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I could have entitled this Diary "Grow the fuck up!", but that would have been extraordinarily hypocritical of me, because I had to grow up too, and that growth, still incomplete, was painful for me and for the people I abused along the way.

Let's go below the polite squiggle and chat.

With rare, really, very rare, exceptions I try very hard to ensure that my Diaries and comments here are a study in courtesy. That is not to say that I do not have strong feelings, and emotional reactions to things I read, because I do.

The temptation to fire back some blazingly rude rejoinder can be a hard feeling to resist. Frankly, there are those who would try the patience of a Saint, and Saint Twigg is not on the near horizon

In the past, in other Forums in a different life, or at least a different part of my life, I didn't resist temptation very well. When I found this place I determined that I would never again tread that path. It's unhelpful, destructive and worse, it would reduce my ability to persuade or discuss things that really matter. Want to be shunted to the sidelines, the murky margins of a conversation? It's easy, all you have to do is get a reputation for intemperate speech .... even if it is Free :)

I was also scared stiff by many of the regular contributors here, so I watched, I learned and slowly I joined in.

Some have yet to learn that lesson, and they are dragging the tone of the debate down to a level that makes it, at times, futile to continue. Those people, the ones who cannot keep a civil tongue in their keyboards are damaging the message, making the task harder to accomplish, and generally being "dicks".

It helps me to remember, even under the most intense provocation, one simple guiding idea ....

The people contributing to this Blog, to it's Diary Lists and Comment Threads, are not the enemy.

However tempting it might be at times, to consider some comments as asinine, disingenuous or simply downright gross; the folk making them will vote Democrat, and help elect Better Democrats. Trolls are exempted from the above remarks, but Trolls do not participate in Flame Wars. Trolls are very easily spotted, especially if we are not fighting among ourselves. Trolls are, actually, a uniting force because all sides of an argument can recognise a common enemy.

There are steps that each of us can take that would not simply reduce the internecine wars, but actually help us better understand each other and thus gain a clearer picture of the task.

Before responding to that comment that just pissed you off, wonder what the commenter was trying to say. Could it be that it was simply poorly worded? If it was, indeed, a terrible comment, then it is not your sole responsibility to right the wrong. By all means give a response, but protracted and heated debate simply means that you both lose. Remember ... you are not the only ones reading this stuff. If you made your point clearly and with decency, then you get all the credit from those following on. If, on the other hand, you played tit-for-tat until the right margin hit the Carolinas, then no one agrees with either of you ... You just became part of the problem.

Debate requires not just that we make our points, it demands that we listen to the replies. There will be times you are right, and other times when someone else will have a better point than yours. This does not work with Mrs Twigg, She always has the better points, and we remain very happily married.

So listen, think, type, and try to remember that the "preview" button is not simply there as a completely unnecessary extra click, serving only to stand between you and that fabulously witty and devastating slap-down you have conjoured up. It is there to give you a chance to make sure that you really, really want to post that comment. Some would benefit from taking the opportunity kindly provided to help us avoid stepping in the shit ... again.

Just be nice. You are among friends who really do want to hear what you have to say, but do not want to hear how superior you are, nor how stupid is the person you are replying to. We have enough enemies out there without inventing new ones.

Hide Rates are not a "weapon of choice". There is so much bullshit Hide Rating going on that I am surprised Markos hasn't been "more capricious" than he said he would be. Honestly, some Users would not last very long were site Moderation ever to become really effective. You do not get to HR folk you are arguing with, or simply disagree with. It is not your place to be behaving like that, and when you do it two things happen. You piss-off the person you disagreed with, and you reduce your influence with everyone who reads the thread and understands what is happening.

By the way .... next time you refer to "someone and their "posse"", then I will HR you. You are not going to divide this site into factions. Get over it.

There is an Election Season upon us that is going to be like no other. The nastiness, the vileness, the downright racism will reach levels we have rarely seen. It needs a response that is clear and united.

Guys, we are on the same side. We have a President we need to re-elect, and we have down-ticket races that are vital to the futures of real people, their children and their communities.

Is your flame war more important than that? Thought not!

2:55 AM PT: It would appear that I failed to be clear, and now stand accused of making the kind of threats that the Diary is supposed to be complaining about.

Let me clarify, so that no one mis-understands ...

Accusing another User of being part of a "posse" is divisive and bereft of any merit. It is HR'able, in most contexts and I am not complaining about Hide Rates, merely those HRs that are dished out without merit, and in furtherance of a grievance.

I lose count of the times I see comments uprated to counter inappropriate HRs, and in all too many cases those uprates are justified.

So if you want to take me to task for giving an example of one particular piece of behaviour that most distresses me, then have at it. But it really isn't the point.

Originally posted to Every Part of You Belongs to You on Tue May 29, 2012 at 01:47 AM PDT.

Also republished by Courtesy Kos.

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Comment Preferences

    •  It's 6.30 am (4+ / 0-)

      here so I shall try to get some sleep now.

      Talk among yourselves, politely please :)

      I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
      but I fear we will remain Democrats.

      by twigg on Tue May 29, 2012 at 04:27:59 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Twigg (8+ / 0-)

      Im still on the steep upward climb of the learning curve.  I agree with just about everything you say.  I'm ashamed to admit that I only just realized that the preview step is useful in just the way you mention and I've been canceling much more frequently.  It is seldom because I'm being nasty, but sometimes that is why I cancel. I get defensive for people who have been called stoopid or idiotic and snap back against those doing so.  I've found it works better to reframe such comments back to content rather than personal attack.

      Being a very new TU, I don't HR unless someone or several someone's that I respect (MB, HBIII, etc) cry troll and people start agreeing and follow suit.  Actually, I've only HR'd one comment or tip jar so far.

      Lately I have been appalled at the number of people being ostracized for perceived "faking who they are or their story) and this by groups (real groups, not possies (? Spelling).  It's a terrible way to treat each other, in my opinion. Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this matter.

      Cats are better than therapy, and I'm a therapist.

      by Smoh on Tue May 29, 2012 at 06:25:52 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Just forget about the HR. (8+ / 0-)

        The whole TU trip is not about running out of donuts on a daily basis.

        Most HR's are inappropriate: MOST of them. The bulk. 75%+ all useless if not counter-productive.

        Rise above while you still can.

