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Barack Obama campaigns in Milwaukee
Barack Obama touring Wisconsin back in February. (Jason Reed/Reuters)
I'm not going to sugarcoat it, losing the governor's race in Wisconsin sucked. While we'll crunch the numbers on turnout in a later post, the exit polls point to two major reasons why we weren't able to recall Scott Walker.

First, 60 percent of voters thought that recall elections were only appropriate for official misconduct, while 27 percent said "any reason." Another 10 percent said "never"—and those voted for Walker 94-5. It's hard going into any election with 10 percent immediately off the board, and for those who said "only official misconduct," Walker won 68-31. Turns out people just didn't like the idea of a recall—something worth filing away as an important lesson learned.

Second of all, young people didn't turn out. Only 16 percent of the electorate was 18-29, compared to 22 percent in 2008. That's the difference between 646,212 and 400,599 young voters, or about 246,000. Walker won by 172,739 votes. Turns out having the recall in the summer, when the universities were out, was among the biggest strategic miscalculations.

So given all that, it was interesting to see Republicans pretend Wisconsin will be in play in November. The GOP chair, Reince Priebus:

Republicans have the infrastructure and enthusiasm that will help us defeat President Obama in Wisconsin. In that respect, it was a great ‘dry run.
AP:
“Romney now plans to compete in the state aggressively, looking to capitalize on the Republican momentum … His team considers Wisconsin a top target, … and more attractive than even Romney's native Michigan, where the campaign had hoped to establish an Upper Midwest beachhead. ‘The close vote on Tuesday confirms that Wisconsin will be a swing state,’ said Republican strategist Terry Nelson, an adviser to George W. Bush
The reality is, yesterday's election was better than any phone poll, because it gave us the voting preferences of two and a half million actual voters, and this is what the exit polls tell us:

If the presidential election were today, for whom would you vote?

Barack Obama 51
Mitt Romney 44

A seven-point lead, Obama over 50 percent, despite lacking participation of one of Obama's biggest constituencies (young voters), does not suggest a particularly close race this November. If Republicans want to dump their millions (and they'll have plenty of those) here, they're free to do so. If nothing else, we just learned that money really can talk with these elections.

But the Right's messaging tapped into voter discontent with the whole concept of the recall election itself. That won't fly in November. Nor will Republicans win back the 18 percent of Obama supporters who pulled the trigger for Walker.

Or put in real numbers, there were almost 230,000 Obama supporters that opted to let Walker finish out his term but have no current interest in voting for Romney. How will Team Red flip that vote while contending with other pro-Obama constituencies that didn't turn out last night?

They won't.

Originally posted to kos on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 05:48 AM PDT.

Also republished by The Federation and Daily Kos.

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Comment Preferences

  •  That being said, complacency WILL flip the state. (31+ / 0-)

    To the barricades!

    "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." --M. L. King "You can't fix stupid" --Ron White -6.00, -5.18

    by zenbassoon on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 05:55:26 AM PDT

    •  Kos's first point is strong, (26+ / 0-)

      but young people staying home is something to be wary of in Nov.  I'm cautiously optimistic about it, but it'd be good to see Obama pushing his student loans reforms.

      The study of law was certainly a strange discipline. -- Yukio Mishima

      by Loge on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 06:29:54 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Young people were fooled (10+ / 0-)

        Obama caved to the GOP as soon as he took the oath of office.

        Economy still sucks.

        Young people are being told they need to accept a future of high taxes and low benefits to pay for the wars their parents supported in Iraq, Afghanistan, and very soon, Iran.

        He's lost my vote, but in Massachusetts it doesn't count anyway.

        I will be voting for Elizabeth Warren against Brown, so I'm not sitting it out completely, but I'm so much worse off than 4 years ago that I can't vote for Obama again in a state where it doesn't matter.

        dean for america, hope not fear

        by herooftime on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 06:41:16 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  High Taxes? (33+ / 0-)

          Who is telling young people to expect a future of high taxes?  Low benefits, maybe if the GOP get their way, but pretty much everyone is saying we need to keep taxes low.  

          For the record, as a middle class person I feel taxes are too low right now to pay for the government we need.  I say let the Bush tax cuts expire across the board.

          [Terrorists] are a dime a dozen, they are all over the world and for every one we lock up there will be three to take his place. --Digby

          by rabel on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 06:46:57 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Probably a red state troll. (10+ / 0-)

            It's a 30 year problem and not a 3 year one.

            by lovingj on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 06:48:11 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Interesting if a troll; UID 6314... (0+ / 0-)

              Might be, though. Not many comments over the years, & more comments than comment ratings.

              -7.25, -6.26

              We are men of action; lies do not become us.

              by ER Doc on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 07:17:02 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  why is it always (6+ / 0-)

              Expression of discontent or analysis that isn't all rosy = troll?

              What I percieve is a slide toward self deception among our ranks that's really alarming

              Courtesy Kos. Trying to call on the better angels of our nature.

              by Mindful Nature on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 07:36:22 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Leaping to conclusions (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              wsexson

              Why would anyone who thought that Obama's future would yield higher taxes and lower benefits have to be a troll when in fact that's exactly where Obama appears to be heading.  He seems to be OK with raising the social security retirement age (lowering a very key benefit to the 99%) if the GOP will agree to a bit higher taxes.  In this scenario the benefit cuts would fall on the 99% while the tax hikes would fall on the 1% but the truth is higher taxes and lower benefits.  If you look at mandatory health insurance as a tax (feels rather like one, I imagine) then that will fall on the young.

              Candidate Obama 2.0™ has been draw—not as clearly and consistenly as might be liked—the line against shafting the 99% to benefit the 1% but based on past performance it's very uncertain if President Obama 2.0™ will actually deliver on the promises of CO 2.0™.


              My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right.—Carl Schurz
              Give 'em hell, Barry—Me

              by KingBolete on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 08:04:59 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Referendum on Obama is self defeatism (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                kefauver, drpmeade

                First, Obama is not a King, he has to work within our political system.
                Second, he protect social security and medicare. Do you remember the deb limit debacle?
                Third, if Obama Romney win do you think he will protect those social program better than Obama?
                If you don't vote Obama you are voting for Romney,even if you stay home. it is as simple as that.

                •  It is up to you what you feel (0+ / 0-)

                  But trying to make others agree with you  with weak arguments is a waste of your time.  These arguments are weak.

                  •  OK, this: Ginsberg is 79, and ill. She's the most (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Cali Scribe, johnbrown12962, Creosote

                    liberal of the SCOTUS justices. SCOTUS as currently constituted seems bent on fulfilling the Republican wet dream of repealing every progressive gain of the 20th century.

                    So, do you want Romney to appoint her replacement? Or, Obama? (It's already too late for Obama to replace her during this term. If she announced her resignation today, the Republicans would stonewall.)

                    Or, do you believe that doesn't matter either?

                    Look, I think Obama in many respects has been a disappointment. His record on civil liberties and due process sucks, to put in bluntly. His messaging has been horrible from day one. Geithner has consistently sent a Wall Street based message. But he has done a number of very important positive things. And his two SCOTUS appointments, while arguably not stellar progressives, are a far cry from Bush's disastrous appointees. So do I think that Romney would be no worse? Not even close.

                    "But there is so much more to do." - Barack Obama, Nov. 4, 2008

                    by flitedocnm on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 11:36:24 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  And both Kennedy and Scalia (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      flitedocnm, Creosote

                      are in their mid-70s; from personal experience things can go wrong in a hurry when people hit that age. Do we want Romney appointing their replacements that will likely be on the court for the next 20-25 years?

                      Mitt Romney: the Etch-A-Sketch candidate in the era of YouTube

                      by Cali Scribe on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 12:40:46 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  Your argument was that Obama (0+ / 0-)

                      is basically helpless and can't really get anything done. That's still a weak argument, if it's what you are planning on using to persuade those who are uncommitted. You will be hurting your cause to push it.

                      But it sounds like you care more about the rightness of your argument than whether it is persuasive.

                      Everyone does not think like you do. They will vote for Mitt, who portrays himself as a go-to guy, even if he is lying, rather than Obama, if the message is that he can't actually get anything done.

                      Obama is the only choice. But your argument that he can't get anything done but will nevertheless manage to pick a progressive supreme court justice is kind of weird.

                      •  Angela, I believe u replied to the wrong person. (0+ / 0-)

                        I did not make that argument at all. I said nothing about Obama being helpless.

                        Regardless, your second paragraph comes close to an ad hominem attack. That is not especially welcome here. Please take flame wars elsewhere.

                        Thank you.

                        "But there is so much more to do." - Barack Obama, Nov. 4, 2008

                        by flitedocnm on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 02:50:54 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                •  No POTUS has ever been King... (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  johnbrown12962

                  Our President squandered the first part of his term, with a democratic majority in Congress, no less. He got a half assed health care reform bill passed which is dissed on both sides with good reason. He acquiesces to the GOP and the conservative members in his own party in the false hope they will see it his way or so it seems.

                  Our (and every other country's) political system is so corrupted by big business, money and plain old greed that nothing can be done to save it, I'm afraid. The reason the EU is failing is the corruption in the failing countries. Greece, Spain and Italy are beautiful places to visit. Living in any country along the Mediterranean, Adriatic or  Aegean Seas, even on a temporary basis, is a lesson in petty bureaucratic corruption. The larger the country, the worse it is. Especially if the country used to be "Communist".

                  But I'm planning on retiring to a country on the Adriatic, if I should live so long.

                  I'm also voting for Obama in November. Hope springs eternal, as they say. Maybe he wakes up and kicks ass.

          •  That "taxes are bad" right-wing rabid dog is a (12+ / 0-)

            tough one to put down.

            Taxes are like anything else in life - mortgage, car loan, choice of vacation spot; you get what you pay for. And yeah, paying taxes is paying for something. It's called the United States of America.

            Dumbasses.

            Romney - his fingernails have never been anything but manicured.

            by Pescadero Bill on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 07:05:19 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Yeah (5+ / 0-)

              To listen to the RW, you would think that when you pay taxes, that money disappears into a black hole and is never seen again.

              Even the "wasteful" government spending they bitch about goes back into the economy.  I am sure that hotel in Las Vegas is really upset about all the taxpayer money GSA wasted.  So are their workers.

              28, white male, TX-26 (current), TN-09 (born), TN-08 (where parents live now)

              by TDDVandy on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 07:09:09 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  We became the wealthiest nation under a 91% rate (3+ / 0-)

              ... at the top end. Which lasted for about 15 years. Most everyone paid higher taxes and we grew a middle-class demand-driven nation unlike any that had previously existed. No one ever asks Republicans to explain that. And it paid down a deficit that had grown to 121 % in about 10 years. It provided the environment for an era with plenty of jobs which paid better wages than what we have now.

          •  Some Bush cuts helped families so those (4+ / 0-)

            should be considered.  It was middle class childless folks who got nothing under the Bush tax cuts.  I'm one of them.

            The big cuts went to the wealthy and those should expire.

            Congressional elections have consequences!

            by Cordyc on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 07:09:13 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  All the Bush tax cuts have to expire - (5+ / 0-)

              that's the law.  But upon expiration the Democrats should immediately introduce a bill that would reinstate the cuts for those earning less than $250,000K/year.  Allowing all the cuts to expire would also raise the favorable tax rates granted to unearned income and capital gains under Bush.

              "In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for; as for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican." - H. L. Mencken

              by SueDe on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 08:11:37 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  I would too. We all pay way too little taxes as (3+ / 0-)

            it is.  High taxes is a right wing talking point.  It's a scare tactic of the baggers As progressives, we should know that taxes have to be collected from everyone so that social programs and other services of a just and fair society are met.

          •  The taxes for low-income people (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Mistral Wind, wsexson

            are likely to rise in the future as more money is funneled to considerations to the wealthy and to bailouts.

            The fact is that poor people feel the tax burden much more than the wealthy, because when you look at all the taxes and fees they pay, it is much, much higher than that of the wealthy, or even the middle class. And a lot of young people who have not yet found careers are poor at this point.

            Overall I hear next to no discussion of lowering the tax burden on the poor and lots of discussion of tax breaks for "job creators", the "need" to allow banks to walk over anyone they wish to, including those with student debt or underwater homes, the "need" for the poor to pay federal income taxes, etc. If Democrats will not address these issues they are going to fail to make a connection for these voters. The noise from the other side is deafening, and there is deathly stillness coming from our side.

        •  if Romney wins the election you will be well aware (11+ / 0-)

          of how much it matters.  By voting, even an insignificant vote in Massachusetts, you retain the right to complain.  And what would you suggest this President have dont to improve the economy in the face of an opposition that would let

          ...sin that pays its way can travel freely, and without a passport,whereas Virtue, if a pauper is stopped at all frontiers. from The Sermon, Moby Dick

          by jts327 on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 06:53:55 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Why are people blaming Obama when voters have (18+ / 0-)

            never given him a Congress that was Progressive enough to pass significant legislation to turn the economy around.

            The first 2 years even the Stimulus had to be a Big Compromise with almost half tax cuts instead of the direct injection of capital into the economy just to get it passed.  The makeup of that Congress also is why the ACA doesn't have a Public Option.  Then in 2010 the "he hasn't fixed everything gang" stayed home from the polls.  And we have an Obstructionist Congress so nothing is getting done.

            Why don't people realize that the "I'm so disappointed" meme is pure Karl Rove designed to demoralize.

            Congressional elections have consequences!

            by Cordyc on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 07:15:11 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Because Dems always, always eat their (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              pengiep, kefauver, Mistral Wind, Vicky

              own. This is why the poor man has not gotten one break. No matter what he does he is always wrong to some people. It's amazing.

              "Southern nights have you ever felt a southern night?" Allen Toussaint ~~Remember the Gulf of Mexico~~

              by rubyr on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 07:47:50 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  I don't think Democrats realized (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              JGibson, Mistral Wind, johnbrown12962

              how much trouble Blue Dog Democrats in congress could cause the new Democratic president.  And in many areas of the country, voters have a choice between a Blue Dog or a Republican.  Democratic primary elections in many states are "open voting primaries" too, which means Republicans can vote to nominate a Blue Dog to be the Democrat running in the general election.  And also there are sections of the country where the only Democrat that could be elected is a Blue Dog, e.g., Blanche Lincoln in Arkansas.

              "In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for; as for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican." - H. L. Mencken

              by SueDe on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 08:20:53 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Absolutely Cordyc! Everything You Just Said. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              joe wobblie

              Actually, scott walker won in the November 2010 general election attaining only 52 percent of the vote. walker is definitely beatable!

              This is the game the gop were playing in 2010 and are still playing! Psychological manipulation

              Unbelievably; (according to polls), 36% of Union Families voted for walker?

