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I grew up in Wisconsin, and I went to undergrad at Madison.  My parents grew up in Wisconsin, and went to undergrad at Madison.  My grandparents grew up in Wisconsin, and also went to Madison.

My grandparents are dead now.  But my parents still live in Wisconsin.  My brother and I have relocated to our respective coasts - NYC and LA.

My mother is a teacher, and has been a teacher and respected union organizer for 40 years - her entire career.  We grew up with excellent insurance and financial security.  Now, my father has many chronic diseases, and my mother provides the insurance benefits that they depend on.  Her union has a good relationship with the school board, but their contract is up soon, and no one can promise what will happen after that.  Eventually my father will be too disabled to work.  Premiums have already increased by 15% this past year.

So in speaking to my mother today, can any of you explain to me why my father voted for Walker?

My father will never, ever be able to get insurance on the open market.  He has diabetes, Parkinson's, has had prostate cancer, and has high blood pressure.  His retirement plan has gone spectacularly badly with only a few bad business decisions.  

Walker's assault on the unions have emboldened most districts to start cutting health benefits and other benefits, resulting in waves of retirements and pending retirements for those who can afford to.  Keep in mind that Wisconsin used to have some of the best districts and education in the entire country.  Now all that is being undone in a matter of a few years.

And then there's job loss.  My father likes to say that he believes in small business, because he used to own one.  I can't tell you how often I heard him bray about how small businesses are the "engine of the economy" and therefore vote Republican.  He still hates Obama.  He calls me a "tree-bark eating liberal."  He watches as Walker makes every attempt to gut Planned Parenthood, my employer.  Wisconsin is now dead last in job creation.  But he keeps mentioning "Obama's job crushing policies" and "overtaxing" job creators.

Let's not even talk about the university, which Walker hates.  You know, that university that three generations of my family have attended, which prepared us well for life?  

Three generations of my family have grown up in Wisconsin, given back to Wisconsin, and have appreciated the lessons for life we learned there.  And yet, my father is voting for Walker. Walker, who is actively engaged in destroying my parents' livelihood and retirement (and mine, and my fellow abortion rights advocates').  

I simply can't get my mind around WHY.  This goes beyond voting against one's own interest.  I don't even know what this is.

And the (almost) worst part?  At the YMCA where my father swims, his coffee klatch of old men say he's "too liberal" and they really need to convince him to become more "conservative."  He says this with pride.  One day I said to him, "what's further right?  Fascism?"

I really used to wonder how ordinary, good Germans watched the takeover from the sidelines, or didn't leave.  And now I know.  But I still don't understand.

Originally posted to Janusdog on Tue Jun 05, 2012 at 05:04 PM PDT.

Also republished by Badger State Progressive, ClassWarfare Newsletter: WallStreet VS Working Class Global Occupy movement, and Progressive Hippie.

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      •  My 80-year-old father is also an (68+ / 0-)

        intelligent man with a Master's Degree in Electrical Engineering. He was a test pilot before he retired.

        My father digests every thing he sees on Fox News hook, line and sinker.  It's beyond comprehension and you can't reason with him. He flies off into a rage when you try to point out anything that does not agree that belief system. It's not even worth trying any more.

        For me, Mitt reminds me of Jeff Bridges in Starman. He's like an alien that hasn't read the entire manual. You know, he's going, "Nice to be in a place where the trees are the right size." -- Robin Williams on Letterman 26 Apr 2012

        by hungrycoyote on Tue Jun 05, 2012 at 05:46:14 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Stories like this make me wonder (36+ / 0-)

          gosh, could this happen to me as I get older?

          Another example is my stepmother - she was a teacher and a serious Democrat for decades in the blue northeast, where strong unions ensured her a great salary and a very generous retirement package. She now lives in a red southern state that forbids collective bargaining by teacher unions (making them essentially so weak as to be nonexistent), and works part time training education students during their student teaching. She KNOWS how crappy the wages and benefits are, and why, but now she has gone full Republican. Is she not making the connection? Or does she think that other education professionals somehow don't deserve the opportunities she had? I can never get a straight answer.

          •  The denial (33+ / 0-)

            inherent in all these otherwise-intelligent people is astonishing. But that's exactly what it is. Denial. Add that to 30 years of propaganda spewing from every major news outlet in this country, and you've got a real mess.

            This house is dividing, and it will not stand if some of these people do not wake the fuck up pretty soon.

            I am disgusted beyond belief tonight at the apparent "victory" of another bought-by-the-one-percent election. I wish, with every fiber in my being, that we could find a way to shut down the propagandists who have spent a good generation or two now brainwashing my brothers and sisters to the point where they believe a bunch of bullshit that makes no coherent sense, often to the point of:

            you can't reason with (him). (He) flies off into a rage when you try to point out anything that does not agree with that belief system.
            I know more than a few people like this, too. It takes "La la la, I'm not listening..." to a whole new level, and it is taking on some weird dynamics lately. One is my brother. I don't know him anymore. I really, truly do not. It's some kind of sick, induced, rage-filled psychosis of denial.  

             

            It is time to #Occupy Media.

            by lunachickie on Tue Jun 05, 2012 at 08:09:13 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  We can. (7+ / 0-)
              I wish, with every fiber in my being, that we could find a way to shut down the propagandists who have spent a good generation or two now brainwashing my brothers and sisters to the point where they believe a bunch of bullshit that makes no coherent sense...
              ...and there is.

              But you can't shut down the propagandists.  It's like whack-a-mole, and they're really not that important anyway.

              The only possible solution I see is to either shut down the money that feeds them, or match it.  And frankly, I doubt that matching it is any more than a pipe-dream - because, for the kind of people who have that much money, there isn't much more in supporting progressive causes.  The 1% who support Republicans get immediate, measurable, and very real financial rewards for doing so; across almost every industry.

              We need to shut down the money.  Nothing will change until we do that one thing.

              And Citizens United will not be overturned.

              Interesting problem, isn't it?

              It ain't called paranoia - when they're really out to get you. 6 points.

              by Jaime Frontero on Tue Jun 05, 2012 at 09:07:24 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  What I would give for (8+ / 0-)

                public financing of elections. I hate to sound so cynical, but Citizens United may just prove the be the nail in our democracy's coffin. But for now money is speech, and those with the cash have a much bigger voice. And the other side is working very hard to crush any sort of actual regular-person organization like unions that could give us a collective voice. Because in their minds, there is no collective anymore - there's just the job of figuring out how they can take more from our individual pocketbooks by reducing our wages, cutting our jobs, killing our pensions, making us pay more out-of-pocket for medical care, etc. etc. etc.

              •  We have to try (10+ / 0-)
                either shut down the money that feeds them, or match it
                The 1% who support Republicans get immediate, measurable, and very real financial rewards for doing so; across almost every industry.
                Because they have bought our government. The propaganda IS important--it helps those who have essentially bought our sovereignty to have the shield of "Well? People support us, we must be doing SOMETHING right".

                That support is based on the propaganda. Enough people believe it because it's been fed to them in a steady, relentlessly-droning, mind-numbing fashion nonstop for over thirty years. The checks and balances of national communication were stripped by the Government they finished purchasing the day Citizens United was "decided". And six corporations control all the information, and they can essentially now lie with impunity, provided they can find enough believable marquee names to spew it on-air (and not enough people understand that for what it is, either. )

                In short, enough of America still believes that because it's on TV, it must be--has to be--true.

                You can't possibly believe the propaganda factor isn't that important. It is critical--that is the only way these bastards can divide and conquer over three hundred and fifty million people at the same time. They monopolized the airwaves and they use the language to manipulate the people who watch and listen, into believing a bunch of lies.

                 

                I really used to wonder how ordinary, good Germans watched the takeover from the sidelines, or didn't leave.  And now I know.
                So do I. And feeding the public mass doses of bullshit and lies and making them believable--amid a barrage of information overload (as someone else noted upthread) is necessary to garner divisions and keep the people busy bickering among themselves, while the real damage is done in the halls of Congress and state and municipal governments all over this country, right now.

                These people are dismantling our Constitution and because of all this propaganda, they're doing it with the full support of half the people in this country.

                You and I and everyone else has to believe in the idea that those of us with even two sticks' worth of critical thinking skills to rub together that  we have to try and think of a way to shut down the propaganda that's helping that happen.

                Besides, there's not enough money for us to amass--the greedy bastards have the lion's share of it already.

                It is time to #Occupy Media.

                by lunachickie on Tue Jun 05, 2012 at 09:52:04 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  not even so much lying anymore (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  lunachickie, Onomastic

                  just obscuring anything of any importance with an overabundance of incredibly stupid "infotainment" and celebrity worship. I've been forced to watch NBC and ABC during their morning shows for work, and for the hours upon hours of "early news", there are maybe 10 minutes of anything worthwhile, and the rest is fluffy, glittery bullshit.....so sad and I'm not sure if it is deliberate through some conspiracy, but the dumbing down of America has been spectacularly successful.....

                •  Fairness Doctrine (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  PsychoSavannah, lunachickie, marina

                  regulate them
                  worked before

                  http://en.wikipedia.org/...

                  It is the highest impertinence ... in kings and ministers, to pretend to watch over the economy of private people, ... They are themselves always, and without any exception, the greatest spendthrifts in the society. - Adam Smith

                  by treesrock on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 05:19:12 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Exactly (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    mkor7, marina

                    and every time someone mentions it, it gets slapped down as impossible because of "the changing nature of communications". And that's just bullshit. It doesn't matter what it's called or if what it used to be would work now. What matters is that there is no more Fairness Doctrine right now.

                    Regulation--it's what's for Democracy. You can't have one without the other, because there will always be human beings who are sociopathic greedheads--who would sell the rest of us out in a New York minute, were there no regulation.

                    One by one, regulations have gone away. And look at the train wreck that remains. FOX. Rush. Fucking liars, sophists and manipulators, the lot of them. Yet a lot of people think they're telling the truth when they are demonstrably lying.

                    Because of that, half the people in America have learned to hate their own government. Yes, that's right, I said learned.

                    How does that happen, again? Did you say "no regulation"???

                    you can't reason with (him). (He) flies off into a rage when you try to point out anything that does not agree with that belief system.
                    "But....but....they can't say it if it's not true! They wouldn't let it on the air"

                    They who? The six guys who own The Air?

                    Who or what do you control for the betterment of democracy as a whole? You start by regulating the ones who do not give a damn for humanity, that they would help help dismantle a democracy by using sophistry and manipulation of our own native language.

                    It is time to #Occupy Media.

                    by lunachickie on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 06:03:18 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I was hoping the Fairness Doctrine (0+ / 0-)

                      would be the first thing a new President Obama would enact, because without it every good thing that Democrats tried to do would be torn apart by lies and spin.

                      But the immediate backlash was "Free speech!" as if our democracy wasn't an outweighing factor, and as if the people aren't owed, aren't deserving of the whole truth.

                      Instead we are treated as fungible units, cheap labor and implements of war, programmed from birth to be not all we can be, but only what they plan for us to be.

                      The things that make life worth living, especially peace of mind, are not for us, but only for the privileged few.

            •  Americans are naive. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              OhioNatureMom

                A lot of Americans are naive. We trust our government and believe that they only have our best interests in mind. The Vietnam war was the exception. There were huge united protests against the war, because the draft affected almost everyone.
                  We believe we live in a true democracy, unlike the "other places" This makes us naive, complacent and easily manipulated. People in the "other places" are aware of the corruption and manipulation, are cynical but realistic. I'm afraid that it will take a huge crisis to make people finally pay attention.

              All that is necessary to have evil triumph is to have good men do nothing!

              by pipercity on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 06:38:27 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Can someone explain to me (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              OhioNatureMom, marina, Leap Year

              just what kind of "thuggery" Wisconsinites have suffered at the hands of teachers' unions?

              Why are so many Wisconsin voters convinced that schoolteachers are "thugs" but the Koch brothers are not?

          •  It may be a social thing, that she's (5+ / 0-)

            conforming with those around her. Some people would rather fit in than be right about things.

            "The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. Now do you begin to understand me?" ~Orwell, "1984"

            by Lily O Lady on Tue Jun 05, 2012 at 09:03:36 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  She is definitely surrounded by (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              OhioNatureMom

              golf-community retiree types, but the curious thing is that so many of them are ALSO transplants from more liberal climes. Overall it's way more homogenous though, only older white people behind those neighborhood gates.

              •  I'm old (60) and white, but could never see (6+ / 0-)

                myself agreeing with those people. I'd probably end up avoiding any long conversations.

                "The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. Now do you begin to understand me?" ~Orwell, "1984"

                by Lily O Lady on Tue Jun 05, 2012 at 10:03:01 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  You would probably (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  BitterEnvy

                  choose not to live where they do. ;-)

                  •  Actually I do live in a very (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    semiot, OhioNatureMom

                    red area. I was amazed, during the 2008 election to discover how many Democrats/progressives there were in the area. We all live in stealth mode usually, although we know the others are out there now.

                    As in the national dialogue, the Republicans dominate the discourse. Just yesterday I saw a letter to the editor of the big city paper complaining that Paul Krugman is "worse than a leftist." This is how they suppress other voices. It was a similar letter several years back that cause the paper to drop Molly Ivans' column a couple of years before she died.

                    And beyond Republicans, we have a healthy cohort of Tea Partiers who fly the Gadsden flag. Our Republican US Representative is being primaried from the right by a Tea Partier. Our state representative has introduced legislation that has been decried here on DKos.

                    I used to try to talk sense to these people. It does no good, because many TV screens in public as well as in private homes are tuned to Roger Ailes' very effective propaganda organ, FOX "news" or (just as bad) CNN. Their emotions have been engaged and their cerebral cortex held hostage by fear and hate.

                    They can't convince me to "go crazy" and I can't convince them to go sane. We ended up in this area because my husband was in the military and we owned a house here. I'd like to move to a blue state, but we're retired and property values suck thanks to the banksters.

                    "The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. Now do you begin to understand me?" ~Orwell, "1984"

                    by Lily O Lady on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 06:21:47 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  this is an argument that (0+ / 0-)

                      many made back in the 60's... this is not new.  Voting against your self interest has always been a problem with electoral politics. Rich people and their media can easily set the tone to get folks to vote against their interests. This is why some people perceive the end of democracy.  But that is only electoral politics. And democracy seems only to be defined here at DKOS as a voting for elected officials thing.  Where we need democracy first is the work place... economic democracy.  Voting is the big thing here and I understand that but you will never legislate democracy.  Those kind of rights will continue to be won in the streets.  The mistake in Wisconsin was to take all that frustration against Republicans into the voting booth and not into the workplace. By throwing your lot into the electoral frame, you buy into the Citizens United Crowd's thinking.  Money buys elections... we always knew that.

                      Pass new laws to end media monopolization now.

                      by john from vermont on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 07:39:34 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  I'm not sure what you mean, jfv. Taking their (0+ / 0-)

                        frustrations into the workplace after being stripped of their union rights would be very hard. And as they are public employees they are employees of the government, so I would think elections matter. Perhaps you suggest that working in public service is a bad idea?

                        Maybe you could provide and example of how teacher, police and firefighters can take their fight into the workplace.

                        "The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. Now do you begin to understand me?" ~Orwell, "1984"

                        by Lily O Lady on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 08:09:43 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

          •  I've gotta wonder... (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            BitterEnvy, OhioNatureMom

            How many of the people mentioned above, whether they're conscious of it or not, don't want to support 'team darkie'?  

