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(americasvoiceonline.org)
Asked by pollsters, Latino voters overwhelmingly support Barack Obama. So much so, in fact, that if Republicans don't cut into that support, Mitt Romney's chances fall to virtually zero.

Republicans have certainly mismanaged their relationship with Latino voters. There is no love for the GOP. But the Obama Administration appears hell-bent on doing everything possible to put the Latino vote back in contention. How? By maintaining a callous and deeply unpopular deportation policy.

Immigrant advocates on Monday condemned the administration's recent findings that a policy designed to reduce the deportations of otherwise law-abiding illegal immigrants has had almost no effect.

An ongoing government review has found that fewer than 2 percent of the more than 400,000 pending deportation cases have been halted.

The government says thousands more cases will be closed, but critics say the paltry results so far expose an unwillingness among immigration agents to enforce the new policy.

"We were quite hopeful that the new policies would usher in a new era of humane enforcement," Frank Sharry, executive director of America's Voice Education Fund, told reporters on a conference call with other advocacy groups. "A year later, we are sad to declare that the implementation of this policy is failing. [It] has not made this better and to some extent has made it worse."

There is no way to understate the effect of this news. It has dominated Spanish language media, and cynical Republicans have jumped at the opportunity to show fake concern for the results. It has given Sen. Marco Rubio a chance to grandstand with his own inadequate version of the DREAM Act, while Republicans blast (legitimately, for once) the administration for breaking its promises on immigration reform. As a result of this intense media focus, the Latino community is incredibly well informed on the issue—they'll speak to you about "prosecutorial discretion" and know who John Morton is (do you?).

As one attendee at Netroots Nation noted at a panel on immigration reform—a temporary halt to deportations for non-criminal undocumented immigrants would be worth tens of millions of dollars in Spanish-language television ads for the Obama campaign.

Instead, the Spanish-language media is dominated by stories about Obama's broken promises—first, his promises to tackle the issue in the first year of his presidency (which he didn't bother doing), and second, his promise to reduce the number of deportations. Believe it or not, splitting up families is not good politics.

This administration has deported more people than previous Republican administrations. Yet he hasn't gained a single vote from the nativist xenophobic Right. Not only would halting non-criminal deportations be the humane thing to do, it would also be good electoral politics.

Originally posted to kos on Thu Jun 14, 2012 at 12:41 PM PDT.

Also republished by Daily Kos.

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Comment Preferences

  •  These are the actions of someone who wants... (11+ / 0-)

    ...to lose.

    Barack Obama: Gives people who tortured other people to death a pass, prosecutes whistleblowers. Change we can believe in!

    by expatjourno on Thu Jun 14, 2012 at 12:43:34 PM PDT

  •  foolish (8+ / 0-)

    On the administrations part. I don't know what their thinking. Honestly, all of this talk about gaffes and economic messages really don't matter if he has Latinos on his side. If they come out in full force for him, I don't care if the economy completely tanks, mitt romney will lose. So this is very dumb. I am curious though which republicans are using this news. Frankly, they were heavily criticizing him when he announced that he was gonna stop some deportations. They really don't have a leg to stand on.

  •  and the deportion of binationals is even WORSE... (4+ / 0-)

    ...if you are a gay couple...even if you're a legally married gay couple.

    "evolution", cloaked in state's rights.

  •  Sad ... (10+ / 0-)

    When the President first announced the "prosecutorial discretion" policy, prominent Phoenix immigrant rights activist Carlos Galindo practically turned his radio show into one long Obama ad. He was giving the Prez very positive, free, Spanish language coverage in Arizona. He hasn't been doing that of late. In the President's defense, he can give local authorities discretion, but, apparently, he can't make them use it.

    The GOP ... Government of the 1%, by the 1%, for the 1%

    by Azazello on Thu Jun 14, 2012 at 12:59:29 PM PDT

    •  That "prosecutorial discretion" **speech** (8+ / 0-)

      did not translate into many changes at the local level.  

      It was a nice speech, but there wasn't any effort to push it down to real procedure.  They continue to hound "Dream students" and others, breaking up families, going after teens, etc.  

      Wrong, wrong, wrong.

      What a Police State Looks Like: "On one side: soft human flesh, unprotected human skulls, cardboard signs, slogans they chant, armed with belief in 1st Amendment rights. On the other: helmets, body armor, guns, batons, chemical weapons." -- JanetRhodes

      by YucatanMan on Thu Jun 14, 2012 at 01:32:21 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Maybe there's still some time to turn this around. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ivorybill, Azazello, YucatanMan

        Call some Homeland Security shirts into the back room and put the fear of God in them.  Follow the new policy direction and do it fast or heads will roll.  

        It takes time to change organizational culture, and ICE's is probably particularly resistant.  But ve haf vays to make you talk!

        "The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function." -- Edward Teller

        by lgmcp on Thu Jun 14, 2012 at 04:08:56 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  All that has to be done is to fire several people (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Azazello, lgmcp

          who are focusing on teens and families and not felons.

          They are wasting limited resources on people who are not a danger to anyone while not putting their full attention on criminals and drug dealers where it should be.

          The people who are pursuing families, mothers, fathers, teens, college-age students are actually a bigger threat to our nation than the immigrants themselves -- because they are choosing NOT to go after dangerous criminals.

          What a Police State Looks Like: "On one side: soft human flesh, unprotected human skulls, cardboard signs, slogans they chant, armed with belief in 1st Amendment rights. On the other: helmets, body armor, guns, batons, chemical weapons." -- JanetRhodes

          by YucatanMan on Thu Jun 14, 2012 at 08:08:59 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  That was almost the worst thing to do (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Azazello, quill, rosarugosa

      It got so many people's hopes up.  I used to work in the immigration field - I no longer do.  It seems just heartbreaking to mess with people like this.  It's wrong, and it's so very stupid.  So many people came in to see their lawyers, or their immigrant organizations, and actually expected that there would be progress.

      I remember in 2006 when there was a brief chance at immigration reform.  500,000 people flooded downtown Chicago.  I have never seen a crowd like that.  I have never seen energy like that.  Occupy?  They're great.  But they will never match that sort of a crowd.  If Obama would do the right thing and harness that... I have to believe we are a better country than it seems we are, and that it would gain him more votes than it would lose.

      It sure as hell would take the fight right to the GOP.  Doing the right thing now, given in mind the demographics, would redefine Moral Majority.  

      “If the misery of the poor be caused not by the laws of nature, but by our institutions, great is our sin.” Charles Darwin

      by ivorybill on Thu Jun 14, 2012 at 04:32:39 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I can only assume that the people running (16+ / 0-)

    this administration feel like the Hispanic or Latino vote is as firm as the liberal Dem, NA and AA populations and they're trading the "few" they might lose because of broken trust or broken families, for a surge in Republicans for Obama.

    Bad policy, bad for people.

