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Everyone who knows me knows that I have been pretty passionate about everything that's been happening in (um...to) Wisconsin since January 2011, and part of that passion has been trying to engage my 18 year-old and her friends in the political process.  And it's working!  They not only have been listening to me go on and on (and on and on) about what's happening to our state, but they have asking questions, sharing opinions, and watching political news, and the ones who were of age to do so, voted on June 5th.  I was so pleased and proud of all of them - and I could tell they were pretty pleased and proud of themselves, happily wearing their "I voted!" stickers the rest of the day.  Hell, we even took pictures!  

So can you imagine their disappointment when I told them their votes weren't showing up yet?  Mine is, their parents' are...for weeks now.  But theirs aren't.

When my daughter turned 18 in February, I took the afternoon off so I could take her to get her Official for Voting-And-Everything-Else State-issued Wisconsin ID...the free one.  I was half expecting that she would be given a hard time because of the earlier controversy about it but, much to my surprise, the friendly young woman at the reception desk was quite accommodating.  When I told her it was my daughter's birthday and we were there for her ID, she perkily wished my daughter a Happy Birthday and asked for her name.  Even more to my surprise, just seconds later she handed my daughter a numbered ticket with her name on it; the DMV already had her in their system.  No forms to fill out, no birth certificate to show, no social security number to confirm...just a verbal name and a match was found.  I found that interesting, given she'd never applied for an ID before and didn't have a driver's license.  No criminal record, either.  But, I shrugged it off as a nice convenience and we moved on, leaving less than 15 minutes later with her temporary paper ID; soon she'd have a real plastic ID and ready to cash checks and vote!  

Yeah, I should have known better.  I forgot we were in Fitzwalkerstan.

Her ID showed up as expected, about 2 weeks later. The paper ID, though a nice thought, was often more a hassle than helpful in the meantime.  People who need to see ID - say, to pick up a Western Union wire transfer (Happy Birthday, Love Dad!), or to cash a check (Happy Birthday, Love Grandma!) weren't aware that these temporary paper ID's existed and hesitated to proceed (actually, just gave her a hard time)...at least, when she was by herself.  (It's amazing how they change their tune when Mom walks in and demands to see the manager if the not going to accept daughter's STATE ISSUED temporary ID.  Yeah, I'm that kind of mom. :)  So, not only had DOT initially tried to make getting the free ID's difficult, but they also seemed to have failed pretty miserably at notifying the public - businesses - that require IDs for transactions.  It made me wonder how voting would go for people who had to use those.

But my daughter did have her Official for Voting-And-Everything-Else State-issued Wisconsin ID on June 5th, so we went together to our polling place to vote.  When we got there, she was directed to the table for new voters; I proceeded to vote, being a registered and active voter for years, and was done before she even finished filling out the registration form.  I was there when she was showing her Official for Voting-And-Everything-Else State-issued Wisconsin ID, and with her when she took her ballot, and I watch when she marked her candidate and put the ballot into the machine.  So, no one - NO ONE - can tell me she didn't vote.  The same is true of her boyfriend, who was also a first-time voter but in a different ward.  I took my friend, also a long-time registered voter, to yet another ward, where she had to update her address before voting.  I watched each of them vote, but NONE of their votes are showing up yet.  

Now, my friend is quite capable of advocating for herself and has already gone and gotten a copy of her registration; she is pursuing a copy of her actual ballot. She's a bit ticked off (to put it mildly) and is not playing.  But my daughter and her boyfriend would like some assistance, so you can bet John Doe's ass I'll be leading the way in their pursuit to find their votes.  I'm curious if, when my daughter went to get her ID she didn't have to prove her identity first, that has anything to do with why her vote isn't showing up yet.  We voted at the same time, at the same polling place.  According to the clerk's office in Madison, votes are entered into the Voter Public Access database ward-by-ward.  So where the hell are their votes?  And how many others are "missing", too?  And of them, I wonder how many of those voters were poor, elderly, young, or an ethnic minority.  And I'd like to know just how many were for Barrett and Mitchell.

