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There's been a whole lot of crazy here lately. Wisconsin was a win. Sure. We took a Senate seat. Great. The President leads in the exit poll. Kick-ass.

Absolutely delusional.

On top of that, some magic about getting SuperPACS off the air and the end of the abortion debate.

But the problem is solved easily enough. Progressives just need to learn how to argue independents and conservatives.

The abortion diary is really what made this piece click for me. I mean, the end of the debate? Just like that? Crikey, I need to read this so I can learn the tricks. And what do I read? Progressive argument after progressive argument. I'm sure the piece worked great on all those progressives on the fence about the pro-choice movement. Really pushed some poll numbers there. We all know the Left is a hot-bed of anti-choice sentiment.

Oh, that's right. It's not. The abortion issue is a debate about values. Liberty vs. Life. If you lean toward liberty, you'll lean pro-choice. You lean toward life being the dominant value, you'll lean toward the anti-abortion stance. No Liberty argument you make will convince someone who is against abortion because they value the Life component.

So what is the point? Is it to feel morally superior, with our superior arguments? Or is it to make abortion safe, available and affordable? If you chose the latter, then you need some better arguments. Because even if you create a safe haven in the blue states, there's a lot of women that still need to be protected everywhere else that votes Republican.  

Abortion is here to stay. The only problems now are future and current restrictions wingnuts want to place on abortion from state to state. Which means the pro-choice side needs broader support.

So make an argument they can handle...

#1 The fetus is a life. You don't have to call it a baby. But stop making the "small amount of cells" argument. Last I checked, progressives don't dismiss science. I'm actually more comfortable hearing people say (tongue in cheek) that the fetus is a parasite. At least that statement is technically true.

#2 Focus on the part that makes this a women's issue... females are the ones that must take on all the responsibility with an unwanted pregnancy. The scales are already tipped against them.

#3 Other people that make mistakes are allowed to correct them. Even issues of life and death, criminal vehicular homicide, being a good example. Why then, in this case only, must the woman live out the mistake forever?

#4 God stuff. This one can get annoying, and that's coming from a believer. The "nation founded on Christian values" crowd... don't get me started. But I hold tight to separation of church and state. Most Christians forget about the differences between Catholics and Protestants, Methodists and Baptists... shit... Lutherans (Missouri Synod) and Lutherans (Wisconsin Synod). Remind them. Would you want Catholics telling you how to live? Baptists? Mormons? Didn't think so. That's why we have separation of church and state, so you can't use the Bible as an argument against abortion.

#5 Drop the snobbery. You don't want to have the discussion, you say? Anti-choicers can't wait to sidestep right around your self-righteousness and move forward with any change they feel like.

And guess what? They're winning.

I won't spend a lot of time with the SuperPAC idea, because it's a non-starter. Advertisers drop shows. Shows do not drop advertisers. It's their money. It's how they pay their workers, and more importantly, their corporate overlords. Elections are their Black Friday. A six month long Black Friday. And they won't even think about turning high-value political ads away. It's just not going to happen.

It's like telling a logger not to log, telling a teacher not to teach, telling a pornographer not to pornograph. Change the law if you want change. Anything else will just be annoying and dismissed.

And finally, Wisconsin. I don't have any remedies. I have no clue what happened on our end, or why. Wisconsin going Koch? Never. But it did. And I ain't going to bury my head in the sand about it. It was a loss. Concentrate on figuring out how to change it back and forget about The Message War that it was a win.

But yeah, I expected better. And all I've seen lately is a big plate of fail.

P.S. Fuck the FreedomWorks "Defund Planned Parenthood" ad that I've been seeing on this site. I know it's just Google, but Jesus...

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Comment Preferences

  •  Is coherence not (23+ / 0-)

    an issue for you?

    And re: your #1 in your idiotic abortion points:  mucous is also a collection of cells -- are we to argue about the preservation of kleenex with die hard pro-lifers?

    I have zero clue what the "abortion diary" is to which you are referencing.

    Vi er alle norske " My faith in the Constitution is whole; it is complete; it is total." Barbara Jordan, 1974

    by gchaucer2 on Sun Jun 10, 2012 at 05:46:11 PM PDT

    •  S/he's a "member of the msm" (11+ / 0-)

      so obviously not.

      Mitt Romney: the Etch-A-Sketch candidate in the era of YouTube

      by Cali Scribe on Sun Jun 10, 2012 at 05:50:44 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I think it's the one by Cherry the Tart (18+ / 0-)

      I have to agree that the title "Wherein I end the abortion debate" is more than a little over the top.  It's been on the rec list all day, and at the top for a while.  I read it, but didn't rec it because it's a nice rant but far from "ending" the abortion debate.  

      And I have to say that I agree about the "how to get SuperPac ads off TV" diary, too.  Media outlets hate regular political advertising because they have to charge below-market rates for it.  NFW they'd give up a steady stream of full-fare ads.

      Not destined to be popular, but I have to say I agree with much of this diary.

      •  Sarcasm (14+ / 0-)

        "Wherein I End The Abortion Debate" was not meant to literally end the abortion debate. The over-the-top title wasn't over the top, just Cherry's brand of humor.

        The problem with going with your gut as opposed to your head is that the former is so often full of shit. - Randy Chestnut

        by lotusmaglite on Sun Jun 10, 2012 at 06:02:01 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I understand. But it didn't work for me, and (7+ / 0-)

          apparently didn't work for this diarist either.

