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Inquisition Seal
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition

Quoted by Bill Keller, the Catholic League's president, Bill Donohue (Ratzinger's Rotweiler, as Keller describes him) tells progressive Catholics precisely where he wants them to go—out of the Church:

Donohue notes that roughly a quarter of Americans identify themselves as Catholic. He reckons maybe half of those, the more conservative half, attend church regularly and contribute. “They’re the ones who pay the bills,” he said. “Can we afford to ignore the other half? I think we can.” And as for the unsettled religious orders, the nuns and priests who vowed allegiance and now preach dissent, why should the church put up with insubordination?

“Do we have more than a handful of nuns who have totally lost their moorings?” Donohue mused. “Oh, yeah.”

His point: “Quite frankly I believe, as Pope Benedict the XVIth said just before he became pope, that maybe a smaller church would be a better church.”

The American Catholic Church, and perhaps the Roman Catholic Church as well, now belong to the Bill Donohues of the world. Keller writes:
[W]hen he took charge of the Catholic League in 1993, Donohue could be dismissed as a conservative blowhard, one of those laymen who was, ahem, more Catholic than the pope. But the official church has moved far enough to the right that Donohue now speaks for its mainstream.

And what you learn if you listen to the Catholic Church in the plain language of Bill Donohue is that it is not about to change direction. Not in this century. The parishioners who hope for a kinder, more inclusive church, the nuns who are now being rebuked by the Vatican because they have doubts on subjects like gay marriage and the ordination of women — the church’s message to them is: Shut up or go. [...] Much as I wish I could encourage the discontented, the Catholics of open minds and open hearts, to stay put and fight the good fight, this is a lost cause. Donohue is right. Summon your fortitude, and just go. If you are not getting the spiritual sustenance you need, if you are uneasy being part of an institution out of step with your conscience — then go. The restive nuns who are planning a field trip to Rome for a bit of dialogue? Be assured, unless you plan to grovel, no one will be listening. Sisters, just go. Bill Donohue will hold the door for you.

Are you listening, E.J. Dionne?

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Comment Preferences

  •  And the Catholic Church wonders.. (52+ / 0-)

    ..why they are hemorrhaging members..

    Courtesy of the Weekly Standard: "Early on, we received this missive from a bright young conservative: 'I’m watching my first GOP debate…and WE SOUND LIKE CRAZY PEOPLE!!!!'"

    by Steve In DC on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 06:31:57 PM PDT

  •  Well It's Not As Though They Need Parishoners Any (25+ / 0-)

    more to fund their political agenda, now that the aristocracy has become our most powerful activist block.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 06:34:52 PM PDT

  •  Wouldn't it be nice (17+ / 0-)

    if the progressive Catholics told those of Donahue's ilk, "Don't let the door hit you on the way out!?" I guess it's not a very progressive sentiment though. Failing that, they should pull out and then see how the blowhards actually like it. I really doubt it's the conservatives that pay the bills.

    Twenty years from now, you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. Throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. --Mark Twain

    by Debby on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 06:37:11 PM PDT

    •  Unfortunately (20+ / 0-)

      Progressive Catholics are like the Nuns (and other women) in the church -- the heart of the institution , but largely dismissed and ignored.    There IS NO ROOM for progressive Catholics to have an effect on the Donahue/Ratzinger wing.

      I am an official confirmed Catholic, but don't look for me in the church.  I don't need the patriarchal and conservative leadership to tell me "don't let the door hit me on the way out."  I walked out during mass in 2003 and have not been back since.  I stayed even when I knew I was a feminist and it was an affront to my intellectual and philosophical underpinnings.  I stayed during the priestly abuse scandal, although I started delivering notes during offertory explaining that they would not receive one cent of my money (supposedly for charity) while they hid the abuse scandal, or used church funds to pay for legal defenses for abusive priests.  But in 2003 when the priest asked me to pray for the Iraq war during his homily, my husband and I looked at each other, said not a word, and LEFT.  We have never been back since.  In 2004 when the church refused to give Presidential Candidate Kerry communion because he was pro-choice, I sent a letter to the church saying it was a pack of hypocrites -- punishing Senator Kerry while the priest in my little archdiocese lionized war.  So much for the sanctity of life.

      I don't miss the church.  Lately, I thank my lucky stars that I left when I did... there is no hope for this institution.  It is run by a dangerous and misogynistic hierarchy, fueled by bigots and power-hungry maniacs, and I have no intention of trying to change it.  There is no reason for any sensible person to embark on a mission impossible.  Staying in the church would be akin to staying married to a serial abuser and hoping that one day he would change, or hoping that one day I could magically force him to leave.  There is only one answer in either case: walk out and don't go back.

      For the record: I am not an atheist; I love Jesus as much as before.... the original progressive liberal .  I just have no time for the so-called Christians...  

      I vote Democratic because I am a woman with self-respect , who rejects bigotry of all kinds, subscribes to science, believes in universal health care, embraces unions, and endorses smart internationalist foreign policy.

      by Delilah on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 07:27:02 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Delilah, there are options for you! (9+ / 0-)
        For the record: I am not an atheist; I love Jesus as much as before.... the original progressive liberal .  I just have no time for the so-called Christians...
        I understand your post, but please don't think all Christian churches operate like the Catholic Church.

        I was baptized a Methodist, sang for some years in Episcopal churches (because they have the best music -- yay for the Hymnal 1940!), and am now an ordained Elder in the Presbyterian Church (PCUSA). We have a few issues, but on the whole, we're a pretty liberal institution. Hell, if you want uber-liberals, find a Unitarian Universalist church.  When a UU church near me (in Northern Virginia) wanted to change the official name of their congregation, they said right out that one of the criteria was that they didn't want to offend their atheists!

        Anyway, we have lots of former Catholics in our  congregation -- so when you're ready, look for a denomination or church that just feels like home. There's a church somewhere just waiting to welcome you.

        "The corrupt fear us. The honest support us. The heroic join us." Jesse LaGreca (MinistryOfTruth),Tuesday, October 4, 2011.

        by gfre on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 07:41:16 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Or (12+ / 0-)

    They have now made "progressive Catholic" an oxymoron.

    Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable. - JFK

    by taonow on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 06:37:22 PM PDT

    •  Not really (12+ / 0-)

      Most of us Catholics are more concerned about social justice, helping the poor, etc. - "that Jesus stuff," as Jesse put it - than we are with who does what behind closed doors.

      "There is a difference between being wealthy and being out of touch. One is remembering where you came from. The other is not knowing where others came from." - BoiseBlue

      by ScottyUrb on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 07:02:44 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I disprove that statement. (4+ / 0-)

      And generally disapprove of this site putting a religious test on progresivism.  (These "Catholics suck" fp posts seem to be getting more and more common ... like the other faiths of America aren't occasionally embarrassed by their leadership).  

      The catholic league is a bunch of right wing hacks.  But there are many good catholic priests and layity who devote their life to silent service to others.  Moat catholics are still with team D as well.

      I am not going to throw the baby out with the bath water just because 2012 happens to be a presidential election year.

      Something Witty, Pithy, and Great.

      by firant on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 11:58:40 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I wonder (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        If Roe v Wade got reversed and abortion were illegal in all 50 states (just assume it happened) what would be the defining issue that the Donahues would latch onto?

        I figure it would be tax cuts for the rich.  You know, as a means to help the poor...  

