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Those who need in-patient mental health care cannot get it. Unless they make a suicide attempt. WTF. Now again it has impacted my own family. This system encourages suicide. I've known this for three decades since I was married to a very suicidal person but it seems nothing can or will be done about it.

I'm so grateful that this suicide attempt was unsuccessful, but what if it hadn't been? The trauma of this will not easily be overcome by many people. I know because I've lived with some of these traumas over the past 35 years and eventually had major depression myself. Does a person, to get help, need to utterly ruin his or her life first? This makes no sense from any perspective except greedy, profit-driven, immoral capitalist health insurance corporations. The plutocrats have decided on a purely profit basis that there is to be no in-patient intervention for suicidal people unless they make an actual attempt which can, of course, and sometimes does, succeed in ending a person's life.

I'm ready to rant against the immoral capitalist system run by the plutocrats who actually like this corporate health profit system.

It's so tragic. Well, to people with morals. Why must people, the ill individual, and the whole family and friends, have to endure the pain and impact of an actual attempt? What a freaking horrible and unnecessary state of affairs.

In this case, a member of my family, depressed, in despair, unable to make herself/himself take medications, unable to suppress an addiction to alcohol, caved. Drank, and so on.....don't want to say too much. An attempt was made. Now. Now he/she can get help. Now. Anyone could see she/he needed it then. Before.

But no. American for profit Health Care System made this happen.

And because of her/his profession, this episode could end up costing this person a long-held job. It will cause untold suffering and humiliation for her/him and the family.

It could have and should have been prevented. So easily. Would have been in other, more caring countries with socialized medicine. Terrible countries like the UK, France or Canada to name a few.

Any country worth much would have figured this out by now, would have a different system. Any country today, without nearly half of it's population being enthralled by a fact-hating conservative ideology that exists by perpetuation of lies and irrationality disguised, well, any such country would have solved this tragic problem.

But America is not such a country. We are a country where greed and immoral capitalism is worshiped by a good part of the electorate, whether they admit it or not. We are a country where logic, science, facts, rationality and morality are ignored by almost half the population.

We are a country where plutocrats ruled the day and did not allow a single payer, non-corporate insurance,  health care system.

I really do not want to live in a country that is run by people like that. If the Republicans and Independents elect Mitt Romney, well, I've had it. After being a Liberal Democrat (and proud of it) and a political junkie all my life, and I'm 68, I will withdraw from all politics. I will not pay any attention to any of it. I will not be able to bear it and don't want to ruin the rest of my life thinking about what apparently cannot change. I don't have the money to move abroad but I would if I could I think, if that were to happen.

If I were younger and in good health it would turn me into a revolutionary, wanting to take action myself to dislodge the plutocracy, basically change our government into a true democracy, getting money out of politics.

And perhaps most importantly, alter the capitalist system which is complete amoral
and immoral as well.

Checking dictionary.com I found these synonyms for immorality. I'd argue that they also apply to our system of capitalism.
 

"Immorality." Synonyms:
bad, wicked, dissolute, dissipated, profligate. Immoral, abandoned, depraved,  describe one who makes no attempt to curb self-indulgence. Immoral,  referring to conduct, applies to one who acts contrary to or does not obey or conform to standards of morality......
Our 1% capitalists, many of whom make their money by gambling in our financial  markets, they are divorced from the 99%, especially from the 90%, and completely from the 20% at the bottom.

The 1%, the amoral/immoral capitalists at the top, they would like to continue having 50 million Americans have no access to health care. Yes, that is immoral.
Because they want health insurance corporations to make big profits. They can further increase their portfolios, they can even place bets on which insurance corps will make the most profit. Lots of fun, lots of billions to be made on the backs of the poor.

As Chris Hayes just pointed out on the noon-day msnbc with Alex, the top 1% capitalists here are more than ever vastly separated from real people, and the needs of real people. He said the founding fathers talked about this kind of problem when revolting against the King of England whom they described as far removed and slow to act to meet their needs. They wanted to avoid that in the future. But today we have plutocrats running our nation, the 1% run it all and are ever-increasingly controlling our legislatures and our elections. They are very clever and they've been working towards this end for more than a century. Not surprising they've found ways to buy this tremendous power and hold onto it.