          We've got a fucking huge fight ahead of us on abortion.  I think the suggestions in this diary are sound.

          •  Sound? (12+ / 0-)

            The diarist takes a shit on progressives because they don't honor the "science" then can't even get the science right, saying fetus-as-parasite is "technically true". It isn't. If the diarist wants to be a douchebag, at least the diarist can be a douchebag who gets their facts straight.

            Then there's this big pile of fail:

            Oh, that's right. It's not. The abortion issue is a debate about values. Liberty vs. Life. If you lean toward liberty, you'll lean pro-choice. You lean toward life being the dominant value, you'll lean toward the anti-abortion stance.
            I guess it's all about liberty and life, not women and their own bodies. Anything so that the womenfolk don't get to decide. Here's an idea: maybe it's about the historically nonstop attempts by insecure, authoritarian, patriarchal assholes to control women. Or maybe it's a complex issue that is not served by the bi-chromatic spectrum of thought the diarist puts into their "sound" suggestions.

            Oh, and my favorite: "Drop the snobbery." Yeah, pipe down, wimmin. Because if you show emotion, that means your arguments have no merit. What's that? 2+2=4? Not with that attitude, missy. Well, it's either that, or maybe nobody seriously intended to say that the argument was over.

            These aren't "sound" suggestions. They are exactly what the diarist pretends to address: self-righteous finger wagging at people who are "absolutely delusional". (Not to mention being the the twenty-first or twenty-second humorless paragon of thin skin to completely miss the dark humor of Cherry's diary title. And no, it wasn't that it "didn't work" for the diarist; the diarist simply missed it. This entire nagfest of a diary is predicated on taking Cherry's title dead seriously.)

            Oh, and while I'm at it, a big kiss my ass to the diarist for saying that retaking the Wisconsin State Senate isn't a win, and those who think it is are delusional. I guess stopping Scott Walker from calling the special sessions he stated he'd call to illegally ram more of his paymasters' agenda through the rubber-stamp legislature he's used to enact all of his paymasters' agenda is abject failure.

            But if it's any consolation, it appears I'm not the only one who thinks this diary is an embarrassment for the diarist. Wait, I didn't mean "consolation". I meant "Lawl".

            The problem with going with your gut as opposed to your head is that the former is so often full of shit. - Randy Chestnut

            by lotusmaglite on Sun Jun 10, 2012 at 06:39:25 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I agree with you that retaking the senate in WI (9+ / 0-)

              was a big fucking deal.  I'm not 100% in agreement with the diarist, but I think they're making some good points (and some not so good).  For the most part the discussion in this comment thread - when it's actually discussion, and not just treating it as a flat out troll diary - is pretty good.  I think you've made some good points, and so have others.  

            •  Do you seriously think the anti-choice (4+ / 5-)

              people are anti-choice because they want the government controlling their body?

              Every woman that is against abortion is looking forward to getting knocked up and being forced to carry the pregnancy to term? That's their reasoning?

              You're the whole point I wrote this diary.

              And far too stupid to ever get it.

              •  You don't help make your case by insulting (14+ / 0-)

                the commenter.  lotusmaglite is not a stupid person, just someone who disagrees with you.  I actually agree with much of what you said, but didn't particularly like the way you said some of it.  We all have things we need to learn about making our case.

              •  Do you seriously just not get sarcasm at all? (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                wilderness voice, tardis10

                It's not just about control, it's not just about liberty, or life, or political maneuvering, or any one thing, or any of the false dichotomies presented about it. That was the point. The thing you call me stupid for? That was me emulating you.

                Good work, genius. You not only failed to understand the point, you picked out the one thing that sounded just like you and called me "too stupid to ever get it" based on it. You're just the gift that keeps on giving.

                You're the "whole point I wrote" that part.

                The problem with going with your gut as opposed to your head is that the former is so often full of shit. - Randy Chestnut

                by lotusmaglite on Sun Jun 10, 2012 at 07:09:08 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  If that's true (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  efraker, cdreid

                  Why do you think they believe what they believe?

                  Where does that 50% "pro-life" come from?

                  You don't think this is either/or.

                  I'm pretty sure the anti-abortion folks do.

                  And that you need to argue against their perspective, not for yours.

                  •  That's how you lose (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    wilderness voice, 3goldens, tardis10

                    ...an argument - accept the opposition's frame. Here, let's use that in an example:

                    So, in calling people who celebrate taking back the WI State Senate as a win "delusional", do you not have the intelligence to see why it's a win, or were you just being a douche?

                    See how you can't win, in that frame? See how no matter what you say, you've already admitted 1) it was a win, and 2) you're either stupid or a jerk? But by your suggestion, that is exactly what you must do in order to seriously engage with the opposition.

                    Their "either/or" is false. Accepting it is automatically losing that argument. Game over.

                    That's not how you win. It's not even how you stalemate.

                    The problem with going with your gut as opposed to your head is that the former is so often full of shit. - Randy Chestnut

                    by lotusmaglite on Sun Jun 10, 2012 at 07:39:23 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  The WI Recall loss is a fact. (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      efraker, cdreid

                      Because it was a loss. The goal of the recall was to recall Walker. It didn't happen. It's a loss.

                      The point I make with the abortion debate is that it is about values. Something subjective. Something that can't be proven. That's not an empirical fact.

                      Arguing from their value set is the only way you can change their minds. Everyone else that is inclined to make the choice argument already knows it, and already makes it. There really aren't a lot of undecideds left.