Have you checked on your vote?  Do you know any new-voters and if they have checked their votes?  I encourage everyone to do so (after every election!), and anyone whose vote isn't showing up and would like to share their voting experience with me, I'd love to hear from you.  

Regardless, we'll be looking into where their votes are and will report back what we find out...and more.  LOTS more.  

Poll

Have you checked to see if your vote has been listed on the Voter Public Access site?

30%10 votes
63%21 votes
6%2 votes

| 33 votes | Vote | Results

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Comment Preferences

  •  Please fix link for 'Voter Public Access'. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mumtaznepal, Renee, Smoh

    It needs a 'v' at the end to make it a '.gov' website.

    When life gives you wingnuts, make wingnut butter!

    by antirove on Mon Jul 16, 2012 at 09:57:38 PM PDT

  •  Did you contact the Government Accountability (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Renee, Smoh

    Board?

    I believe we help each other in times of need. I want all our children to get an excellent education. Every American deserves health care. I love my country. I am a patriot. I am a voter. I am a Democrat.

    by mumtaznepal on Mon Jul 16, 2012 at 10:23:26 PM PDT

  •  I think I'm missing something. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Smoh

    How can you tell which votes have showed up? I thought after you cast an anonymous ballot the vote was untraceable...

    Poverty = politics.

    by Renee on Mon Jul 16, 2012 at 11:06:50 PM PDT

    •  there should be some system to confirm THAT (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Smoh, HudsonValleyMark, Renee

      you voted, but not HOW you voted.

      in OR vote-by-mail, there's a two or 3 part system so that once the returned ballot is opened, you get checked off as having voted, and THEN the security envelop is opened and the ballot fed through the scanner, with no identifying info attached.

      "real" work : a job where you wash your hands BEFORE you use the bathroom...

      by chimene on Tue Jul 17, 2012 at 12:58:07 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  From the voter access website... (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Nomi Rene, Smoh, HudsonValleyMark, Renee

      I can see a record of which elections I voted in.

      Each time we vote, we sign the voting book, so there is a record of our having voted. Of course, it is not possible to get the actual ballot (not sure where the diarist was going with the comment about her friend wanting her actual ballot...)

      So, yes, the actual vote is anonymous, but the fact that you voted (or not) is public record.

      p.s. to look up your voting history if you are a WI resident, go to the voter access website linked in the diary, then 1) click "Look up your voter registration and polling place location," 2) fill in your name and birthday and click search, 3) click on your name, and 4) click "View your Voting History."

      •  Actually, you CAN get a copy of your ballot. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        WisVoter, Renee

        In an email to Mary Magnuson, on June 27th, 2012, Kevin Kennedy states:

        "Voted ballots may be copied or viewed under the public records law."

        I can't remember where I found it, but I actually have a copy.  I believe it was posted somewhere on the GAB site.

        You can have it or even touch it, but an official can show it to you or make a copy of it for you.  Why is this important?  Because different types of votes get different types of ballots (e.g. provisional ballots are handled differently than regular ballots), and if my friend (for example), who is a life-long WI resident with a 30-year voting history moves, she should be given a regular ballot after updating her address.  She believes she was given a provisional ballot and - therefore - because she didn't go in and show an ID by the deadline, her vote would have been tossed out.  She presented a legal lease to prove her new residence (per the City of Madison), but was not required to show an ID.  2 poll workers disagreed about this...and her vote isn't showing up.  So, damned skippy, she want to see her ballot...and the law says she can.  Now we'll see how easy (or hard) it is...

        •  Oops... correction - you CAN'T have it... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          WisVoter, Renee
        •  umm, huh? (0+ / 0-)

          Hi, sorry, it's me again. Only on my second cup of coffee, so feel free to tell me anything I'm missing. :)

          She believes she was given a provisional ballot? Did she put it in the scanner, or didn't she?

          If she cast a regular ballot, then (1) presumably it was counted, and there would be no way to uncount it retroactively (even in the Romney era); (2) it would be hard to determine whether it was counted except by counting all the ballots counted by that machine (it might not be clear even then); (3) unless she recognizes how it was filled in, there is no way to trace it back to her; and (4) if she does recognize it, that doesn't tell her whether it was counted except perhaps indirectly via counting all the ballots.