            Tribal affiliations run deep...

            The last few years have been a huge awakening for me of my awareness of racism.  I never thought it was so bad.

            The Fail will continue until actual torches and pitchforks are set in motion. - Pangolin@kunstler.com

            by No one gets out alive on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 04:46:43 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Older folks get a pass... (6+ / 0-)

          I actually understand the older generations voting for walker and listening to fox news.  We need to encourage the younger folks that they gotta vote!  We are gonna have a bunch of older baby boomers running our government and making our policies which will be in place for decades!!! And the supreme court will have ALL baby boomers for the next 50 years!!!!!! Can you imagine all the justices living past Ginsberg's age?

          It's really frightening to think about the future. And once generation x and y mature - and hopefully they will- note I am an x-er although on the older end of the x spectrum - they will wake up to say WTF? Why am I piss poor and looking back on the good ole days when I could go on a cruise with mom and dad once a year?

          We all know older folks vote! And not all baby boomers are solid republicans.  So I think the only thing we can do is instil our generation that they must vote.....

          Now if you have sisters and brothers and children that voted for walker....forget everything I just wrote! Unless you are in politics, in the 1%, or looking to go into politics to get to be in the 1% ..... It's beyond belief!

          •  Old folks do not get a pass. They are the one's (42+ / 0-)

            who are dependent on Medicare, Social Security, and pensions.  If they are living on the proceeds of a 401K, they have an interest in seeing that the investment community is regulated and fair.  To give old people a pass is to say that when you get old, it is OK to be stupid.  It is not OK to be stupid.  At what age do you get to be a stupid old person?  65? 70? Older?  The safety net that progressives are concerned about affects old people as much as anyone else.  No, they do not get a pass.  

            And it feels like I'm livin'in the wasteland of the free ~ Iris DeMent, 1996

            by MrJersey on Tue Jun 05, 2012 at 07:48:45 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Agreed.... (9+ / 0-)

              Old people do NOT get a pass, they are as culpable as anyone of any adult age.  If you were smart once, unless there is a serious medical reason, there is no excuse for 'age-related' stupidity.
              If you were able to use critical thinking once, then it must be continued, it keeps the mind supple and stops the lazy slide to irrationality.
              No pass for old people on the stupid question.
              There is no excuse to be willfully stupid at any age.

              I think, therefore I am........................... Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose AKA Engine Nighthawk - don't even ask!

              by Lilyvt on Tue Jun 05, 2012 at 08:05:11 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  And demography is with the Republicans: (0+ / 0-)

                It's assumed the Republican Party is doomed demographically because of the emergence of a non-white majority.

                But I've read that, extrapolating from current aging and health trends, about 40% of the US population will be suffering from dementia by 2050. Demented voters are Republican voters.

                •  Well.... (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  OhioNatureMom

                  I'll be over 100 in 2050, and I may be thinking about other things than the 40% of voters with dementia.
                  Frankly, I'm concerned with the voters of today (who presumably don't have dementia) and still make the demented decision to vote completely against their own best interests when they vote for repubs.

                  I think, therefore I am........................... Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose AKA Engine Nighthawk - don't even ask!

                  by Lilyvt on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 07:04:56 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  okay maybe not a pass..:-) (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              kyril, marina

              I don't know...some of them have lived a hard life. My grandparents grew up during Jim crow...some union workers in factories and coal mines were killed, terrorized, and tortured for just wanting to bring home enough money for their families to eat....Guess I just feel like their generation paid their price and has a lot to be proud of....

              Now it's the next generations turn....first the greatest generation in WWII, then progressive reforms: civil rights, voting rights, weekends, social security, Medicare....what is it that the next generation will leave as their legacy?  Facebook?

            •  Yup. Agreed. (9+ / 0-)

              I AM a Boomer.  First year Baby Boomer, in fact.  I turned 66 earlier this year (born nine months after VE Day).

              I do NOT give my fellow Boomers a pass for stupidity.  We were seniors in high school when JFK was shot in Nov. '63, and when The Beatles appeared on Ed Sullivan in Feb '64.  My generation lost people in Vietnam and protested the war when our relatives and friends were drafted and sent off to get killed for no fathomable reason (which is why some of us just damn near came unhinged when Dumbya and Dickie started two illegal and unconstitutional wars; Deja vu all over again, and it set up a mental state of PTSD before soldiers even came home with PTSD or in coffins this time).

              Unless they are medically and psychologically genuinely tested and afflicted with early-onset Alzheimer's, no passes for people my age who keep voting these cretins into office only to have these "elected" morons destroy the infrastructure of our country..., or worse, try or get their greedy and f##king sticky fingers on our Social Security monies.

              Nuh-uh.  No.

              I'm sick of attempts to steer this nation from principles evolved in The Age of Reason to hallucinations derived from illiterate herdsmen. ~ Crashing Vor

              by NonnyO on Tue Jun 05, 2012 at 09:27:16 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Especially since (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              OhioNatureMom, marina, cosette

              I've been assured, with no shortage of smug self-aggrandizement, from a very young age that "with age comes wisdom."

              And yet I've heard ridiculous things all my life from my supposedly wiser elders that made me wonder, "How old will I have to be before that makes any damn sense?"

              My other car is a pair of boots.

              by FutureNow on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 06:11:24 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  I used to think this was exclusive to Repubs... (3+ / 0-)

          until I started seeing people around here bend over backwards to glorify President Drone Murder.

          •  Ditto! (0+ / 0-)

            OBAMA'S GUIDING PRINCIPLES: HOLD NO ONE ACCOUNTABLE. LOOK FORWARD.

            by snoopydawg on Tue Jun 05, 2012 at 09:48:08 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  You mean... (4+ / 0-)

            The guy who has managed to successfully target most of Al-Qaeda's senior staff without putting our troops in harm's way?  All while getting out troops out of Iraq responsibly and working (hoping, I feel some days) toward a self-sustaining Afghanistan?

            In general, I'm a pacifist.  I have a hard time killing the insects and mice that have gotten in to my house.  And I don't like the civilian deaths that we've been causing with our drone attacks.  But the sad truth is, war is ugly.  Always has been, always will be until we all agree to send robots after each other to die in a lonely uninhabited desert somewhere (which will happen for precisely as long as it takes for someone to realize what Al-Qaeda realized in the first place - targeting civilians has a much greater effect than wasting money on wars in the middle of nowhere...).  Kill Al-Qaeda's core, and you cut off its organizational abilities, which saves a lot of effort and a lot of lives later on... I don't like the drone attacks, but I like them better than the alternatives.

            If you want to find someone as irrational about something as Walker supporters, you might find them closer than your computer screen.

            (End long-suppressed rant)

            Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves. - William Pitt

            by Phoenix Rising on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 12:33:06 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Are you implying it could be different? (0+ / 0-)

            Are you suggesting that a Republican president would not use drones?

            Are you suggesting that a Progressive president could be elected?

            Are you suggesting that not supporting Obama will create a more progressive society?

        •  Happily, my 80 yo Dad is not like that. He still (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          OhioNatureMom

          starts from the conservative position, but with some talk he can be brought to reason.  I think he's a closet liberal and doesn't know it.  He was just raised in another time with a lot of conservative influences, so that is his inclination.  He isn't as politically minded as I am, or he would probably have realized by now he isn't "one of them".  (I mean, he buys his four kids a subscription to Audubon every year as a gift for pete's sake.)

          "Slavery is the legal fiction that a person is property. Corporate personhood is the legal fiction that property is a person." David Korten, When Corporations Rule the World

          by Delta Overdue on Tue Jun 05, 2012 at 08:42:55 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Sounds kind of like my 94 year old dad. (5+ / 0-)

          Very intelligent. Accomplished. Always watched Fox news day and night and bought into whatever they said. As a smart career officer and veteran, I was surprised that he was so easily brainwashed and not able to recognize their propaganda for what it was. Lately, as my mom's health has declined drastically, and he has seen how his bleeding heart liberal children have been doing everything that needs to be done for our parents while our more conservative sibs just don't have time to even make a phone call, I see that he no longer is watching Fox. I wonder what has prompted the change. If I were to ask, he would be contrary and start watching again, most likely. So, I'll just speculate. But (sorry this is so long), before this recent change, I sort of came to the conclusion that personal loss of former capabilities might be at the root of buying into the Fox-style agenda....a way of lashing out at a feeling of growing helplessness. I don't know. I've always tried to figure it out, because in his personal life, Dad has always acted liberally. What he says and what he actually does/did didn't match up. He might bitch about global warming being a hoax, but recycle with a vengeance, as an example. He would give a big donation to the local homeless shelter. He would never pull up a tree seedling or harm the smallest insect (they have a right to live). He might gripe in generalities about certain groups of people, but like them individually and be angry if that friend weren't treated well because of who they were. He would side with his working children and grandchildren against unfair practices in their workplaces, but parrot a rightwing viewpoint in a generalized argument. Very frustrating. But maybe he's finally seeing the light with Fox news.

      •  I suspect it really comes down to (47+ / 0-)

        the modern version of tribalism.

        As you say his social circle or coffee klatsch says he is too liberal. We constantly and consistently overlook this form of emotionalism generated by our social circles in worldview and decision making.

        He is comfortable. The people he is comfortable with apply intense peer pressure for him to fit into the tribe he is comfortable with. They are traditional. Traditional = Republican.

        Add in the American male penchant for stubbornness....even in the face of overwhelming evidence ( I am NOT lost!!!!) and you have the dynamic that makes so many Americans vote against any semblance of rational self-interest.

        Iow, "what the neighbors say" is far more important than facts or logic, when the rubber meets the road.

        Humans are by and large social animals, not rational beings. That IS changing through the generations, but is still a HUGE factor in why things are so fucked up.

        •  Social grouping + Intellectual & emotional fatigue (24+ / 0-)

          I've been discussing this recently with my mother, who tends to vote Republican, but who also reacts with incredulity when I give her a summary of what Republicans of interest have recently done.

          She works in education administration, and has been decrying the increasing carelessness of administrators as people retire/are newly hired, and the carelessness of some teachers and students.

          A few years ago, she was blaming technology and overreaching government welfare for the change. Then she became a tech manager and started talking to me more often as her social circle shifted.

          Her most common complaint has been that she doesn't have the resources to look into everything that I mention to her when we speak. I'll see her eyes glaze over when I talk about a subject that she's built up many barriers to questioning (e.g. criticizing contemporary right-wing Christian groups), but the rest of the time she's often asking me questions.

          That is, she's looking for answers and acceptance, and doesn't have the mental or temporal resources to get answers or deal with the complexity of unraveling her deeply-held beliefs.



          So it seems to me that as information avenues increase, the quality of information is worse, people feel like they're more overwhelmed, and fatigue comes more easily (due to bad health and/or overstimulation, for whatever reasons), people are more likely to spend time with people that they feel liked/welcomed by - creating echo chambers and groupthink, the ideas within which become part of the person's self-identity.

          Hence, everyone in general is at greater risk of becoming less reasonable. The groups that are most susceptible to this are those that already relied on social groups - Republicans, the highly religious, teenagers, and the social media generation. Of course, there are also people who are more narcissistic or sociopathic - who don't actually care about the social attitudes of people as much as they care about gaining attention/power.



          At least, that's my theory.

          Supporter of philosophical constitutionalism, republicanism, and democratism. -3.5, -4.87 All about the rule of law and moderate regulation + Civility first + Constructive comments + Remember the cooperative principle

          by LimitedGovernment on Tue Jun 05, 2012 at 06:31:51 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  new discovery show called head games. (8+ / 0-)

          First episode demonstrated how we are hard wired to conform.  To the point of actually seeing something that is not there if the group says it is. Even those who claim to be non-conformists are actually just conforming to a different group.  I think it probably explains a lot.

        •  Well said. Bravo. I have often quipped that the (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          kyril, OhioNatureMom

          GOP system is based on a sort of group think and if you stray from the herd then you are one of them - a faceless, nameless other devoid of American principles, unholy and barely human.  It's a caricature of everything worthy of hate and the violence that comes with it.  They call them liberals and democrats or any derivative of those words. Sigh.  This is our political reality where the rhetoric is believed and people vote accordingly.

      •  That's what I always feel like saying to my dad, (5+ / 0-)

        "You used to be an intelligent person.  What happened?"

      •  but if he watches Faux News (10+ / 0-)

        as your quotes from him suggest, then remember that he is getting stupider by the day.

        As for age, I don't know. I'm turning 60 this year and wouldn't think of saying "fark you, I've got mine." And, on top of that, it sounds like your father's "mine" is pretty seriously threatened. I think there is a lot of cognitive dissonance involved in this. It sounds to me as though these are the things that he has believed his whole life and now he has just become more dug in as everything has become more polarized.

        I'm sorry for you having to reconcile all of the difficult feelings this must raise for you.

        "The fools are as plentiful as ever." Albert Parsons, Haymarket martyr

        by kainah on Tue Jun 05, 2012 at 07:00:48 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Ur sig reminds me of the saying... (0+ / 0-)

          "God must love stupid people: He/She made so many of them."

          That saying is particularly apt tonight.

          -8.88, -9.59 In the practice of tolerance, one's enemy is the best teacher. -Tenzin Gyatso, H.H. the Dalai Lama

          by BobSoperJr on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 01:09:20 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Only some people do that (4+ / 0-)

        Others realize how much they have been helped and want others to be helped too.

        Women create the entire labor force.

        by splashy on Tue Jun 05, 2012 at 07:10:46 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  It's not biological or due to age. (18+ / 0-)

        At 72, I am convinced that getting old doesn't change a person's essential character, provided there is no dementia.  The things age changes are related more to physical deterioration; for instance, I am less likely to hike or adventure onto unfamiliar trails because I don't trust my knees, not because I have lost interest in nature or exercise.

        Although my parents were hopelessly to the right all their adult lives and hated Roosevelt, they were also only educated through eighth grade, lived in conservative Nebraska, and grew up very poor, with widowed mothers in the days before Social Security. If they were stingy when they were old and finally had enough to at least be comfortable, it was because they knew what poverty was like and were afraid. They were people who didn't think girls needed college, but at least in old age they had come around--mostly because of what public television said--to believing it was good that I was educated and had a career. So, very slightly, they became more open to ideas as they aged.

        My daughters have had a very different life and all three are well-educated, with careers that have given them better incomes than I ever had from teaching, but they focus on their own lives and ignore all causes, not even paying much attention to the news. They are good to the people in their lives and to themselves, but they see no need to know much about the world or try to improve it. And they have always been that way, maybe in negative reaction to my activism and involvement with groups trying to change things for the better. In any case, age doesn't enter into it.

        •  Thank you (4+ / 0-)

          My family, the younger ones, are the same.  They are good people but simply uninterested in politics and they don't seem to think it affects them.

          My parents were immigrants and poor but they were pro FDR and spoke about him reverently.  But they still were republicans because where we lived to have a county job you had to register republican.  My dad was a cop and usually was apolitical and my mother was fearful having grown up working in textile mills and she saw the power and fury that beat down union organizers.  She died young so she never got to see my actively involved in our teachers' union. She was not alive when I went on strike. I imagine it would have scared her.

          But my dad started turning to the right when Reagan was elected.  I am not sure why but I think my sister who was very much republican influenced him.  She lived near him whereas I was 1600 miles away.  

          I am so saddened that some here seem to think being right wing is a result of aging. I just disagree with that totally.

