers on Tue May 22, 2012 at 05:57:53 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  but GZ never claimed to be hit w a can (0+ / 0-)

                      So I'm not sure what his motivation for luying about it would be.  Are you suggesting that TM hit him with a can at one spot, up by the T and then put the can back into his hoodie pocket before the foot chase to John;s backyard?  Seems unlikely to me.  

                      And yes, the can moved but it also seems yery unlikely that a police officer would put it back into his pocket.  Unless you are claiming conspiracy, which I also doubt would take that form even if it were going on, which I also doubt.  

                      Much more likely is that the can is reported in the order it was seen.  First in the hoodie, then next to the body, then on the tarp.  If you are still on this tack, note that the cops arrive in one order but don't necessarily approach the body in the exact same order, or have evidence notation as a first priority.  

                      But yes, it could be a deadly weapon if used to pole-axe someone with in a stabbing motion.  I just don't see that happening here.  One reason is that TM had the cell phone in one hand, assuming again that these darn cops aren't totally incompetent.  He was talking to DeeDee at the start of all this.  

              •  Khun - the most persuasive testimony (0+ / 0-)

                on Zimmerman's injuries will be given by the paramedics at the scene. However, I do think that Zimmerman's physician could also be a credible witness on the issue of injuries sustained during the altercation. I don't thing the fact that Zimmerman did not go to the emergency room that night is substantive. Zimmerman did not receive any life threatening injuries and there was no reason to travel by ambulance to the emergency room.

                "let's talk about that"

                by VClib on Mon May 21, 2012 at 03:10:44 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  legalarray - the paramedics will testify (0+ / 0-)

            The paramedics treated Zimmerman at the scene. Their testimony will be important.

            "let's talk about that"

            by VClib on Mon May 21, 2012 at 03:17:33 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Seems to me that Martin sustained (4+ / 0-)

          some more substantial injuries.  

    •  Almost impossible. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Jon Says, Dr Swig Mcjigger, VClib

      It's extremely difficult to see how he'll be convicted of anything at this point.  The FDL stuff is, at best, wishful thinking.

    •  No it's not (5+ / 0-)

      The moment Zimmerman got out of his car he was in the wrong. Trayvon Martin had a right to be where he was and was not committing any violation of the law.

      But for Zimmerman leaving his vehicle, Trayvon Martin would be alive. That's is a powerful fact that is going to be tough to dispute. At a minimum, his lawyer is going to have to convince the jury that there was a reason for Zimmerman to get out and confront his victim. Good luck with that.

      I believe the toughest hurdle for the prosecution is getting past the judge and before the jury. If they get it to a jury, the facts , and the law are clearly not on Zimmerman's side.

      "There is nothing more dreadful than the habit of doubt. Doubt separates people. It is a poison that disintegrates friendships and breaks up pleasant relations. It is a thorn that irritates and hurts; it is a sword that kills.".. Buddha

      by sebastianguy99 on Mon May 21, 2012 at 10:11:06 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  It's not a "but for" test. (6+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Jon Says, campionrules, FG, Simian, erush1345, VClib

        If Zimmerman had stayed home, if Martin had stayed home, if Martin had taken another way home . . . a zillion "if's" and Martin would be alive.

        That's not legally the test.  It means nothing.

        There was nothing illegal about Zimmerman leaving his car, nothing illegal about Zimmerman following Martin (doesn't come close to the legal definition of stalking), nothing illegal about Zimmerman asking Martin what he was doing -- if that's all Zimmerman did.  So, it doesn't matter that "but for" doing those things, Martin would be alive.

        •  Zimmerman made physical contact with Martin and (4+ / 0-)

          that's why Martin yelled get off of me!

          (Martin's girlfriend's account)

          If Zimmerman initiated contact with force then Martin can fight back.

          •  Physical contact (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Shawn Russell, Avila, Tonedevil

            legally, is assault.

            It's about time I changed my signature.

            by Khun David on Mon May 21, 2012 at 10:49:43 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  IANAL - (3+ / 0-)

              but as a former LEO it was always written up as Verbal = Assault, Physical = Battery.

              If you play Microsoft CD's backwards, you hear satanic things, but that's nothing, because if you play them forwards, they install Windows.

              by Unit Zero on Mon May 21, 2012 at 11:11:42 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Certainly it is. However, that has not been (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              nextstep

              proven...that is the whole case right there.  There is nothing at all illegal about Zimmerman getting out of his car.  There is nothing at all illegal about Zimmerman following Trayvon.  There is nothing at all illegal about asking Trayvon anything.  None of those things, even if Zimmerman did each one of them would give the state a case, since none of them or even a combination of them are illegal.

              However, if Zimmerman physically hit, pushed, hurt, restrained or whatever Trayvon physically, even for a mere second.....then the state absolutely has a case, no doubt about it. Zimmerman had no right to touch Trayvon in any way. That would have been illegal, and of course at that point, Trayvon would then have had the legal right to defend himself.  However, the state must prove that this physical contact occurred. As we know at the moment, they only have one third party statement over a phone and with no backing witnesses nor physical evidence to prove that Trayvon was physically assaulted before being shot...thus I would think the state has a long way to go in proving physical contact.

              •  There are no witnesses (0+ / 0-)

                That saw Trayvon throw the first punch.

