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The walking ball of Awesome that is Elon Musk has done it again, this time in the automotive arena: Tesla Motors has begun delivering its mid-range luxury sedan, the Model S, to dealers and early buyers today.  As the sedan starts at $49,900 after credits and rebates, it is within range of the upper-middle-class, plenty of whom are environmentally conscious liberals and progressives.  But aside from that, the damn thing is just plain beautiful and powerful.  See for yourself:

Tesla Model S

Tesla Model S

Tesla Model S

Tesla Model S

Tesla Model S

Tesla Model S

Tesla Model S intérieur

Tesla model S

Tesla Model S Dashboard

Tesla Model S Event

It shreds the racetrack, makes little or no noise, drives hundreds of miles without a recharge, smooth as silk, roomy and comfortable, looks like pure sex, and you're saving the planet in the process.  You have the option of a dedicated solar power source for recharging if you don't trust the grid, but even using the grid results in substantially less greenhouse gas emissions than if they were directly combusted in a car engine.  Plus, if you buy this car, you'll be contributing to the evolution of the next generation car that will be available to the average person.  

In other words, if you are an upper-middle-class person, you are obligated to buy the Tesla Model S.  It's not a statement, it's not a toy, it's your duty - pure and simple.  You have no other choice.  Lexus, Mercedes, BWM, Audi...these cars are no longer on the menu if you are not a complete douchebag.  Everything you want and more is in the Model S, so the only reason not to buy it if you have the means would be if you were a mentally disturbed right-wing sociopath who likes the idea of global warming and resource wars.  So if you have the money and looking to buy a car in this range, this is it - the only option at your disposal.  And let no one call themselves a liberal or progressive who can afford it that fails to buy this car.  Hell, chip in together to buy one if you can't afford one individually.  Clean up the streets and sexify them at the same time.

Recharging infrastructure isn't yet ubiquitous, but guess how it becomes ubiquitous?  Through growth of demand.  The more EVs are on the road, the more profitable it becomes to install further recharging infrastructure, which will go well beyond current demand on the basis of speculated future demand.  Meanwhile charging and battery-swap technology will continuously improve.  You're basically signing up for your driving experience to get better and better the longer you drive - when's the last time that was possible?  You have an opportunity to join the future right now.  Here's a list of stores - there are about 23 in the US and Canada right now - or place your order.

Disclaimer: I do not own any Tesla stock, so I have no financial incentive in talking up its sales.  I just love the company and the ideas behind it.  Okay then, upper-middle-class environmentalists, dish out the dough or you're a bunch of poseurs.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Tip Jar (135+ / 0-)

    "I'm going to rub your faces in things you try to avoid." - Muad'Dib

    by Troubadour on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 07:33:12 PM PDT

  •  The prior model was also a very (34+ / 0-)

    pretty car.

    I really wish them the best of luck and that former Nummi factory in Fremont, CA gets just as busy as it once was.

    “I freed a thousand slaves. I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves.” - Harriet Tubman

    by Publius2008 on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 07:37:01 PM PDT

    •  Yea, but it was 6 figures. <nt> (8+ / 0-)

      "The political system, including elections, is carefully managed to prevent the threat of democracy."  ~Noam Chomsky

      -7.38, -6.97

      by cotasm on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 09:31:46 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  And the Model S is 5-figures. (17+ / 0-)

        That's called progress.

        "I'm going to rub your faces in things you try to avoid." - Muad'Dib

        by Troubadour on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 09:35:33 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Agreed. Just pointing out that the (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Troubadour, cosette, JoanMar

          prior model was indeed nice, but not affordable for people of middle class means.

          I started looking at the Model S months ago.  It's certainly affordable for me, and my 2005 Civic Hybrid is getting tired.  I have a couple other gas vehicles for practical purposes, but they rarely get used.

          In the end, I just couldn't pull the trigger on the Model S, though.  I have no idea where this company will be in a few years (they've needed a lot of help to get where they are now) or what the upkeep on such a low production vehicle will cost.  I'm not of the early-adopter mentality.  So, I think I'll wait...

          "The political system, including elections, is carefully managed to prevent the threat of democracy."  ~Noam Chomsky

          -7.38, -6.97

          by cotasm on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 09:53:12 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  What's the safety rating on these cars? (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Troubadour, JoanMar

          (that's an extremely high priority for us).

          We're not perfect, but they're nuts! -- Barney Frank

          by Tamar on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 10:01:11 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I think Musk said on twitter it was 5 star (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Troubadour, JoanMar
            •  We don't have the money for one of these now, (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              addikell, Troubadour, cosette, JoanMar

              but, if I check out NTSA and IHS and find out it's really safe, maybe for our next car. We have 2 Priuses right now -- one 2005 and a 2010.

              We're not perfect, but they're nuts! -- Barney Frank

              by Tamar on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 10:28:48 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  why don't you just keep what you have? (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Crider, AoT

                Buying new crap like in the photos is destroying our planet. We can't consume our way out of global warming.

                You should consider keeping what you have for the rest of your life. No more open pit mines for the high tech rare metals that go into keeping up with the Joneses, no coal burning power plants to power the steel mills in Korea to manufacture the high quality steel that goes into the skin of the car.

                Rich Americans are the most polluting animals on the face of the earth, this car is a prime example of why.

                The theory that nature is permanently in balance has been largely discredited

                by ban nock on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 05:29:57 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Sure (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  davidseth, Troubadour

                  Language professors HATE me!

                  by Zornorph on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 07:23:17 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Usually (5+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  lineatus, AoT, cosette, old wobbly, Troubadour

                  But not always.  There is the damage from creating and distributing a car, and the damage from regular use.  Look at solar cells.  There is considerable damage from making them, but (hopefully) at some point the amount of damage from use of fossil fuels surpasses that, and they start becoming a net positive.  Same thing might apply to the Tesla, or to the Prius, for that matter.

                  Of course, when it comes to transportation, better approaches are possible; bicycles, mass transit, and just flat out driving less.

                  I am become Man, the destroyer of worlds

                  by tle on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 07:44:21 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  we don't run around buying new cars every couple (0+ / 0-)

                  of years. We drive our cars until they are pretty much done in. None of our old cars were traded in to get something spiffier. The closest we came to that was getting a new minivan in 2000 after our oldest daughter was killed in a car accident. We went out and bought the car with the highest safety rating -- it was one of the first cars (and was the first non-luxury car) to have side curtain airbags, a safety feature that could have saved our daughter's life. Given that we had another daughter and were planning on adopting a child, we wanted the safest thing on the road.

                  In a couple of years, we'll probably give the oldest Prius to our older daughter (if she needs it then -- she's moving to NYC in the fall and won't have/doesn't want/doesn't need a car for the next couple of years). If she needs a car then and we give her ours, that's when we'd look into this type of car for us. (we bought the new Prius when we could no longer borrow my MIL's 1995 Taurus. It's still in use by her caretaker her drives her everywhere).

                  And none of our old cars have gone to landfill. They may not be in good enough shape to drive but we donate them to the vocational program at a local public high school where they're fixed and refurbished by students learning auto mechanics, and then sold to raise money for the program and be used by someone else.

                  We're not perfect, but they're nuts! -- Barney Frank

                  by Tamar on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 08:16:00 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  We just bought a Prius '12 (3rd generation) (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Troubadour, Tamar

                Drove our Mitsubishi Ecylpyse Spyder '01 almost into the ground here and we've got two drivers using one car.
                We were trying to go all electric with the next one w/a Volt or a Leaf...
                We'll go all electric with the next one ...in a few years.

                "Children who are victims of failed personal responsibility are not my problem, nor are they the problem for our government." Tim Pawlenty April 2001

                by cosette on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 09:19:37 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  Yeah, 5-star. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Kinak, Tamar

            "I'm going to rub your faces in things you try to avoid." - Muad'Dib

            by Troubadour on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 10:27:41 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  cool yes, but not so inexpensive. . . (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Troubadour

      the standard range is 160 miles (mfr); it costs another $10K to get 230 miles of range and $20K above the base price to get up to 300 miles of range and 4.5 vs. the standard 5.6 seconds to 60 mph.

      For now, I much prefer the series hybrid types of cars like the Chevy Volt, Fisker Karma, and a couple of new BMW's which combine the efficiency of battery power (40 mile range or so) plus a highly efficient internal combustion engine which is designed to recharge the battery.  You don't have to be a pioneer and risk taker to take out on a 500 mile trip like you would with battery only technology.

      Further, the suggestion to only buy this kind of technology is very short-sighted.  Investing in multiple fuel and pollution minimizing technologies is the best way to advance toward the desired outcome.  Diesel hybrids, fuel cells (another type of battery), mass transport are all part of the answer.

      Oh, and the exterior is a direct rip off of the Maserati Quattroporte

      the fact that you're right is nothing more than interesting

      by Egg on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 10:13:09 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Oh, yeah? (16+ / 0-)

    Well, I guess I'm not an upper-middle-class person.

    Too bad! My 11-year-old Ford Focus ZX3 could stand retirement.

    Float like a manhole cover, sting like a sash weight! Clean Coal Is A Clinker!

    by JeffW on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 07:43:56 PM PDT

    •  Last car I had was a Ford Focus. LOVED THAT CAR (6+ / 0-)

      Seats were at perfect height off the ground so getting in and out felt smooth and natural. (Same for Prius, tho never owned one.)

      My Focus handled beautifully and was the only car I ever found fun to drive.

      I'm far from being an auto enthusiast, but I will say the Telsa is a sexy looking car.

      Ds see human suffering and wonder what they can do to relieve it. Rs see human suffering and wonder how they can profit from it.

      by JTinDC on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 03:05:05 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I'd love my car better... (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Troubadour, JTinDC, Calamity Jean

        ...if the fuel injectors hadn't started dumping gallons of gas into the engine recently. I had to replace them. I've had to replace a lot of other things, since it's a 2001. I'm hoping to keep it going until we move to our farm, and can buy a pickup (can't park a pickup on the street in Chicago). We just got it back after 2+ weeks at the garage, where they were trying to determine what was wrong (had to call in a specialist).

        Float like a manhole cover, sting like a sash weight! Clean Coal Is A Clinker!

        by JeffW on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 07:49:25 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Nice styling, albeit within the genre of upscale (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Troubadour, palantir, G2geek

    euro-petrol sedan bodies and even at a decent price

    slutty voter for a "dangerous president"; Präsidentenelf-maßschach; Warning-Some Snark Above"Nous sommes un groupuscule" (-9.50; -7.03) "Sciant terra viam monstrare." 政治委员, 政委!

    by annieli on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 07:44:11 PM PDT

    •  my preference would be the Model X but I'd have (7+ / 0-)

      to win the Lottery

      slutty voter for a "dangerous president"; Präsidentenelf-maßschach; Warning-Some Snark Above"Nous sommes un groupuscule" (-9.50; -7.03) "Sciant terra viam monstrare." 政治委员, 政委!

      by annieli on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 07:47:15 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Colorado Lotto is back at $500k before taxes (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Troubadour, annieli, cosette

        Was up to 8 mill, but apparently 2 tickets won Weds.

        So, yeah, been playing with those falcon wing doors at the website. They do present a problem for where to put the canoe...  I also love the frunks. The whole idea of lifting that front hood and having NOTHING to fuss with under it is just a delicious fantasy ;)

        Since they don't start production until '13 with delivery until '14, there ought to be time to win the Lotto, PB...

        By then I should have had a chance to get to a performance of the Tesla Quartet if they stick around Boulder.

        "People, even more than things, have to be restored, renewed, revived, reclaimed and redeemed; never throw out anyone. " Audrey Hepburn "A Beautiful Woman"

        by Ginny in CO on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 09:55:15 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  "and even at a decent price" (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      PeterHug, AoT

      My how things have changed. Seems not that long ago BMWs were running 50K and at that time back in the Peoria area of IL a modest but nice house in a good neighborhood could be bought for the same amount. I remember thinking how indecent it seemd that anyone would spend that much money on a car.

      Ds see human suffering and wonder what they can do to relieve it. Rs see human suffering and wonder how they can profit from it.

      by JTinDC on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 03:12:13 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  It's still indecent (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        PeterHug, AoT, Dale, JTinDC

        The theory that nature is permanently in balance has been largely discredited

        by ban nock on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 05:31:38 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Exactly. This diary rankles a bit, much as I love (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          zett, JTinDC

          the car. 50 grand is a year's salary for a lot of people. Over and beyond that, I think it is a more urgent "duty" for us to shoot for accessible, environmentally sound public transportation than to add to the number of private vehicles on the road.

