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What a terrible sad desperate day. And I am so sorry for all of those caught up in the madness of James E. Holmes, the young man in custody for the rampage in Aurora, Colorado.

As though these murders in the Century 16 movie theater isn't enough, the vampires are already looking for soft spots to exploit.

It appears that the unholy have assigned Sarasota PI Bill Warner the task of swift-boating the OWS movement, asserting (without any facts) that the Aurora shooter is an Occupy Wall Street (OWS) Black Bloc member.

As far as I know and from everything I've read, OWS completely disavows the Black Bloc, its tactics and methods. And, at this point, there is absolutely nothing that connects the shooter to either OWS or those who engage in Black Bloc tactics. But lack of evidence or facts isn't stopping the rush to post Warner's allegations as facts.

This makes my skin crawl. We need to be cool, respond correctly. We can't allow this kind of posturing to divide us any more than we already are.

This just makes my skin crawl.

This tells me all I need to know about Mr. Warner:

Private Detective Bill Warner is a member of the FBI Partner InfraGard and has worked as a Confidential Informant (CI) for Immigration Customs Enforcement (ICE) and the U.S. Secret Service on smuggled stolen cars scam and money laundering cases.
I guess we ought to be getting ready for the onslaught. How do we disarm this?

No time even to grieve??? No time to just be part of America and mourn for these people? wow.

Originally posted to pfiore8 on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 11:39 AM PDT.

Also republished by Occupy Wall Street.

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Comment Preferences

  •  So far this just appears to be RW making shit up (14+ / 0-)

    Not that -that's- ever happened before.

    "If I can't dance, I don't want to be part of your revolution." - Emma Goldman

    by CamillesDad1 on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 11:43:36 AM PDT

    •  and my cousin in Tennessee is going to buy it (8+ / 0-)

      hook line and sinker.

      this is my fear.

      •  I understand your frustration, but (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        pfiore8, sb

        maybe try reminding him that not everything is about politics, and sometimes murderers commit murders for non political reasons.  Anyone remember Ted Bundy? (yeah, serial killer, not mass murderer, but a non-political killer who killed just because he felt like it).
        This guy may be connected to black bloc, or he may have been influenced by Rush, or he may just be an old fashioned mass murderer who pays no attention to politics, but shot 71 people because it seemed like the thing to do at the time.
        Try to remind your cousin that at the moment, our focus should be on the victims and how to help them, no matter what our political stripes, not promoting divisiveness by jumping to blame politics, and that when motives emerge, we'll deal with them then.

        "On their backs were vermiculate patterns that were maps of the world in its becoming. Maps...of a thing which could not be put back. Not be made right again."

        by middleagedhousewife on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 12:13:47 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  bad example (5+ / 0-)

          Bundy was very involved with politics:

          :" Bundy joined Governor Daniel J. Evans's reelection campaign.[43] Posing as a college student, he shadowed Evans's opponent, former governor Albert Rosellini, recording his stump speeches for analysis by Evans's team.[44][45] After Evans's reelection he was hired as an assistant to Ross Davis, Chairman of the Washington State Republican Party. Davis thought well of Bundy, describing him as "smart, aggressive ... and a believer in the system"

          fact does not require fiction for balance (proudly a DFH)

          by mollyd on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 12:39:08 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Title is a bit confusing, imho. (6+ / 0-)

        Because it says the shooter is Black Bloc. Maybe re-word, just to be clear?

        To quote another kossak,

        "The man in custody for allegedly killing 12 people at the screening of the latest Batman movie in Aurora, Colorado told authorities after the shooting that he "was The Joker," NYPD police commissioner Ray Kelly said today.

        Kelly told reporters the suspect, identified by federal officials as 24-year-old James Holmes, had dyed his hair like The Joker. The Joker is a well-known villain in the fictional Batman universe. The attack took place at a screening of "The Dark Knight Rises," the final movie in a Batman trilogy, following "The Dark Knight" in which The Joker was the principal villain.

        Two federal law enforcement officials confirmed the details of The Joker costume to ABC News.


        "When the powerless are shut out of the media, we will make the media irrelevant" ~♥~ Anonymous ~♥~

        by Lisa Lockwood on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 01:14:33 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Rush Manson sent this man to the theater (3+ / 1-)

    here's his bla bla bla that was the call of fire in a crowded theater

    . . . from Julie, Julia. "Oh, well. Boo-hoo. Now what?"

    by 88kathy on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 11:44:21 AM PDT

  •  This will probably extend to (5+ / 0-)

    disenfranchising voters who are accused of any connection to OWS, Black Bloc or no.  Paint 'em all wiht the same brush, and let G-d sort 'em out.  Meanwhile, no vote for you!  Oh, and you're under arrest.