                •  It's not about the first punch. Self defense and (0+ / 0-)

                  even Stand your Ground have thresholds that must be crossed in order for a defendant to successfully use it as a defense.  That threshold can be crossed multiple times, lost and regained again and even switched back and forth from each party involved in a fight over and over again.  That's the problem here...you have to have proof of some kind or a strong preponderance of evidence.

                  Okay say Zimmerman got out of his car, followed Trayvon, and even asked him "What are you doing here?"....at this point a crime has not been committed, by Zimmerman.   Even if Trayvon is doing nothing and is totally innocent, or he is nervous, or scared or even in the middle of doing something illegal....at this point Zimmerman has committed no crime at all , he had every right to do all he did (perhaps not morally but legally, yes) but regardless Trayvon cannot touch him...period.

                  Okay now let's say Zimmerman grabbed him and said "What are you doing?"  Now we have a different story.  Zimmerman has now committed a crime.  We have to prove it but if true a crime has been committed and Trayvon now has the right to defend himself.  If Zimmerman grabbed him only, can Trayvon break his nose?  No....unless it can be proven that at the second of the grab Trayvon was fearful of his life being in jeopardy.  Can Trayvon shake him off, push him off or push him to the ground to get away?  Sure.  What if Zimmerman busted his head while being pushed down?  Oh well, shouldn't have grabbed him.  Can Trayvon jump on top of him and beat his head in the concrete?  No, not legally as now that threshold has been crossed the other way, when Trayvon is in control and no longer in fear of his life and Zimmerman would now be in fear of his life....and now then right to defend himself is Zimmerman's right.

                  Now what if in the beginning, Zimmerman had pulled out the gun and said "What are you doing?" Now we have a way different case.  Now could Trayvon legally jump on top of him and bang his head in the concrete?  Sure, because if Trayvon had just pushed him off Zimmerman could still have shot him. So any reasonable person could say that if Trayvon was threatened with a gun from the moment of conflict, surely he felt his life in danger from then on....and since he was unarmed and only had his fists, then he would need to get in control and stay in control until someone assisted him or the police showed up.

                  I even think it could be argued that even if Trayvon jumped him and then saw the gun, even if Trayvon was the one in control and committing the assault at that point....and then by accident saw the gun....I think even at that point you could argue that Trayvon was now the fearful one and would be the one to have the right of self-defense.  Just my opinion but if you are fighting in what you think to be a fist fight and then you see they are carrying a gun, it might make you stop out of shock and then step back long enough to allow the other person to get the upper hand on you....thus again transferring the right to self defense back to Trayvon.  

                  It's all about who had the right at the second the shot was fired....and with enough proof to back that up to convince the judge or jury hearing the case.  
                   

        •  The victim had a right to buy snacks. (7+ / 0-)

          A criminal trial by jury is not a torts class. Juries aren't legally trained. Presentation of the theory and underlying facts matter. Strategy and rhetoric matters as well.

          A jury is going to want to know why Zimmerman got out of his vehicle with a loaded gun and confronted a stranger on his way home with snacks.

          The question is not whether it was legal for him to have done so, but whether or not his actions lead to a confrontation that ended in the death of Trayvon Martin.

          I stand by my assertion. There is a threshold question that is going to be in the minds of the jurors and defense counsel is going to have to answer it if he is to win his case. "It was legal" is not going to be sufficient, IMHO.

          "There is nothing more dreadful than the habit of doubt. Doubt separates people. It is a poison that disintegrates friendships and breaks up pleasant relations. It is a thorn that irritates and hurts; it is a sword that kills.".. Buddha

          by sebastianguy99 on Mon May 21, 2012 at 10:34:36 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  A difficult obstacle for the prosection (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        VClib, Zornorph

        (and for those of us insisting on Zimmerman's guilt) is the fact that George Zimmerman had every right to get out of his truck and walk down the street.  His getting out of his truck to pursue Martin was not in itself a violent or provocative act.  In that sense, it will matter who, when the two met, initiated the confrontation.  I believe it was Zimmerman; but the prosecution is going to have to prove that, I believe.

        You can't spell CRAZY without R-AZ.

        by rb608 on Mon May 21, 2012 at 11:28:29 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  cutting off someone's access to his home (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          rb608, Tonedevil, Avila

          isn't provocative?

          coming up without introducing themselves, identifying themselves as neighborhood watch isn't provocative?

          Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, first make sure that you are not, in fact, just surrounding yourself with a-holes - William Gibson.

          by doesnotworkorplaywellwithothers on Mon May 21, 2012 at 01:32:03 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Quite right, but (1+ / 0-)

            Z, alas, had as much right to walk down any sidewalk he wanted as did Martin.  But you are right; the moment he directly forced Martin to interact with him, he became an aggressor.  

            You can't spell CRAZY without R-AZ.

            by rb608 on Mon May 21, 2012 at 02:13:56 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  yes of course you're right, he had the right. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              rb608

              but in what state of mind was he doing it (so to speak)?

              and why was he doing it?  martin was going home to deliver the skittles to his little bro.

              for zimmerman, walking down the sidewalk was the result of his original profiling.

              Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, first make sure that you are not, in fact, just surrounding yourself with a-holes - William Gibson.

              by doesnotworkorplaywellwithothers on Mon May 21, 2012 at 03:18:02 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

  •  This video with Trayvon is breakng out now (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Avila

    Does anyone know about this youtube video?  Is it legitimate?  It sounds like maybe Trayvon is in the background speaking and someone says his name right at the beginning of the video.  His voice does sound high-pitched, which would help the case that he was the one screaming for help.  Would this be enough to match analyze the 911 calls?  Does this video, if real, hurt the case by showing Trayvon was involved with violence?   Would it be admissable in court?

    http://www.youtube.com/...

    •  the attorney for the martin/fulton family (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Avila

      knew about that video, expected it to make it's appearance soon.  i believe they thought it invalid in some way.

      and clinking on the link, leads to a statement that  youtube has pulled the video for a terms of service violation.

      it would be interesting to know what is going on with this.

      Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, first make sure that you are not, in fact, just surrounding yourself with a-holes - William Gibson.

      by doesnotworkorplaywellwithothers on Mon May 21, 2012 at 01:57:21 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  If Trayvon was on top (4+ / 0-)

    of Zimmerman when he was shot there would be blood on the front of Zimmerman.  I am under the impression there was no blood found on Zimmerman.  I also think the film of Z arriving and disembarqing at the police station will be crucial.  There is no sign of any injury in that video.  I feel the trial will lay waste to most of what Z claims.

    And she's good at appearing sane, I just want you to know. Winwood/Capaldi

    by tobendaro on Mon May 21, 2012 at 10:40:57 AM PDT

    •  I agree. I'm not a forensics expert, (3+ / 0-)

      but if Zimmerman is alleging he shot Martin while Martin was on top of him, that absence of blood is a hard thing to believe.  That, and all of the other inconsistencies, will severely undermine Z's credibility methinks.

      You can't spell CRAZY without R-AZ.

      by rb608 on Mon May 21, 2012 at 11:32:08 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  isn't there something that once the heart stops (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Avila, Bailey2001

        it of course immediately stops pumping blood.  

        this is why dead people do not bleed - there is no circulation of blood.  it pools within the body and stays there. it's not like it 'leaks' out of the 'hole'

        trayvon must have died instantly.

        Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, first make sure that you are not, in fact, just surrounding yourself with a-holes - William Gibson.

        by doesnotworkorplaywellwithothers on Mon May 21, 2012 at 07:16:27 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  okay, i just checked around (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Avila

          dead bodies do not bleed after about 30 minutes from point of death: the blood pools at the lowest point of gravity, and a cut at that point will cause oozing, but not true bleeding.

          a wound would 'bleed'  the blood 'above it' on it's way to seeking it's own level.  

          if that makes sense.

          so basically, i think we're back at the same point: where's the blood on zimmerman?

          Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, first make sure that you are not, in fact, just surrounding yourself with a-holes - William Gibson.

          by doesnotworkorplaywellwithothers on Mon May 21, 2012 at 07:32:49 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Plus Trayvon had multiple layers of clothing on (2+ / 0-)

          blood splatter would have blow up and then toward the back of Trayvon and away from the shooter.  

          •  i guess i can't visualise that. (0+ / 0-)

            i guess because there is such a thing as blood pressure.
            we probably won't know until we see a forensic's testimony.

            Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, first make sure that you are not, in fact, just surrounding yourself with a-holes - William Gibson. (-9.75 / -9.05)

            by doesnotworkorplaywellwithothers on Tue May 22, 2012 at 12:40:29 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  It happened in seconds, so blood had no time (0+ / 0-)

              to get on Zimmerman.  Remember the police arrived 23 seconds after the shot was fired and Zimmerman was already up.

               IF Trayvon was shot on top of Zimmerman, the blood splatter would have been up and/or away from the shooter.  The type of bullets used in Zimmerman's gun expand outward once the target is hit and thus caused the inside damage to be go from side to side and that partly explains the lack of an exit wound.  Multiple layers of clothing (as we know he wore) would have also kept blood at bay and showed down the blood that would have come back down after the blast  for the seconds it took for Zimmerman to get up.

               Also consider, in regard to blood pressure, that Trayvon was shot in the heart, and his heart stopped beating instantly because of hollow point bullets expanding, thus most likely he died almost instantly and his heart was no longer beating to produce blood pressure needed for it to be an issue here. Basically, most likely there was no blood pressure after the shot was fired.  If he had been shot anywhere else, then his heart would have continued beating until he passed, seconds or minutes or days later...and thus blood pressure would have been present after the shot were fired.  Of course in that set of circumstances, there would have been blood pressure to consider.

    •  and how did he get out from under trayvon (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Avila, tobendaro

      and have trayvon end up on his stomach?

      Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, first make sure that you are not, in fact, just surrounding yourself with a-holes - William Gibson.

      by doesnotworkorplaywellwithothers on Mon May 21, 2012 at 01:33:24 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  False Logic (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Demeter Rising, VClib

    This assumes that Martin's girlfriend was describing the situation accurately.

  •  The tense difference does not warrant (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    solliges

    the inference drawn by the diarist. Martin may have said why "are" you following me even if Zimmerman was returning to his car. Martin had no way of knowing whether Zimmerman had given up the chase--these events all take place within a single minute. So the girlfriend's story doesn't really contradict Zimmerman re. what the first thing Martin said.

    What's more, whether or not Martin was returning to his car doesn't settle anything either. What matters is what happens right before the shot.  If the proof that the person in the recording begging "please don't" was not Zimmerman (and why would it be?"), Zimmerman should be convicted.

