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Earlier today, I posted a diary because I was really, really creeped out by an Anti-Choice group's symbol.

Three years ago, an administrator for that very same anti-abortion group registered an account here at Daily Kos, and didn't make a single comment until I happened to mention that I thought their symbol looked creepily like a Wolfsangel, but I didn't accuse them of being Nazis, just stated that I was a bit creeped out by the symbol.

They said they repudiated Nazism. A lot of other Kossacks commented and said that they didn't think the similarities were intentional. So I was willing to let it go and assume that they weren't intentionally evoking white nationalist imagery. Then they posted a response to my diary, in which they said a number of completely loony things which make me wonder if my instincts weren't right to begin with.

Let's pause to consider how twisted up this whole scenario is. Two babies are murdered every minute in this country, and this Daily Kos blogger wants to ramble about how our symbol kind of, a little bit, sorta looks like some obscure pagan symbol that has been co-opted by a group that has a big name but virtually never does anything?
Virtually never does anything?! I think Alan Berg would disagree. I think Johnny and Lisa Bonta would disagree. I think that the families of the people murdered recently by Neo Nazis would disagree.
Meanwhile, Planned Parenthood is targeting minorities for extermination. No big deal. What's that? You think pro-choice arguments have some merit? Sorry, we haven't yet found one that does. Even if we did have neo-Nazi sympathies, what would that matter?
Wow. Planned Parenthood is committing genocide? There's nothing wrong with Nazism as long as it stops abortions? Is that what they're saying?
The fundamental issue at hand is that babies are being murdered, the future of our country is being eroded, and our country is spitting in God's face every minute that we allow this gross violation of human rights and the image of God in humanity.
You're a-okay with Nazism and yet I'm the one spitting in the face of god?!

This is sheer lunacy. A Christian myself, I've seen what happens when religious folks lose touch with reality. There's no evidence I could present here which could possibly change their minds. They have a whole page devoted to mental acrobatics and fallacious arguments. When someone abandons reason for a logic-free worldview, debating with them is about as effective as getting into a shouting match with a derecho.

But I will say this: I don't like abortion. To clarify: I don't think that abortion is the killing of a human being. I don't think that there's anything bad about it or wrong with it, and I think we need to stop shaming the women who've made the decision to have an abortion. I don't like abortion because it is an emergency medical procedure that only happens when something goes wrong. It happens when someone is raped. It happens when birth control fails. It happens when there are medical complications. It happens a whole hell of a lot with teenagers who were taught abstinence-only sex ed.

Because I don't like abortion, I want women to have free access to birth control. I want everyone of reproductive age to know how to use it, and to have access to it. I want women to have access to the prenatal care that they need to have babies safely. I want a world without rape, where women don't have to sit in hospital rooms and wait for emergency contraception. I want a world were poor and minority women can afford to have babies and raise them without working multiple jobs. I want a world where having a baby isn't the end of a woman's career, the end of her ability to go to school, and an event which might destroy her life. I want a world where childcare is universally available and affordable so that no woman is forced to choose between their calling and having a child.

I want a world where women aren't shamed for making a hard decision that I'm never going to have to make, because I don't have a uterus.

I want abortion to be safe, legal, available, and rare.

I'm supporting the education policies, the childcare policies, the healthcare policies, the social policies, and the public welfare policies which can achieve that world.

I'm not going to be lectured on morality by someone who only cares about the welfare of a child from conception to birth, and I'm certainly not going to listen to someone's "ethical" ramblings of someone who has said "Nazi sympathies[?] What would that matter?"

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Comment Preferences

  •  When We Let Them Say Babies Are Being Murdered (23+ / 0-)

    we've surrendered.  Those are not babies.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Mon Jul 09, 2012 at 06:54:55 PM PDT

    •  Yep. (6+ / 0-)

      They are emotionally immature and have only their reactionary rhetoric and their stupidity to comfort themselves with.  Well, that and their imaginary sky friend.

      ~War is Peace~Freedom is Slavery~Ignorance is Strength~ George Orwell "1984"

      by Kristina40 on Mon Jul 09, 2012 at 07:07:51 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Their website is full of this kind of derp. (7+ / 0-)

        My favorite is when they equate abortion to strangling a toddler. No, no, I think I prefer the bit where they called it a baby getting a knife to the spinal column. Okay, okay, no the best part is where their entire argument for the existence of God is 'Yes he does' followed by links to bible verses.