    Here is the truth: The Earth is round; Saddam Hussein did not attack us on 9/11; Elvis is dead; Obama was born in the United States; and the climate crisis is real. It is time to act. - Al Gore

    by Burned on Thu Jun 14, 2012 at 01:07:53 PM PDT

  •  What is the driving force behind the zeal (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    YucatanMan, 3goldens, lgmcp

    for deportations? Career advancement for case managers? Or is it the typical lack of political will and cajones to address a difficult problem with care and consideration? Or "all of the above" and then some?

    Who is doing whose bidding here?


    Not this mind and not this heart, I won't rot • Mumford & Sons

    by jayden on Thu Jun 14, 2012 at 01:10:57 PM PDT

  •  I'm not sure I agree with this 'take'... (14+ / 0-)
    the paltry results so far expose an unwillingness among immigration agents to enforce the new policy.
    Who are the 'immigration agents'?  They appear to have some ability to flout the wishes of the administration.  Is that really the administration's 'fault'?  Are there legal pathways to fire agents who refuse to follow policy?  Is the problem with the administration that they can crack down on such 'free agency', and simply haven't bothered?
    •  Best comment in this diary so far. (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      lcj98, Aquarius40, lgmcp, Larsstephens

      Can we just this once ask the right questions rather make the wrong assumptions?

      Ds see human suffering and wonder what they can do to relieve it. Rs see human suffering and wonder how they can profit from it.

      by JTinDC on Thu Jun 14, 2012 at 01:35:19 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I'm not even asking rhetorically - I don't know (5+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        JTinDC, Supavash, HappyinNM, lgmcp, fuzzyguy

        the answers here.  Can the administration actually get such people out of their jobs without simply getting sued and having the courts reinstate them for such behavior?  I don't want this to be able to be used by Repubs as a 'political witchhunt' (similar to the Bush admin's ousting of lawyer types who refused to prosecute Dems for no real reason), but at the same time I feel the admin should have some ability to actually enforce their own policies, and stop deportations.

        •  I knew you weren't asking rhetorically. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          lgmcp

          You're asking reasonable, thoughtful questions and not making up answers that suit a particular narrative. That's why you rock. :-)

          Ds see human suffering and wonder what they can do to relieve it. Rs see human suffering and wonder how they can profit from it.

          by JTinDC on Thu Jun 14, 2012 at 02:05:04 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  This would result in Repub ads about "good honest (0+ / 0-)

          government employees" being fired for enforcing the law.

          The most important way to protect the environment is not to have more than one child.

          by nextstep on Thu Jun 14, 2012 at 03:42:09 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  I don't think it's necessary to fire people. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          lgmcp

          It seems that information hasn't been made clear enough. Perhaps the President needs to have a talk with Sec. Napolitano to make sure that she's clear on the policy, and that it's serious. In my mind, this is why kos posted this today.

          Your left is my right---Mort Sahl

          by HappyinNM on Thu Jun 14, 2012 at 03:54:54 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  And a hundred of her top staff. (0+ / 0-)

            Who in turn need to call their own people into conference rooms and make some serious plans on how to turn this around.

            Of course some will say "but they're ALL illegal!".  Okay, but the issue is ratios.  The ratio of deportees with felony convictions to those with misdemeanors.  The ratio of those with misdemeanors to those with no convictions of any kind (other than for undocumented status).  The ratio of single adults deported to those with legalized spouses or children.  

            Put them on notice to improve those ratios or get bad performance reviews as individuals or as operating units.  And of course units with poor performance can face consquences in the budgetary process ...  

            "The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function." -- Edward Teller

            by lgmcp on Thu Jun 14, 2012 at 04:14:53 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  They do have such an ability. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          fuzzyguy

          It's called an executive order, and Obama can sign one ordering the deportations limited to felonies and major misdemeanors at any time he chooses.  He has, so far, chosen not to do that.

          As for those agents, sure, he can fire them.  But being federal employees, they have more rights than the ordinary American worker.  They can be reinstated.  And such firings would be potent ammunition for the Romney team, too.

      •  Please. . . n/t (0+ / 0-)

        the fact that you're right is nothing more than interesting

        by Egg on Thu Jun 14, 2012 at 03:54:50 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Yes, it is the administration's fault. Absolutely (7+ / 0-)

      Every administration is responsible for pursuing their policies. They are the executive branch.  If orders come down from above, people are supposed to follow them. If people don't follow orders, there are procedures to follow to either discipline or dismiss them.  

      If the administration - the executive branch - does not actually pursue the policies announced in the President's speeches, then it IS the administration's fault.

      What a Police State Looks Like: "On one side: soft human flesh, unprotected human skulls, cardboard signs, slogans they chant, armed with belief in 1st Amendment rights. On the other: helmets, body armor, guns, batons, chemical weapons." -- JanetRhodes

      by YucatanMan on Thu Jun 14, 2012 at 01:49:12 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Agree. It's not as if deportation is ten. . . (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        YucatanMan

        . . . levels down in hierarchy as a national, political or human rights issue.

        The "it's my aides" or "it wasn't important enough to follow up with to see if it was working" is something that I hope and doubt I'll see Obama say.  He can make up better wishy wimpy excuses than that.

        the fact that you're right is nothing more than interesting

        by Egg on Thu Jun 14, 2012 at 05:02:30 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I'm happy to asnwer this (13+ / 0-)

      This is a top down problem.  Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) has a reputation as a rogue agency that does whatever it wants wants despite the policies that come from DC.  I've had ICE officials in DC tell me that they can make policies, but they can't force the local offices to actually follow them.  

      The problem is, that's not true.  The administration has done nothing to try and gain control over the agency.  Law and agreements with the union prevent them from simply firing people, but there are other things they can do like move people around, promote people who actually follow those policies, and the like.  

      Where I work, we used to have a really good Field Office Director, probably the best in the country.  But he retired because he was tired of the culture that was in place and I know that he opposed some of the harsher tactics under the Bush Administration.  Instead of replacing him with someone who agreed with the policies coming out of DC, they replaced him with someone who is just freakin' insane.  

      •  This is exactly correct (0+ / 0-)

        There are good people in ICE and in CIS.  They are not all bad and I don't want to give the perception that I am demonizing the immigration service.

        But it is incontestible that many, many ICE staff see their role as getting people on a fast track out of the United States.  This is particularly true for those involved in deportation.  By and large, it is a conservative law-enforcement oriented culture.  The numbers are so high because the Administration is efficient, and also has provided ample resources to ICE.  They have been far better at turning the agency into a fearsomely well-run operation than at getting lower levels to excercise a little discretion.  

        “If the misery of the poor be caused not by the laws of nature, but by our institutions, great is our sin.” Charles Darwin

        by ivorybill on Thu Jun 14, 2012 at 04:44:12 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  This is such a serious issue with me. (16+ / 0-)

    It falls so far from where I think we should be as a nation and for my belief in this president.

    But anytime you create a "Department," then that department is going to pursue, mindlessly, the goals set for it.  And Homeland Security is hell-bent on creating a full time security state.  Hell, it is their NAME.  