        •  mostly beacuse (11+ / 0-)
          mostly because of what public television said
          Yes!

          Media does matter!

          The complacency about right wing media domination is one of the many obstacles that prevent the US from ever becoming a decent civilized democracy.

          Propaganda works. Goebbels knew it, Stalin knew it, Murdoch knows it as well.  

          Draw your own conclusions.

          Mine is clear - Fox News needs to go - one way or the other. Maybe the US really needs a more dull TV, FCC mandated moderate balance NPR style on all channels.

          Yes, I know. Holy first cow and all.

          But US Government in the 50s understood this. They had seen Goebbels live. So they basically pulled regulation out of thin air. It can be done again.

      •  my family is the same way (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        kyril, BobSoperJr

        the way it was explained to me is that they do know they are voting against their own best interest but they believe that they are voting for a financially stable future for their children and grandchildren. They just never mention that all this really requires their children and grandchildren to make the same sacrifice their own.

        •  People intentionally voting vs. own interests (11+ / 0-)

          I heard an interesting perspective from a caller into Randi Rhodes' show last week--he was saying many conservative voters (particularly religious conservative voters) know they are voting against their own economic interests, but that doesn't phase them. They believe their reward will be in Heaven if only they vote for those God-fearing Republicans and against those gay-loving, fetus-killing Democrats. :-/

          Seen on Facebook: "Rich people are not the cause of a robust economy, they are the result of a robust economy."

          by boofdah on Tue Jun 05, 2012 at 07:35:39 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  it's not social in my family (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            kyril, boofdah, OhioNatureMom

            it's economic. they see conservative as being economically stable in the long term even if it is unkind to those who can't do for themselves.

          •  Whose "own interests"? (0+ / 0-)

            Please tell me what kind of an argument you are going to make to a low-wage non-union worker in the private sector who doesn't get a pension (i.e. most Wisconsin voters) why they should vote in the interest of public employees who are in a union and do get a pension.

            For the sake of argument, there may well be such an argument, but try making it to these people. They will not want to hear it. It's in their best interest to see that workers maintain collective bargaining when they themselves don't get it?

            This election was lost on this question. Progressives are going to have to figure out how to handle this kind of question in the future.

            (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
            Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

            by Sparhawk on Tue Jun 05, 2012 at 07:55:15 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  well, (7+ / 0-)

              hurting other people out of spite does not serve my interests, even if they're getting paid almost as much as I am.

              Oooh, look, a shiny thing -- a PENSION!  Even if his total compensation is about the same as mine, I should resent the fact that part of his compensation comes in the form of a PENSION!

              Ignore the shiny objects, look at the fact that the economy grows under Democrats and stagnates under conservatives. Liberal policies create the kind of economic growth that makes everyone better off.

              all morals are relative, but some are more relative than others.

              by happymisanthropy on Tue Jun 05, 2012 at 08:20:05 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  okay (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              semiot, OhioNatureMom, The Nose, marina

              because that teacher who has a good  job will help you in many ways

              1) educating your children
              2) paying taxes in your community
              3) owning and maintaining property
              4) shopping at local stores, hiring local contractors

              generally adding to the tax revenues and commercial activity of your community in too many ways to count

              for full impact, spelling out what the other guys plan to do is important too

              1) no pensions
              2) no healthcare
              3) no post office
              4) no public records of mortgages
              5) no clean water, air or soil

              generally looting your town and turning you and your descendents into illiterate debt serfs dumpster diving for carcinogen-rich leftovers

              It is the highest impertinence ... in kings and ministers, to pretend to watch over the economy of private people, ... They are themselves always, and without any exception, the greatest spendthrifts in the society. - Adam Smith

              by treesrock on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 05:57:22 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Union wages have always propped up (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              OhioNatureMom, The Nose

              other wages.  It's not at all complicated.

              David Koch is fucking Longshanks, and Occupy is the real Braveheart.

              by PsychoSavannah on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 05:58:40 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  My husband plays cards every six (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        OhioNatureMom, mkor7

        weeks for the last 20 years or so.  He is the only Democrat in his group.  I sympathize with the diarist.  One of the fellows he plays cards with has two children that are teachers in WI.  He is a huge Walker fan.  His two kids are Democrats.  They're just starting out in life.  You would think he would care about the quality of what their lives as educators in WI will be like.  Nope.  

        One of the other guys he plays cards with drives school bus.  He's retired.  He claims he doesn't need the money, but he just needs something to do(not sure about that).  However, this guy, he makes $13 driving school bus.  The district he works for is having to sell of their buses and subcontract out the jobs to a bussing company.  He says the bussing company will pay the drivers $10 an hour.  He says, you don't need to make $13 an hour to drive bus.  How about this:  DON'T YOU WANT THE MOST QUALIFIED PEOPLE AVAILABLE TO DRIVE AROUND OUR CHILDREN?  DO YOU REALLY NOT CARE IF THEY LOSE THE BETTER DRIVERS AND HIRE PEOPLE THAT ARE LESS QUALIFIED FOR $3 LESS AN HOUR?  I  guess not.

        I don't get it.  I really don't.  

        "Undermining Americans' belief in their own institutions of self-government remains a prime GOP electoral strategy." — Mike Lofgren

        by churchlady on Tue Jun 05, 2012 at 09:29:51 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  no (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        OhioNatureMom, The Nose

        I'm old. If anything, I'm more tolerant now.
        Same with my dad.

        It is the highest impertinence ... in kings and ministers, to pretend to watch over the economy of private people, ... They are themselves always, and without any exception, the greatest spendthrifts in the society. - Adam Smith

        by treesrock on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 05:02:37 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  It has to be more than that. (41+ / 0-)

      This is more than just smarter or brighter. I agree with this diarist. My father is a retired union employee of a telecom company. My mother a retired teacher. Yet my father is a staunch Republican. How can that be? He has embraced unions my whole life.

      This is just nuts.

      AND WHY ARE WE STILL TALKING ABOUT HEALTH CARE IN 2011? -- Susan from 29

      by voracious on Tue Jun 05, 2012 at 05:34:50 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Exactly (22+ / 0-)

        And I think it's important to find out what that is, because Dems are missing an important message or...something.

        •  I think they are afraid of change. (13+ / 0-)

          What they grew up with doesn't work and they don't know what to do. I honestly think these people are scared s**tless and don't get that there really is somewhere else to turn.

          If this election doesn't make Obama draw a line in the sand with Romney, I can't imagine what will.

          People don't just want a choice, they desperately need one that they understand and feel aligns with what they believe.

          •  I think they are used to rooting for their team. (7+ / 0-)

            They are Republican. Period. It doesn't matter what that even means anymore. This has allowed that party to get away with pulling us all farther and farther to the right.

            AND WHY ARE WE STILL TALKING ABOUT HEALTH CARE IN 2011? -- Susan from 29

            by voracious on Tue Jun 05, 2012 at 06:32:32 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Chuck out the rest... (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              madcitysailor, Va1kyrie

              This is one of my pet views.  I call it the mindless cheerleader culture.

              I think two of the ideas pounded into people in American high schools have a lot to do with how inflexible they can be politically later on in life:

              (1)  Gimme a G.  G!  Gimme me an O.  O! Gimme a P.  P!  What does it spell?  GOP!  Louder.  GOP!  Can’t hear you…

              Cheerleaders are a feature of every high school football game in America.  What do they stand for?  They promote vacuous support for the local side based on slick routines, plastic smiles and whose voices can drown out the other side regardless of the merits of athleticism, effort, intelligent play and sportsmanship.   Cheerleaders reinforce to every kid in America that it’s desirable to prance around the sidelines cheering loudly if you’re not athletic enough or smart enough to play the main game.  Rethug behavior mimics this.

              (My apologies to any former cheerleaders out there.)

              (2)  We're the best, chuck out the rest.

              Kids are encouraged to believe that their high school is way better than every other high school in the league, even through some opponents are just across town and a lot of cousins are rival students.  Think of a pep rally.  It puts me in mind of mass fascist and communist rallies of the 1950s.  Everyone is required to attend.  There is tremendous pressure to act like you care.

              Mindless cheering for the home team occupies every Friday night and Saturday afternoon in every small town in America.  Most overseas visitors simply cannot believe the crowds that attend hometown high school games.  Think football in Texas, wrestling in New Jersey, ice hockey in Massachusetts.  This in turn fosters an us vs. them mentality, even among people who have a lot in common.  It leads to enthusiasm for 'othering' anyone slightly outside.  I've got mine; sucks to be you.  Sound familiar?

              I haven't put this as elegantly as I wanted, but I'll work on my little theory and make it more articulate in future.

              "He has a right to criticize, who has a heart to help." ~ Abraham Lincoln

              by harchickgirl1 on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 12:35:09 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  You are spot on with this: (6+ / 0-)
          because Dems are missing an important message or...something.
        •  Culture wars (0+ / 0-)

          in too many issues democrats are the party of the revolution, the shoving down new and controversial issues down the collective throats.

          I don't have to spell the issues out for you. And for any of those issues there is a group of people to whom this plainly suggests "go away. You are not one of us":

          And, with the notable exception of abortion, every of these issues is a losing proposition for Democrats. (Abortion is, arguably, a zero sum game - you loose the pro life moderates but make up for that in women voters).

          But more importantly you loose on the cultural issues. Even people who mostly agree with you turn away if they get the wrong vibes (for lack of a better word).

          •  Racial Equality? (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            treesrock, OhioNatureMom, The Nose
            And, with the notable exception of abortion, every of these issues is a losing proposition for Democrats.
            Which Republicans oppose on a subtle level.

            "Sisters, brothers and the whities, Blacks and the crackers, Police and their backers, They're all political actors"--Curtis Mayfield

            by Cynic in seattle on Tue Jun 05, 2012 at 08:39:47 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  what you say worries me (0+ / 0-)

            but I think you are honestly telling how it feels to be put off by liberal positions

            if you feel like elaborating, being more specific, I would like to continue the conversation

            It is the highest impertinence ... in kings and ministers, to pretend to watch over the economy of private people, ... They are themselves always, and without any exception, the greatest spendthrifts in the society. - Adam Smith

            by treesrock on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 06:04:46 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  Maybe they want to identify with "the winners" (8+ / 0-)

        I think a great deal of it is fear of change, but maybe it is also a desire to identify with "the winners" even as he loses more and more ground.  That may be something else we underestimate.

        The scientific uncertainty doesn't mean that climate change isn't actually happening.

        by Mimikatz on Tue Jun 05, 2012 at 07:07:27 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  don't forget the other small benefit (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          The Nose

          having groups of people it's okay to piss on for sport

          It is the highest impertinence ... in kings and ministers, to pretend to watch over the economy of private people, ... They are themselves always, and without any exception, the greatest spendthrifts in the society. - Adam Smith

          by treesrock on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 06:06:27 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Is your father a straight, white, male, Christian? (19+ / 0-)

        Like mine?

        'Cause I think that pretty much explains it. Being union is one thing; being pro-tribe is much stronger.

        And right now white, male, Christians are seeing their unquestioned total cultural, political, and economic dominance... questioned.

        At the end of the day I think it all comes down to that: there's a black dude who likes gays and might not be Christian in the White House. And that means the top dog is no longer from the old tribe.

        For most people, the distinction between "oppression" and "loss of privileges that oppress other people" are indistinguishable.

      •  Why does he do it???? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        OhioNatureMom, The Nose

        A pro union dad voting for anti-union republicans?????  What is his logic for that???

        "Sisters, brothers and the whities, Blacks and the crackers, Police and their backers, They're all political actors"--Curtis Mayfield

        by Cynic in seattle on Tue Jun 05, 2012 at 08:37:50 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  No, there are still groups of people (23+ / 0-)

      who simply pull the R lever because that is what they always have done.  I know because they are in my own family (blood and by marriage).  When one of them told me that she proudly voted for the crook (Rick Scott of Fla.), I was flabbergasted.  Many of these people are wedded to ideology and racism that transcends their own best interests.  I am so sick of willful ignorance.

      "Growing up is for those who don't have the guts not to. Grow wise, grow loving, grow compassionate, but why grow up?" - Fiddlegirl

      by gulfgal98 on Tue Jun 05, 2012 at 06:04:26 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  me too (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        OhioNatureMom

        one of my oldest friends is a great person
        does not follow politics
        never has
        votes as her dad did

        just doesn't do meta, period

        best, most loving human being I know
        bordering on sainthood

        thinks Zell Miller a hero
        thought what Breitbart did to Acorn was funny

        This is how I know I'm dealing with reality.  Nothing fits in handy little boxes.  Sometimes I get headaches from it.

        It is the highest impertinence ... in kings and ministers, to pretend to watch over the economy of private people, ... They are themselves always, and without any exception, the greatest spendthrifts in the society. - Adam Smith

        by treesrock on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 06:13:49 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  My dad was like that until Bush. (34+ / 0-)

    He's 67 and says he will vote for the President in November. Now that he has medicare, he's changed his tune.

    Santorum: Man on Dog; Romney: Dog on Car. Ren and Stimpy: Dog on Cat equalitymaine.org

    by commonmass on Tue Jun 05, 2012 at 05:17:50 PM PDT

    •  Bush changed my dad, too (6+ / 0-)

      I wouldn't exactly call him Mr. Liberal, but he at least voted Kerry and Obama the next two elections.

      As crazy as voting behavior can be.... it's not always hopeless to check back in with relatives and try to get them to change their mind.

      I think the best way to do it, though, is to not argue with them... and just hand them some sort of straight-up news article that makes the case clear.

      Otherwise, they'll just assume we're the same no-nothing tree-hugging hippies we were at 15 or 20 instead of family members who get politics better than they do.

  •  With a Sociopathic Mainstream Public Square, (32+ / 0-)

    much of religion, commercial culture all unified in pushing the rightwing memes, a great many reasonable people vote this way. It's a real possibility that before too long, most of them will. It's not reasonable to think that your entire society is attacking you, if there aren't armed guards in the streets.

    There are reasons the framers insisted we needed a journalistic press, equitable distribution of wealth and other things missing from our society today.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Tue Jun 05, 2012 at 05:24:26 PM PDT

  •  We are all fascinated (and appalled) by this (9+ / 0-)

    mystery.

    Here is how I've chosen to understand it.

    We all have good and evil inside us. Conservatism/authoritarianism/"right wingism" plays on the worst aspects inside us all to seize and hold power.

    Hatred. Superstition. Fear. Aggression. Division. Ignorance. Nihilism.

    Whatever it touches, it leaves in ruins. It cannot create. It can only destroy.

    And it does so on behalf of the tiniest sliver of ultra-elites, who maintain their vast privileges because of it.

    Your father is just one manifestation of this ancient - possibly eternal - human dynamic.

    It is a tragedy.

  •  Does he listen to rightwing radio and tv? (42+ / 0-)

    I've recently moved in with my rightwing sister and her extremely rightwing boyfriend.  He sits here all day consuming hate radio and tv and no longer seems capable of reason.  The group think hate that's been drummed up scares the living hell out of me.  I've told him a couple of times already that I'm not the enemy.  I am when the hate on the radio is particularly ramped up.  One night I was walking through while he was listening and heard that liberals shouldn't be able to sleep at night.  I made an off-the-cuff comment about not having a problem and was told I should in such a hateful voice it gave me pause.  Once again I said I wasn't the enemy and he told me flat out that I was.  I know I go on and on about hate radio and tv, but they're single-handedly destroying us.