        On the brightest of sides it looks like they are doing their part to drop out of the gene pool. "If your doctor believes that your pregnancy is too risky to allow you to go through with it, may we humbly suggest you find another doctor, one who believes that life is not disposable and, ideally, one who has experience with high-risk pregnancies?"

  •  Further (9+ / 0-)

    As opposed as we might be to abortion as a method of birth control, don't let anyone who opposes it in all cases refer to him- or herself as "pro life." They aren't, except in very rare cases -- for most of the anti-abortion people, protection of life ends right after a baby is born.

    -7.75, -8.10; All it takes is security in your own civil rights to make you complacent.

    by Dave in Northridge on Mon Jul 09, 2012 at 07:07:15 PM PDT

    •  Of course they aren't. Want to bet that people (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      OllieGarkey, LadyMiseryAli

      who identify as "pro-life" are actually less likely to regularly donate blood (which will definitely save ACTUAL lives) than those who identify as pro-choice?  Sorry if I am annoying anyone when I keep bringing this up but it just shows how hypocritical most of them are.

      *a tip for first time blood donors: the more relaxed you can keep your arm the easier it will be.  So just lie back, close your eyes, take a few deep breaths, and relax all your arm muscles and you will probably find that the finger prick they use to check your iron level is actually worse than the needle itself.

      There is no saving throw against stupid.

      by Throw The Bums Out on Mon Jul 09, 2012 at 11:36:32 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I have a quibble (11+ / 0-)

    with your 3rd-from-last paragraph. I would much rather see it expressed this way:

    I want abortion to be safe, legal, available.
    Period.

    The idea that abortion should be "rare" (whatever that means) is another way that liberals inadvertently buy into and help propagate RW memes.  Who's to decide when abortions stop being rare, as if there was some optimal number that could be counted and measured?

    Trust the women. It's that simple.

    Otherwise - good diary.

    •  That's a great point. (9+ / 0-)

      And I trust women.

      The only thing that bothers me about abortion is that sometimes people can't have the babies they want to have.

      Economic issues meant they couldn't afford a baby. There was no childcare and no support, so in some cases they had to choose between schooling, their future, and having a baby.

      I don't think we'll get rid of the glass ceiling until a single woman can decide to have a baby without having to worry about whether she'll finish college, or whether she'll be able to keep her career, or whether she'll have to get another job to pay for the child, or whether there will be childcare she can afford that works on her schedule.

      They shouldn't have to depend on charity, either, the services they need should be readily available.

      So I'll drop the word rare in the future, because I don't think it's communicating that aspect of what I'm trying to communicate.

      An Fhirinn an aghaidh an t'Saoghail. (The truth against the world.) Is treasa tuath na tighearna. (The common people are mightier than the lords.)

      by OllieGarkey on Mon Jul 09, 2012 at 07:30:05 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The problem with "rare" is... (3+ / 0-)

        ...it's extremely easy to be misconstrued as "I hate abortion but". And way, way, way too many pro-choicers feel the need to say things like that, which serve no purpose except to hand more ammunition to the anti-choicers. Then they can say "See, even they think abortion is horrible, but they still support it!"

        Look no further than Bill Clinton's use of "Safe, legal and rare" in his 1992 convention speech. Throughout his presidency, the antis whined that he was doing all he could for the first two and nothing for the third (which was true, if only because they had helped destroy his health care reforms!).

        Certaines personnes disent qu'il y a une femme à blâmer, Mais je sais que c'est ma faute sacrément.

        by RamblinDave on Mon Jul 09, 2012 at 09:33:08 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  In a world where proper sex education, (6+ / 0-)

      contraceptives, and honest, no-BS medical and family planning advice is available to people, abortion would become rare by default.

      Seriously, the GOP has, at various times, said things to indicate that Democrats would make abortion mandatory, which is really effin' stupid when you think that one through.

      •  Please see RamblinDave's comment in (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        OllieGarkey, LadyMiseryAli

        reply to Ollie Garkey's reply to me. It reinforces my point, which you missed.

        And what is "would become" ? Abortion already is rare in this country.

        •  I suspect they're rare these days because (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          LadyMiseryAli

          of lack of availability. I understand some states have maybe one clinic left to provide abortions, so I suspect that a lot of women on the far edges of said states simply forgo the procedure. When someone is working a low-wage retail job where they have almost no vacation time, or are scared to use it because they fear retaliation (it happens), popping off for a couple days' jaunt to the clinic can seem an insurmountable obstacle.