          A disproportionate share of non-affluent Americans are wholly dependent upon their gas-guzzling beaters to get to work, because the infrastructure for train and bus service is abysmally poor, outside certain urban centers. Giving a solar-powered car to the 1% is not much of a solution to that problem.

          Nothing requires a greater effort of thought than arguments to justify the rule of non-thought. -- Milan Kundera

          by Dale on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 09:41:30 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Well, if (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        JTinDC

        you lease it then the price is irrelevant because you are making payments and will never pay $50k.

        It's outrageous for me - and I live in Los Angeles, the home of "car size/price makes up for lack of penis size" (Hummers?  Really?  You need a personnel carrier to take your one child to school?) -

        But the idea of spending that much on a car is ridiculous.  

        Still, if I could find a way to justify trading in a paid-off car with 60k miles on it for a Leaf, I would.

        Not sure I'd do it for a hybrid, though.  More miles to the gallon still means burning fossil fuels.  If I'm gonna go, I'm going all the way, or sticking with this car until it dies.

        Why is it that a 3% tax increase for the wealthy is considered "socialism" and an 8% wage cut for the middle class is "doing your part"? MartyM

        by delphine on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 09:50:30 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  ... (4+ / 0-)

    "Drop the name-calling." Meteor Blades 2/4/11

    by indycam on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 07:44:39 PM PDT

    •  Too bad neither maker... (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      palantir, Troubadour, Calamity Jean

      ...sells cars in the US any more.

      Float like a manhole cover, sting like a sash weight! Clean Coal Is A Clinker!

      by JeffW on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 07:45:52 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Eww. Those cars look like something to step on (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      palantir

      not step in.

      "I'm going to rub your faces in things you try to avoid." - Muad'Dib

      by Troubadour on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 07:50:10 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Oh , you don't like . (11+ / 0-)
        Meet The Greenest Vehicle of 2012.
        Shortly after being named the EPA's fuel economy leader2, the 100% electric Mitsubishi i was recognized as "The Greenest Vehicle of 2012" by the American Council for an Energy-Efficient Economy. Thanks to an astonishing 112 combined MPGe, this EV is the most efficient car in production—beating the Nissan Leaf and, well, every hybrid or gas car in America.
        http://i.mitsubishicars.com/

        "Drop the name-calling." Meteor Blades 2/4/11

        by indycam on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 07:53:45 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Hells no I don't like. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          gustynpip, Rick Aucoin

          This is the same game the auto industry has been playing for a long time, deliberately making ugly-ass bug cars to keep the hippies away from their main revenue streams.  Tesla's kicking the shit out of that practice, as to a lesser extent is the Chevy Volt and perhaps the Fitzker (if they end up surviving the A123 recall).

          "I'm going to rub your faces in things you try to avoid." - Muad'Dib

          by Troubadour on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 07:57:44 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Are you joking ? (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            adrianrf

            "Drop the name-calling." Meteor Blades 2/4/11

            by indycam on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 08:03:18 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  good to hear we're fighting over aesthetics now. (10+ / 0-)

            That's progress!  Because it means we all agree on the new definition of cutting-edge tech in which sustainability is a core design value, so we can argue over style!

            Yes, Model S looks like a panther on wheels, sleek and cat-like, more so than most of the conventional cars that try to achieve that look.  And yes it should be the top choice of well-to-do progressives who would otherwise be thinking BMW, Audi, Lexus, and so on.  

            Though, there is room for difference over aesthetics.  Personally I prefer simpler Euclidean geometries, functional spherical and rectangular shapes, rather than curves that remind one of nothing so much as an artistic nude rendered in steel, or the (thankfully now declining) style of aggressive "insectoid" forms that invoke something alien and dangerous from a Hans Giger painting.

            In my segment of the market ("tradesman's vehicles") the ideal case is a plain box on wheels, just sufficiently rounded at the edges to have decent aerodynamics at 60 MPH, and with plenty of room for tools & cargo.  

            When there's a plug-in hybrid or 200-mile electric version of that, in the $25K price range, I'm there.  

            Between now and then I'm happily driving one of these and getting 30 - 35 MPG on combined city/highway trips:

            http://www.xcarkey.com/...

            "Minus two votes for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

            by G2geek on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 08:43:53 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  oh, maybe that's what it means... (0+ / 0-)
              curves that remind one of nothing so much as an artistic nude rendered in steel
              I really puzzle over descriptions of cars as, e.g., "pure sex." Maybe I just lack soul. ;) Seriously, I suddenly want to read a good book about the "sexiness" of cars. Anyone?
            •  My sense of aesthetics (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              zett, Troubadour

              To me the best looking cars on the road are at least ten years old, preferably even older, and still in decent repair. A little rust is just fine, some faded paint maybe....

              I think they blend in better with the environment, and they're not so egotistical-looking. They seem friendlier somehow, more human and less... I don't know, intimidating I guess.

              But the new Tesla is bold alright, and electric car pioneers deserve support and applause. No doubt it'll look better in ten years, with some wear and tear on it.

              "Here's another nice mess you've gotten me into." - Oliver Hardy

              by native on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 06:56:30 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I'm the opposite way. (0+ / 0-)

                A car should look like a god recently descended to Earth, so beautiful and sharp it looks like it's about to tear the fabric of space-time.

                "I'm going to rub your faces in things you try to avoid." - Muad'Dib

                by Troubadour on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 12:26:07 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  Looks pretty good to me. (0+ / 0-)

              Particularly in the form-follows-function mode that a completely electric car would need to be. It is a little generic, like many cars are now (hard to tell apart, even cars that used to have signature styles).

              I get the grumpiness of people who have a problem with cars and with materialism. It is also typical that they'd come here and drop their negativity nuggets in a diary that is offensive to them because that is just how people often roll. :-\

              Let's face it: we are a material culture. We are also a culture where many people don't have the option of walking, biking or riding public trans where they need to go. We are a car culture. For better, for worse, THAT IS HOW WE ARE. I think a good way to fight it is to make those vehicles as green as possible, and create good jobs for people in our country when we can. Union when we can. We have to acknowledge that cars are a big part of our economy.

              •  As one of the grumpitariat I have to say (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                zett

                that the main reason I'm grumpy in this diary is that the diarist wrote a diary saying we have a duty to buy this if we have the money.  I think it's good that this is being produced, and it's clear that not everyone is going to get rid of their car, whether it is possible for them to do so or not, but that doesn't mean we have to pretend cars are a good thin.

                There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

                by AoT on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 09:24:16 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I hear what you're saying. (0+ / 0-)

                  I look at it this way. Cars are here for good. Like for most people, having a fridge and air con and their own washer is here for good. I don't think anyone thinks that we should get rid of refrigeration because manufacturing fridges is dirty and coolant is poison. Instead, we have to figure out how to make them greener from start to finish.

                  I also understand the "buy this if you can" edict on both sides. If someone buys luxury cars, consider this instead. However, even if I could afford a new luxury car, I probably wouldn't buy one, but I might if it was a good product and it advanced something technological and philosophical that I believed in.

                  A lot of the "gripe" about electric cars is the perception of their drivability and response and "sexiness" factor. Break the perception down at the high end, where people are buying status.

                •  Hyperbole just doesn't go over (0+ / 0-)

                  like it used to.

                  "Nothing happens unless first a dream. " ~ Carl Sandburg

                  by davewill on Mon Jun 25, 2012 at 05:39:45 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

      •  Boo Hoo I can't get pretty with my not (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        koNko, tobendaro

        killing the world!

        First world problems writ large.

        There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

        by AoT on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 10:21:21 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  So crawl up on a cross already. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Rick Aucoin

          That's what the other car companies want, because they know most other people won't do it.  But now that you have the option of an awesome-looking EV, your only excuse to continue buying those bugsters is masochism.

          "I'm going to rub your faces in things you try to avoid." - Muad'Dib

          by Troubadour on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 10:30:01 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  I think it's a serious point. (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Flying Goat, old wobbly, zett, Troubadour

          And it's not about what we can or can't get.  It's about what the average oblivious American who has the cash to afford these cars will do.

          If we can get more of them to switch to electric cars by making them 'pretty', so be it.  It's results that matter, not whether or not we had to slap a nice exterior on to attract those oblivious people to switch to electric.

          •  And that is a good point (0+ / 0-)

            but it wasn't what he was saying at all.  There are plenty of people who are fine with the way electric cars look.  If the argument is that others won't buy it then make that argument, don't complain about what you think of it.

            There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

            by AoT on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 07:27:36 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  I don't get it. (4+ / 0-)

        Why are you dissing other EV's?

        If it were not for the pioneering development, production and infrastructure building work done by other EV manufacturers before Tesla, they would have the market to themselves.

        And zero charge stations.

        And zero public interest.

        Most people in the world could never afford and don't need a big luxury car like the Tesla S.

        As nice as it is, it's a niche product designed to put Tesla on the map but will never sell in numbers that make a significant impact on the environment, to do that, Tesla will have to introduce smaller, cheaper people cards that are likely to look a bit more like a MiEV or Volt than a Tesla S.

        What about my Daughter's future?

        by koNko on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 12:47:38 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Give credit where due. (0+ / 0-)

          Tesla single-handedly invented the electric vehicle market beyond the socially active willing to martyr their styling and convenience on the environmental altar.  Without them, there would be no Chevy Volt on the market - it would still be a concept car.

          "I'm going to rub your faces in things you try to avoid." - Muad'Dib

          by Troubadour on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 12:32:15 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Those are both (0+ / 0-)

      re-badged Mitsubishi Mievs. The Miev just became available in the US.

      Hige sceal þe heardra, heorte þe cenre, mod sceal þe mare, þe ure mægen lytlað

      by milkbone on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 07:13:09 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Mine's in the mail (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JeffW, Troubadour, RLMiller, NYFM, Cedwyn

    :) Just kiddin'

  •  Sorry, if I had that kind of money... (18+ / 0-)

    ...I'd be installing solar panels first.

    And my wife and I can get by with a Prius.

    "Don't ride in anything with a Capissen 38 engine. They fall right out of the sky." -- Kaywinnit Lee Frye

    by Technowitch on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 07:47:03 PM PDT

  •  Saw it at Detroit Auto Show (13+ / 0-)

    Engines and battery take up only the floor of the vehicle, and both hood and trunk are available space for that regular trip to Costco ;-)

    And it is a really good looking vehicle!!

    When you are right you cannot be too radical; when you are wrong, you cannot be too conservative. --Martin Luther King Jr.

    by Egalitare on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 07:47:15 PM PDT

  •  I want one (8+ / 0-)

    I'm just six lucky lotto numbers away!

    Maybe in 2013 or 2014 if I catch a break or two I could really do it.

    "Who is John Galt?" A two dimensional character in a third rate novel.

    by Inventor on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 07:53:07 PM PDT

  •  That's a lovely car... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Troubadour, AoT

    ...but if I were in the market for a new car—which I'm not, since I live in a city with mass transit and rarely use my current one (last time I drove it was three weeks ago for a road-trip)—I'm not sure I could justify the extra $10+K over a Volt.

    "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." --Dom Helder Camara, archbishop of Recife

    by JamesGG on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 07:58:57 PM PDT

    •  There is some value added. (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      luckydog, Nada Lemming, BYw, Zinman

      For instance, Tesla is expressly committed as a corporate mission to eradicating the gasoline-powered automobile from the face of the Earth.  Chevy is just testing a new product, and doesn't really care one way or another whether they end up with having a new niche market or revolutionizing transportation.

      "I'm going to rub your faces in things you try to avoid." - Muad'Dib

      by Troubadour on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 08:02:53 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  But is Tesla unionized? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        pot, Geenius at Wrok

        I'd rather pay UAW workers to build my car than non-union workers.

        "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." --Dom Helder Camara, archbishop of Recife

        by JamesGG on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 08:28:16 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I don't know, but probably. (0+ / 0-)

          The factory is in Fremont.  Cali's a Worker Rights state.

          "I'm going to rub your faces in things you try to avoid." - Muad'Dib

          by Troubadour on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 08:35:33 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  No it isn't (5+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          AoT, Timaeus, wsexson, pot, Crider

          Musk thinks his workers should have no need for unions because he's so cool.  Seriously, he thinks unions are only needed to protect workers from 'asshole' bosses and he would fire anyone who is an 'asshole' so, no need for unions, ta-da!