              Video just released shows scott walker vowing to a billionaire benefactor that, contrary to his public statements, he would employ a secret "divide-and-conquer" strategy to deceive the public and accrue power to himself.

              IMO, walker didn't really win this re-call election. Wisconsin Democrats were just practicing. A WI Kossack told me Mon night; that, "The Fight Goes On"!

              They'll get walker in 2014!

              Until then WI Dems have plenty of time to get Wisconsin to know what a fine man Tom Barrett is and to get everyone registered and motivated to vote.

              Educating voters and getting out the vote is a main priority all over the US for 2012 and always.

              Brought To You By That Crazed Sociologist/Media Fanatic rebel ga Be The Change You Want To See In The World! Gandhi

              by rebel ga on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 08:35:22 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  That is such a loser of an argument (0+ / 0-)

              Who would vote for a candidate whose claim to superiority is that they mean well, but are helpless and can't possibly be blamed if they get nothing done?

              Obama is not saying this. You are hurting your cause by saying these things.

            •  The "He Hasn't Fixed Everything Gang" (0+ / 0-)

              Really?  How bout the "Tired Of Watching Him Constantly Knuckle Under To Republican Wackaloons Gang?"

              There's no cure for stupid, and won't be if you keep cutting the funding for the research.

              by Ref on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 04:48:28 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  Just one more Friedman unit (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Loge, vcmvo2, kefauver

          and you guys will be right about war with Iran, amirite?

          ....no longer in SF.... -9.00, -7.38

          by TFinSF on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 07:00:42 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  You're blaming Obama for high taxes? (19+ / 0-)

          Something smells here.

          "[R]ather high-minded, if not a bit self-referential"--The Washington Post.

          by Geekesque on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 07:01:18 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  It's the power of propaganda (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            lynncosbm, satrap, pengiep, Geekesque

            The power of $30 million worth of propaganda is what caused Walker to win. And the power of relentless right-wing propaganda caused that thing above to believe Obama raised his taxes.

            The election season propaganda from well-connected billionaires has hardly begun against Obama. It don't mean shit if Obama is ahead of the polls now. By the time $30 million worth of commercials have run against him in Wisconsin, he'll lose and lose as badly as Barrett.

            •  Maybe in a Vacuum. (0+ / 0-)
              By the time $30 million worth of commercials have run against him in Wisconsin, he'll lose and lose as badly as Barrett.
              But Obama is well-financed too and will be running his own commercials there, so don't be so confident that he's a sure loser in Wisconsin.

              Gonna bust my butt to get Democrats elected this Fall.

              by kefauver on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 08:40:07 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  Young people were not fooled. (16+ / 0-)

          I'm a young person at 25, and I wasn't fooled. Yes, student loans and the job market still negatively affect a lot of young people, but it's not like I was promised that President Obama would wave a wand and my student loan debt would magically disappear.

          How about children being able to stay on their parents' health insurance until 26? Maybe that goes away with the future Supreme Court decision, but for now I'd say that's a great benefit to young people.

          •  I don't think that provision is part of the Suprem (0+ / 0-)

            Court issues.  It is mostly about whether we can keep the Individual Mandate which makes every American responsible for paying a fair share toward health care.

            Congressional elections have consequences!

            by Cordyc on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 07:18:55 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  If the mandate goes, it all goes. ACA can not (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Aquarius40

              function without the mandate.

              •  Maybe (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                congenitalefty

                It might be amusing if the SCOTUS struck down just the mandate; they seem to be into apparent partial measures which turn out to have very serious effects (e.g. the non-precedent setting 2000 Gore decision and finding ways to avoid making a decision).  From their perspective, they will have killed the entire thing while maintaining the pretense of being minimally activist; the right wingers on the court are incredibly political these days.  

                But if they kill the individual mandate Congress then has to act to prevent private insurance companies from getting squeezed; that could force things to go towards a public option or even Medicare-For-All.  It seems like nothing happens in D.C. unless there's a crisis and the invalidation of the individual mandate create such a crisis.  But SCOTUS is going to do as it pleases and we are once again at the mercy of probably a single justice or two making a capricious decision.


                My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right.—Carl Schurz
                Give 'em hell, Barry—Me

                by KingBolete on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 08:13:46 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  The last thing they are going to attempt to do in (0+ / 0-)

                  an election year is Medicare for all or single payer....as much as I would love for that to happen.  No way it is going to happen however.  If this is struck down now 90% chance they will just strike it down totally.

                    However, if they do attempt to strike down just the mandate, ACA can't work.  So it will go back to the drawing board until after the elections, it will not be funded due to a bagger filled House, the states will fight it, states will sue, insurance companies will not comply etc......then most likely it will sit there until politicans are brave enough to touch the now super toxic health care issue once again.  Who know how long or how many election cycles from now.  It took almost 20 years from when Hillary tried last time.

          •  Young people will be the ones to save this nation (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            mattc129, Vicky

            if it can be saved from corporatism and greed. Thank you for being involved. Thank you even more for THINKING.

            "Southern nights have you ever felt a southern night?" Allen Toussaint ~~Remember the Gulf of Mexico~~

            by rubyr on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 07:50:25 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  That's a big issue for those it affects (0+ / 0-)

            and a non-issue for those it does not affect. Don't think it is going to appeal to everyone.

        •  You seem like fun at parties. (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          vcmvo2, TFinSF, kefauver, virginislandsguy

          Just on the issue I mentioned, student loans, if that's caving, more of it.  As a Massachusetts person, why vote for Romney again?  (minus one d vote is just that, objectively.)

          The study of law was certainly a strange discipline. -- Yukio Mishima

          by Loge on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 07:04:19 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  "I can't vote...where it doesn't matter." REALLY? (7+ / 0-)
          I can't vote for Obama again in a state where it doesn't matter.
          So where's your beef: The state? Your fellow electorate? President Obama? The economy that hasn't improved. And then:
          "... I'm not sitting it out completely..."
          You're fooling yourself and hurting the rest of us. The other guys sure as hell will be voting, up and down their ticket. If you can't bring yourself to vote for something, at least vote against the Far and Farther Right that brought us eight years of George Bush and correct the hand-wringing self-defeatist disappointment that brought us the 2010 debacle.

          Those who don't vote own the result every bit as much as those who voted for the other guy.

          Obama and strong Democratic majorities in 2012!

          by TRPChicago on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 07:07:00 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  And what about the House seat? (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Aquarius40, One Opinion, TRPChicago

            I'm so sick of hearing the Karl Rove generated "I'm disappointed in Obama" meme.  I'm disappointed in Americans who are not taking full responsibility for voting in every category they can for good guys.

            Having a Press that sucks is no excuse.  How many of us who don't have kids take the time to find out who's running for school boards?  So now, the righties have taken enough  School Boards that are Public Schools are in danger of being closed in favor of a "charter" for-profit scheme in so many places.

            We have been lulled into complacency.

            Congressional elections have consequences!

            by Cordyc on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 07:24:39 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Who cares about high taxes (4+ / 0-)

          if you don't have any income anyway?

          28, white male, TX-26 (current), TN-09 (born), TN-08 (where parents live now)

          by TDDVandy on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 07:07:19 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  so not voting for Obama is the answer? (4+ / 0-)

          Don't you think life under a President Romney and Republicans would be worse?

        •  still being fooled it seems (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Angie in WA State

          if you think high taxes exist, and you think that is the problem you face.

          Corps and banks have stolen your future, and you dont even seem to notice that or understand.

          Bad is never good until worse happens

          by dark daze on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 07:27:33 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  When Obama was first elected (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Proud Liberal Dem, evangeline135

          he believed he had a "loyal opposition" to work with in the form of the Republican party.  It took him too long to give up this idea and to discover that what he had was not loyal, just opposition.  I don't consider his attempts to negotiate with Republicans "caving to the opposition" as much as not accepting that his opposition really was trying to kill his presidency.

          One way to insure that young people have to accept "a future of high taxes and low benefits" is to put a Republican in office - anywhere.

          "In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for; as for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican." - H. L. Mencken

          by SueDe on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 08:07:42 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  That President Obama EVER, even for an instant (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            MrJersey, evangeline135

            held the fantasy that he was dealing with a "loyal opposition" in the Republicans suggests he's so disconnected from reality that he's not fit to govern.

            "Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens," -Friedrich Schiller "Against Stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in Vain"

            by pengiep on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 08:15:26 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  What I hope is that he never really believed this, (0+ / 0-)

              but felt, for political reasons, that he had to demonstrate the Republican motives to the most stupid of us. Which is why he tried to deal with them in any manner in the first place.

              "Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens," -Friedrich Schiller "Against Stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in Vain"

              by pengiep on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 08:16:37 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  I agree (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Supavash, Vicky

            I think that President Obama believed that, given the seriousness of the situation in 2008-2009, he would have some more unanimity in Congress that some things needed to get done and that people would come together in a bipartisan manner to do them.  He was tragically wrong about that, of course, but not unrealistic in such thinking.  The Republican Party has morphed into something that a lot of people, even some Republicans, don't recognize anymore.  I don't think anybody quite anticipated the level of obstructionism that the Republicans were willing to leverage to incapacitate/kill Barack Obama's presidency.  After the debt ceiling debacle pushed on the country by the Republican Tea Party last year, I think that President Obama has mostly given up on working with the Republicans and I don't blame him one single bit.  I just hope that if he gets a second term, people will have rejected obstructionism as political strategy and sent better people to Congress whom will actually do their jobs.

        •  My Wife and I are Actually Better Off (5+ / 0-)

          Than 4 years ago. So are our family members.

          Gonna bust my butt to get Democrats elected this Fall.

          by kefauver on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 08:10:48 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  we are too, but that's because my wife is working (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            kefauver

            again.

            "Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens," -Friedrich Schiller "Against Stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in Vain"

            by pengiep on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 08:17:10 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Yes, My Wife was Able to Land a Job Right Away . . (0+ / 0-)

              After graduating. That helps a lot. Her family members were also very fortunate to land jobs they enjoy over the last 4 years. My father's retirement funds have rebounded for the most part since taking a dive back in 2008-09, so he and my step-mom are doing better and breathing a little easier.

              Gonna bust my butt to get Democrats elected this Fall.

              by kefauver on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 08:35:52 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  I am too (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            kefauver

            In '08, I was just coming off of 7 months of unemployment.

            I had been a tech contractor, making very good hourly wages when employed. But I was paying my own health insurance and had no retirement plan income.

            Now I have a staff position at a solid company. Even though my salary itself is less than I was making as a contractor, I pay much less for insurance and my company is not only matching 3% of my retirement, they are also giving me another 5% on top of that.

            So yes, I am better off than I was 4 years ago.

            I'm not familiar precisely with exactly what I said, but I stand by what I said, whatever it was. -- Mitt the Twit

            by Senor Unoball on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 08:51:50 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Heh? You're voting Rmoney because? (0+ / 0-)
          I'm so much worse off than 4 years ago that I can't vote for Obama again
          I'm four years older too. Doesn't make shooting myself in the foot a GOOD idea.
        •  Hope you enjoy your (0+ / 0-)

          corporatist Supreme Court for the next quarter-century -- I likely won't be around to see it.

          Obama is certainly not perfect -- but Romney and the Republicans will be worse.

          Mitt Romney: the Etch-A-Sketch candidate in the era of YouTube

          by Cali Scribe on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 12:37:29 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Political strategy worked in Walker's favor... (5+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Loge, kat herder, pengiep, Vicky, WI Deadhead

        He & his people stalled the confirmation of the recall petitions as long as they could. Stalling the date of the recall caused it to fall after students had gone home for the summer. That reduced the peer pressure among them to vote. The delay also allowed Walker to raise more money, and gave his ads more time to work.
             And, unfortunately, IIRC, Walker polled worse against a generic opponent than he did against any of the individual candidates who ran against him.

        -7.25, -6.26

        We are men of action; lies do not become us.

        by ER Doc on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 07:08:53 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Repubs are going to cave on this one as they (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Supavash

        know very well it's an issue that gives the youth vote to Obama.  So we'll have to come up with something else.

        •  the context is turnout. n/t (0+ / 0-)

          The study of law was certainly a strange discipline. -- Yukio Mishima

          by Loge on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 08:25:55 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Turnout, smurnout! (0+ / 0-)

            They had turnout yesterday in WI.  Where'd it get us?

            •  obviously not of young people (0+ / 0-)

              to the necessary degree.  

              A lot of people who voted just don't like recalls, and I can't say they're completely mistaken.  MOst of the people who voted supported Obama.

              The study of law was certainly a strange discipline. -- Yukio Mishima

              by Loge on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 10:59:29 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  People who don't like recalls are fools who (0+ / 0-)

                don't understand politics.  They should never, ever lose a chance to acquire political power.  Fools!

                •  well, this kind of bit us in the ass (0+ / 0-)

                  in California.  I get the precedent of wanting to protect Dem governors in Red States, after the Reps pulled stunts like the California recall (based on perceived incompetence) and the Clinton impeachment (based on fellatio).  There's a case that Walker's conduct -- and possible illegality -- rose to the threshold of warranting removal, a la betrayal of the "Wisconsin way."  i don't think we lost anything by trying -- and we gained the state senate -- but the price is a few bad news cycles as people pretend Wisconsin is in play in the general.

                  The study of law was certainly a strange discipline. -- Yukio Mishima

                  by Loge on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 07:43:18 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

    •  Bottom line (6+ / 0-)

      in an electorate that is about as GOP friendly as it will ever get, Obama is up 7 and over 50.

      From Obama's re-election perspective, it is good news. Combined with the Pennsylvania poll this morning showing Obama up 12, it suggests a very narrow path for Romney.

      The bitter truth of deep inequality has been disguised by an era of cheap imported goods and the anyone-can-make-it celebrity myth - Polly Toynbee

      by fladem on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 06:47:19 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The fight isn't for the White House this Nov. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Supavash, Cordyc

        The November election will be a blitzkrieg of spending on every front. While the DNC is scrambling to defend Obama, the GOP will outspend them 5-1 on Senate seats. If we don't fight as hard as we can, we're going to lose the Senate as well as the House.

        -this space for rent-

        by EsnRedshirt on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 07:15:34 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  The Senate, House and State Houses are (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          kat herder, pengiep, Aquarius40, truth2008

          needed if we have any hope of creating Change.

          So far, we have failed to deliver to President Obama what we say we want.  And that is legislatures that will enact the kind of laws we need to begin to turn things around.

          We also need to stop responding to R messaging, call them out as liars when need be and push our own positive messages for change.

