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Toyota Rav 4 electric web site
http://www.toyota.com/...

RAV4 EV – Coming Late Summer

It lets you put lots of cargo in the back. And it lets you put gas stations in the rearview mirror — permanently. It's the RAV4 EV — the electric version of Toyota's phenomenally popular SUV. And it's coming your way soon. Now you can have total versatility, totally emission-free.

    Real-world driving range of approximately 100 miles (41.8-kWh Lithium-ion battery)
    Impressive dynamic performance: 0-60 mph acceleration in 7.0 seconds [1]; lower center of gravity for impressive handling
    Lowest drag coefficient of any SUV in the world [2]
    Size/utility of a small SUV – no cargo space lost vs. RAV4 (73.0 cu. ft.) [3]

Toyota Rav 4 electric wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/...

http://blogs.cars.com/...

Toyota partnered with Tesla on the 2013 RAV4 EV; it paid the electric car company approximately $100 million to supply the RAV4 EV's powertrain, including the battery, motor, gearbox and power electronics.

The RAV4 EV will be available in front-wheel drive only and use an electric powertrain with a maximum output of 154 horsepower. It will offer drivers two modes: In Sport mode, RAV4 EV will do zero to 60 mph in 7 seconds and have a max speed of 100 mph. In Normal mode, those numbers drop to 8.6 seconds and 85 mph, respectively.

http://pressroom.toyota.com/...

LOS ANGELES (May 7, 2012) -- Toyota Motor Sales, U.S.A., Inc. today revealed the highly anticipated all-new Toyota RAV4 EV at the 26th annual Electric Vehicle Symposium in Los Angeles. This all-electric SUV has an expected driving range rating of approximately 100 miles and charging time of approximately six hours on a 240V/40A charger. The RAV4 EV’s driving performance, dynamics and cargo capacity are equal to or exceed the gas powered RAV4 V6. Arriving fully-equipped with an MSRP of $49,800 the RAV4 EV doesn’t compromise on performance, comfort or versatility.
http://www.caranddriver.com/...
Toyota has revealed its second all-electric RAV4 SUV, and it is the result of a partnership between the Japanese automaker and Tesla Motors. The original electrified RAV4 was introduced in California in 1997 for fleets, and a small number eventually made their way to customers in 2003.

Poll

Rav 4 ev

55%19 votes
26%9 votes
2%1 votes
8%3 votes

| 34 votes | Vote | Results

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Comment Preferences

  •  Rav 4 ev jar (10+ / 0-)

    "Drop the name-calling." Meteor Blades 2/4/11

    by indycam on Sun Jul 08, 2012 at 08:55:33 AM PDT

  •  The problem with these cars and SUVs (9+ / 0-)

    ...is that the internal combustion engine continues to improve and has gotten much cleaner and more efficient. I'm all for full electric, but until the total costs of ownership comes down, it's a hard sell. For example, last year we purchased a new 2012 Ford Focus 5-door for under $19,000. My wife gets 34+ MPG combined average. The all electric version of that car will cost more than twice that amount. Hard to make up the $20,000 + cost difference over the life of the car even if electric power is only about 1/3 the costs of gasoline.

    The issue remains the batteries.

    Years ago I advocated for the government to step in and call for standardization of the basic building block cells used to make up electric vehicle's battery packs. Similar to the standard A, C, and D cell batteries, a "V" cell (actually a self-contained module made up of battery cells, charging and monitoring circruitry) would be spec'd with a standardized physical size, voltage output, and connector / data port.

    Instead of all of the electric car makers inventing their own proprietary battery packs, battery manufactures could get into the game. Competition improves the breed. Imagine a world where there are different "V" cells on the market, all interchangeable. replacement  "V" cells from Ever-ready with 2X the capacity could be dropped into ANY electric car's battery pack regardless of manufacturer or shape/design since the "V" cell is standardized and is only a building-block component of the car's entire pack. With a standard design, battery makers would have the ENTIRE market to sell to, again fostering competition. With charging and standard data ports, newer faster-charging battery cells, or higher capacity cells would be able still be useable in older gen electric cars with the car's electronics adapting to the new cells since they would be able to 'talk' to them via a standard data connection.

    Oh well, until that day comes, we wind up with every car maker delivering electric cars with proprietary battery packs that -might- last 10 years.. .then you're our another $5K to $10K perhaps to replace them.

    THATs why it just isn't economical to go full electric.. not yet. IF the RAV 4, Focus, or LEAF was maybe 10 to 20% higher over the life of the vehicle (including replacing the battery pack cost at 10 years) compared to their gas-engine twins, THEN I think we'd be onto something. Right now, it's double the costs at least, and that's hard to justify.

    Personally, I can't wait for Mazda's sky-active clean burning diesel to come to the US market... Maybe in a smaller pickup truck with towing ability AND 30+ mpg gas mileage.  Run it on bio-diesel and that's a real game changer.

    "The price of a memory is the memory of the sorrow it brings" Adam Durst/Counting Crows

    by zipn on Sun Jul 08, 2012 at 09:16:23 AM PDT

    •  Wasn't the reason they discontinued the (5+ / 0-)

      original electric cars is that they tended to last forever?

      “I freed a thousand slaves. I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves.” - Harriet Tubman

      by Publius2008 on Sun Jul 08, 2012 at 09:20:37 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yes and ... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        cassandracarolina, JeffW

        Billions are at stake in aftermarket sales. There's no fuel system, spark plugs, oil filters, air cleaner, carburetors, etc, that can go bad and need replacing. That adds up if you hang on to a gas-powered car for a long time. So you have to factor that into the overall cost of your purchase. But perhaps more importantly, auto parts stores and the industry surrounding them would be severely hurt if the EV ever catches on in a big way. In fact, our consumption economy depends on stuff breaking down. The internal combustion engine is perfect for that model. EVs don't do that reliably enough for our consumer economy. You replace the batteries, brakes and tires and the thing theoretically could last forever. There just not as much to wear out. This is probably the biggest reason there is such resistance to EVs.