          Tesla Motors’ Musk: Let Me Run Detroit

          •  Get back to the issue (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            adrianrf, BigOkie, doc2

            if/when Tesla is overwhelmingly profitable and/if the workers aren't getting a share of it.  And it does seem like a reasonable baseline policy - no assholes in management.

            "I'm going to rub your faces in things you try to avoid." - Muad'Dib

            by Troubadour on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 08:59:06 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Sure it is reasonable (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              AoT, wsexson

              and yet somehow we still have loads of asshole bosses around.

              •  Not at Tesla or SpaceX. (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                adrianrf, doc2

                As far as I can tell from the people who work there, the job is basically:

                1.  You will have no life other than your job, but...
                2.  You will be a god, and do work that will live forever.

                "I'm going to rub your faces in things you try to avoid." - Muad'Dib

                by Troubadour on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 09:06:24 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I'm willing to bet (6+ / 0-)

                  it wouldn't be hard to find an asshole or two even at the Saint Musk companies.

                  •  Or commenting on Daily Kos. (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    doc2

                    "I'm going to rub your faces in things you try to avoid." - Muad'Dib

                    by Troubadour on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 09:17:59 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  Musk wants SpaceX to replace NASA.... (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Eric K, tobendaro, AoT

                    ...without the government workers.  But with taxpayer funds.

                    http://www.parabolicarc.com/...

                    In addition to hosting a visit by NASA Administrator Charles Bolden on Wednesday, SpaceX CEO Elon Musk also met with Texas Gov. Rick Perry to discuss state support for the company’s proposed commercial spaceport near Brownsville. Apparently, things went well.

                    http://www.spacex.com/...

                    February 1, 2012

                    Hawthorne, CA – Space Exploration Technologies (SpaceX) has successfully test fired SuperDraco, a powerful new engine that will play a critical role in the company’s efforts to change the future of human spaceflight.

                    ......

                    NASA’s Commercial Crew Program awarded SpaceX $75 million in April of last year to begin work developing the escape system in order to prepare the Dragon spacecraft to carry astronauts. Less than nine months later, SpaceX engineers have designed, built and tested the engine.

                    Yet, many of the same Kossacks praising Elon Musk have condemned private sector corporations attempting to do the same with public education.

                    Learn about Centrist Economics, learn about Robert Rubin's Hamilton Project. www.hamiltonproject.org

                    by PatriciaVa on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 09:31:45 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Ugh, this discussion is getting dumber and dumber. (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Rick Aucoin, antooo, doc2

                      You just don't comprehend how technological economics works.  We have continually failed to elect a Congress with rational priorities, which has resulted in a NASA continually incapable of advancing the state of human spaceflight.  Now Elon Musk is in the active process of radically reducing the cost of access to space via small public investments that benefit everyone seeking such access, not just governments, and your complaint is the very thing that is beneficial - that he's not under the control of the corrupt assholes who've fucked NASA into a cocked hat for decades.

                      "I'm going to rub your faces in things you try to avoid." - Muad'Dib

                      by Troubadour on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 09:39:56 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  If it were essential... (8+ / 0-)

                      ...for every person in this country to get into space, I wouldn't want to entrust that to a private for-profit corporation.

                      But we don't need a space program that covers everybody, and we do need considerable innovation in the field, which is what entrepreneurial organizations like SpaceX are good for.

                      In education, the primary need isn't innovation. We have a rather good understanding of what works, because we have examples of systems in other parts of the world (like Finland) that work and because we've made public education work in this country before, for the most part.

                      Our deficit in education is the will to take all that lip service about "children first" and actually put it into practice—not by undercutting the teachers who teach the kids, or by giving public schools over to for-profit companies, but by drastically increasing the size of government and giving every child whatever they need to succeed in life.

                      "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." --Dom Helder Camara, archbishop of Recife

                      by JamesGG on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 09:57:27 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

              •  I'm going to be completely honest here (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Troubadour, GoGoGoEverton, doc2

                And it really hurts me to say this, but if I have to choose between workers rights and stopping global warming I choose stopping global warming every time.

                Which is not to say that we have to choose!!!

                At all!

                Unions make cars, and other forms of transportation that are less polluting than even electric cars, that we can use right now!

                There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

                by AoT on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 09:08:58 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  Apparently Teslas are union-made. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            mrsgoo

            "I'm going to rub your faces in things you try to avoid." - Muad'Dib

            by Troubadour on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 09:44:55 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  Ouch I just priced mine out (12+ / 0-)

    $100,750.00

    If I could borrow from the Fed at the same rate as Chase maybe I could pull it off. I don't eat much, I have a blanket and pillow and I won't forget my towel.

  •  No outlets in my condo parking lot .... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Troubadour

    otherwise - with a short work commute and everything else I ever drive to within 100 miles or so ... (and a back-up Explorer), this would truly be a treat.  I think I will have to wait for my return to Hawaii, where I'd have to drive around Oahu several times before charging became an issue.

  •  Oh money, where art thou! (7+ / 0-)

    NOW SHOWING
    Progressive Candidate Obama (now - Nov 6, 2012)
    Bipartisan Obama returns (Nov 7, 2012)

    by The Dead Man on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 08:01:48 PM PDT

  •  I want, I want, I want, I want!!!! (8+ / 0-)

    I've been waiting for this model to arrive for literally years.  And I'm likely to be buying a new car next year.  I've been devastated to discover it's not likely to be a Tesla after all.  In order to get the battery that would indeed go several hundred miles, it would cost me more like $80,000, and I could not function with less.  And we happen to be "fortunate" enough to be provided electricity by a coop - at about twice the cost of others' electricity costs.

    My eyes are streaming with tears in my disappointment.  I have no idea what I'll settle for.  Whatever it is, it will be settling.  I've been truly convinced for the last 4-5 years that when this model came out, I'd be first in line for one.  

    Ah well.  Guess I'll just dream that this will actually be my biggest disappontment in life.  

    "If you trust you are not critical; if you are critical you do not trust" by our own Dauphin

    by gustynpip on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 08:02:52 PM PDT

    •  Maybe they could work out some financing option (0+ / 0-)

      that would let you get what you want.  This is a boutique operation - they don't answer to GMAC.

      "I'm going to rub your faces in things you try to avoid." - Muad'Dib

      by Troubadour on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 08:18:42 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Depending on your commute (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Troubadour

      The radius for travel may be much longer if there is a lot of traffic and stops and starts on your trip. The battery recharges every time you brake. I've heard that a 30 mile radius means that you can drive thirty miles on a freeway with few braking moments but much further in traffic. I might be wrong but it's worth checking out.

      Try organic food, or as your grandparents called it, food.

      by madame damnable on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 08:26:51 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Sweeeeeeeeeeeet n/ t (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Troubadour, BYw, CoolOnion

    Republican Family Values: Using the daughters from your first wife to convince everybody that your second wife is lying about your third wife.

    by jsfox on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 08:04:40 PM PDT

  •  Karl Rove's Crossroads buddies should buy me (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Troubadour

    one for every election they've had a hand in corrupting  I'd have a sweet fleet!

    "Four more years!" (Obama Unencumbered - The Sequel)

    by jwinIL14 on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 08:10:25 PM PDT

  •  O. M. G. (6+ / 0-)

    and just this morning, I was commenting on how I was going to probably buy a new EV/hybrid with the odds on a new Prius.

    Want now. My birthday's in July, when can I pick mine up?

    Oh Mr Red.... you know how hard it is to find a good present for me?......no, not a new iPhone, I got a new iPhone.......

    in all fairness, he has muttered a few times he shoulda bought a Tesla when it came out.....

  •  At that price, if you buy one... (6+ / 0-)

    don't buy a red one.

    A recent study into bird behavior suggests that red cars are at the highest danger for being a target for defecating avians.

    In the study, conducted in June 2012 for online retailer Halfords on 1,140 cars in the U.K., a full 18% of all the red cars tested wound up being the target of a bird bathroom break. Blue cars were almost as targeted, at 14%. Rounding out the study, 11% of black cars, 7% of white cars, 3% of gray cars, and 1% of green cars were all fated to the carwash by the foul acts of wayward birds. Researchers performed their experiment both in the country and on the shore, but found little distinction between birds' pooping preferences based on location.

    http://news.yahoo.com/...

    Pretty good review of the Tesla there too.
    http://news.yahoo.com/...

    A learning experience is one of those things that says, 'You know that thing you just did? Don't do that.' Douglas Adams

    by dougymi on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 08:16:42 PM PDT

  •  It's pretty, and since it's American, if I had (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Troubadour, BYw, adrianrf, ashowboat

    50 grand, I'd buy one.

    "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." --M. L. King "You can't fix stupid" --Ron White -6.00, -5.18

    by zenbassoon on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 08:21:09 PM PDT

  •  Another option, buy stock (6+ / 0-)

    TSLA stock closed at $33.78 a share today. I bet it starts going up when these cars hit the road. I can't afford the car but I bought some stock and maybe I can cash it in and make a down payment in a couple of years.

    Try organic food, or as your grandparents called it, food.

    by madame damnable on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 08:21:29 PM PDT

    •  I plan on doing that eventually. (0+ / 0-)

      Tesla is a real productive company - something increasingly rare in an "economy" based on shuffling paper and conjuring nonexistent value.

      "I'm going to rub your faces in things you try to avoid." - Muad'Dib

      by Troubadour on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 08:49:37 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I would wait to see (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Troubadour

        how many they sell before calling them "productive." Musk has gotten a lot of help from the government to set up both Tesla and Space-X.

        •  They began delivering today (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          adrianrf

          months ahead of schedule and under budget.  Seems to be going pretty well.

          "I'm going to rub your faces in things you try to avoid." - Muad'Dib

          by Troubadour on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 09:13:52 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  They're sold out for more than a year! (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Troubadour

          How much wait and see do you plan to do?

          In capitalist America, bank robs you!

          by madhaus on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 01:09:03 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  They have a lot of reservations (0+ / 0-)

            for the car. That doesn't mean they have built, sold and delivered them.

            I've been to their facilities in both Fremont and LA. I watched designers at work on the Model S. There is still a real question if they will be able to keep up with demand if it continues long term. The real hurdle will be the next model, which is supposed to be within reach of the average person's budget.

            I'm not against the company; what they are doing is quite impressive and I hope they succeed. They have a lot of good people working there with experience at other car companies. Musk is a brilliant, if strange guy, but what he's doing is unprecedented. So I like to wait and see before declaring the company an unqualified success.

            •  Slightly incorrect. (0+ / 0-)

              The next model is Model X, which is a light SUV variant of Model X.  Wont' require a lot of changes from Model S or as much time, but it'll roll out in 2014.  After that is the Blue Star everyman car.

              "I'm going to rub your faces in things you try to avoid." - Muad'Dib

              by Troubadour on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 12:43:13 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  That's a new addition to the lineup (0+ / 0-)

                since I was there early last year. They only had three cars in the pipeline then and no SUV. The "everyman" car was always in their plans; I believe the Model X is a new concession to the hot market for luxury crossover SUVs from Porsche, Mercedes, Lexus, etc. Currently that is who Tesla is competing with, not Ford or GM.

                A quote from the LA Times article on the Model X announcement:

                Tesla has produced its $100,000 Roadster sport car in very small numbers — just 2,500 — with the help of British automaker Lotus, and it has yet to prove it can develop a complex vehicle from the ground up and bring it to market, analysts said.

                "It is a real challenge going from producing a few thousand cars to making 50,000 or 60,000," Koslowski said."

  •  How about y'all go in together (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Troubadour, CoolOnion, Mr Robert

    and buy ME one?

    The more we are, the less we need.

    by Fiddlegirl on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 08:30:32 PM PDT

  •  Actually, LCA analyses don't support the idea (15+ / 2-)

    that these kinds of consumerist disasters do a damn thing for the environment.

    The assumption that they do is based on the ludicrous conception that electricity is obtained from wall sockets, and that the refining of lanthanides and other materials are without vast external costs.

    Actually, the overwhelming majority of American electricity comes from burning filthy coal and filthy often fracked gas.   Despite much lying and fraud connected with the latter, it is not clean, and is responsible for about 1/5 of the dangerous fossil fuel waste now accumulating in the planetary atmosphere.