          Congressional elections have consequences!

          by Cordyc on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 07:32:16 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  I certainly hope you're right, Markos. (20+ / 0-)

    The biggest mystery to me, especially among those who believe a recall is only for official misconduct, is why they were so willing to vote for a man who has surrounded himself with cronies now in serious trouble due to official misconduct, and is himself facing potential indictment for official misconduct.  Is this a wait and see approach?--"I'll save my 'no' vote for when he is on the way to the clinker?"  Or do you think he'll skate by without consequences in the federal probe?

    Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it. --Mark Twain

    by SottoVoce on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 05:55:41 AM PDT

    •  I'm thinking all the $$$ spent by the kochs (14+ / 0-)

      is the reason so many said recalls were never appropriate. I'd like to be able to compare this number to a poll on the question before the recall.

      It's sort of a catch 22 with the indictments. They can't allow themselves to indict political figures too soon before an election because it might be seen as political, yet this is precisely the information people need to make their decision. Delaying indictments are also political.

      I'm hoping that his legal troubles post-election will sink these guys.

      •  From your lips... (5+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Shadowmage36, JeffW, jfromga, rbird, 1864 House
        I'm hoping that his legal troubles post-election will sink these guys.
        to the DOJ's ears.

        Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it. --Mark Twain

        by SottoVoce on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 06:32:43 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  And the Kock $ will come in again... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        white blitz, pengiep

        ...and paint any indictment as political revenge and some (how many who knows) voters will agree.  Also, those potential indictments may be weighted against their political net worth and decided that the depth of the deed(s) are not worth the back-lash...and put on the proverbial back-burner.

        Our nations quality of life is based on the rightousness of its people.

        by kalihikane on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 06:53:02 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I don't buy it... (0+ / 0-)

        ....despite the volume of cash spent, the polls show that results were nerely the same as 2010.  I'm not making a lot of friends saying this, but I maintain the recall was poorly conceived lacking a strategy to field a stronger candidate against Walker.  Barrett was a heavy load to life and had been seeking the office since 2002.  He was a known quantity with a fixed voter ceiling and he just couldn't get over that hump.  

        Honestly, for all the Koch's money, they should have done BETTER.  Down ballot, we won the state Senate!

        No one can terrorize a whole nation, unless we are all his accomplices. - Edward R. Murrow

        by CrazyHorse on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 09:32:49 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Recall elections are an embarassment (18+ / 0-)

      for voters. They had an election. Walker won. Then some people tried to undo the election in a hugely public way. If this had happened to a Dem, this site would have had a very different attitude about it. I'm not saying that I agree with the above sentiment. But I can understand it.

      Romney - 2012 - If You Want Honesty, Vote For The Other Guy!

      by kitebro on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 06:33:40 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  you may have a point, but sometimes (5+ / 0-)

        the person elected turns out to have been dishonest about his motives.  If he had governed as he campaigned, it would have been a reflection on the voters' folly.  But since he pulled a Dr. Jeckyll and Mr. Hyde switch, they could forgive themselves and toss him out.

        Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it. --Mark Twain

        by SottoVoce on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 06:46:23 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  The way many voters seem to look at it, (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        maryru, mconvente, fladem, BPARTR

        they signed a 4-year contract with X. They may not like X's performance, but, absent gross misconduct or a violation of the contract by X, they are honor bound to let X have their shot for the full term.

        I'm not saying that is the majority's sentiment, but it appears to be the sentiment of a significant minority.

        Ultimately, the only thing that matters with respect to preserving choice is who will be nominating the next Supreme Court Justices.

        by Its the Supreme Court Stupid on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 07:05:35 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  They did it to a dem in CA and everyone sucked it (7+ / 0-)

        up and they elected a movie star.  

        •  That was a freak show, (0+ / 0-)

          wasn't it?

          Romney - 2012 - If You Want Honesty, Vote For The Other Guy!

          by kitebro on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 07:26:56 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  It was started by Issa in CA and then Arnie (0+ / 0-)

          came in after he'd gotten the momentum going and grabbed the nomination.

          Wish someone would right about the messaging used in that one because what happened was that Arnie turned out to do exactly what Davis had planned to do.

          It was the most fickle political stunt of my life time and I still can't believe that the voters fell for it.

          Issa had done a great job on the brainwashing before Arnie announced.

          Someone with details of the message should write a diary to study this phenomena.

          Congressional elections have consequences!

          by Cordyc on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 07:39:22 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Davis was setup by Wilson who actually (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            madhaus

            deregulated the power industry and then the people at Enron screwed him with the outages and price increases.  People need to get a brain.  I lived in WA and I knew what happened.

            •  I lived in Cali then and the plutocracy and GOP (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              madhaus

              minions turned the power off to our houses more than once due to their shenanigans!

              "Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens," -Friedrich Schiller "Against Stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in Vain"

              by pengiep on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 08:22:22 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  And The Republican-Owned Media (0+ / 0-)

          loved the horse-race.

          There's no cure for stupid, and won't be if you keep cutting the funding for the research.

          by Ref on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 05:03:01 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Walker committed fraud in his 2010 election (0+ / 0-)

        I suppose that's excusable.

      •  I'm as progressive as they come (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        fladem, BPARTR, Wildthumb, CrazyHorse

        and don't like recalls unless there was criminal misconduct involved and the office holder refuses to resign.

        Everything else is just politics.   Continuous recall elections is a no win situation for both sides.   I don't doubt that if Barrett had won that the Republicans would have launched a recall petition and probably gotten enough rabid R's to sign to force one.

        I still have the awful taste of the Gray Davis recall in my mouth all these years later.

        •  Due to the demographics (0+ / 0-)

          of those who tend to turn out for special elections, the GOP have the advantage.

          Romney - 2012 - If You Want Honesty, Vote For The Other Guy!

          by kitebro on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 07:30:25 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Me too. Recalls started in California strictly to (0+ / 0-)

          remove governors guilty of graft and corruption.

          And Darrell Issa, Pete Wilson, et. al., installed a phony movie star. How'd that work out for everybody?

          I was seeing what Adam had seen on the morning of his creation - the miracle, moment by moment, of naked existence. --The Doors of Perception, Aldous Huxley

          by Wildthumb on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 09:30:36 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I wouldn't say it worked out as well for Repugs (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            calwatch, Wildthumb

            as they planned, either.

            Arnold really WAS a Centrist, so both parties were frustrated with him.  Meanwhile, the whole Republican party completely COLLAPSED while he was in office.  Look at the elections afterward, and look at 2012. Not a single statewide Republican candidate worth mentioning on the ballot.

            You ever hear of Elizabeth Emken?  Neither did I.  She came in second on the US Senate ballot and will lose by huge amounts to Dianne Feinstein this fall.

            The only Republicans I have heard of are running for Congress or State Senate.  And their biggest "rising star," Nathan Fletcher, declared he was an independent and failed to get a Top Two nomination for the November Ballot in the San Diego Mayoral race (it will be an R vs D contest).

            Yeah, the whole takedown of Gray Davis was despicable.  He wasn't doing anything worth recalling, and unlike Scott Walker, he didn't run on one platform and swap in another.  I would expect this succeeded because it's easier to recall a governor in California than Wisconsin and Issa financed an army of paid signature gatherers.

            We really need a law that signature gatherers cannot be paid and must be registered voters of California (or whatever smaller entity would be affected).  That would prevent the corruption we have where moneyed interests buy themselves a  Proposition, or even worse, a Constitutional Amendment.  That wouldn't have stopped Prop 8 (they had plenty of volunteers) but requiring California residency would have cut down their numbers a bit.  It probably would have qualified anyway, in 2008.  They could probably even qualify it again now, but it would fail at the polls.

            In capitalist America, bank robs you!

            by madhaus on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 10:23:32 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  Happened in California. (0+ / 0-)

        Romney - his fingernails have never been anything but manicured.

        by Pescadero Bill on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 07:26:03 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Voters think they shouldn't have the right to (5+ / 0-)

      recall an elected official.  These people are confusing impeach with recall.  You shouldn't have the right to impeach for anything but official misconduct, you should be able to recall ANYONE(in my opinion) if they don't do that they told you they would do when you elected them.

    •  That's my question exactly. (0+ / 0-)

       I don't understand how they could vote for someone who is almost under indictment if they think recall is only for official misconduct.  Obviously, there is some smoke--are they just waiting for the fire??

      •  I don't think most citizens know what he has done. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        indie17, pengiep, rhauenstein

        Let's face it our Media is owned lock, stock and barrel by the RW.

        The unions did a poor job of pushing winning messages instead they made it all about collective bargaining which has now been demonized all over the country.

        Walker and his cronies have been on a Privatization tear but you never heard about that.  Save the Public Schools and Municipal Utilities would have worked a lot better.

        Congressional elections have consequences!

        by Cordyc on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 07:45:01 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  See: Nixon victory 1972 (6+ / 0-)

      despite months and months of WaPo investigative reporting by then, from June to November.

      "Let all the dreamers wake the nation." -- Carly Simon

      by Cream City on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 07:20:02 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  mystery indeed (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      SottoVoce, indie17

      I was thinking the same thing.  How does ramming through a law using a very questionable legal maneuver, and admitting in private that it was designed to hurt unions' ability to organize votes against him but testifying in public that it was necessary for budget reasons, not count as "official misconduct" ?

    •  Just like Impeachment. Why the last time a (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      George Hier

      a President was impeached, it was for official misconduct, ........... Oh, wait, ...........Never mind.

      And it feels like I'm livin'in the wasteland of the free ~ Iris DeMent, 1996

      by MrJersey on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 09:31:42 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  All true, but the 18% O supporters (31+ / 0-)

    who voted for Walker need to have their heads examined. Talk about cognitive dissidence.

    I have a hard time getting my head around such thinking.

    You may find yourself in a beautiful house, with a beautiful wife, and you may ask yourself, "How did I get here?"

    by FrankCornish on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 05:57:33 AM PDT

  •  Judging by the exits, Barrett did worse in urban (5+ / 0-)

    ....areas than in  2010, and Walker did better in rural areas than he did in 2010. Suburban remained about the same (Walker +12).

  •  I am mystified (19+ / 0-)

    Why people would vote for Walker and vote for Obama in the fall. It is patently obvious that these are extremely low information voters, given the facts that all of Obama's policy has been repudiated in Wisconsin by the reactionary Scott Walker, from passenger rail to health  care. Over $1 billion in federal funds were turned away that could have created thousands of jobs.

    Trickle Down Economics 101: They get the golden parachute, we get the golden shower.

    by NoMoreLies on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 06:03:17 AM PDT

    •  Meh... not really (6+ / 0-)

      I'm not in Wisconsin, but if Walker is pushing the social issues then there hasn't been much discussion of it.

      The Obama/Walker voters are probably mostly DLCers who are as anti-union as the Republicans.

      28, white male, TX-26 (current), TN-09 (born), TN-08 (where parents live now)

      by TDDVandy on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 06:07:47 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Affluent suburbanites, even otherwise liberal ones (20+ / 0-)

        Really hate public sector unions.

        (-2.38, -3.28) Independent thinker

        by TrueBlueDem on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 06:19:54 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Yep. (4+ / 0-)

          Going all pro-business makes the Democrats more appealing to those folks but sacrifices blue-collar votes.

          28, white male, TX-26 (current), TN-09 (born), TN-08 (where parents live now)

          by TDDVandy on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 06:25:09 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Not only DLC types, though (12+ / 0-)

            In the 'burbs, issues like police and teacher pay are frequently hot button topics. Schools are constantly releasing budgets and requesting votes for higher property taxes. And the nicer the suburb, the higher that cop/teacher pay tends to be. I personally know plenty of otherwise across-the-board liberals who get really bent out of shape at a cop or teacher making $80, 90K, regardless of the seniority/qualifications involved, which are rarely if ever considered or even understood.

            (-2.38, -3.28) Independent thinker

            by TrueBlueDem on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 06:36:37 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Very true, especially in NJ where I grew up (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              TrueBlueDem, Aquarius40

              School districts are always looking to increase their budgets, property taxes are going up, but job security and incomes are going down. There's a huge flip of support for school budgets when one's own children have long since graduated, at least that's what I've experienced.

              •  My mother being a prime example (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                mattc129, TDDVandy, Cordyc, Aquarius40

                She's a die-hard liberal - volunteers for the local penny-ante progressive publication, Code Pink anti-war marcher, all that. She has voted against every local school budget since my younger brother graduated from high school. Of course, when we were in that school system, she complained about "stingy senior citizens" voting down the budget.

                (-2.38, -3.28) Independent thinker

                by TrueBlueDem on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 07:23:25 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Funny how that works. (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  TrueBlueDem, mattc129

                  My brother and I are both graduated from school, but my mom doesn't vote against the local school budgets.

                  Oh, right, my mom's a teacher...

                  28, white male, TX-26 (current), TN-09 (born), TN-08 (where parents live now)

                  by TDDVandy on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 07:36:52 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  How do we convince otherwise? (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  TrueBlueDem, NoMoreLies

                  I have family members who are like your mom. I wonder what the rationale is besides selfishness, and it is selfishness if you only care about good schools when your children are in school.

                  •  We have allow the R's to drive the messaging (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    TrueBlueDem, NoMoreLies

                    on schools for to long.  We have finally gotten to the point were teachers are demonized along with cops and firefighters.

                    Lot's has been spent to drive these meme as the long march to Privatize public services is now a major goal of the hedge fund gang.  It's Crony Capitalism at it's worst.

                    I know I always have a really hard time finding out about school board candidates since I don't have kids.  I think most voter leave that up to active parents so that is how so many RW get elected on boards.

                    We really need to get people to understand that our great Public Education system is what made us #1 in the world.

                    If we scrap our schools and colleges and go to Private, For Profit system we will lose.  We already have many tech CEO's whining that they can't find qualified workers and need to import workers via H1b visa programs.  Then maybe they figure it more cost effective to let India and China do the education and they'll just bring in these Indentured Servants for 6 year stints.

                    Congressional elections have consequences!

                    by Cordyc on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 08:04:58 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  Yup. Very short-sighted thinking too. (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Cordyc, TDDVandy, NoMoreLies

                    If you're fine with the schools falling apart once your kids are out, you're also accepting the diminished reputation of the district and the corresponding fall in property values.

                    To their credit, they admit the hypocrisy and that "we can't afford this neighborhood anymore", so they will be moving to Florida soon, where nobody (present company excluded my dear Kossacks) gives a crap about the schools.

                    (-2.38, -3.28) Independent thinker

                    by TrueBlueDem on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 08:08:38 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  Simple. (0+ / 0-)

                    Help them understand that these youth currently enrolled in the public education will be the ones caring for them in their old age, their golden years. Ask them just how dumb do they really want these future care-givers and policy makers to be.