        "Unseen, in the background, Fate was quietly slipping the lead into the boxing glove." P.G. Wodehouse

        by gsbadj on Wed Jun 20, 2012 at 04:13:22 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Sorry, I left the Church after the 1,000 child (26+ / 0-)

    molestation case...The fact that Bernie Law from up here in Boston was promoted (by the last Pope, no less) showed me all I needed to know about my "moral compass". Worship God, not these idiots who claim to speak for him is my new motto. Let them fade into irrelevance. Really, being lectured on "lost moorings" after the behavior of my former churches hierarchy (especially right in my back yard) just rubs me all sorts of angry...I would go on, but it's already been said ad naseum, what other organization could survive what these "leaders" did is the question I'll end with.

  •  They need to give up all of their (28+ / 0-)

    worldly possessions and go hang with that long-haired Jewish guy who turns water into wine.

    Strange days indeed. ~John Lennon

    by joanil on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 06:37:37 PM PDT

      •  Hear hear! (9+ / 0-)

        Strange days indeed. ~John Lennon

        by joanil on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 06:54:50 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Why couldn't he do beer instead? (6+ / 0-)

        Something hoppy but balanced... or maybe a wheat beer, since a person needs something to cool down on one of those hot summer days in first-century Roman Judea...

        "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." --Dom Helder Camara, archbishop of Recife

        by JamesGG on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 07:00:34 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Mead beer...well, that's so Egyptian. Wine as (6+ / 0-)

          good Mediterranean grapes would yield is what the good 'chosen people' preferred.  If Jesus had come to Germany, eh, maybe then beer.

          When life gives you wingnuts, make wingnut butter!

          by antirove on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 07:24:42 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Would love your recipe for wingnut butter (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            LSophia, bythesea, antirove

            Maybe that is a diary in itself.

            Strange days indeed. ~John Lennon

            by joanil on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 07:36:54 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Wingnut butter can be made many ways, just (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:

              requires availability of wingnuts and a propeller head with the ability to rapidly and patiently interact factually, logically and reasonabily, injecting rationality with a sound understanding of history sufficient to displace embedded truthiness toxins. It is not for the faint of heart or impatient, or for those who lose their cool easily.

              So, take one DKos propeller head (2 or more if able to coordinate), mix with 1 or more Teahadiis, the sort with ripe heads, already bloating with rage. Combine carefully in a confined space with no easy escape and to limit risks to non-participants, and allow internet access.

              Whip in facts, logic and reasonable arguments at a pace a bit faster than Tehadiis brains can process, slowly inducing a pureed state that naturally heats * to just above water's boiling point.  The object here is a slow, well-controlled explosion, sort of like popcorn, but slower.  You need to carefully reveal their latent criminal tendencies and treasonous leanings as you proceed to heat things up. Stay in control and focused. Once it's clear you've reached the boiling point where Teahadii brains have been compelled to expand with a mushrooming effect, mix in a good vegetable oil, peanut oil works well (unless allergic) to ensure lubrication and stable results. The amount you put in can determine whether you get creamy smooth or chunky results.  Pour into heavy duty mixing bowl/machine and let it mix on high for 15 minutes or so. Let congeal in a cool dark place, covered with cheese cloth, allowing any latent toxic gases to freely release. You may choose to centrifuge your wingnut butter before cooling.

              Apply spread to toasted thick slices of hot toasted Bavarian dark rye bread, or perhaps a pumpernickel bagel, although start with a thin application until taste is acquired. Don't toast until bread is dried out--you'll want a good moisture content in the slice. Yes, you could substitute a whole grain waffle.

              Pile on suggested condiments such as a tart raspberry, crab-apple, boysenberry or loganberry jam; top with sweet whipped cream (not synthetic, vanilla or chocolate flavor) or goat yogurt. Liberal sprinkles or food glitter are optional. Chase with a tall frosted glass of good cold hard apple cider (of course we'd prefer organic).  You might want to stock up on a case or two or keg. It may require multiple chases of the cider to get through one serving.

              Personally, I have had to interact with computer IT types, and some of the noxious types who imagine themselves masters of their universe, as fine outstanding specimens of carefully applied libertarian philosophy, and fans of boot-strapped self-reliance and being self-taught to meet their own standards of educational perfection, love the idea of concealed carry, and affordable women.  Yes, these are class A narcissists, jerks, assholes, the sort of guy you'd never want your daughter or sister to ever have to deal with, except as perhaps a movie character.  Some have strong religious beliefs, some are superficially religious, whatever seems consistent with prevailing conservationism. They are often ditto-heads, racists, sexists, hate the poor, hate the 99% of fellow citizens lacking their own sparkling qualities, and oddly feel entitled to these angry feelings as if they were deep moral convictions, and esteem the expression of outrage as the most potent argument in their arsenal and the dramatic confirmation of their high inner moral values, even if it seems loud, obnoxious and demeaning to others--they're just that tough, resolute and unyielding--real red-meating eating overweight men in a world of pasty doughboys. They hate the H1-B visa programs which allow foreigners to come in to take jobs from Americans--but see that as a big  bad flaw of big government, not of corporations who lobby government so hard to secure those positions. Even though they may have jumbo underwater mortgages or shrunken 401(k) plans, they still insist we all need to privatize Social Security so we can 'profit' huge from 'investing' in a deregulated international stock market. And what can be smarter or more American than being the captain of your own stock portfolio and taking on that so very promising risk/benefits gambit?  [sigh]

              * Failure to bring wingnut heads to a proper boiling point, where toxins are safely released, could induce zombie like symptoms, like a desire to rid the Earth of brainy folks, a strong drive to spread their infection to others, a fascination with Fox and AM talk shows, a careless attitude towards people with guns and hefty bladed hardware, and an appearance which rapidly decline since it won't matter as they are compelled to believe that the End of the World is nigh and the Rapture just around the corner and they'll be able to munch on Jesus for eternity. On the plus side, you may be allowed to ride on the roof of Romney's Tour Bus or become Fox News pundit (after much make-up and blonde wig) while awaiting the Rapture.

              When life gives you wingnuts, make wingnut butter!

              by antirove on Wed Jun 20, 2012 at 12:27:11 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  You'll have to settle for Katie Luther (0+ / 0-)

            She was a master brewer.

      •  That jerk the Anti-Christ (13+ / 0-)

        showed up at my house and turned all the wine into water.  I hate that asshole.

        "We have to remain constantly vigilant to prevent raids by those who would selfishly exploit our common heritage for their private gain." Harry Truman

        by Helena Handbag on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 07:24:09 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I think the metaphor of "The Mission" (10+ / 0-)

    is appropriate here, with the corrupt Vatican and the Cardinals and their stooges on one side, and the nuns (the sergeants of the Catholic church)  and Franciscans on the other.

    I was seeing what Adam had seen on the morning of his creation - the miracle, moment by moment, of naked existence. --The Doors of Perception, Aldous Huxley

    by Wildthumb on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 06:38:50 PM PDT

  •  And we Episcopalians will gladly welcome them... (23+ / 0-)

    ...with open arms.

    (The progressive Catholics, that is. We'd welcome the Catholic League types too, of course, but I don't think they'd be too happy in the Episcopal Church.)