                      If pro-choice was polling +60%, I wouldn't bother, because it wouldn't matter.

                      But it's not. So you have to engage.

                      •  Your "facts" do not resemble our Earth facts (4+ / 0-)
                        Because it was a loss. The goal of the recall was to recall Walker. It didn't happen. It's a loss.
                        Thanks. Glad you're around to tell us all what our goals are. (Note: This is sarcasm. I'm not really grateful, and I'm not happy to have you define the recall movement's goals. I say this because you seem to have trouble seeing sarcasm. Hope that helps. [Note Note: That was also sarcasm. I don't care if it helps.])

                        No, the goal was not to recall Walker. That would have been just one means to the goal. The goal was to stop Scott Walker's paymasters' agenda from being implemented with such absurd ease. Scott Walker is nobody. He's an interchangeable pawn. It's the agenda that's important. That's what was halted when the Democrats picked up 3 seats and took back the Senate.

                        I won't even bother explaining the success of building movement infrastructure until the above simple point sinks in.

                        The point I make with the abortion debate is that it is about values.
                        And the next point you make is that we must accept their framework for the debate. Game over, we lose.

                        The problem with going with your gut as opposed to your head is that the former is so often full of shit. - Randy Chestnut

                        by lotusmaglite on Sun Jun 10, 2012 at 08:31:37 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Think of it this way. (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          efraker

                          You're attacking their argument.

                          You're dissecting the life argument, explaining why it is inferior to the choice argument.

                          And no. Walker was the target. The GOP Senators were being punished for supporting him, but Walker was the point.

                          I don't know if you want me to do a Kos Diary study to prove this or what, but it really should be evident.

                          •  All that needs to be said (3+ / 0-)
                            And no. Walker was the target. The GOP Senators were being punished for supporting him, but Walker was the point.
                            That's all that needs to be said. I'm glad you weren't there to plan strategy in Wisconsin, because we'd now have Scott Walker calling a special session to destroy what's left of Wisconsin, and his allies in the Senate would be free to make it happen.

                            It would be nice to live in your world, where killing Osama Bin Laden ended terrorism, convicting Bernie Madoff ended the predation on America by the greedy, and Ted Haggard's flameout reduced the religious right to rubble.

                            Unfortunately, we live in the real world, where lopping the figurehead off an encroaching movement does nothing but put a meaninglessly similar, interchangeable face in it's place. Because of that, we have to make sure we're working to stop the movement, not their PR guy.

                            To put it another way, there's a reason why the diary you slagged got 205 recs and yours got 5. You have no idea what you're talking about, and everyone knows it. Do yourself a favor and spend some time reading the work of people who know more than you do before writing any more diaries. Otherwise, you'll be stuck with the insulting, empty, clueless finger-wagging you've been doing.

                            Bored now.

                            The problem with going with your gut as opposed to your head is that the former is so often full of shit. - Randy Chestnut

                            by lotusmaglite on Sun Jun 10, 2012 at 11:12:20 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Goalpost now located in the parking lot (0+ / 0-)
                          •  Not really (5+ / 0-)

                            Commenter is merely refusing to let you decide where the goalposts are located.

                            I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
                            but I fear we will remain Democrats.

                            by twigg on Sun Jun 10, 2012 at 11:58:43 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

              •  I'm laying odds that you're a man n/t (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                lotusmaglite, Melanie in IA, JayRaye
                •  I'll lay odds (0+ / 1-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Hidden by:
                  JayRaye

                  you feel the need to stereotype people so you can hate them.

                  Want to talk to some VERY good people who are prolife? I even know some VERY good people who are right wingers. Who are conservative. But its easier to shut off the mind and soul and hate isnt it. Enjoy your sexism

                  A man is born as many men but dies as a single one.--Martin Heidegger

                  by cdreid on Mon Jun 11, 2012 at 05:43:42 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  No need here to accuse anyone of being a hater. (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    VetGrl

                    WE NEVER FORGET Our Labor Martyrs: a project to honor the men, women and children who lost their lives in Freedom's Cause. For May: Martyrs of the San Diego Free Speech Fight, Spring 1912.

                    by JayRaye on Mon Jun 11, 2012 at 03:41:34 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  But points for irony nevertheless (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      JayRaye

                      I actually chuckled a bit when I read the reply because two of the people I love most in this world -- I call them Mom and Dad -- are

                      VERY good people who are prolife ... VERY good people who are right wingers. Who are conservative.
                      •  And when I was in construction union, I (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        VetGrl

                        often pointed out the sexism of my union brothers. That did not mean I hated them.

                        But the worst sexists do love that "man hater" meme.

                        Anger does not equal hate. People tend to angry when their basic human rights are being stripped.

                        Naming them a "hater" is just another way of telling them to shut the fuck up and relinquish their rights quietly, like good little girls.

                        WE NEVER FORGET Our Labor Martyrs: a project to honor the men, women and children who lost their lives in Freedom's Cause. For May: Martyrs of the San Diego Free Speech Fight, Spring 1912.

                        by JayRaye on Mon Jun 11, 2012 at 04:50:00 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

              •  I think the point you are missing is that (7+ / 0-)

                the argument about abortion can never be won, in the conventional sense. As you point out, most of the serious antichoice folks have a deeply held belief that the fetus really is a "person," and that abortion really and truly represents murder. There is no possibility of compromise with such people. There is no way for an honest person who believes that abortion is murder to justify any compromise. No scientific or religious explanation will persuade these people.
                      What Cherry recognizes is that the only argument that will ultimately work for us is for the courts to hold that her rights of self-determination and privacy absolutely trump the squeamishness and the moral resolution of the antichoice people, no matter what. That was the point of her diary.