                    Nurse Kelley says my writing is brilliant and my soul is shiny - who am I to argue?
                    Economic
                    Left/Right: -7.75
                    Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.51

                    by Bud Fields on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 03:03:06 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                •  I just don't get that (0+ / 0-)

                  I live in the suburbs, Silicon Valley.  My house is worth a shit-ton of money because it's in an excellent school district (it sure isn't worth it for any other reason since it's a 55 year old tiny rancher).  I'd be an idiot to EVER vote against any school bond or parcel tax.  It's those schools that are keeping my home values up.

                  Why can't those other people see the connection?  If they won't vote in the interests of everyone, they could at least see they're voting to keep their investment in their homes, and to keep their neighborhood "Special."

                  In capitalist America, bank robs you!

                  by madhaus on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 10:27:25 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  Jersey is a special case where every little town (0+ / 0-)

                and burb wants to have total control of its own school involving the expense of a school board, a superintendant of schools, a financial administrator, and the entire host of other administrative specialists needed to run a school system here.  Half of these school boards run only one elementary school.  There is a steadfast refusal to give up local control and regionalize the school boards, but a continual moaning, wailing, and gnashing of teeth about how much all these school taxes are.  It could be much cheaper, but people want their beer to be less filling, but taste great, and as we beer drinkers know, that is impossible.

                And it feels like I'm livin'in the wasteland of the free ~ Iris DeMent, 1996

                by MrJersey on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 09:39:29 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I'm FROM NJ too, grew up in Bergen County (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  calwatch

                  And I am very familiar with the insanely high property taxes you'll find there.  While I despise Prop 13 (why should I pay 1/3 what my neighbor pays in taxes just because I've lived here longer), having your house randomly reassessed for amounts that bear little relation to market values isn't too wonderful either, and I've seen taxes three times the rate they are here... for new buyers.

                  The school board situation here in Silicon Valley is even weirder, where school district lines cross the city borders all over the place.  At least in NJ the school board has a reason to work with the city governments or town councils.  Over here they often work at cross purposes, where the city will put in new housing because they need the developer fees while the school boards affected are screaming they don't have any more room for more students.  The only reason it isn't worse is this area is so built up there's little room to roll in more housing projects.

                  I can't even count how many different school districts there are in San Jose (which is the 10th largest city in the country with around 950,000 residents).  The school district I'm in, Cupertino, embraces the entire city of Cupertino and pieces of five other cities.  The city I live in, Sunnyvale (pop 140,000), has three different elementary school districts and two High School districts.  The upscale community of Saratoga, a few miles from me, has SEVEN different school districts for a city of 30,000.  Four elementary and three high school districts.  And yes, there is indeed a Saratoga elementary district, this isn't because they're "too small" for their own.

                  Our County Board of Ed proposed combining several districts to reduce the 31 in the county down to 15 or so.  They were right that onesie-twosie districts should be rolled up, but they blew it by proposing a few elementary districts combine with the high schools they feed to.  Some of those elementary districts were larger than the ones they held up as models.  Cupertino Unified SD has 25 schools, larger than the unified districts they touted which had 15, and they wanted it to merge with a neighboring school district and the 5 high schools in the high school district.

                  Every single school board responded to the proposal (by law they had to) with a reason why it was a bad idea.  I do think the tiny ones need to go.

                  By the way, Los Angeles has ONE school district, which also serves some adjoining cities.  It has 730 schools.  I don't think that's a good idea either.

                  In capitalist America, bank robs you!

                  by madhaus on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 10:39:40 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  It is not the salary that makes them upset, it is (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              NoMoreLies

              the salary with benefits that push them into the middle to high +$100 range, add to that the schools nickel and dime parents to death with sports costs and supply costs.  Our public schools have become private/public hybrids.  

              •  Around here they use a few of the top employee (0+ / 0-)

                big salaries and imply that everyone is making that and the local media go along with it.  It's the same with the Pension program.  Cherry pick a few top earners and keep repeating those numbers.  Never a word about the average worker.

                We also seemed to have had a full on assault on Public Employee Pensions after the 08 meltdown.  It was perfect timing after the huge losses in the markets to start whaling about how underfunded the pension were.  Well, duh.

                Congressional elections have consequences!

                by Cordyc on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 08:10:20 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  Must be a blue state thing. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              fearlessfred14, dankester

              My mom makes, maybe, $60k a year as a 57-year-old public school teacher in the South.

              Cut your teachers' salaries to that level, and your schools can be just as good as Tennessee's!

              28, white male, TX-26 (current), TN-09 (born), TN-08 (where parents live now)

              by TDDVandy on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 07:38:28 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Must be (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                TDDVandy

                These teaching salaries sound astronomical.  My mother has been teaching in Florida for almost forty years and has all the extra qualifications that entitle her to more pay one can have, and she tops out less than 70k, I'm pretty sure.

                Of course a lot of schools down here are so bad that the students would be better off simply not attending them and watching tv all day.  I went to a couple of those.    

                "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross."

                by dankester on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 08:11:34 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Yeah. Lack of textbooks, sky high teacher turnover (0+ / 0-)

                  Happily married to an underpaid, under-appreciated Florida charter school teacher, who is desperately looking for the exits.

                  (-2.38, -3.28) Independent thinker

                  by TrueBlueDem on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 08:22:44 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  It's all relative. The teaching salaries are high (0+ / 0-)

                  here in the Northeast because teachers also have to live here in order to work here.  Rents and real estate are much lower in Florida than they are anywhere in the NYC metro area, so salary and benefits have to be higher in order to support a teaching staff.  Teachers cannot live at Florida prices in NYC.

                  And it feels like I'm livin'in the wasteland of the free ~ Iris DeMent, 1996

                  by MrJersey on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 09:42:39 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  That's mainly why I was so anti-Act 10 at first (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                TrueBlueDem, TDDVandy, NoMoreLies

                Growing up in Nashville, I've always thought that "overpaid teacher" was a contradiction in terms. Teachers down there have to put up with all sorts of BS for so little money. And It's Not Working for Tennessee students.

                Male, 21, -4.75/-6.92, born and raised TN-05, now WI-02, remorseless supporter of Walker's recall. Pocan for Congress and Baldwin for Senate!

                by fearlessfred14 on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 08:13:19 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  It's a big mystery (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  TrueBlueDem, TDDVandy, MrJersey

                  How underfunded schools, with underpaid teachers, create so many under educated and under skilled people.  

                  Oh wait, no it's not.  At all.  

                  Every time I ever visited a cousin or other relative in a different part of the country and saw their school I couldn't believe what a palace they went to compared to my Florida schools.

                  It's also not a coincidence those schools were much much better and turned out better students.  

                  "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross."

                  by dankester on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 08:17:06 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  At first? (0+ / 0-)

                  What changed your mind?

                  And I don't know, Tennessee schools worked just fine for me, I think.  (But then I was motivated to learn on my own.)

                  28, white male, TX-26 (current), TN-09 (born), TN-08 (where parents live now)

                  by TDDVandy on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 08:45:15 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  TN schools worked for me too (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    TDDVandy

                    for the reasons you quote. And because I got lucky with what school I went to and when. But I also know many students who were badly left behind. I never changed my mind about Act 10 (Walker's notorious "budget repair bill"). I just found other reasons to hate it and despise Walker.

                    Male, 21, -4.75/-6.92, born and raised TN-05, now WI-02, remorseless supporter of Walker's recall. Pocan for Congress and Baldwin for Senate!

                    by fearlessfred14 on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 08:49:15 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Ah, right. (0+ / 0-)

                      I lucked out, was in Shelby County Schools (possibly best schools in the state)... of course that's hardly representative of most of the schools in TN.

                      28, white male, TX-26 (current), TN-09 (born), TN-08 (where parents live now)

                      by TDDVandy on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 08:52:30 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

              •  Yeah. Grew up on Long Island, NY (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                TDDVandy, MrJersey, madhaus, wsexson

                One of the most expensive areas of the country. So admittedly the 80-90K numbers are not representative of the country as a whole.

                But even in low COL areas, somebody making $35K will resent the senior teacher making $55-60K. So will the a-hole teabagger making $120K.

                (-2.38, -3.28) Independent thinker

                by TrueBlueDem on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 08:18:16 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  well (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  TrueBlueDem, NoMoreLies

                  Scratch at the surface of a Teabagger hard enough, and what it really comes down to is that they just resent the fact that they have to pay taxes at all.

                  They ultimately could care less about what their tax dollars are spent on; they just don't think they should have to pay taxes in the first place.

                  28, white male, TX-26 (current), TN-09 (born), TN-08 (where parents live now)

                  by TDDVandy on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 08:43:55 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Absolutely (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    TDDVandy, NoMoreLies

                    And sometimes I wish we could indulge their fantasies of a tax-free life so that they may experience first-hand the third-world hell that such ideology creates.

                    There are dozens of countries that levy minimal or no taxes. Can't think of a single one a comfortable American would ever want to live in. But to the jingoistic, ethnocentric teabagger, those places just don't exist.

                    (-2.38, -3.28) Independent thinker

                    by TrueBlueDem on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 08:50:36 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

            •  This issue is present in CA as well (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Sinan, Cordyc

              We have public union employees retiring with outrageous guaranteed pensions that the tax-paying members of the state are on the hook for paying.

              Non-union employees in this right to work state are not happy about this considering that many of them cannot retire because their 401Ks are not sufficient to provide them with enough income to retire even sometimes at 65.

              They see public employees retiring with full and outrageously generous retirement packages after only 20 years of service meaning some of the individuals are only in their 40's.    This disparity causes lots of friction even for very progressive individuals who do not like the unequal treatment.

              It really is an issue that labor needs to address or this issue will be played out over and over again across the country.

              •  Agree completely. (0+ / 0-)

                I for one am truly pissed at some of these deals I see my friends getting in the greater SB area. We are talking huge bucks for life...

                Do facts matter anymore?

                by Sinan on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 07:53:08 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  It seems to me that they are cherry picking the (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                wsexson

                top employees who had figured out way to game the system.  While the average teacher or worker only gets a modest pension.

                In CA it's something around 1% of all public pension that got these sweetheart deals.  Our local press goes along with this nonsense and the unions never seems to have a spokesperson rebut this misleading nonsense.  

                We also have the whole under funding issues to deal with, much of which was caused by a heavy load of toxic assets sold to CALPERS.  Were do you think those bundles of toxic mortgages ended up.  The mismanagement never gets talked about.

                Congressional elections have consequences!

                by Cordyc on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 08:21:05 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Well the firefighters and police (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  NoMoreLies, calwatch

                  definitely have better benefits than most other public sector unions from what I can tell but even the other public sector union members have outrageously generous packages compared to the private sector.

                  Before you even start about that is a problem with the public sector, I'll say that I agree that 401Ks were a stupid giveaway to the private financial sector at the expense of older American's quality of life in retirement, however, the inequality that now exists is going to be a political problem for Democrats and public sector labor unions and shoving our heads in the sand about it isn't going to do anything to fix the problem.

            •  when $ and jobs get really (0+ / 0-)

              tight, and scarce and contingent, then people do get angry at those who have some security.  And nothing is tighter than health care these days, and our access, if we have it, has never been so contingent.

              It sounds also like Walker was able to very effectively focus all the campaign on the teachers unions, and their health benefits, and so to make them a sort of out group.

        •  True, but some of them weren't all that thrilled (4+ / 0-)

          with Barrett.

          Whatever....methinks Walker's shelf-life will be pretty short.

      •  He has. (0+ / 0-)

        Repealed equal pay laws and passed an ultrasound bill.

        The stuff about teachers unions, specifically, is wrong but doesn't exactly play poorly in cities, where Barrett underperformed.

        The study of law was certainly a strange discipline. -- Yukio Mishima

        by Loge on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 06:31:52 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  It seemed to me that the union drove the message (0+ / 0-)

          and ignored so many of the other issues beside collective bargaining.

          Congressional elections have consequences!

          by Cordyc on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 08:25:59 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I disagree, if I understand your premise. (0+ / 0-)

            Unions did not drive (as in, determine or dictate) the message. The Republicans (for example the Koch Brothers, who in their anti-public education, anti-union zeal donated more to the Recall Election by double, than the entire Barrett campaign collected) drove the message.

            The buzz words were "union" and "collective bargaining". The other side could not come up with the scratch to respond, much less respond effectively.

            Nurse Kelley says my writing is brilliant and my soul is shiny - who am I to argue?
            Economic
            Left/Right: -7.75
            Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.51

            by Bud Fields on Thu Jun 07, 2012 at 03:14:38 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  No these are voters (9+ / 0-)

      who voted for Walker because they thought the recall shouldn't have happened in the first place. They felt not liking a guys agenda was not cause to throw someone out who was elected in a fair election in the first place.

      I am going to bet if Walker keeps going down the path he has laid out these same people will not vote for him in 14.

      Republican Family Values: Using the daughters from your first wife to convince everybody that your second wife is lying about your third wife.

      by jsfox on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 06:10:47 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I think people are overplaying anti-recall... (16+ / 0-)

      sentiment.

      I spoke to one of the pro-Walker, pro-Obama voters yesterday.  He voted for Walker because he believes he'll keep property taxes low, and he's voting for Obama because "he likes him."  The recall methodology had nothing to do with it.

      For years, Wisconsin voters re-elected Tommy Thompson for Governor and voted for the Dem nominee for President.  Ticket splitting just isn't that uncommon here.

    •  Pro incumbent bias, also a vote against (2+ / 0-)

      the recall wasn't necessarily a vote for Walker.

      "[R]ather high-minded, if not a bit self-referential"--The Washington Post.

      by Geekesque on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 07:02:30 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Wisconsin issues (8+ / 0-)

    At the very least, the electorate that turned out yesterday supported Walker's anti-union measures, by roughly the same margin that they voted for him.

    This might give other Republican governors the green light to go hard after unions (as if they haven't already) but other than that, I can't really see any ramifications this election has south of Kenosha.

    By the way, all that money the Kochs dumped into Wisconsin this time around didn't seem to have much effect.  Walker won by basically the same margin the polls said he would before the giant cash dump.

    28, white male, TX-26 (current), TN-09 (born), TN-08 (where parents live now)

    by TDDVandy on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 06:03:55 AM PDT

  •  Did we LOSE anything? (50+ / 0-)

    We just overthrew Fitzwalkerstan. The Wisconsin senate is now blue. Fitzgerald is now the minority leader. Walker lost his dictatorship.

    I don't see how we lost at all. This wasn't just a tactical victory or a moral victory, this was an actual victory.

    Yeah, Barret's not the governor, but that doesn't mean that we didn't win. Yes, we could have won bigger, but this was still a win.