    You can tell Monopoly is an old game because there's a luxury tax and rich people can go to jail.

    by Simian on Mon May 21, 2012 at 12:52:57 PM PDT

    •  exactly. (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Avila, solliges, VClib, Simian

      it comes down to those last 44 seconds.

      Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, first make sure that you are not, in fact, just surrounding yourself with a-holes - William Gibson.

      by doesnotworkorplaywellwithothers on Mon May 21, 2012 at 01:36:11 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  GZ's never "returning to his vehicle" and he lied (4+ / 0-)

        The most important evidence for the prosecution is still under seal, and that is the (according to the prosecution) inconsistent testimony of George Zimmerman.

        He's  got a GREAT self defense story.  It just isn't a credible one, is all.  He had the legal right to be walking around, he had the legal right to carry a gun, he was battered about the head and shoulders by Trayvon Martin, and he was the one who called for help, too I think.  

        But he was not the one told police the fight started in one place and ended 50-60 feet away.  His keys are up by the T in the sidewalk, and his flashlight is 50 feet away.  

        Trayvon's 7Eleven bag is 30 feet from the keys.  The body is another 15-20 feet from there.  

        I also think TM hit GZ with his cell phone, which was in his hand.  Reports differ due to shoddy police work but it's probable his headphones were no longer on his head and possibly in his pocket, so when he was speaking to DeeDee he had the phone up to his head.  

        We can't know if Tm hit GZ first or not, but just becasue GZ was walking west doesn't prove he was returning to his truck or that he had given up looking for the teen.  In fact, of you follow the logic of his movements according to what his father says, and leave out the motive, GZ is running down all the possibilities in the maze that was the cut thru, dog walk and Retreat View Circle, the three ways Trayvon had to go once he left the street (twin trees lane) and took to the grass.  

        In a physical sense, one does not "return to the vehicle" without GETTING there.  GZ never got there.  Instead, he was walking around in the dark with a loaded weapon and his flashlight on.  

        And, most importantly, he SEEMS  to have told the police a tale that doesn't fit the physical evidence.  His surrogates claim a short verbal exchange followed by a "sucker punch" that put both to the ground at the place where they met (aka where GZ was approached from behind or "jumped.")  
        The scattered "debris field" here suggests that someone had instigated the altercation at one point, and then the two moved to another quite some distance.  

        The very first thing that the prosecutor asked his own investigator when the man took the stand at the bond hearing was (after establishing his credentials) a question about a witness who saw a two person foot chase.  In the 183 pg  documents we have now seen, which represent only a part of the evidence the prosecution will present at trial look on page 40-41 for a statement from this witness taken very soon after the shooting.  She says the two were 10-12 feet apart and there was a chaser and a person being chased.  No matter who chased who 60 feet, this doesn't remotely match GZ's story.  And so I believe he is lying.  

        The very LAST thing that the prosecutor did at the bond hearing is get GZ to sa "Absolutely not." to the question of "did your statements show inconsistencies?"  

        And that is their case at it's heart.  GZ is pushing a false narrative and lied to investigators, and the witness and physical evidence show the fight didn't happen the way he says it did.  They might have a lto more than this, but even if they don't I think it shows that GZ embellished his tale several ways to include exculpatory details he had no idea could be refuted since Trayvon had witnesses on the phone and nearby who can prove, not that GZ was the aggressor or that GZ threw the first punch, but that whatever GZ said was not true, and thus his "corroborating evidence" is in support of a false narrative.  

        Those who feel GZ has a good case think he's telling the whole truth, and havea  hard time seeing the obvious - he bent the truth wherever he thought he could get away with it, and he himself BELIEVES he acted in self defense, likely as well, but so did Trayvon Martin.

        One man had an innocent path to his truck, east on the cut thru.  ANother had an innocent path to his home, on the dog walk.   The body and GZ were found on the dog walk that led to Trayvon's home.    Who closed the gap?  

        •  Hi Willis (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Tonedevil

          I see you have been digging in. Good comment. Which flaslight are you talking about, the keychain one or the black one?

          •  Keychain light placement is established (2+ / 0-)

            It's way up by the sidewalk, even with the edge of the first tree more or less.  There is a big orangey brown maple type leaf on the sidewalk next to it.  

            The keychain light was still on when the officers found it, and the other was larger so I'd deduce that the big one didn't work, or crapped out at some point.  Some clam to head GZ messing with it on his call but I've not bothered to listen for it.  

            There are several scenarios to consider given the scattered "debris field, " I've been calling in honor of a shipwreck at the bottom of the ocean , I guess.  But none of them seem to match GZ's story in any plausible manner that I can come up with.  

            At the bond hearing there was some verbal jousting about "I can't recall" type inconsistencies GZ probably made in his statements.   I can image plent of scenarios now where GZ would have to invoke that weak excuse to make his proxy-told story stand up under questioning.

            But, as we can see the evidence is all circumstantial to prove his lies and maybe that's why Wolfinger didn't want to take it. IANAL.  

            But I feel like my basic suspicion that I have been pushing for weeks is borne out.  The location of the body is going to prove that GZ has pushed a false narrative and lied to investigators.  