          If she cast a provisional ballot that was set aside, I'm not familiar with Wisconsin procedures in detail, but certainly there should be a clear record that she received a provisional ballot, and whether it was counted. Again, actually laying hands on that ballot might be hard or impossible -- and wouldn't tell you whether the ballot was actually included in the count anyway.

          I think it's really important to distinguish between whether someone's voter history was updated and whether their vote was counted. You have no more or less reason to think your vote counted than your 18-year-old does. Frankly, if your ballots were scanned, I would bet that they were counted, but there is no way directly to prove it, regardless of whether your respective voter histories have been updated.

          •  Okay, let me repharase... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            chimene

            We are both very aware that provisional ballots are handled differently.  What I should have said is she thinks her ballot may have been treated like a provisional ballot...and here's why:

            First, she was a long-time registered and active voter who merely had a change of address.  Not a new voter.  She went in prepared with a lease to provide the updated address information - which, on the City of Madison web site it says a current lease is sufficient.  And that lease wasn't just any lease, a HUD lease, which lists all of her household members, their social security numbers, and - of course - the current address.  In order to even be in HUD housing, you MUST show your ID.  

            The man who greeted her at the registration table had her fill out the required form, show her lease, and that was that.  However, a 2nd poll worker interrupted and insisted that she show a valid state ID - because, according to the state's registration information, leases are not allowed for updating addresses.  There was an actual debate between the 2 poll workers and my friend, but in the end the poll worker handling her case passed her through to vote.  And yes, she did get a ballot that was scanned into a machine...but not before the other poll worker stormed off to the back, clearly angry that she didn't win the argument.

            Did that poll worker file an incident that may have caused her vote to be delete?  In looking at the documentation the poll workers fill out and turn in, I think it’s absolutely possible.  Have you reviewed those documents and instructions?  

            Now, if I'm understanding you, you believe there is no way her actual ballot can be differentiated from the rest of the ballots.  And, in theory - according to election rules - that may very well appear to be true.  However, if they number each person who comes in, and then they mark something down when they hand you a ballot (which is what I witnessed for each person I took to vote), and then you see the number your ballot was going through the machine, then they can track a particular ballot down.  I know databases and cross-matches - it can be done.  Do they want to look for it?  No.  Is it a royal pain?  Yes.  But it's possible, it's legal, and it's the right of every Wisconsinite to view and have copies of ballots - their own, their wards, or the entire state.  That is, kind sir, a fact.

            What's bothering my friend is the clerk telling her she has no RIGHT to see ANY ballot...and therein lies a cause for suspicion – she was straight-up lying.  What's bothering me is that someone from the same office told me, personally, that all votes are entered into the system on a ward-by-ward basis.  So if mine is showing up, why is my daughter's not?  And for that matter, nor is that same friend's daughter.  She lives where I do for nearly 2 years, yet the poll lists STILL are not listing her even though she has twice brought in valid ID and current proof of address…twice.  So, no excuses for her not being on the registered voter list.  What's more, VPA still has her listed at their old address, too. WHY?  She moved, she updated her information LAST YEAR, yet even today VPA still shows her at her old address from 2 years ago – but her vote for Prosser/Kloppenburg is listed.  Now, perhaps this doesn't tell YOU that there is a problem, but it's SCREAMING to us that there is…and we want answers.  

            Now, to reiterate what I said before, seeing that your vote listed on your history may not mean for sure your vote was counted, but NOT seeing is a sure sign it has not been.  You disagree with this, and I guess I could modify that to say, “It’s a sure sign that it MAY not have been counted.”  Wrong address listed, current vote not listed.  PROBLEM.  

            You can try to convince me that there’s no man behind the curtain and to look the other way, and that through the smoke and mirrors I won’t find anything – and maybe you’re right.  But you can give up your efforts to dissuade me.  I’m nearly 50, kids are grown, I put in my 40 hours…and if I want to crawl up the ass of every election official in this state in my spare time there’s not a damned thing you or anyone can say to stop me.  But I do appreciate your input!