    Torture is Wrong! We live near W so you don't have to. Send love.

    by tom 47 on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 11:49:04 AM PDT

    •  I find that extremely IMprobable. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      pfiore8

      There is absolutely no mechanism in American law that would permit that, and no way any such attempt would pass court muster.

      Let's wait until all the facts are in, rather than engaging in hyperbolic and unnecessary predictions that go about 20 steps beyond even the speculatives.

      "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." --Dom Helder Camara, archbishop of Recife

      by JamesGG on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 11:58:05 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  OWS is not connected to Black Bloc (3+ / 0-)

      At OWS events, the Black Bloc were no more welcome, and even less productive, than the Oakland Police Dept. Showing up on the same corner during the same afternoon doesn't mean they're on the same side.

      That won't keep some from trying to connect them in the court of public opinion, though. ALEC-inspired lawyers may even find ways to restrict rights for those expressing unpopular messages, or those presumed to associate with criminals. It could come in confiscation of drivers' licenses, removing the most convenient but not the only way to identify oneself at the polls. It could come with broader definitions of felony by association. It could be that authorities or partisan enforcers would merely intimidate minorities and poor people from coming near the polls.

      None of the obvious methods would not stand legal challenge, but they could be timed to stay in place just long enough to get through an election.

      Why is there a Confederate Flag flying in Afghanistan?

      by chimpy on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 12:19:16 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  In Portland (7+ / 0-)

        Black bloc groups of various types (no, these are not all the same just because they wear black) have been a welcome part of the Occupy gatherings. Violence toward people is not accepted, but simply wearing black, and sometimes black bandanas over one's face, is tolerated here. Black bloc is a tactic in which a group of people all wear the same black color as an identifying marker. Such groups are not always out to vandalize property, and most do not engage in violence toward people. I've seen many black bloc groups in Portland protests, all of which peacefully marched in large numbers with the rest of us.

        By the way, the majority of anarchists (anarcho-socialists) today do not engage in violence towards people, nor do they engage in violence towards property, as a rule.

        "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act". -George Orwell

        by ZhenRen on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 12:43:38 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Need to address that branding problem somehow (0+ / 0-)

          Peaceful protesters in one city sharing a "uniform" with violent opportunists in another will not help get their message heard.

          Why is there a Confederate Flag flying in Afghanistan?

          by chimpy on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 01:38:35 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Hmmm (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            AoT, chimpy, joanneleon

            So, if a bunch of kids wear nikes and throw rocks at starbucks, we shouldn't wear nikes? What if they decide to wear blue? Blue is then forever off limits?

            Good grief. Where does this stop?

            The negative branding is deliberate. It will continue. It is best not to cooperate by repeating these false comparisons.

            Let's see: A Muslim engages in terrorism, so all Islamists are bad?

            A Christian kills a physician who performs abortions, so all Christians are evil?

            No, you don't get to broad-brush people just to suit false memes.

            Just stop.

            "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act". -George Orwell

            by ZhenRen on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 01:45:37 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I'm not the one with the broad brush (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              ZhenRen, AoT

              But, we'd all do well to see how it gets used. A useful method of both staying anonymous and identifying with a cause has been coopted. Some have adopted it as cover for their own opportunistic vandalism, sharing neither your cause nor your rules of engagement.

              Neither the methods nor the look has to be abandoned, but taking them back from the recreational vandals and the media servants of the status quo won't be easy. Of course the media's conflation of the groups is deliberate branding. Money controls way too much of the messages that most people have access to.

              Just like other groups had to fight their treatment in the media, so will you. Seeing only the Oakland events, I had no idea that Portland or anywhere else had anything else. Now I know, but that's only because of your comments here. Many others won't have read this, so work remains to be done.

              Why is there a Confederate Flag flying in Afghanistan?

              by chimpy on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 02:00:45 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Zhen, this is silly (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              AoT, pfiore8

              You're not talking about an arbitrary coincidence when talking about folks in the Black Bloc dressing in a uniformed fashion.  You're talking about a conscious, tactical choice. It is the intentional adoption of a collective identity for specific purposes. You've pointed this out yourself.

              To turn about and attempt to equate this to the general category of fashion statements is evident absurdity. Complaining when others recognize this distinction is nonsensical. It makes you appear both self serving and less than coherent.  

              Nothing human is alien to me.

              by WB Reeves on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 02:42:19 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Same mask can mean different things (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                pfiore8, WB Reeves

                Unfortunately around Oakland, it means unprincipled destruction, and we're poorly served by the association. Elsewhere it might mean anything, and those against us in the media will take full advantage of any links they can make against our cause.