    "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." --Dom Helder Camara, archbishop of Recife

    by JamesGG on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 06:39:58 PM PDT

  •  so the Catholic League invalidates the DH as (9+ / 0-)

    well as inter-divisional play making the recognition of other leagues another Counter-Reformation. We have entered the age of the juiced ball and chewing tobacco are not the only bad habits for League President, "Wild" Bill Donahue described by Kathy Griffin as the "one guy (movement) with a computer".

    Pierre Le Gros the Younger (1666-1719), Religion overthrowing Heresy and Hatred

    slutty voter for a "dangerous president"; Präsidentenelf-maßschach; Warning-Some Snark Above"Nous sommes un groupuscule" (-9.50; -7.03) "Sciant terra viam monstrare." 政治委员, 政委!

    by annieli on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 06:40:46 PM PDT

    •  Sorry. Nice statue, but (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      Religion (and the idea of heresy)  is the primary CAUSE of hatred.

      Religion of all kinds is the course of most human strife. All the big hatred got their start and are fueled by religion: Racial bigotry, homophobia, class warfare, the war on women, nationalism, and the list goes on and on. There isn;t a single horror perpetrated by humans that is not justified by religion and promoted by it., war and torture being among the most egregious.

      “Mankind can never be free until the last brick in the last church falls on the head of the last priest.” - Voltaire
      Mind you, I am not indicting God or the search for spiritual fulfillment. Religion is not god and the priests certainly are not god, though they would like you to believe an attack on them is an attack on god. It is not. That is one of their primary blasphemies and evils.
      Anyone who thinks god needs defending, doesn't grasp the concept. -- anonymous
  •  For a church, it's amazing (16+ / 0-)

    that they've never even pretended to care about people, ie the 99% who support the hierarchy in luxury. Yet people continue to support them.

    The church sex abuse cases clearly showed the indifference of the 1% in Rome. They cared about covering up, not about the children who had been harmed.

    I hope more and more Catholics wake up and ditch this antiquated institution.  

  •  Bill Donohue (17+ / 0-)

    Master of turning the faux outrage into a nice direct mail $500-$700k a year job for himself.

    Doubt he believes a word he writes.

  •  awesome (16+ / 0-)

    by all mean, keep marginalizing yourselves, boys!

    Die with your boots on. If you're gonna try, well stick around. Gonna cry? Just move along. The truth of all predictions is always in your hands. - Iron Maiden

    by Cedwyn on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 06:42:53 PM PDT

  •  I went out the door about 20 years ago. (17+ / 0-)

    And I made sure it didn't hit me on the way out.  Nothing has happened in those past two decades that would make me consider returning.  Nothing.

    •  I left about 15 years ago (8+ / 0-)

      I didn't let the door hit me on the way out either.   I only wish I'd taken the step of actually resigning from the Church while I still could.  I've been told that canon law was changed recently so that you can no longer officially quit the Church.  Does anyone know if that's true?

      •  Oh, by the way... (5+ / 0-)

        I almost became a nun about 30 years ago.  I was that serious about the Church, but I was always on the progressive side.

      •  I never thought about getting unbaptized, (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Munchkn, Only Needs a Beat, LSophia

        so to speak.  Walking away was enough for me.

        Besides, I wouldn't be surprised if they came up with a hefty "resignation fee."  If they are going to send people away, why not monetize the exodus?

        •  I don't think you can get unbaptized (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          foresterbob, Munchkn, rosarugosa

          but you can certainly "lapse" as a Catholic, should you choose.

          •  You used to be able to renounce your baptism (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            LSophia, CherryTheTart, foresterbob

            A lesser step would be to have yourself removed from the Church rolls.  It was, I'm told, quite difficult and required the bishop's approval.  I don't think that you can do it any longer.  

            Some of my ancestors were members of the Court of King Henri IV of France.  When he was excommunicated, he turned around and excommunicated the Pope.  Henri remained a Huguenot at heart.

            •  Just commit a heresy (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              OldGrandet, Munchkn

              And the church will excommunicate you.

              Of course, most of the old sins have now become matters of doctrinal faith. At least for the hierarchy.

              •  I don't think you should have to commit heresy (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:

                I formally left the Catholics over the Raleigh, NC diocese's passionate support of NC's anti-gay constitutional amendment. I wrote to them to say to remove me as a member of their church and mentioned the reason in a single sentence. I haven't heard that I've been excommunicated, but I'm not sure if they would tell me directly if I was.

                Still, it's creepy that you can't leave; you have to be thrown out. Cultish, and part of a power game over who's in charge of people's faith and religious affiliation. I wonder if I'll get a letter saying that I can't quit, because they've kicked me out.

              •  How about I commit apostasy? (0+ / 0-)

                I consider myself a Buddhist now.

      •  I tried and failed (10+ / 0-)

        You have to get yourself excommunicated. I wrote to the Bishops of DC, where I live, Rochester, NY, where I was baptized and Springfield, MA, where I was confirmed. I explained I didn't believe in the Pope, in the Church, in transubstantiation, in the divinity of the rabbi Jesus of Nazareth or any of that. I also told them I was gay and would not stay, even just officially, a member of a church that claimed my soul was defective - this was right after Ratzinger declared gay men and lesbians could not receive the sacrament of Holy Orders, which was on top of not being able to receive the sacrament of Marriage. Suddenly the Church was declaring that there were human beings with defective souls - quite a frightening prospect.

        The Bishop of DC ignored me, the Bishop of Rochester referred me to Courage - the Catholic group that helps gay people live lonely celibate lives (cause that worked so well for the 20 - 50% of priests who fail at their own such vows) - and the Bishop of Springfield sent me the nastiest, vilest preachy letter about how horrible I was for being gay and how the Church was my last hope, blah, blah, blah. Two weeks later that Bishop suddenly announced his retirement for a "heart condition." Then he turned up at that "treatment facility" in MD the Church had for abusive priests - where they most assuredly did not treat cardiac problems. Hypocritical POS.

        A government that denies gay men the right to bridal registry is a facist state - Margaret Cho

        by CPT Doom on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 07:50:04 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I thought there was a court ruling that in the USA (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        any individual has to be provided the ability to formally leave any religious group at his or her request. It was cited a lot back when a few Kossacks left the Mormons over Prop 8.

        Prayers and best wishes to those in Japan.

        by Cassandra Waites on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 10:41:15 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I so agree! (6+ / 0-)

      It has only been 8 years for us.  We were trying so hard for our kids and parents.  We just couldn't handle it.  Our kids are fine and our parents managed too!

  •  Nope, EJ will ignore you.... (14+ / 0-)
    Are you listening, E.J. Dionne?
    Nope.  He thinks that there can be "constructive" dialogue and maybe even bipartisan compromise within the church.  Uh, no.  
  •  Donohue has managed.... (19+ / 0-)

    Donohue has managed (with help from the Vatican) to take a 2000 year old instutition and dumbed it completely down to a simplistic platform of anti-abortion rhetoric, an obsession with gays (especially anal sex), and saving the lives of stem cells in petri dishes.  

    The Catholic Church doesn't care about anything else except gay people, stem cells, abortion, and ignoring pedophiliac priests.  

  •  Donohue is on well-trodden ground (5+ / 0-)
    We must follow the rule: Better fewer, but better. We must follow the rule: Better get good human material in two or even three years than work in haste without hope of getting any at all.

    Romney '12: Bully for America!

    by Rich in PA on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 06:44:58 PM PDT

  •  I think that it would be best (5+ / 0-)

    if there were no catholic church.

    Or no church, for that matter.  