            •  let's see (0+ / 0-)
              Did that poll worker file an incident that may have caused her vote to be delete?  In looking at the documentation the poll workers fill out and turn in, I think it’s absolutely possible.  Have you reviewed those documents and instructions?

              I have, but of course it's possible that I missed something -- there are a lot of details, and not having voted in Wisconsin, I may not always understand them.

              So, how do you think a poll worker could file an incident that would lead a vote to be deleted? You wrote a long comment, but I can't really figure out what your scenario is.

              However, if they number each person who comes in, and then they mark something down when they hand you a ballot (which is what I witnessed for each person I took to vote), and then you see the number your ballot was going through the machine, then they can track a particular ballot down.
              If they "mark something down when they hand you a ballot"? I can't tell what that means. If it's a provisional ballot, then they should write the PV number on the back of the ballot. Otherwise, everyone's name should appear on two identical numbered poll lists. It's true that if the ballots are scanned in the same order that people are listed on the poll lists, and if the scanner stores the ballots in order, someone can go back through the ballots and -- with some uncertainty -- find a particular voter's ballot. (So my numbered point (3) was overstated; it would be tenuous, but not inherently impossible.) So, are you speculating that someone, somewhere, at some time might have done this and manually subtracted all the votes on the ballot? Where in the documentation and instructions do you find any provision for that -- or whatever you are speculating?
              What's bothering my friend is the clerk telling her she has no RIGHT to see ANY ballot...and therein lies a cause for suspicion – she was straight-up lying.
              Without knowing what was said -- and when -- I'm in no position to judge whether the clerk was even wrong, never mind lying. Could be.
              What's bothering me is that someone from the same office told me, personally, that all votes are entered into the system on a ward-by-ward basis.  So if mine is showing up, why is my daughter's not?
              What I really, truly don't understand is why you are indignantly asking this question on Daily Kos -- as if the question itself is damning -- instead of asking the election officials who may be able to tell you. Are you familiar with the phrase, "just asking questions?" You've had a lot of them.
              ...Now, perhaps this doesn't tell YOU that there is a problem, but it's SCREAMING to us that there is…and we want answers.
              If you want answers about the registration lists and voter histories -- and what votes are included in the final counts -- why specifically don't you have them yet, and what specifically are you doing to get them? How does writing these diaries help? I'm bewildered.
              Now, to reiterate what I said before, seeing that your vote listed on your history may not mean for sure your vote was counted, but NOT seeing is a sure sign it has not been.  You disagree with this, and I guess I could modify that to say, “It’s a sure sign that it MAY not have been counted.”
              Definitely maybe, huh?

              I just find this very strange. Hacking the scanners would at least be parsimonious. Deciding that a bunch of voters should be treated as retroactively ineligible, somehow deleting their individual votes from the totals, and crossing them off the voter history update lists -- or whatever you think may have happened -- seems like a Keystone Kops approach to election fraud.

              ...if I want to crawl up the ass of every election official in this state in my spare time there’s not a damned thing you or anyone can say to stop me.
              Fine by me. (I assume you'll try to treat people decently.) I just want your diaries to have a higher ratio of facts to questions.
              •  Thank you! (0+ / 0-)

                I really do appreciate that you take the time to read and respond.  But, as much as you ponder why I'm bothering to write my thoughts, questions, and concerns, I am pondering why you care enough TO read and respond as you do?  It's pretty clear to me that you're not like-minded - I don't see that you're merely playing devil's advocate.  Rather, I'm taking you to be more of an antagonist, with all your attempts to punch holes or disqualify what I say, and even kind of belittle me with verbal pats on the head, as if I'm a child you're shushing back to bed.  And I'm okay with that.  Hey, whatever flips your trigger, you know?  But I don't get why you bother...