    "They love the founding fathers so much they will destroy everything they created and remake it in Rush Limbaughs image." MinistryofTruth, 9/29/11

    by AnnieR on Tue Jun 05, 2012 at 05:35:00 PM PDT

    •  I think FOX (18+ / 0-)

      but not Limbaugh (at least I don't think so).  He says he watches televangelists "to understand what the other side says" but surprise, surprise, he has now evolved into someone who pretty much buys into "intelligent design."

      This is a man who was on the beach for Apollo launches and had books upon books about space.  He gave me a telescope as a little girl.  He would talk endlessly about "critical thinking."

      WTF happened?!

      •  He gave in to groupthink (7+ / 0-)

        My parents drifted right with age. Peer pressure, that thing that's supposed to make teenagers stupid, makes a whole lot of old people stupid.

        look for my eSci diary series Thursday evening.

        by FishOutofWater on Tue Jun 05, 2012 at 06:09:11 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I am 66 almost 67.... (13+ / 0-)

          if anything I have gone farther to the left.  All of my female friends are to the left but most of the men in my age group are right wing.

          I blame gender not age.  I think the men of my age group were indoctrinated into blaming the left for everything.
          In the sixties, when were young, many of us male and female, got involved actively in politics during the civil rights movement.  The women then continued on into the women's rights movement.  That's when I saw a lot of my male peers turning right.  

          I have to say I am so disappointed by what happened tonight in Wi.  But not really surprised.   The young people in my family are more centrist and libertarian than anything and tend to be either anti union, or simply do not care one way or the other about unions.  They are in their thirties and I get the feeling they all still buy into their going to be "rich" some day on their own mentality.

          •  It's not a universal truth. (7+ / 0-)

            Republicans? They're always looking backward, back to when things made sense to them, Reagan or something. Back to the fifties, or the sixties, or some other magical era that never really existed; blind to all that was terribly wrong in all those eras. Don't want to know, don't want to listen.
            I get more liberal the older I am. I'm old. I'm male.
            The more information I can get, the more connected I feel. The more I try to get a sense of younger people the better I like myself. I trust, in a group sense, open minded people, and generally, open minded people are liberals, and progressives.
            I trust them because they're optimists. They have dreams. They take a knock, they shrug it off. They're inquisitive. They're creative. Art. Music. Dance. Video. The very best quality they have is they love people. They love, well, love itself.
            My trust and emotion is with them. I believe I'm here because all that has gone before must be only the prelude to their chance to do it better.

            •  are you married? (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              AnnieR

              lol

              It is the highest impertinence ... in kings and ministers, to pretend to watch over the economy of private people, ... They are themselves always, and without any exception, the greatest spendthrifts in the society. - Adam Smith

              by treesrock on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 06:30:24 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  Gender gap among all my older relatives also (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Don midwest, OhioNatureMom, AnnieR

            the ladies became, and remained, more left-ish ---- while the fellas get more Fox News-ish with every passing year

          •  roughly same age group (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            OhioNatureMom, AnnieR

            and that's what I see too

            It is the highest impertinence ... in kings and ministers, to pretend to watch over the economy of private people, ... They are themselves always, and without any exception, the greatest spendthrifts in the society. - Adam Smith

            by treesrock on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 06:29:41 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  We are the enemy (20+ / 0-)

      At the place where I once worked, someone used to play a rightwing radio station.  About a year after September 11, the host and the people calling in were having a fevered discussion about the great threat to America.  It was not Al Qaeda.  During the course of the discussion, which lasted almost an hour, no one mentioned this terrorist organization.  Instead, all the angry words were directed at college professors, liberal elites, and soccer moms. They were the real danger to America, and they were destroying it from within.

      This has nothing to do with intelligence, or the lack thereof.  It is hatred, deep and visceral.  And it is a far more powerful motive than any dispassionate consideration of self-interest.

      •  Soccer Mom's, I give, is it because soccer is (3+ / 0-)

        French?

        •  Deconstructing the soccer mom (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          treesrock, OhioNatureMom, AnnieR

          Many people are taken aback by the inclusion of soccer moms on that list. After all, a soccer mom would presumably be a housewife, which is the role many conservatives think appropriate for women.  And she is not lying on the couch, eating from a box of chocolates, watching the soap operas:  she is actively engaged in raising her children.  So, what is the problem?

          The best I can figure, the soccer mom is a threat for the following reasons:  (1) She is female, which means she is more likely to harbor liberal views and vote Democratic.  (2) Being a soccer mom conjures up the image of a pushy woman interfering with the (male) coach’s decision about who should play during the game.  (3) She is probably overprotective of her son, which means that he will never be able to develop into a real man, and that means he is likely to become a liberal Democrat.  And (4), not content to merely raise her own brood, she will want the government to become an extension of herself, a government that will overprotect society as she does her children.

          But this is speculation on my part.  If perchance any conservatives are reading this, who probably know better than I why the soccer mom is so despised by the right, I would be pleased to benefit from any insights they can offer.

          •  I'm not conservative (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            OhioNatureMom, AnnieR

            but I have a hunch

            girls
            it's because the girls play
            at least in the league my nephews were in

            I remember my brother pointing to one
            short, determined-looking young girl and
            telling me "she will hurt you"

            wasn't sure if he meant by out-performing at the game
            or by kicking the daylights out of you
            but it sounded vaguely menacing

            and funny

            I remember laughing to myself at the picture of that young soccer power player all grown up and out of law school, thinking I would really not want to be opposing counsel across the table from her - lol

            It is the highest impertinence ... in kings and ministers, to pretend to watch over the economy of private people, ... They are themselves always, and without any exception, the greatest spendthrifts in the society. - Adam Smith

            by treesrock on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 06:48:17 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  That deep, visceral hatred inside was once a thing (5+ / 0-)

        that people were ashamed to admit, but Reagan with his welfare queens, Bush with Willie Horton, and by Bush II, it was no longer something to be ashamed of, but proclaimed.

        And it feels like I'm livin'in the wasteland of the free ~ Iris DeMent, 1996

        by MrJersey on Tue Jun 05, 2012 at 08:03:05 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Anti-intellectualism. (5+ / 0-)

        All of American politics has come down to the nerds vs. the jocks.

        The people who think and question vs. the people who "know" they are right and will tolerate no one questioning it, lest they be forced to think.

        Someone else asked on the site tonight "Are Americans really this stupid?" to which I replied "Yes."

        "A good president does what's possible and a great president changes what's possible." --sterno

        by sk4p on Tue Jun 05, 2012 at 10:12:45 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Did you not read all the comments about Us & Them? (0+ / 0-)

          Why would a liberal want to create a new rule for who Us-and-Them are?  Isn't drawing that division the entirety of the strategy of Right Wing media?

          •  So shall we all hug each other ... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            AnnieR

            ... while the Them -- and denying that a Them exists is just denying reality -- keeps destroying our economy and eroding our rights?

            It's possible to pick off individuals of "Them" here and there, win hearts and minds, appeal to people who have genuine compassion, or whose lives have sadly gone to hell and can be shown that there's a direct correlation between voting GOP and destroying their lives, but overall, this is war.  Make no mistake, they think it's war, and when someone considers me their enemy I'm not inclined to disagree.

            "A good president does what's possible and a great president changes what's possible." --sterno

            by sk4p on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 08:00:36 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  the overweening fury of (0+ / 0-)

        chickenshits

        Back when I dated, it seemed to me I saw a correspondence between a man's standing with other men and his subsequent treatment of women.  Men who had high standing with other men seemed more likely to be gracious to women.  The men who took the most pleasure in being abusive to women and anyone else defenseless often seemed to be the ones that got no respect from other men.

        very broad, very flawed generalizations, I realize

        just throwing it out there fwiw

        It is the highest impertinence ... in kings and ministers, to pretend to watch over the economy of private people, ... They are themselves always, and without any exception, the greatest spendthrifts in the society. - Adam Smith

        by treesrock on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 06:39:50 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  My brother and I were discussing this same (0+ / 0-)

        thingi this morning.  It has nothing to do with self-interest.  He swears it's ignorance and hate with a whole lot of ignorance on the side.  That whole group think thing where those who are so inclined don't bother to find out information for themselves and jump on the nearest bandwagon that sounds about right.  It leaves me uneasy.

        "They love the founding fathers so much they will destroy everything they created and remake it in Rush Limbaughs image." MinistryofTruth, 9/29/11

        by AnnieR on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 10:35:47 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  jesus, that's a little spooky (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      OhioNatureMom, AnnieR

      I hope you find someplace else to live soon.

    •  Find some progressive roommates (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      OhioNatureMom, AnnieR

      "Sisters, brothers and the whities, Blacks and the crackers, Police and their backers, They're all political actors"--Curtis Mayfield

      by Cynic in seattle on Tue Jun 05, 2012 at 08:43:59 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I'm baffled (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    tonyahky

    Self-hatred?

  •  My father followed the same path (23+ / 0-)

    I blame Fox News and 40 years of living in the south. He was my intellectual role model for so many years - an engineer, rational, calm & able to make dispassionate decisions, then explain them. But he began making leaps of logic, like "A + B  x 2 = LIBERALS ARE DESTROYING THIS COUNTRY!!" At first I thought he was joking. He wasn't, though.

    I'm sorry for you, Wisconsin, and this country that we can't figure out how to get our fathers back.

    Exaggeration is a billion times worse than understatement.

    by Alna Dem on Tue Jun 05, 2012 at 05:39:11 PM PDT

  •  With some forms of Parkinson's, people (0+ / 0-)

    develop dementia-not always recognized at first...

    There is just as much horse sense as ever, but the horses have most of it. ~Author Unknown

    by VA Breeze on Tue Jun 05, 2012 at 05:39:52 PM PDT

  •  I so wanted to rec this diary (0+ / 0-)

    But given your last line, I can't do it. Comparing American rightwingers - however wrong and misguided they are - to Nazis should be beyond the pale.

    You never trust a millionaire/Quoting the sermon on the mount/I used to think I was not like them/But I'm beginning to have my doubts -- The Arcade Fire

    by tomjones on Tue Jun 05, 2012 at 05:42:05 PM PDT

    •  Except I'm not really (10+ / 0-)

      Of course that's fine, what ever you like.  However I am speaking about people's inaction in the face of a takeover not in their interest, not comparing rightwingers to Nazis.

    •  Really! That's what you read! I'd suggest trying (5+ / 0-)

      again.

      That's clearly a comment on some standard human proclivity, and seeking elucidation.

      There can be no protection locally if we're content to ignore the fact that there are no controls globally.

      by oldpotsmuggler on Tue Jun 05, 2012 at 06:04:32 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Nope. (0+ / 0-)

        You can make points like that without bringing Nazis into it. That's why we coined the whole "Godwin's law," remember?

        You never trust a millionaire/Quoting the sermon on the mount/I used to think I was not like them/But I'm beginning to have my doubts -- The Arcade Fire

        by tomjones on Tue Jun 05, 2012 at 06:34:40 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I must admit (0+ / 0-)

          I try to avoid bringing Nazis, or mention thereof, into my diaries.

          look for my eSci diary series Thursday evening.

          by FishOutofWater on Tue Jun 05, 2012 at 07:37:27 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Would you suggest an alternative? (7+ / 0-)

          What's the point in having history if you ban yourself from using it where appropriate?

          The Reactionary Right probably won't turn in to the Nazis, but it's spooky how this country is Tokyo Drifting to the right.  Only 19 years ago, Republicans proposed essentially Obamacare as an alternative to an expected Democratic health care reform package; less than 10 years ago, the current Republican candidate had a similar plan enacted in his state.  Now you can't find a Republican who thinks it's anything less than Socialist.  In the 1970's, Nixon signed in to law the EPA, ESA, and other environmental protections; now anything that stands between corporations and pure profit is anti-American.

          This isn't generational, or gender based, or age-related.  It is irrational, and looking back through history the best example of an entire country essentially sliding off the rails in willful ignorance is Nazi Germany - not for its atrocities, but during the lead-up when they were simply implementing policies that more and more went against common sense while Germans seemed not to know.

          Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves. - William Pitt

          by Phoenix Rising on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 01:04:20 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  actually I read recently where (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            mkor7

            academics, historians who do study
            fascism professionally, have only spoken out recently

            they seem to have a checklist of some sort
            and said that until recently, the U.S. was not
            far enough along the road to fascism to worry

            now they say we should worry
            and the question is
            what kind of fascism will we be getting?

            the corporate kind (like Mussolini) or
            the brownshirt kind (like Hitler)

            when Romney got the nomination instead of Gingrich, I took that to mean we will be getting Mussolini's variety

            I think that means the good news is that your leaders won't actively harness the fury of those talk-radio hate boogers against us - they will just do nothing, but nothing, to protect us from them (the folks at Planned Parenthood have decades of experience dealing with this one, so they can help with advice)

            instead, we will get the corporate fascist harm they intend for us after the election - Simpson-Bowles

            roll over Beethoven indeed, Mussolini is rocking our world now y'all

            It is the highest impertinence ... in kings and ministers, to pretend to watch over the economy of private people, ... They are themselves always, and without any exception, the greatest spendthrifts in the society. - Adam Smith

            by treesrock on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 07:10:01 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  Except that Arizona border crazy militia guy who (5+ / 0-)

      killed himself after killing his girlfriend and their kids was politically allied with Russel Pearce, the powerful Arizona Republican and the author of the papers please law.  The militia guy actually was a Nazi, so the stretch is not all that far anymore.  

      And it feels like I'm livin'in the wasteland of the free ~ Iris DeMent, 1996

      by MrJersey on Tue Jun 05, 2012 at 08:09:55 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Wait... (4+ / 0-)

      It's exactly these piecemeal gradual transitions that make a democracy an authoritarian fascist regime.  The only thing lacking right now is a leader who openly endorses the channeling of bloodthirst into violence.  

      The diarist's point was accurate.  For every hundred times Nazism is used as a hyperbole & pejorative, there is a time to think clinically about how it happened to a culture that resembled 1990's America in many ways.  

      The sickness in human nature that enabled that hasn't miraculously vanished.  

    •  You missed the recent news ... (3+ / 0-)

      ... about the white supremacist who got elected to a county GOP position here in Pennsylvania, apparently.

      The comparison is NOT beyond the pale because it is REALITY.

      "A good president does what's possible and a great president changes what's possible." --sterno

      by sk4p on Tue Jun 05, 2012 at 10:14:58 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  "They Thought They Were Free" published 1955 (4+ / 0-)

      What is your reason for saying the comparison to Nazis is beyond the pale?

      Are you saying it is stupid? Are you saying it is name calling and destroys rational thought?

      Is there anything to learn from how a country in the center of cultural world changed? This is not the topic of this diary, but it is an honest question to ask if it could happen here in the USA.

      This book described how it happened and that it could happen in the USA.

      I got these links by doing a search in google on the title.

      This link is from a review by Thom Hartman published on line.