    Then the U.S. and the world could see some progress.  

    Just my two cents here.  

    •  Folks like the (13+ / 0-)

      late Rev. Martin Luther King, Desmond Tutu, and the late Oscar Romero would probably have a different opinion.

      At its heart, a church is no different from any other affinity group -- it's a gathering of people with a shared purpose and common goals. The problem arises when those goals involve trampling other people's human rights.

      Mitt Romney: the Etch-A-Sketch candidate in the era of YouTube

      by Cali Scribe on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 06:56:48 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  nailed it (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Munchkn, Only Needs a Beat, LSophia
        At its heart, a church is no different from any other affinity group -- it's a gathering of people with a shared purpose and common goals. The problem arises when those goals involve trampling other people's human rights.
        I think this should be in Top Comments.

        Where are all the jobs, Boehner?

        by Dirtandiron on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 07:02:32 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I would like to say here (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          that I respect everyone's right to believe what they want.  For the longest time (being raised in Catholic schools were I got As and Bs but Cs in religion) I really believed that everyone would live and let live.  But then things started changing for the worse, and my rights and those important to me had their rights being trampled on.  

          So I decided to start fighting back.  And I saw that the enemy was the right wing religions.  And  to get to them, I decided (probably along with many others) it was time to wage war (figuratively speaking)  It was time to get on the rooftops, and shout out the horrors, and evilness, and how delusion religion is.  Go after all of those politically who are  willing to trash human rights, start firing away and take no prisoners with those on the right.  All ready for battle.

          But then - a bunch of people who claim religion and that they're progressive and say they are not like those on the right stand up right in the middle of the line of fire.  And  then, well, it seems that  I can't fire, because my instincts don't want those people to be hurt. So I really can't do anything.  

          Yet those on the other side, well, they now can claim how religious the U.S. is, and how we start congressional sessions with a prayer, and how our currency mentions God.  They have no problem using their human shields, and just continue going on as usual trashing rights of those they don't like.

          I'll probably get creamed here for saying this, but I feel that those of my fellow Kossacks (and similarly those who aren't Kossacks) who claim to be religious and progressive are just as much of a problem in our society as the religious right, because you (whether you realize it or not) enable them to go on with their horrible political agenda.

          That said, I'm listening.....

          •  Did you read this part? (0+ / 0-)
            The problem arises when those goals involve trampling other people's human rights.

            Where are all the jobs, Boehner?

            by Dirtandiron on Wed Jun 20, 2012 at 01:01:47 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Yes I did (0+ / 0-)

              and unfortunately, when those of us who want to battle this trampling of human rights using the weapons of logic and compassion against those of superstition and intolerance who are trampling those human rights, it's those calling them themselves progressive and religious that get in right in the middle with their superstition.  Then those with the logic and compassion realize now they don't want to hurt those only with superstition.  And those with both superstition and intolerance and have no problem exploiting those with only superstition...... and the trampling of other peoples human rights continues.....

              In this day and age, if anyone is religious, they are being used in horrible ways, and don't even realize it.

          •  I didn't mean to seem like I was defending (0+ / 0-)

            Bill Donohoe or his supporters. I meant in defense of the folks (like me) who he is telling to get lost.

            Where are all the jobs, Boehner?

            by Dirtandiron on Wed Jun 20, 2012 at 01:30:38 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  You don't even realize it (0+ / 0-)

              but you are defending BD and his supporters.

              •  How am I defending that jerk? n/t (0+ / 0-)

                Where are all the jobs, Boehner?

                by Dirtandiron on Wed Jun 20, 2012 at 02:40:27 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Just by being religious (0+ / 0-)

                  (and I'm assuming that you are)  

                  What your religious beliefs actually are - they are irrelevant here because the religious right only needs your religious status as justification for what they do.  And any attempt by someone like myself to marginalize them and put an end to their loathsome acts with logic and compassion only seems to get shut down by those who are religious.  And unlike them, I choose not to exploit those who I really have no battle with, but those on the right are masters of exploitation and changing the nature of the battle to now make it between those who are religious and those who are not.  

      •  Those that you mention above (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Munchkn, Only Needs a Beat, LSophia

        were more than religion.  They were courageous and charitable thinkers, and the values they preached were far more than any religion.

        Yes, I can agree with you that there are many churches that do fantastic deeds for others.  

        However, where those who belong to a church or religion look to a higher power outside of themselves to guide them, I believe that it is up to all of us as individual to look insides of ourselves..... and we can find that higher power there to do all fantastic deeds for the good of our fellow human beings.  

    •  You are so correct ~ (4+ / 0-)

      The elimination of formal religion would truly remove most of the world's problems.  

      •  What makes you think that? (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        tikkun, schnecke21, CherryTheTart

        The financial elites who are causing most of the world's problems aren't exactly renowned for their deep religiosity...

        "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." --Dom Helder Camara, archbishop of Recife

        by JamesGG on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 07:02:04 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I would beg to differ (4+ / 0-)

          I believe that it's those financial elites who (whether they believe or not) are using the churches/religion to further their political goals.  

          And those who have a lot of money.... and a lot of religion...
          watch out for most of them.  

        •  What makes me think this is: (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          A good friend of mine from Colorado is from Iran.  He has seen it and truly believes it.  He is my age (almost 50) and his 2 sons were born in the US.  He and his wife are lovely people and we are close to them.  Unfortunately (as in my name) we had to leave CO and move to TX for my husband's job.  

          I am sure you are partially correct and I am partially correct too.  Organized religion does nothing but separate.  There is no reason for that.  If we weren't all separated, there would be fewer wars.  I know I am idealistic, so forgive me for that.

  •  I think the Catholic church needs some of the (7+ / 0-)

    Organizing for America philosophy right now, "respect, empower, include".

  •  "Smaller is better" What? (13+ / 0-)
    “Quite frankly I believe, as Pope Benedict the XVIth said just before he became pope, that maybe a smaller church would be a better church.”
    Is the Church a hospital for souls, or an exclusive club, like a fraternity or country club?

    Where are all the jobs, Boehner?

    by Dirtandiron on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 06:48:17 PM PDT

  •  Perhaps they should ask Queen Spider for advice (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Only Needs a Beat
  •  Me to progressive Catholics: (10+ / 0-)

    The Episcopal Church welcomes you.


    Mitt Romney: the Etch-A-Sketch candidate in the era of YouTube

    by Cali Scribe on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 06:52:23 PM PDT

  •  I gave up the Catholic Church for 2 reasons: (14+ / 0-)

    First ~ we were actually asked to Vote for Bush in 2004.  It didn't come from the Priest but from one of the lay people doing a reading.  

    Second ~ on Mother's Day being asked to sign a petition that would be sent to the governor of Colorado to outlaw abortion.  I am an atty and know this isn't how it is done, but the look on the woman's face when I said, "There is no way I would sign that." was priceless.  

    So our son made his first communion and nothing else after.  Our daughter was done at Baptism.  We are all good!!!

  •  2 Fewer (14+ / 0-)

    Both my niece and I left the Catholic Church in the last few years. I was taught by activist priests and nuns fighting for farm workers rights. I do not support what the church has become. Neither does my niece. We both belong to an activist Episcopal Church here in North Carolina.

    "A dreamer is one who can only find his way by moonlight, and his punishment is that he sees the dawn before the rest of the world." Oscar Wilde

    by michelewln on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 06:54:19 PM PDT

  •  My late step father was a life long devout (10+ / 0-)

    Catholic and I'm thankful that he passed before the child molestation cases became public. It surely would have broken his heart.