    The charging of electric cars involves (generally) the following energy transformations:   Chemical energy (gas and coal and sometimes petroleum) is converted into thermal energy, thermal energy is converted to mechanical energy, mechanical energy is converted to electric energy, electric energy is transmitted (at a thermodynamic penalty), converted to chemical energy, reconverted to electric energy and converted again to mechanical energy.

    A moment's reflection and a cursory knowledge of the second law thermodynamics and even a primitive understanding of the efficiencies of these transformations suggests that electric cars are a thermodynamic, and therefore environmental, nightmare.

    But we should never under estimate the potential for our population to lie to itself.

    We live in a country where the funding of schools is collapsing, where children cannot afford college educations, where substantial fractions of the population don't even have homes, roughly about 600,000 people as of this writing.

    But we have money to subsidize the Tesla car company.

    Never let it be said that we live in a country that cannot invent new ways to rob the poor to enrich the rich.

    The subsidy for this company, Tesla, is  a disgrace, in my view, and I wouldn't be caught dead being so irresponsible and morally paralyzed as to buy one or even drive one.

    For the cost of one Tesla electric S, we could provide between 50 and 100 high quality bicycles.    Bicycles are clean vehicles; cars - including all those represented in grand lies as "green cars" are not, nor will they ever be.

    Have a nice day.

    •  Congrats, NNadir. (13+ / 0-)

      You've been hide-rated for making educated statements.

      •  Really? (4+ / 0-)

        You know that for a fact?

        He comes across as an abusive pro-fission power-at-all-costs-and-Fukushima-wasn't-so-bad troll. He is so certain of his "education" and so defensively abusive to anyone who disagrees that he should be BANNED.

        His current tour-de-force rides the line. I'll let it go as he's not even worth a donut.

        Both parties are beholden to their corporate sponsors. The Democratic Party deigns to throw us a few bones from the table on which to gnaw and squabble over, but it's just kabuki.

        by ozsea1 on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 09:34:14 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  As wrong as NNadir is about nuclear power (4+ / 0-)

          they are completely right about cars versus bicycles.  Cars will never be sustainable.

          There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

          by AoT on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 10:00:55 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I prefer biking (4+ / 0-)

            but it has its limits. I could not bike to work, as much as I would rather.

            Both parties are beholden to their corporate sponsors. The Democratic Party deigns to throw us a few bones from the table on which to gnaw and squabble over, but it's just kabuki.

            by ozsea1 on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 10:58:22 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  "Cars will never be sustainable." (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Lawrence, disrael, IndieGuy, ozsea1

            That statement is not only insupportable, but preposterous on its face.  The total potential sustainable energy is orders of magnitude larger than all non-sustainable energy currently produced on Earth.

            "I'm going to rub your faces in things you try to avoid." - Muad'Dib

            by Troubadour on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 11:31:31 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Cars running on fossil fuels won't be sustainable. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            ozsea1

            Econ 101 tells us that other types of energy will become financially viable.  Those will probably be cleaner, although that's not certain.  It's a matter of "when" is all.

            "If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich.." - John F. Kennedy: Inaugural Address, January 20, 1961. We are the 99%.

            by IndieGuy on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 07:08:51 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  What they make cars out of is not sustainable (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              joe wobblie

              There's only so much materials to go around.  

              There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

              by AoT on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 07:34:16 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Cars are made out of lots of things. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Troubadour

                Materials and manufacturing techniques change.  Some are more sustainable than others.  But the automobile, in one form or another, is here to stay.

                "If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich.." - John F. Kennedy: Inaugural Address, January 20, 1961. We are the 99%.

                by IndieGuy on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 10:33:31 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  Cars are HERE. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Troubadour

            We need to work harder to make them more sustainable.

            Lots of people can't ride bikes. It isn't an either/or situation and arguments like this are simplistic at best.

      •  No problem. I'm used to it. (0+ / 0-)

        It goes with the territory.   People generally don't like to have their cherished assumptions questioned.

    •  You don't have a single link to back anything (9+ / 0-)

      you are saying. First off what you are comparing is burning oil in a car to electric generation in a power plant. Straight off the procurement of oil is one of the most evil actions the US has undertaken in its history (and that's saying something - we are not Boy Scouts). Secondly, however your "second law" works burning in a power plant can still be made more efficient then burning in a couple of hundred million cars. Third, its a majority but hardly "overwhelming" - http://upload.wikimedia.org/.... Fourth, the exhaust from cars is giving our children reduced lung capacity and a host of other problems that burning from power plants is not.

      •  Please remove your HR (7+ / 0-)

        That was in no way HRable.  If you disagree with it fine, but the HR is totally out of bounds.

        There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

        by AoT on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 09:15:09 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Also, I agree with you that NNADIR is wrong (6+ / 0-)

        but that is far from HRable.

        There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

        by AoT on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 09:18:57 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Thanks for your comment and the silly Wikipedia... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        alain2112

        ...link and of course, your hide rate.

        I feel like I've achieved something when I get a hide rate of this type, though in truth, I was very fond of getting troll rates years ago, since troll rates struck me as more poetic.

        However the advantage of hide rates is that they are generally about hiding, sometimes from me and my abrasive personality, but often - at least in my opinion - something called reality.

        In my tenure in this space, where I have learned, much to my discomfort that members of my party can embrace ignorance, fear and superstition as much as those crazy guys in the Republican party, I have written more than 388 diaries.

        I am hardly a popular writer here, but I do have 186 people who follow my diaries, which is um, almost ten times - I learned on checking - as many as  you have.

        I would estimate that more than 3/4 of my diaries contain links not just to googled stuff, but reference to the primary scientific literature, which I read extensively.

        I am far more aware of air pollution, and its effects, I would bet, than you are.

        Many of my diaries include this link - since you need links to think - to the website of the World Heath Organization:   WHO:  World Health Organization, 3.3 million air pollution deaths per year.

        I have long advocated (and studied, generally on a fairly sophisticated level) the prospects for phasing out all dangerous fossil fuels and have extensively covered some of the scientific studies that approach methods of doing this.

        I have been writing about oil, gas, and coal phaseouts for many years, and probably one of the better (at least in the literary if not scientific sense) - of the many diaries I have written on this topic - dates to 2007.

        It is here:  The Utility of Light: Getting Real with the Existing Energy Infrastructure.

        You feel that I need to provide links so you can think.    My question would be whether you would actually benefit from such a link, because you appear to have invested yourself in smug, glib, rhetoric that pervades the unfortunate mentality that pervades the energy conversation is this awful time of rote dogmatic myopia.

        However, despite my doubts about your educational status and intellect, I am willing to indulge your intellectual laziness by providing two relatively recent links to the primary scientific literature.   If you're not as lazy as I think you are, you will go to a library with access and open them.

        Environ. Sci. Technol. 2012, 46, 2018−2024.  >

        I actually quoted some excerpts from this paper in a diary in this space, China Already Has 100 Million Electric Vehicles

        Another "link" to the externalities of the stupid electric car game is found in the National Research Council's report on the car CULTure shell game in the United States:

        Transitions to Alternative Transportation Technologies--Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicles

        If you're too busy hide rating people on backwater websites for tweaking your glib fantasies, and need a quick summary of what the report from the National Academy of Sciences says, here's a "sound bite" quality link:  

        Summary

        My citation of the latter report, by the way, does not mean that I agree with the content.   I believe we should phase out the car CULTure entirely, and I have long been an advocate of dimethyl ether as the ideal alternative fuel for however few self propelled vehicles may be required after the deconstruction of this awful CULTure.   However I do not expect anything will be done.   I expect the stupidity of glib smug Westerners who rail on in praise of self indulgent millionaires will cause the planetary environmental structure to collapse by catastrophe.

        I don't write as much as I used to here, because I'm filled with cynicism and disgust and do not believe that there are very many Americans, left or right, who have even the smallest conception of what needs to be done.

        As far as I'm concerned, we're rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic and listening to the wonderful rendition of "Nearer My God to Thee" of the wonderful Titanic ship's orchestra.

        If your approach to this serious matter of climate change with the absurd contention that providing a few electric cars to self indulgent smug semi-literate millionaires, you have no conception whatsover of the magnitude of the disaster that is now unfolding and are, apparently, far too lazy to find out about it.

        Like I say, I appreciate the hide rate, but now, my appreciation aside, do me a favor, take it and go fuck yourself.

        Have a nice weekend.

        •  Thank you for the link supporting my point (0+ / 0-)

          http://pubs.acs.org/...
          Even in China, which has the dirtiest electricity production in the world, the author's recognized pollution is lessened by electric cars:

          However, intake fraction is often greater for CVs than for EVs because combustion emissions are generally closer to population centers for CVs (tailpipe emissions) than for EVs (power plant emissions).
          We would all like to phase out cars completely but in the mean time, contrary to your posts, electric cars are better for humanity than gas. If your point is that electric cars wrongly support the car culture then that is what you should have said to begin with instead of ignorant drivel claiming that electric cars are worse than gas.
          •  Thank you for your serious misapprehension (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            alain2112

            of the content of the article.

            It definitely obviates your laziness and sloppy thinking.

            The paper if yiou fucking opened it as opposed to lazily reading the abstract contains the mildly interesting fact that the mortality rate from electric cars in that country is nearly triple the mortality of straight up gasoline cars in the city of Shanghai because of particulates.

            In the actual paper, this data doesn't require a careful read, it's found in table one, on page 2021.

            But why should you give a fuck about these deaths?

            By the way - not that I will hide rate you for being so insipid, your fantasy that American electricity is clean everywhere is another indication of your low level of familiarity with energy issues.  

            The EIA publishes state by state data on sources of electricity, not that you'd bother to read it.

            It is also provides data on international consumption of entire nation's coal use.

            One may learn on the EIA website that the United States of America, where shit for brains people advocate subsidizing electric cars for millionaires out of intellectual and moral laziness, burns as much coal as the entire nation of China, despite the fact that China has four times as many people as China does.

            The average continuous power consumption of a Chinese citizen is 1/12 of the average American.

            Nevertheless, you're here to smugly imply that you are somehow better than the Chinese, that their electricity is "dirty" and yours is not.

            For the record, on a per capita basis, China is a far cleaner nation than the United States.

            Moreover, China has a realistic policy for phasing out coal for electricity production, and predictably, you smugly assume that China is "dirty," and that somehow you - an advocate of subsidizing and talking up - again, insipidly - toys for millionaires, are clean compared to Chinese.

            You're out to lunch, a real zero.

            Enjoy your Sunday, and take that subsidized electric toy out for a high speed spin on a freeway, and try to avoid hitting any folks behind the Tortilla Curtain.

            •  Do you read what you write? (0+ / 0-)

              No I don't feel like paying $35 for your article which I'm sure doesn't even support your point. Even your reply is self contradictory - if China has a realistic policy for phasing our coal for electricity production then isn't it much better that Chinese own electric cars than gas? Honestly you are in such a hurry to disagree with me line by line that you don't even bother supporting your own assertions.

              That said, and even though your false claim actually supports me, here is reality

              China passed the U.S. as the top carbon polluter in 2007; it now emits more than the U.S. and India combined, according to the U.S. Energy Information Administration.
              Yet with 1.3 billion people, power-hungry industries and scant oil or natural gas, it has no immediate alternatives to coal for fueling its economy. China gets 70 percent of its energy from coal, three times the U.S. figure. It even converts coal into diesel fuel and ammonia that’s used for making fertilizer.
    •  According to McKinsey, plug-in cars impose... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Troubadour, Geenius at Wrok

      ....a carbon-abatement cost.

      http://www.altenergystocks.com/...

      Best thing you can do for the environment is...

      (i) replace appliances
      (ii) retrofit residential HVAC
      (iii) full hybrid cars

      Among worst things...

      (i) gas plant CCS retrofit
      (ii) coal CCS retrofit
      (iii) plug-in hybrids

      Learn about Centrist Economics, learn about Robert Rubin's Hamilton Project. www.hamiltonproject.org

      by PatriciaVa on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 08:50:43 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  His post is flawed and let me explain why (7+ / 0-)
        unless the owner has the foresight and dedication to buy solar panels or wind turbines to generate the electricity his PHEV or EV will use
        Of course many owners do have the for site to check on their local power plants or supplement. But even when they don't a typical car lasts 15 years and a plug-in perhaps much longer since electric engines outlast oil burning. So buying an electric car is an investment in the future (one we hope has cleaner electricity, as does the former company of the author of your post - http://www.axionpower.com/... ) and on top of which its going to take a long time to switch over the 200 million cars in this country. Beyond which carbon emission is just one benefit of electric cars - been to LA recently?
      •  The best thing you can do for the environment (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        alain2112, wsexson

        is eschew animal products and ride a bike.  The things you mention pale in comparison when discussing reductions in GHGs.