    And part of that is the mindless, stupid, cruel abuse of human beings via under-qualified and poorly trained immigration enforcement.

    What a Police State Looks Like: "On one side: soft human flesh, unprotected human skulls, cardboard signs, slogans they chant, armed with belief in 1st Amendment rights. On the other: helmets, body armor, guns, batons, chemical weapons." -- JanetRhodes

    by YucatanMan on Thu Jun 14, 2012 at 01:28:41 PM PDT

    •  excuse me? You ought to compare the training (0+ / 0-)

      and education of HS and ICE agents to the Mexicans and Guatemalans who come to San Diego.

      Many, if not most, are illiterate, and they use schools, hospitals and welfare resources. I see tiny Indian women in line at the supermarket with welfare money (used to, they've switched to cards) who sometimes don't speak Spanish, let alone English.

      I live in Encinitas / Carlsbad. I have a lot of sympathy for them, I sometimes feed them or give them money. If you are so concerned about them, have them move into your house and you support them.

      German Constitution, Article 1 (1) The dignity of man is inviolable. To respect and protect it is the duty of all state authority.

      by Mark B on Thu Jun 14, 2012 at 04:10:49 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Perhaps I have more sympathy for the Guatemalans (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        YucatanMan

        Reagan did, after all, fund and support Efriam Rios Montt, who managed to kill something like 200,000 of those little Indian grandmas (and their husbands and kids) in the early 80's.   Hell, we even had a Republican congressman in my state who married Rios Montt's daughter.  The US has done plenty to mess with Central America, and the courts finally had to intervene because successive US Administrations selectively applied the Refugee Act and discriminated against legitimate Central American asylees.  It will be a long time before I cast the first stone, or any stone, at some 4'11" Mayan grandmother.

        To your other point... yes, some of the undocumented are recently arrived.  I am not convinced that they eat up such a disproportionate amount of public assistance, given their contributions to social security and their contributions to the economy in general... although I suppose in some jurisdictions the burden is higher.  We're looking for consensus, for reality-based immigration reform.  Sure, there's going to be deportations of some recent arrivals.  But the idea of most undocumented being welfare cheats is just not right... it's the same sort of rhetoric that the GOP still uses on black people, even though most recipients are low income whites.  If someone's built a life here, let them contribute openly.

        “If the misery of the poor be caused not by the laws of nature, but by our institutions, great is our sin.” Charles Darwin

        by ivorybill on Thu Jun 14, 2012 at 04:51:52 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Non-citizens cannot apply for "welfare money." (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        rosarugosa

        Maybe you just confuse all brown people with undocumented immigrants.

        And what difference does it make what language people speak?

        And are you seriously saying that because someone may be illiterate that the president is not obligated to keep his word to them - his publicity-seeking speeches containing promises about what he is doing and not doing?  Seriously?

        I think this pretty much says it all:

        If you are so concerned about them, have them move into your house and you support them.
        I travel back and forth through "immigration" several times per year and the thugs in DHS treat citizens and everyone else just as bad as they treat undocumented immigrants.  It is a rude, cocky, thuggish, swaggering and offensive attitude that exists throughout the organization.

        My statement was about the "charge" the Department of Homeland Security was give:  Secure the nation. And they are clamping down tighter and tighter on everyone, everywhere.

        My sympathies lie with our fundamental rights that are being usurped by an all-encompassing faceless bureaucracy dead-set on "securing" the nation. Freedom and civil rights be damned.

        What a Police State Looks Like: "On one side: soft human flesh, unprotected human skulls, cardboard signs, slogans they chant, armed with belief in 1st Amendment rights. On the other: helmets, body armor, guns, batons, chemical weapons." -- JanetRhodes

        by YucatanMan on Thu Jun 14, 2012 at 08:19:07 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  If I, As An Illegal Immigrant (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    belzaboo, swampwiz, brn2bwild

    Immigrant advocates on Monday condemned the administration's recent findings that a policy designed to reduce the deportations of otherwise law-abiding illegal immigrants

    Enter the country illegally and, in the state of CA, fraudulently obtain a fake or stolen Social Security card, then use that Social Security card to fraudulently obtain a CA driver's license, then use those two documents to fraudulently sign an I9 form stating that I am a citizen of the U.S. or am an alien authorized to work in the U.S. -- how is it that I am 'otherwise law-abiding'?

    promises on immigration reform

    One more time -- what does this mean? Mexico has dominated the U.S. family based immigration system for more then two decades at the same time the largest percentage of illegal immigrants are also from Mexico. What are you going to 'reform' which is going to change anything?

    I won't be coming home tonight, my generation will put it right - Genesis 9:3

    by superscalar on Thu Jun 14, 2012 at 01:54:25 PM PDT

  •  As with other rabid and unpopular Obama Policies (6+ / 0-)

    and actions, one can blame Obama for doing little of nothing and not using his power OR you can cite things like, as in this case, you have former Bush people salted all through the bureaucracy: DHS and ICE, most notably, are BUSH creations that for whatever reason Obama hasn't or hasn't been able to dismantle. So he 'goes with the flow' and signs off on it.

    Openly commits to the FAILED war on Drugs and tells people to forget marijuana legalization.

    Openly supports the drone war that IS going to take his name (Obama's Drone War)

    And DHS and ICE - and let's add the TSA - engaging in behavior that was nurtured under Bush, continuing completely unimpeded.

    That said, I don't think that actually hurts Obama since significant numbers of Americans think this shit is necessary.

    And no matter how bad Obama is with it, we have the choice to vote for him or a repub, and I'm not voting for a repub.

    Are you?

    The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men.

    by xxdr zombiexx on Thu Jun 14, 2012 at 02:01:28 PM PDT

  •  Putting the Tea Party in charge of immigration (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    poopdogcomedy, Aquarius40, swampwiz

    (as Romney would do) would mean mass murder, genocide.

    That's why the support for Obama is so high. The alternative means crimes against humanity in America so evil that it's incomprehensible.

    Latinos know that the militia nuts in the Tea Party would kill them all if they could.

    •  Dude, seriously? Demonizing the enemy is dumb (5+ / 0-)

      They don't eat children, and having Romney or the Tea Partiers in charge of immigration would not lead to mass murder and genocide. Think long and hard about what you are saying. Now think about REAL mass murder and genocide. Now think about how you've just trivialized real horrors in order to make some asinine political point.

      No, the Latinos DO NOT KNOW that the republicans would kill them all if only they got into power. If you are counting on them believing that, you're an idiot. But you aren't, I mean, you don't believe that at all, do you?

      What you are REALLY saying is "Don't blame Obama for this because Republicans are like Hitler." Screw that nonsense, Latinos know who to blame for this, and they are blaming him for this, and it is hurting his re-election chances. If you want to see your man re-elected, "Republicans are mass murdering Hitlers" is not the idea that's going to win this for us.