        •  I don't know... (0+ / 0-)

          Most of the stuff retailed at a modern auto parts store has very little to do with the engine (other than the racks of oils) - mostly it's cosmetic, electric and cleaners. - I think auto parts will do just fine in an all-electric future. Like you said, the cars will still need brakes, AC parts, cooling parts (water-cooled batteries)
          .. .now if they only sold "v" cells :)

          "The price of a memory is the memory of the sorrow it brings" Adam Durst/Counting Crows

          by zipn on Sun Jul 08, 2012 at 10:51:42 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  In terms of aftermarket I think mfrs need (0+ / 0-)

          to think about add-ons like kayak/bike racks, adding a BOSE sound system or such.  

          If folks bought a new EV and then over time added the perks, these could add up.

          I fall down, I get up, I keep dancing.

          by DamselleFly on Sun Jul 08, 2012 at 02:12:11 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  No, No, No (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Deward Hastings

          Why does it have to always be a conspiracy that thwarts the EV?  Auto parts dealers cannot do anything to stop the electric vehicle from gaining marketshare in this country.  The problems are Batteries, Batteries and Batteries.

          This only goes 100 miles (batteries).  For most people, this is unacceptable.  IF we ONLY intend to drive a vehicle less than 100 miles per day, then maybe we can buy it. Everyone eventually intends to drive a car more than 100 miles in a day. So then we need a second vehicle that is gas powered to do that.  So the electric vehicle is largely superfluous.  

          So the only reason to buy the RAV-4 EV would be as a commuter vehicle to save money.  But it doesn't (yet) because the BATTERIES are very expensive and the added cost is NOT offset by the reduced cost of energy to drive to work every day.

          The Republicans are begging for more rope. Give it to them!!!

          by nuketeacher on Sun Jul 08, 2012 at 03:14:00 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  100 miles a leg with recharging stations (0+ / 0-)

            less than 100 miles apart ...

            "Drop the name-calling." Meteor Blades 2/4/11

            by indycam on Sun Jul 08, 2012 at 06:05:56 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  rent a car (0+ / 0-)

            less than 30 a day often, clean, done.
            once, twice a year, and basically ready to go...if near any population center.
              Uhaul van and pu truck 19 per day plus mileage, worked out for me about 35 per day.

            rented for a week for less than the registration.

            haven't had a safe enough trustworthy enough car/truck for 30 years, rentals always good enough, better even.

            last trip I was doing 110 in someone else's car and seeing Instant Mileage figure of 99mpg...ok, downhill on an empty freeway...and then was passed by a 1 ton dualie pu that is just waiting to tow that boat once a year. maybe.

            and the rental and bus trip to pick up the rental car took less time than if I'd gone to the oil change place for my 250,000 mile truck. And it would still be a 250,000 mile truck with a suspect head gasket.....barely safe for local traffic, no airbags etc vs a new car w/air bags, great mileage, radio, phone, clean, new tires...

            From those who live like leeches on the people's lives, We must take back our land again, America!...Langston Hughes

            by KenBee on Sun Jul 08, 2012 at 09:16:31 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  No that is not why older electric cars (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Deward Hastings

        are no longer being made .

        "Drop the name-calling." Meteor Blades 2/4/11

        by indycam on Sun Jul 08, 2012 at 10:24:28 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  The price is going to come down over the next 10 (3+ / 0-)

      years or so along with some sort of standardization of battery packs.  Hopefully by the time these early EVs need a battery replacement the price should be dramatically lower for a replacement battery.

      BTW there have been Electric Rav 4s in California for almost 15 years or so and they are still on the road today.

      Right man, right job and right time

      by Ianb007 on Sun Jul 08, 2012 at 10:12:57 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Enforced standardization of batteries (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ItsSimpleSimon

      is a bad idea . Tying the hands of the designers / engineers is going to slow down not speed up the needed advances . Locking in yesterdays design when so many are doing so much to improve the design ...

      THATs why it just isn't economical to go full electric.. not yet.
      It can be economical now , the payback period can be shorter than the life time of the vehicle . Please don't make blanket statements like this when it is not so simple .
      Lower Cost of Ownership
      Smith vehicles are designed to offer a lower total cost of ownership versus conventional diesel trucks.

      Smith trucks cost significantly less to operate and less to maintain than traditional diesel vehicles. Cumulative energy savings plus lower maintenance and service requirements can deliver tangible bottom-line benefits for fleet operators.


      http://www.plugincars.com/...
      After record sales of hybrids and EVs in March, The New York Times revisits the subject today—and comes to the conclusion that buyers of a $28,421 Nissan LEAF will take 8.7 years to “break even” compared to $18,640 Nissan Versa. The calculation is based on $3.85 a gallon gas, but that even at $5 a gallon, it would take six years before hitting break-even.

      "Drop the name-calling." Meteor Blades 2/4/11

      by indycam on Sun Jul 08, 2012 at 10:18:31 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Did you read what I posted? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        JeffW, Kestrel228

        I didn't suggest standardization of the battery pack, just the building-block cells. The idea is that the vehicle manufacturer gets to design any size and capacity pack they want to meet the car's dynamics. It's the building block of the entire pack that I suggest they standardize on.. the CELLs... and they only need to standardize on the packaging and connections, not the chemical makeup. Just like you can go out an get a "AA" battery that is conventional, ni-cad, or metal. The packaging and the voltage are all the same. Do you really think Chevy is going to invest $$$$$$$$ in an upgrade battery pack for the Volt when there's so few in the market that they can sell to?

        The idea here is to increase the available market for replacement batteries beyond a single vehicle. If ALL electric vehicles were a potential market for a single size replacement cell, than I have got to believe that the market would respond with innovative and cost effective products. It's all about the size of the customer base. and NOT tying the hands of the designers... in fact, the idea is to get MORE innovation and design in place to accelerate the development of better battery technology. That needs to come from the battery chemists, not the car makers.