    An Fhirinn an aghaidh an t'Saoghail. (The truth against the world.) Is treasa tuath na tighearna. (The common people are mightier than the lords.)

    by OllieGarkey on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 06:06:13 AM PDT

  •  Incumbants have more power (3+ / 0-)

    Another thing I picked up is it is very very difficult to unseat an incumbant especially one in midstream. What I am sensing is folks want to give obama a real chance on fixing this economy and booting him out midstream is not something that is particularly appealing to voters especially independents and its looking like the felt the same way with walker.  They say politics is local and apparently wisconsin employment is improving regardless if they give walker credit or not, they give this president credit for helping it. Also if you look at other states who unemployment rate is below the country's obama is winnning.   Every poll had barrett losing. From 3 points all the way to 9 and those same polls have obama over 50% and beating romney handidly. And if you throw in the 500,000 voters who didn't vote in recall election, they will be back in the fall to vote in the presidential election.

  •  38% of union households supported Walker! (12+ / 0-)

    Koch Industries, Inc: Quilted Northern, Angel Soft, Brawny, Sparkle, Soft 'n Gentle, Mardi Gras, Vanity Fair, Dixie

    by ChiTownDenny on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 06:09:02 AM PDT

    •  Not really a surprise (0+ / 0-)

      For one thing, that's 38% of union household members.  So that's counting the (quite possibly Republican) spouses and, in some cases, children of union members.

      I would be surprised if that many actual union members voted for Walker (particularly given the drop in public employee union membership since 2011) but not that a bunch of people married to union members did.

      28, white male, TX-26 (current), TN-09 (born), TN-08 (where parents live now)

      by TDDVandy on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 06:18:16 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Talk about an awkward drive to the polls (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        TDDVandy, charliestl

        (-2.38, -3.28) Independent thinker

        by TrueBlueDem on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 06:46:28 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  You would be shocked to know how many active (6+ / 0-)

        union members are voting republican now.  My husband is union and talks about it all the time.  He says in the day you would never dream of saying out loud that you were even thinking of voting republican, and all union members were democrat...it was just a known fact.  Now, he says,  it is commonplace to hear people on the job talking about it and he knows a lot of his coworkers who are now republican and the other day he even heard Rush playing on a radio on a union job that was being listen to by union hands as they worked. He was livid!  My husband is a very conservative democrat himself...he even believes some things that are straight on republican talking points....but on union issues he is as democrat as they come and is the main reason he has never crossed over.

        •  Well (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Superpole, Aquarius40, Bailey2001

          Union members voting Republican seems about as stupid as billionaires voting Democratic. :)

          28, white male, TX-26 (current), TN-09 (born), TN-08 (where parents live now)

          by TDDVandy on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 07:33:19 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Thanks for Confirming What (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          MrJersey, George Hier

          I've been talking about, i.e. union members drinking the Kool-Aid and being dumb enough to support anti-union GOP.

          Losing the Labor vote is another major fail of the democratic party.

          "I don't feel the change yet". Velma Hart

          by Superpole on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 08:21:16 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Do those Union members hate racial minorities more (0+ / 0-)

            than they like the decent wages and benefits that accrue from union membership?

            And it feels like I'm livin'in the wasteland of the free ~ Iris DeMent, 1996

            by MrJersey on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 09:47:17 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Well not sure if that is the total issue. Since (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Superpole, MrJersey

              we are black ourselves and some of those I am speaking of are also minorities of differing races and heritage I don't it is the main reason why.  BUT.....in some people, sure it's an issue; at least I too believe it is...just not the main issue.  I personally think it is way more a greed issue.  Americans are getting more and more greedy, even if they really are middle class, even barely.  If they have anything....you better not tell them they might have to give up one red cent of it to anyone.  The think the big bad government is going to take everything they have and give it all to the "bums" who do nothing.  No thought at all to people who are ill or disadvantaged, or an immigrant or a single or abused woman or a minority who has never been given a break ever or any other thousands of reasons someone might need a little government help.  It's really disgusting IMO.  My own husband falls in this category.  He likes the democrats for their labor stance and racial issues but don't get him started on taxes or social programs.  

            •  Keep in Mind They Are (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              MrJersey, George Hier

              not thinking rationally.

              Some union members bitch about union dues.. apparently forgetting the old adage: "you have to spend money in order to make money".

              Let's see if these whiners are OK with $12.00 an hour and little to no benefits-- that is where they are headed.

              "I don't feel the change yet". Velma Hart

              by Superpole on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 12:29:05 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  There is no where for public unions to run (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      calwatch

      This proves that public sector unions, and particularly the teachers' unions, have become public enemy number one.  

      Make no mistake about it, people didn't turnout and support Scott Walker yesterday.  They turned out to support his agenda.  I know the kids didn't come out to play, but they almost never do unless BHO is on the ballot (and watch how that turnout drops this election cycle), and I know that a lot of people think recalls are bad policy (but I'm guessing many who thought that just stayed home).  

      But,...I'll bet that 80+% of the voters who voted for Walker yesterday think teachers unions have it too good, and can afford a little trimming.  Maybe 100%.  I know a lot of union members here in western PA.  Some still work in the steel industry.  Some are cops, one's a teamster.  Some are even public employees (municipal or county).  They all dispise the teachers' unions.

      if we take only three things from yesterday, it's these:

      1.  Money and the media it can buy, can overwhelm anger and boots on the ground in local elections.

      2.  If you make an election very personal (i.e. US vesus THEM), the other side will unite behind somebody they only marginally like, because "they're coming after OUR guy".  Worked for Bush in 2004, as well.

      3.  Nobody (at least not enough people to matter) likes public sector unions.

  •  Overplaying* maybe? Great learning points (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Geekesque

    laid out, though.

  •  Wisconsin law favors someone being recalled (13+ / 0-)

    by doing away with any campaign donation limits while the challenger must abide by a maximum $10K limit

    "I'm sculpting now. Landscapes mostly." ~ Yogi Bear

    by eXtina on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 06:12:25 AM PDT

  •  Thanks, Markos. (21+ / 0-)

    Thanks for starting this place.  At times like this I appreciate it more than ever.  This is disappointing news, yet people here are still rational, just trying to figure it all out.  Processing a loss like this without this community would be so much harder.  I come here and tell myself--see, there are still a large number of intelligent concerned people in the country.

    "I don't want to blame anyone. I just want to know how lowering taxes on the rich creates jobs" --Informed citizen at Congressional town hall

    by Time Waits for no Woman on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 06:19:12 AM PDT

  •  Strange (9+ / 0-)

    I lived through the Grat Davis recall in California in 2003, and people seemed only too happy to throw out our governor over policy decisions.

    Of course, they did have an action movie super hero as their candidate.

  •  Hey, the summer election wasn't a (11+ / 0-)

    "strategic miscalculation."

    It was a strategic calculation by the Republicans. It was also a fact of the calendar. There had been discussion of initiating the recall to coincide with the 2012 fall elections, but there were some problems with that. So it was a timeline that we were stuck with.

    It isn't that hard for students to vote if they want to. Students are smart. Students have social networks. Students have support of their institutions to vote (my institution did a LOT to help students with this, although it could do more). Students (should) be able to figure that stuff out IF THEY WANT TO. Mostly, they seem not to want to.

    It is a frustration.

    •  Agreed about students (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      charliestl, Aquarius40

      College students are plenty capable of figuring out how to vote, and it is not at all hard to do. They are far from a disadvantaged demographic with little access to information. They are a weak link in the Democratic coalition by their own doing.

      (-2.38, -3.28) Independent thinker

      by TrueBlueDem on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 07:00:03 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I agree. (0+ / 0-)

        Young people didn't vote?  Couldn't stop texting, bleating, video-gaming, YouTubing, iPodding long enough to go vote in their own self interest?  

        Sad.  I expected more of young Badgers.

        If Liberals Hated America, We'd Vote Republican

        by QuarterHorseDem on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 08:45:43 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I said it last year (0+ / 0-)

      it was a huge mistake not to align this election with Obama's re-election.  We'll never know, but I can;t see how Walker survives with Obama on the ballot.  If Obama had been on the ballot yesterday, he'd have won comfortably.

  •  Young people simply haven't been convinced (14+ / 0-)

    that ANYONE has their backs. They feel, understandably so, that hey are ON THEIR OWN, either way. The fact is, once a generation suffers a poor job market in its formative years, it NEVER recovers. That's very likely to be true for the late Xers, the millenials and some of the Plurals (or Net generation). NOBODY is accounting for the political impact of this...there's simply an assumption out that they'll get passionate about Democrats because there's no option. There's an assumption that they will have to tow that line. No one is trying to deal with it from their perspective; they just assume anything but Right-wing, including Center-Right, is compelling, and it's not.

    The only reason that change is so hard is that the moderates on "our" side are Tories who support the aristocracy.

    by Words In Action on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 06:29:09 AM PDT

  •  I for one (0+ / 0-)

    am so very comforted with that exit poll (putting to the back of my mind that the exit polling by CNN also predicted a 50/50 split between Walker and Barrett).

    LOL

    Jedermann sein eigner Fussball!

    by Lochbihler on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 06:33:32 AM PDT

  •  Recall should not have happened (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mightymouse

    I too agree that unless there is an unethical scandal, recalls are tough to pull off. At first, I was mad that the Obama people and the DNC national leadership did nothing to help WI democrats, but I too think the local leadership should have waited patiently until Walker's term was finished.

    •  Err, there was (and is) (0+ / 0-)

      an Walker ethics scandal. Google Walkergate.

      You can tell Monopoly is an old game because there's a luxury tax and rich people can go to jail.

      by Simian on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 01:37:40 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Obviously there was no focus on this message (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Simian

        Maybe they should have focused on this a lot more. Many I know haven't even brought this up. The narrative was Walker vs the union.

        •  I don't get where the notion came from (0+ / 0-)

          that a recall is only for wrongdoing in office. I mean, a recall election is part of the electoral process, is it not? There's no requirement that it be for "high crimes and misdemeanors" like an impeachment, is there? So why isn't a recall seen as a way for the electorate to correct a mistake? Why do some people (10% if the polling is accurate) believe that there is some sort of "wrongdoing" requirement? I ask because you seem to at least lean that way, and I just don't get it.

          You can tell Monopoly is an old game because there's a luxury tax and rich people can go to jail.

          by Simian on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 04:53:01 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Cost would be prohibitive (0+ / 0-)

            Can you imagine if this is done every single time we don't like who got elected? The party had its chance when the election took place. Like it or not, this idiot earned the right to govern his term.  The Democratic party should have saved its money for releection time and then gotten rid of him then. Now they wasted a lot of money and that is money that could have been used when Walkers term is over.

  •  How can anyone (5+ / 0-)

    take seriously the pronouncements of someone named Reince Priebus? The name conjures up images of a spoiled prep school boy with a silver spoon in his mouth.
     

    "A lie is not the other side of a story; it's just a lie."

    by happy camper on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 06:39:02 AM PDT

  •  Public Employees got a whipping yesterday.. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mightymouse, According to Fish

    I support unions. I support collective bargaining. I do not support pensions for people retiring at age 50 with 70 to 90% of their last few years income for life. The contracts awarded to public employees over the years have become so lucrative that most of us in our late 50s that chose the private sector now look back and wish we had taken that low paying job as a fireman or cop way back in the late 70s. I have friends who retired at 52 from the probation department who made more money from his pension in the first three years after he retired than the total worth of my 401k after 30 years. I pay upwards of 15-20 grand a year in state and local taxes, this is not going down anytime soon. And I have friends who are making 60,70,80 and 100 grand or more a year for life because someone thought a fireman was a hero or that a cop's job is really dangerous. Sorry folks, Walker addressed something deep down that the left needs to tap or this is going to be a national issue in 2012. Unions are great but they sometimes go too far. We better get on the renegotiation track as a platform or we will end up supporting the back end of a horse that is running away.

    Do facts matter anymore?

    by Sinan on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 06:39:35 AM PDT

    •  Not public v. private; but pension v. 401K (12+ / 0-)

      It sounds like you  are concern trolling. First, the public sector unions made considerable concessions  — first to Jim Doyle and then to Walker.

      Secondly, you express both resentment and envy over public sector employees, who accept less pay(when factoring for education) but generally receive significantly better benefits than in the private sector.

      Ask yourself why public sector employees get better benefits. It's the economies of scale argument. The state for example can negotiate a very favorable rate for insurance for state employees who buy into a large insurance pool which is less likely to endure huge fluctuations both in terms of cost and what services are covered.

      OTOH, private sector business rarely have the ability to negotiate favorable insurance rates.. Yes, some do like Fortune 500 companies, but many, especially small businesses are literally at the mercy of their insurance company and they pay more per employee than large corporations often for inferior insurance.

      This is what you should be pissed at. IMO, everyone should be able to buy into the low cost high quality insurance plans available both to state employees and those of large corporations like McDonald's or Home Depot for example. There is something inherently wrong that businessman A who has 50 employees has to pay more for insurance than Corporation B which has 50K employees.

      Where are the insurance exchanges or pools to help struggling small businesses? Cue sound of crickets.

      •  The chances that the private sector (0+ / 0-)

        are going to adopt the benefits of the public sector are remote, improbable at best. You tell me why a retired County Sheriff is worth 200 grand for life after spending 30 years on the job. That job in the private sector does not include a gaurantee for life of 200 grand plus health benefits. You say I am envious. You are right. While I have to keep working until I reach 67 to get a measly 2-3 grand a month for SS, many of my friends are padding their income with overtime, getting idiotic certificates to get more pay as firemen and looking at retiring with 80 to 120 grand a year for friggin life! All the time, I pay upwards of 20-30 grand a year minimum in state and local taxes so my neighbor can become the world's best bondfisherman by age 57. Sorry, I am as liberal as you get but these contracts are a joke. Public sector jobs were not supposed to be this lucrative, that is why most of us boomers did not take them. But somewhere in the 90s, they got really good and the shit is hitting the fan about these contracts. I realize some of the workers in WI gave some dough back but the state is hurting and when that happens, its hard to sympathize with folks that have such sweet deals.

        Do facts matter anymore?

        by Sinan on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 07:10:21 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Yup (0+ / 0-)

          I also am as liberal as they come and I am outraged by the guaranteed and overly generous packages that some public employees are currently receiving.

          The packages promised to public employees in CA is one of the principal fiscal problems and needs to be addressed before it bankrupts the state permanently.

          •  Exactly (0+ / 0-)

            In live in Santa Barbara area and believe me, the retirement packages are insane. Jim Thomas retired as County Sheriff with 200 grand a year for life. Then he went back and got another pension doing some other job to get another pension plus the county hires him as a consultant. Its insane.