      •  You don't know the Tea Party (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Aquarius40

        Yes, it would lead to mass murder and genocide. They'd just start shooting people on the border like the Minutemen do, only they'd use actual police forces.

        Being ignorant of what the Tea Party is is your mistake.

        But don't also make the mistake of thinking Latinos and other minorities don't know what it is.

        They've seen it all their lives. They know the codewords. They know the culture these people embrace.

        It's a white supremacist movement, nothing less.

        You can blame Obama for his admin's deportation policies. Please do.

        Latinos aren't unaware of what Obama's admin is doing.

        But they seem to support him anyway. I contend it's because they know the alternative is unthinkable.

      •  PS, you can pretend the Tea Party isn't (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Miggles

        a white supremacist movement all you want.

        The problem though is that they've spent the last 4 years proving to everyone in the most insane language possible, in public, that they are.

        You just can't fool any minorities at this point.

        They've seen the Tea Party with their own eyes and heard it with their own ears. They've heard from the racists who lead the groups and how stand up for the groups on Fox, on news shows, etc... for 4 years now. Minorities aren't stupid, they know what they're seeing for what it is.

        •  They may be white surpemicists (0+ / 0-)

          Heck, they probably are, most of them anyhow. But that still doesn't make your premise any less laughable.

          •  Minorities aren't laughing (0+ / 0-)

            You can laugh about how Tea Partiers threaten murder as a way of life.

            But decent people don't find it funny.

            •  I'm a decent person, and I find your ideas funny (0+ / 0-)

              But I'm not Jewish. I'm sure anyone who had experienced real mass murder and genocide would be a little miffed at your trite comparison.

              •  I'm sure the decendants Africans and Native (0+ / 0-)

                Americans (ie African Americans and many Latinos) aren't surprised by your lack of decency. They know your brand of ignorance all too well. Just as they know genocide and mass murder.

                I'm sure many Jewish people don't appreciate someone of your character pimping out their pain to defend the Tea Party either.

                •  Oh please (0+ / 0-)

                  This is boring and you are silly, as well as being wrong. Take your trumped up outrage someplace else, it isn't helping our cause.

                  •  Outrage at indecent people like you (0+ / 0-)

                    who pimp out the pain of the Jewish community to defend the Tea Party is never misplaced.

                    These race issues aren't silly.

                    That's just the way you think about them, since you were shown be an insensitive opportunistic creep with no care for how you talk about the Holocaust.

                    •  Good day sir (0+ / 0-)

                      What are you trying accomplish? You seem to think this is a game, that you can "win" through slanderous insults and incoherent rage. It isn't.

                      We're done here. Didn't you get the memo? I'm ignoring everything from "alioop" from now on, as this user has proven themselves to be a childish troll with no sense of proportion. Buh-bye.

                      •  The Tea Party isn't a game (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        joe wobblie

                        It's a violent white supremacist movement.

                        And you pimping out the Holocaust to defend it isn't a game.

                        It's evil.

                        •  Two points (0+ / 1-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Hidden by:
                          joe wobblie

                          1. If the "Tea Party" were, as a whole, bent on genocide I doubt they'd wait for an election before getting started.

                          2. Do not presume to speak for African Americans, Latinos or First Nations. They are perfectly capable of speaking for themselves.

                          •  1. They haven't (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            joe wobblie

                            Your Tea Party uses and has used the law where they can to kill as many brown people as they can get away with. They're Dominionists and white supremacists, that's what they do.

                            2. I don't presume to speak for anyone, although I do presume to tell you that pimping out the Holocaust to defend the Tea Party makes you human slime. And I do presume to point out that Latinos' ancestors were victims of genocide if you're going to go on pimping out the Holocaust to defend a white supremacist movement largely focused on destroying the lives of Latinos and other minorities.

                          •  How piffling and overweeningly pompous... (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            alioop

                            do not presume to speak for them yourself!

                            ! The swinistic greed and racial hatred of the American ruling elite is abysmal !

                            by joe wobblie on Fri Jun 15, 2012 at 04:44:27 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Above is my riposte to WB Reeves. n/t (0+ / 0-)

                            ! The swinistic greed and racial hatred of the American ruling elite is abysmal !

                            by joe wobblie on Fri Jun 15, 2012 at 04:48:41 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Clearly you don't fence (0+ / 0-)

                            BTW, any justification for the HR other than personal spleen?

                          •  I made no such claim (0+ / 0-)

                            It was alioop who claimed to be speaking for them when he asserted they would endorse his/her views.

                            Accuracy ought to trump personal bias.

                          •  Dear Aunt Sally, (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            blueoasis

                               Your straw man fallacy has failed miserably.
                                alioop specifically states,

                            I  don't presume to  speak for anyone,
                            Furthermore, he made no such assertation that they would 'endorse his views'.
                            Logical accuracy always 'trumps' specious reasoning!

                            ! The swinistic greed and racial hatred of the American ruling elite is abysmal !

                            by joe wobblie on Fri Jun 15, 2012 at 09:51:37 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Alioop's denial is contradicted (0+ / 0-)

                            by his own previous assertions:

                            I'm sure the decendants Africans and Native Americans (ie African Americans and many Latinos) aren't surprised by your lack of decency. They know your brand of ignorance all too well. Just as they know genocide and mass murder.
                            He said he was "sure" he knew how they would react and  that their reactions coincided with his. This is appropriation plain and simple.The subsequent denial alters nothing.
                          •  alioops 'previous assertions' (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            blueoasis

                                  are ironclad statements of FACTS!
                            Genocide and mass murder are occuring in Africa right now!
                            The history of the Americas is replete with instances of genocide
                            and mass murder against indigenous populations of native Americans.
                            Their reactions against your entire lack of decency are assured.

                            ! The swinistic greed and racial hatred of the American ruling elite is abysmal !

                            by joe wobblie on Sat Jun 16, 2012 at 06:21:53 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  It isn't a question of fact (0+ / 0-)

                            Alioop asserts that he knows what such folks would say. He further asserts that what they would say agrees with his opinion. These are not factual assertions. They are a transparent attempt to elevate his opinions by "borrowing" the street cred of oppressed populations. This isn't a practice to be encouraged.

                            This exchange started out over the question of whether the Tea Party would carry out a program of genocide if Romney wins in November. Alioop seems to think so. I and others disagree. Historical and contemporary instances of genocide don't prove anything, one way or another, on this point.

                             

                          •  If you "don't presume to speak for anyone" (0+ / 0-)

                            you certainly have an odd way of showing it:

                            I'm sure the decendants Africans and Native Americans (ie African Americans and many Latinos) aren't surprised by your lack of decency. They know your brand of ignorance all too well. Just as they know genocide and mass murder.
                            So you were just kidding when you said you were "sure" you knew how African Americans, Native Americans and Latinos would react? I suppose the fact that their alleged opinions just happen to coincide with your own was part of the gag?

                            BTW, you really should read the sigs before you respond. I haven't said anything about the Holocaust so your accusation of "pimping" is completely misplaced.