        #occupywallstreet: Although I know the rhythm you'd prefer me dancing to, I'll turn my revolt into style.

        by xxdr zombiexx on Tue May 29, 2012 at 07:59:41 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Excellent advice. (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          PhilJD, twigg, Joy of Fishes

          I figure it this way, if I give an HR, I better be willing to write a clear concise sentence or several explaining why I gave it, to explain to the recipient as much as to rest of the community.  

          I've only had one recipient call foul, but none of the community stepped in to defend him or uprate. They understood my postition, even if my HR stood alone. And to this day, I think my HR was correct.

          I rarely give out donuts. The donut is supposed to mean "this comment is so foul, it shouldn't see the light of day."   If someone (who is not a troll) makes that sort of comment, they really need to know why we're banishing that comment to the darkness of the hiddens. Maybe they already do. But the rest of the community (especially new users) should too.  If the comment doesn't get hidden, at least we're on record as saying that this community doesn't abide by such things.

          © grover


          So if you get hit by a bus tonight, would you be satisfied with how you spent today, your last day on earth? Live like tomorrow is never guaranteed, because it's not. -- Me.

          by grover on Tue May 29, 2012 at 11:02:57 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Plus ... the rule is clear (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            grover

            Drop a donut, leave a comment. It's not optional.

            Sometimes I think that the "leave a comment" bit is deliberately ignored. After all, if you just abused the HR system, and you leave a comment, then you are available to have your abuse noted, and Hidden.

            Hide Rating is not something done lightly, and "forgetting" to leave a comment is not done accidentally.

            I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
            but I fear we will remain Democrats.

            by twigg on Tue May 29, 2012 at 11:47:38 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Well, (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              twigg, Joy of Fishes

              let be honest:

              "I just didn't like what you said"
              or
              "I don't like you very much"
               or
              "I'm in a pissy mood, so there!"

              don't make very good copy.

              And as you suggest, folks know that.

              © grover


              So if you get hit by a bus tonight, would you be satisfied with how you spent today, your last day on earth? Live like tomorrow is never guaranteed, because it's not. -- Me.

              by grover on Tue May 29, 2012 at 11:53:32 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  History is the other valuable tool. (8+ / 0-)

      Tempted to HR a comment that seems offensive without being blatant?  Take a second to click on the commenters name and have a quick look at their history - diaries and comments.  Maybe it's full of RW vileness or Paulbot stupidity, but maybe it's pretty compatible with site norms.  If the latter is true, perhaps a better response to the comment is to say "Did you really mean to say ?"  or "Did you realize that is considered derogatory?".  That gives them a chance to clarify if it was just awkward phrasing, and you might educate them if they're saying something that they didn't realize was a problem.  And if they double down on the offense, you can HR with a clean conscience.

      •  I agree with you andDr Zombie above (4+ / 0-)

        However, the kind of HR'ing that I am referring to is kinda on a different level.

        The tit-for-tat and uprating is sometimes being done by folk who know full well what they are doing.

        Good general advice though.

        I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
        but I fear we will remain Democrats.

        by twigg on Tue May 29, 2012 at 08:13:00 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I like the general thrust of this. (21+ / 0-)

    But I have an issue here:

    By the way .... next time you refer to "someone and their "posse"", then I will HR you. You are not going to divide this site into factions. Get over it.
    Dude, if the site wasn't already factionalized to some degree, those references wouldn't be made. Threatening to HR people over it runs counter to the goals you seem to be advancing with this diary.  You're trying to put out a fire with gasoline in that respect.

    "That the people have a right to bear arms for the defence of themselves and the State ..."- Vermont Constitution Chapter 1, Article 16

    by kestrel9000 on Tue May 29, 2012 at 01:53:53 AM PDT

    •  Not really (7+ / 0-)

      Referring to "posses" in that manner is HR'able on it's merits.

      There is only one "posse" around here, and that is those trying to elect Better Democrats, and more of them.

      Any other clannish behaviour runs directly counter to that ambition.

      By the way ... I use very few of my available donuts, and I don't anticipate that will change.

      I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
      but I fear we will remain Democrats.

      by twigg on Tue May 29, 2012 at 01:57:06 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Well, I suppose (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        twigg, MKSinSA, CherryTheTart

        you could zap that reference on grounds of propriety, but it a) won't change the fact that coalitions, which are not leaderless, exist and in fact in at least one case that comes to mind do amount to something of a cult of personality and b) invites a huge meat conflict over whether or not a particular appellation is HRable per FAQ which would almost certainly result in an administrative ruling if it got heavy enough.
        My gut, however, says such a ruling would probably indicate that that term is good for a donut.

        "That the people have a right to bear arms for the defence of themselves and the State ..."- Vermont Constitution Chapter 1, Article 16

        by kestrel9000 on Tue May 29, 2012 at 02:15:33 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I think that "our side" (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          kestrel9000, mapamp, a2nite, Mary Mike

          of the aisle ... all of us, with few exceptions, are the grown-ups in the realm of political ideas and discussion.

          My frustration is that the fighting dilutes that, and sets good people against good people.

          I don't expect my Diary to change anything, but I do feel the responsibility to speak to what I believe. Some will applaud that, others won't.

          Whatever, the election will still come in November, and it will be fraught until then, and I just hope folk will stop and think before they alienate each other.

          I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
          but I fear we will remain Democrats.

          by twigg on Tue May 29, 2012 at 02:20:14 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I remain unconvinced, in a friendly way... (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            twigg, kestrel9000, MKSinSA

            Echoing kestrel's issues, especially the part about seeming counter to the goals you're promoting. And adding that it seems a bit unilateral.

            Out of curiosity, I did a quick search on the word "posse" here on dKos. Since 1 May 2012, it's appeared in title or text of 22 diaries - and it looks like many or most of those diaries were written by front-pagers or 5-on-5 trusted users. Since 1 May, the word "posse" has appeared in only 13 comments.

            Meant friendly. Cheers.

        •  did you mean 'meat' conflict or 'meta' conflict? (0+ / 0-)

          Ham shanks at 30 paces?

    •  Heh ... I'll just add (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      kestrel9000, luckydog, spacejam, Smoh, Sylv

      I do see what you are driving at.

      I am just hoping that folk will see my, rather minor exhortation, as a wake up call.

      Believe me, they will prefer that to Markos wielding a big stick

      I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
      but I fear we will remain Democrats.

      by twigg on Tue May 29, 2012 at 02:01:22 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  A valiant effort but I am not (9+ / 0-)

    sure it will do any good. What did Mrs.Twigg think?