    I've never had loyalty to any church or religion, I have no idea what it feels like, but I've seen it in action through my step dad. I feel for people who consider themselves members of the church who have not been told they aren't welcome.

    Donahue is an asshat.

    "The scientific nature of the ordinary man is to go on out and do the best you can." John Prine

    by high uintas on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 06:56:02 PM PDT

  •  Do they still get to call (6+ / 0-)

    themselves catholic?

    all morals are relative, but some are more relative than others.

    by happymisanthropy on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 06:57:41 PM PDT

    •  Roman Catholic, (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      happymisanthropy, Munchkn, Ckntfld

      with an emphasis on Roman, and unquestioning fealty to the Bishop of Rome.

      Conservative popes have been appointing conservative bishops and cardinals for 30 years or so, so the church leadership has become more like Bill Donahue than John XXIII.

      A public option for health insurance is a national priority.

      by devtob on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 07:58:03 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Since more than 4 out of every 5 of us Catholics (12+ / 0-)

    believe contraception is morally acceptable, and since many believe Obama is actually a decent President, the conservatives who claim to speak on behalf of Catholicism must be feeling quite lonely. Hence this.

    "There is a difference between being wealthy and being out of touch. One is remembering where you came from. The other is not knowing where others came from." - BoiseBlue

    by ScottyUrb on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 07:00:56 PM PDT

  •  Um... (9+ / 0-)

    My mother in law is very involved in her church.  Teaches confirmation classes, organizes charity drives etc...

    She is very progressive.  Believes in birth control, is a huge Obama supporter, and loves her gay son and his husband a lot.

    I think he'll find a lot of progressive members are attending church every Sunday as well.

    Also, I can kill you with my brain.

    by Puffin on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 07:01:02 PM PDT

    •  Yes, my 87-year-old father (9+ / 0-)

      is one of them. He's Progressive as hell, and Catholic as hell too. Hm, maybe I could have worded that better. ;)

      Strange days indeed. ~John Lennon

      by joanil on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 07:14:10 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Yes, (9+ / 0-)

      there are many US Catholic churches that still run their show pretty independently of Rome.  But I do see a tightening of the screws.  Our most progressive Catholic church here, has changed several things, and not for the better, to stay out of the cross hairs of the hierarchy.  They are small things for the better part, so far.  Things that were allowed at funeral services before, are no longer allowed.

      When my good pal died of breast cancer years ago, everyone was welcome to speak at this church.  No longer true.  Now only the father can speak.  Just one example.

      IMO, this pope is not a good thing for the Catholic church.  Very backwards looking.

      •  Small things here and there (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Munchkn, Dirtandiron

        When my father died last year (who was a devout, lifetime catholic and an active person in the church), we found out a lot of the little changes that are bringing the church back to the old days. Little, symbolic things. Of course I wanted to say a few words at the funeral, and the priest said it would be okay as long as I kept it down to about 3 minutes because I didn't get to give the eulogy; only a priest can give the eulogy. Even if that's true, why tell it to a grieving family? "You can talk, but your words aren't as important as the priest's" is what I heard.

        The other thing that pissed us off: we had a huge basket of get-well cards from his time in the hospital. As a sign of gratitude to the people who had been supportive, we wanted to bring up that basket and put it with dad's ashes at the front of the church. That was out of the question -- they gave excuses from "there's no suitable container to put them in" to "it's just against the rules." Were I not grieving and a mess, I'd have taken them up during the service anyway and challenged the priest to turn me away.

        These are some of the ways that they're cracking down on The Rules from the vatican. The spiritual needs of the people are not on the list of concerns.

    •  For now. Just wait until the Bishops decide (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      to require every woman attending be tested for the presence of birth control in their system.

      There is no saving throw against stupid.

      by Throw The Bums Out on Wed Jun 20, 2012 at 08:16:30 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I'm not a Catholic... (12+ / 0-)

    ...but it's a sad sight to see the Catholic Church divided against itself.

    I live in a small town of roughly 3,000 people in the east central part of Illinois that was originally settled by Catholics, and there are usually only 10-15 people who attend Mass on a weekly basis these days. The town's K-8 parochial school closed a couple of years ago due to declining enrollment. The local Catholic church has an electronic sign in front of it asking people to "protect the First Amendement" as a way of criticizing to the ACA contraception mandate.

    "We don't have government anymore, we have an auction." -Lori Compas

    by DownstateDemocrat on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 07:03:10 PM PDT

  •  Most have left or are about to (6+ / 0-)

    It's sad but the only people left in the few pews that aren't slated for closure in NYC are filled with immigrants and old white people.

  •  Try the American variety of Superstitious Nonsense (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Ckntfld, cany

    Same male domination with a real taste of batshit crazy beliefs...

    See you on Kolob!

  •  Time for an Episcopal Roman Ordinariate? (5+ / 0-)

    Probably not, since the Book of Common Prayer and the Nicene Creed are our instruments of unity, and in the first is a historical mention of the Thirty-Nine Articles, which denounces Catholic teachings at several points.  The differences between the progressive Catholics that Donohue and Ratzinger oppose do not involve Marian devotions, prayer to the saints for intercession or the existence of Purgatory.  

    We could certainly offer hospitality and the use of our premises to disgruntled Roman Catholics who wish to worship according to the rituals of their choice.  St. John's Episcopal parish in Lafayette hosted the Macedonian Baptist Church (a conservative denomination that's historically African-American) for a while, and now they are the place where Mennonites meet to worship.  In lieu of rent, they are asked to contribute to the food pantry;  it is assumed that Episcopalians of the parish are welcome to their services as well.

    "Politics should be the part-time profession of every citizen who would protect the rights and privileges of free people and who would preserve what is good and fruitful in our national heritage." -- Lucille Ball

    by Yamaneko2 on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 07:07:02 PM PDT

  •  heh.. purity is ok in politics, but not religion? (0+ / 0-)

    One of the goals of Daily Kos is to "elect better Democrats".. oust the DINOs.. primary out the Blue Dogs!

    Yet, that sentiment is somehow abhorrent when it comes from Catholics?  How hypocritical.

    I left the Catholic Church 40 years ago for a variety of reasons.

    But, I still admire a push for purity in Catholicism.  Let those who would try to water down the core beliefs leave.. go elsewhere.  That is as it should be... a religion or even a political party/movement that sacrifices its beliefs for the sake of inclusion is doomed.

    •  If they were limited to people who were foolish (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Munchkn, Dirtandiron

      enough to buy the doctrine completely they would lose most of their followers.

    •  I think it's a matter of what is crucial (8+ / 0-)

      What are the core teachings of the Church?  Is it what Jesus taught in the Gospels?  Or is it a bunch of issues on which Jesus was silent?  Jesus never said a word about homosexuality or abortion, but he said plenty about caring for the poor and feeding the hungry.

      There are way, way too few homilies preached on the Beatitudes.  This goes for both the Catholic Church and the Protestant churches.

      •  Beatitudes are not the problem.. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        As the article stated:

        The parishioners who hope for a kinder, more inclusive church, the nuns who are now being rebuked by the Vatican because they have doubts on subjects like gay marriage and the ordination of women — the church’s message to them is: Shut up or go.
        Abortion should be included in this as well.