                None-the-less, I want you to know this about me: I am not stupid and I do know what I'm doing.  I am not posting on whims, nor am I unsure of my point...nor of what I'm after.  To be sure, I am quite clear and intent.  Though my posts may seem random or pointless to you, others see something very different.  That one person says "this is too conspiracy-theory for me" (while she's sharing it), while another says "Ah, finally connecting the dots...", tells me that some are missing the point while others are getting it.  So, I will say to you what I say to my 8 and 10 year old grandsons when we're watching a movie - stop asking questions and pay attention...you'll get it eventually.

                Now, if you REALLY must know, I have been in contact with the GAB, the Madison Clerks Office, and the Dane County District Attorney; my "partner in crime" has had even more contact with all of the above, but I'll add to that the feds.  In writing, over the phone, via email, and in person.  She's a thorn in their sides - I'm barely a pain.  Now! I have no shame in saying I'm menopausal and pissed.  Don't think for a second I'm about to be deterred. ;)

                Oh, the final thing you should know about me is that I am far to intent on what I'm doing to play 20 Questions with you.  I'm happy to debate or discuss (as time allows), but if you're going to do what my grand kids do, I'm going to shut you down pretty quick.  I'm just letting you know.   That's why I'm not answering your questions.  I have no time for that.

                Again, thanks for your time and attention.  Have a good night!  

                •  oh my (0+ / 0-)
                  That's why I'm not answering your questions.  I have no time for that.
                  So you had time to write a 400-word response, but you just couldn't squeeze in an explanation of the premise of your diary, namely, that there is some connection between the voter history files and whose votes are counted.

                  If that makes sense to you, then I guess it's no wonder that you experience my approach as antagonistic. Yes, there will always be people who "connect the dots"; that's why we have constellations. That doesn't mean that those of us who sputter, "B-b-b-b-but what makes you think there is actually a hunter in the sky?!" are doing anything wrong.

                  Meanwhile, a voter from Pennsylvania -- a state where most voters use unverifiable paperless DREs -- showed up here. Are you satisfied with what she learned from your diary?

                  You find it strange that someone actually cares whether your ideas make any sense? OK, maybe the joke is on me.

                  •  Go away Mark, you are not adding anything (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Nomi Rene

                    positive to the discussion.

                    This is, of course, the difference between republicans and human beings. - Captain Frogbert

                    by glorificus on Wed Jul 18, 2012 at 08:36:22 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  Oh my... (0+ / 0-)

                    Did you really count my words???  I hope for your sake you did not...  

                    This is going to be my last response to you on this diary - the games you play are of no interest to me.  Let me demonstrate one that I've noticed the right is really good at: taking a snippet and pretending it's the essence of the entire statement.  What I said was,

                    Oh, the final thing you should know about me is that I am far to intent on what I'm doing to play 20 Questions with you.  I'm happy to debate or discuss (as time allows), but if you're going to do what my grand kids do, I'm going to shut you down pretty quick.  I'm just letting you know.   That's why I'm not answering your questions.  I have no time for that.
                    Why would you only quote the last 2 lines, when the actual point of that statement was the first one?  Here, I'll shorten it for you so you get the true point of that statement:

                    I am far too intent on what I'm doing to play 20 Questions with you.  I have no time for that.  

                    Now - before I end this discussion (on my end, anyway - feel free to ramble on) - I just did a word count on my last post: 424 words.  I have two words for you now: Get help.

        •  I forgot that they number the ballots... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Renee

          ...and put the same number in the poll book?  If so, they would be able to find your actual ballot.

          Hmmm.... does seem to take away the anonymity thing. No doubt there are processes in place to eliminate people comparing ballots to poll books to see how people voted (unless, perhaps, said voter actually requests their ballot).

    •  +1 (0+ / 0-)

      Whether their voter history records have been updated is orthogonal to whether their votes were counted.

      Both are important in the long run: having your voter history updated protects you from being purged. Of course, Wisconsin has Election Day Registration, so I guess it is somewhat less important there.

      •  Can you explain? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Smoh, 3goldens

        What do you mean by, "Of course, Wisconsin has Election Day Registration, so I guess it is somewhat less important there."