    "George RR Martin is not your bitch" ~~ Neil Gaiman

    by tardis10 on Tue May 29, 2012 at 02:02:14 AM PDT

  •  This is pretty good (7+ / 0-)

    ...but one of these sentences does not go with the other:

    Hide Rates are not a "weapon of choice".
    By the way .... next time you refer to "someone and their "posse"", then I will HR you.
    Still, I know what you mean.


    According to the Tea Party, there are three kinds of Conservatives: "Those who can do math and those who can't."

    by Pluto on Tue May 29, 2012 at 02:29:24 AM PDT

    •  I guess that I am going to get (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      kestrel9000, Cali Scribe, sewaneepat

      push-back against that.

      But you know what I mean :)

      Hide Rating comments that should be hidden is something we should do. It is not a weapon, it is Community Moderation.

      Moderating comments that simply seek to malign and marginalise other Users is not HR abuse ...

      It's the abuse I disdain, and I will always support the appropriate use of HRs.

      Claiming that someone is part of a "posse", simply because they support Obama, or do not support Obama is the kind of thing I abhor.

      I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
      but I fear we will remain Democrats.

      by twigg on Tue May 29, 2012 at 02:37:04 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Thanks for trying (9+ / 0-)

    I think most of us skip the long threads of infantile back and forths anyway. I always think they are there to hide the really meaty responses further down.

    If peace is to prevail we all have to become foes of violence.

    by spacejam on Tue May 29, 2012 at 02:56:19 AM PDT

    •  I miss most of them too (3+ / 0-)

      But when I do catch them, I see people getting all bent out of shape over not very much.

      Good contributors have left for less which never helps.

      Really, I am not a good person to be involved in such nonsense, I am far too aware of my ability to go from mild and gentle, to ballistic, in about a nano-second.

      So if I can tame the beast, there is hope for us all :)

      I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
      but I fear we will remain Democrats.

      by twigg on Tue May 29, 2012 at 03:01:29 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  In order for this (5+ / 0-)
    The people contributing to this Blog, to it's Diary Lists and Comment Threads, are not the enemy.
    to be valid, there must be some appreciation for the concept of a "loyal opposition", human nature being what it is. I find such an appreciation sorely lacking, though not nonexistent.
    •  I agree .... (8+ / 0-)

      When the President does, or says something that is unhelpful, it is the duty of us all to question it.

      Equally, unconditional support of Israel helps no one. We don't support anything unconditionally, so why should Israel be different.

      Debating these issues, disagreeing and tossing ideas around, supporting a favourite in a Primary, arguing about the 2nd Amendment .... all of these things are subjects that should be discussed.

      If that is what we did (and many do just that), then we wouldn't have the divisions, we would simply have healthy debate.

      No one has a divine right to be correct all the time. Not President Obama, not me, not anyone; but sometimes things happen incrementally, sometimes they don't happen at all.

      Getting mad at each other doesn't bring a favourite candidate, or policy any closer to success.

      Arguing constructively does.

      I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
      but I fear we will remain Democrats.

      by twigg on Tue May 29, 2012 at 03:25:11 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  There is a difference between "loyal opposition" (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Dave in Northridge, valion, twigg

      and those who literally oppose even the most popular of Democrats and politicians (who are still politicians) who you would have a really hard time finding anyone on the right or in the center labeling them a "liberal." Case in point, Elizabeth Warren. There is at least one notorious kossack who disparages Elizabeth and thinks she's just another "neoliberal"; that person cannot be my ally. There can be enemies to the left as well....there are several avowed anarchists on this site that have grown in stature and notoriety as the Occupy and now NATO protests have been occurring, and they advocate (at best) a complete overthrow of the country and constitution and, at worst, violence.

      When I say "enemy" I mean political enemy, not an actual physical enemy.

  •  Very nice, well meant effort Twigg. (14+ / 0-)

    Not quite so sure as you that trolls don't engage in flame wars though.

    Some trolls are smarter than other trolls.

    For example, I lurk on a Palin site (I've had more laughs than you can even imagine). A couple of months ago they had a new user, s/he spent a few weeks saying all the right things but I could see straight through him/her, this poster sucked up to and made some massive fans.

    Then slowly but surely he/her caused first doubt about other long time posters, then ill feeling and finally the biggest on line row I've ever seen. The site was devastated and many long time posters left.

    It was both hilarious and a joy to behold. Granted Kossacks are much, much smarter than Palin fans (obvious), but just sayin'.

    "Rage against the machine, vote for Newt, annoy a liberal." Sarah Palin on Fox News 1.28.12. - HaHaHAHaHaHa! me for the next 10 minutes.

    by AnnetteK on Tue May 29, 2012 at 03:28:19 AM PDT

  •  Those who lament the meta produce the most of it. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    roseeriter

    Being a part of a posse is worse than pointing it out so just stop.  

    "bin Laden's dead, and GM is alive" ~ Biden

    by dkmich on Tue May 29, 2012 at 03:28:46 AM PDT

    •  There are different flavours (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      jlms qkw

      of Meta which, in the end, is mostly discussion about how communities work or don't work.

      Healthy discussions help communities move forward.

      Politics is "meta", when applied to societies.

      I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
      but I fear we will remain Democrats.

      by twigg on Tue May 29, 2012 at 03:34:20 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  i picked up a donut (10+ / 0-)

    for warning someone not to make threats of violence, nor intimations thereof.  

    gawg, this place drives me batty.  

  •  I often write nasty comments (10+ / 0-)

    but then delete them before pressing that "post" button. I get it out of my system, so to speak.
    Whenever I read any diary, I like to read all of the comments, and if I see one of "those" threads (where the right margin reaches to the Carolinas), I usually leave to go read something else.
    It's a shame when diarists get their comment section hijacked, because a good diary often generates some good discussion, but who wants to wade through the bullshit to find it? I wish diarists would step in and try to stop it, but who doesn't like to see their diary get a lot of comments (even though few of them address the diary itself)?
    I did want to take exception to this:

    There is so much bullshit Hide Rating going on that I am surprised Markos hasn't been "more capricious" than he said he would be.
    If one looks at the Hiddens list, they'll find very few "bullshit" HRs, at least in the last couple of weeks. Now when we get a meta thread going, people tend to lose focus and throw out nasty comments that get HR's, but those are a small fraction of the sum total of the hidden comments.
    Save your HR's for trolls and not long time members of the community.