                          •  I don't have to presume to speak for them (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            joe wobblie

                            to know they're factually well aware of Tea Party racism or that they factually know what it means to have ancestors who faced genocide.

                          •  It doesn't take a bucket full of brains (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            blueoasis

                            to be aware that the tea-baggers are a pack of greedy racist bigots!
                            All one has to do is look at the myriad numbers of photos of their demonstrations and the vile posters and slogans they always display!  
                            They and their despicable repertoire are enough to gag a dung beetle!

                            ! The swinistic greed and racial hatred of the American ruling elite is abysmal !

                            by joe wobblie on Fri Jun 15, 2012 at 10:08:43 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Not even the issue N/T (0+ / 0-)
                          •  Right (0+ / 0-)

                            Your comment had nothing whatever to do with trying to buttress your own opinion by appropriating the historical oppression of others and asserting that their views agreed with your own.

                            Sure.  

                          •  Nonsense (0+ / 0-)

                            I pointed out that Latinos experienced genocide because the human slime I was responding to was defending the Tea Party's abuse of Latinos by pimping out the Holocaust.

                            You can argue that jackass's point all you want, it just makes you sound like a bigot.

                          •  You appear to be operating (0+ / 0-)

                            out of your own personal dictionary. Have fun with  that.

                          •  You appear to not know what a dictionary (0+ / 0-)

                            is for.

                            FAIL

        •  Ok, look. Crazy and Insane, yes....Mass murderers (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          downsouth

          no don't think so.  My parents are both conservatives and I swear my dad has a gold flag with a snake on it hidden somewhere in the house...I just know it.  My dad says he won't vote for that "Liberal Bastard Romney" if his life depended on it.  That's right....He thinks Romney is too liberal for his vote. Fox news is blaring 24/7 on every TV in their house and my dad thinks Hannity is the Messiah.  

          Oh yeah....forgot to mention.... My mom and dad are as black as the night sky on a cloudy Halloween at midnight!  

          •  You learned nothing from Bush (0+ / 0-)

            and that makes you more guilty than some for what his culture of people will try to do in the future.

            Yes, they are mass murderers, if you give them half a chance and the power to do it.

            "Kick their ass, take their gas."

            500,000 dead people later, you learned nothing.

            Because you have the disease that affects American society: a unique power fueled sense of self-entitlement to not learn from your mistakes.

            Bush and his culture of Tea Party rednecks already proved they're mass murderers, that they're capable of it, using government power.

            And you'd let them do it all over again, to a lesser degree? Possibly, possibly not. But less than 500,000 isn't really a humane measurement for you to be using.

        •  Can I get in on this conversation? I think both (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          rosarugosa

          you and Seth have some good points.  First off, yes there are a lot of racist people in the Tea Party Movement.  There's a lot of them that are blatant bigots, there ones that are your neighborly bigots where they won't call you racial slurs to your face but they will always be suspicious of you and uncomfortable about having a minority live or work in the same neighborhood as them.  Then there are those who were raised this way and truly don't believe they are racists but the racist teachings they were brought up on are actual facts (which of course they aren't).  Now, yes there are members of the Minute Men that belong to the Tea Party and yes Teabaggers have proven to be more prone to violence and they are rabidly angry that they could strike and the Minute Men did spawn even more violent anti-immigration groups that have committed murder against latinos.  Read Markos' book, American Taliban, to get an idea of what I'm talking about.  Now, I don't necessarily think that all the tea baggers in congress are going to advocate that people get guns and go out on a crazy murderous rampage against Latino voters but the tea baggers in Congress would and could turn a blind eye to such violence committed by the very same people that voted them in.  The tea bagger congressmen could do away with gun laws and make access to guns and semi-automatics a lot easier.  There are those in the tea party movement that are worried that white people are becoming a minority in this country and refuse to be in the minority status.  So alioop, I understand your concern and fear but I don't fully agree with your all your concerns with tea party congressmen.  The people who vote for them I fear more.  Now Seth, I can understand your argument and I can see how you think what alioop is saying is ridiculous but I do think you are underestimating the hatred and bigotry that fuels the tea baggers  rage.  

          •  Being a racist who doesn't think they're racist (0+ / 0-)

            isn't really an excuse. Their form of knowing denial is somehow more repulsive to me than those that know how evil they are. That's the first thing.

            But it's by looking at the leaders of the Tea Party movements that we can judge them. And they are racists, almost all of them. Many are old school Republican operatives. Many are militia-oriented libertarians. Almost all of them are racists and have a record of racism on their blogs, twitter accounts, and in other public mediums. There's a reason for this. A very small band of corporate lobbyist backed racist political operatives reacting to Obama's election are the ones who went around the country finding leaders to start Tea Party groups, ie Tea Party Express.

            We don't need to debate how racist the average Tea Party redneck is. They're racist. But the real point is that their leaders are white supremacists, violent white supremacists at that.

            They would use armed government power along the border along the same beliefs that Bush used it in Iraq: that brown people deserve to die.

            We already have half a million dead people on our soul because of that.

            And people who refrain from making it clear just how dangerous these people are would risk letting the Tea Party have a crack at Latinos from the White House?

            We have a responsibility to be more realistic when it comes to human lives.

            We know what these rednecks are capable of. We don't have any excuses next time they commit crimes against humanity.

            •  Could you stop using classist insults (0+ / 0-)

              such as "rednecks"? Or don't you realize that it is an upper class epithet along the lines of "poor white trash"?

              It's all part of pretending that rich white folks have nothing to do with our problems.

          •  They're already turning a blind eye (0+ / 0-)

            to the violence against African Americans via "stand your ground."

            I would think the same is true in poorer urban Latino communities.

            When you use the term "could" with respect to this issue, it's misleading.

            It's already happening. Those are their values. Mass murder and clever genocide are part of their belief system AS  DOMINIONISTS

        •  a white supremacist movement? (0+ / 0-)

          You make me laugh . You really are clueless as to what you're talking about. Tell all the Blacks that i have stood with, talked with, eaten dinner with, marched with, that i'm a White Supremacist along with all the other Blacks, Latinos, Europeans, Russians, Asians and even Democrats that i've stood with to speak out against the Progressive/Socialist/Marxist ideology attempting to hijack this country.

          •   There are some connections, like the John (0+ / 0-)

            Birch society (which I think has some sort of white supremacy issues, but I am not entirely clear what they stand for) with the Tea Party. However, that doesn't mean that all Tea Partiers would commit mass murder of Latinos or that they approve of racism. My read on the Tea Party is that most of them want lower taxes.

            However, laws like the one in Arizona do make people wonder. The whole "looking suspicious" being connected with how you dress or if you have an accent.

            Also, remember, there is always a buildup to genocide. It doesn't happen overnight. There is a gradual brainwashing of the population combined with passing of laws outlawing certain rights.

            Also, most people don't approve of  a racist agenda, but we also know that slavery did exist in our own country. Go to Mt. Vernon and see the slave quarters. So, it is not an impossibility. Hopefully that would never happen, but it has happened in many places.