            Most city and county firemen make close to 100 grand a year. Upon retirement, we are talking 70-90 grand a year for life! This is insane. That job is not that important. At most we get one or two house fires a month in Santa Barbara and Goleta. The forest fires are national lands, they are handled by the hot shots and Forest Services. Why exactly do we need this many stations and this many firemen? To chase ambulances? Wheel old people out of retirement homes on gurneys? Don't get me started...

            Do facts matter anymore?

            by Sinan on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 08:15:31 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Same is true in San Jose (0+ / 0-)

              there is a retired police office serving in a political position and "double-dipping" as they say.

              When confronted, he just says "it's legal".

              Yeah, well let's do something to make it illegal and reform the pension system.

              Democrats who don't understand that this is an issue that desperately needs to be resolved are missing the big picture.

              •  Yep. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                According to Fish

                The problem is that these contracts were awarded back when the stock market looked like a perpetual wealth creation device. They actually believed that it would just go up forever making these funds holding pension dollars worth more and more over time. Then, they locked into a gauranteed benefit scheme with zero risk for the pensioners, unlimited risk for the tax payer. This is where they got sideways and the unions should have known better. Killing the goose that lays the egg is not a good long term prospect. In this regard, unions are guilty of the same thing as upper management...greed.

                Do facts matter anymore?

                by Sinan on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 10:11:46 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

    •  Income inequality (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      charliestl

      Projections from the 70s would have all of the middle class doing better.  Instead, the rich have gotten richer -- you know the facts.

      So, the miscreants have succeeded if they have us trying to punish our fellow middle-classers who have done well.

      That's how I see it.  However, I do appreciate the tone and frankness of your post.

      It should be easy to have $70,000 for life.  

    •  This is where the RW gets you. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      smartguy11, Aquarius40, wsexson

      It's easier to complain about how good the public sector workers have it instead of asking your boss why you don't have it so good, I guess.

      28, white male, TX-26 (current), TN-09 (born), TN-08 (where parents live now)

      by TDDVandy on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 07:12:15 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Sorry this is just spin (0+ / 0-)

        There is no reason why the public should be on the hook for providing some public sector workers 80 or 90% of their highest salary for life after only 20 or 30 years of service.

        I highly doubt that every employee could be given this guarantee because the economics of it just don't add up.

    •  You are exactly right. It is what people are (0+ / 0-)

      angry about and it should never happen.  If we keep defending this situation we will kill all unions.  No one should be retiring at 50 unless they are injured or independently wealthy, no one should be allowed to double dip and a pension should not  be calculated on the last 3 years salary(it encourages cheating).    

  •  Will Walker outperform Romney? (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    rabel, vcmvo2, madcitysailor

    It will be interesting if Wisconsinites are more dedicated in voting in the recall than in November.

    I have a number of theories about why Walker won and why he will outperform Romney.

    •Unlimited contributions to the recall as well as Citizen's United factors.

    • Protest/Recall fatigue. This has been going on for 15 straight months since Walker was sworn in.

    • Meh candidate 2X. Falk would have been better than Barrett.

    • Ratfucking dirty tricks, including robocalls and voter ID buffoonery.

    • The notion that elections have consequences and recall is rarely if ever appropriate even if you dislike the candidate.

    Maybe the win will make GOPers and Romney too cocky and make them spend lots of money to try to win Wisconsin, which is something they will not do in November.

  •  Of those who voted in 2010, Barrett was down 47-34 (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Geekesque, Supavash, Superpole

    ...which suggests they did a poor job at retaining voters from 2 years ago, (or that the Walker campaign did a much better job at it; both statements could be true) but tried to make up for with new voters. The edge there wasn't near enough (53-45, Barrett) to make up for those lost voters.

  •  51-44 (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    satrap

    before all the Koch Brothers and their ilk start spending like mad to inundate people with ads. 51-44 before any effects of the Euro crisis hit. Talking like 51-44 is a big deal at this stage of the game is folly. Oh and what makes you think the youth vote will be stronger for Obama this time around than the last?

    "I wish I could tell you, in the midst of all of this, that President Obama was waging the kind of fight against these draconian Republican proposals that the American people would like to see. He is not." -- Senator Bernie Sanders

    by Sagebrush Bob on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 06:42:00 AM PDT

    •  not just youth vote (0+ / 0-)

      Your going to see a surge in the minority vote as well in Nov. I don't know how much they showed up in the recall but I guarantee black and Latino voters will have a stronger showing in the fall. I say that cushion is still pretty strong, even if only half the youths who didn't vote in the recall vote in the fall. There will be a lot more people voting in the fall. Also, I really don't think that super pac ads will have much of an effect on people who have already made up their mind. He's been in office for 3 years, you either like him or you don't.

    •  Funny, but the Marquette Poll (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      calwatch

      which everybody cursed as inaccurate and the devil's work, predicted,...wait for it,...Walker 53-Barrett 46.

      A seven point win.

      All the other public polls had Walker at or around 50-53%.  Sounds like Barrett's "internals" were pure deception, also know as a crock of sh*t.  

      Reinforces my belief that if everyone is telling you one thing, and you dispute it,...well, the world's not crazy.

  •  Thanks Kos for the stats... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Supavash

    ...it always helps to "know" some of the (why) when things go upside-down on you when going in I thought WI had a even chance to get rid of this flamer.  As far as your comment about us learning a lesson not to hold an election in summer-break...that was completely in Walker's control and I  think most of us knew it was going to make a difference. Time to retool for November...after we cry in our beer a little longer.

    Our nations quality of life is based on the rightousness of its people.

    by kalihikane on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 06:43:58 AM PDT

  •  WI voters =/= CA voters when it comes to recalls (5+ / 0-)

    Obviously, CA voters thought back in 2002 that a recall to get rid of Grey Davis was justified even though nobody was accusing him of misconduct (only of incompetence and inaction).

    •  WI voters =/= CA voters regarding incumbents (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      calwatch

      While both states have high reelection rates, Wisconsin manages to have high reelection rates in purple districts. We've also got very little enthusiasm for term limits, which is why this fall my state senator will almost certainly be reelected to a 14th 4-year term.

      Male, 21, -4.75/-6.92, born and raised TN-05, now WI-02, remorseless supporter of Walker's recall. Pocan for Congress and Baldwin for Senate!

      by fearlessfred14 on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 08:31:13 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  there is a huge IF in that analysis (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Aquarius40

    IF Obama gets out the youth vote again this time in the same degree, he has a comfortable lead.

  •  I'm still wondering about the exit polling... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    OleHippieChick, blueoldlady, Simian

    The exit polling was showing a dead heat... the results were an 8-9 point spread.... What happened here? Do people think that the Repubs were above stealing yet another election?

  •  Thanks for a positive message. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    doroma

    It won't help to become discouraged.

  •  "only appropriate for official misconduct"! Even (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    OleHippieChick, TDDVandy

    in the view of the John Doe case, people felt that there was no case for official misconduct? Well, maybe the fix is in and he will be "exonerated" in that his subordinates will pay the price while he continues to do the Koch's bidding.

    "The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. Now do you begin to understand me?" ~Orwell, "1984"

    by Lily O Lady on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 06:47:12 AM PDT

  •  In my dream.... (0+ / 0-)

    The Kochs, our Corporate Overlords, will TELL their boy Romney to pick Snotty Walker as his VP.  And they'll tell Snotty to go for it.  And Mitt and Snotty will do as they're told, of course.

    That's as far as my dream goes today.

    -QV-

    I came to teach. I stayed to learn.

    by QuoVadis on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 06:47:13 AM PDT

  •  I wouldn't put too much weight in the exit polls (6+ / 0-)

    For the exit polls that had Obama up over Walker 51-44, are these the same exit polls that were showing the race as a dead heat (when Walker ended up winning by 7 points).  

    I think Obama will win Wisconsin but I think it will be very close.  I was thinking a lot about this election and its consequences last night.  This is one of the first elections in the post Citizens United world and may be a harbinger of what is to come in November.

    We have to remember that in 2008 the Obama campaign was able to significantly outspend McCain.  That isn't going to happen this year.  This election will be a nailbiter and Romney can easily pull this off with the hundreds of million in super pac advertising he will have at his back.

    •  I agree (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Cream City, Aquarius40

      nothing should be taken for granted. How can we trust those numbers any more than the exit poll numbers they gave for Walker/Barrett? Personally, I think a few people were lying about their seeming support of Obama.

      This is one of the first elections in the post Citizens United world and may be a harbinger of what is to come in November.
      We really can't gauge what will happen in November based on any of our usual conventional wisdom...it's a new ballgame.

      "In the depth of winter I finally learned that there was in me an invincible summer."- Albert Camus

      by valadon on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 07:14:58 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  There may have been "Midwestern nice" (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        valadon

        in that exit poll re Obama, yes.  And polling fatigue here.  I was called for several polls in recent weeks, and the questions about anything beyond the state came at the end, seemed quite unrelated to the recall, etc.  I just said or pushed anything by then.

        Or I had fun claiming to be a 19-year-old white male for Ron Paul.

        "Let all the dreamers wake the nation." -- Carly Simon

        by Cream City on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 07:38:08 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  maybe (0+ / 0-)

        A few but not enough to make a difference. What would their incentive be for lying? People that are really mad at Obama would want to send a statement that they are not gonna vote for me. You can't deny Obama has a lead in the state. Do I think he will win by the same margin in 2008? No but I don't think it will be close either. He will probably win by 8-10 points. The Nov electorate will be totally different and not conducive for the gop.

        •  I was thinking (0+ / 0-)

          along the line of devious robo calls...just saying I wouldn't put it past the Reps to instruct people to say they support Obama. They certainly know about exit polls. ;)

          "In the depth of winter I finally learned that there was in me an invincible summer."- Albert Camus

          by valadon on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 08:05:19 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  No (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      vcmvo2, Supavash

      The crosstabs in the exit polls are adjusted as well.  The "initial" exit polls where the race was a dead heat had 53% of the voters supporting Obama.

      28, white male, TX-26 (current), TN-09 (born), TN-08 (where parents live now)

      by TDDVandy on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 07:24:03 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Has anyone calibrated that 51-44 to the... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    munseym, mconvente, Simian

    ..actual votes cast?

    The exit poll also had the recall rate at 50/50.

    If we correct the 51-44 to the votes cast, does President Obama even have a lead?

    Learn about Centrist Economics, learn about Robert Rubin's Hamilton Project. http://www1.hamiltonproject.org/es/hamilton/hamilton_hp.htm

    by PatriciaVa on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 06:47:40 AM PDT

  •  I'm not sure Obama's strategy (0+ / 0-)

    is going to get people to go out on a limb for him - especially in Wisconsin.

    The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only legitimate object of good government. - Thomas Jefferson

    by ctexrep on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 06:47:44 AM PDT

  •  did they exit-poll the US Senate race? (0+ / 0-)

    Baldwin vs ??

    Obama in WI is not the only game in town.

    An ambulance can only go so fast - Neil Young

    by mightymouse on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 06:49:21 AM PDT

  •  Dems and unions got rolled (0+ / 0-)

    They stunk it up, big time.  No excuses, no sugar-coating, no bright spots.  They're not at all ready for prime time.

    From Neocon to sane- thanks to Obama- and Kos.

    by satrap on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 06:54:47 AM PDT

  •  We lost. And we will continue losing (12+ / 0-)

    until the Democratic Party embraces its base and articulates a clear vision of what it believes.

    Being the Not Republicans just doesn't cut it anymore. And until we focus on getting better Democrats, we'll get stuck with the ones that punted Wisconsin.

    Because this community is worth staying and fighting for.

    by Great Lakes Liberal on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 06:54:48 AM PDT

  •  At the end of the day (3+ / 0-)

    Yesterday comes down to basically 5 things:

    1)  Many voters don't agree with recalls for anything short of verified criminal activity, and a few maybe not even then -- even if the voters in question very much ideologically disagree with the incumbent.  Those people stay home or even vote for the incumbent being recalled. Given that, you'd need to have massive support for it -- support that would almost definitely have to be fairly broadly bipartisan in scope in order to overcome that factor.

    2) Summer elections suck for getting the younger crowd to the polls.  It's "off-season", people are busy with other things on their mind, students are out of college and scattered across the landscape more focussed on landing a summer job to pay their bills or looking to land that post-graduation position.

    3) Money talks, and when a terrible candidate can outspend his opponent on the order of 10:1, it impacts people's perceptions.

    4) People have short memories/Time heals all wounds.  If the recall was held in the weeks after Walker went after the unions, he might've lost.  There is enough time and space between the actions that sparked the recalls and the election itself that people's passions over it cooled.  It also gave #3 time to have it's effect on people's perceptions.

    5)  When you throw a mediocre opponent into the mix given #1-4, you shouldn't be too surprised if you lose.

    •  Excuses, excuses. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Cardinal96

      Republicans are confident, aggressive, and smart.  Democrats are tentative, self-doubting, and smart.  

      Who looks like the long-term winner to you?

      From Neocon to sane- thanks to Obama- and Kos.

      by satrap on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 06:56:38 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Facts are excuses? (0+ / 0-)

        When you skim about 60% of your voters off the top because they don't agree with recalls in the first place, it's hard to win an election.

        There's a reason recalls are insanely difficult to pull off.  Recalling Walker was always a long shot from Day 1 because of that, the mere fact a recall election even took place was a long shot itself and the fact that any sitting legislators got successfully recalled, let alone multiple ones, is frankly amazing.

      •  No. (0+ / 0-)

        This person is performing analysis, using critical thinking.

        I would suggest you evaluate your adjectives.  "Confident, aggressive and smart"?  More like arrogant, destructive, hostile, and deceitful.

        What do you value?

        Long term?  Calm, humane, compassionate, and intelligent policies that work for the entire population will win out.  It may take a while, but I do believe in the better qualities of the human race.

        What I hope we avoid is the dystopia that Rethugs are trying to drive us through.

      •  Democrats are smart? (0+ / 0-)

        Uhhhhhh...

        "I don't feel the change yet". Velma Hart

        by Superpole on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 08:28:11 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I was so disappointed, I wasn't going to (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    One bite at a time

    come here today.  But I wanted to know how that last senate seat went (looks like it's going our way) and saw your diary.  So, I'm glad I came in after all.

    Perhaps you're only telling me what I want to hear.  But at least it gives me some hope, even if only a little.

    I'm still terribly disappointed, but I'll fight on.

    btw, people sure didn't mind recalls in California, eh?

  •  You make some good (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    madcitysailor, vcmvo2, Cream City, indie17

    points, Kos...and I have no doubt that Republicans will become so full of themselves over this "victory" that they'll also make fools of themselves.