    “We are not a nation that says ‘don’t ask, don’t tell.’ We are a nation that says ‘out of many, we are one.’” -Barack Obama

    by skohayes on Tue May 29, 2012 at 03:59:59 AM PDT

    •  You can collapse those threads (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      kestrel9000, mapamp, skohayes

      using the + and - signs next to the parent comments.

      I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
      but I fear we will remain Democrats.

      by twigg on Tue May 29, 2012 at 04:06:39 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  The bogus HRs are far more frequent (8+ / 0-)

      than they appear.

      They tend to be balanced, or exceeded by the uprates, so they never actually appear in the Hiddens.

      Comments that make it to the Hiddens usually deserve to be there.

      I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
      but I fear we will remain Democrats.

      by twigg on Tue May 29, 2012 at 04:12:23 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  In general, I would agree that there often are (8+ / 0-)

      very few 'bogus' HR's making it into the hiddens.  But I'm seeing a few right now that are simply representatives of two groups fighting it out in a 'dead' diary.  Do the comments 'deserve' to be hidden?  Probably, under 'dickishness'.  

      But the reality is that the people slinging the HR's are being equally dickish by helping keep a flame war going that should have died days ago.   If I were kos, the folks still fighting in that thread would all get a few weeks of 'time out' to reflect on just how discourteous they're being to the diarist whose diary they're filling of with back and forth insults.  

      I know that the things I write here are archived, and if I've bothered to take the time to write something, on the off chance that somebody reads it again in future, I don't want them to then get distracted from the message by seeing a lot of back and forth playground fighting in the comments below.

      •  Yeah, that commenting in dead threads (3+ / 0-)

        is completely stupid, IMO. But some people cannot seem to let things drop without getting in the last word. I saw one diary a couple of weeks ago that had over 1000 comments in it, that had been published and slid off the recent list a few days prior, and most of the comments were a flame war between 4 or 5 commenters.

        It's resulted in banning and permanent NR's (ratings abilities removed), so if people continue that behavior, don't whine when the admin. moves in to clean it up.

        “We are not a nation that says ‘don’t ask, don’t tell.’ We are a nation that says ‘out of many, we are one.’” -Barack Obama

        by skohayes on Tue May 29, 2012 at 07:47:12 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I tend to agree. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Dr Erich Bloodaxe RN, skohayes

        The problem is that many of those people, however unwisely, are actually replying to stuff in their own comments page, not necessarily going back to a dead thread.

        But yeah, it looks bad when you read the thread itself.

        I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
        but I fear we will remain Democrats.

        by twigg on Tue May 29, 2012 at 08:21:23 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  If I'd posted every comment (6+ / 0-)

      I've written, I'd probably be pushing 50K comments instead of just a bit over 45K. Sometimes I start to make a comment and it's just not working out, or I realize I misread the original comment/diary, or I just can't seem to get the thoughts or words to work. Sort of an Emily Litella "Never mind..." moment. (I actually got nicknamed "Emily" by a favorite coworker because of my frequent "oops" moments in conversation.)

      Mitt Romney: the Etch-A-Sketch candidate in the era of YouTube

      by Cali Scribe on Tue May 29, 2012 at 05:56:27 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I made an interesting observation, at least (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Lorinda Pike, twigg, skohayes

      to me, that the right wall in political diaries almost always means trouble while the right wall in social diaries usually means a funny or interesting conversation (or sneck hunting).

      Cats are better than therapy, and I'm a therapist.

      by Smoh on Tue May 29, 2012 at 06:47:45 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Probably a lame thought… (8+ / 0-)

    but might not it make this discussion kind of fun but still meaningful if we listed words and phrases that have been used to define us, that particularly rub us the wrong way?

    Mine: "people like you"  – makes me see red no matter what comes next, as if I even pay attention after that.

    I'm voting for the UPPITY ONE

    by qua on Tue May 29, 2012 at 04:20:19 AM PDT

  •  Thanks (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Melanie in IA, twigg

    The radical Republican party is the party of oppression, fear, loathing and above all more money and power for the people who robbed us.

    by a2nite on Tue May 29, 2012 at 04:55:52 AM PDT

  •  you say that like it's a bad thing (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Dave in Northridge, twigg
    Honestly, some Users would not last very long were site Moderation ever to become really effective.
    if people don't want to get it, then the site/community doesn't need them.

    Die with your boots on. If you're gonna try, well stick around. Gonna cry? Just move along. The truth of all predictions is always in your hands. - Iron Maiden

    by Cedwyn on Tue May 29, 2012 at 05:47:23 AM PDT

  •  The threads suck (4+ / 0-)

    the diaries are the only thing worth reading.  A few threads are good, most are very bad.  

    On the whole, I only read stuff in the threads that is flush against the left margin.  Comments on comments are usually not worth much, and long chains of such are with few exceptions pure vanity (which explains the meanness).  

    The robb'd that smiles steals something from the thief. -- Shakespeare

    by not2plato on Tue May 29, 2012 at 05:48:35 AM PDT

  •  I think the value for my "Comments Posted" (6+ / 0-)

    would double if it took account of all of those I've written, then cancelled. Sometimes it's best to just walk away from a non-productive mess and allow the other fella/gal to have the last (unread) word.

    Real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time. (Terry Pratchett)

    by angry marmot on Tue May 29, 2012 at 05:58:29 AM PDT

  •   "Catch-22" had a good def of who an enemy is. (4+ / 0-)

    Yossarian saw two groups trying to kill him:  the Gernans, who were trying to shoot him down every time he flew a mission, and Colonel Cathcart, who keep raising the number of missions he had to fly.

    What uniform they were wearing, that Yossarian was supposedly on one side, made little difference to him practically.

    And that's the way I approach diaries and comments.   When I see a diary that is simply counterproductive bashing of democrats, for example, I don't distinguish "the side"....even though such dearis and comments usually get around to volunteering on not on the right one anyway.