          •  Your leaders are white supremacists (0+ / 0-)

            Whether some minorities are ignorant of the fact that they're being used is another issue.

    •  So, the number of noncriminal deportations (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      AllanTBG, annieli, Larsstephens

      is down to what is was in 2006.

      Occupy the voting Booth!

      by anonevent on Thu Jun 14, 2012 at 04:14:12 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Thanks for the Scarce facts. nt (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      AllanTBG, Larsstephens

      There is only one planet suitable for human habitation in our solar system.

      by too many people on Thu Jun 14, 2012 at 04:16:51 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Context! Normalize the data so that it means (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      brn2bwild, Larsstephens

      what it means.

      Deportations may be up dramatically, and that may or may not be a good thing.  "Up" by itself is energizing to some, but nearly meaningless without further consideration.

      If deportations are up because ICE is more efficient in finding violent criminals in other lockups and grabbing them upon their release and deporting them, that's a good thing.

      There are those (rapists, predators, murderers, robbers, kidnappers, etc) that need deporting.  And there are plenty of those to keep ICE busy.

      The other important fact to note is that the non-criminal deportations are down.  That is likely a good trend.  The data may actually show ICE to be learning to be more efficient in targeting who gets the boot.

      But my point; so often a statistic or fact is shouted and immediately those hearing it take a position without normalizing the data.  And we know from experience, the traditional news readers are both too ignorant, stupid and lazy to do that for us, though it is their job.

      And I do notice that those in the immigration protest crowd can certainly spell better than the average teabagger.

      I think that Republicanism is revealing itself as a personality disorder, not so much an ideology." -- Naomi Klein

      by AllanTBG on Thu Jun 14, 2012 at 04:41:42 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Obama needs to (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    too many people

    address this.

  •  And all the while Obama laughs and laughs... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    allenjo

    You can almsot hear him ask "Who ELSE are they gonna vote for?"

    Welcome to Under the bus....

    "I'm not scared of anyone or anything, Angie. Isn't that the way life should be?" Jack Hawksmoor

    by skyounkin on Thu Jun 14, 2012 at 03:47:29 PM PDT

  •  Univision's Jorge Ramos criticizes Obama (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    FogCityJohn


    Univision's Jorge Ramos protests the Obama campaign's use of his image (and Univision footage) in a recent campaign ad.
    "In the last few hours, President Obama's reelection campaign aired a commercial using my image and Univision's image. I want it to be clear that I object to the use of my image and Noticias Univision's image in any electoral campaign. We have made this clear to Barack Obama's reelection campaign and the White House. We are making this a public statement of our nonconformity. We've always defended our journalistic independence and will continue to do so," Ramos said in Spanish in Univision's video above.
    This also got wide play this week.
  •  We can, and should, call out the Administration on (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    rosarugosa

    issues like this and I really would like him to do the "right thing" more often but stuff like deportations and drone strikes don't bother the majority of Americans right now.  They're all too concerned with the economy.  I am hopeful that things can improve in his second term but in order for these issues to be addressed and resolved, we as progressive activists need to persuade those who are centrist or non informed voters that Obama is making some wrong decisions here and that we need him to be brave and make the right calls.  If there is a large call for ending these deportations and drone wars from the American people and these topics become real campaign issues that could cost Obama his re-election, then we'll see change.  Obama himself said it best on The Colbert Report back in 2008, "This is a center right country that likes things the way they are until it really becomes a problem."  I have to agree with him on that.  I think the majority of people in this country are centrists, it's just a matter of which issues they lean to the left or right of.  

  •  The view from Santa Fe: more deportions, plz. (4+ / 0-)

    This is an unscientific sample, but here goes: all the Hispanics I know support deportations and are very unhappy about two things: undocumented workers depressing the wages for documented workers; and people making money here and sending that money to Mexico rather than recirculating it here.

    You can flame me below, but I'm just passing on what I hear.

    I, personally, would like to see an amnesty program, because there is no way you can deport 12 million people.

    •  no flame; I mostly agree. If you're not going to (0+ / 0-)

      change the law, and/or have free & unfettered immigration from every country, you've got to deport some people.  

      And Obama has made some concessions to not separating families.

      German Constitution, Article 1 (1) The dignity of man is inviolable. To respect and protect it is the duty of all state authority.

      by Mark B on Thu Jun 14, 2012 at 04:01:43 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I'm in Santa Fe... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      SantaFeMarie

      and I hear the same thing.  Have heard this for a very long time.

      I would rather spend my life searching for truth than live a single day within the comfort of a lie. ~ John Victor Ramses

      by KayCeSF on Thu Jun 14, 2012 at 05:15:04 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Marginalization (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    secret38b, Aquarius40

    President Obama must be proactive on immigration in order to win the support of the Latino community. The Republican Party is writing its own political obituary by consistently antagonizing Hispanic voters and gleefully embracing a narrative that paints Hispanics and immigrants as dangerous "outsiders" destroying America. Even Romney, once seen as the most sane among the GOP candidates on immigration, has taken up the dog whistle politics of the Tea Party.  http://www.sunstateactivist.org

  •  Obama will still win Latinos... (0+ / 0-)

    ...if he explains the truth about Mitt Scissorhands and the extreme hard right which is hell bent on denying freedom, equality, and jobs to anyone who does not look like Mitt Romney AND have as much money as him.

    I don't know what's wrong with Democrats that they are having trouble framing the race in terms that dramatic, but that's really what it's all about. Everything else is window dressing. Americans know the GOP is extremist. They want to write gay hatred into the Constitution. They have blocked attempts to get poor people jobs. They want to fire teachers, firefighters, and policeman.

    The GOP does not represent America the free. They only represent selfish rich men. And this needs to be pointed out.

  •  These deportations are immoral. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Miggles

    He is President. He is in charge. He can change what he wants to change.
    He should do what is right, rather than cynically  doing what seems politically safer.

    There is only one planet suitable for human habitation in our solar system.

    by too many people on Thu Jun 14, 2012 at 03:59:51 PM PDT

  •  Should or should not (0+ / 0-)

    Barack Obama adhere to the law concerning immigration and deportations?

    •  The law gives lots of leeway as far as detainment (0+ / 0-)

      and deportations go.  Why is something minor such as an invalid I94 which carries a penalty of a $100 fine being used as a justification for inhumane detainment and deportation?

  •  5th Column (0+ / 0-)

    Just wait for a GOPer false-flagged as a pro-Obama SuperPac starts putting out ads thanking Obama for deporting illegals.  That won't send folks running to R-Money but it could adversely impact turnout which is a frequent GOP tactic.


    My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right.—Carl Schurz
    Give 'em hell, Barry—Me

    by KingBolete on Thu Jun 14, 2012 at 04:06:15 PM PDT

  •  Welcome to the DFH boat (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TimmyB, Jazzenterprises

    "Who else you gonna vote for, (insert traditional Democratic constituency here)?"