    I have a few thoughts on the whole idea of recalling public officials that I'd like to share. I am a strong believer in making principled political stands..compromise is not the only tool one has to move policy or ideas forward, and in fact, it is often necessary for most real progressive change...  something that is not always highly regarded by our current crop of politicians in D.C., but, I can't for the life of me understand voting for Walker as a "principled" stand against recall efforts, especially in light of the fact that the person they would support, might also be indicted on criminal charges in the very near future. I think in this case that that is a very short-sighted "principled" consideration, not to mention the impact that a successful recall could have had on the nation as a whole.

    I really think the people of Wisconsin had some legitimate grievances against Scott Walker that they felt required immediate attention, and I don't blame them for one moment for deciding to recall him. I really feel for them today because they did what we all say we should do when we face the corruption of public officials: namely, to stand up for what we believe is right...to stand on truly principled ground.

    "In the depth of winter I finally learned that there was in me an invincible summer."- Albert Camus

    by valadon on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 06:55:57 AM PDT

  •  13% of population votes 93% Democratic, yet (0+ / 0-)

    black vote does not guarantee victory for us. So not sure about the 10% who never support recall.

    "If the past sits in judgment on the present, the future will be lost." Winston Churchill

    by Kvetchnrelease on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 06:56:34 AM PDT

  •  Dust Settling?–NO–We’ll see how dirty it is. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Cream City, 88kathy

    While the GOP is outside, boastfully touting their so call victory.  Wisconsin's legal arm and the Feds are checking out this room and all its dirt. Welcome to the aftermath of corrupt politics.

    Good old John Doe is picking up good steam and the noose will soon tighten around some beady eye duffus who's big troubles are just ahead.

    Then there's pay back.  Scott owes some big time money its due.   Try that with opposition in the Senate.

    Illegal robo-calls.  That's going to hit Scott.  Those calls are going to be traced to someone and their affiliation with secret super PACs. Follow the money trail.  These call can cost some dollars to he guilty parties and prison time too.

    Scott's not a good multi-tasker.  

    Money and corruption will be exposed.  

    For me!?  Screw you Mayor Bloomberg get me that 32oz Coke and a large popcorn.  The "Downfall of Walker - GOP" has started and I'm, ready.

    I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death.

    by cobaltbay on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 06:57:22 AM PDT

  •  Until we end the corrupting influence of money (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mconvente

    ...this is a one-way trip that is only going to get worse.

    The rest of it is just details on the institutionalized corruption that is selling away our democracy.

    If an asteroid was hurtling toward Earth, Republicans would refuse to consider any plan that didn't include tax breaks for the rich.

    by Brix on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 06:58:22 AM PDT

  •  "...back to school, back to school..." (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Supavash, indie17, Aquarius40

    recall elections in June don't favor young people.  it's always about turnout, turnout, turnout, isn't it...
    but what a stacked deck it was!  money, redistricting, voter suppression, and that robo-call telling folks not to vote!  my gawd...

    that said, there was so much to focus on over this past few months!  wow.  
    and the recall'ers didn't ever get a one topic slogan to run with.   so, the recall became more about "any and ALL reasons" than about his "misconduct."

    for me, from out of state, i think basic democracy was at stake--and i'm so glad that they'll have a dem. st. senate majority.

    i still can't get over ALL the concessions that the unions AGREED to, and then lying Scottie W. wanted more:  to take away collective bargaining.  Rachel Maddow hammered on this last night.  She said it well.

    I also think that a viral replay of the famous phone call with Scottie W promising to Mr. Koch that he would bust the unions for him would have been a good reminder.  it happened a long time ago in the minds of the average voter. and it was clearly "misconduct,"  pure and simple.

    also, the provision that was slipped into the bill for the Koch's energy power grab :

    that a little-noticed section in the rest of the bill  (the part that will get passed once one side or the other relents on the union issue) allows Walker to  sell state owned power plants at pennies on the dollar.
    It bypasses the public utility commission oversight, specifying “no approval or certification of the public service commission is necessary”

    why people on the right think that collective bargaining for teachers is worse than plans to PROFIT off little childrens' test scores, i'll never know...

    by stagemom on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 06:58:33 AM PDT

  •  I guess I'm surprised that this is surprising (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    vcmvo2

    Many people fundamentally disagree with the idea of recalls.  You have to first sell the idea that a recall is justified before you can sell your candidate, and that case was not made convincingly.  

    Frankly, I don't think anyone can draw the conclusion that Democrats are "doomed" in a post-Citizens United world from this election.  Pre- or post-, the fact is that this was an election with very unique circumstances, in which a large percentage of the electorate was instinctively opposed to the Democratic candidate, no matter how much they agreed with his platform.  It doesn't really tell us anything about November.

    The pleasure of hating...eats into the heart of religion...[and] makes patriotism an excuse for carrying fire, pestilence, and famine into other lands. - W. Hazlitt

    by rfahey22 on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 06:58:58 AM PDT

  •  Let me get this straight --we lost on principle? (0+ / 0-)

    I don't live there, so I'm unfamiliar with the media campaign Wisconsin residents were exposed to. It's just that I never heard the argument --that recalls are serious business and should only be a last resort in cases of official misconduct.

    It just doesn't smell right to me.

    GOP = Greedy One Percent

    by Palafox on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 07:00:08 AM PDT

    •  That is correct (0+ / 0-)

      I'm from Wisconsin, and many people did not like the idea of a recall in the first place, even though they were not high on Walker.

      The pleasure of hating...eats into the heart of religion...[and] makes patriotism an excuse for carrying fire, pestilence, and famine into other lands. - W. Hazlitt

      by rfahey22 on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 07:06:15 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Our largest newspaper endorsed Walker (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Cream City

      on that one argument: Recalls should only be used for misconduct in office. Never mind that our Constitution doesn't say that.

      Wisconsin, reclaiming its State motto: Forward!

      by One bite at a time on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 07:10:39 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  There Is Only ONE Reason Why Walker Won (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Palafox, Cream City, Vicky, Simian, swansong50

    and it has nothing to do with the 18-29 year old voters - who outperformed their 2010 turnout (16% - 15%) - and it has everything to do with who it is that votes RepubliKlan:

     Whites - Walker 57%, Barrett 43%
      Blacks  - Walker  4%, Barrett 94%
    This constant comparison of the 2010 off-year election to the historic 2008 presidential election really needs to end. It's like comparing apples to orangutans. I would compare last nite's WI recall to 2010, or 2006 even.
    And in 2010, Walker won 55% of the White vote, and Barrett won 87% of the Black vote. Obviously, both improved their numbers with their respective bases, but as Whites constitute 90% of WI population, this improvement benefited Walker more than it did Barrett.

    So all that Citizens United $$$ that some believe is primarily responsible for Walker's win, didn't seem to have much effect on Barrett's base. Actually, it appears to have had a negative effect on Barrett's base. Unfortunately, it appears to have had a positive effect on Walker's base. Also.

    So I guess the real question is "Why are Whites so easily misled by $$$ to vote against their own best interest?"

    I am not now, nor have I ever been, a member of the Republican Party.

    by OnlyWords on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 07:00:09 AM PDT

  •  Most clear-headed analysis thus far. (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    satrap, doroma, TDDVandy, Supavash, vcmvo2

    People like to make more of this kind of election than is merited.  There just was never a groundswell of support for a recall beyond the Democratic base.

    "[R]ather high-minded, if not a bit self-referential"--The Washington Post.

    by Geekesque on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 07:00:25 AM PDT

  •  It's not being 'outplayed.' (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    satrap

    The Republicans are looking to create a narrative that will grant them momentum from this victory, which is what it was, despite the many declarations of victory on our side here, today.

    They're extraordinarily good at this, and selling their effort as futile won't help us.

    The victorious strategist only seeks battle after the victory has been won, whereas he who is destined to defeat first fights and afterwards looks for victory.

    by Pacifist on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 07:03:19 AM PDT

    •  i dont think (0+ / 0-)

      theres much of a narrative though. The msm is also starting to come around and say it doesn't really have an effect in Nov. Before they were talking about all kinds of implications about Nov based on the recall but that has significantly stopped. Sure the gop will try and compete in Wisconsin but its going to be futile so they can go ahead and waste money there.

  •  The exit polls were wrong (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mconvente, Cream City

    They said that the governor's race was close.  It wasn't.  They were about 7 points off.  I wouldn't get too excited by the same poll predicting a 7 point Obama win.

    •  Exit polls do not exist to "predict" a winner, (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      doroma, vcmvo2, Supavash, calwatch

      or even the margin.  They exist to learn the composition of the electorate and what they were thinking about.  Responsible exit pollster will be normalizing the results to reflect voting patterns.  That way, one can understand the demographics of the electorate.

      The press and the public misuse exit polls.  Using them as a predictor of the final results is methodologically unsound.  Their proper use is much subtler.

      Ultimately, the only thing that matters with respect to preserving choice is who will be nominating the next Supreme Court Justices.

      by Its the Supreme Court Stupid on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 07:13:55 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  You're overlooking something here. (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    stagemom, Cream City, indie17, Vicky

    One of the major memes pushed by RW talkers especially Sykes on WTMJ was that recalls were only meant for cases of misconduct.  It worked.  They got their message through and we lost because they have the power and money to sell their message.

  •  Would it be fair to say young people... (0+ / 0-)

    ...have cell phones, and polling was on land lines?

  •  People didn't like the recall coz o ads against it (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Vicky

    An early independant ad buy blasted the recall. The GOP used money and early action to define the terms in this election. All of the terms.

    -this space for rent-

    by EsnRedshirt on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 07:11:22 AM PDT

  •  If you believe that (0+ / 0-)

    white-washed-over-multiple-times exit poll, then the only thing I can say is "good luck"!

  •  GOP using ED talking Points! (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TDDVandy, valadon
    SCHULTZ: “I think Wisconsin is a microcosm of what’s taking place across the country. Whereas the tax breaks went to the corporations, and yet they try to balance the budget on the back of the butcher, the baker, the candlestick maker, the teacher, the firefighters and those who can’t afford to give up anymore. It’s about protecting the future of workers in America.”
    This ED Schultz quote and video are up on the front page of red state.

    They are using it to support Scott Walker and the Republican cause nationwide now because as they point out, Ed says Wisconsin is a microcosm for how America feels right now. Voters there gave the Thugs a strong endorsement yesterday, so they are more than happy to trumpet him as believing the country feels the same way.

    What a sick world we live in that Ed Schultz, a defender of labor and working people, is being used in a video on Red State as evidence that the country feels the same way about government as the Thugs do.

    •  It's sick (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Palafox

      that a majority of Wisconsinites want to balance the budget on the back of the butcher, the baker, the candlestick maker, the teacher, the firefighters and those who can't afford to give up any more, in order to preserve tax breaks for the corporations.

      28, white male, TX-26 (current), TN-09 (born), TN-08 (where parents live now)

      by TDDVandy on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 07:18:29 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Frightening (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    88kathy

    I read on another site, not to be mentioned here that 46% of Americans believe in Creationism.  Then I see the results of this election.  I am amazed by how many stupid people there are in this country.  Even though students will come back to vote in November (you better hope they do), what does that matter whene there are so many who will consitently vote for sociopaths?

  •  The biggest fish is still in the pond, but I think (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Supavash

    the fact that the Senate was won back by Dems is going to help - at least some.

    I'd listen to how the GOP is going to spin this but I have to buy lots of Pepto Bismol first.  Those people make my stomach turn.

    And I do think Obama will take WI this November.  (Of course he will.)

    Is anybody listenin' ? - by Tori del Allen

    by Dumas EagerSeton on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 07:18:48 AM PDT

  •  Lessons learned. (0+ / 0-)

    Unions will always be outspent.

    As long as our system is set up where money is so important in elections it is stupid for unions to expect a political solution to problems.

    Where the the Wisconsin public workers messed up is by not all going out on strike.

    Having to hire babysitters and not getting their checks on time would have made the voters put pressure on Walker to preserve the status quo.

    Unfortunately the public employees forgot that the strike is the #1 most effective tool labor can use.

    Now they know.

  •  having the race in the summer (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    stagemom

    was not a "strategic" decision.  it was a reality we found ourselves in after a grassroots activist push to start the recall as early as possible, and Walker's continued delaying tactics to push the election into the summer.

    had the letter of the law been followed, we would have had the election about two months earlier

  •  How (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    johnbrown12962

    do we fight the lies and massive money when in many parts of the country all the voters get is rightie/repub slanted news?

    This is a bigger concern than a log of folks realize.

  •  Before Blaming Young Voters (0+ / 0-)

    for Not turning out, don't you think we should examine the effectiveness of New Voter Supression Laws???

    http://thinkprogress.org/...

  •  This recall had nothing in common with (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Supavash, Superpole

    the Gray Davis/Arnold Schwarzenegger debacle in California, where we had:

    1.  The Meh candidate of all time in Davis.  Made Barrett look like Mr. Charisma.

    2.  In Ah-nuld, a star who could say pretty much anything he liked.  The media just focused on his stardom.  

    3.  One issue, the new car tax, that galvanized people against Davis.  Simple to understand, and hit people in their pocketbooks.   (Of course Ah-nuld reinstituted it later,  when the state ran out of money.)

    4.  A phalanx of young white voters who showed up to vote for Ah-nuld, never to be seen again at the polls.  I stood in line at my local polling place and listened to them.  They weren't pissed at Davis, they LOVED voting for a star.  

    Every recall is different, and the results don't necessarily translate into anything but a unique event.  Ah-nuld's popularity (which dropped off the cliff, over time) never translated into anything for the GOP in California.  Our state GOP is just as moribund as before.  Obama won easily here in 2008, and he'll win easily in November.  

    In politics, It's all about long-term organizing, just like it's always been.  

    I can't understand why people are frightened of new ideas. I'm frightened of the old ones. (John Cage)

    by dotalbon on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 07:38:00 AM PDT

  •  Wisconsin Brain Death Trip (0+ / 0-)

    Mike Flannigan weighs in in his usually merciless way the Wisconsin Recall election in "Wisconsin Brain Death Trip."

    JP
    http://welcomebacktopottersville.blogspot.com/

    Defending bad taste and liberalism since 2005.

    by jurassicpork on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 07:42:04 AM PDT

  •  "Second of all, young people didn't turn out." (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Superpole

    And you were expecting something different?

    "The next time everyone will pay for it equally, and there won't be any more Chosen Nations, or any Others. Poor bastards all." ~The Boomer Bible

    by just another vet on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 07:52:44 AM PDT

  •  I don't buy 'voter discontent with recall' (0+ / 0-)

    Tell that to Gray Davis

    •  This is not California (0+ / 0-)

      I'm not going to stereotype CA, having never lived there, but Wisconsin is pretty old-fashioned about politics, especially in rural areas. I could certainly see people thinking that Walker was elected for four years and should serve his term.