    Romney is campaigning to be President SuperBain; his cure is to cut wages, end pensions, let companies go bankrupt, and let the assets of production go dark or be sold to China. He really thinks thats the best of all possible Americas.

    by Inland on Tue May 29, 2012 at 06:05:41 AM PDT

  •  all true enough, but it seems to be the case (10+ / 0-)

    that there are factions here ... and any attempts to bring the community together more closely would have to recognize that reality. Actually, cliques is probably a better word--since it captures more of that high school feel. :D

    In my view, I don't really mind all the different groups/cliques, but I am sad about the assholery and pettiness (however prettily dressed up) that often obtains among them. I wish everyone could just realize that we need all different kinds of approaches and viewpoints--not just as part of some "big tent"--but because politics is a kind of ecosystem, and each different kind of view and its accompanying strategy/tactics has its role to play.

    Identity is differentially composed--along axes of similarity and difference depending upon context--so in the big scheme of things we all share the view of wanting to improve life from a basically "progressive" or "liberal" P.O.V as opposed to a Republican one. Since we all share that (similiarity) then obviously in the day to day on this blog, our differences will emerge ... may they emerge with grace, good humor and respect ....

    There are moments when the body is as numinous as words, days that are the good flesh continuing. -- Robert Hass

    by srkp23 on Tue May 29, 2012 at 06:29:24 AM PDT

    •  Yep (6+ / 0-)

      Sometimes there really IS a posse.

      Many of us have recounted experiences in the past where we have been jeered by multiple people who seem to be high-fiving every time they think they've scored a jab.

      Case in Point:  I wrote a diary much like this one, that we are all to one extent or the other, left of center.  We're all on the same team.

      First there was some push back, and I made the mistake of using the phrase "true democrat".  It was a dumb phrase, I admit.  I was trying to clarify what didn't need clarification (that we are all on the same side - whatever point on the lefty spectrum we are on) and grabbed clumsy words.

      The pile on began.  Ohh ho, now she's saying only she knows what a "true democrat" is!  Yeah, that's how people like her think!  Jeering me for expecting a bit of goodwill instead of nasty comments and a deliberate "misread" of two words in a comment (not even in the diary).

      Started out with "biting my tongue" with a wink to people who apparently had some clue what the biting was preventing from being said.  

      blah blah blah blah

      So I write a diary about unity, about tolerance for the spectrum of views about the President's record, but I use the wrong turn of phrase in a comment, and am roundly jeered by SEVERAL people who seem to be having their own thread dedicated to jeering the diarist instead of offering anything substantive.

      Finally this comment from a fellow Kossack:  "Wow, 20 comments of pure bullshit.  You guys are like a pack.  Note the consistent uprates."

      Followed by more pile on, both agreeing and disagreeing.  My diary about being tolerant got a hide rate in the tip jar.  

      Posses are real.  

      Why is it that a 3% tax increase for the wealthy is considered "socialism" and an 8% wage cut for the middle class is "doing your part"? MartyM

      by delphine on Tue May 29, 2012 at 06:59:58 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I won't disagree that there are, uh, like-minded (0+ / 0-)

        groups.

        And there is nothing (at least, I don't think there is) that prevents us from turning around and walking out of a diary.

        I've been on the receiving end of behavior like this. As you said, many of us have. I've watched this behavior unfold. And I've learned the best thing to do is simply leave. So, they think they won. So what?  There are bullies at DKos. This is news?

        We're supposed to be the people that admire MLK Jr and Ghandi.  When they're all by themselves in every diary they inhabit, maybe they'll realize that there's something desperately wrong.  Maybe that's what we should be doing, is announcing that we're seeing pack behavior and we're leaving.Not engaging. Not fighting. Not naming names. Just disengaging and leaving. And other peace-loving members will follow suit every time. Maybe Courtesy Kos will consider implementing this as a strategy: just leaving. Not turning around and writing oppositional diaries (especially meta diaries) in response.

        It doesn't matter what the issue is. I recognize pack behavior even when it's an issue/topic I agree with.

        Unless they're doing it to the diarist (which is a violation of Markos' rules), because a diarist can't leave his own diary, we don't have to engage every time. DKos is a big world. There are lots of other rooms -- diaries -- we can walk into.

        And that seems to be what Twigg is saying. Instead of tossing accusations of posses --some of which might be cohorts who speak to each other outside of the diaries, but some may be perceived because they happen to be people who believe the same thing who are in the same diary at the same time -- deal with the individuals.

        Or, I suggest walking away if your feelings are being genuinely hurt. It's the internet. It's not worth it.

        © grover


        So if you get hit by a bus tonight, would you be satisfied with how you spent today, your last day on earth? Live like tomorrow is never guaranteed, because it's not. -- Me.

        by grover on Tue May 29, 2012 at 11:26:43 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  When it was my diary (0+ / 0-)

          I ended up leaving anyway.

          There was so much pie everywhere it wasn't worth staying.

          And it was definitely a high-fiving posse.  None of them were even attempting to speak to the diary or to the diarist.  They were speaking to one another, jeering the diarist.

          Posse.  Not individuals.  They didn't just "happen to believe" that I actually thought I had the lock on what a "true democrat" was.  And individuals are willing to say "oh, sorry, now you've clarified I get it", while posses continue the charade that they are "hurt" or whatever and the jabs keep coming.

          When you tell an individual that isn't what you meant, in a vast majority of cases (outside of I/P diaries) the individual will back down.

          When you tell a posse that isn't what you meant, you will get sarcastic stuff stuff like "oh, we're sorry we didn't try to figure out what you meant by what you said", or continued comments between the folks in the posse, like "oooh, that's not what she meant to say!  Riiiiight."

          I typoed "possies".  I'm thinking it's one letter off from what they really are, except that I don't like to denigrate pussies by associating them with jerks that make up posses.

          Why is it that a 3% tax increase for the wealthy is considered "socialism" and an 8% wage cut for the middle class is "doing your part"? MartyM

          by delphine on Tue May 29, 2012 at 10:54:49 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Seriously, just read the comment thread (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ljcrazyhistorian, Melanie in IA

    Because it confirms precisely what twigg said in the diary.

    For me, the biggest problem isn't the hide ratings or the "posse" stuff (although I'm linked with at least two of them, one political which gets comments on, one involving community which almost all of DKos is too polite to say anything about), it's that people sometimes forget that this is actually speech, and they say things in comments they wouldn't otherwise.