                -7.25, -6.26

                We are men of action; lies do not become us.

                by ER Doc on Sun Jun 10, 2012 at 07:47:09 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Actually, they want the government controlling (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Radiowalla, lotusmaglite

                others' bodies. They themselves would never have an abortion - or so they believe - so they don't worry about the government sticking its nose in their private parts. But for other folks, they're fine with it. Kinda like the homophobes who are straight - supposedly - so have no worry about the government controlling whom they would love. Come to think of it, scratch an anti-choicer and the odds are you'll find a homophobe. And vice versa.

                Just another faggity fag socialist fuckstick homosinner!

                by Ian S on Sun Jun 10, 2012 at 08:38:37 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  wilderness voice: (7+ / 0-)

                I understand why you dropped the HR. He called me stupid, and that's HR-worthy. However, he is in fact retaliating after I obliquely referred to him as a douchebag and explicitly told him to kiss my ass.

                Now, it's your HR; do with it as you like. But in the interest of fairness, were I in your shoes, I would do one of two things:

                1. Lift the HR against member of the msm and chalk it up to a heated exchange, or
                2. Drop one on my comment, as I threw out an ad-hom, too. I could say it was once-removed, simply saying "if", but that's a cowardly dodge.

                I will also message you, just in case you don't circle back for this.

                The problem with going with your gut as opposed to your head is that the former is so often full of shit. - Randy Chestnut

                by lotusmaglite on Sun Jun 10, 2012 at 08:38:49 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Uprating to counter HR. (0+ / 0-)

                Insult was clearly a response to first punch "douchebag" comment in preceding comment, yet wilderness voice did not put an HR in that comment.

                The bourgeoisie had better watch out for me, all throughout this so called nation. We don't want your filthy money, we don't need your innocent bloodshed, we just want to end your world. ~H.R.

                by chipmo on Mon Jun 11, 2012 at 06:07:09 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I agree that whomever lands the first punch (0+ / 0-)

                  is the guilty party. IMHO the diarist launched the first punches with his title  and the "delusional" comment.

                  The comment I did not HR did a great job of articulating and dissecting what was wrong with the diary. While calling the diarist a "douchebag" was rude, it was understandable, the way it was done was entertaining, and it was a response in character with the diarist's writing.  OTOH, the diarist calling the commenter stupid was not only an insult, it was also a mischaracterization in that the comment was anything but stupid.

              •  Personal insult. (3+ / 0-)

                One donut penalty. And shame on the upraters.

                Cogito, ergo Democrata.

                by Ahianne on Mon Jun 11, 2012 at 07:46:04 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

      •  You get credit for standing up to the crowd (6+ / 0-)

        I dislike denial whether it's about climate change or the Wisconsin results. There has been a bout of wishful thinking on the rec list since the Wisconsin disappointment.

        And Cherry's post wouldn't win over anyone who wasn't already on our side.

        The best thing I have seen this week was the handling of the troll by the wonderful lady from RI. She knows how to win people over.

        look for my eSci diary series Thursday evening.

        by FishOutofWater on Sun Jun 10, 2012 at 06:17:13 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Cherry Poptart was one of my fav dirty comix (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        lotusmaglite

        Damn I miss the 70s.

        Romney 2012 - Hey, what else are you gonna do? Vote for the BLACK GUY?

        by Fordmandalay on Sun Jun 10, 2012 at 07:09:35 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Also, re: "collection of cells" (12+ / 0-)

      I think we lose the argument if we equate a fetus with snot.  There is a moral dimension to this debate.

      Our side views a developing fetus as more than snot, too.  When we talk about various environmental issues, the effects of toxins on pregnant women and their fetus is something we care about.  When we talk about workers' rights, we talk about things that have an adverse affect on pregnant women.  When we talk about health care, especially women's health care, we focus a lot on pre-natal care.

      The question is, does a fetus have more rights than the woman who is carrying it?  That's where the left differs from the right.  The right insists, from the moment the sperm hits the target, that thing has rights that outweigh those of the mother (even if the sperm came from a rapist or her brother).  The right insists that a woman take responsibility for a broken condom, even if it means giving up a promising career and a chance to provide a great life for some children ten years down the line.  They insist that a terribly deformed child, who will experience pain their entire life and might never experience pleasure is still a "blessing from God" who must be brought to term.  Some elements of the right insist that a woman should be forced to carry a child even if it might kill her.

      We don't.

      Our argument is that a woman can make her own informed decision about what's right for her, her family and her future.  She knows that collection of cells better than anyone else on this planet; she can make the best decision on its fate.  We care about the unborn, but we continue to care about each human after they're born, too.

      (except Sarah Palin.  I really don't give a fuck about anything she does, ever, anywhere.)

      •  I'm not comparing (10+ / 0-)

        a fetus with snot -- I'm talking about the point of "living cells."

        I was born, raised Catholic and was in the convent.  I honestly do not have a moral dilemma about most abortions.  I do have ethical considerations about mandated abortions or selecting eye, hair color abortions, or late term for no other reason than "oops" abortions, but other than that -- I really don't have a need any longer to have a discussion with pro-lifers.  I've already had that battle.