        Regarding economics, did you take into account the projected costs of the replacement battery pack? Add $5,000 to $10,000 to the cost of the vehicle to your lifetime costs. I'll admit that's just a projection, but from what I read, seems reasonable, and given that modern internal combustion cars easily exceed 200K miles now and 20+ years (without a corresponding 20% drop in performance) I say it's only fair to compare the costs of the battery pack. - even with figuring in maintenance on the internal engine (tune-ups, oil changes, etc).

        Any total costs of ownership calculations at this point in time are subject to debate given the unknowns on the costs of gas, electricity billing rates (both consumption and demand), maintenance costs, battery replacement costs, and labor costs.. but I really think 8.5 years is pay back overly optimistic. - they're also taking into account a LOT of government subsidies in their calculation. The list on a LEAF starts at $35,200... and again, I don't think they're looking at the costs to replace the battery pack (material and labor).

        Don't get me wrong.. I WANT to believe! I want a leaf! (well really I want a Tesla roadster) - but I am a realist. The cost for the Rav-4, Leaf, etc, and other all-electric cars needs to come down say 25% or so before they become economically viable.

        Finally, I acknowledge that a new car purchase is mostly an emotional purchase. If was strictly economics, we'd never buy a new car but instead would purchase used cars at a much much lower costs of ownership. People buy new cars because they want to... and if you want to buy electric, please do. I want to too, but I don't make enough money to justify the extra expense. -

        "The price of a memory is the memory of the sorrow it brings" Adam Durst/Counting Crows

        by zipn on Sun Jul 08, 2012 at 10:40:18 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  If you want to lock in battery design (0+ / 0-)

          lets lock in battery design from the 1920s
          and see how well that works for today ?
          Standards are an impediment .
          I've seen it all before and I reject any calls for standardization of any battery in any way shape or form .
          Telling a designer or engineer that they may not do something new and improved because it does not meet the old standards is a very negative thing when everything is early years yet .
          If you have a brilliant idea today that is nothing like what is in the battery standard specs of yesterday ...
          If you want to build and sell a battery that is nothing like and completely incompatible with every other battery system in the world , I say I will not stand in your way .

          Quick Payback
          Energy Savings
          As diesel and gasoline prices continue to climb, the fuel savings for electric trucks will become even more attractive. With the Motiv ePCS, total cost of ownership is approximately 50% less than a diesel powertrain over an eight-year period. For a medium size class 4 (~15,000 lb) truck driving about 100 miles/day, savings over this 8 year period could be over $50,000. The operating costs of electric are significantly lower than diesel - at today’s prices the cost of electric per mile is about 1/6th the cost of diesel.

          Also, battery prices are coming down! If you are not tied into an outdated battery system, you can upgrade your vehicles in the future and pay even less for batteries. The US Department of Energy expects battery costs to be $300/kWh in 2014. Even at $500/kWh, the Motiv ePCS can have a 3-year payback.

          Its all happening now .
          Electric vehicles and charging stations are happening now .

          "Drop the name-calling." Meteor Blades 2/4/11

          by indycam on Sun Jul 08, 2012 at 11:16:25 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  One more try... (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            JeffW, Kestrel228

            I am just advocating the packaging and the voltage. Not the chemistry.

            Think AA battery. That's a standard.. and by your logic, it would have been better if there was NO standard size battery.. No A, AA, AAA, C, D cell.

            How would that work out for you?

            I contend that it BECAUSE there's a standard package and spec for the voltage companies like Duracell and Ever-ready compete for a piece of the replacement battery market.. making AFFORDABLE and INNOVATIVE technologies like ni-cad and lithium batteries possible.

            ... but if you really think that the best way to foster innovation and competition is by having proprietary systems  and designs in place that's fine, but I don't know of any examples in the market where that ever worked out.  What if the all electric Rav-4 could only work with special proprietary RAV-4 tires, and Toyota was the only place you could get them? What about RAV-4 only windshield washer fluid? RAV-4 brake pads available only from Toyota? If every user replaceable or serviceable part in that car was proprietary to Toyota do you think that would be a good thing?

            "The price of a memory is the memory of the sorrow it brings" Adam Durst/Counting Crows

            by zipn on Sun Jul 08, 2012 at 11:30:16 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  When did the AA battery come on the market ? (0+ / 0-)
              Think AA battery. That's a standard.. and by your logic, it would have been better if there was NO standard size battery.. No A, AA, AAA, C, D cell.
              What would have happened if the standards were written before the AA battery came out and the standards did not allow the AA battery ?

              Do you see the problem yet ?

              Do you have any idea how many battery sizes and shapes are already being made ? From the smallest to the largest ?
              Want to take a guess ?

              Do you know about the batteries in pace makers ?
              Should they be made to a standard size and shape like an AA or AAA ? Or should the designers / engineers of pacemakers be allowed to design the size shape etc etc etc to their own best ?

              How about a battery for a satellite or a submarine ?

               

              "Drop the name-calling." Meteor Blades 2/4/11

              by indycam on Sun Jul 08, 2012 at 12:18:48 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  Its funny you should say this (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      grover
      Instead of all of the electric car makers inventing their own proprietary battery packs, battery manufactures could get into the game.
      in a diary about Toyota using Tesla's batteries .

      "Drop the name-calling." Meteor Blades 2/4/11

      by indycam on Sun Jul 08, 2012 at 10:28:57 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  As far as I know... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Kestrel228

        ...the vehicle battery packs are NOT interchangeable from model to model, or manufacturer to manufacturer. The technology may be similar (1,500 laptop batteries?) in the Rav-4 and the Tesla-S, but each vehicle has a unique proprietary battery pack.

        And the LEAF is different
        And the VOLT is different
        And the FOCUS EV is different
        And the Mitsubishi is different.

        You won't see battery manufacturers racing to develop high-tech replacment batteries for any of these vehicles as each one only has a small segment of the market and each has a unique battery pack.

        I hope Tesla survives (the jury is still out) - but if they don't; good luck finding replacement battery packs 10 - 20 years from now.