    Case in point.  I have no patience with diaries that treat the homeless as a one-size-fits-all subject, especially when the diarist is talking about how he "helped" the homeless person, because as humble as the diarist tries to be there's always something self-congratulatory about the diary (I've been homeless, and I've spent a couple of months living on the street, not by choice). For pointing that out in the current manifestation of that -- To the homeless man who waited for the "walk" signal at the light -- I was rewarded with this:

    If you spoke to me the way you spoke to argomd, I would be really hurt. I might not post anything again for a long time. I'm not made of stone. I bet the diarist isn't either.
    and this
    Do you mean I moralized the hell out of you for being an obnoxious moralist with somebody else and by doing so, I have hurt you as you may have hurt the diarist? Perhaps so.
    (with a disclaimer about "I want to understand you") and this:
    Reminds me of the RCC ass who thought upholding a person's dignity was more important than giving a person food. How kind of you to feel you need to make us "think in ways we might not have".
    (the first two were from a single Kossack, the third was from another one).

    I'm actually preparing a long diary on how we talk about homelessness here, which I probably need to be talked down from.  It wasn't universal, because the comment that provoked those three responses had 12 recs and not one HR.

    -7.75, -8.10; We are all Wisconsin

    by Dave in Northridge on Tue May 29, 2012 at 07:09:59 AM PDT

    •  To clarify, I meant exactly what I said, DinN. (0+ / 0-)

      And I would say it to your face.

      Although should I ever go to California, I might give money to a homeless person, depending on their name.

    •  You are really going to town on this, aren't you? (0+ / 0-)

      You're totally misrepresenting our exchange; my side of it anyway. I was really... trying... to understand where you were coming from, to dialogue with you. You don't give a darn about that, though, do you?

      Well look, I don't precisely know what you're trying to do, but I guess now I'd better keep an an eye on the situation. I came upon this post from you - just this moment! completely by chance - and I almost fell off my chair. I'm another of those you want to scold, another with whom you have no patience for the uncooth ways we talk about the homeless? We must all learn your way of being on the blog or risk being maliciously gossiped about like this? Set up as a bad example?

      You really feel deeply, profoundly wronged, by the events of yesterday? You have not reflected at all upon your own hurtfulness?

      I thought it was so very cool of you, in the end, the way you recommended my reply to you--the one in which I said we appear to be at an impass--and then you made no futher comment of your own. I thought that was awfully classy, that you did not come back swinging. But that wasn't what was going on at all. You had by no means concluded your disputations with me! You just took them elsewhere.

      I'm not very strong in my assertive voice. I scarcely ever speak up about anything. If you have decided you want to ... what? Inflate the heck out of the incident, make some sort of example of me, make me the postergirl for incivilty on the blog--well, I probably won't fight you. I'll just go away. I will go away: Looking at this comment of yours feels like defeat already. In my opinion you're behaving with a great deal of passive aggressiveness, but I'll be surprised if anyone will see it. No one's going to bother looking into what transpired between us. If you want to you can mow me right down with your manipulations; there will be no stopping you.

      God bless our tinfoil hearts

      by aitchdee on Tue May 29, 2012 at 12:13:47 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Please don't try to hijack someone (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Dave in Northridge, twigg

        else's diary.

        I don't have a dog in this fight, did not see the original exchanges. And no, I won't go look, either. It's neither here nor there to me. I don't really care who is wrong or right on THIS subject. And he did not name you; now you have called yourself out.

        Also please don't leave over this. If you have other comments to make about it, why don't you wait until Dave puts up a diary on the SAME subject, and deal with it there, instead of taking this up in twigg's diary?

        Thanks.

        Life is short. Tell someone you love that you love them. Don't miss the chances while you have them.

        by Melanie in IA on Tue May 29, 2012 at 12:37:09 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I just PM'd someone about this situation and this (0+ / 0-)
          I...did not see the original exchanges. And no, I won't go look, either. It's neither here nor there to me. I don't really care who is wrong or right on THIS subject. And he did not name you; now you have called yourself out.
          this could be an exact quote from it. I know nobody's going to care whose right or wrong or what really happened here. I know nobody's going to look into the original exchanges. That's my very point.

          With all respect to you Melanie I would very much like to hear your explanation as to why you believe my comment--in reply to a comment which quotes me, out-of-context and without proper ascription (as if that improves matters!) constitutes a hijack of this dairy. For that is maddness. This diary is about comment threads--why, just look at the title! And I am off topic? What, then, would you consider a properly on-topic comment for this diary? Do you really mean to say Dave in Northridge may unload his version of this story in twigg's diary--this argument we had that he and he alone has made into a "story"--and yet I am not to respond with my version of events? I'm to read it, note the way he's twisted my words and omitted important facts, and just be on my way?

          I am not to express moreover my shock that he has done this after I apologized to him yesterday--twice, no less--for my part in our altercation? Among other things he claimed I insulted his religion, Melanie. I don't take such accusations lightly. But I apologized for having done so, if only inadvertently, upon which Dave in Northridge said nothing more to me about it.  I thought he had accepted it; I thought it was a closed book, then. Then I run into this, today: imagine my surprise. Still, you would recommend I wait for Dave in Northridge to concoct a whole diary-length version of his notions about what transpired between us yesterday before I say um no, that is not quite it. Are you serious?

          God bless our tinfoil hearts

          by aitchdee on Tue May 29, 2012 at 01:52:06 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I understand your upset (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Dave in Northridge, twigg

            and do not mean to aggravate you further. I don't want to get into a fight here. Again, I didn't see what was written originally. Please don't misunderstand that I am supporting Dave in this. As I said, I don't have a dog in this fight. I just think this is not the right place to duke it out.

            As for me, I'll now excuse myself from the whole situation. I'm sorry to have stepped into the pile of it.

            Life is short. Tell someone you love that you love them. Don't miss the chances while you have them.

            by Melanie in IA on Tue May 29, 2012 at 01:56:57 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  If not here then where? (0+ / 0-)

              If this isn't the proper forum for this discussion, then what is? Is there any other likely diary today? I don't want to take it behind closed doors. That's why I called myself out," as you put it, because I have nothing to hide. Because I want to be a better kossack. Because I want to learn what goes into the making of a good kos peep: that's why I opened this diary. And because I feel safer, here, out in the open. What do I mean by safer?

              I just got a Private Message from Dave in Northridge. Apparently, he's offering me the chance to apologize to him again. And he's trying to sell me on the idea because, he says, he won't be making the offer to the other person with whom he haggled yesterday; no, that other one (I don't know to whom he refers) has burnt their bridge. But I - I might still redeem myself. But I will have to do most of the "work."