        And I didn't read CherrytheTart's diary because I generally wouldn't want to read his/her stuff.

        I find it interesting (not including you) that many pro-lifers have or had no problem with sterilizing and/or lobotomizing those considered to be of lower IQ back in the day.

        Vi er alle norske " My faith in the Constitution is whole; it is complete; it is total." Barbara Jordan, 1974

        by gchaucer2 on Sun Jun 10, 2012 at 06:31:56 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  And many "pro-lifers" are fine with the death (14+ / 0-)

          penalty, declaring bullshit wars and "stand your ground".  They're fine with denying people healthcare, fine with gutting food safety regulations, fine with eliminating OSHA, fine with killing the whole fucking planet to get a few more barrels of oil.

          But choosing not to carry a five-week-old fetus to term?  You're a murderer.

          Fuck them.

          •  Because they all fit your stereotype (0+ / 0-)

            not that youd talk to "them".. because they are "other" and of course Evil. But you feel how they know so .... just dumb.

            A man is born as many men but dies as a single one.--Martin Heidegger

            by cdreid on Mon Jun 11, 2012 at 05:47:45 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Actually, I know and regularly talk to a lot of (0+ / 0-)

              them.  My tone is respectful, because I do see them a (mostly) good people at heart.  I just fundamentally disagree with them on a number of issues, and some of the internal inconsistencies drive me nuts - hence some ranting here when I'm among friends.  I don't see them as dumb or evil, but I do see that they're getting a lot of misinformation.

              And though I think we probably won't ever see eye-to-eye on abortion, they probably can be brought around to agree about healthcare for all, safety regulations and a few other issues.

              •  Youre tone is incredibly condescending (0+ / 0-)

                I doubt seriously you talk to any of these people in a serious way.

                Im in neither camp on abortion. We have been forced into an idiotic, destructive false dichotomy by extremist Nutjobs on both sides.

                I have friends and family who are very prolife and for very moral reasons. I have friend and family who are prochoice for very moral reasons. None of the above are evil or want "men to control womens bodies" or "to make abortion the new birth control " as the absolute batshit crazy extremes paint the other side.

                But there will continue to be pain and suffering because these nuts have their reactionary, emotion boners for this issue. They get off on it.

                If adults were in charge some abortion would be legal, some would be entirely illegal and defined as murder. All children would be cared for financially and otherwise and a woman wouldnt have to see a pregnancy as something to celebrate and dread at the same time. But we cant have that because the emotional masterbation and hate would have to end.

                A man is born as many men but dies as a single one.--Martin Heidegger

                by cdreid on Mon Jun 11, 2012 at 07:54:35 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  You don't know me, and you don't know my family. (0+ / 0-)

                  You're choosing the wrong person to lecture.  I'll let it go at that.

                  •  I didnt intend it to sound (0+ / 0-)

                    like i was lecturing the actual intent was to reflect how your post sounded. I do apologise if i came across wrong. I do that more than a bit.

                    It sounds like youre saying "we must correct our lessers in the correct way of thinking". We need more humans talking and fewer issue-extremists and politicians trying to manipulate people. Right now in america there are single parents living in hell, homeless children and families, people being pushed to abortions they dont want and pushed away from abortions they are desparate for so a tiny percentage of whackjobs whos only real concern  are their emotional needs can get their rocks off.

                    Wouldnt you rather live in a world where every kid had a healthy happy childhood, pregnancy wasnt something to be terrified of, where all legitimate abortion was legal , safe, inexpensive and all illegitimate abortion was outlawed?

                    A man is born as many men but dies as a single one.--Martin Heidegger

                    by cdreid on Mon Jun 11, 2012 at 08:17:42 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

      •  Oh, and p.s. (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        lineatus, Dirtandiron, Gemina13, Ahianne

        you are one of the select few on this site I respect because of your total respect for life.  That is what makes the discussion interesting.

        Blessings, lineatus.

        Vi er alle norske " My faith in the Constitution is whole; it is complete; it is total." Barbara Jordan, 1974

        by gchaucer2 on Sun Jun 10, 2012 at 06:34:21 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  You dont get to frame the debate (0+ / 0-)

        thats an old dishonest trick of .. well usually simpletons. Designed to only allow the ends you desire.

        You want to win people over.. and maybe learn yourself.. and maybe change yourself.. talk to some prolife people you like and respect and try to understand why. Talk to them in a kind and respectful way as you would hope they do you and you'll probably both learn some things and find you agree on most things.

        A man is born as many men but dies as a single one.--Martin Heidegger

        by cdreid on Mon Jun 11, 2012 at 05:46:51 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Actually, framing the debate is the first step (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Ahianne

          to victory.  You just need to frame it in a way that will allow your opposition to accept it.

          Where we've lost ground is exactly where we've let Republicans win the framing wars.

          If you don't frame the debate, you lose.

          •  Its dishonest and pathetic (0+ / 0-)

            Youre also assuming all democrats are prochoice. They arent. Youre assuming all republicans are prolife. They arent. Youre assuming everyone who is prochoice or prolife has a certain mindset. They dont.

            Actual statistically accurate surveys have been done on the issue and the median person is somewhere in the middle. They abhore late term abortion and abortion as birth control. They also abhor the idea of anyone forced to carry a pregnancy of rape or incest to term. They tend to support the absolute right of abortion in the first three months.. etc etc etc...

            Life isnt a game. Human beings arent opponents to be crushed by any means, honest or dishonest, available.