      Now I see a little better how Nazism overcame Germany - not by attack from without or by subversion from within, but with a whoop and a holler. It was what most Germans wanted - or, under pressure of combined reality and illusion, came to want. They wanted it; they got it; and they liked it.I came home a little bit afraid for my country, afraid of what it might want, and get, and like, under combined pressure of reality and illusion. I felt - and feel - that it was not German Man that I met, but Man. He happened to be in Germany under certain conditions. He might be here under certain conditions. He might, under certain conditions, be I.
      If I - and my countrymen - ever succumbed to that concatenation of conditions, no Constitution, no laws, no police, and certainly no army would be able to protect us from harm.
      http://blog.buzzflash.com/...
    •  I checked and he compared them to (0+ / 0-)

      fascists

      Nazi is your word, not his

      It is the highest impertinence ... in kings and ministers, to pretend to watch over the economy of private people, ... They are themselves always, and without any exception, the greatest spendthrifts in the society. - Adam Smith

      by treesrock on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 06:53:52 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  It has to be something in his background (3+ / 0-)

    His response seems to defy everything. Are the men who are trying to push him his primary support network? Does he only listen to "news sources" that slant extremist? How long has he been a Republican?

    To be able to respond to cognitive dissonance related to the livelihood of his wife and child this way, he must have some sort of deep attachment to the (R) or an overwhelming social influence - that is, this is somehow very personally wrapped up in his self-identity.

    Supporter of philosophical constitutionalism, republicanism, and democratism. -3.5, -4.87 All about the rule of law and moderate regulation + Civility first + Constructive comments + Remember the cooperative principle

    by LimitedGovernment on Tue Jun 05, 2012 at 05:43:13 PM PDT

    •  He's always been R (9+ / 0-)

      ...and a narcissist.  But even narcissists care about what happens to them.  And if my mother loses her insurance and livelihood this is clearly not in his best interest.

      He believes strongly in a just-world theory.  Everyone gets what they deserve, and if they're poor, it's because they want to be poor.

      Except now they're not doing well, so I guess they deserve it?  But I promise you that he wouldn't say that.  It's because of Obama they're not doing well, not Walker and the Republicans.

      •  Sounds like my dad (5+ / 0-)

        That sort of worldview is all about the conflict of interest - it serves his self-impression and general interests to believe that other people are the problem.

        I mean, he believed that my mother was responsible for me making a call to arrest him when he was going nuts, and that my mother and the courts were the problem when he had to have supervised visitation.

        Naturally, he also blames clients, government, and non-Christians for his business failures, and now that he's struck well-off using money that should've gone to my mother for child support, he attributes it to his hard work and management ability - though his business gets residual income from the success of his partners.



        Your father probably has made the (R) and "evil/unfair world against me, just/fair world favoring me" perceptions so central to his identity that it would be very difficult and embarrassing for him to change his position. As weird as it may sound, not making his beliefs an issue of direct contention might be the best way to help him become less nuts in his voting patterns.

        My experience has been that only when someone like him directly has to deal with the consequences of views and isn't cornered with facts by others will that person move away from his/her deeply held beliefs.

        It's this kind of person who sees every factual argument as an attack on who they are as a person, and equate being incorrect with being a bad person. Their primary motivations are to feel good and to feel justified/moral - facts aside.

        Supporter of philosophical constitutionalism, republicanism, and democratism. -3.5, -4.87 All about the rule of law and moderate regulation + Civility first + Constructive comments + Remember the cooperative principle

        by LimitedGovernment on Tue Jun 05, 2012 at 06:08:50 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Hatred of the other side can be a strong thing. (4+ / 0-)

    "The Global War on Terror is a justification for U.S. Imperialism. It must be stopped."

    by BigAlinWashSt on Tue Jun 05, 2012 at 05:45:10 PM PDT

  •  i feel the same way (18+ / 0-)

    Upon awakening today, I wanted to Facebook & call my family in Wisconsin to remind them to vote. But then I realized that at best they are apolitical and at worst they are teabag-esque.

    Our Grandfather is the 4 time Socialist Mayor of Milwaukee, Daniel Webster Hoan.

    He is spinning over in his grave while they are all deluded by propaganda and outright lies.

    Oh well. I guess that makes me the standard-bearer in the family.

    Avoid loud and aggressive persons, they are vexations to the spirit.

    by LaughingPlanet on Tue Jun 05, 2012 at 05:47:18 PM PDT

  •  Very Good Diary (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    tonyahky, OhioNatureMom

    I often wonder it as well as to why people vote against their best interest. I guess that they think they will be one of "them" if they did. But what is one of "them."

    •  I am one of 'them' (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      tonyahky, NoMoreLies, OhioNatureMom

      But they overlook that.  Except when they vote in a way that will get me laid off and women sent to the hospital with back alley abortions.

      •  my mother (9+ / 0-)

        has consistently lectured about how women should follow the dictates of their husbands (when two of her 3 daughters were single).

        She doesn't understand student loan debt. (I am the only college graduate in the immediate family) Never asked me.

        She pretty much thinks mormons belong to a cult (they do), but she'll defend Romney on every issue. She HATES the whole frat boy ethic, but voted for George twice

        My sister, who is sort of libertarian rather than republican, repeats their smaller government b.s . She bitches  about government at ANY  opportunity, yet she lives on disabilty insurance, our mother lives on a government employee pension, and her bro-in-law is a federal employee.

        I think my mom has been defensive since 1968 about being a stay-at-home mom, and in her mind, she is still proving that she is right. She talks about her mother's anti FDR views. (Never mind that that was almost 80 years ago) as if they are gospel. Her husband of 40 years was a democrat for the last 32 years of their marriage, but she still thinks he "converted" to spite his parents.

        She will not look at the failings of the Repub. party--in her mind it would be like dissing her mother and Jesus too.

  •  Can't explain it (5+ / 0-)

    Although I know similar people. I'm really sorry.

  •  This reminds me of people in eastern Ky, where (20+ / 0-)

    I'm originally from. Coal miners spent decades fighting to unionize the coal mines--I can still remember when the word "scab" was spit out as an invective, and people would tell stories about the relatives who participated in strikes, and how so many of them had to deal with being shot at, being evicted from the mining camps, or having their homes burned down.  People who had lived in extreme poverty were grateful for programs like welfare, food stamps, and black lung benefits. But now, many people's attitudes have completely flipped. I think it has to do with being exposed to decades of right wing propaganda.

  •  No one has mentioned Joe Bageant yet. (7+ / 0-)

    He passed on recently but wrote two books that explain some of this. I've read Deer Hunting With Jesus but not his final book, Rainbow Pie.

    Reaganomics is the belief that: 1) Unregulated capitalism can produce unlimited goods for unlimited people on a planet with finite resources; 2) We can increase revenue by decreasing revenue.

    by FrY10cK on Tue Jun 05, 2012 at 06:02:55 PM PDT

  •  I would bet (9+ / 0-)

    a nickel to a bucket of piss that almost all of you that have posted stories and comments about your dads/mothers/parents/siblings seeming illogical attitudes about politics and their adulation of right wing propaganda are white people.   :)

    •  I am usually reluctant to drift (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      we are legion, OhioNatureMom

      into the  race  issue, but this is a case where I think it is very much an element. As shown by many of the excellent comments, it is a multi-faceted phenomenon, but I believe race is very much a part of it.

      It's a "I can't identify with them type of thing." and fear of a changing world. The gradual nature of the decline in the american quality of life coupled with the non stop propaganda has blinded them to the damage that has been done.

      Evidence that loving, caring intelligent people can be hateful, selfish and ignorant.

      I am afraid the aging demographic will bring us many more years of this, unless we can  get the youth and minority voters engaged in  much bigger numbers

    •  how would it play out if we were not? (0+ / 0-)

      would the dynamics be different in a black family?

      It is the highest impertinence ... in kings and ministers, to pretend to watch over the economy of private people, ... They are themselves always, and without any exception, the greatest spendthrifts in the society. - Adam Smith

      by treesrock on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 07:21:17 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Two words: (11+ / 0-)

         Tee Vee.

    The GOP ... Government of the 1%, by the 1%, for the 1%

    by Azazello on Tue Jun 05, 2012 at 06:11:13 PM PDT

    •  Four words: DNC, get a FRAME (11+ / 0-)

      I'm from Wisconsin.  IMHO, we did not have a candidate that people wanted to vote FOR.  And that candidate did not run a campaign telling us why we should vote FOR him.  He spent his time/money telling us to vote for him in order to vote AGAINST Walker.  That's no way to win an election.

      So, DNC, learn from this.  Barrett had no positive frame because the DNC has no coherent, positive message about the role of government in creating a prosperous civil society.  

      The GOP has a frame about the role of government in creating a prosperous civil society.  That frame/message?  Get out of the way.   Government is bad.  

      We need to start telling a positive message about the role of government in creating the physical and social infrastructure for securing our future.

       

      "I have a right to my opinion!" Well, actually, no you don't. You can FORM an opinion and hold it dear, but you can't merely claim your opinion is true.

      by cityvitalsigns on Tue Jun 05, 2012 at 08:13:06 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  That's my dad. Retired with a good retirement (10+ / 0-)

    from the service and a large city, but hates the government that has given him a good living and good insurance.  Cognitive dissonance?

    •  I gotta repeat what Azazello said: (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      PsychoSavannah, OhioNatureMom

      Tee. Vee.

      It doesn't reflect American culture, it creates it. And it is a god-awful amalgam of Diane Sawyer, David Gregory, George Stephanopolis, and Walker Texas Ranger.

      Reaganomics is the belief that: 1) Unregulated capitalism can produce unlimited goods for unlimited people on a planet with finite resources; 2) We can increase revenue by decreasing revenue.

      by FrY10cK on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 03:21:59 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Bertrand Russel knew why (20+ / 0-)

    he said:

    "If there were in the world today any large number of people who desired their own happiness more than they desired the unhappiness of others, we could have paradise in a few years."

  •  This is the sort of thing that the "pragmatists" (8+ / 0-)

    don't get.

    They present their eminently logical and reasoned arguments of what should be, and what you must believe and deride and condescend to and excoriate all those who dare to point out that......

    ....hey, THIS world doesn't run on logic.

    It runs on emotion. Or at best some odd version of emotionally shaped logic.

    They condemn emotion. Even though all logic and evidence points to the immense influence emotion and "irrationality" plays in the political arena.  Even as it shapes our world, much to their everlasting frustration, they deny that emotion in politics can and does exist.

    The irony of course being....that they are VERY emotional about the fact that emotion shouldn't influence politics.

  •  He's a scared old man. Just like mine. (3+ / 0-)

    There's really nothing you can do, or at least nothing I've been able to figure out.  My family is full of fearful genetic throwbacks that fall for the republican propaganda wholeheartedly.  I pity them and their small, terror-filled world.

    NOW SHOWING
    Progressive Candidate Obama (now - Nov 6, 2012)
    Bipartisan Obama returns (Nov 7, 2012)

    by The Dead Man on Tue Jun 05, 2012 at 06:27:43 PM PDT

    •  Which makes me wonder if people can live too (0+ / 0-)

      long.  Long enough to turn on their better natures and others.  And they still vote.

    •  How did these people get so fucking scared? We (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      FutureNow, semiot, OhioNatureMom

      live in a nation were most of the most primary fears that man has labored under for centuries (disease, war, famine) have been largely reduced.  I grew up in a world that was under the very real threat of nuclear war, something that has been reduced to a great extent.  Where is this fear coming from.  They are getting old and going to die soon?  Hell, I'm old and know that the sands are running out and I'm not afraid of everything.  Where does this mindset of fear and anger have its origin.

      And it feels like I'm livin'in the wasteland of the free ~ Iris DeMent, 1996

      by MrJersey on Tue Jun 05, 2012 at 08:26:54 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Maybe we're seeing both the long term effects of (0+ / 0-)

        modern marketing (both commercial and political) and the degradation of giving children a true education that fosters critical thinking and a love of learning.  But also, a sizable portion of the population will always be genetically sympathetic to fear-based appeals: http://www.psychologytoday.com/...

        NOW SHOWING
        Progressive Candidate Obama (now - Nov 6, 2012)
        Bipartisan Obama returns (Nov 7, 2012)

        by The Dead Man on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 03:46:41 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  or, maybe, the world moved too fast (0+ / 0-)

          the 50's were supposed to last forever.  And then tech and cultural changes just kept coming faster and faster -- too fast for conservatives to cope with.  And in their fear, as cornered animals, they will take down whatever and whoever they can.

          NOW SHOWING
          Progressive Candidate Obama (now - Nov 6, 2012)
          Bipartisan Obama returns (Nov 7, 2012)

          by The Dead Man on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 04:05:39 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Face the Inconvenient Truth (9+ / 0-)

    Correct, it's tee vee and reich wing radio. Does your father listen to Limpbaugh every day, watch FAUX news?

    I've been asking why Walker won the first time around for months here, and getting mostly the dull bovine stare as a result.

    One thing: if Walker manages to hold on, we're forced to face an inconvenient truth: your father and the other family members described here have "evolved" into conservative bigots-- partly due to 24/7 reich wing tee vee and radio.

    They've drunk the racist, anti Obama, Obama is a socialist Kool-Aid which has been blaring from all corners since Obama announced he was running for office. They've bought into the nonsense that lazy black/brown people are getting THEIR  tax money. and they don't believe teachers and public employees "deserve" decent pay and benefits.

    It's one of the main points I've been stressing here for years: we have to undo the propaganda with better, more accurate information.

    "I don't feel the change yet". Velma Hart

    by Superpole on Tue Jun 05, 2012 at 06:37:01 PM PDT

  •  Sorry about your father, (11+ / 0-)

    but tonight I learned that my father, who voted for Walker in 2010, voted for Barrett today. This is absolutely a case of an old dog learning a new trick. It gives me hope.

  •  Since everyone else... (11+ / 0-)

    ...is posting comments along the lines of, "yeah, sounds like mine," I thought I'd post a positive comment.

    I, too, grew up in WI, and attended UW-Madison like many others in my family. My parents voted R for years and years... I believe they voted Bush in 2000 as well. Simply because, "we're Republicans, so we vote Republican." There was very little thought into the vote, even though they are both intelligent, well-educated people.

    The positive side of this is that after the 2000 "election" my sister and I went right at them and didn't back down. We certainly had some heated conversations, but we are lucky enough to be in a family where those kind of conversations aren't going to split anything. Fortunately, no cable TV in the house. In any event, I am certain they both voted Barrett today, which is good, since my sister and I also headed to the coasts (NY and CA).

    One main issue we talked about with them was the comparison of their non-union jobs to union jobs. Getting them to see that instead of saying, "I don't have that, so they shouldn't either," they should be saying, "Everyone should have that, so I am going to support it."

  •  You have 24-7 demonization and hate at Fox (6+ / 0-)

    The old are naturally fearful--emperor Palpitine Rove can USE that.  And does.  Be patient and cogent.  

    Here is an idea I had today, and you should remind him of this:  If you seek to deprive others of education, opportunity and happiness you have enjoyed, you are not just a Hypocrite or a bigot.  You are also evil.

  •  here's my attempt at an answer (17+ / 0-)
    Republicon propaganda has persuaded men of a certain age that the Democratic Party is "feminine" and that Republicans are the only "masculine" party.

    men like that have seen the world change so much--too much.  male superiority is the privilege they were taught from their youth, and by God, no one is going to take it away from them.

    This explains the frat boy/brush cutting rancher/play dress-up soldier appeal of GWB (in both elections).  It explains why they love the gross way Limpbaugh talked about Sandra Fluke.  It explains their hatred of Hillary Clinton and any woman whose success comes from something other than sex appeal or motherhood.  It explains their preference for religions that only have male authority figures.