        •  Rare? (0+ / 0-)
          Abortion already is rare in this country.
          I mean, two per minute, that's a snail's pace. 53 million since Roe v Wade - c'mon y'all, we can kill faster than that!

          http://blog.abolishhumanabortion.com/2012/07/neo-nazi-no-anti-choice-wait-what.html

          by Rhology on Tue Jul 10, 2012 at 09:04:57 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  That's 53,000,000 (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            OllieGarkey

            women's lives saved.  53 million women's health protected and preserved.  53 million women's financial health protected and preserved.  53 million women's family health protected and preserved.  53 million women's marital health protected and preserved.  53 million women's constitutional health protected and preserved.  

            Men and children benefit from women's freedom of health.  You benefit from women's freedom of health.  You can't divide and conquer families.  You can't turn a loving relationship into a violent relationship.  You can't dash hopes and dreams parents have for their children's futures.  You don't have that power, half pint.

            Now be off with ya.  I hear we have a stink bug problem.  You have a much better chance of abolishing them than you would abolishing what's good for this country.

            •  You made that up (0+ / 0-)

              You have a great imagination.
              Show me your evidence that 53 million dead babies = 53 million lives saved, enhanced, preserved, whatever.

              Yes, you and I both know you can't provide any.

              -- You can't divide and conquer families. --

              Oh, you mean like murdering children and siblings when they're very young? Good call.

              http://blog.abolishhumanabortion.com/2012/07/no-seriously.html

              by Rhology on Tue Jul 10, 2012 at 01:02:47 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  Oh, boy, looks like we got a live one here. n/t (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            OllieGarkey
    •  rare by reducing demand, not limiting access (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      RamblinDave, OllieGarkey, Ahianne

      Contraception and education, for example.

  •  Mental acrobatics and fallacious arguments (4+ / 0-)

    Exactly. Please someone try to explain to me how a person could hold such a rigid stance on abortion and yet be against contraception. How even though abstinence only education has proven to be a disastrous failure they insist on putting their children at risk of pregnancy and disease. The mental acrobatics going on must look like two monkeys fighting over one banana.

    •  more like monkeys flinging poo (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Steveningen, LadyMiseryAli

      Inside their heads. Or something like that.

      All things in the sky are pure to those who have no telescopes. – Charles Fort

      by subtropolis on Mon Jul 09, 2012 at 09:27:48 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Simple, really (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Steveningen, LadyMiseryAli

      They really and truly believe all these problems would go away if we all went back to having prayer in school and everybody going to church on Sunday. And oh yeah, if we cut taxes so families could live on a single income, then women would stay in the kitchen where they belong.

      And no, there's no use in trying to reason with people like that!

      Certaines personnes disent qu'il y a une femme à blâmer, Mais je sais que c'est ma faute sacrément.

      by RamblinDave on Mon Jul 09, 2012 at 09:35:23 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  While I strongly disagree with them... (3+ / 0-)

    ...I would argue that they deserve some level of respect for at least coming here and posting in a respectful manner.  I know the times I've posted on rightwing sites and tried to be calm, respectful, and logical I would be torn apart.

    In fact, in looking at your previous diary, I'm also impressed with our side for not jumping all over them.

  •  Great diary, but please understand one thing (5+ / 0-)

    Thank you for this, and for standing up to the bullies!

    I do want to address one thing about your closing remarks, though. You said:

    I'm not going to be lectured on morality by someone who only cares about the welfare of a child from conception to birth, and I'm certainly not going to listen to someone's "ethical" ramblings of someone who has said "Nazi sympathies[?] What would that matter?"
    I'll be frank with you here: if you're going to get involved in this war (and it is a war, like it or not), then oh yes, you are going to be lectured like you can't imagine. You don't have to listen, of course, but it's going to happen whether you want it or not. You're going to be lectured on what the Good Book says, on what Planned Parenthood is really after and why, on what Margaret Sanger and Susan B. Anthony believed, on how you're a racist (because PP is trying to wipe out black neighborhoods) and a sexist (because you're trying to deprive women of their essential natures as nurturers),  and on how you warrant comparisons to Hitler. And of course they're wrong about all of the above, but the first thing you've got to accept here is that you're not going to shut them up.

    Which is all the more reason why you and I and others like us need to be out there pushing back. And thank you for stepping up this time.

    Certaines personnes disent qu'il y a une femme à blâmer, Mais je sais que c'est ma faute sacrément.

    by RamblinDave on Mon Jul 09, 2012 at 09:40:55 PM PDT

    •  That's true. People can always post another (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      RamblinDave, Oh Mary Oh

      internet reply, but the "I'm not going to be lectured by a hypocrite" speech works in public.