            Thinking like that is why we are where we are.

            A man is born as many men but dies as a single one.--Martin Heidegger

            by cdreid on Mon Jun 11, 2012 at 07:58:29 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I don't assume any of those things, thanks. (0+ / 0-)

              Nor do I look at politics as a game, but a deadly serious question of who has power, and how that power is used to help or hurt other people.

              Not that I assume explaining that will change your opinions one bit, but I didn't feel like letting your incorrect framing of my opinions and beliefs stand unchallenged.

              •  Framing (0+ / 0-)

                is dishonesty by definition. When people here started the whole "we should frame this this way" i raised cane. They werent talking about breaking out of the gop verbal traps. they were talking about flat out dishonesty to achieve a goal. Last  i checked any means to an end was a republican belief. I >expect< the left and democrats to attempt to be honest, logical, and to base their beliefs and actions around integrity.

                A man is born as many men but dies as a single one.--Martin Heidegger

                by cdreid on Mon Jun 11, 2012 at 11:06:55 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

    •  You are exactly (0+ / 0-)

      the type of person who needs to let this diary sink in.

      Perhaps if i made it simpler:

      these stereotypical hatefilled rants and insults of those who disagree with you partially or totally are not going to help you win the debate anymore than it will make the extremists on the other side win the debate . Perhaps it is time to debate like rational humans who indeed, likely have close friends on the other side of the debate

      A man is born as many men but dies as a single one.--Martin Heidegger

      by cdreid on Mon Jun 11, 2012 at 05:40:03 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Bourbon on the rocks (18+ / 0-)

    Purchase excellent bourbon
    Pour generously over ice
    Swirl three times
    Relax.  Enjoy.

    2012: the Year of the Voting Woman. And by the way, Republicans ... we're pretty pissed about what you've done to our country. Republican Party Motto: "Tax the poor, gift the rich"

    by mumtaznepal on Sun Jun 10, 2012 at 05:46:20 PM PDT

  •  I say splurge. (8+ / 0-)

    Knob Creek for me, hold the rocks.

    Life is a shipwreck. But we must not forget to sing in the lifeboats. — Voltaire

    by agrenadier on Sun Jun 10, 2012 at 05:50:52 PM PDT

  •  Can't drink much these last few years (8+ / 0-)

    Acid reflux. (  But you all enjoy yourselves.

  •  Wooooooo!!! (10+ / 0-)

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    •  and also (9+ / 0-)

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  •  Make mine Maker's Mark up. (9+ / 0-)

    If voting made any difference it would be illegal- Philip Berrigan

    by Mighty Ike on Sun Jun 10, 2012 at 06:00:18 PM PDT

  •  Gin and tonic, I think. (4+ / 0-)

    Or maybe some good Wisconsin beer?

  •  That's pretty impressive. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Aunt Pat, gchaucer2, 3goldens

    233 comments in well over 1,460 days being a member here.

    Welcome.

  •  "cluster of cells" is correct. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Aunt Pat, gchaucer2, wilderness voice

    Cells are alive.  So what?  The rights of non-sentient cells do not trump those of human beings, and it's fine to compare them in just these terms.

  •  your point is well taken, at least from my (9+ / 0-)

    perspective. There does seem to be a tendency, not only here, but elsewhere, to talk to the "choir," so to speak, which leads to a need for a reality check every now and again.

    A lot of the things argued on this site intrigue me.  Some things annoy me, for many of the reasons you cite.

    When folks here look at Wisconsin, they look through the filter of (mostly) Democratic eyes. Those eyes don't see that a large number of independents and even the few remaining sane/moderate Republicans do not see things the same way.

    Elections are mostly about persuading independents these days, as well as those who are registered Republicans and Democrats but who aren't really committed to those parties.

    All of the above probably applies as much to me as everyone else.

    But your overriding question is important: how can we better see things from an objective viewpoint in order to be able to persuade others who may not see things the same way we do?

    •  Look From the Far Left, Which is the Sole Politica (6+ / 0-)

      block that for example both accepts what science says about the facts of climate change and what science says about how much and how soon we need to address it.

      The entire remainder of the political spectrum denies either that the problem even exists or that the government can do anything meaningful about it at any foreseeable time.

      There's a whole raft of issues like that. Wealth concentration and militarism for two that together almost define the country and its present condition.

      We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

      by Gooserock on Sun Jun 10, 2012 at 06:37:08 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Member of the msm, huh? (5+ / 0-)

    $1 says you work for the local penny saver freebie.

    "Such is the irresistible nature of truth that all it asks, and all it wants, is the liberty of appearing." - Thomas Paine

    by blueoregon on Sun Jun 10, 2012 at 06:29:31 PM PDT

    •  Gratuitous (0+ / 0-)

      mindless insults? How very adult of you. Yet another who truely needs to read and comprehend this diary... and understand that it applies to any issue in existence. Mindless stereotyping hate is.. mindless.

      A man is born as many men but dies as a single one.--Martin Heidegger

      by cdreid on Mon Jun 11, 2012 at 05:50:40 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  It's Telling That Someone Who Imagines There's an (3+ / 0-)

    abortion "debate" is a member of the mainstream media.

    An argument conservatives can handle.

    Unbelieveable.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Sun Jun 10, 2012 at 06:34:46 PM PDT

    •  I honestly dont understand what youre (0+ / 0-)

      trying to say here. Unless its some.. attempt at an insult?