What can we do about it? Only take to the streets as we did in the 60's and revolt against it. But there are not enough people who are wise to the situation and willing to risk everything to make that happen. Not yet anyway.

So we can pray for our loved ones, gnash our teeth, cry and try to hold out a bit of hope. That's all.

.

Originally posted to Gorette on Tue Jun 12, 2012 at 11:54 AM PDT.

Also republished by Mental Health Awareness.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Tips for the hurting........ (20+ / 0-)

    avoidable pain and suffering. Who was it who said, "Oh, the  Humanity"? Where is the humanity?

    "extreme concentration of income is incompatible with real democracy.... the truth is that the whole nature of our society is at stake." Paul Krugman

    by Gorette on Tue Jun 12, 2012 at 10:40:47 AM PDT

  •  This is a huge problem (12+ / 0-)

    I don't think people can even realize what a problem this is.  I have been through it also.  My Mother has mental health issues and due to fear and family pride was kept from ever receiving any treatment throughout her life, no matter how it affected our family.  When my father passed away my Mother quickly became unable to care for herself and we had to get her into assisted living.  She became more and more unmanageable, she was raging and abusive to my sister and I, and we feared she would get kicked out of the assisted living facility.  We took her to see Psychiatrists and they just could not grasp that an older person could also be mentally ill.  We were treated as cruel liers by the system and sent on our way.  It had to reach a point where my Mother, in a screaming rage at me for putting her medications in a locked box for safety, grabbed a knife and slashed through both her wrists.  Even then I was told by the mental health facility she was taken to that since she wasn't behaving that way there, they could not say she suffered from anything as "serious" as I described.

    We finally found a Psychiatrist who listened to us and and took her suicide attempt seriously.  My Sister was ready to be finished with dealing with the screaming and telling us she wanted to die and wanted us dead.  We heard that our whole childhoods.  I knew I wasn't going to be able to take it much longer myself.  All in all it took three trips to psych units and many Dr. visits before someone listened and took our situation seriously.  Now our Mother is on appropriate medications and we can care for her without worrying she will harm herself, or us (either verbially or physically).

    Psychiatry is a joke in this country, people who are desperate for treatment either don't receive it, or are not fully analyzed and properly diagnosed when they do, it seems.  The effect on entire families is horrific.  We desperately need for mental health care to be taken seriously.  Our Mother has insurance and we had to fight unbelievably hard to get her the care she needed.  People without insurance or people to fight for their care end up on the streets with nothing many times.

    •  Wow. It's incredible, isn't it, that you (8+ / 0-)

      have to work so hard and so long just to get the right diagnosis, for God's sake! Thank you for writing about this. I'm sure people who have not dealt with it in their own family have no idea the havoc, the pain and desperation it causes even when the person gets treated. Until it is dealt with correctly it can go on a lifetime as you have had to endure.

      That must have been so painful having your mother in such a situation. I know when I was young just seeing my mom in any kind of distress it was terribly upsetting, and she did not suffer from an illness.

      To not have the doctors believe you, -- that is so bad! I don't know what I'd do.

      When you say it's a joke I must agree. It's like the profession exists, psychiatry, to work with the wealthy whenever they need a hand held. No one else can afford them. There are some good ones but who can afford it?

      "extreme concentration of income is incompatible with real democracy.... the truth is that the whole nature of our society is at stake." Paul Krugman

      by Gorette on Tue Jun 12, 2012 at 12:22:18 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Thanks for the diary (10+ / 0-)

        I was thinking about this just today, when I was going to lunch and saw an (obviously) mentally ill lady I frequently see near the Kroger down the street.  As usual, sporting her winter coat with hood obvlivious to 82 degrees and nearly 100% humidity; her shopping cart laden with more plastic bags than the store recycle bin.

        No help for her, chalk it up to her "right" to be sick.  More like an obligation to the 1% to be impoverished and untreated in a country where mental health care is not just a privilege but a luxury.