        "The price of a memory is the memory of the sorrow it brings" Adam Durst/Counting Crows

        by zipn on Sun Jul 08, 2012 at 10:47:18 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Have you seen the battery pack from the (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          zipn

          1st Rav 4 ?

          Have you seen what Motiv is doing re batteries and there replacement ?
          http://www.motivps.com/...

          Plug-and-Play Components
          Motiv allows truck builders to use field-tested off-the-shelf batteries and motors that can be mixed-and-matched, enabling easier upgrades as battery costs decrease and technology improves. Batteries are typically packaged off-the-shelf from battery manufacturers as smaller packs. These 15 to 30 kWh off-the-shelf packs are the right size to allow a modular powertrain design with battery packs being added for longer ranges or heavier vehicles. Changing batteries or using different batteries on future trucks is a simple software re-configuration of the Motiv ePCSPlug-and-Play Components.

          Flexible Powertrain Control

          The Motiv ePCS allows builders to build to any fleet spec – different ranges, multiple weight EVs or power output. It also improves vehicle performance and economics. Battery packs can be spread out within the chassis for better weight distribution. The Motiv ePCS actively manages the electric chassis. For example, it can detect a battery pack that is running hot and throttle it down relative to other packs on the vehicle to extend its life.

          All the "problems" you bring up have been thought about and solved already . I know things are changing quickly ...

          "Drop the name-calling." Meteor Blades 2/4/11

          by indycam on Sun Jul 08, 2012 at 10:58:27 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  COOL! (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Kestrel228

            I wouldn't say that the problem is corrected, but the video shows how modular cells would be a move in the right direction.

            Unfortunately in the case on the video, I think the only reason the cells are interchangeable is because that's what was available at the time the first gen electric rav-4s were put together. - I don't think that's the case on the new RAV-4 batter pack.. for work on those I think it's back to the manufacturer for repair or replacement.

            ...so there's still no standardization for ALL electric vehicles and battery packs. Unfortunately, I think that would require government regulation to accomplish.

            Motiv ePCS is on the right track, but just because they sell modular OEM components to some car makers (no idea who is buying them) , it still doesn't open up the market to all and solve the problem. I don't even think Motiv PC makes the batteries.. they just package them. They are relying on the battery makers themselves to innovate.

            "The price of a memory is the memory of the sorrow it brings" Adam Durst/Counting Crows

            by zipn on Sun Jul 08, 2012 at 11:13:44 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  We are just going around and around (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              too many people

              you see problems , I see progress .
              You see how it will not work and want to regulate
              I see it as working and I don't want to regulate .

              "Drop the name-calling." Meteor Blades 2/4/11

              by indycam on Sun Jul 08, 2012 at 11:28:01 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I only want to get replacement (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                JeffW, Kestrel228

                plug-and-play battery cells for my future electric car at an Autozone in 2024.. You know, then ones from Die-Hard that offer 10x the capacity of the original 2014 Toyota cells.. the ones that simply plug into the cell holders in the battery pack (since they're all standard size and voltage). I want to replace them in my garage without going to the dealer, and I want to be able to swap out single cells when they go bad without having to buy a new battery pack.

                I want the choice.
                I want  competition and innovation.

                I don't want to have to go back to Toyota and purchase what ever they might have to sell me for what ever price they want to charge.

                I just get frustrated because I think we're both trying to get to the same place. I just think it really comes down to the chemists and physicists and material scientist working on the core battery cell technology.. not the auto manufacturers... and I think the standardization of the core CELL, with the corresponding open maket, is the best way to get there. It's all about the cell, not the entire battery pack.

                "The price of a memory is the memory of the sorrow it brings" Adam Durst/Counting Crows

                by zipn on Sun Jul 08, 2012 at 11:42:36 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  You don't have an electric car (0+ / 0-)

                  but you fear that the car you might buy will have battery replacement problems ?

                  I want to replace them in my garage without going to the dealer, and I want to be able to swap out single cells when they go bad without having to buy a new battery pack.
                  Then don't buy any car or truck that does not offer you that . When you go shopping for the car you want make sure it has those features .
                  You can buy an old rav 4 ev now that has a fixable battery pack .
                  If it really really matters to you so very much , go for the Motiv system and install it on any platform of your wish .
                  Then you can choose any available battery type .
                  If you want to run C cell batteries like the Buckeye Bullet 1
                  http://www.dailykos.com/...
                  go for it .

                  Do you know the story of Cadillac and the Dewar Trophy ?

                  "Drop the name-calling." Meteor Blades 2/4/11

                  by indycam on Sun Jul 08, 2012 at 11:58:44 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  I will only buy a car if the motor (0+ / 0-)

                  is replaceable with a state of the art motor in 10 years .
                  I want that motor to be replaceable by any other motor from any other manufacture . If I buy a toyota I want to be sure I can replace the motor with one from Porsche 10 years from now . Same size , shape , connectors etc etc etc  

                  "Drop the name-calling." Meteor Blades 2/4/11

                  by indycam on Sun Jul 08, 2012 at 06:09:42 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

    •  That's where you are wrong (0+ / 0-)
      I'm all for full electric, but until the total costs of ownership comes down, it's a hard sell. For example, last year we purchased a new 2012 Ford Focus 5-door for under $19,000. My wife gets 34+ MPG combined average. The all electric version of that car will cost more than twice that amount. Hard to make up the $20,000 + cost difference over the life of the car even if electric power is only about 1/3 the costs of gasoline.
      Actually it's not that hard.  

      First assume the battery pack lasts you 10 years.

      Second assume you drive 15,000 miles a year for 10 years or a total of $150,000 miles.  

      Third let's assume that gas prices will be a constant $3.50 a gallon for those 10 years.  

      In those 10 years your wife's car averaging 34/mpg will have consumed $15,441.17.

      Now add in an oil change every 3,000 miles at $30 a pop for $1,500.