                Why is there a Confederate Flag flying in Afghanistan?

                by chimpy on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 03:23:42 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Nonsense (0+ / 0-)

                Let's say a group I am part of makes a conscious choice to wear tie-dyed tee-shirts. Let's say another group does the same, and breaks a window at a Starbucks.

                Sorry, but I'm going to continue supporting the right of my group to keep wearing those shirts, despite the actions of other groups.

                Pretty simple concept. I believe in tolerance. I'm not going to fold over every time some hack tries to paint everyone with the broad brush of intolerance, because it will never stop once they get you on the run. Don't give them power. Once they see how easy it is to manipulate people, they will keep doing in ever new and insidious ways.

                Look at the Democratic party bending over backwards to out-drone the Republicans, for example.  Can't let them brand Dems with the "weak on security" meme, so what do Dems do? Instead of staking out a position and standing firm, they simply cede ground and become more and more like Republicans.

                No thanks.

                Oh, and please don't send me any more kosmails. I deleted the last one without reading it.

                "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act". -George Orwell

                by ZhenRen on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 03:27:43 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Well, we can all agree that black blocks can't be (0+ / 0-)

                  smeared...they're already so slimy.

                •  Even sillier (0+ / 0-)
                  Oh, and please don't send me any more kosmails. I deleted the last one without reading it.
                  That speaks volumes.

                  Not much point in attempting discussion with the willfully ignorant. They're usually not interested in much beyond self gratification and are willing to sacrifice anyone and anything to that end.

                  Nothing human is alien to me.

                  by WB Reeves on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 09:09:41 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Nonsense (0+ / 0-)

                    You were one who, in our last encounter, kept coming back again and again with the last word. Or more accurately, the last barb, one last ad hominem, one last strawman, but no genuine reply. I let it go, but then you sent me a kosmail, after so many other empty responses. Why should I have bothered to read one more insult, on and on, never really ending? And it seems, once again, you're here, responding. Have at it. But don't clutter my kosmail with insults.

                    Twist away, but my point stands.

                    "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act". -George Orwell

                    by ZhenRen on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 09:47:15 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Why are you bringing in a previous, (0+ / 0-)

                      unrelated thread? More to the point, why bother to respond at all? You've made it plain you're not interested in a dialogue.

                      You say it's because I insulted you? It would be interesting to know what you consider an insult. Evidently something I said was such a trauma that you felt it necessary to delete my Kosmail without reading it and then advertize the fact on this thread. Those actions and such rationalizations pretty much speak for themselves.

                      There's really no point in going on in this vein.

                         

                      Nothing human is alien to me.

                      by WB Reeves on Sat Jul 21, 2012 at 12:42:29 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

              •  Worse than a set of identical clothing (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                AoT

                are the labels people wrap themselves in.

                Some call themselves progressives. Some of those who call themselves progressives support all sorts of awful policies that other progressives would never support.

                While I question whether or not all who use the label fit the description, people are free, of course, to call themselves whatever they like.

                So, should progressives run from the label because it is possibly tainted by a few others? Keep doing that and we'll run out of terms to describe ourselves.

                It's a choice everyone must make.

                As for me, I'm not sure I can call myself a Dem anymore. So there you are... It's a choice.

                "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act". -George Orwell

                by ZhenRen on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 03:40:26 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

  •  ABC is reporting shooter said he was (12+ / 0-)

    "The Joker"

    The man in custody for allegedly killing 12 people at the screening of the latest Batman movie in Aurora, Colorado told authorities after the shooting that he "was The Joker," NYPD police commissioner Ray Kelly said today.

    Kelly told reporters the suspect, identified by federal officials as 24-year-old James Holmes, had dyed his hair like The Joker. The Joker is a well-known villain in the fictional Batman universe. The attack took place at a screening of "The Dark Knight Rises," the final movie in a Batman trilogy, following "The Dark Knight" in which The Joker was the principal villain.

    Two federal law enforcement officials confirmed the details of The Joker costume to ABC News. Police said the weapons used in the massacre include a military-style AR-15 assault rifle, a shotgun and two handguns.

    http://abcnews.go.com/...

    which will not fit in with r-wig efforts to write a different script.

    "If we ever needed to vote we sure do need to vote now". Rev. William Barber, If you're in a coalition and you're comfortable, you know it's not a broad enough coalition" Bernice Johnson Reagon

    by Denise Oliver Velez on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 11:59:21 AM PDT

  •  I found this... (7+ / 0-)
    ...Then came Conservative radio talker Laura Ingraham. She gave ample air time this morning to a Florida private investigator who claims the theater shooting bears the fingerprints of left-wing terrorism.