        •  i think much of what you say is true: (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Tonedevil

          zimmerman lied.  though i think you are dead wrong that it is zimmerman crying out.  did you read patriot daily news clearance's extraordinary diary on this?

          but this case is going to be decided on pure common sense.  

          zimmerman set up a situation where he profiled, pursued, and provoked a confrontation with a minor who had every right to be where he was, and in doing so broke just about every guideline of neighborhood watch.

          it doesn't matter if zimmerman had a right to be where he is, the reason why he was there goes straight to state of mind.   that's what a jury will want to know: why if he said he thought trayvon looked iffy, did he leave the safety of his vehicle to pursue him in the rain.  

          the girlfriend's testimony will be damning as well: she is averring that zimmerman provoked and pushed trayvon.

          and finally there are those 44 seconds of trayvon, not zimmerman, screaming 'please don't please don't' with no other sound of struggle or fight going on.

          common sense will tell jurors that sounds such as we hear in those 44 seconds could not have been made by a man with a gun, and could only be made by someone with a gun being pointed at him .  common sense will tell them that the voice on that tape does not belong to the person in the courtroom.

          common sense will tell them that if trayvon's phone conversation ended at 7:16 and the gun rang out at 7:17, everything zimmerman says happened, could in fact not have happened.

          common sense will tell them that the minor injuries zimmerman sustained and all the attendant issues of when he sought treatment, do not constitute in and of themselves, fear for one's life.  

          zimmerman himself will have to go on the stand and explain why he felt threatened. and that is the point at which the defense side will fall apart.

          this case will be decided on common sense, as are many murder2 cases.

          Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, first make sure that you are not, in fact, just surrounding yourself with a-holes - William Gibson. (-9.75 / -9.05)

          by doesnotworkorplaywellwithothers on Tue May 22, 2012 at 01:00:28 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  i dont have much opinion on whose voice calls out (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Tonedevil

            I do wonder why the calls never seem to get interrupted as though someone was being punched in the face.. I just can't hear what is going on very well and figure if the FBI can't either then it's not going to be a clear issue in a trial.

            I'll read what you are talking about provided I can find it.  I've not read much since the document dump.  The air is filled with loose speculation.  We don't know what all Corey has to prove her case with.  And we don't have a clue what GZ told investigators on the night or what he had to say for himself the next day at the walk thru and the harshest grilling afterwards.  His father was at the walk thru and is NOT a lawyer however and therefor he can be compelled to testify as to what he told his son about self defense cases, I am betting.  IANAL

            Corey released the minimum of what she felt she had to at this time, and will have more to give to the defense in the future as well.  This pile seems to represent what Wolfinger walked away from, in many ways.  It looks thin.  But I think it shows what the truth is in spite of all that.  IANAL however so I don't know if it's enough to win a M2 case with or not.

            You should read some of what is written at TalkLeft for a good perspective on the legal side of what is germane in a courtroom or not.  I don't agree with many things written there but they do seem to know how the law gets applied in a trial fairly well.  

            I don't know that Mark O'Mara wants to put GZ on the stand unless he absolutely has to, and he would be wise to wait and see if the prosecution can prove its case or not.  They have an uphill road in many ways.  

            DeeDee gave a clear deposition but the "get off, get off" statement was not mentioned in conjunction with her earliest account, AFAIK.  The defense will make something of that.  

            There has been a lot of "mission creep" as eyewitnesses appear in the media and are asked more and have more time to reflect and develop their bias, overt or subconscious.  

            The state of mind thing we are in agreement on although possibly coming at it from different directions.  I'm taking the idea that he never meant to return to his truck, either.  He's got scant evidence to corroborate that statement other than the fact that he walked west at one point.  He walked east for a lot more, and had his flashlight on when he got to the T.  Plus of course as I've been saying for weeks and weeks, he wasn't planning on meeting officers at his vehicle anyway.  

            common sense will tell them that if trayvon's phone conversation ended at 7:16 and the gun rang out at 7:17, everything zimmerman says happened, could in fact not have happened.
            I'm not sure what you mean by this or how it would be proven in court.  I do think that if you go through the witness statements not with an eye on who said what or what was happening on the ground as they struggled but simply concentrate on HOW LONG the initial verbal exchange was, and how likely the two person foot chase seems, it may give investigators a more true picture of how the two moved so far.  

            Again, we don't know GZ's actual statements and how much they morphed overnight, but if what his surrogates put out there is what he said in the end, then he's leaving out a huge part of what happened at the least.   I suppose he can always claim he accidentally dropped his keys and flashlight by the T though, and then innocently walked 60 feet away from his route to his vehicle and THEN he was jumped and punched to the ground.    Who knows.  

            •  the cell phone records annd the 911 call records (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Tonedevil

              mechanically and impartially record the end of the call and the time the shot rang out.

              given that there could be seconds that are not accounted for in that 7:16, 7:17 time frame, we have maybe, at the most, an extra 120 seconds in play, of which 44 are taken up with trayvons screams.

              that leaves approx. 75 seconds for everything else zimmerrman says happens.  is it possible?  that is what jurors will be asking.  

              i'll check out the talkleft site.  and here's the link to PDNC's great diary:

              http://www.dailykos.com/...  

              Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, first make sure that you are not, in fact, just surrounding yourself with a-holes - William Gibson. (-9.75 / -9.05)

              by doesnotworkorplaywellwithothers on Tue May 22, 2012 at 02:58:28 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  75 seconds seems long enough (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Tonedevil

                In fact it almost seems too long for what GZ is claiming - a short verbal exchange followed by a sucker punch that puts both onto the ground.  