      Male, 21, -4.75/-6.92, born and raised TN-05, now WI-02, remorseless supporter of Walker's recall. Pocan for Congress and Baldwin for Senate!

      by fearlessfred14 on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 08:45:06 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Turnout was near 58% (0+ / 0-)

    Not sure where the 65% number came from yesterday but apparently its was wrong.

    http://gazettextra.com/...

    Barrett failed to motivate the voters. the lack of youth voters was devastating. if the democratic party can't figure out how to get young voters to the polls, again, it means overall fail for their credibility.

    You didn't mention "independent" voters, which according to guest on Diane Rehm show right now- this broke 54/45 in favor of Walker. Huge- almost ten points.

    First, 60 percent of voters thought that recall elections were only appropriate for official misconduct
    ,

    Right, alot of people didn't want this recall. gets back to my earlier point: Walker should've been defeated in 2010.

    Regarding the impact of all of this in November-- seems like a weak point, since obv worker's rights are being stomped on bit by bit on the state level. and the democratic party isn't doing much about it other than talk.

    "I don't feel the change yet". Velma Hart

    by Superpole on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 08:03:04 AM PDT

  •  "losing the governor's race in Wisconsin sucked" (4+ / 0-)

    It stunned me, quite honestly, reading that 60% of the voters in that recall race voted to retain the only active Governor in the nation with a Legal Defense Fund (surely in anticipation of charges of some serious nature) because they didn't think a governor should be recalled for anything other than "official misconduct".

    What the fuck is wrong with the people in this country? The guy campaigns on old-standard GOP lines like "small government" and "balanced budgets" and he's not in office a month before his Administration, under his direct supervision, cuts a giant swath of "tax cuts" and other corporate welfare to the tune of $117 million - and then has the unmitigated gall to tell the people of the State that they need to get ready for budget cuts because they are $137 million in the red for the 2011-2012 period.

    Bait and switch on a gargantuan scale.

    He took office with an expected budget surplus, and turned that into a free-for-all hack-n-slash designed to do one thing - break the State's public employee Unions first, and then the rest of them. Giving the GOP a northern base to test out their goddamned Citizens United money-bombing.

    Guess what, it worked.

    And you still think that Obama is going to win in November?

    Let's say he does.

    Tell me then, what will the 2013-2015 US Congress accomplish, even if the Republicans don't win any new seats?

    Because that will look just like the 2010 US Congress - and what the fuck did THEY manage to do?

    Mostly nothing.

    Which the nation and people just cannot afford another two, not to mention four, more years of.

    Our highways and streets are full of holes.
    Our formerly-public hospitals are being closed and consolidated by private consortiums.
    Our bridges are falling.the.fuck.down (see: Tennessee & Twin-Cities).
    Our people are dying from preventable diseases due to lack of insurance and jobs.
    Our families are being crushed by consumer debt and lack of sufficient work for those able and willing to work.

    If this is the State of the Nation for much longer, then how much longer will our Nation endure?

    I'm heartsick this morning over this horrendous loss in Wisconsin. It's like I'm watching the end of anything hopeful or reasonable from our political system, and I'm not just angry anymore - I'm frightened.

    If tens of thousands of people spending more than two months out in the bloody Wisconsin winter snow AND thousands more working for nearly four months to gather petitions to get this recall election on was not enough to move rational and reasonable people to toss Scott Walker out of office, then what in the world is going to change anyone's mind about anything, going forward???

    I feel like doing a 'chicken little' imitation, running around my yard screaming and flailing about so that someone, somewhere will listen to me about the giant fracking pile of shit that is heading towards us all at about 200 mph...

    * * *
    I like paying taxes...with them, I buy Civilization
    -- SCOTUS Justice O.W. Holmes Jr.
    * * *
    "A Better World is Possible"
    -- #Occupy

    by Angie in WA State on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 08:19:06 AM PDT

  •  Good Post (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Supavash

    I consider the fact that a recall election actually got held to be something of a "win" for our side.  In the end, however, it seems that mere policy differences weren't enough to convince enough people to vote him out.  I have mixed feelings about recall elections myself.  Had I lived in Wisconsin, I'd probably have voted to recall Walker because I don't like what I've heard of the guy but I honestly didn't think that this had a high probability of success given the aforementioned circumstances.  I'm buoyed, however, by the fact that the Dems won back the State Senate and that President Obama is looking good for November so far against Mitt Romney.  Hopefully, the unions and other progressives and Democrats can regroup for November to re-elect President Obama, keep Kohl's Senate seat blue, and elect more Dems to Congress and the State legislature.  Hopefully, we can humiliate the Republicans- whom appear to be misreading the results of the recall and think that Wisconsin might be more competitive for them than it actually is.  

  •  Salting "Recall Inappropriateness" (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Palafox, wsexson

    I would take the recall appropriateness poll numbers with a huge grain of salt; I suspect they represent rationalizations deriving from a deeper issue rather than representing some deep principle.  You could have gotten a majority of the House that impeached Clinton to say it was never appropriate to impeach except for serious misconduct; it's just that for the GOP, misconduct only rises to the serious level when the perpetrator is a political foe or has outlived his usefulness.


    My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right.—Carl Schurz
    Give 'em hell, Barry—Me

    by KingBolete on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 08:20:50 AM PDT

  •  I hate these "I hate Obama" diaries. (0+ / 0-)
  •  The Final Exit Polling Number For President (0+ / 0-)

    Obama was a 12 pt spread for President Obama.  The numbers quoted above are wrong.

    "Don't Let Them Catch You With Your Eyes Closed"

    by rssrai on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 08:26:37 AM PDT

  •  Public sector unions (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    NorthBronxDem, evangeline135

    Part of yesterday's problems is that the public sector unions have a horrible reputation.  And when they've allowed themselves to be pigeonholed into a losing hand in a race to the bottom, it shows the extent of their failure.

    Until the public sector unions realize they're part of a class struggle for a broad segment of American society as opposed to a contractual situation where they need see no farther than the ends of their own noses, they are going to go on losing any battle where the dominant focus is on their pay and benefits, and on the general pattern of local government spending more than 80 percent of all funds on labor costs.

    And the only way they're going to justify that is by a broad effort to support the improvement of pay and benefits for union and non-union private sector workers, as opposed to a narrow effort to hold on to what they have because they "deserve it."

  •  I wondered why they chose the summer for Walker's (0+ / 0-)

    recall.  I imagine they were thinking of stopping this nonsense and needed to take back the senate quickly.  Good job on that front.

    We owe Wisconsin a great deal in that they got us a real snapshot of the country moving into November's election.  Weigh the anti-recall voters and we have a mandate against the GOP.  I am much more confident in President Obama's reelection.  Not that I had any doubt.

    •  They chose it wisely (0+ / 0-)

      because by "they", I mean the Walker minons who tied up the certification process. If we had tried for November, we would have had it in January.

      Male, 21, -4.75/-6.92, born and raised TN-05, now WI-02, remorseless supporter of Walker's recall. Pocan for Congress and Baldwin for Senate!

      by fearlessfred14 on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 08:46:49 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Universities in Wisconsin ... (0+ / 0-)

    are not insession. On Nov, 8th - they will be in session. Rock The Vote needs to make sure they're all registered and havecorrect voter ID's!

  •  This was not really a CU election (0+ / 0-)

    If you look at the fundraising numbers, most of Scott Walker's fundraising and expenditures were done through his campaign rather than SuperPACS. He had a lot of donors around the country, and many of them donated sums of money that were only permissible as he was an incumbent subject to recall.

    Another thing that I have not seen mentioned because it seems to go against narrative is that positive ads can work. Barrett's campaign was heavily weighted towards negative ads, whereas Walker used lots of positive and contrast ads. With a closer analysis, there may be a lesson here.

    Male, 21, -4.75/-6.92, born and raised TN-05, now WI-02, remorseless supporter of Walker's recall. Pocan for Congress and Baldwin for Senate!

    by fearlessfred14 on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 08:55:48 AM PDT

  •  The real message from last night is that Citizens (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    johnbrown12962

    United will kill us in the fall.  How many people were swayed by the Walker camp ads that said recall elections will put the state into a perpetual swing of recalls?  Perhaps tens of thousands?  Also this was only the 3rd recall election of a governor, but the last 2 were successful.  The Koch brothers now know that their $$$ made the difference and will soon get ready to spread this all over the country.

  •  Just wondering (0+ / 0-)

    Why will all those young voters who stayed home yesterday turn out in November to vote for the President?  This was a canary in the coal mine election.  Any Democrat who doesn't believe that is asking to watch Mitty be sworn in next Jan. 20, probably with a Republican Congress in tow.

    "The test of our progress is not whether we add to the abundance of those who have much. It is whether we provide enough to those who have little. " --Franklin D. Roosevelt

    by jg6544 on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 09:44:48 AM PDT

  •  Exit Polls (0+ / 0-)

    So we're still citing left-leaning exit polls (they usually are) that showed Walker in a dead heat?  OK, go ahead...

  •  This result may end up being the best for November (0+ / 0-)

    Sometimes what can seem like a "bad" outcome actually turns out to be the best that could happen.  For example, what happens if Scott Walker is indicted between now and November?   If it's true that many voted for Scott Walker not so much because they supported him but more that they disagreed with the need for a recall, that tells me people were voting based on principle vs. ideology.  (I'm not making any judgements on the recall itself, just noting there is a big difference between voting FOR someone because you support them vs. voting for them because you felt they were wrongly recalled).   Those types of voters won't take it lightly if Walker is indicted.  I find it positive too that Obama has a 12 point spread over Romney according to the exit polls.  That has to mean that many who voted for Walker are planning on voting for Obama.   If Romney wants to campaign in Wisconsin now I say "go for it".  I don't see the types of voters I mention above being anything repelled by Romney's propensity to outright lie.  

    Also, I wonder how many of those newly registered voters were Democrats? (those who registered yesterday).  If the number of newly registered voters is largely Democrat based then that helps out in November too.

    •  John Doe investigation (0+ / 0-)
      For example, what happens if Scott Walker is indicted between now and November?
      I wonder about that myself, but not in the way most are thinking about here. It may be viewed as a politically motivated move by a DOJ under a Democratic administration, trying to get Walker any way they can. If he is indicted, it is unlikely that a trial and conviction would happen before November. That would certainly give Republicans ample opportunity to milk it to their advantage.
      •  Will depend on the evidence (0+ / 0-)

        Good point.  I guess a lot will depend on what sort of evidence is made public and where it comes from.  If Walker's own staff turn on him or if some of the evidence comes from Walker's own emails then it will be hard to blame an indictment on some sort of politically motivated plot.  However if the evidence available to the public is vague in regards to source, etc. then you could very well be correct in that some may see it a witch hunt.   I guess only time will tell.  

  •  people dont like recalls? welcome to the club! (0+ / 0-)

    scott walker is the governor that wisconsin deserves, not the governor they need.

    if people had bothered to turn out and vote and knock on doors two years ago, this wouldn't be a problem and we wouldn't have made walker a 2-time elected official.  the right does not take any elections off, why do we?

    let's get some brains, morans!

  •  The role of money (0+ / 0-)

    I think we may be overestimating the effect of money in this campaign.  I have checked and for a Republican in a non-presidential year.  The lowest victory margin is about 6%-7% roughly what Walker got.  Tommy Thompson won by huge margins pre megabuck and Tea Party days.
    Secondly, recalls are attempts to negate someones vote.  Therefore they are only sucecessful when there has been serious ethical issues.  The Democrats could present not much beyond pollicy issues.
    Voters vote for their issues not ours.   Tell me why a Republican should vote for Barrett?

  •  The problem is this (0+ / 0-)

    As I see it, those who will vote for Obama in November but voted for Walker yesterday.... these people ARE the problem. They're variously casting their ballots for the right/wrong reasons and for the right/wrong candidates.

    We can't survuve as a healthy pseudo-democracy much longer with a bunch of dumbasses like that voting. Chalk it up to CU, the braindead mass media, the Koch brothers or whatever else, but the fact of the matter is we cannot go on like this. People voting against their best interests is not healthy in the long run.

  •  You call that not sugarcoating the results? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Jon Says, rhauenstein

    This isn't just one lost election.  The enormous piles of money spent on Republican infrastructure in Wisconsin will continue to pay dividends for the Republicans.  Hell, they even managed to match our GOTV efforts.  And a Walker win greenlights reactionary extremism just as much as a Walker loss would have muted it.

    And relying on exit polls that put Obama ahead when those same polls were off by 8-9% in the voting actual result is just foolish. Either the polling was way off or the election was rigged--either way, the poll is no cause for complacency.

    You can tell Monopoly is an old game because there's a luxury tax and rich people can go to jail.

    by Simian on Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 01:50:38 PM PDT

  •  Polish that Turd (0+ / 0-)

    I can't disagree with the might KOS.  There are some good rationalizations about the recall results and most likely will bode well for November.

    HOWEVER -

    It does not change the fact that Walker and the PAC backers won.

    and it does highlight the real dangers of ennui and campaigning on the negatives of the opposition.

    The lack of critical turnout in the youth demographic can be laid directly on Obama and the DNC lack of interest and support in the preparation for the recall.

    This does NOT bode well for November.  Obama won in 2008 largely on massive turn out particularly with the younger voters.  He had the enthusiasm, the momentum, the hearts and minds.  The HOPE and CHANGE message was compelling.

    Now?  not so much.  Young voters are looking at high education debt with much less personal bankruptcy options,  extreme, Depression era levels of low job opportunity and politics as usual.

    Obama (and down ticket races) are faced with an enormous challenge to recapture that enthusiasm.  and it is even more critical in the face of unlimited PAC hate money.

    Walker owned the media in Wisconsin thanks to Koch and other invisible hands.  This WILL be the case in November.

    People have to have something more positive to get excited about.  Running based on not being as bad as the Rmoney is NOT going to be a winner.  

    Need alot more dramatic action, compelling positives, reasons to be a True Believer again.

    Otherwise - Obama 46% Rmoney 52%.

    Ugh

  •  Unfortunate about last night (0+ / 0-)

    for the first time I am pessimistic about Obama's reelection but I hope I'm wrong.He needs the midwest to win the election.Winning just the east coast and the west coast won't be enough.I can't figure out why people in the midwest would vote the same as those in the south.Thought midwesterners were more enlightened.A protestor on CNN said last night he thought this was the beginning of the end of our democracy if billionaires can pollute our airwaves and buy elections.I hope the voters will wake up before its not too late this November.I'm worried this 4 year effort by this artificial political movement to unseat our president will be successful.

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