        •  How sad. I wonder what the estimate is (4+ / 0-)

          of untreated homeless mentally ill people there are? Could be in the hundreds of thousands I should think.

          "extreme concentration of income is incompatible with real democracy.... the truth is that the whole nature of our society is at stake." Paul Krugman

          by Gorette on Tue Jun 12, 2012 at 12:47:28 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I've read estimates as high as (4+ / 0-)

            1/3 to 1/2 of all homeless people having untreated psychotic disorders, at least prior to the foreclosure crisis.

            A big part of it is the policy whiplash we had in the late 1970s and early 1980s. President Carter signed the Mental Health Systems Act into law in 1980, during the era of deinstitutionalization. This would have diverted most of the funds that had previously been spent on mental hospitals toward a nationwide outpatient treatment system that shared records with Medicaid.

            The MHSA never went into effect. It was literally the first program the Reagan administration cut. But the institutions kept closing, and the result was people leaving institutions and finding that they had nowhere else to go.

            Outpatient treatment can be very effective, but it obviously doesn't work if it doesn't exist.

        •  Yes, it is legally her right (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Gorette

          It is currently her right to refuse medication. It is currently her right to refuse to have her freedom of movement restricted. It's a really tough issue. How would you define a law that forces her to be treated against her will, but still allows any of the rest of us to do things that might be harmful to us? Where should that line be drawn, and how is it to be clearly and fairly defined, so we know with little doubt who is on the side that is free to be self-destructive and who is on the side of the line that requires them to be physically restrained and/or forced to ingest prescribed chemicals?

          from a bright young conservative: “I’m watching my first GOP debate…and WE SOUND LIKE CRAZY PEOPLE!!!!”

          by Catte Nappe on Tue Jun 12, 2012 at 06:25:03 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  She may not have an option (0+ / 0-)

            If she wanted treatment, it might not be available or at least not very accessible to her.  That's really the elephant in the living room.  I feel like those who don't want any social spending on mental health pretend no one who needs it actually wants it.  That doesn't mean I want anything forced on someone.  As things are though people are being forced to do without.

  •  I worked in a state mental hospital... (11+ / 0-)

    And they are probably worse than you know. Politicians make the regulations that govern patient care. The same politicians who complain about state workers literally control our every action, despite out unions...EVERY contract we have had with the state since we unionized in the early 1970's contains a clause giving the management of each hospital tie right to do ANYTHING they want to maintain order and make the place run smoothly.

    Doctors ability to prescribe medication is controlled by the legislature-a patient's meds MUST be changed periodically, usually every 6 months, if they are working and the patient is stable or not...they MUST be changed. This provides a guaranteed income for drug makers who heap piles of cash on state politicians.

    Politicians cause the rules to be made. They made it very difficult to be admitted to any state institution, and in most cases impossible to stay in one, even it it is saving the patient's life. After a specific length of time, patients MUST be discharged to a "community based" home, usually a group home, which are paid for by the county, not the state.

    All this is based not on treatment or care, but on money and  politics.

    Retired AFSCME Steward and licensed gun carrying progressive veteran.

    by old mark on Tue Jun 12, 2012 at 12:12:45 PM PDT

    •  I also worked in a state mental hospital ... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      cotterperson, get the red out

      and I thought the care was pretty good.  The patients were seen regularly by their psychiatrist and internist, they had group therapy, activities, exercise, music, TVs, video games, etc.  Their biggest complaint was that they were afraid of the other patients, because some of them were violent.  That's where we ran into problems; the state policy sometimes prevented the violent patient from being properly medicated.  They even had musical talent shows and a basketball league.

      Finally, you don't have to attempt suicide to get admitted to a psychiatric hospital, just have suicidal ideation.

      I'm not saying that there aren't problems, just that these aren't the problems.

      Can't we just drown Grover Norquist in a bathtub?

      by Rezkalla on Tue Jun 12, 2012 at 12:45:55 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Not true here. Believe me, they tried that (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        trueblueliberal, marina, cotterperson

        because this person was seriously talking about it over and over and people were worried. They were told it did have to be an actual attempt. And these are people who work in a medical field.