    Sarasota private investigator Bill Warner told Ingraham that suspect Holmes fits the profile “to a t” of a member of the Black Bloc – a little known group of violent, black-clad and gas mask-wearing anarchists who piggy-back on the non-violent Occupy movement during anti-Wall Street protests.

    “I guess Laura saw my work on this matter and called me to be on the air,” said Warner, who works on insurance fraud and cheating spouses by day. “There’s no public information available on James Holmes anywhere. No car, no credit card, no nothing. I checked. Black Bloc members use cash and don’t buy cars so that they can go underground.

    “(Holmes’) age, the black clothes and gas mask he was wearing, the facts he is white and underground, the facts he is a drifter prone to over-the-top violence, it all fits. Batman features an Occupy-type bad guy and this nut job may have taken it personally.”

    So it sounds like speculation....some are running with it being factual - like the PI found something out - he's just speculating.

    Here's the link

    The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only legitimate object of good government. - Thomas Jefferson

    by ctexrep on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 12:14:17 PM PDT

    •  It's full of misinformation, too. (11+ / 0-)
      There’s no public information available on James Holmes anywhere. No car, no credit card, no nothing. I checked.
      His car was in the parking lot at the theater.  He has parents; they've been contacted and are reportedly trying to help.
      See TPM
      Oates also described the weapons allegedly fired by the suspect, James Eagan Holmes. Holmes was arrested in his car, a white Hyundai parked just outside the theater, just moments after the first calls were made to 911.
      “(Holmes’) age, the black clothes and gas mask he was wearing, the facts he is white and underground, the facts he is a drifter prone to over-the-top violence, it all fits.
      He was neither underground, nor a drifter.  He was a (failing) graduate student and had an apartment.

      Laura Ingraham is an idiot with rotten egg on her face for this nonsense.

      "On their backs were vermiculate patterns that were maps of the world in its becoming. Maps...of a thing which could not be put back. Not be made right again."

      by middleagedhousewife on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 12:21:48 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  What a load (10+ / 0-)

      of crap.

      Sarasota private investigator Bill Warner told Ingraham that suspect Holmes fits the profile “to a t” of a member of the Black Bloc
      He's got nothing. Right-wing is just trying to jump out there and say it must be a left-wing person before everyone starts speculating about how it is a gun toting right-wing terrorist.

      This is ridiculous.


      "Justice is a commodity"

      by joanneleon on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 12:28:01 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  There is no blac bloc membership (8+ / 0-)

    in the sense of an organization to join. "Black bloc" is a tactic, not a monolithic group.  And for some, the tactic merely consists of wearing black at protests.

    This topic is completely misunderstood by most who comment about it.

    "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act". -George Orwell

    by ZhenRen on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 12:16:58 PM PDT

    •  this isn't about FACTS... (6+ / 0-)

      this is about associating liberals/progressives to what happened in Aurora.

      •  Really? (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ZhenRen, Lisa Lockwood, Agathena

        Well there are no facts involved in this accusation. None at all.  So why are you helping this PI in Florida with his fact-free assertions?  


        "Justice is a commodity"

        by joanneleon on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 12:42:44 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  facts are not compelling. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          AoT

          or haven't you figured that out yet? people don't care one damned bit about facts or truth, as you or i would package them.

          people act on what THEY believe to be true or to be facts, thus Jesus walked with the dinosaurs.

          i didn't figure you for this kind of reaction, Joanne.

          •  What you are doing here (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            ZhenRen

            is irresponsible and I will call it out whether it is being done by a friend or not.  If you could just get off your stubborn high horse for a minute, maybe you would realize what we are trying to tell you, pfiore.

            We are talking past each other and it's clear that you are not listening to people in the comments.   It also appears that you are letting your bias and some level of ignorance about black bloc influence your decisions.  I don't go for the tactics that black bloc members who are best known for smashing windows use either, pfiore, but what you are doing here still isn't fair.

            We don't disagree on the issue of the asshole in florida, we disagree on the framing and title you are using here and the fact that you claim that you love OWS but what you are doing is damaging them, imho, and helping to spread the same bullshit information that the florida PI and Laura Ingraham are.

            I am willing to bet that hundreds of people now believe this guy is black bloc and/or OWS now.


            "Justice is a commodity"

            by joanneleon on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 02:29:33 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  And this diary (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ZhenRen, Agathena

      imho, just makes it worse.

      This detective has got absolutely NO information on this guy that says he is a black bloc member.  Nothing. It's pure speculation and he admits it.