      Now add in a full tune up every 15,000 miles at a couple of hundred each.  Add in new belts every 60,000 miles.  Maybe a new exhaust system or cat converter or maybe both.

      When all is said and you're done replacing all sorts of fluids and engine parts not present in EV vehicles your wife will have spent well over $20,000 IN ADDITION TO the under $19,000 she spent to buy it.  

      On the EV car other than some routine maintenance checks every so often (as well as tires and brakes and air filters which you'r wife will have to replace anyway) there is very little expense.  Even charging it is pennies on the dollar compared to what your wife will spend in getting her car to go.

      So this notion that it's twice the cost is simply wrong.  It's not.  In fact the costs end up being fairly close.  The only question is would you prefer to pay it up front or pay it throughout the 10 years.  

      Also note that if fuel prices go up in those 10 years or your wife drives more than an average of 15,000 miles a year the EV will be even cheaper in comparison.   I drive 25,000 miles in a car that gets 30 mpg.  I've had it for over 7 years now and have over 175,000 miles.  Just on gas alone I've spent over $20,400.  And I live in CT where gas prices haven't been below $3.50 for 5 years now so that estimate could well be closer to $25,000.  By the time I reach 10 years my expense on fuel alone will be well over $30,000-$35,000.  I originally paid close to $19,000 for my car brand new.  That's the price of a new Tesla Model S with a 40 kwh battery.  That's before adding in the extra costs of oil changes and so on.  After all that is factored in I could probably buy a nice Model S with an upgraded 60 kwh battery which gets a top range of 230 miles per charge.  The great thing is the prices of the Tesla's are only going down as there are more and more produced.  The Model S is the first mass produced car from Tesla.  Next year they will begin mass producing the Model X.  The year after that, just in time for me to buy a new car they will be mass producing a third car.  Each presumably more affordable than the prior one.  The Model S is a luxury Sedan.  The Model X is a Crossover.  The third one is supposed to be an affordable sedan.    

      This is your world These are your people You can live for yourself today Or help build tomorrow for everyone -8.75, -8.00

      by DisNoir36 on Sun Jul 08, 2012 at 04:55:14 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Wasn't the original electric car (0+ / 0-)

    a toyota rav 4?

    “I freed a thousand slaves. I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves.” - Harriet Tubman

    by Publius2008 on Sun Jul 08, 2012 at 09:18:54 AM PDT

    •  The Original ? (4+ / 0-)
      The Lohner-Porsche Mixte Hybrid was the first hybrid vehicle developed in 1901 by Ferdinand Porsche.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/...
      At the age of 18, Ferdinand Porsche boarded a train in North Bohemia, Austria-Hungary (now Czech Republic), and headed for Vienna and his first job with Jacob Lohner, at his Lohner-Werke. Despite having no formal engineering education, Porsche quickly drafted up plans for an ambitious project, harnessing electric power. The car boasted a completely friction free drivetrain, due to the hub-mounted electric motors which negated the use of gears or driveshafts. Each internal-pole electric motor was capable of 2.5 hp (1.9 kW) to 3.5 hp (2.6 kW) peaking to 7 hp (5.2 kW) for short bursts.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/...
      1890s to 1900s: Early history

      Before the pre-eminence of internal combustion engines, electric automobiles held many speed and distance records. Among the most notable of these records was the breaking of the 100 km/h (62 mph) speed barrier, by Camille Jenatzy on April 29, 1899 in his 'rocket-shaped' vehicle Jamais Contente, which reached a top speed of 105.88 km/h (65.79 mph). Before the 1920s, electric automobiles were competing with petroleum-fueled cars for urban use of a quality service car.[18]

      "Drop the name-calling." Meteor Blades 2/4/11

      by indycam on Sun Jul 08, 2012 at 09:48:47 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Does the rear door still open the wrong way? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        grover

        I have a Toyota.  A 91 Celica with 100,000 miles on it.

        Still waiting for Toyota to come up with a vehicle I like better than my trusty Celica.

        •  What is the wrong way ? (0+ / 0-)

          What way is the right way ?

          "Drop the name-calling." Meteor Blades 2/4/11

          by indycam on Sun Jul 08, 2012 at 10:21:42 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Heh. (0+ / 0-)

          That really bugged me when I test-drive one. We lived in WA. I wanted a door that protected me from the rain as I loaded my vehicle, or when we were camping. Sometimes the little things matter a lot.

          © grover


          So if you get hit by a bus tonight, would you be satisfied with how you spent today, your last day on earth? Live like tomorrow is never guaranteed, because it's not. -- Me.

          by grover on Sun Jul 08, 2012 at 12:36:40 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  and those early electric cars (0+ / 0-)

        suffered the same problems that we see today . . . limited range and limited battery life (heavy and expensive, too).  That's the primary reason that the generally more obnoxious (noisy, smelly, often unreliable) ICE cars replaced them at the time.  Fuel cost was another issue . . . electric power was not (and still isn't) all that cheap or efficient, especially when compared to the recently discovered "petroleum" oil.

        Fake Left, Drive Right . . . not my idea of a Democrat . . .

        by Deward Hastings on Sun Jul 08, 2012 at 10:55:51 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  For $50k, can't I at least get 200 miles? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Deward Hastings

    So I can get to the mountains and back.

    The RAV4 (the 4 stood for 4WD) being sold without 4WD seems a bit dishonest to me. I'dd be willing to buy it (the Prius doesnt fit dog crates) but range is a big issue, especially for an SUV.

    © grover


    So if you get hit by a bus tonight, would you be satisfied with how you spent today, your last day on earth? Live like tomorrow is never guaranteed, because it's not. -- Me.

    by grover on Sun Jul 08, 2012 at 12:51:27 PM PDT

    •  From Berkeley it wouldn't get you (0+ / 0-)

      to the beach and back (well, Ocean Beach in San Francisco, but not Santa Cruz or Point Reyes).  Where's the "sport" or "utility" in that?  And yes, good luck throwing your skis on top and even getting to Donner, let alone getting back.