        There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

        by AoT on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 09:18:09 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  You have to take opportunity cost (0+ / 0-)

          into consideration.  If civilization had just skipped the fossil fuel era altogether and gone straight to solar, wind, and various passive storage media, we wouldn't be anywhere near where we are now in science or technology.

          "I'm going to rub your faces in things you try to avoid." - Muad'Dib

          by Troubadour on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 09:30:54 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I'm not talking about the past (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            IndieGuy

            I'm talking about now and the future.  Not having fossil fuels would have limited humans in a lot of ways but that doesn't mean that we should be okay with them now.

            There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

            by AoT on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 09:47:18 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Naturally, the question is the ideal path (0+ / 0-)

              of transition between here and there.

              "I'm going to rub your faces in things you try to avoid." - Muad'Dib

              by Troubadour on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 09:48:30 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Indeed, and the best path is to not have a car (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                too many people

                or eat animal products unless you absolutely have to.

                There are other more proactive measures we could take but I probably can't advocate for them on DailyKos.

                There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

                by AoT on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 09:52:31 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Animal products I agree with. (0+ / 0-)

                  But you're only referring to cars via a "minimum activity" standard that is simply Luddite, and I can't agree with that.

                  "I'm going to rub your faces in things you try to avoid." - Muad'Dib

                  by Troubadour on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 11:32:46 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  No, cars are a huge waste of resources and (0+ / 0-)

                    people shouldn't, for the most part, own them.  This is not being a luddite, it's looking at what cars do to the environment and looking at how inefficient they are and saying that they are a bad thing.  Bicycles aren't a better choice because they are older, they're better because they are better.

                    There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

                    by AoT on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 07:44:23 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

      •  McKinsey (0+ / 0-)

        No reason they would toe the oil-worshipping line, right? I am sure their study is completely apples to apples and showed all the power and particulates produced in exploration, drilling, transport, refinement, distribution, and operating gas stations.  Plus I am sure they included the externalities imposed by needing to spend billions on military operations to keep the oil coming.

        Do you post about anything here that isn't corporate apologies?

        In capitalist America, bank robs you!

        by madhaus on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 01:04:33 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  You're talking out of your ass. (10+ / 0-)

      Nothing you just said bears any resemblance to reality.  EVs are a vast improvement over gas-guzzling cars even from a dirty grid, and that's not even necessary since there are ways to get the power with zero-emission sources.  Your statement is deranged bullshit, and if anyone wants to HR it as an unworthy piece of deranged bullshit, they're welcome to.

      "I'm going to rub your faces in things you try to avoid." - Muad'Dib

      by Troubadour on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 08:51:29 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  asdf (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      disrael, Troubadour, adrianrf, ozsea1, madhaus

      How much electricity does it take to turn oil into one gallon of gas and get it to you? Do that comparison. Everyone acts as if the oil companies don't use electricity, or what they use is clean and not from burning there own shit.

    •  Bicycles? HAhahahaha! Just TRY to commute ... (5+ / 0-)

      ... and do weekly shopping on a bicycle in the South during the summer! Temps are still 90+ degrees at 6:00PM, humidity running 90+%, always the danger of abrupt thunderstorms.

      And speaking of moral paralysis, your Johnny One-Note support of "Nuclear Now, Nuclear FOREVAH!" is pretty damned paralyzed.

      The money changers Jesus threw out of the Temple are back as the GOP, using his corpse as a ventriloquist's dummy. (Hat tip to Kossack "Stuart Heady")

      by WereBear Walker on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 09:38:37 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yeah, I've done that, riding a bike in 100+ (4+ / 0-)

        It's uncomfortable but it's far from impossible.  Of course most people only care about stopping global warming as long as they still get to be comfortable.

        Buying a different car is not going to solve the problem.

        There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

        by AoT on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 09:55:34 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Then why "waste" all the material on a bicycle? (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          IndieGuy, WereBear Walker

          Just walk.  Walk in rain, sleet, hail, blazing heat.  It's not impossible.

          "I'm going to rub your faces in things you try to avoid." - Muad'Dib

          by Troubadour on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 11:33:46 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Because a bike is more efficient than walking (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Satya1, alain2112

            and consumes less resources over longer distances.  Not to mention the fact that you can ride a bike distances that it would be impossible to cover on foot for most people.  Of course, you don't actually care about that, you just want your car and fuck everyone who tells you it might be bad for the world.

            There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

            by AoT on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 07:40:49 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Bikes have their place. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              WereBear Walker

              But they are not for everyone everywhere.

              Me, I can't hear well, I have bad balance and tend to fall over a lot, my vision is poor and I really shouldn't ride a bike out in traffic.

              I loved living in cities where I could ride public trans. I don't happen to live in one right now, and that isn't going to change anytime soon, if ever.

        •  Riding a bike at a moderate pace (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          BYw, AoT

          Is a lot cooler.

          If you go to hot or hot and humid countries, the first thing you may notice is people walk and bike at a moderate pace to avoid over heating.

          We always find visitors accustomed to cooler climates walking too fast and then overheating, you know, the pale folks with the red faces drenched in sweat looking at the locals and wondering how we tolerate the heat.

          Secret: walk/bike slowly.

          What about my Daughter's future?

          by koNko on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 01:49:44 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Try an electric bike (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        AoT, Satya1

        e-bikes are the most common EV in the world and used by hundreds of millions of people, actually.

        While Americans are very focused on auto "EVs", the real EV revolution of the past decade gets very little attention - the populist revolution in electric bikes and scooters in Asia, Europe  and now the urban US.

        "My EVs" are an electric bike for wife and daughter, and NFC passes for the public transit system which is mainly electric trains and many (but not all) electric buses for the whole family. We don't own a car.

        What about my Daughter's future?

        by koNko on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 01:44:50 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Utter bullshit and lies (0+ / 0-)

      I can see why others hide rated this oil propaganda.  So no electricity is ever used in oil refinement, transport, distribution, or operating gas stations?  More oil isn't used in e proration and shipping?

      Your post is deceitful and dishonest shillery.

      In capitalist America, bank robs you!

      by madhaus on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 01:07:55 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  promoting bicycles is "oil propaganda"?! (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        IndieGuy, AoT

        Wow, that is insidious.

        I don't suppose that HRing this will make anything better, but accusing a Kossack of "shillery" is always prima facie HRable -- especially when the assertion depends on assuming that the poster means the opposite of what s/he says.

        •  The person advocating bikes wasn't the one (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          disrael

          I was referring to.  Oil-funded shills always have the same few talking points.  Batteries in the landfills!  Coal-powered electricity is worse than a gas car!  You can't drive the car 500 miles a day so nobody would want one!  It's insane that we're subsidizing rich people!

          When I hear those tiresome arguments again and again, I really doubt they were arrived at independently.

          Now if I ended up mistakenly replying to the wrong message, I apologize.

          In capitalist America, bank robs you!

          by madhaus on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 11:51:23 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Uprated to counter the HRs. (3+ / 0-)

      Nothing HR'able about that, folks.

      One quibble about bicycles:  Not all of us live in city centers, just a mile or two from our jobs.  Bicycles have their place but they will never be a major part of any transportation solution.

      "If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich.." - John F. Kennedy: Inaugural Address, January 20, 1961. We are the 99%.

      by IndieGuy on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 07:05:41 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  You don't need to live a couple of miles (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Satya1

        away for bikes to be a good choice.  Anything up to ten miles is still doable in terms of time, depending on terrain of course.

        More importantly, I disagree, bicycles will be a huge part of the solution, but they won't be the whole solution.  The other half of the solution is public transportation.  Combine those two and you have the answer.

        There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

        by AoT on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 08:02:51 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  You still need to include (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          IndieGuy

          "more sustainable" cars in the equation. I don't like far-flung suburbs, but they are here to stay and have been for decades. Only becoming more prevalent in many regions. Public trans + bikes will not solve those commuting problems, when the commute isn't necessarily to an urban center, and public trans isn't feasible in a rural environment.

          We've built our world around the car in the last century. There is no getting around that. We can change how we build our world in the future, but that doesn't make what is here now go away.

        •  My daily commute: (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          badscience, zett

          I drive 10 miles from my home to the Interstate.  Once there it's another 25 miles to the commuter bus lot, from where I have an hour-and-a-half ride into the city.  Evening is the reverse.  Lather, rinse, repeat.

          The nearest grocery store is seven miles from my home, on winding, hilly, unmarked country roads.  Affordable grocery shopping, with quality merchandise is further away.

          For me, a bicycle is something for weekend recreation.  It is not a viable commuting option.  I use public transportation as I can, but it does not reach out this far.  There are millions of people in this country in similar circumstances.   And no, I will not consider moving.  Most of those other millions doubtless agree.

          My point is that bicycles and public transportation are not "the" answer.  They're part of it.  Alternative-fuel vehicles are the missing link.

          "If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich.." - John F. Kennedy: Inaugural Address, January 20, 1961. We are the 99%.

          by IndieGuy on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 10:15:59 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I still disagree (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            IndieGuy

            Cars aren't going to be very viable once we run out of cheap energy, and that is quickly happening.  I think it's inevitable that personal autos are going to die off.

            I do see what you're saying though, and if I'm wrong then I think what you describe is most likely the best solution.

            There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

            by AoT on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 10:34:10 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  You're missing several points (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      zett

      Yes, there are energy losses inherent in the conversions necessary to charge batteries to drive electric motors. However, these are mitigated by fact that electric motors are far more energy efficient than internal combustion engines. Automotive IC engines typically convert no more than 25% of the energy content of fuel into crankshaft power, and usually considerably less. Electric motors typically convert 90% of the electrical energy supplied to useful work.

      Certainly, from a greenhouse gas perspective, the value of electric cars depends entirely on how electricity used to charge them is generated. Yes, the benefit is minimal when electrical power comes from fossil fuels. However, If it's from nuclear, wind, or solar, electric cars help quite a bit.

      Electric cars allow carbon-free power sources to be used as an energy source for transportation. The only other way to use these directly for motive power is an electrified rail system (which is badly needed, but will take decades to get in place, and will always have some holes and gaps requiring other transportation sources).

      The environmental impact of mining rare earths, lithium, etc. is indeed grim, but it doesn't have to be. Right now, these materials are often not recycled, and there is essentially no regulation of the mining process. That need not, and should not, continue. Compare the environmental impact of steel production or oil refining a century ago versus today. Recycling, regulation, and economic incentives for cleaner operation haven't eliminated pollution, but they surely have reduced it greatly.

      And as far as bicycling  - it is indeed more environmentally friendly than any type of car. But quite obviously, not everyone will or can bicycle to work. (I used to enjoy my bicycle commute. But until someone discovers a way of regenerating cartilage and bone destroyed by autoimmune disease, my bicycling days are done.)

    •  My house runs almost completely (0+ / 0-)

      on my PV solar system. So when I get an electric car, it will be an amazingly green investment. You need to learn some humility; the Tesla is progress, even if it is not a panacea.

  •  OK, but... (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Troubadour, Nada Lemming, NYFM, Timaeus

    It's a beautiful car, to be sure. I'm sure it's a blast to drive. It's definitely helping move the technology of electric vehicles forward by leaps and bounds, and I'm grateful for that part alone.

    But I'm not going to buy one simple reason.

    Look at that huge touch screen in the middle of the console. Sure, it's high tech and very pretty, but I want controls on my dash that that give me good tactile feedback, controls that I can use quickly and easily without having to take my eyes of the road. It's impossible to use any of the touch screen controls of this vehicle without taking your eyes off the road and searching the screen, then keeping your eyes on the screen to make sure your finger lands in the right place. That's a recipe for disaster.

  •  Hmmm. Don't see a toaster in those pix. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Troubadour, Nada Lemming

    You'd think there'd be the capability to run neon-signs as well, no?

    Other than that, given such improvements will come later, it certainly seems like a thing to do if you have decent money and a need to drive.