                From witness statements it seems to me the verbal back and forth went on for longer than what we have heard GZ via surrogates:  

                You got a problem? no /Now you do punch to the ground.  

                ( the FDL author has mis stated himself when he says "Zimmerman's statement" - we don't have his statement(s) to Sanford investigators.  We only have his father and brother and Joe the Oliver and Frank Taafee and his original lawyers statements.  They vary, but ones that relate actual wording have more of a street vernacular spoken.  I think what I have above is a good general consensus of what GZ's surrogates said but I'd love to revisit that with all the info at my fingertips.  

                To me that's the problem - too much time, not enough words spoken by either.   People seem to have heard more than that going on in an argumentative manner.  Later there are cries for help but I doubt any of that sounded like two people arguing.  

                I find it hard to believe GZ when he claims TM gave a verbal death threat after discovering the presence of a holstered gun.  Most sensible people would get the gun before making such a threat.  No finger prints of TM were found on the weapon, although I have heard a rumor that the second round failed to chamber somehow, suggesting that TM had his hand on the gun as it fired.  hard to prove when or if that would have happened, and like I said to me so far it's just a rumor.  It could be a rumor that originated from the picture of the empty weapon in evidence, with the slide moved back.  In which case, nevermind.  Has anyone else heard this about a second round not chambering?  

                •  did i give you the link to FDL piece? (0+ / 0-)

                  i didn't mean to, i don't think it is really all that great, except for bits here and there.  

                  i do think PDNC piece was great.  so well done.

                  i think people are putting too much emphasis on who did what first, and zimmerman's injuries.

                  zimmerman cannot just claim that he felt his life threatened.  he's going to have to get up on the stand in front of jurors who are going to have plenty of questions about that, and tell them why it was.  the injuries are not going to sell it.

                  the jury is really going to want to know why he got out of that car and tracked trayvon.  and that is going to mean treating the issue of profiling.

                  like someone else here who originally posted on it, i think if the prosecution can get past the SYG hearing, and in front of a jury, they may be home free. alan dershowitz to the contrary.

                  i know less than nothing about firearms.  much has been made about using hollow tipped bullets.  in a bad 'sinister' sort of way. i have no idea what that is all about or what it would mean that the second chamber didn't fire.  it certainly didn't need to, did it?  that zimmerman even would contemplate a second bullet suggest to me not his fear, but the degree he was out of control.  i think he is a near psychopath, certainly mentally unstable and unable to adhere to a reasonable version of reality, and easily piqued to rage.  

                  trayvon was just 2 weeks into being 17.  his text messages were full of worries about SAT scores and what's a good college.  he didn't make a death threat against anyone. that whole line of thinking, that somehow zimerman is justified after chasing and profiling a minor, and then killing him in self-defense is to me, inherently racist. in this regard, the statement from the police, that the whole incident could have been avoided if zimmerman stayed in his car as he was asked to, is a good deal more significant than people are right now seeing.  

                   trayvon was a mere unwitting actor in the little movie playing between george zimmerman's ears.

                  Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, first make sure that you are not, in fact, just surrounding yourself with a-holes - William Gibson. (-9.75 / -9.05)

                  by doesnotworkorplaywellwithothers on Tue May 22, 2012 at 05:46:37 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  PDNC diary post was good blogging (1+ / 0-)

                    but not really responsible sleuthing, or something, to push the "i have a gun i have a gun" witness as somehow proof of anything sinister since these words are clearly after the gunshot.  GZ was telling the cop who had HIS gun drawn that he had a concealed weapon on him as he was approached.  And PDNC used this to support a sensational title to his blog, which we all do from time to time but it was misleading.  

                    And all these diaries bring out a flood of emotion that is touching but not really helping figure out what happened, or how the trial might establish the facts in the case.  

                    Because all the moral outrage in the world won't gain a prosecution a guilty verdict unless they can PROVE in court all the things they need to prove to show Murder 2.  And they seem confident they can get such a verdict.  

                    So I keep trying to focus on what actually happened (my first priority for commenting and reading posts)  and what can actually be shown to a jury in court as an established fact in the case.  (because IANAL.)

                    There was not ONE fight here.  The "debris field" of flashlights and bags and keys, etc makes clear there was some activity in one place and another activity in another, some 60 feet away.  And that is MAJORLY significant, and I don't yet see anyone questioning what this means.  

                    GZ seems to claim there was ONE fight, the one he was losing and it took place where the OTHER activity happened.  Because I can't see why his keys are way the hell up by the T and the fight is way the hell down by John's patio if TM sucker punched him to the ground in either spot.

                    You have followed this a long time, and have good insights often.  What do you make of the "scattered debris field" because I think it damn near proves the guy is guilty of lying to investigators just by itself.

                    I'd like to see a compilation of all the surrogate versions of GZ's statement to investigators, since we can't have the real thing yet.  I've heard them all but would like to review them.  I think we have Joe the Oliver, Frank Taaffe,  Robert Zimmerman and GZ's brother, plus the two clowns who were GZ's publicity seeking "legal advisors" before they were fired or quit.   I can't recall any of them explaining how the fight moved 50-60 feet after the two met up.  