      There might actually be a market for a $10-12k electric "town car" (second car) . . . something more substantial than a golf cart (or GEM car), but not pretending to be a "travel car" capable of actually going anywhere.  Something you could let the kids drive before they graduate from High School.  But until the electric car finds a niche that makes economic, environmental and practical sense (which the electric RAV4 doesn't) it's just going to be a "statement car" (and the "statement" is "I've got more money than sense" . . .).

      Fake Left, Drive Right . . . not my idea of a Democrat . . .

      by Deward Hastings on Sun Jul 08, 2012 at 04:03:17 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Sure you could . (0+ / 0-)

        You need to stop and fill the "tank" .
        Did you see the diary where the guys are driving around the world in an electric car ?
        http://www.electric-odyssey.com/...

        Driving from Tokyo to Fukuoka
        24/05/2012

        So that was true : In Japan you can recharge in less than 30 minutes nearly everywhere, thanks to the very dense quick charging station infrastructure.

        You can imagine the improvement that allowed us to travel in a quiet “normal” way, with some touristic detours without any risk regarding our planning. And crossing Japan will certainly be the easiest stage of our world tour. Driving a thermic car wouldn’t have been much more convenient!

        Do you never stop to fuel up ?

        I had a motorcycle , it had a small tank .
        Its range was not much more than 100 miles .
        Somehow I was able to go all day and all night on it .

        "Drop the name-calling." Meteor Blades 2/4/11

        by indycam on Sun Jul 08, 2012 at 06:24:41 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Yes, they're currently working on installing (0+ / 0-)

          charging stations up and down I5. I might  likely be able to drive to Washington-- where I go a lot -- in this vehicle. So it has appeal to me.  That's part of the reason that I'd like 4WD actually.

          But around western WA, there are charging stations everywhere, including many city hall parking lots. Drive right up, park in front, charge for free while the dogs sniff around on the grass.

          I haven't mapped out charging stations. But it's about 850 miles from here to Seattle. Between gas stops and potty breaks, I usually stop about 4-5 times anyhow. This could be totally doable for me.

          And the savings? Ya gotta be kidding. Mr Grover uses it to commute. We use it to drive to WA or to visit family in SoCal.
           We'd save a ton in fuel costs.

          And there's that whole environment thing...

          © grover


          So if you get hit by a bus tonight, would you be satisfied with how you spent today, your last day on earth? Live like tomorrow is never guaranteed, because it's not. -- Me.

          by grover on Sun Jul 08, 2012 at 06:55:51 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Do you have a charge point card ? (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            grover

            Have you looked at their map of charging stations ?

            http://www.chargepoint.net/

            http://www.chargepoint.net/...

            I called their 800 number and talked to a guy in Bangalore India , he put me on their list and sent me a charge pass card .
            The local charge points are letting me charge my batteries for free .
            Fuel is "free".
            Gasoline for 100 miles is a few dollars at the very least
            electricity for 100 miles is free .

            Earning the money for gas costs more time
            than the time costs for filling the batteries .  

            "Drop the name-calling." Meteor Blades 2/4/11

            by indycam on Sun Jul 08, 2012 at 07:19:41 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Well, it's not free. (0+ / 0-)

              We pay for it in taxes. And charging at home costs money (we already have the necessary breaker panel box).

              But I'm a hardcore environmentalist. If you ask me about myself upon meeting me at a party, "tree-hugger" is about the third thing I say after wife and dog owner.  

              If people like me don't buy these cars and offset the R&D costs, then what impetus do manufacturers have to make electric cars available for cheaper to the general public?

              I honestly can't afford $50k right now. I won't finance that much, and I have family obligations that require our resources.  But I have an account that I squirrel away money into. I pick up something I'd really like, say a DVD. And I put it back, because it's just more "stuff" and I've committed myself to not buying more stuff.

              Then I take that $15 and transfer into my squirreled away account.  Squirrels understand that you save for long enough, you'll have plenty of acorns for winter.

              So too will I get my electric car.

              :)

              © grover


              So if you get hit by a bus tonight, would you be satisfied with how you spent today, your last day on earth? Live like tomorrow is never guaranteed, because it's not. -- Me.

              by grover on Sun Jul 08, 2012 at 09:53:58 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  No, in fact, you couldn't. (0+ / 0-)

          There are no "electric fueling stations" at Pt Reyes National Seashore.  None reasonably close, either.  And if there were you'd have to stop for a couple hours each way for the re-charge . . . pretty much kills the "day at the beach".  And don't even think about changing your itinerary and looping up to Russian River on your return should the weather turn cold.  On the other end perhaps you could find one in Santa Cruz, though how long you'd spend looking for it and charging up is another question.  But if you go North on the coast will you find one in Davenport?  Or even Half Moon Bay?  And if you do how long will it take?  Is it really worth $40-50k to you to spend half your day-at-the-beach looking for and sitting in charging stations?

          There are lots of things you can do with a 100 mile range motorcycle . . . gas stations are common and it takes only minutes to fill the tank.

          Fake Left, Drive Right . . . not my idea of a Democrat . . .

          by Deward Hastings on Sun Jul 08, 2012 at 07:16:24 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  You are so sure it can't be . (0+ / 0-)

            Are you a sporting man ?
            You pay for the rental of the EV and I will drive it to Donner for some skiing , then I will drive it to Pt Reyes National Seashore , then I will drive it to Donner for some more skiing , then back to Santa Cruz .
            You are a sporting man are you not ?
            You are not going to back down from some silly little Englishman are you ?

            On the other end perhaps you could find one in Santa Cruz, though how long you'd spend looking for it and charging up is another question.  
            You can find more than one and you would spend no time looking for it .  

            I'm so sorry you are so very negative without reason .
            But hey , what ever floats your boat .

            "Drop the name-calling." Meteor Blades 2/4/11

            by indycam on Sun Jul 08, 2012 at 07:30:30 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  Guys, guys, guys (0+ / 0-)

    OK...I am not sure which of you are guys.