        Those views are completely at odds with Catholic doctrine.  

        I have no problem with the Catholic Church demanding adherence to basic core principles.  If you can't cut it, just leave.

        •  Where is the rejection of people who (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Munchkn, Dirtandiron, hamletta

          believe in capital punishment? That violates church doctrine. Or the supports of wars of aggression? When was the last time you saw a priest refuse to give communion to a supporter of the war in Iraq. Where is the rejection of anti-union Catholics at the alter rails? The church and this pope are very strong union advocates. To be pro capital punishment, pro wars of aggression, anti union, and opposed to helping the poor through government programs is to be in oppostion to Church teachings. Why does not Paul Ryan leave the Church if he can not act in accordance with its teachings?

    •  There is simply no fair (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      VTelder, Ckntfld, mideedah, blue denim, Munchkn

      correlation between "DINOs" and Catholics who love their church, but wish it to progress with the times.

      You can talk about "purity" all you want, but even in the great religions, it doesn't exist.  Religions are not exempt from consequences when they refuse to recognize the times they live in, when they refuse to evolve.  Things that don't evolve, eventually die.

      No church represents truth, as everyone sees it.  And no church is the voice of God, and most of them need to be more humble to that fact.

      Glad to hear you still admire the Catholic church, but the fact that you left it years ago does not speak well for its ability to provide it's members with a more spiritual, less tyrannical experience.

    •  What's "purity" in Catholism? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      Better yet, has there ever been such a thing? Are you implying that Donohue represents such a "purity" standard? In the ever evolving history of the Catholic church, when was its most "pure" era? You must have an opinion on the subject as you bring it up. And last but not least, purity and better are two different things, two concepts that are often confounded. Dkos strives to elect better democrats but nowhere does it say "more pure democrats", because few dare define "pure" for fear of being laughed out of this place. Nevertheless, a few do try without success as most of us recognize that "purity" is mostly a very relative concept when discussing politics and most things social. I probably just need the fingers in one hand to count the things that we can be legitimally called "purists" about in this site, and they all relate to biggotry in one way or another, as in being opposed to biggotry, and for everything else you can find a fairly  wide range of opinions from center-right to very left as you can ascertain from some of the discussions that go on.

    •  Here is the problem Jerry (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Munchkn, Dirtandiron

      Back in th early 60s there was a church council referred to as Vatican II. Now church councils are binding on the faithful and have been since the 300s. Changers were made to certain church teachings and practices. There has been no church council since. And remember that councils are binding Church doctrine. Since John Paul II and Benedict XVI the church has been abandoning Vatican II principals and practices. They have been watering down doctrine and attempting to overturn the doctrine of Vatican II in a rearguard action. Both popes were on the record at the time of the council expressing their lack of support for it.

      Vatican II was welcomed by most Catholics as a major reform and step forward into the modern world. And again it is binding doctrine. If anyone should be accused of watering down the faith it is the last two popes and their supporters who refuse to accept doctrine as laid down by a major council. The honest way to change would be to call another council. But we have heard nothing from that.

      And it the time since Pope John Paul II we have seen a complete diminution of Catholic influence in Europe. Evangelical Protestantism has made huge inroads in Latin America. The Church has everywhere lost influence and is no longer relevant. And the answer from the Church leadership is lets do this some more. If you were a religious man you might ask "what have we done that has caused Gid to punish us this way?"

  •  We need some plumbing fixtures... (4+ / 0-)

    “Quite frankly I believe, as Pope Benedict the XVIth said just before he became pope, that maybe a smaller church would be a better church.”

    I wonder if Grover would be so kind as to loan us his bathtub now that repubs are starting to abandon his policy.

    While not all republicans are bigots, all bigots are republicans.

    by Maximilien Robespierre on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 07:10:34 PM PDT

  •  Sackcloth and ashes (9+ / 0-)

    That's what I want to see from the bishops.  Instead, they act as if they still have some moral authority.  Their hearts are hardened.  We were warned about whited sepulchres a long time ago.

    I once worked for the archdiocese of Boston.  There were some good men there as priests but many were dumb, undereducated academically and in the social realities of the world.  Most were sexist.  Many were gay but ashamed, frightened and self-loathing.  With one exception, the bishops were some of the most spiritually bankrupt men I ever worked with.

    I left the Church a long time ago.  At some point, which was passed long ago, maybe when the College of Cardinals elected Wojtyla, staying in the Church became a clear mistake.  The culture and leadership are self-perpetuating--it's a death spiral.

    Keller's column is great, and Armando is right to call out Dionne, whose support of Church lobbying on women's health issues has more to do with sentimentality than spirituality.

    In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act--Orwell

    by jhannon on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 07:17:29 PM PDT

    •  That's what confession was supposed to be (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      jhannon, LSophia, Ckntfld

      If you look at the history of the Church (as taught to me in high school), confession was the only sacrament not explicitly based on Jesus' teachings. It arose in the early Church and was really about Reconciliation, not confession. It was reserved for three sins - murder, adultery and denouncing of the Church (so the Romans wouldn't throw you to the lions). In reality most people were only forced to undergo the process after denouncing the Church - it's hard to go back to people who may have lost loved ones to the Roman "games" after denouncing them to save your own behind and expect a warm welcome.

      So a year-long process developed which basically involved the sinner admitting his injury to the Church and begging forgiveness - and this was in the open, not private.

      Well, no one in the history of religion has quite damaged any church the way the Catholic leadership has with its multi-decade parade of criminality. Yet they see absolutely no reason to admit their sins and repent - they'd rather keep hiding the truth. Hell Dolan's predecessor in NY, Egan, has retracted the apology he did make to the victims.

      I think that might be the definition of hubris.

      A government that denies gay men the right to bridal registry is a facist state - Margaret Cho

      by CPT Doom on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 08:04:58 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  "More Catholic than the Pope"? (9+ / 0-)

    Here's what struck in in Keller's column:

    In person, Donohue — a big, 64-year-old Long Island Irishman, divorced father of two grown daughters — has the genial manner of the parish priest he almost became
    Isn't divorce a no-no in conservative Catholic ideology?  Tell me how that makes him a "proper" Catholic, able to invite others to leave the Church if they don't want to toe the line?

    Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it. --Mark Twain

    by SottoVoce on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 07:22:14 PM PDT

    •  It's Okay If You're A Republican n/t (5+ / 0-)
      Isn't divorce a no-no in conservative Catholic ideology?  Tell me how that makes him a "proper" Catholic, able to invite others to leave the Church if they don't want to toe the line?

      Where are all the jobs, Boehner?

      by Dirtandiron on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 07:23:28 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Well, yes and no (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      devtob, Dirtandiron

      In Catholic teaching, marriage is really 2 separate parts - the legal part and the sacrament part.  In terms of the legal, if you divorce, you divorce.  

      However, a legal divorce does not dissolve the sacrament of marriage. Therefore, his sacramental marriage remains.  So long as he does not remarry, he remains in good standing.

      Also, I don't know his circumstance, but perhaps he got an annulment.  An annulment deals with ONLY the sacramental part of marriage, and is a declaration that the sacrament was never valid.  

      Liberalism is trust of the people tempered by prudence. Conservatism is distrust of the people tempered by fear. ~William E. Gladstone, 1866

      by absdoggy on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 07:29:57 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  AFAIK, a divorced person can still (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      receive the sacraments, as long as he.she does not remarry.