              Dave in Northridge says moreover I must be wrong and he must be right--because he is not in the habit of misreading things. And because he does not misread things, he doesn't know what I thought I was doing by posting my comments to this diary today.  

              No, sorry. If an admin tells me I shouldn't talk out in the open where everybody can see what the heck is going on, then that's another story. However, until then, I will not be having private discussions with Dave in Northridge.

              God bless our tinfoil hearts

              by aitchdee on Tue May 29, 2012 at 03:02:16 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Let me suggest something to you (0+ / 0-)

                simply in the spirit of helping the progress you want to make.

                Many people would view the disclosure of the contents of a KosMail in much the way they would a private email, and they would hammer you for it.

                I'm not going to do that simply because you do appear genuinely hurt and confused about this.

                If you do receive a KosMail that is unpleasant and/or threatening (and I do not imagine that is the case here), then the proper way to deal with it would be to completely ignore it and Block the Sender. If it were sufficiently upsetting you can always report the message to Admin.

                The two of you are butting heads over something really quite minor. I don't mind it happening in my Diary if folk gain some insight and some benefit from it.

                Here is something to accept about the internet, a place where you sometimes have to accept that you cannot fix things:

                Take what you need, give where you can, and ignore the rest

                I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
                but I fear we will remain Democrats.

                by twigg on Tue May 29, 2012 at 03:08:56 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I didn't want to go as far as contacting admin (0+ / 0-)

                  But if what I've reported here is considered inappropriate disclosure - if it is improper to breathe public word of one's honest reaction to a shocking PM, then of course, I have no other recourse, and will indeed reach out to somebody in administration.

                  You doubt the PM was threatening? Reread my bolded line. And your first recommendation would be to just ignore it? Really? That's interesting. That's the same thing Mellanie said to me: You're being inappropriate. You shouldn't have said anything. You should have zipped your lip and walked on by.  

                  Well anyway, thanks for the information. I will contact admin, but at this point--and after eight years here I've never, ever felt this way--I have serious doubts about it doing any good. In fact, it'll probably boomerang back on me and I will be censured in some way. The replies I've received from you guys have been singularly odd. I don't think I need to be here anymore.

                  God bless our tinfoil hearts

                  by aitchdee on Tue May 29, 2012 at 03:34:42 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  You are misunderstanding me (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Melanie in IA

                    You have been here a long time, and you have seen folk argue, fight, sometimes make up and sometimes leave.

                    This little argument is minor, really, it is even if it doesn't feel that way.

                    You may have a point about Dave bringing the comments to this Diary, but you are now getting annoyed at people who are trying to help.

                    Please ... do what ever you need to do, but in my experience these things are settled rather more quickly when folk just let go.

                    I don't want to see anyone censured, btw.

                    I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
                    but I fear we will remain Democrats.

                    by twigg on Tue May 29, 2012 at 03:49:10 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

          •  I don't understand what is (0+ / 0-)

            going on here, other than the fact that two people are upset about something that should have been left elsewhere.

            What always gets me when things like this crop up is that, more than anything, they demonstrate the limitations of this manner of communication.

            It is probably that aitchdee and Dave would have a civil conversation and reach an amicable settlement, were we face to face, but here that doesn't work so well.

            I didn't Tip Dave's comment in this Diary simply because I thought it a bit out of place. I make no comment about the views he expressed, just the wisdom of expressing them here. I do support the right of everyone to express a view, however.

            Seems like this is one of those cases where strongly held opinions get expressed, and maybe more strongly than anyone intended.

            aitcdee, I would simply let it go. There is no need for you to withdraw in any way that I can see, and surely the people who read the original exchanges would form a view that would be fair and balanced. That's not something I'm prepared to go and look at because I'd rather people put those things aside and look forward.

            I saw nothing in the snippets Dave posted here from, apparently, you and another User, that suggest to me that either of you were doing anything other than engaging in debate.

            I tend to be a bit more forgiving than some. For example, I don't think that Kossacks posting stories about how they may have been able to help as either self-aggrandizing, or disrespectful. They may be, but they are more likely to simply be telling us a feel-good story, and sharing. Anyway, I would almost always give them the benefit of the doubt.

            Oh well ... I'll quit before I ramble.

            I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
            but I fear we will remain Democrats.

            by twigg on Tue May 29, 2012 at 03:00:14 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  who *is* right or wrong (0+ / 0-)

            I hate grammar typos.

            God bless our tinfoil hearts

            by aitchdee on Tue May 29, 2012 at 09:18:54 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  Diaries like these are a futile endeavor... (4+ / 0-)

    and that reason is no fault of yours.

    The reason is that there's always going to be a certain contingent here who are mostly interested in the emotional and rhetorical manipulation of others. Some of them are skilled enough to use any diary or comment as an excuse to manipulate and disrupt.

    This is especially illustrated by your update:

    It would appear that I failed to be clear, and now stand accused of making the kind of threats that the Diary is supposed to be complaining about.
    Actually, in many cases you probably didn't fail in your clarity; you would have been accused of the same even if you had been clear as bright day. Because the very accusation is the thing that gives the manipulator power, and power is the only thing the manipulator is interested in.

    People who wish to psychologically manipulate will use any and all material put in front of them to do so. In real life the only way to deal with it is to remove yourself from interaction with that person. But this is a quasi-democratic, semi-public website, and interaction with all comers is part of the inherent nature. What we can do about the situation I do not know.

    You can call it "class warfare" -- we call it "common sense"

    by kenlac on Tue May 29, 2012 at 07:32:34 AM PDT

    •  I write like this (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Melanie in IA, glorificus, kenlac

      very sparingly because, as you say, the worst offenders are not listening.

      There is the slight hope that those feeling the way I do will take comfort that the issue is recognised. There is also the slight chance that one or two commenters will give it some thought when next they are tempted to HR or fire back.

      The other benefit is that people do come out and give sound advice in a Diary like this, when at other times they might just stay quiet.

      I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
      but I fear we will remain Democrats.

      by twigg on Tue May 29, 2012 at 08:33:37 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Not sure I agree. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Dave in Northridge, twigg

    I read "posse" as shorthand for "your special interest group is acting in an inappropriately organized manner".