        Where do you live? That's here in Florida. It was also that way in NE in the 90's.

        "extreme concentration of income is incompatible with real democracy.... the truth is that the whole nature of our society is at stake." Paul Krugman

        by Gorette on Tue Jun 12, 2012 at 01:14:02 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Talking about it is not enough (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Gorette

          Deeply worried friends and family are not enough. The law requires more immediate danger to deprive someone of their freedom to reject treatment.

          from a bright young conservative: “I’m watching my first GOP debate…and WE SOUND LIKE CRAZY PEOPLE!!!!”

          by Catte Nappe on Tue Jun 12, 2012 at 06:07:37 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  I worked in PA. (0+ / 0-)

        The care was good, but many of the regulations were generated by politics and profit.

        The nursing and social work and social programs staff were very good. Some of the doctors and administrators were less than good.

        mark

        Retired AFSCME Steward and licensed gun carrying progressive veteran.

        by old mark on Thu Jun 14, 2012 at 01:15:15 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  All done for the private "enterprise" to (6+ / 0-)

      make money on people's suffering. That's terrible how they will make them switch a medication that is working. Sometimes that is very difficult to find in the first place and who knows how much harm and additional pain will come from that one thing. Politicians should have nothing to say about treatments, period.

      Yes, and people are so uninformed about all the good things unions do and have done that make life better for all, or at least the 90%.

      "extreme concentration of income is incompatible with real democracy.... the truth is that the whole nature of our society is at stake." Paul Krugman

      by Gorette on Tue Jun 12, 2012 at 12:51:43 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Politicians make the rules, then blame the workers (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Gorette

        when things go wrong. In PA Civil Service workers can be fired for taking part in political activity other than voting...to the point where they recommend NO political bumper stickers on cars driven to work.

        The politicians of course use public employees as regular targets to stir up hate and anti union sentiment among the ignorant, and make regulations that benefit the drug companies and other large contributors.

        We also suffered under very poor management and leadership...I can not go into specifics here, but we have had active alcoholics and wife beaters controlling the hospital.

        The system here in PA protects the higher ups and targets the lower echelon workers...great stress, frequent heart attacks  strokes and cancer among the workers as well as dangerous conditions at work resulting in injuries to staff and patients and a huge number of lawsuits against the hospital and management...and the state itself.

        I have no doubt that since the GOP controls our state, things are much worse now.

        Retired AFSCME Steward and licensed gun carrying progressive veteran.

        by old mark on Mon Jun 18, 2012 at 07:07:54 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  wow. that's terrible, mark. (0+ / 0-)

          I worked for government for short amounts of time, fed, state and local. It showed me how bad conditions can be in these situations, mostly fed. But when they talk about pensions for instance, they don't seem to realize that it was part of what made people accept lower state salaries because the pension benefits were considered part of what you took the job for and were earning.

          Poor management and leadership, yes, I can imagine. Things can get very bad because bureaucracies can be almost immune to change. Having an alcoholic run a hospital?? Unsafe working conditions? And the GOP does not want any regulations really.

          That ban on political activity though seems like it should be un-Constitutional. It's not right.

          Watching the trial now with Penn State's role, and the local police's record of not prosecuting Sandusky, it makes you sick. And all this corruption, for that is really what all this is, should be called out for what it is. In this country we have never until very recently used the word, CORRUPTION, for some reason. I hope you feel you can speak out somewhere about these bad things in PA.

          "extreme concentration of income is incompatible with real democracy.... the truth is that the whole nature of our society is at stake." Paul Krugman

          by Gorette on Mon Jun 18, 2012 at 08:21:04 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I'm retired now, so they have nothing to say... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Gorette

            We never had a full complement of workers at my hospital. We held job fairs, recruited people sat times by the dozens. They didn't stay despite the fabled "overpaid and underworked" bullshit about government jobs. We had people walk off their jobs in the first week, several in the first day.

            At one time, we had so many lawsuits against the hospital and the state Department of Public Welfare which runs all the  state hospitals that a well known lawyer who made a career of suing the state on behalf of workers wold not take another case...he had too many clients and had no time for any more.