      IMHO, the church opposes civil divorce because it discourages Catholics from paying annulment fees.

      A public option for health insurance is a national priority.

      by devtob on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 08:05:55 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  He's a fuckin hypocrite (0+ / 0-)

      that's how.

      For crissakes the church let Newt join.  That oughta tell you all you need to know about their bullshit "standards"

      Obama is at war with radical anti-American terrorists. The radical GOP is at war with American women. Take that and run with it DNC, you inept fucking pikers.

      by GOPGO2H3LL on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 08:55:42 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  So everthing realy does have a price. (6+ / 0-)

    Even your Immortal soul.

    “They’re the ones who pay the bills,” he said. “Can we afford to ignore the other half? I think we can.”
    That shit's pretty fucked up.

    F*ck those idiots and the voters they rode in on.

    by roninkai on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 07:43:44 PM PDT

    •  The money quote--literally: (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Munchkn, Ckntfld
      “They’re the ones who pay the bills,” he said. “Can we afford to ignore the other half? I think we can.”
      For the last umpty-dumpt years I've been telling anyone who'll listen that the key to understanding the Catholic hierarchy can be found in 3 little words:
      Follow the money.
      Those petty petticoated clowns didn't give a rat's arse about child-molesting priests until the lawsuits started--then they bent over backwards to try & drown the issue with a flood of crocodile teared apologies.

      The only reason the Vatican hasn't excommunicated the US branch of the church en masse is that it's been their primary ca$h cow--the more they can squeeze out of their American satrapies, the less they need to touch the myriad tentacles of their investments. In the interest of honesty* they should drop their pretenses & just revoke the membership card of anyone who doesn't hand over X% of their earnings every year. (Works for the Mormons, doesn't it?)


      * Assuming the Church is interested in honesty. Which it patently isn't & never has been.

      snarcolepsy, n: a condition in which the sufferer responds to any comment with a smartass comeback.

      by Uncle Cosmo on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 08:12:48 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Now it's the church for the 1% (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Munchkn, Dirtandiron

      As long as they pander to the affluent, the rest of us can literally go to hell

  •  the Church does NOT belong to Donohue and his ilk (8+ / 0-)

    Neither does it belong to the conservative American hierarchy. The Church is the people and belongs to the people. I will not leave MY Church and allow them to completely pervert Catholicism.

  •  I chatted with my pastor yesterday (9+ / 0-)

    Because I have been struggling mightily with the institutional church including the Holy See and the US Council of Catholic Bishops (USCCB), but see the good work done by many churches including ours to take care of the disenfranchised.

    I think we are going to have to see what happens after Benedict dies and what direction the church will take at that time.  Will it completely revert to pre-Vatican II teachings or allow the reforms to flourish?

    I am also very concerned that a bunch of old, out of touch men who haven't come in contact with the nitty gritty realities of family life are making policy on birth control.

    My pastor is a wonderful man.  He grew up in a large extended family and understands how life works in the 'real world'.  

    He laughed when I said that the roles of women in the church are either 'the celibate hand maiden' or 'the walking womb', but he did not disagree.

    He was very sympathetic to the nuns who are fighting the bishops to do the work of the gospels and knows that the church will be hemorrhaging parishioners very soon.  But the sympathetic priests are in a bind, because for every progressive Catholic, there are Ultra Conservative Catholics out there too.

    It's a waiting game to see who wins.

  •  the Episcopal Church welcomes you (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TigerMom, LSophia

    "Politics is like driving. To go backward put it in R. To go forward put it in D."

    by TrueBlueMajority on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 07:59:28 PM PDT

  •  I think all religions could be eaasily replaced... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    with the following credo:

    "Life is hard.  Let's all agree to help each other through it as best we can."

    You have the right to remain silent. If you waive that right you will be accused of class warfare.

    by spritegeezer on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 08:05:53 PM PDT

  •  The Catholic Church has lost me (10+ / 0-)

    I converted to Catholicism 24 years ago. To be honest, I have remained pro-choice and pro-birth control all of that time. It has only been in the past few years that they have gone off their rocker about abortion and birth control. One reason I like them as a church previously was that they didn't get involved in political fights. The main emphasis was on social justice and helping the poor. But that has changed. They decided when Obama came into office to become a political entity and to focus on abortion and contraception. I refuse to be part of a church that gets involved in politics at all. And I refuse to be a part of a church that wants to limit my ability to control my own body.  

  •  Fuck Donahue (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Munchkn, GOPGO2H3LL, Dirtandiron

    I made the shit list of these d-bags for my positive review of Bad Santa.  In it I took note of the satirical tone that lampooned what Christmas has become.  Billy Boy didn't like it.  LOL.  I wore it as a badge of honor then and I still do now.

  •  A friend of mine signed the 1984 (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Munchkn, GOPGO2H3LL, Dirtandiron

    NYT ad, was denied tenure, changed professions, became a female Catholic "priest," and started her own damn Catholic Church. history, told by a person very much opposed to my friend's actions

    Mr. Donahue's estimate of the no. of Catholics who attend mass regularly and donate to the church seems high.  If he were correct, would the Catholic church be closing so many parish churches?  And even some churches still "open" only have a priest to celebrate mass once a month.  

  •  Bait Taken (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    GOPGO2H3LL, mikidee, Oh Mary Oh, Munchkn

    I can well understand why long-estranged or non-Catholics so easily follow the Donohue premise of the Church as just another highly organized political organization.  I happen to be attending a Jesuit College in 1978 when John Paul II became Pope and was fortunate to be enlightened by some terrific old-time Jesuits, who had JPII assessed at that early date in his papacy to a remarkable degree.  

    Those Jesuits did not happen to agree with JPII but knew of his strength and resolve and predicted the roll-back of Liberation Theology throughout the world (on the way further back into the past, erasing Vatican II), the methodical seeding of all of the Church's positions with hardline ultra-conservatives who would be counted on to both support JPII's retrograde movements and also to ensure that his successors, for at least a generation, would follow suit.  I can recall it as if it were yesterday, although it was 1978 or 1979, an old, resigned, boozy Jesuit, slumped behind his desk, chain-smoking as he spoke, as much to himself as to the class -- this very same formulation of a smaller Church with fewer but more comfortably and aggressively conservative constituency with a strong political bent.  But what of this business of saving souls -- how is that consistent with serving only a radical activist minority -- it was asked.  His answer then, was that the Hierarchy had already moved past that seemingly thorny point, as the progressives (then cast as liberals) had effectively rejected salvation.  

    From there is was but a short step to join with the Right Wing of the Republican Party or you are going to hell.  So in addition to being unpatriotic, you Kos people have that going for you as well.  Enjoy!  It's not funny, particularly if you do not happen to share the common prejudices against Catholics and instead recognize the spirit and humility of the true Church.  The Church is not the Pope and his accolades or his enforcing factions or his lay mouthpieces like Mr. Donohue, but a living, thinking community of believers, many of whom are terribly distressed by the hostile takeover at the top.  

    The American Church is indistinguishable from other Right Wing interest groups (although they are tops with the fancy garb).  If you can stomach it, go over to the US Conference of Catholic Bishops webite and see what they've cooked up for the political barbecue season this summer  in their Fortnight 4 Freedom campaign.  The Bishops have long made common cause and coordinated their attacks against Democrats by chumming up to the Republican hierarchy.  They now have largely done away with theological and religious rhetoric and imagery in favor of language and image making straight out of Karl Rove's shop.  