    So >u>even if they agree with us on every single issue, their identification with "strong manhood" matters more.  This is magnified when they have peer group pressure like a group of friends who watch Fakes News and listen to hate radio together.

    the younger men who get caught up in this absorb it from their fathers' bitterness at the loss of the world the way it was.

    all that fairness and equality and ending wars and making sure old people have enough food and children have access to doctors and everyone is adequately cared for... that's womanly stuff.

    real men fend for themselves and expect others to do the same.  if other people don't have what it takes to get by... tough toenails.

    there.  does that ring true in any way?

    "Politics is like driving. To go backward put it in R. To go forward put it in D."
    DEMAND CREATES JOBS

    by TrueBlueMajority on Tue Jun 05, 2012 at 06:55:10 PM PDT

  •  Just hold on (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    janinsanfran, FishOutofWater, willrob

    Hold on America. The 18-30 year olds are larger than the Baby Boomers and are more liberal than any other group in the history of the country. Bordering on Democratic Socialists.

    So I have been telling people for many years to just hold on. It will be bleak for a while, but eventually those young people will be middle aged people.

    "When we remember we are all mad, the mysteries disappear and life stands explained." - Mark Twain

    by Moon Mop on Tue Jun 05, 2012 at 06:56:02 PM PDT

    •  Is this true? Don't think so..... (0+ / 0-)
    •  Young people seem to have fallen under the sway of (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      jayden, OhioNatureMom

      the opiate of smart phones and text messaging.  I was walking around Washington DC a few weeks ago and every other kid had his or her face and attention buried in their smart phones.  

      And it feels like I'm livin'in the wasteland of the free ~ Iris DeMent, 1996

      by MrJersey on Tue Jun 05, 2012 at 08:31:20 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  But too many of them (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      jayden, OhioNatureMom

      Are very indifferent and not enough of them give expression to it in the political process.  They care more about gaming, comics, facebook, and twitter.  

      Hold on America. The 18-30 year olds are larger than the Baby Boomers and are more liberal than any other group in the history of the country.
      Hopefully they will evolve.

      "Sisters, brothers and the whities, Blacks and the crackers, Police and their backers, They're all political actors"--Curtis Mayfield

      by Cynic in seattle on Tue Jun 05, 2012 at 08:53:45 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Okay, but I bet they aren't one bit more (0+ / 0-)

        self-absorbed and clueless about the larger culture
        than the 50- and 60-ish grizzled old liberal men
        that congregate at our neighborhood tavern

        It is the highest impertinence ... in kings and ministers, to pretend to watch over the economy of private people, ... They are themselves always, and without any exception, the greatest spendthrifts in the society. - Adam Smith

        by treesrock on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 07:29:04 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I have to ask (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    3goldens

    what does your mom think about this?

    To my anonymous subscription donor: THANK YOU!

    by BlueInARedState on Tue Jun 05, 2012 at 07:04:14 PM PDT

  •  I just got back home (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    NotGeorgeWill, SaveDemocracy

    The best I can say is: just talk with you dad. Have a nice, long talk. Don't be confrontational and just ask why he feels that way and explain why you feel he's voting against his own interests.

  •  cognitive dissonance n/t (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    3goldens
  •  Because people vote out of spite. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Dirtandiron, 3goldens, OhioNatureMom

    They don't even know it in most cases. We have been snookered for decades by the fuckers who birthed Reagan and Limbaugh - who made voting out of spite and hatred of other Americans - rather than for the better of the country - an "honorable" and normal thing to do.

  •  They get sucked in by the macho-sounding BS (5+ / 0-)

    about "patriotism" and "not being a limp-wristed liberal" and fortified by talk about "Jesus".

    Then they wonder why they're serfs.

    •  What I REALLY don't understand (5+ / 0-)

      is why so many people here don't understand these people, and that they're human sheep. One of the biggest weaknesses of the left is that we place way too much faith in reason and human goodness and judgement. Most people are idiots who need guidance and are lost without it. Why can't we give them that guidance instead of the other side? Someone's going to.

      Hey, look, idiot, see here, social welfare good, free market bad, fair taxes good, tax cuts for the rich bad. Have a cookie, good boy!

      Seriously, reality isn't that far from this!

      "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

      by kovie on Tue Jun 05, 2012 at 08:32:38 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The Republicans are better at telling them (5+ / 0-)

        what they want to hear. Emotionally satisfying pap that "feels good". That was 100% Reagan: all rhetoric, no reality.

        Progressives tell people what they need to hear, and unfortunately, that's depressing.

        •  Sort of (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          OhioNatureMom

          I think it's deeper than that. That is, there are people who don't really believe in anything and thus will follow the latest bright shiny object that comes along (a lot of them voted for Clinton, them Bush, then Obama). But there are also people who deeply believe in the sorts of things that the GOP is selling these days, and the GOP knows this and is playing them for it. I.e. that whole god, guns and gays crap. The GOP is singing their song, while Dems are still stuck on facts, logic and reality--i.e. stuff most people don't relate to.

          "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

          by kovie on Tue Jun 05, 2012 at 09:15:37 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Driftglass refers to them as (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        OhioNatureMom

        infinitely reprogrammable bots.

        Today - the sky is blue - okay!
        Tomorrow - the sky is green - okay!

        yeah. it makes me laugh.
        plus, I kind of agree with you

        problem is, how do we talk productively w/them?
        because, if we have contempt for them it shows
        which makes them hate us
        which would make me hate us if I were them

        I think without some spark of ... oh, you fill in the blank ... empathy, compassion, fellow-feeling - no one ever listens to anyone

        wasn't there some old line in scripture about how 'without love you are as a sounding brass' or some other thing clanging pointlessly away to no effect

        It is the highest impertinence ... in kings and ministers, to pretend to watch over the economy of private people, ... They are themselves always, and without any exception, the greatest spendthrifts in the society. - Adam Smith

        by treesrock on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 07:35:52 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  What don't you understand? (12+ / 0-)

    That 35 million beats 3 million?
    That in time of economic hardship we are all vulnerable to the sentiment that it's the unions' fault, and the public employees' fault, and the minorities' fault?
    That an organized national campaign on the part of the right wing beats a disorganized Democratic Party where everyone looks out for themselves and nobody cares about any core progressive principles?
    Where a meek looser runs again to repeat a loss he has already suffered, and is beaten by a brash governor?
    Surprise?
    That picking at the ethics of Walker does not a campaign make?  Surprise?

    The people WANT division, they want a war on the public employees, on the unions, on good health benefits.  They want to make everyone suffer like they do.  Most of them feel like day laborers, and they are going to get the hides of those who are in cushy jobs with cushy health plans and cushy retirements and cushy union guarantees that they will have a job tomorrow.   And they are going to get the hides of people who do nothing and are sitting on cushy welfare and cushy disabilities.  And - as we have seen in past debates - if they don't want to pay for health insurance, or maybe are just too lazy to be able to pay for health insurance, let them die!
    We are on a race to the bottom, and the right has successfully set us against each other.  Surprise?
    We will all soon get the government we deserve.  God help us all.  

    •  One more thing that I forgot (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      greengemini, FutureNow, treesrock

      Thank you so much, dear leader of the Democratic Party, for tweeting your support.  It was invaluable.

      •  Yeah, dems again (0+ / 0-)

        snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

        This week, I began thinking that BO won't win.  I think dems are going to get crushed.  We had it all and frittered it all away for next to nothing.

        The banks have a stranglehold on the political process. Mike Whitney

        by dfarrah on Tue Jun 05, 2012 at 08:43:35 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  wait to thank him until after (0+ / 0-)

        the election

        when he gives us Simpson-Bowles for Christmas

        It is the highest impertinence ... in kings and ministers, to pretend to watch over the economy of private people, ... They are themselves always, and without any exception, the greatest spendthrifts in the society. - Adam Smith

        by treesrock on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 07:44:44 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I think you hit it on the head. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      OhioNatureMom, semiot

      I've been saying this for some time.  Whether it's years of media dominance, the economy, the final payoff of intentionally weakened government (to justify cutting more services), the general populace seems to have embraced this 'race to the bottom' attitude.  The fact that so many have bought into the fact that Obama is so "radical" when many of his policies are center right at best is further proof.  By not hitting rock bottom after the crash in 2008, the true culprits of our problems (the ideology, not just the last administration) were spared.  It's ironic that so many of the safety nets kicked in as they were intended to do, and are now the focus of such ire (social security, medicare/medicaid, unemployment insurance, etc).  As the destruction of public education and health continues, the regression can be completed.

    •  another from "They Thought They Were Free" (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      semiot

      I have a comment above from the 1955 book with this title.

      The author, a journalist, a Jew, went to Germany

      The first two paragraphs are from the review by Thom Hartman then one by the author of the book.

      Thom was concerned about history repeating itself.

      Well, it is happening right here.

      "This was also Milton Mayer's great fear and great fascination, after he got to know real Nazis. An American Jew of German ancestry, and a brilliant reporter, Mayer went to Germany 7 years after Hitler's fall and befriended 10 Nazis. This book is, in large part, his story of that experience. Intertwined through it -- written in 1955 -- are repeated overt and subtle warnings to future generations of Americans -- us, today."

      "Mayer opens the book by noting that he was prepared to hate the Nazis he would meet. But, he wrote, he discovered they were just as human as the rest of us:"

      I liked them. I couldn't help it. Again and again, as I sat or walked with one or another of my ten [Nazi] friends, I was overcome by the same sensation that had got in the way of my newspaper reporting in Chicago years before [in the 1930s]. I liked Al Capone. I liked the way he treated his mother. He treated her better than I treated mine.
      (Thom Hartman in quotes, Milton Mayer in block quotes)
      "One of his closing chapters, "Peoria Uber Alles," is so poignant and prescient that were Mayer still alive today I doubt he could read it out loud without his voice breaking. It's the story of how what happened in Germany could just as easily happen in Peoria, Illinois, particularly if the city were to become isolationistic and suffered some sort of natural or man-made disaster or attack that threw its people into the warm but deadly embrace of authoritarianism."
      The [Peorian] individual surrenders his individuality without a murmur, without, indeed, a second thought - and not just his individual hobbies and tastes, but his individual occupation, his individual family concerns, his individual needs. The primordial community, the tribe, re-emerges, it's first function the preservation of all its members. Every normal personality of the day becomes an 'authoritarian personality.' A few recalcitrants have to be disciplined (vigorously, under the circumstances) for neglect or betrayal of their duty. A few groups have to be watched or, if necessary, taken in hand - the antisocial elements, the liberty-howlers, the agitators among the poor, and the criminal gangs. For the rest of the citizens - 95 percent or so of the population - duty is now the central fact of life. They obey, at first awkwardly, but, surprisingly soon, spontaneously.
      Here is the link
      http://blog.buzzflash.com/...

      Just do a google search and get more articles about the book.

      The short, shocking book by Naomi Wolf "The End Of America: Letter to a Young Patriot" published in 2007 lays out the parallels.

      **
      Now I am going to take a risk. By stating a fact.

      Our leader can now make a decision in secret, using a secret process, not covered by the law, and have anyone in the world murdered.

    •  and yet (0+ / 0-)
      I have no problem with people getting what they deserve. I do have a problem with me getting what they deserve.
      h/t to Notorious P.A.T. in comments at the Ian Welsh website

      It is the highest impertinence ... in kings and ministers, to pretend to watch over the economy of private people, ... They are themselves always, and without any exception, the greatest spendthrifts in the society. - Adam Smith

      by treesrock on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 07:43:38 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  your father (5+ / 0-)
    Now, my father has many chronic diseases, and my mother provides the insurance benefits that they depend on.
    In a way I hope he loses his benefits, because he does not appreciate them and therefore does not deserve them and maybe he will appreciate them when they're gone. Sorry if that's offensive, but that's what it will take to open people's eyes. Hr me if you want I don't care.

    Where are all the jobs, Boehner?

    by Dirtandiron on Tue Jun 05, 2012 at 07:42:27 PM PDT

  •  Your father could be my brother-in-law (5+ / 0-)

    The one thing I came across that more or less explained him to me was an article written by John Dean titled "Is Scott Walker an Authoritarian?".  It was based on work by a professor (whose name escapes me right now!) that Dean relied on for his latest book Conservatives Without Conscience.  Anyway, in the article, Dean described the characteristics of those who follow authoritarian leaders.  Out of the entire list of characteristics of such people, my bro-in-law had ALL except for 2.  These people are IMHO dangerous.  They are the people who follow totalitarian leaders.  Something is terribly wrong when people literally worship such leaders.

    If you want to find the article, google the title of it OR John Dean's name and I'm sure it will come up.  I'd do it but I can hardly make my fingers work I am that stunned by Walker winning that recall in my state.  I am beyond sick at heart.  I just don't want to feel anything right now.  The pain of this loss is going to be there for a very, very long time and I don't want to start feeling it yet.

    We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both. Louis D. Brandeis

    by 3goldens on Tue Jun 05, 2012 at 07:50:43 PM PDT

    •  Altmayer (sp?) (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      3goldens, howd, OhioNatureMom

      A professor who's done groundbreaking work into the conservative authoritarian mindset. These people are beyond our reach.

      "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

      by kovie on Tue Jun 05, 2012 at 08:29:23 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yes---thank you! It's Jonathan (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        kovie, OhioNatureMom

        Altemeyer.  What both frustrates me and scares me at the same time is that I also believe as you do that these people ARE beyond reach.  So, how will we EVER make any changes or any progress when these people cannot be moved.  Do we have to sit back and wait for them to help destroy the country and then rebuild it after they've taken it down?!  Right now, I think we are headed on a downhill slide as a country that will not end well for anyone except the very wealthiest.  I don't are to have my fate determined by people who are incapable of changing or even allowing themselves to think about things from a different perspective than their leader feeds them.

        We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both. Louis D. Brandeis

        by 3goldens on Tue Jun 05, 2012 at 08:56:41 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Younger Americans have to be better educated (3+ / 0-)

          The more educated a people is, the more liberal they tend to be. Liberalism tracks with intellectual sophistication, which tracks with education. The two problems with that is that one, this takes decades, and two, the other side is actively and successfully trying to destroy our public education system, both for profit due to privatization, and because they know that a dumb electorate is a conservative electorate.

          Perhaps we need some sort of revolutionary cultural "jump start" to cut through all this, the way the 60's shattered 1950's cultural conservatism? I have no idea how that happens, with so many people addicted to the cultural crack that is "reality TV" and Twitter. But some sort of end run seems necessary, as slow and steady just doesn't work in our favor.

          "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

          by kovie on Tue Jun 05, 2012 at 09:11:41 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Interesting thought. We definitely do (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            OhioNatureMom

            need to find a way to blast through the ignorance that seems to flourish these days.  The absolute stupidity of people who voted FOR Scott Walker today leaves me blank-minded right now.  I can't comprehend it.  But if we don't find a way to get through the "noise" and deliberate disinformation, we are never going to break this Republican/Corporate hold on this country.

            We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both. Louis D. Brandeis

            by 3goldens on Tue Jun 05, 2012 at 10:13:48 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Long-term we have to MASSIVELY improve (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              smileycreek, 3goldens, OhioNatureMom

              our public education system. I mean unrecognizably better, unimaginably better, disgustingly better, effectively raising the average IQ level by 10-20 points such that someone like Bush or McCain wouldn't stand a CHANCE. On the European model that much of the developing world like India and China has adopted, with a longer school year, longer school day, much tougher curriculum, much better trained teachers (who will remain unionized), and so on, with an emphasis on solid intellectual development, not rote lernin' on the still-prevalent 19th century model which taught students just enough to become good farmers or welders (not that there's anything wrong with either, but it just doesn't cut it anymore).