    The Internet is just the tail of the Corporate Media dog.

    by Jim P on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 08:44:15 PM PDT

  •  Nissan Leaf costs much less (6+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Troubadour, CoolOnion, NYFM, adrianrf, koNko, javan

    There are other pure EV options out there.  Another one on the board is awesome.  Even in Dallas I rarely see a plug for EV cars downtown (very rarely, but they are there).

    But much like the previous Tesla cars, once I put cash down for an order, just how long will it take for me to get the car?  One year? Two?  

    Minority rights should never be subject to majority vote.

    by lostboyjim on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 08:55:17 PM PDT

    •  Well, it's Dallas - there you go. (0+ / 0-)

      Dunno about turnaround time.  Inquire with Tesla.  

      "I'm going to rub your faces in things you try to avoid." - Muad'Dib

      by Troubadour on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 09:00:52 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I'll be getting one this week (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      zett

      I love the Tesla styling but I can't afford the expense.  The Leaf does cost much less and fits my life and driving habits.  I also appreciate Nissan for committing to full electric vehicle production in large numbers.  They have a large plant opening in Tennessee in December 2012  for Leaf and battery production.
      We put up solar panels two years ago for electricity generation and this will help charge the vehicle.

  •  and those who can afford to have a duty to (10+ / 0-)

    chip in and by one for me.

    "Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face" & "Polka will never die." - H. Dresden.

    by bnasley on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 08:55:39 PM PDT

  •  My wallet is not fat enough. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Troubadour
  •  I'm going to go with (5+ / 0-)

    I don't have a moral obligation to buy one of these and instead I'll keep using my bicycle.  But thanks for playing.

    The amount of resources that goes into a car, whatever sort of power it uses, is far, far more than you use if you stick to human powered transport and public transportation.

    There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

    by AoT on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 09:03:48 PM PDT

    •  That's a solid option too. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      AoT, BYw, Zinman

      But if you do buy a car and can afford one in that range, that's the obligatory option.

      "I'm going to rub your faces in things you try to avoid." - Muad'Dib

      by Troubadour on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 09:15:11 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  One of the things that frustrates me is that (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Geenius at Wrok

        these are presented as a way for people who don't need cars to still have cars.  Most people I've know don't need cars.  They think they need cars, and cars make life easier, but they don't need them.  This includes places where it gets cold and snows and whatever.  For that much money you could get ten fully enclosed human powered vehicles to cart around your shit.

        There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

        by AoT on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 09:22:07 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  What's your definition of "need"? (0+ / 0-)

          Have 50% of people survive long enough to successfully procreate?  60%  80%?  Live ten years after procreation?  Twenty?  Man does not live by bread alone, but by the existence of possibilities beyond what is necessary.  Only in this way is entropy defeated and extinction eluded.  Sorry, but you don't "need" the computer you're using to type these comments on, nor the electricity consumed in the process.  There's a lot of cognitive dissonance in the things you're saying.

          "I'm going to rub your faces in things you try to avoid." - Muad'Dib

          by Troubadour on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 11:54:40 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Where did I say I needed those things? (0+ / 0-)

            You're the one that said I have a duty to buy this car.

            More importantly, the amount of resources it takes to build one of these car is huge.  Quit pretending like electricity means theres no pollution with the car.

            And of course, whenever I make points about how people don't need cars nearly as often as they say they do some stoner philosopher has to step and say the same shit. "Hey man, like, what do we really need?  Ya know."

            There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

            by AoT on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 07:38:06 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  Love to, but (5+ / 0-)

    I'm just trying to keep my '94 Camry alive.  I honestly cannot conceive of the idea of spending 50K on a car.   Are you friggin' kidding me?  I can't disagree it's an awesome car, but I'm not in that market.    

    You can't spell CRAZY without R-AZ.

    by rb608 on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 09:06:50 PM PDT

  •  Why was NNadir HR'd for citing the Subsidy? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    AoT, wsexson

    I also believe that it's wrong for a struggling family in East LA to help Larry Ellison buy a Tesla vehicle in NorCal.

    It's a 10K (7.5K federal + 2.5K state) transfer from the poor to the rich.

    For a community that often cites income and wealth inequality as the primary problem in our nation, so many of us have no problem with fiscal policies, such as this tax credit, which actually exacerbate it.

    Learn about Centrist Economics, learn about Robert Rubin's Hamilton Project. www.hamiltonproject.org

    by PatriciaVa on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 09:08:09 PM PDT

    •  Because we're trying to create an industry. (6+ / 0-)

      Who does it help if the barriers to entry remain astronomical?  Just the same old corporatized companies that have outsourced everything but their logos.  And the environment has no benefit, of course, because these other countries have no environmental standards in manufacturing even if they build cars to US specifications.  It's delusional to be outraged that a highly beneficial, nascent industry receives a tiny bit of subsidy compared to the vast sums that go into propping up their oil-guzzling competitors.  So it's not a subsidy for Tesla - it's a measure to level the playing field.

      "I'm going to rub your faces in things you try to avoid." - Muad'Dib

      by Troubadour on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 09:17:33 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  So why don't we subsidizebicycle production in the (0+ / 0-)

        US?

        If we invested the same 25 million that we invested in the auto industry in te bicycle industry we could change the face of the world.  And do say in a way that would last far longer.

        There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

        by AoT on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 10:14:40 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Opportunity cost. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          milkbone

          Bicycles have a radically different tradeoff of time/money vs. automobiles, and usually not a superior one.  Ludditism is not an environmental argument, and not an economic strategy - just because something uses less absolute energy does not make it more efficient.  Instead of bicycles, why not invest all of the money in the most confortable, ergonomic shoes known to physics?  Same reason.

          "I'm going to rub your faces in things you try to avoid." - Muad'Dib

          by Troubadour on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 10:24:28 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Bicycles are a far superior technology in regards (0+ / 0-)

            to the utilization of energy.  In fact they are the most energy efficient form of transportation that has been invented.  Using a better more sustainable form of technology isn't luddism, it's common sense.

            And that should have been 25 billion, not million.  Not to mention all the other absurd subsidies we have for cars.  The amount of resources it takes to build and operate a car is so vast that it's absurd.  Using a ton of metal and plastic to transport a single person will be recognized as the absurdity it is in the not too far future.

            There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

            by AoT on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 07:32:53 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  East LA kids need relief from smog induced (6+ / 0-)

      reduced lung capacity.

      http://www.usc.edu/...

      If the East LA struggling family is not getting back money from the government - much less paying any then it is a crime but let's not make it a two wrongs make a right that we should not subsidize plug-ins because we are wrongly taxing struggling families.

      If anything we should be subsidizing even more - China does 50% and then everyone could afford these cars.

  •  Lithium futures. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Troubadour

    Where are we, now that we need us most?

    by Frank Knarf on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 09:16:37 PM PDT

    •  Lithium futures will follow a similar pattern (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      jethrock, BYw

      to those of silicon futures following the solar explosion: First demand skyrockets with low initial supply, causing to talk of a "shortage."  Then new factories are brought on line allowing higher throughput, stabilizing prices and eventually lowering them beneath the initial level but at higher volume.  Then when the new factories reach capacity, the same cycle recurs.  With each iteration, the ultimate price is lower and the volume higher, benefiting the overall economy.  

      "I'm going to rub your faces in things you try to avoid." - Muad'Dib

      by Troubadour on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 09:33:19 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Looking good. sigh. n/t (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Troubadour

    "I think it is much more interesting to live not knowing than to have answers that might be wrong." Richard Feynman

    by leema on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 09:16:55 PM PDT

  •  Union Made? Damn Right (13+ / 0-)

    Trumka: speech to the 35th UAW Constitutional Convention

      . . . On the West Coast -- with the UAW, the AFL-CIO, the California State Federation of Labor, and the local labor councils all working as a team -- we’re ready to ensure that the closed NUMMI plant re-opens its gates immediately after the American flag and the UAW flag are raised above the plant.

    Tesla Motor vehicles will be built in the United States, in the state of California, by American workers who have a UAW card in their pockets and the union in their hearts.

    As union-made vehicles roll off the assembly lines in Fremont, we take equal pride in what is happening on the other side of our country. Fisker Automotive will be assembling clean, green, top-quality vehicles in the idled General Motors plant in Wilmington, Delaware.

    These vehicles, too, will bear the UAW emblem. They will be built by proud UAW members. And they will prove that workers enjoying American rights and earning middle-class wages can make world-class products. . . .

    Netroots Nation: Burning Man for Progressives

    by Gilmore on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 09:37:52 PM PDT

  •  Nice car, but (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    wsexson

    anyone buying one has shit for brains unless they are extremely wealthy in which case I hope they end up with a lemon that drains every last dime they have for the mechanics who service the thing.

    Honesty pays, but it doesn't seem to pay enough to suit some people. Kin Hubbard

    by Mr Robert on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 09:38:36 PM PDT

  •  Car PRON! Sorry can't afford. Looks great though (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Troubadour

    I suppose I'm probably not going to get to rub on one in RIO VISTA!! Can't help myself. How many times does Rio Vista, CA Delta USA get national exposure? Gotta pimp the hometown!!

    The local Chevy dealer did get in a couple of Volts in a few months ago. I swerved off Front St and into the parking lot. Rubbed on them, peeked in the windows and went nice ride. But the 2004 Chevy Tracker is paid for and is a great hauler for "stuff". Oh and did I mention I can't afford to buy a new ride?

    if a habitat is flooded, the improvement for target fishes increases by an infinite percentage...because a habitat suitability index that is even a tiny fraction of 1 is still infinitely higher than zero, which is the suitability of dry land to fishes.

    by mrsgoo on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 09:42:45 PM PDT

  •  Nice presentation Troubadour (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Troubadour, Lawrence

    It's refreshing to have a moral imperative laid out so cleanly. I also appreciate that you are not asking anyone who can't afford the new Tesla Model S to buy one.

    There is a lasting feeling of satisfaction to be an "early adopter" of green technologies. Being part of a righteous movement which accelerates adoption of green technologies just feels good. Oh, and by the bye, that car is clearly going to be great fun to drive.

    "11 dimensional chess" is a clever form of using magical thinking to obfuscate the obvious.

    by Zinman on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 10:14:02 PM PDT

  •  Troubadour. Your crassness has kept me away (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LaughingPlanet

    from your diaries in the passed couple years. Especially your criticism of us "LIBERALS"

    Meanwhile I love your space diaries.

    And today I couldn't agree with this more:

    In other words, if you are an upper-middle-class person, you are obligated to buy the Tesla Model S.  It's not a statement, it's not a toy, it's your duty - pure and simple.  You have no other choice.  Lexus, Mercedes, BWM, Audi...these cars are no longer on the menu if you are not a complete douchebag.  Everything you want and more is in the Model S, so the only reason not to buy it if you have the means would be if you were a mentally disturbed right-wing sociopath who likes the idea of global warming and resource wars.  So if you have the money and looking to buy a car in this range, this is it - the only option at your disposal.  And let no one call themselves a liberal or progressive who can afford it that fails to buy this car.  Hell, chip in together to buy one if you can't afford one individually.  Clean up the streets and sexify them at the same time.
    Well done.

    Love will save you from the cold light of boring reality... But it won't save me -- SWANS

    by jethrock on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 10:24:34 PM PDT

  •  I like the fact that it's called Tesla. (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Troubadour, NYFM, Kinak, Satya1, factbased

    The modern world is built on Tesla creations not Edison but he got good press an Tesla didn't.

    •  I love the name too. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Kinak, defluxion10

      I'm not familiar with the history of the company getting its name, but if I had to take a wild guess, I'd say it wasn't Elon's choice - his signature for naming things is something trite or meaningless.  He works miracles, but he can't name for shit.  Before Paypal was Paypal he called it X.com.  And, of course, SpaceX is Space Exploration Technologies Corporation - real bang-zoom stuff, right?  And the Falcon rocket is just one step up from "Eagle" in terms of triteness.  "Dragon" spacecraft...sigh.  My guess is if Elon had named the car company it would have been Electric Vehicle Motors.

      "I'm going to rub your faces in things you try to avoid." - Muad'Dib

      by Troubadour on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 11:43:36 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Tesla > Edison (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      defluxion10

      In case anyone missed it, The Oatmeal did a comic about Tesla and Edison a while back. There was also a sort of rebuttal in Forbes and a response to that by The Oatmeal again.

      http://theoatmeal.com/...
      http://theoatmeal.com/...

      How about an Office of Fact Based Initiatives?

      by factbased on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 10:36:03 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I'd like to get this for my next car (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Troubadour

    This is the car anyone who can afford it should be getting.