        It seems to me ALL votes should eventually be listed on the VPA site.  I can understand if some take longer than others, but when it comes to my daughter:

        A) she was already in the state's DMV system, which means the state knew she was a Wisconsinite AND about to turn 18.

        B) she showed up with the required documentation.

        C) she voted at the same time I did and, according to the Madison Clerk's office, votes are entered into VPA after all recounts and ward-by-ward.  Her vote should be listed.  Until we see it, how do we know it was counted?  I understand there is no guarantee it was even if it is listed, but if it's not listed, it's a sure sign it was not...or at least, someone has some explaining to do as to why it was counted but not entered into her history.

        •  surely all histories should be updated (0+ / 0-)
          What do you mean by, "Of course, Wisconsin has Election Day Registration, so I guess it is somewhat less important there."
          Read that in the context of registration purges. In a state without Election Day Registration, if your registration is purged because you allegedly haven't voted recently, you're SOL regardless of the facts. Notification provisions are supposed to prevent this. The ability to register at the polls -- which we don't have here in New York, or in most states -- is an additional protection against being purged erroneously. That's what I mean by "somewhat less important."
          Her vote should be listed.  Until we see it, how do we know it was counted?  I understand there is no guarantee it was even if it is listed, but if it's not listed, it's a sure sign it was not
          I apologize for interrupting right there, but this is the key. It's not a sure sign; in fact, it is no sign at all. Again, whether your daughter's voter history has been updated has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on whether her ballot was counted. You say you saw her put her ballot in the scanner. Why do you think that some website will give you any insight into whether the scanner counted the ballot?
          ...or at least, someone has some explaining to do as to why it was counted but not entered into her history.
          Sure, all the voter histories should be correct. It wouldn't surprise me if many jurisdictions are behind on processing data that wasn't immediately pertinent to the elections and recounts -- but that doesn't mean that they should remain behind forever.
      •  Agree, but if I weren't listed (0+ / 0-)

        in the voter history as having voted in a certain election, it would make me nervous too, about whether my vote was counted.

        Walker, your pink slip is coming, unless the orange jumpsuit gets you first.

        by non acquiescer on Tue Jul 17, 2012 at 03:09:40 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Voting by MAIL (0+ / 0-)

    I don't worry about voting at the polls on Election Day, because I get a mail-in ballot at every election cycle and plan to keep it that way. My state allows for the mail-in ballots which is nice since I also play election judge too. I would recommend if you can vote by mail do it. It will allow you to get it done and you don't have to worry about it on Election Day, or about those long lines.

    Check with your local Election Supervisor and see if you can vote by mail...
    •  Voting by mail isn't enough... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Smoh

      You need to follow up to make sure your vote was ACTUALLY counted.  And actually, ESPECIALLY by mail.  How many times have you heard that something you mailed didn't show up?  It happens...are you content to knowing you mailed it but that it may not have been received?  Whether you vote by mail or in person, you should always check your vote if possible.  In WI, it's possible.  

      •  I must be an idyut. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Nomi Rene

        It absolutely never occurred to me to see if my vote has been listed.  I never knew you could check.  In these days of repug cheats, you better believe I'll find out how to do it in PA!

        Also, I wonder if it's the newly registered voters they may not be counting.  They would be less likely to be aware of the process.

        Cats are better than therapy, and I'm a therapist.

        by Smoh on Tue Jul 17, 2012 at 05:23:42 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Not an "idyut"! (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          chimene, Oh Mary Oh, glorificus

          Until last year - when the crazy antics of the far right kicked in - I was very much a passive and pretty "basic" voter.  I voted party-line and never bothered with the issues.  Walker woke me up, so I started looking more closely at various aspects of politics, though not necessarily questioning the integrity of our elections.  But when the Prosser/Kloppenburg Supreme Court election fiasco happened, I started looking EXTREMELY closely at elections...starting with live reports and ending with making sure my vote was eventually posted.  So, don't feel bad - it took a truly life-changing event for me to truly wake up and get involved; it takes different things for different people to start moving in the direction I'm going in.  If this is it for you, GREAT!  Go check your votes!  

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