    Join the anti-war folk, anti-secrets folk, anti-secret detention folk, environmentalists, etc. in the list of "professional lefties" that don't have anyone to vote for, just some privileged asshole to vote against.

    NOW SHOWING
    Progressive Candidate Obama (now - Nov 6, 2012)
    Bipartisan Obama returns (Nov 7, 2012)

    by The Dead Man on Thu Jun 14, 2012 at 04:08:25 PM PDT

  •  How many mythical "centrist" swing voters (0+ / 0-)

    are likely to be swayed to vote for Obama, who may have otherwise voted for Romney or not voted at all, by such a TRANSPARENTLY political policy?

    I suspect that the answer is very, very few voters, such that it's unlikely to swing a single electoral vote towards Obama--but may well swing a few districts or states towards a GOP congressman, senator, or local elected official, by alienating local Latinos where the GOP candidate isn't that conservative.

    And yet they're doing this anyway, mistaking the utterly irrelevant and laughable POSSIBLE approval of a small handful of beltway hosebags like Tom Friedman or Mark Halperin for actual political shrewdness (totally apart from the immorality of this policy given how it will hurt thousands of people needlessly).

    He's been doing the same thing on other issues, in order to look "strong" and "serious" in that utterly optical way that ONLY beltway hosebags seem to care about and not see through (and even they probably see through it):

    --Drone strikes

    --Intelligence leaks

    --Aggressively going after whistleblowers

    --Aggressively defending Bush-era GWOT policies against civil suits on bogus "states secrets" and "executive prvilege" grounds

    --Until fairly recently, speaking positively about austerity measures and the the need to reduce the deficit ASAP, even by cutting entitlement programs

    When is this president going to get out of the beltway and back in the real world where almost no one is impressed by such transparently cynical AS WELL AS simply BAD policies? Not just in pretty speeches, but in actual POLICY?!?

    "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

    by kovie on Thu Jun 14, 2012 at 04:22:03 PM PDT

    •  These centrists voters aren't mythical and I know (0+ / 0-)

      a lot of moderate voters who voted for Obama and could be duped into believing Romney is a moderate.  I also know moderate voters who do think SS and medicare do need to be restructured and have to have some cuts but are certainly not in favor of the Paul Ryan Budget.  Now I do believe the polling that SS and medicare are popular to the vast majority of Americans but some of the people polled might think that cuts will be so small that they won't notice them or they won't have any impact on their lives.  As for drone strikes, Intelligence links, whistleblowers and the other things you mentioned, a large portion of the American people don't care.  They're too worried about the economy and their jobs.  Also, the American people have the worst memory.  Now I'm glad to see that the majority of them still blame Bush for the economic woes but they didn't care about Valerie Plame or torture then and they won't care about it now.  To the average American, they probably think "Well the people that were tortured were probably terrorists who refused to talk."  9/11 brought out the worst in Americans and they still haven't gotten over it.  Now it's not acceptable that Obama continues these policies but it's not acceptable that our fellow Americans don't care or still support these issues.  So feel free to continue to criticize Obama about all of this, you should, but I urge you to also take control of this argument and get those that don't care or support these policies to not support them or change their view points.  The only real reason these issues are bigger is because it's a black guy doing it.  It's great that people on the left are holding their ground on these issues but these very issues are becoming bigger issues now because people who voted for Bush now give a shit but it's only because it's a black Democrat running the country and in their paranoid, delusional mindset, Obama is getting ready to enslave all the "good white Christians in America".  If McCain had won and was still doing all of this shit, these issues wouldn't be that big.    

      •  What makes you think I'm not doing both? (0+ / 0-)

        That is, arguing against these PR-based policies on merits and politics while also trying to convince people that they're bad policies that shouldn't influence them to vote for or against Obama one way or another.

        Also, while it might well be true that there are "moderate" and "centrist" swing voters who claim to care about these issues and that their votes will depend on how Obama and Romney stand on them, I feel fairly certain that there are far, far fewer swing voters who WILL based their votes on them. These people are fence-sitting not due to national security, immigration or birth control or abortion or gay rights (because seriously, people for whom these are top issues are rarely centrist or swing voters), but on issues that affect them personally, which these days is jobs and the economy.

        It's sort of like the stories you hear about how most people, when asked in polls whether they have anything against black people, say no, because they don't want to be seen as racist, but then are seen to be racist in how they answer other, indirect questions that track with racism. So I tend to discount certain types of claims that such voters make about how they're truly undecided. I think that most of them are pretty much decided, and what will tip the scales will be economic, not other issues. So no, I don't believe that Obama playing the part of tough guy law enforcement save the country from terrorists and illegals dude will get him many votes that he wouldn't otherwise have gotten.

        Also, almost no one who's still on the fence is going to decide to vote for Obama because he's announced that he's going to cut Social Security. Anyone who says they would is almost certainly lying. People don't vote for Dems because they're trying to look conservative. Well, not in states that are almost certainly going to go for Romney anyway, like Nebraska or Oklahoma.

        To the extent that Obama needs to win over swing voters to lock it up, he's not going to do it this way, but rather by convincing them that he's more likely to turn the economy around, and that he has better character and is more concerned about the interests of everyday Americans. But he's NOT going to win it by promising to cut Social Security or deport more illegals. The people who might be impressed by that aren't going to vote for him anyway, by and large.

        GOP Lite triangulation is, has been and always will be a net loser for Dems. What few elected positions it wins us always loses us way more by depressing the base vote, validating GOP policies and reminding voters that Dems stand for nothing.

        "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

        by kovie on Thu Jun 14, 2012 at 07:23:22 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Depression-era mass deportations (0+ / 0-)

    Depression-era mass deportations are going to be making a comeback –because we’re in anther Depression era...

    Nudniks need not apply.

    by killermiller on Thu Jun 14, 2012 at 04:30:54 PM PDT

  •  I'm no expert... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    poopdogcomedy

    ...but the Latino community is really, really diverse (I don't think they even agree on what they want to be identified as). I work with Latinos, documented emigrants and undocumented emigrants ( a few Canadians and undocumented Irish) and if you lined them all up they would all point in different directions on emigration policies. I expect the ones the can vote are as diverse. I think the administration knows that. In addition a good portion will vote the way the catholic church tells them to regarding  LGBT issues. Planned parenthood and all that goes with it is not a favorite issue of this portion. The ones I know don't love the activist so much too. I've heard the complaint that they are working for the lazy people. So its hard for me to believe this issue is going to be that important to them as a block when they decide vote or not vote or who for. Sure the Spanish speaking media will make noise and maybe some trouble but in the end they probably will come out and give Obama another chance if the alternative is made clear to them.

    Me? I'm more for the free movement of labor and talent as a commodity. Like a cowboy that can sing.