    It's got the looks, so nobody who's looking for something in that price range has an excuse to look elsewhere. If you get the low end model, taking 45 minutes every 3 or 4 hours on a vacation to charge the car isn't that huge a lifestyle change for a lot of people, especially those in cities. I never drive those long distances hardly.

    This is only just above a high end Volkswagen. A  lot of people could make this work.

  •  Elon Musk (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Troubadour, profewalt

    The dude seems like he walked out of an Aeon Flux episode.

    I wonder if he's an alien taking over the world?

    Honestly. I actually wonder that.

    I halfway hope he does.

    •  Totally. I'm an unabashed Elon fanboy. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      jethrock

      The guy should change his last name to Atreides.

      "I'm going to rub your faces in things you try to avoid." - Muad'Dib

      by Troubadour on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 11:45:21 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Too bad Peter Thiel is such a douche. nt (0+ / 0-)

        Love will save you from the cold light of boring reality... But it won't save me -- SWANS

        by jethrock on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 12:35:16 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Actually, Musk was kind of dick to Martin Eberhard (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          AoT, zett

          The founder of Tesla.

          Musk is a pretty sharp guy, but like Steve Jobs, a person that tends to appropriate the work of others claiming it as his own and shameless self-promoter with a bit of a personality cult.

          That can be useful to make companies and projects work, but such people tend to step on others a lot and are not universally admired by ex-collegues.

          I don't know if Eberhard has settled his lawsuit against Tesla, but Musk pretty-much grabbed the company from him like a typical VC ass-hat and then bad-mouthed him in the press.

          What about my Daughter's future?

          by koNko on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 02:12:23 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  People bought Hummers for what $80-90,000 (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Troubadour, fly, jethrock, Egalitare

    and they shell out almost $40,000 for Dodge Ram's and Trucks like 'em so the whole "People can't afford these vehicles" is BS since most of those trucks never see a real day of real Truck-work by the people who buy them an probably won't till they've been resold 4 or 5 times and they're 10-plus years old but those very large numbers of people managed to get the loans to buy those Gas Hogs.

    •  PS I mentioned the (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Troubadour

      Real Truck-work part meaning they where not buying these Trucks for a need that only a Truck could do an so make having to shell out that kind of money a necessity but it was for The Look of having&driving 'em.I want a truck but if I get one I want one from like the mid-'80's or earlier even though they are even worse gas hogs than new truck they can take being a Work Truck unlike these newer "Paper-Tigers".

    •  Great point. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      defluxion10

      All these jagoffs with their suburban monster trucks for "hauling" groceries and their driver's egos, but $50-$60k is just too much for them?  Right.  Anyone who can afford it and chooses to buy a regular car or truck is just a douche.  A giant, sudsy douche.

      "I'm going to rub your faces in things you try to avoid." - Muad'Dib

      by Troubadour on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 11:47:15 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  People bought Hummers because of the tax (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      profewalt, badscience, defluxion10

      Break.  All those shills complaining about subsidies to EVs should shut their cracking pinholes, because none of them were complaining when heavy SUVs were given a goddamned $125,000 tax credit to business owners.  Yes, $125k.  And those paid oil-suckers whine about a $7,500 tax credit for clean new tech.

      The SUV tax credit is still there, and it's still around $30K.

      In capitalist America, bank robs you!

      by madhaus on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 12:49:55 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  This is my dream car. nt (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Troubadour

    There is only one planet suitable for human habitation in our solar system.

    by too many people on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 11:37:29 PM PDT

  •  Beautiful car. Not the car for me. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jethrock

    There is no way that car can hold two people, five dogs (three if them retrievers), and three cats who really don't like each other. Or a tree, or a quarter's worth of recycling. These are all reasons that my car is a compact hybrid SUV, not a Prius. Well, and the Tesla is more than my car by a large sum. I'd love to own it, love to drive it, and oh, how Charles would love both, but not this year (or any other, likely). If I can get something like the Volt in a form factor that I could use, I'd be up for it.

    Organ donors save lives! A donor's kidney gave me my life back on 02/18/11; he lives on in me. Please talk with your family about your wish to donate.

    Why are war casualty counts "American troops" and "others" but never "human beings"?

    by Kitsap River on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 11:51:56 PM PDT

    •  Tesla will be launching their econo car soon. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Troubadour, eXtina

      This was big step. They went from high-end to production of a Sedan way ahead of schedule.

      So far it's a success.

      But, their plans go further. As production ramps up they already have more economical and cheaper models in the pipeline.

      Yeah, you may not be able to transport a tree in one. But neither could most BMW's or a Ford Focus.

      But you could still hitch a trailer. xo

      Love will save you from the cold light of boring reality... But it won't save me -- SWANS

      by jethrock on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 12:04:58 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Dude, Model S is roomy as hell. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      jethrock

      There are two trunks, forward and back - the forward is called the "frunk" because there's no engine.  Seriously, you're not going to run out of room unless you collect Tribbles.

      "I'm going to rub your faces in things you try to avoid." - Muad'Dib

      by Troubadour on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 12:12:38 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Hey, give some love to Toyota/Lexus (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    factbased

    The Tesla S is here partly as a result of the Tesla/Toyota partnership which has brought a lot of manufacturing expertise, Tesla VP of Manufacturing Gilbert Passin, and the Fremont CA production plant from the Toyota side.

    In return, Toyota will be joint developing technology for it's future EVs with Tesla.

    This is a Win-Win-Win (customers) if there ever was one.

    What about my Daughter's future?

    by koNko on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 12:12:50 AM PDT

  •  Rec'd, but can't say I agree. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Rizzo, Geenius at Wrok

    Before asserting that your new electric car is environmentally friendly, find out the source of the electricity that you plan to charge the car with.  If your state gets most of its power from coal, then charging and driving a Tesla is a mere displacement of CO2 emission from your tailpipe to a smokestack, with a side of mountaintop removal and heavy-metal deposits.  If your state uses natural gas, then you get just as much CO2, less heavy-metal pollution, but more fracking.  

    "Politics should be the part-time profession of every citizen who would protect the rights and privileges of free people and who would preserve what is good and fruitful in our national heritage." -- Lucille Ball

    by Yamaneko2 on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 12:23:12 AM PDT

    •  My state in 2007: 90% "dirty" (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Geenius at Wrok

      Electricity generation in Indiana is mostly done by burning coal.  We have some nifty windfarms northwest of Lafayette, but they are currently dwarfed by the coal-burning generators that export "dirty" electricity to the East Coast.

      "Politics should be the part-time profession of every citizen who would protect the rights and privileges of free people and who would preserve what is good and fruitful in our national heritage." -- Lucille Ball

      by Yamaneko2 on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 12:38:56 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  An EV running from coal sourced power (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        AoT, zett

        Is still more environmentally benign because of the coversion efficiency of electric motors verses ICEs.

        You raise a good a legitimate question, but perhaps it should be re-phrased to ask "How much better?".

        What about my Daughter's future?

        by koNko on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 02:03:05 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Your claim is nonsensical (0+ / 0-)

      You maintain it's worse to use electricity than gasoline? How the heck do you think that gasoline gets in your car for you to spew its particulates all over?  Are you seriously claiming that burning coal at the source is worse than all the energy and pollution involved in oil exploration, drilling, pumping, transport, refinement, distribution of gasoline, and operating all those gas stations?  How much coal and gas is involved in all the electricity it took to produce that tankful of gasoline?  Did you also account for funding a ginormous military to keep the oil lanes open?  How about the pure evil of buying gasoline so the oil companies can use their profits to pay for deceptive outreach and "research" to put total bullshit like yours out in public forums?

      How much are you being paid to spew these lies?  And when are you going to admit that coal for electrical generation is on the decline because it isn't cost-effective?

      I suppose the solar panels on my roof that charge my car are more dangerous than keeping oil kingdoms flush.

      In capitalist America, bank robs you!

      by madhaus on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 12:45:10 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Generally speaking I've seen a few things (0+ / 0-)

        that do show that coal is actually worse than oil.  There are a lot of other things that play into it, as you point out, but attacking someone as a shill for pointing out the pollution that coal generated electricity creates is absurd.

        There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

        by AoT on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 07:52:38 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Not worse, just sometimes moderately better. (0+ / 0-)

        I am not being paid at all to "spew" these lines, and resent the implication.  

        In the case of my state, where about 90% of electricity comes from burning coal and natural gas, buying an electric car would do very little to reduce carbon emissions.  

        This said, I think the electric car is a great thing in theory and practice.  The motor magazines are in love with this Tesla model for its masterful design, operation and aesthetic.  In hydro-heavy states like those on the Pacific Coast, the benefit of an electric car is clear.

        "Politics should be the part-time profession of every citizen who would protect the rights and privileges of free people and who would preserve what is good and fruitful in our national heritage." -- Lucille Ball

        by Yamaneko2 on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 10:49:34 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Are you referring to the UCS study? (0+ / 0-)

          This one.

          I read through the whole thing and I can't figure out if they broke down every stage of oil production to gasoline in making this comparison, but they definitely did not count all the gasoline, diesel, and electricity consumed by the military in oil regions.

          In capitalist America, bank robs you!

          by madhaus on Sun Jun 24, 2012 at 12:01:19 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  No, the EIA reports (0+ / 0-)

            The Energy Information Agency tracks the source of electricity generation by state.  

            "Politics should be the part-time profession of every citizen who would protect the rights and privileges of free people and who would preserve what is good and fruitful in our national heritage." -- Lucille Ball

            by Yamaneko2 on Sun Jun 24, 2012 at 10:39:14 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  You are not understanding my question (0+ / 0-)

              In order to do a fair "wells to wheels" comparison of whether EVs contribute less, the same, or more than hybrid or conventional ICE cars, you must compare the pollution at ALL STAGES of production of the fuel.  For EVs, looking at how the electricity is produced, since there are no emissions from the vehicle itself.  For hybrids and ICEs, looking at what is expended in producing gasoline.  Wells to Wheels.

              And I read the USC study and it links to others but never defines what stages of oil production are included and what are not.  The USC study also looks into the source of energy (probably using the EIA stats) to compare EV "emissions" to gas-powered cars.  And, no surprise, California's got a fairly clean source of electrical generation.  Only in the most coal-munching states would a hybrid do better than an EV on emissions according to the report which... doesn't tell me what stages of oil production are included in making that assumption.

              In capitalist America, bank robs you!

              by madhaus on Mon Jun 25, 2012 at 06:37:36 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

  •  I own a Leaf (7+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    koNko, Lawrence, AoT, Kinak, javan, factbased, zett

    Another pure EV. Nowhere as sexy, built in Japan, but lists for $20k less than the cheapest Model S.

    But... Starting later this year, Leafs and their batteries will be built in Smyrna, TN.

    That said, I really want an S. And an X. But like most Californians, we don't have a basement, so the garage is full of stuff. And I am not keeping a car that nice on my driveway.

    But, hey, I love my Leaf and I bet the Tesla will be ten thousand kinds of awesome.

    In capitalist America, bank robs you!

    by madhaus on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 12:35:47 AM PDT

  •  a friend of mine owns one of the earlier (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    koNko, Lawrence, Kinak, zett

    $100k+ models, and his wife is going to be getting this one I think.

    "Okay, until next time. Keep sending me your questions, and I will make fun of you... I mean, answer them." - Strong Bad

    by AaronInSanDiego on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 01:34:14 AM PDT

  •  I'd buy one immediately if I could afford it and (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    zett

    afford a solar charging system to go with it.

    Great car, and definitely far better than anything any of the "high-end" manufacturers have on offer.  I think we can expect even greater things from Tesla in the future.

    Tipped and recced.

    "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

    by Lawrence on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 02:49:16 AM PDT

  •  How many Families can (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    eXtina, AoT

    live in one?

  •  Wow only 50k? (0+ / 0-)

    I thought it was going to be closer to 80k. Trust me, I want my next car to be that or better. I only bought a VW Jetta Sportwagen TDI because it was the most efficient for my 155 mile weekend commute (I've gotten up to 45 mpg). Gonna read up on that Model S now.

    "You don't have the right facts!"~My Tea Party Neighbor

    by Therapy on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 04:27:51 AM PDT

  •  efficient cars (0+ / 0-)

    Actually conventional gasoline cars are getting more and more efficient with innovation....plus they are much cheaper.
    My impression that the boring old gasoline car could be significantly improved and be the way of the future.