    But...80% of all decisions made on car purchases are made by the the woman of the house:

    http://www.autoguide.com/...

    Way back in the '80s I went out and bought my first Honda Accord based on consumer reports statements that it was the most reliable vehicle.  I neglected to confer with my husband first.  He was pretty upset because his family was big time union and had only purchased GM cars.  But the GM car that I drove left me dead-in-the-water in the high speed lane on 95/128 in Boston area with 2 kids in car seats, and I was not about to buy a car because I supported unions.  The safety of my kids was more important than my political support of unions (My FIL was steward of the glazers union in Boston, my BIL was in the pipe-fitters union, 3 SILS were teachers, and my hubby was a meat-cutter).  So I was most definitely going against the grain here.  But I did not care.  I wanted a SAFE AND RELIABLE vehicle for transporting my kids.  That was the bottom line.

    So one day my husband gets home and finds a "Jap" car in the driveway.  (That is what my in-laws called it [WWII era folks]).  It was a long time before my in-laws acknowledged my presence.  On the other hand, my husband was so impressed by my Accord that he went out and bought a Civic 6 months later.  And 30+ years later and I am still driving Honda as are 2 of my 3 kids.  My current vehicle is almost 15 years old and still running strong.  I hope it lasts long enough for me to buy a Honda EV (although that Tesla-S sure is sexy and beckoning to me).

    Batteries not withstanding...manufacturers need to take into consideration the FEMALE FACTOR and provide safe and reliable vehicles.

    I fall down, I get up, I keep dancing.

    by DamselleFly on Sun Jul 08, 2012 at 02:46:14 PM PDT

    •  PS (0+ / 0-)

      my 'other car' is a 1992 Club Car.  Yep I have an electric golf cart...which I drive all winter long in Maine.  Love it.  Very reliable.  In 10 years I have had to change one tire and I had to replace the batteries.  Other than that...I lub my cart.

      (I live on an island off the coast that does not allow gas powered vehicles).

      Cost?  About $5 per month.

      I fall down, I get up, I keep dancing.

      by DamselleFly on Sun Jul 08, 2012 at 02:51:37 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  EV cars are safer (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      DamselleFly

      Tesla's car for example has crumple zones in the front and rear which most cars cannot do because of the big engines in the front.  The battery pack provides the car with added protection, stability and support.  Plus there's airbags all over.  

      This is your world These are your people You can live for yourself today Or help build tomorrow for everyone -8.75, -8.00

      by DisNoir36 on Sun Jul 08, 2012 at 05:53:59 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  All new U.S. cars approved for the highway (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        DamselleFly

        have crumple zones in the front unless they are home built .

        The battery pack provides the car with added protection, stability and support.
        In some designs that might be true .

        "Drop the name-calling." Meteor Blades 2/4/11

        by indycam on Sun Jul 08, 2012 at 06:31:57 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  True. But (0+ / 0-)

          No engine in front allows for a better crumple zone.  

          As for the battery pack I was referring specifically to the Teslas

          This is your world These are your people You can live for yourself today Or help build tomorrow for everyone -8.75, -8.00

          by DisNoir36 on Mon Jul 09, 2012 at 11:23:34 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  How do you know that no engine up front = (0+ / 0-)

            a better crumple zone ?

            Having a large mass behind the passenger compartment
            isn't always the best in a front end collision .  That mass behind want to go forward .  

            "Drop the name-calling." Meteor Blades 2/4/11

            by indycam on Mon Jul 09, 2012 at 11:50:07 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I think we're talking past each other (0+ / 0-)

              The Tesla doesn't have a mass in the rear.  Or the front.  No large mass that wants to go anywhere.  The large mass is underneath and spread out.  If anything it reinforces the frame.  The front is the trunk and has a much more solid frame.  That way if you do get in a head on there is no engine block , just an empty space.  

              This is your world These are your people You can live for yourself today Or help build tomorrow for everyone -8.75, -8.00

              by DisNoir36 on Mon Jul 09, 2012 at 03:27:42 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Lotus Elise 1,931 lb (876 kg) (0+ / 0-)

                Tesla roadster 2,723 lb (1,235 kg)

                http://en.wikipedia.org/...

                Tesla will sell the Roadster until early 2012, when its supply of Lotus Elise gliders is expected to run out, as its contract with Lotus Cars for 2,500 gliders expired at the end of 2011
                http://www.google.com/...

                The tesla roadster picked up an extra 800ish lbs and placed it behind the passenger compartment .

                "Drop the name-calling." Meteor Blades 2/4/11

                by indycam on Mon Jul 09, 2012 at 06:35:45 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  The Roadster? (0+ / 0-)

                  Dude that's a limited edition sports car.  Not at all indicative of the car Tesla is mass producing.  The Model S and Model X are unique designs.  Not borrowed from another auto manufacturer or anything like that.  They designed those cars from the ground up.  Neither one has the battery pack in the rear.  Here's more info:

                  This is your world These are your people You can live for yourself today Or help build tomorrow for everyone -8.75, -8.00

                  by DisNoir36 on Mon Jul 09, 2012 at 08:04:43 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  What has been in production ? (0+ / 0-)

                    How many of what type have been produced so far ?
                    How many Roadsters ?
                    How many S ?
                    How many X ?

                    "Drop the name-calling." Meteor Blades 2/4/11

                    by indycam on Mon Jul 09, 2012 at 08:16:21 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  OK (0+ / 0-)
                    They designed those cars from the ground up.
                    So the platform is their own ? Do you really want to sell that ?

                    "Drop the name-calling." Meteor Blades 2/4/11

                    by indycam on Mon Jul 09, 2012 at 08:23:23 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I'm not selling it Tesla is. (0+ / 0-)

                      Just read their fucking website instead of being an insufferable asshole with me.

                      This is your world These are your people You can live for yourself today Or help build tomorrow for everyone -8.75, -8.00

                      by DisNoir36 on Mon Jul 09, 2012 at 08:43:19 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  You don't have anything so you lash out . (0+ / 0-)

                        Look to your own problems .