            When I was an AFSCME steward there, I knew so many workers who were injured on the job due to poor and often conflicting management policies. I knew several people who were permanently disabled from working at that hospital. I even witnessed one of them being harassed by the head of the HR department because her own doctor would not let her return to work for the third time, when the HR office said she should come back after a severe neck injury.

            She did sue, and she won. I wrote a letter for her which was read in court and did help her to obtain a decent settlement.
            Her injury was such that she could not life anything over 5 pounds without severe pain.

            Since then, I know there have been several changes to the hospital system, and it seems to me that few of them are for the better. I am personally very glad to be out of there.

            Retired AFSCME Steward and licensed gun carrying progressive veteran.

            by old mark on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 12:12:20 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  Republished to Mental Health Awareness (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Mary Mike, Gorette, marina, cotterperson

    North Carolina: Where you can marry your cousin. Just not your gay cousin.

    by second gen on Tue Jun 12, 2012 at 12:36:43 PM PDT

  •  THIS IS MALPRACTICE! (6+ / 0-)
    there is to be no in-patient intervention for suicidal people unless they make an actual attempt
    That's the first time I've ever shouted here (since 2004!), but by gawd someone ought to sue the policy-makers and/or the doctors who carry out their killing policies.

    The first thing we read about suicide is not to ignore suicidal ideation! We, all of us, have surely read that one time or another if we have interest in the subject. I am  neither a lawyer nor a doctor, but I worked at a medical school for 20 years -- fortunately, since there I was treated for depression and did not carry through on the idea (just barely). A lawsuit would at least scare them into stopping. (Profiteers hate lawsuits for many reasons.)

    Maybe sue the doctors who implement the policy, because it is surely malpractice, and let them sort it out with the profiteers. Make them stop, and let the MFs sort out who makes the payment on a judgement against them. Screw 'em!

    Aaargh.

    Fine diary, Gorette, thank you.

    "Let each unique song be sung and the spell of differentiation be broken" - Winter Rabbit

    by cotterperson on Tue Jun 12, 2012 at 12:43:05 PM PDT

    •  You are right, someone should, but I can't (5+ / 0-)

      believe this has not been tried, over and over. In two cases previously in my family, I have come up against this "requirement." Either danger toward self or others, but they seem to make the requirement now very concrete indeed.

      I don't know if there is anything worse for a family than to have to bring home a suicidal person who can't be helped with inpatient care. Oftentimes, the individual making the threats will make their partner or parent, whatever, totally wrapped up in taking care that they do not do it. My former husband, for instance, did this more than once a week for a couple of years or more, always saying if I left he would do it for sure. Then years later when he left he said it was not real, that I should have "called his bluff." Arrrrgh. Silly me, thinking I was doing the right and noble thing. That's just my personal crap.

      The real problem is so many people who need it right now can't get the help they need without in effect blowing up their lives and many around them. It's the system that is doing the deed. It's why I call it an atrocity. Shameful.

      Thanks for caring, cotterperson.

      "extreme concentration of income is incompatible with real democracy.... the truth is that the whole nature of our society is at stake." Paul Krugman

      by Gorette on Tue Jun 12, 2012 at 01:01:35 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Strongly agree (3+ / 0-)

        with every word you've written here. Really, I didn't mean to imply that you could do it yourself. That would be big and expensive. Just hope some mental-health advocates read your diary. I had no idea how bad it is out there. I'm uninsured for another couple of years until Medicare, so I really am glad I got treatment when I could.

        My friend left her husband, who sounds much like yours, and he did kill himself right away, so I hope you don't beat yourself up too much.

        At least anyone who reads your diary will have a better understanding. Thanks again.

        "Let each unique song be sung and the spell of differentiation be broken" - Winter Rabbit

        by cotterperson on Tue Jun 12, 2012 at 01:23:29 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Thanks, no I didn't take it personally (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          marina, cotterperson, aznavy

          at all. I've read enough of your comments in the past to have a sense of you as a good, kind person.