    Obama 2012...going to win it with our support!!!

    by mattinjersey on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 04:55:39 AM PDT

  •  building a new car burns more carbon than the (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    NYFM, AoT

    car will use in it's lifetime.    The obligation is to use more public transport, walk and bike.

    Macca's Meatless Monday

    by VL Baker on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 05:13:24 AM PDT

  •  Car for idiots (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    AoT, peregrinus

    who like polluting.

    We need to stop with the conspicuous consumption. I can't think of a more perfect example of how rich environmentalists are some of the most polluting creatures on the face of the earth. How about a photo safari to Africa perhaps?

    The theory that nature is permanently in balance has been largely discredited

    by ban nock on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 05:26:07 AM PDT

  •  It's still a car. (7+ / 0-)

    In other words, a machine for carrying around people and things much smaller than itself at accelerated speeds, which has to propel itself along with its passengers and cargo. Which means that no matter how efficient the engine or clean the energy source, you're still having to expend the joules to move an extra 2 tons of mass. That's a lot of joules. And because of the speed that a car affords, you're moving that mass greater and greater distances.

    My physics is rusty, but I'm pretty sure that the difference in energy expenditure between moving 100 kilograms of human 3 kilometers and moving 1,100 kilograms of human-plus-machine 15 kilometers is substantial.

    The Tesla is an incremental improvement being sold as a revolution. The real path to the future isn't in creating a glorious new industry to enable us to consume unnecessarily huge amounts of energy in a sexier steel carapace. It's in redeveloping our urban areas to make them more compact, so that the majority of trips are short enough to make travel by foot and bike practical, and in diverting the longer trips to mass transit systems.

    "The great lie of democracy, its essential paradox, is that democracy is the first to be sacrificed when its security is at risk. Every state is totalitarian at heart; there are no ends to the cruelty it will go to to protect itself." -- Ian McDonald

    by Geenius at Wrok on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 05:49:16 AM PDT

    •  Thanks for your excellent input (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Geenius at Wrok, eXtina, AoT, NYFM

      "It's still a car," it still needs ever increasing highways and roads. Show me some high-speed rail cars and I'll be impressed.

      "an incremental improvement being sold as a revolution." The real revolution is that 18-34 year olds are buying more bikes than cars. They are not paying attention to any auto sales pitches.

      ❧To thine ownself be true

      by Agathena on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 06:45:09 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Maybe (0+ / 0-)

    if my Redneck Retirement Fund matures.

    Are you on the Wreck List? Horde on Garrosh.

    by Moody Loner on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 05:52:21 AM PDT

  •  That is a nice looking car. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Kinak

    I don't like the aesthetics of most modern cars (for the most part I think car design went off a cliff after 1970), but that is just sexy.

    Someday when I am not an impoverished graduate student perhaps I will get one.

    Hwær cwom mearg? Hwær cwom mago? Hwær cwom maþþumgyfa? Hwær cwom symbla gesetu? Hwær sindon seledreamas?
    Eala beorht bune! Eala byrnwiga! Eala þeodnes þrym!

    by Alea iacta est on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 06:14:21 AM PDT

  •  Got Me Some Tesla Stock (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    zett

    And yearn for a Roadster (not THAT much stock). The Model S is not for me, however, nor is the upcoming mini-SUV. However, over at the factory in Fremont, CA, Tesla is also gearing up to stick the same drive trains into Toyota vehicles, and eventually into a Tacoma pick-up. When that happens, I will finally give up my 4WD manual transmission.

  •  Sorry. (0+ / 0-)

    I'm an upper middle class person, and I'll stick with my Prius and my motorcycle.

    We have just enough religion to make us hate, but not enough to make us love one another. -- Jonathan Swift

    by raptavio on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 07:48:12 AM PDT

  •  So purdy! (0+ / 0-)

    and it's good for you, too.

    Wish I could afford any new car - I would certainly by a hybrid or electric at this point.

    Still trying to think of something thought-provoking or hilarious for this space.

    by LuLu on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 08:04:57 AM PDT

  •  Just as soon as the wheels fall off my Prius. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    zett, AoT

    Bought her in late 2009, one of the first Third Gens on the road, so I can't really justify getting rid of her just yet.  Of course, she's not with me now; she's being cared for by my parents while I'm off on yet another tour of duty in Japan as part of my plot to seduce them away from what they usually drive, which tends to be needlessly large and inefficient.  Here in the land of the rising sun, I need naught but feet, a bicycle and the fantastic trains to get around.

    I did lament a bit when I bought a Japanese-made hybrid, seeing that America had dropped the ball so badly on electric cars.  I would have rather bought whatever the EV-1 would have grown into by its 2010 run.  I'd just returned from a three-year stint in Europe and had rather hoped that the Volt, at least, would be available.  No luck.  But I do love my car, and as I also prefer to bike whenever possible and am about 95% vegetarian, let no man say I am shirking.

    The new Tesla is a sexy beast, though.  :-)

  •  Tesla S is amazing, path-breaking technology (0+ / 0-)

    but you're delusional if you think it will, by itself, become a category-leader.

    The vast majority of Americans live and work in circumstances that require vehicles, and the nature of their lives means that they're regularly driving several hours to get where they're going. At highway speeds, 130 miles isn't much of a trip, yet that's the stated battery range limit—at 55 mph—of the base model listed at over $49K. How prevalent are battery charging stations on state highways across the US? If you point out that a large percentage of trips driven by average Americans is much shorter than 130 miles, you'd also have to acknowledge that a large share of those trips are driven by people needing more room than the Tesla has—it's not a minivan, which millions of Americans have bought not because they're sexy or mechanically wonderful but because they have a significantly larger amount of cargo space than sedans. If somebody simply needs a small sedan to zip around back and forth in the city, a very small number of people are going to shell out $50K for a car with a limited range. For better or worse, Americans like to have vehicles that can, if needed or desired, take them across the state or across the country with no concern about recharging.

    There's no doubt that the technologies developed by Tesla will continue to improve, but until its batteries can be developed with longer ranges at prices that average, middle-class Americans can afford, Tesla vehicles will remain an exotic niche market. You can sneer at other electrics or hybrids all you want, but your attempt to browbeat people into shelling out the dough for a Tesla is rather pathetic. If I were a Tesla marketing exec and saw your post, I'd contact you privately and tell you to shut the hell up.

  •  Thanks for the info (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    AoT

    Beautiful car.

    Way too expensive though...

    EV's will not become mainstream (which will allow the price to become realistic) until a simple INEXPENSIVE version is produced.  All these pricey EV's (Volt, Leaf, and all the rest) are out of range for most households especially when most people (wrongly) feel that if they have an EV the also need a gas car for the longer trips.  The over priced EV is why it died two decades ago, don't see things working out differently this time around with only expensive models available.

    I have a 1982 Jet Electra that is 100% electric (charge from my solar panels) that has about a 40 mile range.  I have less than 10K invested in it, have had it for five years and have put over 20K miles on it.  It looks like shit but it actually saves me money.  If you run the numbers, these expensive EV's really don't save any money due to the over price.  Because they don't save any money the only ones who will buy them are good hearted folks that are willing to spend extra to help the environment.  Unfortunately, not enough of these people around to keep an EV line alive.

    Wish it was different, but until someone builds a simple bare bones EV that average people can afford, EV's will remain a botique niche car that only super wealthy or super environmentally committed people will own.

    •  Dude, you gotta start somewhere. (0+ / 0-)

      The LEAF and "i" designs can certainly be mass market cars, but first enough have to sold to lower the cost of manufacture. Besides, at $30 a month to run (solar goes in soon), I can make a pretty good case on the economics of my LEAF against other similarly sized cars.

      "Nothing happens unless first a dream. " ~ Carl Sandburg

      by davewill on Mon Jun 25, 2012 at 05:30:05 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I want one and I want it now! eom (0+ / 0-)

    Please read and enjoy my novella, Tulum, available in soft cover and eBook formats.

    by davidseth on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 09:16:22 AM PDT

  •  If only. (0+ / 0-)

    My car is paid off and it would be a mistake to buy another car, but I do dream about owning a Leaf.

    Every time I fill my tank I feel guilty and hypocritical.

    But I don't have a garage so any infrastructure for recharging would either have to be outside or require I build a shelter for it.  I'd also have to get a curb cut so I could pull my car onto my property.

    And I have to go further into debt.

    I still think about it.  A cute little ladybug of a car, because it's green and clean.

    So that being beyond my means, I can't come close to this one.  But it is about 50% of the cost of previous Tesla models, isn't it?  Or 33%?

    So maybe the next model will actually be affordable.  Maybe if enough well-to-do liberals go for it, the price will continue to fall.

    If I buy another car, it will likely be the last car I buy, so I'd like it to be as earth-friendly as possible.  And this is a beautiful car.  And I'm not a complete douchebag . . .

    Why is it that a 3% tax increase for the wealthy is considered "socialism" and an 8% wage cut for the middle class is "doing your part"? MartyM

    by delphine on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 09:44:05 AM PDT

  •  I also find the car exciting but sheesh (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Geenius at Wrok

    take a cold shower or something OK?  

    ;-)

    If I have that much money to spend soon, I'll be looking at other options, thank you.

    There is still public transportation and the many benefits it brings.  I saw some numbers about a traditional diesel bus 80% full coming in at an equivalent of 275 mpg (per passenger).

    Or if I find $50k - 80k under a rock somewhere I might buy a Prius and donate some extra funds to environmental organizations.

    I understand that for the model S the first 1,000 models off the line are going to be filled with extras and so will price at $95,000.  The battery upgrade that allows for a range of 265 miles will give the vehicle a beginning price of $77,000.  What actually gets delivered to the dealers may be much more expensive than the base model.

    I'm not liberal. I'm actually just anti-evil, OK? - Elon James White

    by Satya1 on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 09:45:01 AM PDT

  •  Very pretty car. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Geenius at Wrok, AoT

    And very nice to see that Americans can once again design and build a beautiful vehicle. After the Studebaker, I figured we would never see a handsome American car again.

    I won't be buying one though. I have switched almost completely over to my electrically assisted bicycle. My Honda Civic - dented and scratched from parking on a San Francisco street - gets driven perhaps once a week. Now that's mileage!

    The universe may have a meaning and a purpose, but it may just specifically not include you.

    by Anne Elk on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 09:51:07 AM PDT

  •  I still like (0+ / 0-)

    my 65 GTO.   Hauls ass, sounds great.

  •  Fuck all. These are gorgeous eom. (0+ / 0-)

    Kathleen Sebelius 2016

    by pvlb on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 01:54:40 PM PDT

  •  Best line in this diary (0+ / 0-)
    Lexus, Mercedes, BWM, Audi...these cars are no longer on the menu if you are not a complete douchebag.
    The only people I know who drive a beemer ARE douchebags!

    Never underestimate stupid. Stupid is how reTHUGlicans win!

    by Mannie on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 03:15:36 PM PDT

  •  Lots of people are missing the point (0+ / 0-)

    The price is expensive but you're not looking at the whole picture.  It's an investment which requires a large up front cost but consider this

    -You will NEVER pay for gas again.  If you drive the car 150,000 miles and your car now typically gets 25 mpg and you pay $3.50 per gallon that means you will save $21,000 minus whatever you'll have to pay to charge it, which will be a fraction of the cost.

    -You will NEVER have to get an oil change.  If you're changing your oil every 3,000 miles that means $1,500 more in your pocket.  

    -No Tunes ups.  EVER.  Some periodic re calibrations where the tech people from Tesla come to your home but you won't have to do an expensive tune up every 15,000 miles.  

    -No Spark plus to replace.  No timing belts or fan belts or ANY belts to replace.  No mufflers or exhaust systems to repair or replace.  No Catalytic converters.  No Alternators.  No transmissions to fail.  NONE of the moving parts in the traditional cars other than steering and braking.  

    When you add it all up, If you buy a traditional car for $25,000 and you have it for 150,000 miles, that car will cost you (assuming it gets 25 mpg) well over $50,000 during the time you own it.  

    The Tesla will cost you $50,000 to own it and very little after that.  

    In the end you're paying about the same for both and with one you're polluting the fuck out of the planet.

    This is your world These are your people You can live for yourself today Or help build tomorrow for everyone -8.75, -8.00

    by DisNoir36 on Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 07:48:46 PM PDT

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