              If we do this, we will make it impossible to elect Repubs like these. IMPOSSIBLE. Intelligent people would never vote them in. But for that to happen, we have to get a long-term lock on power. And for THAT to happen, we have to become better at the GOP's game than they are. If that means lying, being vicious, being nasty, fighting dirty, then so be it. The stakes are too high to take the high road. We can't outspend or out-scumbag them, so we have to outsmart them, outwork them, outmaneuver them, outpropagandize them, and so on. Or we're dead.

              Basically, we have to adopt the Grant and Sherman model. For their AND our own good. We're in another civil war and this is the only way to win those.

              "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

              by kovie on Tue Jun 05, 2012 at 10:25:03 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  I've said it elsewhere ... (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            kovie, OhioNatureMom, 3goldens

            ... it's long past time we switch from "we shall overcome" to "by any means necessary."

            "A good president does what's possible and a great president changes what's possible." --sterno

            by sk4p on Tue Jun 05, 2012 at 10:20:14 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  I don't understand either. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    greengemini, OhioNatureMom

    And I hope that is a good thing.  Because I think if I understood, I would be looking at November, 2012 with nothing but abject dread.

    "A Republic, if you can keep it."

    by Publius2008 on Tue Jun 05, 2012 at 07:51:11 PM PDT

  •  Yup.... (4+ / 0-)

    I am not a Wisconsin-ite, but I certainly have seen elections where I just shake my head at the outcome.  What were people thinking, I've wondered.  I have no idea what compels people to vote against themselves, but it happens again and again.  And they have no idea what they've done.  And they then complain about the way things are.  Because it's the other guys fault.  Sigh.
    It's like a crazy madness takes hold and renders otherwise sane, kind, competent people, loonies.  Is it the water, or the air, or some mysterious alien force?  I dunno, but it's very dangerous.

    I think, therefore I am........................... Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose AKA Engine Nighthawk - don't even ask!

    by Lilyvt on Tue Jun 05, 2012 at 07:52:19 PM PDT

    •  Most people vote their cultural identity (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      howd, OhioNatureMom

      Not policy or the facts. They vote for "their guy" (and gal), because he's a good guy, and the other guy is a commie jerk. It has nothing to do with reality and everything to do with social culture, i.e. the people who you most closely identify with whether or not they're on your side. Most people simply don't have the sort of genuine self-respect required to make their own decisions. Their self-respect is granted, and they just do what they're supposed to do. I truly, honestly, genuinely believe that most people are human sheep, and have absolutely no idea that they are. And they vote their flock.

      "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

      by kovie on Tue Jun 05, 2012 at 08:28:08 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  your dad must watch tto much fox news. nt (0+ / 0-)

    Republicans only care about themselves, their money, & their power.

    by jdmorg on Tue Jun 05, 2012 at 07:57:27 PM PDT

  •  We can mourn what this country has become (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    OhioNatureMom

    and let that be all that is said, or we can celebrate what this country can be in brazen defiance of the old, naive, stupid order of things.

    Simple question: In the years since Republicans successfully urged the disempowering of workers and unions in the Midwest, what has happened to those states economies?

    by Stephen Daugherty on Tue Jun 05, 2012 at 08:07:21 PM PDT

  •  It's like Zombies. (0+ / 0-)

    Why does someone become a Zombie? You can't reason with them about it.

    "The Obama Administration has been an unmitigated disaster" - Osama Bin Laden

    by Explorer8939 on Tue Jun 05, 2012 at 08:12:05 PM PDT

  •  The Bay Area Thanks Wisconsin (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    scribeboy, Don midwest

    For educating thousands of the finest engineering minds in the world and exporting them to Google, Twitter, Facebook, Intel, Ebay, nVidia, Yahoo!, Yelp, Square, Strava, AMD, Apple, etc...

    Good luck with all your Cheese factories and subpar breweries.

  •  Yeah, I don't get it either (0+ / 0-)

    I don't know about your dad, but my best guess is that we're dealing with several generations of men (and their hapless go-along wives) who were brought up to respect and not question power and authority, which in their social and cultural world usually meant conservative white Christian men, you know, that whole god, guns and country nonsense that millions of Americans have been indoctrinated into. They deeply identity with this mentality and "culture", more than they do their health, income, well-being, even lives. Even if part of them suspects that it's all a crock--which of course it is--it's THEIR crock, and if you ask them to take it away, they have nothing left, as they see it. I think we fail to understand the power of cultural and social identity in society, and how it's more powerful than almost anything else, including their own lives. And once you get to a certain age, there's no going back even if deep down you KNOW it's bullshit. These people are done.

    "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

    by kovie on Tue Jun 05, 2012 at 08:24:34 PM PDT

  •  Not to pour salt on an open wound, but I have (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ladelfina, FutureNow, OhioNatureMom

    to ask the question...

    Didn't Wisconsin have somewhere in the vicinity of 1.2 million signatures on those recall petitions?

    The vote total for Barrett that I've seen so far is just under 800,000.

    So where are the other 400,000 voters who could have thrown Scott Walker out of office?

    Confused by robo-calls telling them they already voted in the petition and didn't need to vote again today?

    Fell victim to the non-stop seven times bigger ad buy bucket of the pro-Walker contingent?

    Both of them and more?

    Still, that's a whole lot of folks failing to vote when it really, really counted.

    I haz a sad.

    :(

    * * *
    I like paying taxes...with them, I buy Civilization
    -- SCOTUS Justice O.W. Holmes Jr.
    * * *
    "A Better World is Possible"
    -- #Occupy

    by Angie in WA State on Tue Jun 05, 2012 at 08:29:24 PM PDT

  •  So he listens to talk radio (0+ / 0-)

    And your university endorses same

    Sad

    This is a list of 76 universities for Rush Limbaugh that endorse global warming denial, racism, sexism, and partisan lying by broadcasting sports on Limbaugh radio stations.

    by certainot on Tue Jun 05, 2012 at 08:44:41 PM PDT

  •  Just guessing (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    OhioNatureMom

    I'm guessing your Dad feels like he is a self made man.

    I'm guessing he feels like he deserves more than he has because he has worked so hard, he has spent so many years working and acting responsibly.

    I'm guessing he feels like he has core values, that he has played by the rules he learned growing up, that life has been tough, and has not turned out as promised.

    I'm guessing he thinks this is unfair, and the only way it makes sense to him is if someone else is cheating the system, that the problem must be with some other group of people, some other, that upsets his idyllic sense of justice and should be blamed for not playing by the rules like he has.

    I'm guessing Walker has offered up such a group, that resolves the cognitive dissonance that has been eating at him, that him and his friends can get mad at, and shake their heads at, and blame, and feel good about blaming.

    I'm guessing that wonderful cathartic feeling of knowing the solution trumps the thought that the finger Walker is pointing is at you father, you mother, your family, the very people that play by the rules.

    I'm guessing that as long as Democrats talk in cold facts and Republicans connect with feelings and emotion and values, they will always slaughter us at the polls, even if those emotions are hate and blame and ugliness.

    •  Yes (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      OhioNatureMom

      He does think he is self-made.  He completely dismisses the idea that health care is rationed now and that we don't all get what we deserve.  And when we don't get what we "deserve" it's because some undocumented worker or welfare queen is stealing.

  •  Bill Moyers most recent Journal program on PBS (0+ / 0-)

    was fascinating and enlightening with respect to the issue. Last Sunday an author, whose name I do not remember, spoke at lenght about how conservatives and liberals just react differently. The author was a liberal leaning person originally, but as he worked and developed the book, he himself changed to be more of conservative.......I suggest it would be helpful to see this program. I myself see the need to review it again, as it was quite deep ....and helpful.
    Byrnt
    nyc

    •  That was a rerun. The guest (0+ / 0-)

      Moyers had on was Jonathan Haidt, a social psychologist at the University of Virginia. Although I listened to the interview, I wasn't sure that all his conclusions were accurate, or if they were, they would seem to indicate that it is inevitable that the country should slide ever rightward, as indeed has Haidt himself. When asked at the end whether he was liberal or conservative he said that he had been a liberal until he did his study. He never answered what he had become, but he was apparently more conservative than he had been.

      And earlier on in the discussion he said that conservatives have a more realistic view of human nature. Although he seems convinced that this conclusion is grounded in empirical evidence, I think that he has just traded one perspective for another rather than truly viewing things from several perspectives.

      In other words, what I think has happened is that he's become a disillusioned liberal. He may have had a certain smug satisfaction as a liberal, and now he may feel that the scales have fallen from his eyes, but deep down I think he's just traded one type of smug satisfaction for another.

      I don't think every bit of his study should be discredited, but I'm not very confident with his conclusions.

      Here's a link to the program:

      http://billmoyers.com/...

      "The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. Now do you begin to understand me?" ~Orwell, "1984"

      by Lily O Lady on Tue Jun 05, 2012 at 09:24:26 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I'm just really sad.. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Janusdog, OhioNatureMom

    This is a very sad day for democracy worldwide. Sure we see rigged elections in the 3rd world. But to see the result of citizens united play out before our very eyes in the country the rest of us ( I'm in Australia) look to for an example.
     I am very sad indeed. Citizens united could possibly be the worst decision ever passed by the US supreme court. Shame on them.

    Whoever controls the media, the images, controls the culture

    by nezzclay on Tue Jun 05, 2012 at 09:01:08 PM PDT

  •  It is one of the most confusing things I see (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    OhioNatureMom

    and hear, that those that seem to be sucked into the vortex of GOP propaganda that will kill off their olden years and cause them pain.

    The 1% must and have to be protected at the expense of giving up the rights the others have.

    The wall of propaganda, billionaire money and ignorance and laziness has effected them. This less than 3 years from seeing what Bush did to this county and we seem to have no memory.

    Sad!!!!

    "Alan Grayson is my hero", alnc 11/3/10!!

    by alnc on Tue Jun 05, 2012 at 09:06:50 PM PDT

  •  My situation is somewhat similar (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ladelfina, OhioNatureMom

    My wife's father was die hard Republican. Then he went on medication for his incredibly awful temper, anxiety and so forth. He significantly mellowed out.

    A few years later he went so far as to vote for Obama. He is  now convinced that Republicans don't care about people like him; his family was barely above the poverty line for much of his life.

    This was preceded by years of die-hard Bush worship and consistent discussions about how me and my wife were naive about this stuff.

    So, honestly, I'm convinced that a lot of this is almost just a demonstratable mental illness lol. Maybe that sounds really mean, but I mean it in a good way.

    Once he stopped being paranoid (or at least not AS paranoid) and incredibly negative, the republican memes lost a lot of spark.

  •  I still remember John Edwards: (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    OhioNatureMom

    "There are two Americas." This was never more true than today.

  •  Fascinating thread - blame the voter (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ladelfina, Sparhawk, treesrock

    A lot of armchair psychoanalysis going on here that overlooks the obvious fact: Democrats were unable to win the diarist's father's vote. It would seem obvious. That's exactly the same as blaming Packer fans for the team not going to the Super Bowl again this past January, and about as effective.

    Here's some other facts: in 2008, Obama got 1.677M votes in WI. In 2010, Barrett lost to Walker with 1.004M votes. Extrapolating from the AP figures with 87% of precincts reporting, it looks like Barrett will end up with 1.070M votes tonight.

    673,000 Obama voters didn't vote for Barrett in 2010, 607,000 didn't vote for him tonight.  Walker lost about 100,000 McCain voters in 2010, and about 0 tonight.

    The question everyone should be asking about the diarist's father, or about 600,000 missing voters in WI, is: Why can't Democrats win those votes?

    I don't have an answer, but I don't think it's racism, homophobia, religion, culture wars, guns or any way the Dems might consider pandering to the stereotypical right.  Unlike the diarist's father, most of those 600,000 voters in WI did not switch their votes to Walker. BUt in either case, a rightward shift probably isn't the answer.

    In my opinion, based largely on my opinion (but also on what my neighbors - mostly Dem voters - say), the Democratic Party and its elected officials simply haven't done much or tried to do much for many of those voters - student debt remains high, people still can't get health insurance and won't be able to afford it when it's mandated in 2014, unemployment is over 8% and not falling, unemployment insurance is running out, and if you're a minority, all of that is two to three times worse minimum.

    Feel free to defend the Democratic Party - after you explain why they were unable to motivate over 600,000 voters to go to the polls to kick out scum like Walker and all of his cronies who also won tonight. Or blame the Republicans in the House and the filibuster in the Senate. That'll win the next election fer sure.

    But don't blame the voters - that accomplishes exactly nothing in getting their votes in the next election. Or blame the voters and keep on losing.

    It's never too late to have a happy childhood - Tom Robbins

    by badger on Tue Jun 05, 2012 at 09:16:28 PM PDT

    •  Let's be real - all contributed to the outcome (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      OhioNatureMom

      The voters who fit certain psychological patterns, the voters who wanted Walker gone and didn't show up to vote, the people who ran the efforts to change people's minds, and the people who were responsible for getting others to the polls all share responsibility for the outcome.

      Supporter of philosophical constitutionalism, republicanism, and democratism. -3.5, -4.87 All about the rule of law and moderate regulation + Civility first + Constructive comments + Remember the cooperative principle

      by LimitedGovernment on Tue Jun 05, 2012 at 09:33:41 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I agree, except for that last part. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      OhioNatureMom, badger

      It has been clear to me for a long time that the Democratic party is not a progressive party.  But what I don't understand is why Democrats have to have reasons to vote for them but Republicans don't.

      The Republicans strategy, openly stated, has been to make Obama fail. To stop his entire agenda and keep him from even getting a chance to make his ideas work.  Sure, he hasn't been the genius, 11 dimensional chess playing, rope-a-dope president so many expected, but at the end of the day, the GOP along with the aid of a weak, non-progressive democratic party, prevented him from even considering going for the required solutions.

      You can say that makes him weak, and not capable, but who the hell could overcome that?  Name one person.  The people elected Obama by a large margin. He deserved to succeed or fail on his agenda.

      And at the same time, republicans can run on doing what I just described, NOTHING BUT OBSTRUCTION.  What exactly are they running on? What reasons are they giving for anyone but their base to vote for them.  The majority of Americans were repulsed by the GOP primaries.   But Dems can't point out that the other guy has serious problems with his claims of competence?  His claims of success where there were none?

      Please explain to me why Dems need to convince you to vote for them, but pugs don't.  I'd really like to know.

      Would we be so happy to have a military that dwarfs all others combined if it was a line item deduction on our paychecks next to FICA."

      by Back In Blue on Tue Jun 05, 2012 at 10:00:37 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Republicans do convince people to vote for them (0+ / 0-)

        Republican voters either don't see Republican politics as obstructionist, or they actively want obstruction. Either way, the GOP is convincing their voters to turn out and to vote GOP.

        The GOP lost about 10% of votes in WI between 2008 and 2010. The Dems lost over 30%. Yesterday, Walker got more votes than McCain, but Barrett still fell nearly 600,000 votes short of Obama's total. Those 600,000 didn't vote GOP (more or less) - they didn't vote, along with another 600,000 or so who didn't vote in 2008 either. Barrett could have beat Walker two to one if all those votes were collected.

        Dems need to convince you to vote for them only if you want to win elections, and they need big wins only if you want government to address people's real problems - that's what a campaign is about, and Democrats are doing it wrong.