    The only time I remember seeing it was when it was used (appropriately IMO) to refer to RKBA (of which I am a member) when they were riding out with guns blazing to aggressively target diaries advocating gun control. I think you know to what I refer.

    RKBA has cleaned up their act, and I haven't seen the recent uses of the word, but IMO, "posses" are a continuing problem here.

    GOP: Bankers, billionaires, suckers, and dupes.

    by gzodik on Tue May 29, 2012 at 07:43:41 AM PDT

  •  If people would just let go of the HR (6+ / 0-)

    except for when it really and truly is required, things would be a lot better around here.

    Here's a litmus test: If you have ever said "I am all out of donuts" you are likely part of the problem, NOT part of the solution.

    If you ever think of yourself as "troll hunting" you are pretty much part of the problem.

    A harsh rebuke is far better than the HR for MOST things HR are being used for.

    And many won't get it: they LIKE the HR, they feel they are somehow entitled to use the thing as their own personal taser, and that is not what it is for.

    The HR should be used quite sparingly.

    #occupywallstreet: Although I know the rhythm you'd prefer me dancing to, I'll turn my revolt into style.

    by xxdr zombiexx on Tue May 29, 2012 at 07:57:37 AM PDT

    •  I think so. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      xxdr zombiexx, twigg, Melanie in IA

      My favorite?

      When somebody slaps an ugly label on me, I'll usually turn it right around and start getting them to explain it, showing their work, and in the process assign a much uglier, and well supported label on them, by their own hand.

      This works much better than an HR does.  Other passers by see it, laugh, or at the least know.

      Me?  I've few worries.  I'm not a bad person, and my policy preference intent is solid progressive and I know what that really means, even if they don't.

      Ugly words are worth precisely what we think they are.  Raise the bar on that, and the HR suddenly isn't much of a tool.

      Never has been for me.

      And using it for disagreement?  Ugly!  Insta-loss!  Should have done the work to better support whatever it is.

      ***Be Excellent To One Another***
      IF THEY ARE GOING TO SCREW THE PEOPLE, MAKE THEM OWN IT.

      by potatohead on Tue May 29, 2012 at 08:05:24 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  There have been a few occasions (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Melanie in IA, glorificus

      when a large number of TUs ran out of donuts, for perfectly good reasons.

      What you said though, is generally true.

      I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
      but I fear we will remain Democrats.

      by twigg on Tue May 29, 2012 at 08:35:12 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I think I've given maybe 5-6 HR's the whole (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    xxdr zombiexx, twigg

    time I've been here.

    Long time.  Good fraction of that 10 years.

    The HR is for the really ugly and trolls.  If it stings a little, perhaps the other party has a point.

    Truth is, if your policy advocacy preferences are solid, you just won't be open to much critique, and where you do experience it, you will have the confidence to deal easily.

    Some clown calls you out.  What is that worth?  Squat.  Why?  Because they are a clown, that's why.

    Just think about the weight of the words.  Some garbage is worth what you think it is, that's all.  

    ***Be Excellent To One Another***
    IF THEY ARE GOING TO SCREW THE PEOPLE, MAKE THEM OWN IT.

    by potatohead on Tue May 29, 2012 at 08:00:59 AM PDT

  •  How come people don't use the message (3+ / 0-)

    system?

    Yeah, I know it's a bit clunky, but it works.  I just did, botching a comment.  Once in a while I get confused over who wrote what.

    It's not hard to message them.  Same goes for some really ugly thing.  Message them and ask them if they really meant the ugly before using the HR, or firing off something that's messy.

    ***Be Excellent To One Another***
    IF THEY ARE GOING TO SCREW THE PEOPLE, MAKE THEM OWN IT.

    by potatohead on Tue May 29, 2012 at 08:09:55 AM PDT

    •  They do use it (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      potatohead, cassandracarolina

      Well they message me but not generally about comment threads.

      There is a line there somewhere that I think folk won't cross lightly. It's one thing to argue in a thread, but quite another to start sending KosMails that could be badly interpreted.

      Anyone doing that pins a large target on their back if ever Admin are asked to get involved.

      I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
      but I fear we will remain Democrats.

      by twigg on Tue May 29, 2012 at 08:38:08 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Well, as it should, if the intent is nefarious. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        twigg

        For all other things, it's a great way to step out of the mess and get things sorted out.

        ***Be Excellent To One Another***
        IF THEY ARE GOING TO SCREW THE PEOPLE, MAKE THEM OWN IT.

        by potatohead on Tue May 29, 2012 at 08:47:16 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  This is not true of sufficiently competent trolls. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    twigg, TiaRachel

    "Trolls do not participate in Flame Wars. Trolls are very easily spotted, especially if we are not fighting among ourselves. Trolls are, actually, a uniting force because all sides of an argument can recognise a common enemy."

    There are people one could validly classify as trolls, that is whose objective is to agitate people and create conflict amongst participants in discussion, yet who post for their own amusement/objectives, not for an audience-- only the ones who make that they're joking clear, or who are simply bad at it, are easy to spot.

    There are no measures that will eliminate trolling, certainly not compulsory nicey-nicey. If anything, that makes their objectives easier to obtain.

  •  We need diaries like this one, thanks; (3+ / 0-)

    I was thinking about doing something like this myself.

    I get annoyed by people who leave a comment like "you are completely wrong," don't say anything else, and then don't comment any more. I also get annoyed by the 3 or 4 that "recommend" these comments but never say anything!

    I also get annoyed by people who don't know how to disagree appropriately.

    People just need to be nice!

    "It's kind of fun to do the impossible!"

    by ljcrazyhistorian on Tue May 29, 2012 at 09:22:04 AM PDT

  •  Hey Twigg, with regard to your title, (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Dave in Northridge, twigg

    if this is just "a few words," how many volumes will it require if you have a lot on your mind that you want to say?

    A whole Time-Life Series, and operators are standing by?

    :)

    © grover


    So if you get hit by a bus tonight, would you be satisfied with how you spent today, your last day on earth? Live like tomorrow is never guaranteed, because it's not. -- Me.

    by grover on Tue May 29, 2012 at 12:11:11 PM PDT

    •  lmao (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      grover

      Well my "Prison Diary" Series, which is, as yet, unfinished is currently running about 10 000 words.

      That is the second time today you have made me laugh out loud ... no, really :)

      I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
      but I fear we will remain Democrats.

      by twigg on Tue May 29, 2012 at 03:13:08 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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