                    •  First off, i need to study the whole debris field (0+ / 0-)

                      as you eloquently call it.  i need to sit down and make a timeline and place it against everything that's been said.  because i can smell something's way off, but i can't place it.  need to see it visually. i wish i had started one right away.  

                      george is soooooooo lying, left, right and center.  there is just no way it can all fit into that time span and still end up where it all ended up.  i think he lied to investigators, i think investigators drew him out to watch him lie - chris serino said as much - and i think that is why the prosecution made a point of asking z in his bond hearing if he had ever prevaricated - or whatever the word is.  when george said 'no, never'  i think he quietly blew it.  no one commented much on it then, but i promise: that will come back to bite him.  get him on the stand and it is all over.

                      no, there was not just one 'fight'.  imo.  off hand, i think george is a rageaholic, an explosive personality and i've had the thought a few times that he was not about to let trayvon get away; he could not reflect on what he was doing and change courses.   i'm basing this on what ive read of their personalities and i truly think that trayvon is not likely to have attacked or gone after someone.  i think george - who has been in and out of trouble in the past 5-7 years, could have.  i was shocked to read some of the thing he posted on a my space page, and to read what people have said about him.  this person is not well adhered to an acceptable version of reality, imo.

                      i'm going to look at the debris field and will see i can see.  

                      let me say too, that someone mentioned the 'i've got a gun' error and i thought PDNC said it would be corrected.

                      Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, first make sure that you are not, in fact, just surrounding yourself with a-holes - William Gibson. (-9.75 / -9.05)

                      by doesnotworkorplaywellwithothers on Tue May 22, 2012 at 07:26:26 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  i'm having problems with the (0+ / 0-)

                      various conflicting police reports too.  another reason for setting it out visually.  

                      Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, first make sure that you are not, in fact, just surrounding yourself with a-holes - William Gibson. (-9.75 / -9.05)

                      by doesnotworkorplaywellwithothers on Tue May 22, 2012 at 07:36:11 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  my own visual analysis work in progress here (1+ / 0-)

                        http://www.flickr.com/...

                        If there is one photo that tells the whole talk it may be this one:

                        http://www.flickr.com/...

                        take a look and give me notes on the flickr page or in direct replies to my comments anywhere.  I may not see them elsewhere.  I don't want to influence your fresh opinion by saying too much now.  My own thoughts are not settled but I think it paints a clear picture of what really happened.  But of course I am guessing.  

                        •  this is a pretty good compilation of the various (0+ / 0-)

                          versions of zimmerman's story, set against a hour/minute/second timeline which explains at the very beginning a possible 30 second discrepancy between t-mobile's time stamp and that of the 911 police dispatch.

                          http://viewfromll2.com/...

                          Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, first make sure that you are not, in fact, just surrounding yourself with a-holes - William Gibson. (-9.75 / -9.05)

                          by doesnotworkorplaywellwithothers on Wed May 23, 2012 at 02:40:22 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  that's close enough (0+ / 0-)

                            I'd dispute some things here but certainly not the substance of what's said.  I think GZ first passed TM around the 1300 block of RVC and followed him in his moving cat to the mailbox area.  I also think he called the cops from clsoer to the mailbox than where he exited his vehicle, based on the amount of time it takes TM to leave the mailboxes and pass the car.  This puts the vehicle facing east neat the cut thru, which also may have blocked the sightline of GZ and prevented him from noticing that TM cut south into the dog walk area, which I think he did on the grass trail that rounds the corner you can see here

                            link to Frank Taafee tv report
                            http://www.flickr.com/...

                            But all that seems pretty much a given to me at this point.  GZ walked the cut thru after TM took the dog walk path.  Then they met, and someone closed a gap of some kind.  

                            What's at issue is where did they spot one another and how did the fight start.  Now that we have some idea of there the "debris field" is located we see that the action ranged some 50-60 feet from the T all the way down to John's back yard, much too far for one shove or any UNINTENTIONAL advance and retreat actions by the two parties.  We can suppose that TM was the aggressor, and still you don't come out with a scenario that doesn't include GZ moving deliberately with some sort of intent to intercept, detain, continue the struggle, etc from one place to another - and that's hardly his tale.  He claims to have been sucker punched to the ground where the two first met.  

                          •  AND i've recently added to my thoughts (0+ / 0-)

                            an inclination towards thinking that zimmerman was not only armed, but openly so.

                            i think that the click that we hear on his original 911 call is him loading a cartidge in his gun.  and i've been wondering how he got to the gun in his waistband holeter if he was pinned down.  that's always puzzled me.

                            if what you are saying is, that there is no way for zimmerman to not have moved at some point deliberately to detain trayvon, then that's it.  

                            game is over

                            he bramdished a gun in a public space and went after trayvon with reckless intent.

                            i wonder if the prosecution has the fbi forensics lab saying that was a gun being loaded?

                            Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, first make sure that you are not, in fact, just surrounding yourself with a-holes - William Gibson. (-9.75 / -9.05)

                            by doesnotworkorplaywellwithothers on Thu May 24, 2012 at 02:12:31 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  correction: 'if what you are saying is TRUE..' (0+ / 0-)

                            Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, first make sure that you are not, in fact, just surrounding yourself with a-holes - William Gibson. (-9.75 / -9.05)

                            by doesnotworkorplaywellwithothers on Thu May 24, 2012 at 02:14:37 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  far from game over. Very far. (0+ / 0-)

                            The prosecution has to prove this stuff happened, and the witnesses are thin, the evidence is thin, and the original investigation was less than stellar.  