    I try not to come here more often then I do.

    by Maroon watch on Thu Jun 14, 2012 at 04:58:29 PM PDT

  •  Folks... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    poopdogcomedy, Larsstephens

    There are limits folks. The Latino pop knows that to get something, we are going to have to give something back. Blanket amnesty won't be tolerated or achieved. It won't happen. Deportations won't stop; in fact, they are likely to increase if some form of agreement is achieved. Say - if here in the US for greater than two years with employment - you are granted a path to citizenship.

    If the deportations stop - any agreement goes out the window. And I am a hard left Latino.

  •  I think I figured out how us Progressives can own (0+ / 0-)

    this argument and persuade people who are either centrists or don't care about this issue.  I was talking to my brother a while back who just doesn't like to vote in general.  I had to beg him to go to the polls and vote for Joe Sestak in 2010.  Now him and I were talking about immigration and he asked me why I care so much about the people who get deported.  His view, they get caught, they get caught and he understands why they would want to come to America but why not try and get in legally so they don't have to fear deportation.  Well I calmly explained to him that it takes a long time to become a citizen or even to enter this country legally and you have to think about where these people are coming from.  A lot of the illegal immigrants that come here are not only coming to America because they love our country but because the areas they live in have become so violent and corrupt that they can't wait a year or so to finally get into America legally.  Think about it.  If you lived in an insanely dangerous and violent part of Mexico like Mexico City or Tijuana, you wouldn't want to wait a year for you and your family to move.  You'd want to flee as soon as you can and have your child in America so they can be raised in the land of opportunity.  After that, my brother said, "Wow, that is a great point to make" and his views have changed.  We can make this a bigger issue, we just have to own the argument, explain it calmly and use the power of persuasion.  You may not convince everyone but if you can at least persuade one or two people, it helps make this a bigger issue and concern.

  •  A little anecdote... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    belzaboo, brn2bwild

    My wife is from Jamaica. She came to the U.S. on a J1 education visa that required her to return to her home country for two years after her studies ended. Part of her education included an opportunity to work in her field for a year, with an extension of additional 22 months available to her due to her field of study (Medical Technology). We got married before she finished school, knowing full well she would be required to return home. We planned that I would go with her, and after she graduated and began working we started saving money, believing we had almost 3 years to save up.

    The job she found was far from where she attended school, in a different state, and we racked up quite a bit of debt by moving. It wasn't until she applied for the extension that she learned that in order to qualify, her employer needed to participate in E-Verify, the VOLUNTARY federal employment verification program. At the time, the hospital she was employed by did not participate. Suddenly, we went from having another 22 months to save, to her needing to leave almost immediately. We had saved next to nothing, as we were trying to pay off our relocation debt. We had about $4000 in the bank, and the job market in Jamaica is horrible. Hard for her to get a job, impossible for me. We knew that I would not be able to go with her, where I would probably become a burden on her family, who already had limited means. This created a significant hardship on us. So we applied for what is known as a "hardship waiver", which would allow her to avoid the home residency requirement altogether. Anyone who has attempted this can verify that it is next to impossible to receive such a waiver. We had to seek out an out of state lawyer to represent us as none of the local attorneys would even touch it due to the extremely low success rate. I even had to travel out of state to meet with a psychologist who specialized in this sort of thing, so we could demonstrate said hardship.

    My wife had to leave while our case was pending. We tried to stay positive, believing that USCIS would recognize our hardship and grant her the waiver. It was not to be. About 5 months after she left, we received notice that although USCIS DID recognize our hardship, the Dept. Of State had denied our waiver due to "program and policy considerations". This was the only reason we were ever given. Knowing it would be years before my wife and I were able to be together again, I slipped into the worst depression I have ever known. I was heartbroken. I quit spending time with friends, and my work suffered. I started taking time off from work, which led to an even bleaker economic picture. My wife was unable to find a job in Jamaica for almost 9 months, finally accepting a job selling ad space in a local newspaper for commission, which was barely enough to cover her needs, let alone contribute to our finances. My serving job barely covered the basics for me here, and I began to have to sell most of our furniture to pay our bills, trying to salvage what I could of our credit.

    So there we were, our lives falling apart around us, when the unthinkable happened. Almost a year after she left, with another year to go, I was diagnosed with Hodgkin's Lymphoma. If I had been diagnosed a year earlier, I would have been covered under my wife's health insurance. But we lost that when she had to leave. The one silver lining was that my cancer helped the government to reconsider their denial of our waiver, and a few weeks later, they granted it, opening the door to my wife's return.

    It's been about a year since my diagnoses. I beat the cancer, and my wife and I are back together and rebuilding, but the whole ordeal did its damage. We just finished going through a bankruptcy, as my cancer treatment ran about $300,000 when all was said and done.

    The point I want to make is this. My wife and I suffered some of the worst things that we will probably have to suffer due to some of the most ridiculous immigration policies imaginable. But we recognized that if we wanted a future together, here in the U.S. with all its possibilities and opportunities, then we had to follow the letter of the law, no matter how difficult it made things. Therefore, I personally have little tolerance and even less sympathy for those who attempt to curtail the law. Those who are here illegally SHOULD be deported. Its only fair to people like us who follow the law regardless of how it affects us. That's just my two cents.

    •  Disagree with the last part. The law is wrong and (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      rosarugosa

      inhumane.  Just because people are undocumented doesn't mean that they should be treated so absofuckingly harshly when they run afoul of it.  That's immoral.  Of course, congrats to you and your family for making it through the system the right way.  I can say the same for my partner who now has a green card.  But let's face it: the system is horrible, and I have a ton of sympathy for people who being treated so badly, regardless of their status in the eyes of the law.

  •  I'll just leave this here (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    fuzzyguy, rosarugosa

    Inscription on the Statue of Liberty

    Author: Emma Lazarus

    Give me your tired, your poor,
    Your huddled masses, yearning to breath free,
    The wretched refuse of your teeming shore,
    Send these, the homeless, tempest tost to me,
    I lift my lamp beside the golden door.

  •  Sorry Kos (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    brn2bwild

    Illegal aliens are not supposed to be here. PERIOD.  If you are trying to advocate for allowing illegal aliens continuing to flout our laws out in the open with no duty of the government to enforce cases that comes to its attention, then I guess you are against the rule of law.

    Now, I'm not saying we need to do Gestapo like tactics to root out the illegals - nor pick them up while they are trying to medical care, etc.  But obviously these folks are getting caught doing something that allows the authorities to find out their immigration status - in all likelihood, something "regular" criminal (I use that term "regular" to point out that violating USA immigration laws is a crime in and of itself), or being caught in some type of work sting.

    But I wouldn't worry too much about the voting.  Unless Romney were to etch-a-sketch himself into stating that his platform is now to just stop executing the law on the books, he would be not getting any significant support.  The Democrats are the party that is open to allow more legal immigration (even though the Corporatist wing of the GOP wants that as well), the DREAM act etc.  The Tea Party wing of the GOP is almost like Himmler.

  •  I did not realize you had THIS much influence with (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mattc129

    Obama. I'm impressed! :-)

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