      To those of you living in a bubble there has been an abortion debate in this country since womens' sufferage. And that debate has shifted over time and in different directions. It's hard to see the steamroller coming when your head is in the sand..

      A man is born as many men but dies as a single one.--Martin Heidegger

      by cdreid on Mon Jun 11, 2012 at 05:52:30 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Sorry, no. (4+ / 0-)
    The fetus is a life.
    It's not a life until it is born, technically.
    The right would take away ALL abortion - at no matter what stage. And not all who are conceived are born - many conceptions end at early stages - some so early women didn't even know they were pregnant. Others never reach birth. There are millions of things that can go wrong.
    Self-righteous? Fuck that.
    I would guess you are male. I could be wrong. But since you give us poor lil' ol' womenfolk credit for having to do all the work, I'm guessing so.
    This is a VERY serious issue. Legal abortion - in all states, on-demand in all states, is necessary for women's reproductive rights and their health. It's not just semantics. It means a lot to have abortion available so women don't have to resort to wire hangers once again.

    Isn’t it ironic to think that man might determine his own future by something so seemingly trivial as the choice of an insect spray. ~ Rachel Carson, Silent Spring ~

    by MA Liberal on Sun Jun 10, 2012 at 06:37:23 PM PDT

    •  Legally. (0+ / 0-)

      The fetus is not a life - legally - until it is born.

      Biologically, it's as soon as it hits the uterus.

      •  The whole discussion of "life" (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        wsexson, lineatus

        as relates to fertilized eggs is not really that easy to define. Is an ectopic pregnancy a life? No uterus involved. What about spontaneous abortion (miscarriage)?

        We end up on the short end of the stick because those of us who are pro-choice have to argue from a very complicated place with moving time lines. Pro forced birthers don't have to make a coherent argument at all, to them it's all "a baby".

        "The scientific nature of the ordinary man is to go on out and do the best you can." John Prine

        by high uintas on Sun Jun 10, 2012 at 07:04:05 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Then again (2+ / 0-)

        the egg and the sperm were alive before they ever got together.

        The whole point of society is to be less unforgiving than nature. - Arthur D. Hlavaty

        by Alice Venturi on Sun Jun 10, 2012 at 07:14:30 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  It's the potential of a life. (0+ / 0-)

        A bunch of cells in a woman's uterus might, might, become a living, breathing human being if it makes it all the way through the nine months without incident, which millions do not - and not just because of abortion. There are so many things that can, and do go wrong along the way. And many (I believe up to 50%) never even attach long enough to make a baby.
        And abortion MUST be available so a woman carrying a dead child can have it removed (it happens, but the right wants to force women to carry a dead fetus), or if there is a problem that might endanger the woman's health (which the right doesn't care about), etc.
        Democrats MUST keep abortion legal and ensure that any woman who wants or needs one can get it without interference.
        We simply cannot go back to the "wire hanger" era. EVER.

        Isn’t it ironic to think that man might determine his own future by something so seemingly trivial as the choice of an insect spray. ~ Rachel Carson, Silent Spring ~

        by MA Liberal on Tue Jun 12, 2012 at 12:32:48 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Actually, this is not correct. (8+ / 0-)
      It's not a life until it is born, technically.
      In this country, it is a life, at least to the extent that it has "interests" of its own, different from the woman who carries it, prior to birth.  And the State can protect that life, against the wishes of the woman who carries it, prior to birth.  Roe v. Wade said that it is a "life" before birth, at viability.   From Roe v. Wade:
      With respect to the State's important and legitimate interest in potential life, the "compelling" point is at viability. This is so because the fetus then presumably has the capability of meaningful life outside the mother's womb. State regulation protective of fetal life after viability thus has both logical and biological justifications. If the State is interested in protecting fetal life after viability, it may go so far as to proscribe abortion [p164] during that period, except when it is necessary to preserve the life or health of the mother.
      It pretty much is the case in this country that it is a separate life prior to birth.  The major question remaining is what benchmark we use to define when that happens.  Roe v. Wade set that benchmark at viability, a compromise that was perhaps unsatisfying to both sides.  
      •  One of the significant problems with (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Timaeus

        viability is that it is a moving boundary. We are getting better and better at supporting premature births. Children who would have died three decades ago now not only survive but thrive. I don't think we (either we as in DK or we as in the larger community) have thought through the implications of medical technology that can support viability at five or four months.

        Is it true? Is it kind? Is it necessary? . . . and respect the dignity of every human being.

        by Wee Mama on Mon Jun 11, 2012 at 07:17:19 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  That's a very sensitive and intelligent way (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Wee Mama

          to express a thought that is dangerous here, the thought that there might be some limits to abortion.

          Many on the pro-choice side don't understand that Roe v. Wade itself restricted abortion during 2/3rds of a pregnancy.

          I agree with Bill Clinton's formulation:  abortion should be legal, safe, and rare.

          Source:  Abortion should not only be safe and legal, it should be rare. BILL CLINTON, speech at DNC, Aug. 29, 1996.

    •  No it wouldnt. (0+ / 0-)

      A lot of people here, including the most hardcore prochoicers, dont understand the issue and the legalities.

      If you decide a fetus is a life .. that makes it a state issue. Of course that has ramifications. But it doesnt change things the way you think.

      Because in roe v wade the supreme court pretty much.. made shit up in order to fashion a compromise. Roe v wade is very very shaky legally. It in fact recognises a right to privacy, extends that right to privacy to medicine, but on the other hand.. the exact rationale they used is not allowed to be carried further. The perfect examples: the drug laws. If you applied rowes principles to drugs the feds could make it illegal to sell them.. but not to use or possess them.