  •  I didn't leave the church, the church left me! (8+ / 0-)

    This subject has really been on my mind lately wondering how/why all the good things the church represented to me growing up has gone so far off the rails. Like an earlier post, I gave up the last shreds of participation when our pastor encouraged people to vote for GWB in 2004.  The birth control insanity was the last straw to even claim any association. But I feel for some wonderful progressive priests and nuns I have known over the years who really do the good work that is so important.

  •  The Nazi Pope has a demographics problem. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    Most of the Donahue ilk are like the teabaggers...old, getting older, and scheduled for departure.

    The Nazi Pope is just delaying the reckoning and ensuring that it's worse.  The Vatican and the rest of the hierarchy have no standing army to enforce their dogma.  So it shall become unenforceable soon enough.

    Also, Donahue is gonna burn in hell.

    Obama is at war with radical anti-American terrorists. The radical GOP is at war with American women. Take that and run with it DNC, you inept fucking pikers.

    by GOPGO2H3LL on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 08:52:52 PM PDT

  •  I've spoken to this before. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    The Catholic Bishops, from the pope on down, are evil, twisted fuckers.  They are killing the Catholic church.

    They've cast their lot with the Satanic GOP, and the demon chickens are coming home to roost.

    Seriously, and this is not bluster, I will put my finger in the chest of the bishop of my diocese and tell that son of a bitch to fuck himself in those exact terms.  It's them against me, they are the enemy, and I'm a mean, nasty motherfucker.

    But I do care about and provide charity to the poor, so I'm a way better Catholic than those Sadducee pukes.

    Obama is at war with radical anti-American terrorists. The radical GOP is at war with American women. Take that and run with it DNC, you inept fucking pikers.

    by GOPGO2H3LL on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 09:02:16 PM PDT

  •  it's like Spinal Tap - (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    "our audience is becoming more selective".

    big badda boom : GRB 080913

    by squarewheel on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 10:18:16 PM PDT

  •  Why would any decent person be a Catholic (0+ / 0-)

    when it is so obviously regressive and its leader an avowed misogynist and homophobic pope?  If you don't have the moral courage to walk away from that horrible organization, how will you ever have the moral courage to stand up against the Republicans?

    •  I was raise as a Catholic and loved the church (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Oh Mary Oh, Munchkn, Dirtandiron

      as an important part of my childhood. I dreamt of being a heroic priest scientist (not a contradiction in the 60s) and serving God and helping man. I loved everything about the church, the ceremony, the mystery, the rigorous system of Jesuit thinking.

      I left the church after the 1st wave of sex abuse allegations came to the front and it became clear to me that Cardinal Bernadine's responsible method for handling these allegations was rejected by Rome. And then I read a book about Catholicism's relationship with Judaism prior to Nazi Germany (ie pre-holocaust) and decide that the teachings of the church were riddled with lies.

      One argument that Catholicism makes is that the  Holy Spirit guides the church and keeps it out of serious trouble. This is not the doctrine of Papal Infallibility but rather that the whole church is kept from serious error. And the church fails this test over and over not just over clerical sex abuse but about other things as well. If God guides his church then how could the bishops have gotten it so wrong?

    •  If you were born just after Vatican 2 (like me) (0+ / 0-)

      you remember a time when the Church was not militant cheerleaders for one political party over another. And who knew what they were covering up? No one except for the perpetrators, those complicit in the cover ups and the poor victims. So, it's pretty hard for some of us to accept that the Church is the way we know it is now.

      Where are all the jobs, Boehner?

      by Dirtandiron on Wed Jun 20, 2012 at 01:22:40 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  The Catholic Church is like Rush Limbaugh, (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    claiming numbers they can't possibly prove.  How many former Catholics are there who are still on the books?  I say former Catholics should choose a single day to request to be officially removed off the membership rolls aka excommunicated.  I bet the numbers would be devastating.

  •  As a former-still recovering-catholic, I think (0+ / 0-)

    that "progressive" catholics should just leave.
     The church is institutionally immune to change, at least to any humanizing change, and the pope has already said that those in the US who disagree with him can become Episcopalians.

    Personally, I attended catholic schools-against my wishes- K-12, and stopped believing it about age 11. I think it is nothing more than a big business, using social and emotional manipulation to ensure followers/donors.

    But I understand that people want to believe in it, and I think they might just start their own version of it here...or become Episcopalians.

    Retired AFSCME Steward and licensed gun carrying progressive veteran.

    by old mark on Wed Jun 20, 2012 at 03:06:00 AM PDT

  •  Donohue's group--surf it up (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Munchkn, Dirtandiron, hamletta

    Donohue represents Catholics about as well as Ron Paul represents the average Republican--NOT.

    Do a little surfing on his website. His Board is a selection of right wing hacks and pundits. His salary is obscene. And the positions he's taken don't even agree with the Vatican's in a lot of cases.

    But he gets on TV and American Catholics don't object. I guess 2000 years of sheep analogies have just damaged us too much.

  •  Spent time in Zocodover Square last week (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Oh Mary Oh, Dirtandiron

    (If you want to hear the "Twilight Zone" theme in your head, I'll tell you about how static hit our camera screen and it just died...)

    That's where the Inquisition started, and where the stench of the bodies got so bad they had to move the burning pillars out of town.

    But a more telling "google" might be the cathedral in Albi, France. That was where the average Catholics got fed up with the "pilgrimage/money" game and tried to return to their roots. They were all killed. And the Cathedral there looks more like an armed fortress, because the Bishop spent the rest of his life cowering in fear.

    Make no mistake about it, a new Inquisition is on its way and the nuns are the first to be inquired upon.

  •  "...the enshrinement of religious thuggery..." (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Oh Mary Oh, Munchkn

    Thank you, Charles Pierce, for the adequacy of your erudition.  Donohue and the RC Church are not much better than... [...ooopsie...pick your favorite genocidal group here.]

  •  This is so sad. (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Oh Mary Oh, Munchkn, Dirtandiron, hamletta

    Telling progressive Catholics to "just go" is, in a way, like telling Palestinians who are unhappy under occupation to "just go."  The obvious answer is, "why should I go?  My roots are here, and I have a right to be here."

    Charity and hospitality are Christian virtues.  But the sad conundrum, in religion as in politics, is that only one side sees the need to respect and listen to the other.  The result could be called "asymmetric warfare," but that name is taken.

    Early to rise and early to bed Makes a man healthy, wealthy, and dead. --Not Benjamin Franklin

    by Boundegar on Wed Jun 20, 2012 at 04:28:45 AM PDT

  •  Good for them, bad for us (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Oh Mary Oh, Munchkn, Dirtandiron

    This is the right choice for a conservative Catholic church that refuses change, thinks it has everything right already, and wants to pass itself along as if frozen in amber to the future.

    And that is bad for progressives since it means the conservative church will be with us into the indefinite future rather than dissolving soon into modernity.

    Or is it post-modernity, now?

  •  I quit (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Munchkn, Dirtandiron

    It was a tough decision.  I had been a Catholic for 46 years, and now I'm not.
    BTW, Bill Donohue's name was mentioned in my resignation letter to the Bishop.  He can take credit if he wants to.

  •  In the words of my late father, (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Munchkn, Dirtandiron

    "I did not leave the Catholic Church, the Church left me."

    (posted by accident on another thread!)

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