      And I know my Bible better than these folks do most of the time. Their heads really start spinning when I go to the Greek.

      I haven't gotten involved in this fight much because I've been focusing my attention elsewhere, but with what's been happening lately, I'm more than happy to get involved.

      I wonder if there's a way to develop messaging which can get conservatives and moderates to flip on the abortion debate.

      One of the arguments I like using on the small government guys (because it's true) is that government should never have the power to prevent an American citizen from obtaining a medical operation that they and their doctor approve.

      The government shouldn't have the power to say what medical operations we can and can't have.

      Anecdotally, Libertarians and moderate republicans have been responding really well to that.

      An Fhirinn an aghaidh an t'Saoghail. (The truth against the world.) Is treasa tuath na tighearna. (The common people are mightier than the lords.)

      by OllieGarkey on Tue Jul 10, 2012 at 06:11:34 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yes, by all means, lay some Bible on us. (0+ / 0-)

        --And I know my Bible better than these folks do most of the time. Their heads really start spinning when I go to the Greek.--

        LOL I'm ready for my head to start spinning!

        http://blog.abolishhumanabortion.com/2012/07/neo-nazi-no-anti-choice-wait-what.html

        by Rhology on Tue Jul 10, 2012 at 09:03:52 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Pro-Life Hypocrisy (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    edrie, OllieGarkey, LadyMiseryAli

    Follow me if you will down the rabbit hole of Religulous Reich thinking:-

    The people that claim to be "pro-life" are predominantly from the right wing of the political spectrum

    The Right wing of the political spectrum predominantly supports an "aggressive" form of foreign policy where war is an acceptable option,

    and also predominantly support capital punishment of criminals....ie executing them.

    So..... you are pro-life as long as the life concerned is a symbiotic organism with no self awareness and free will,

    but pro-death after that organism is actually born.

    Hypocrisy much?

    And to the OP may I suggest you free yourself from the lazy and very American habit of branding yourself a generic Christian. That is the tactic THEY use to justify whatever bigotry is in their hearts. If you do insist on carrying on with using such a broad brush term, it just feeds into me and my ilk branding all Kristyhuns with the tar of the worst offenders. The tar of the sexual offenders, the tax dodgers, the snake oil sellers, the theocrats, the creotards, the gay haters, the WBC, the KKK, the racist Christian Identity lot, etc etc..... y see they all call themselves the same name you do.

    Is it so hard to say "As a (insert specific Christian denomination and sect here)"

    Just a suggestion from this militant secularist and anti-theist with a big bucket of tar and a ready brush ;-)

    •  there is NOTHING "christian" about these (0+ / 0-)

      sick fanatics.  nothing at all - they are the very antithesis of the teachings of jesus of nazareth - which is why i loathe them so very much!

      hypocrites.  all of them!

    •  Dave, I want to say thank you. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Oh Mary Oh

      No one has ever communicated that point to me. I'll start referring to myself as a Methodist from now on if it helps us work together.

      And I'm proud to be a Methodist partly because the Methodist church funds planned parenthood. We know that it's primary function, and about 95% of its work is cancer screenings and prenatal care for poor and minority women, and that they actually do a lot of hard work to make sure that the people who want babies can have them.

      I'll refer to myself as a Methodist from now on. That's a deal that I'm happy to make.

      An Fhirinn an aghaidh an t'Saoghail. (The truth against the world.) Is treasa tuath na tighearna. (The common people are mightier than the lords.)

      by OllieGarkey on Tue Jul 10, 2012 at 06:06:13 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  You have been answered. (0+ / 0-)

    http://blog.abolishhumanabortion.com/2012/07/neo-nazi-no-anti-choice-wait-what.html

    by Rhology on Tue Jul 10, 2012 at 09:01:21 AM PDT

    •  Why? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      OllieGarkey

      Engaging with a willfully ignorant person is like banging heads against a brick wall. It's painful and it gets people nowhere. People like you aren't interested in facts and education, so there is no point.

      •  But I could easily say the same about you. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Abolitionist 1

        Engaging with a willfully ignorant person is like banging heads against a brick wall. It's painful and it gets people nowhere. People like you aren't interested in facts and education, so there is no point.

        http://blog.abolishhumanabortion.com/2012/07/no-seriously.html

        by Rhology on Wed Jul 11, 2012 at 12:34:14 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

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