                            One of the "best" witnesses that speaks to the fight migrating is the near hysterical teacher, and she's changing her story already from having seen two people to just one runner now.  

                            Mary and Selma are clearly biased and may not do well under cross examination.  

                            No one saw how the fight started.  

                            The fact that there was a set of keys 40 feet away doesn't prove anything by itself.  

                            Still, I think GZ is pushing a false narrative and might have changed his story quite a bit from the first night to the next day, but we just don't know that.  

                            And the laws are so poorly written...  people have done some rotten things morally and gotten away with, well murder.

                            I'm still in the position of a suspicious investigator, hoping to see and learn more about what really happened.  

                          •  prosecution is saying that (0+ / 0-)

                            george has contradicted himself and his statements don't jive with the evidence.

                            http://www.reuters.com/...

                            nothing we didn't already know.

                            Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, first make sure that you are not, in fact, just surrounding yourself with a-holes - William Gibson. (-9.75 / -9.05)

                            by doesnotworkorplaywellwithothers on Thu May 24, 2012 at 07:13:12 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  what I get from this is about strategy (1+ / 0-)

                            GZ's statements to the Sanford Investigators are not yet in the public realm - this we know - but they are also not yet in the HANDS of the defense team, and Corey is pressing her advantage here.  George has to try and recall what he's said and what he hasn't said over the course of three/five times he told his story.  

                            His statements are legally classified as confessions in Florida, and as such can be sealed.  He has to get them from the prosecution eventually, but Corey is buying time by trying to keep them from the public.  It's both a stall tactic and a genuine feeling by her that the public should have tp wait until trial to see what the state has against GZ.  

                          •  actually, i think the public - us - (0+ / 0-)

                            shouldn't be able to see any of it and be able to do what we're doing on this thread.  i think it is potentially very damaging.

                            but since i'm into it ;) let me add that there is another thing corey will accomplish: possibly undermining zimmerman's relationship with his attorney.  if there are three versions of the story told to police, then a fourth told to o'mara ... well, you do the math.

                            though i don't believe corey is doing anything unusual here.

                            Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, first make sure that you are not, in fact, just surrounding yourself with a-holes - William Gibson. (-9.75 / -9.05)

                            by doesnotworkorplaywellwithothers on Sat May 26, 2012 at 05:47:43 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  This is just the usual lawyer games (0+ / 0-)

                            Corey knows whether or not she has a good chance at a conviction.  She already knows.  O'Mara doesn't, and has to assume the worst until he does know.  He's not really made any statements that claim he knows his client will be vindicated, and nor should he until he has all the evidence to go over.  He's pushing for 30 more days to review what he has just now.

                          •  GZ and O'Mara have their issues w one another (0+ / 0-)

                            Someone leaked the doctor's medical report to the press (ABC) right before the document dump.  It would seem like only the doctor, the Zimmerman family, and the defense team had these documents at the moment, AFAIK.

                            O'Mara had to go out in public and say he was not the leaker, which didn't make him look good.  He also had to try to explain the Pay Pal issue, which made both him AND the judge look like fools at the expense of the Zimmerman family.  

                            O'Mara is going to have to defend whatever it is that GZ told investigators, and he doesn't even yet know if it is one good account or five separate stories that are not credible.  I don't envy his position at present.  

                            I think GZ has a good self defense story, and the prosecution has no star witness to refute it.  But I also think GZ is pushing a false narrative that the evidence won't back up in the end.  

                        •  and this post from the same author of the timeline (0+ / 0-)

                          is absolutely spot on, a real wingding of an statutory analysis. fo course it utterly supports my thinking, so naturally ....

                          http://viewfromll2.com/...

                          the author recently got married, so has not been posting, so she hasn't gotten around to the recently released evidence.  

                          so bookmark her, she's worth reading.  more so than anything i've read at dkos.

                          Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, first make sure that you are not, in fact, just surrounding yourself with a-holes - William Gibson. (-9.75 / -9.05)

                          by doesnotworkorplaywellwithothers on Wed May 23, 2012 at 04:18:04 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                  •  GZ may never take the stand. (0+ / 0-)

                    I've said this many times elsewhere.  

                    •  i'd love to see how o'mara will (0+ / 0-)

                      avoid that.  if they want to assert self-defense, he'll have to testify.

                      i really don't think the judge is going to give him a pass on syg, and o'mara has said he may not even pursue a syg hearing.

                      Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, first make sure that you are not, in fact, just surrounding yourself with a-holes - William Gibson. (-9.75 / -9.05)

                      by doesnotworkorplaywellwithothers on Thu May 24, 2012 at 02:19:16 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

  •  photos of a patio with a bench on it?? (0+ / 0-)

    This is just a fishing expedition by me, but why are there daytime police photos of 2861 Retreat View circle's patio, the one with the bench on it?  There's one shot of the porch and another taken as though someone was looking from it.  

    The obvious idea would be that there was a witness here, but it's the bench that catches my eye.  Maybe GZ told investigators that TM was coming from "behind and to his left" from this bench?  

    If GZ was at the T, and facing west it fits, more or less.  The photos struck me because they weren't so generalized, they seemed to be taken for a purpose.  

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