          Interesting what you mention about someone who did go through with it. Yes, that is good to remember.

          Writing is interesting, after doing so it's like the burden is lifted for a while.

          "extreme concentration of income is incompatible with real democracy.... the truth is that the whole nature of our society is at stake." Paul Krugman

          by Gorette on Tue Jun 12, 2012 at 01:47:25 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Not necessarily. It depends. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      cotterperson, Gorette

      Please read my comment of a few moment ago.
      http://www.dailykos.com/...

      from a bright young conservative: “I’m watching my first GOP debate…and WE SOUND LIKE CRAZY PEOPLE!!!!”

      by Catte Nappe on Tue Jun 12, 2012 at 06:09:52 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Thanks for the thoughtful response. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Catte Nappe, Gorette

        Those two situations are certainly different, and I'm sure there are different and complex legal ramifications. That said, any individual who discusses suicide should be taken seriously by families and physicians. The increased risk has been well established since the '70s, at least, speaking from experience.

        When I called the Dept. of Psychiatry at the medical school where I worked to see a doctor about my depression, I was put through to the resident assigned to "intake" that day. When I told him what I wanted, we made an appointment. Before I hung up, though, he asked "Are you sure you're going to be all right until then?"

        The proven potential consequence -- death -- is simply too great.

        That's where I'm coming from, anyway ;)

        "Let each unique song be sung and the spell of differentiation be broken" - Winter Rabbit

        by cotterperson on Tue Jun 12, 2012 at 07:49:26 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  This is so complicated (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    cotterperson, Gorette

    Neither the diary, nor comments of equally stressed and angry family/friends in similar circumstances, give enough information to differentiate; but there are two distinctly different issues.

    1. A depressed and suicidal person who is actively seeking inpatient treatment being turned away - for whatever reason (lack of insurance, funds, available beds, psych diagnoses erroneously minimizing the danger, etc.)

    2. A depressed and suicidal person whose family/friends are concerned and want the person in a contained inpatient treatement for their own protection - even if the person does not want to be there.

    In the latter case - involuntary commitment - the law generally protects the patient's autonomy and will to decline inpatient treatment. However much those who care for the patient can see the inevitable disaster coming, unless the person is clearly an immediate danger to themselves or others, they cannot be held against their will.

    This is sort of an "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" situation. You can certainly object to the way the laws approach this. However, if you do, you also need to imagine the unintended consequences of weakening such protections to the extent that someone who is eccentric, or obnoxious, or hostile, or violently acting out can be deprived involuntarily of their freedom. The current legal protections of the individual's right to reject treatment were the result of hard fought battles waged by compassionate liberals in the past, and are not a mark of "immoral capitalist health insurance corporations" or "plutocrats [who]have decided on a purely profit basis"

    from a bright young conservative: “I’m watching my first GOP debate…and WE SOUND LIKE CRAZY PEOPLE!!!!”

    by Catte Nappe on Tue Jun 12, 2012 at 06:04:05 PM PDT

    •  Point well taken. Thank you. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      cotterperson, Catte Nappe

      As I said, it was a rant, and I know about the legal protection side but having had to put my son in an institution, and fight for him to get help with ptsd, it is a very emotional and fraught issue for me.

      "extreme concentration of income is incompatible with real democracy.... the truth is that the whole nature of our society is at stake." Paul Krugman

      by Gorette on Wed Jun 13, 2012 at 06:49:49 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I do understand (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Gorette

        Went through a similar experience twice, with a former colleague.

        from a bright young conservative: “I’m watching my first GOP debate…and WE SOUND LIKE CRAZY PEOPLE!!!!”

        by Catte Nappe on Wed Jun 13, 2012 at 07:24:14 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Thinking about this later, I (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Catte Nappe

          believe that even if the person who is needing treatment wants to go to a hospital that without a suicide attempt they would not take him under some insurance plans.  That's more the kind of situation I was thinking of.

          "extreme concentration of income is incompatible with real democracy.... the truth is that the whole nature of our society is at stake." Paul Krugman

          by Gorette on Wed Jun 13, 2012 at 03:35:07 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

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