                        "Drop the name-calling." Meteor Blades 2/4/11

                        by indycam on Mon Jul 09, 2012 at 08:46:13 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  read the fucking website (0+ / 0-)

                          and stop being a goddamn dickhead.  Everything I said was factually based and it's all on the website along with tons more info.  

                          This is your world These are your people You can live for yourself today Or help build tomorrow for everyone -8.75, -8.00

                          by DisNoir36 on Mon Jul 09, 2012 at 08:51:00 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  "Look to your own problems ." (0+ / 0-)

                            You need to read more that just their website .
                            That might be the problem , you might just have been sold a story by one website .
                            The real story can't be found on just their website .

                            So please tell me where on their website do they explain the weight gain of 800ish lbs behind the seats ?

                            I've been to the Tesla factory .
                            Have you ?

                            "Drop the name-calling." Meteor Blades 2/4/11

                            by indycam on Mon Jul 09, 2012 at 08:57:40 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You're talking about the Roadster (0+ / 0-)

                            It's a limited edition vehicle that was not built for mass production.  There was only about 3000 made and they're sold out in North America.  I was only talking about the cars that are mass produced.  Namely the Model S and soon to be Model X.  THERE IS NO ADDITIONAL FUCKING WEIGHT BEHIND THE SEATS IN THOSE MASS PRODUCED MODELS!!!!!!!!!!!!!  In fact BOTH those models have additional seating in the rear.  

                            If you visited the factory you'd fucking know that, which means you're just being a very obtuse dick.

                            This is your world These are your people You can live for yourself today Or help build tomorrow for everyone -8.75, -8.00

                            by DisNoir36 on Mon Jul 09, 2012 at 09:02:44 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Model S (0+ / 0-)
                            MORE
                            SEATING
                            The rear facing child seat option provides seating for seven. Optimized for safety and equipped with 5-point seatbelts, the bucket seats provide a comfortable ride for children under the age of 10. When not in use, the jump seats fold completely flat.
                            Hmmm NO extra weight in the rear there.

                            This is your world These are your people You can live for yourself today Or help build tomorrow for everyone -8.75, -8.00

                            by DisNoir36 on Mon Jul 09, 2012 at 09:07:12 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Model X (0+ / 0-)
                            EASY SEATING
                            Third-row access is finally easy. Even with child seats installed, the second-row seats slide all the way forward. Open Falcon Wings let you stand all the way up as you get in and out. Kids no longer leap and tumble over the second row, and adults find the third-row seats as accessible as the passenger seat.
                            Yup, no extra weight there either.

                            Both cars have third row seating.  Kinda hard to do if there was an engine back there dontcha think?  Would you like me to provide photos of frame and motors as well?

                            This is your world These are your people You can live for yourself today Or help build tomorrow for everyone -8.75, -8.00

                            by DisNoir36 on Mon Jul 09, 2012 at 09:09:25 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You sure have a mouth on you (0+ / 0-)

                            to bad you don't have anything but their website behind you .

                            "Drop the name-calling." Meteor Blades 2/4/11

                            by indycam on Mon Jul 09, 2012 at 09:11:16 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Ok (0+ / 0-)
                            that are mass produced.
                            How many have they made ?

                            "Drop the name-calling." Meteor Blades 2/4/11

                            by indycam on Mon Jul 09, 2012 at 09:30:08 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Directly from Teslamotors.com (0+ / 0-)
                            SAFETY
                            MORE THAN
                            A POWER SOURCE
                            The battery is a rigid, high-
                            performance structure in its own right. But when married to the state-of-the-art body structure, Model S achieves even higher torsional rigidity and a lower center of gravity. The battery itself is designed for safety. Liquid-cooled, the battery maintains consistent temperatures
                            to prevent cells from overheating. In the event of a crash, the battery structure protects cells from impact and automatically disconnects the power supply. The battery not only protects its contents, but its position augments the overall strength of the passenger cabin.
                            ALUMINUM BODY STRUCTURE

                            STRONG, RIGID,
                            AND LIGHT
                            The Model S body is a state-of-the-art, aluminum-intensive design. Weight-saving benefits make aluminum a natural choice. Extrusions, stampings, and castings are expertly joined for rigidity and strength. A rigid and strong structure not only protects you and your passengers, but also contributes to overall control behind the wheel.

                            Unhindered by an internal combustion engine, the front of the car is optimized for occupant safety. Perfectly straight double-octagonal rails run along the bottom of the structure and are designed to absorb the energy of impact should one occur. High-strength steel is used in key areas to enhance occupant safety.

                            EIGHT AIRBAGS: Model S is equipped with airbags throughout to keep the most precious cargo safe.

                            RIGID OCCUPANT CELL: High-strength steel is combined with aluminum to augment safety.

                            NO ENGINE: The front crumple zone is optimized for safety in ways not possible in conventional cars.

                            There's your nothing.  Shove it up your ass and rotate.  I've been more than patient with you but you'd rather be a dick than investigate the link I provided you

                            This is your world These are your people You can live for yourself today Or help build tomorrow for everyone -8.75, -8.00

                            by DisNoir36 on Mon Jul 09, 2012 at 08:58:41 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Its to bad you are so you . (0+ / 0-)

                            You really don't have the knowledge base to understand what you are being sold

                            insufferable asshole
                            a goddamn dickhead.
                            Shove it up your ass and rotate.
                            Do you think this somehow makes you knowledgeable ?
                            Do you think this somehow wins ?
                            In reality it shows that you have no real knowledge of the subject .
                            You forfeit any and all positions of substance by going into the gutter .
                             

                            "Drop the name-calling." Meteor Blades 2/4/11

                            by indycam on Mon Jul 09, 2012 at 09:08:43 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

    •  Crash standards are the same same . (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      DamselleFly

      They are not less for electric cars that can get on the freeway .

      "Drop the name-calling." Meteor Blades 2/4/11

      by indycam on Sun Jul 08, 2012 at 06:27:24 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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