        It's never too late to have a happy childhood - Tom Robbins

        by badger on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 11:10:03 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Not different. (0+ / 0-)

          If the GOP is getting voters to vote for them to STOP OBAMA, or any configuration of that theme, then how is what the Dems are doing right now trying to STOP WALKER, ROMNEY, fill in the blank GOP scumbag?

          I honestly think GOP voters don't care about the details. They just want to be "FOR" being against everyone else.  After all, it's the definition of a conservative to not want anything to change unless it means going back to the way they think things use to be.

          Dems/liberals on the other hand, for reasons I simply do not understand, would rather fight in the tall grasses of the dunes about the finer points of "that dem sucks because he didn't do what I wanted" only to get swept away by the title wave of austerity and social neanderthal-ism, that is the GOP's plans for America.

          At the very least I am voting to help keep from losing any more ground, on the supreme court, in congress, state and local govts, voter suppression and disenfranchisement, and yes, the presidency.  Because why on earth would anyone actually vote to make things harder on themselves?

          Why isn't what Romney plans to do scaring the shit out of every non-conservative in this country?  I know we're not supposed to blame the voters, but from the interviews of Wisconsin voters, especially that very special group of Obama voters who voted for Walker, all I can say is that this country is in big trouble if this is typical of the average American.

          But, hey!  We're dems!  We're liberals!  We love misery!

          Would we be so happy to have a military that dwarfs all others combined if it was a line item deduction on our paychecks next to FICA."

          by Back In Blue on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 06:20:10 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Yes, that's part of it (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      OhioNatureMom, badger

      But why is it that we have 1.2 million Wisconsin voters voting to keep Walker in office when it's against many of their interests (and sounding more and more like he's just a corrupt bastard to boot)?

      We have to answer that question, too - we can't spend all of our time wondering just how it is that we can't manage to get 600,000 Obama voters to vote for Barrett.  (Some of those voters did vote for Walker if exit polls are correct; others were out of state, since college is out; still others aren't engaged in off-season politics - the reasons are many.)  And too, if this was a regular recall election, getting as many voters out for a recall as you got for the regular election would have done the trick.

      So let's not throw this question under the bus just because it sounds like blaming the voter.  The diarist has a great question: why is it that Democrats are losing so many votes from people who are voting against their best interests?  These should be "our" voters, coming out and voting for our candidates.  Can we bring them around?  Are we missing something?

      Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves. - William Pitt

      by Phoenix Rising on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 01:26:54 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Walker actually got 1.3M (0+ / 0-)

        more than McCain polled in 2008. Barrett got 1.1M, beating his 2010 total.

        It makes no difference why 1.3M people voted for Walker, if 1.7M had voted for Barrett - worry about the 600,000 votes you had and lost instead of peeling off a few thousand votes from Walker's total.

        Worrying about the 1.3M instead is how you get Democrats fighting to cut Social Security and Medicare, worrying more about the deficit than jobs, abandoning a public option in health insurance, and losing elections.

        How to win:

        1. Get all of your voters to vote.

        2. Get the voters who don't vote at all to turnout and vote for you (another 600,000 in WI at least, I'd guess).

        3. Don't presume that you know what a voter's "interests" are better than the voter does, and don't presume that voters perceive the Democratic Party's relation to their interests in the same way you do.

            a. Ask the voters (your voters) and develop and implement policies accordingly (the present method is ask the donors and cater to them). Issue polls already do this.

            b. Educate voters or persuade voters where you can't alter policy to accommodate their present views; frame the debate to emphasize areas of agreement.

        It's never too late to have a happy childhood - Tom Robbins

        by badger on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 11:01:43 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  What's to understand ? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Bush Bites

    It isn't news that at least half of Americans are really stupid and/or ignorant. (no disrespect to your father...mine is as stupid as they come)

  •  someone explain to me (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Bush Bites

    how Kenosha County is 50/50 and Racine County is 40/60. These two places are so identical pilots continually land at the wrong airport.
    Oh, and no more Door County for me. If I can't make it up to Ashland, I'll stick to Iowa County to spend my money.

    and I wait for them to interrupt my drinking from this broken cup

    by le sequoit on Tue Jun 05, 2012 at 10:02:39 PM PDT

  •  My uncle said he was voting for McCain... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    OhioNatureMom

    ...because Democrats were fiscally irresponsible.

    Barack Obama: Gives people who tortured other people to death a pass, prosecutes whistleblowers. Change we can believe in!

    by expatjourno on Tue Jun 05, 2012 at 10:15:43 PM PDT

  •  53% Of The People Who Voted For Walker Tonight.... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sphealey, OhioNatureMom

    plan to vote for Obama in 2012 according to the exit polls.  Only 42 % of Wisconsin plans to vote for Romney.

    Tonight makes no sense.  36% of union households just voted for Walker again.  He has taken their right to bargain away from them, but they still support the guy.

    Maddening.  

  •  Your father voted for his own suffering (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    OhioNatureMom

    That is remarkable and very unfortunate. One day he will likely regret it, but by then it will be too late. He will suffer.

    If he believes he could get health insurance as an individual in the private market with that health history, he is a fool.

    You should tell him to apply for private health insurance as an individual, just to see where he would stand. Perhaps after he is repeatedly rejected, he'll understand his perilous situation.

  •  To quote Terry Goodkind... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    CamillesDad1, OhioNatureMom

    "Wizards First Rule: People are stupid; given proper motivation, almost anyone will believe almost anything. Because people are stupid, they will believe a lie because they want to believe it's true, or because they are afraid it might be true."

    That is why your father voted for Walker.

    "Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible." -- Frank Zappa

    by SaintDharma32 on Tue Jun 05, 2012 at 11:15:24 PM PDT

  •  We elected America's first non-white President (0+ / 0-)

    a scant four years ago. A backlash was inevitable, and RepubliCorp has exploited it mercilessly.

    A lot of older Americans thought unions were just fine... until they started admitting "coloreds". They thought public education was dandy... until the schools were desegregated.

    None of these folks consider themselves to be racist. They would be offended to be called as such. It's buried too deep. But "crypto-racism" explains much of what is otherwise seen as irrational conservatism.

    People whose parents fled to the suburbs during the sixties carry the virus of their parent's overt racism... but it's been carefully channeled into a vague resentment against government in general.

    Walker's heavy conservative support in Wisconsin's suburbs point to this.

    Have you noticed?
    Politicians who promise LESS government
    only deliver BAD government.

    by jjohnjj on Tue Jun 05, 2012 at 11:36:37 PM PDT

  •  No way you couldn't see this coming (0+ / 0-)

    I mean, come on ... the special interests took the 2000 Presidential election .... and though we all knew "nobody" could possibly vote for Bush again the rich took the 2004 Pres election.....and Senator Kennedy's Massachusetts seat ... and who knows how many other state, local, and city elections were bought up by  the power brokers over the past 10 years ... you thought they'd let WISCONSIN slip by unnoticed?
    Someday you guys will understand, as I do, that voting only empowers a system that then uses that "legality" to commit horrendous crimes against the social network.
    Since I get misunderstood, I'm only saying that VOTING is useless. There are many many other ways to fight against a corrupt system. See what Americans did between 1770 and 1780.
    I basically ignore American politics because everything is pretty much rigged and you can tell what's going to win and what's going to lose. I'm much more interested in watching Syria and the Arab Spring countries, where people have finally accepted that voting really doesn't do them much good. (Assad "the new Milošević " was voted into office by a huge majority)

    The people demand the fall of this regime ...

    by fourthcornerman on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 01:46:20 AM PDT

  •  It's because we've replaced politics with sports (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    OhioNatureMom

    in this country.

    People react to the branding, they've made that their identity, and they've forgotten about the business of governing.  If it's got an "R" next to it, they'll support it, just like they cheer for their local sports teams even during years when they suck.  Try it.  Pick a lesser-known Democratic platform and tell somebody, "I heard (name of well-known Republican in your state) is supporting a bill to (insert Democratic platform.)  What do you think about that?"  I bet 9 out of 10 times, if the person is a Republican who thinks the bill came from a representative of the political "team" they're on, they'll say they support it without even thinking about it.  Then you can tell them it was actually a bill from the opposing party.  :P

  •  I just don't understand (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    OhioNatureMom

    how 36% of Union members voted for Scott Walker last night. Just how blind does one have to be to vote for your own demise?

  •  He simply voted for his team. That is the answer. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    OhioNatureMom

    Republicans think of politics just like they think of their favorite college football team.  Nothing that the team does can be wrong!  Other teams can get caught doing the same thing, and THAT is okay because they are cheaters!  BUT MY team is the best, and if they did something untoward, it was for the best because MY team, um, er, well.....

    IT's MY TEAM, so there!

    Now you know.

    Money is for nothin' ...... if Koch and Walker walk free

    by funluvn1 on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 05:30:17 AM PDT

  •  with a handle like LiberalBadger... (0+ / 0-)

    you KNOW that I bleed cheese.  Same here - parents moved to WI from IL, raised us in public schools in Waukesha county. I attended the UW (Madison, obviously) twice - once for graduate studies.  Taught calculus for three years. Even won awards for my teaching. Worked there for years.  Then left. I live in MN now - hoping to move to Switzerland.

    WI has changed more and more.  I'm the liberal "odd sheep" in a conservative family. My niece and nephew were almost named "Reagan" and "Rush" - the later is "Nate" (after much convincing that Nathanial Hawthorne is a better role model).  Its rabid in parts of WI.  And frankly is difficult for some to stand against - my mom has totally drifted to the right.

    I tried looking for the book but can't find it - hopefully community will help here - but it was written by someone from the Nixon administration on the "Authoritarian" personality that has crept into the party of Lincoln and is taking over more and more.  It was a good read, but talks a bit about how that kind of thinking is so hard to stand against for some.  And alot of those studies come out of looking at Nazi Germany.

    •  before you move to Switzerland (0+ / 0-)

      here is a comment from the Overseas Exile website - http://www.overseas-exile.com/...

      I'll offer my opinion since, while I agree that there's never a 'best' moment, there are far, far better moments than this even with the advantage of not having children in the mix.

      We just returned from Zurich, Switzerland, to the US after only one year as my Finnish OH doesn't like the US culture (Boston) and I have a complex love-hate relationship with my homeland, particularly in an election year. Even so, I couldn't leave Switzerland fast enough as these economic times breed nationalism which is witnessed in increasingly right-wing support in many countries and growing discontent with immigration policies.

      ... The europeans are all dropping back behind territorial lines and either raging at each other, raging at Germany (memories are long...) or, as in one editorial in Finnish I read last week, blaming America for this absolute clusterfuck of clowns in suits who still haven't been able to get things back on track after 3 years.

      When Swiss banking types speak in semi-hushed tones about stockpiling supplies for 3 months for when the banks collapse (note the when, not the if), even without all the gloom surrounding the current crisis, it makes you think about what's really going on and wonder what they know that you don't.

      Never underestimate the value of living somewhere that shares borders to the north and south with countries it has never declared war upon (or at least hasn't had centuries of feudal hatred) and knowing the language well enough to be employed and integrate. The US might be boring, but the EU may just get a bit too interesting by the end of the year if things continue the way they are.

      comment was dated 5/2/2012

      It is the highest impertinence ... in kings and ministers, to pretend to watch over the economy of private people, ... They are themselves always, and without any exception, the greatest spendthrifts in the society. - Adam Smith

      by treesrock on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 08:12:35 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  lemme guess, he watches Faux news ... (0+ / 0-)

    A big part of the problem is that the GOP is winning a vicious propaganda war.  That is what Fox news is all about.

    "The real wealth of a nation consists of the contributions of its people and nature." -- Rianne Eisler

    by noofsh on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 07:20:45 AM PDT

  •  LIKE MY MOTHER (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TrueBlueMajority

    Who voted for McCain but who still insists she did NOT vote for Palin.

  •  because about 50% of this country (0+ / 0-)

    votes right wing.

    -You want to change the system, run for office.

    by Deep Texan on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 08:20:32 AM PDT

  •  well, here is (0+ / 0-)

    my last generic contribution to this conversation.

    My favorite definition of disinformation -

    the systematic creation and dissemination of false narratives ... aimed at constructing an entire alternative reality -- one in which the truth can find no foothold because it conflicts not just with a specific falsehood, but with the entire fabric of the false reality that has been created
    to me, that explains why our family members, especially the older ones, resist hearing anything from us

    if they agree with even one of our positions, it means they must question their entire belief structure

    also, if we mean to fight this, then we need to figure out how to counter disinformation, because every frustrated comment in this conversation shows how impossible it is to get through one issue at a time

    and finally, here's a taste of someone who actually IS finding connections with conservatives

    http://www.angrybearblog.com/...

    The article Roth links to is in (drumroll) The American Conservative and, I kid you not, it would not be out of place if it were published in the Nation.  Really.

    Here's the link to that one -
    http://www.theamericanconservative.com/...

    And here is my favorite passage from that article

    Sweden is among the cleanest societies in Europe, while Sicily is perhaps the most corrupt. But suppose a large clan of ruthless Sicilian Mafiosi moved to Sweden and somehow managed to gain control of its government. On a day-to-day basis, little would change, with Swedish traffic policemen and building inspectors performing their duties with the same sort of incorruptible efficiency as before, and I suspect that Sweden’s Transparency International rankings would scarcely decline.
    I think that last description describes the U.S. right now.  It also might explain why our right-wing relations still think everything is okay.  Me and everyone else I know who still has a job, go to work every day and keep things running smoothly despite our increasingly inept superiors who do more and more every day to trip us up.  So yeah, from the outside, things look normal.

    It is the highest impertinence ... in kings and ministers, to pretend to watch over the economy of private people, ... They are themselves always, and without any exception, the greatest spendthrifts in the society. - Adam Smith

    by treesrock on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 08:33:04 AM PDT

  •  Sorta like how my conservative, evangelical (0+ / 0-)

    christian, teabaggy type parents voted for the Oregon anti-gay marriage amendment in 2004...despite having known I'm gay since 1980.

    Atheism is a religion like Abstinence is a sexual position. - Bill Maher, 2/3/2012

    by sleipner on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 10:17:32 AM PDT

  •  I sympathise, too. (0+ / 0-)

    My dad was union all his life, and he hates Walker - the first political thing we've ever agreed on.  BUT, he's voted for every Republican since Reagan, and will never stop.  I've told him that Romney stumped for Walker - doesn't care.  I've told him Romney is all for right-to-freeload, - doesn't believe me.  He think's Citizen's United is bad for democracy but - what can you do, it'd in the Constitution.  There is something in there that is unreachable.  

    Walker, your pink slip is coming, unless the orange jumpsuit gets you first.

    by non acquiescer on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 12:35:58 PM PDT

  •  Propaganda when listened to repeatedly (0+ / 0-)

    ends up having a ring of truth to it.  And people at any age are susceptible to peer pressure.

    So his friends watch Fox and listen to right wing propaganda. And they are all getting on in years.

    There is something about the indignities of aging that cause the particular tone of disgruntlement of Fox and the RW airwaves to be seductive, IMHO.

    I'd like to test my theory about the tone and the words that they choose to see if it meshes with the tone and terminology of a withering body and a not as agile mind.  But it would absolutely kill me to have to listen to that crap.  And I am nearing the age of that bodily and mental decline and want to keep a sharp mind and fear what effect the stultifying crap that they say may have on me.

    Just my own personal hunch.

    "Americans, while occasionally willing to be serfs, have always been obstinate about being peasantry."

    by Glinda on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 01:46:49 PM PDT

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