      As for your incredibly sexist "i guess your male" bullshit. When you sexists pull your heads out of your asses you'll finally Get that a LOT of women are prolife. Youre as ignorant, hateful and sexist as your counterpart on the other side.

      A man is born as many men but dies as a single one.--Martin Heidegger

      by cdreid on Mon Jun 11, 2012 at 05:58:40 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  It is a life, and it is alive. (0+ / 0-)

      Each of those cells is alive and performing the activities of life - moving ATP around, building organelles, dividing into more cells, etc.

      But as the cell argument goes, so what?  That E coli cell is a life too.

      So yes, that embryo is a life, it's just not a human yet.

  •  #4 is very good (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    rosarugosa, lineatus, efraker, cdreid

    It is the one I use most often when people are lamenting the loss of school prayer. Most of the time, these people are Fundamentalists. Here's how I respond:

    So, can we use the Roman Catholic version of the Lord's Prayer in schools? Or how about the Roman Catholic version of the Ten Commandments? Or how about the Ave Maria?

    Either they don't know the differences, or you force them to admit they've never thought deeply enough on the issue.

  •  I gotta say (6+ / 0-)

    I agree with much of what the diarist has said. But then, I've never been particularly Pollyanna-ish when it comes to politics.

    I read (and rec'd) Cherry's diary because it was a good, old-fashioned rant, and I rather enjoy a good rant. But it wasn't by any means an argument, much less one that could "end" the abortion debate. It was one person's rhetorical line in the sand, rather than persuasive argumentation. And that's fine. My sense of irony and Cherry's just don't happen to coincide, and I thought the title was just silly.

    The whole "no, really, we actually won in Wisconsin" thing really annoyed me. I have read (and haven't rec'd) a number of those diaries. Why? Because we lost. No, really, we lost. The senate seat is meaningless; short of some sort of emergency, the legislature isn't due to be in session until after the election. The important stuff - the recall of the governor - we lost. It's not the end of the world, and I personally don't need fluffy bunnies to lighten the pain of that loss, or to make me feel better. In fact, the chagrin of that loss has made me more willing to put my shoulder to the wheel for November. Other people's mileage will, without a doubt, vary.

    The whole point of society is to be less unforgiving than nature. - Arthur D. Hlavaty

    by Alice Venturi on Sun Jun 10, 2012 at 07:03:42 PM PDT

  •  I loved Cherry's diary (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    tardis10

    because it was a fervent expression of the anger many women feel about losing their reproductive rights.  

    This is a blog for expression of beliefs, hopes, values and a vehicle for finding community with others.  It doesn't purport to establish every political argument in the clearest, most persuasive way.  Progressives certainly need to learn how to frame their values in a more accessible way and present these values in the public square in a clearer, more inclusive way.

    But right here we can vent and engage in hyperbole.  You don't  have to like it and indeed you have said so.  

    It's the Supreme Court, stupid!

    by Radiowalla on Sun Jun 10, 2012 at 09:44:37 PM PDT

  •  The Diarist Could Benefit From..... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    kefauver

    2 graham crackers, a square of dark chocolate & several marshmellows smooshed together in the microwave.

    Sweeten up.  Your disdain is misplaced, not particularly helpful & grumpy.  

  •  #1 slime molds are alive too. Bacteria. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Ahianne

    fungus, etc.

    There are billions of living beings that live and die on each and every one of us.  There are more separate living critters on you than you have cells in your body.  And yet you try to kill many of them off on a daily basis, showering, using anti-bacterial hand soaps, you name it.

    The only thing 'special' about that specific group of cells is that it shares a bit more DNA with us than the rest of the cells around us.  We eat things that are 95% similar to ourselves.

    #2  Good argument.

    #3 Ok, total fail here in terms of achieving your goal.  Calling a fetus a 'mistake' never goes over well with the forced birthers.

    #4 Again, gonna fail on this one with the 'devoted'.  They're perfectly capable of holding contradictory thoughts and believing that in the event that government is taken over by theology, they will be the beneficiaries.

    #5 Snobs exist on both sides, but chances are what you're seeing is frustration that people are not logical, not rational, and have to be manipulated into holding rational positions.

  •  You're beyond naive. (0+ / 0-)
    If you lean toward liberty, you'll lean pro-choice. You lean toward life being the dominant value, you'll lean toward the anti-abortion stance. No Liberty argument you make will convince someone who is against abortion because they value the Life component.
    The anti abortionists are not valuing the "life component".  That's why babies are left to die without prenatal care, that's why there's hundreds of thousands of embryos in fertility clinics that will eventually go in the trash, that is why they don't get upset with abortions in case of rape and why their own duaghters are actually expected to quietly obtain abortions.

    IT's really all on the discussion of liberty: anti abortionists are against it.  They are against sexual freedom, for having those who play pay, and for making women jump through hoops to get an abotion..  

    Now, true, nothing is going to be "settled" in the near future.  But in the meantime, why buy into an argument that the anti abortion people don't believe?

    Romney is campaigning to be President SuperBain; his cure is to cut wages, end pensions, let companies go bankrupt, and let the assets of production go dark or be sold to China. He really thinks thats the best of all possible Americas.

    by Inland on Mon Jun 11, 2012 at 12:15:24 PM PDT

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