      I'm really disappointed in the diarist who is now helping publicize this totally fabricated association with OWS.


      "Justice is a commodity"

      by joanneleon on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 12:30:11 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I agree Joanne. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        AoT, Agathena, joanneleon

        The diarist makes no attempt to diffuse the meme that "black bloc" participants (who can't be accurately broad-brushed as a monolithic group) are as evil as the right wing would make them out to be.

        It isn't just the smear of associating the gunman with OWS that is atrocious, but also of associating the murder of people with black bloc tactics.

        The small minority of people who dress as a black bloc and also engage in damaging property do not use violence against people. That difference needs to be made clear.

        They don't go into theaters and shoot people. If they engage in violence at all, they direct their angst towards corporate property. Since they don't believe in authoritarianism, they tend not to be violent towards people, which is a tendency commonly seen in the assertion of authority. Thus, both socialists who advocate state socialism and capitalists (both democrats and republicans) tend to be far more pro-war and pro-violence (as authorized by the state) on very large scales, whereas anarchists eschew this sort of violence.

        This topic needs to be fleshed out far more on dkos. People simply are misinformed, and they know next to nothing about anarchism.

        "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act". -George Orwell

        by ZhenRen on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 01:23:38 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  this diary isn't about diffusing (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          chimpy

          or defending black bloc tactics. i am not a fan, btw. but i do love the OWS movement.

          i was looking for some more info on Holmes and found this guy Warner asserting this crap about the shooter. i found it alarming.

          it is instructive to understand how the Warner's of America think and how they use information. if we start defending the black bloc, we lose. let's not play this wrong.

          •  How many hundreds of people (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            AoT, ZhenRen

            who never bothered to open the diary now think that the shooter is a member of the black bloc?  A member of OWS?

            That's on you, pfiore.

            It's a totally irresponsible diary title.

            The diary itself is not particularly helpful either.  You need to clarify  -- people have given you entire quotes in the comments here showing that this self-important PI in Florida was making assumptions based on bad information -- fancies himself some kind of profiler, I guess.  He made these statements based on almost nothing.

            Another commenter gives you yet another excerpt showing that the nypd and fed officials have confirmed that the shooter believed he was the Joker.

            The commenters gave you excerpts and links and you never bothered to update the diary to give readers a clearer picture, and you continue to leave that horrible title in place.

            It's damaging and for no good reason.


            "Justice is a commodity"

            by joanneleon on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 01:45:51 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  the title of the diary (0+ / 0-)

              says what i think the diary represents: swift-boating OWS by alleging some connection between Holmes and the "OWS' black bloc." of course there is no OWS black bloc as far as i know.

              as for your assertions, i thought it was pretty obvious that Warner was making a case out of thin air... but I did update the diary to make it clearer.  honestly, i was just just shocked when i saw this stuff and assumed everyone would think as I did when they saw it: the "unholy" want to vilify the OWS and the progressive movement using Holmes as poster boy...

              while i should have made the diary clearer, your responses didn't help. in fact, they are alienating and knee jerk.

              it's what is wrong with us. smiting the bad guys... or people in some faction on our side of the line.

              re read your comments and ask yourself: is it helpful?

          •  Let's defend truth (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            AoT, joanneleon

            And the truth is far from how black bloc is portrayed in this diary, or the American media.

            "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act". -George Orwell

            by ZhenRen on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 01:48:15 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  The black bloc is not just broken windows (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            ZhenRen, joanneleon, chimpy

            and we do need to defend the black bloc.  Or at least not spread the same false information that the media puts out about them.

            There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

            by AoT on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 01:48:40 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Defending the black bloc? (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            AoT, ZhenRen

            Where is the proof that this guy is even a member of the black bloc?

            wtf does this have to do with anything?

            if we start defending the black bloc, we lose. let's not play this wrong.
            ZhenRhen, I think the best thing to do is to write a responsible response diary. This diarist thinks it's okay to falsely smear a class of people because she doesn't agree with their tactics.

            I don't agree with most of what they do either, but that totally misses the point here. Whoosh.

            Ugh.


            "Justice is a commodity"

            by joanneleon on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 01:49:42 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Some of the original organizers (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            AoT, joanneleon, chimpy

            of OWS were anarchists.

            Graeber, for example. And Graeber has participated in black bloc tactics. He wasn't violent toward people or property, but he did join in some of the other tactics.

            And he is a respected voice of the left.

            "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act". -George Orwell

            by ZhenRen on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 02:00:10 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Actually, I think he has said that he did (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              ZhenRen, chimpy

              participate in property destruction at one point.  Although I may be misremembering that.  He did say he hadn't participated in violence under a definition that excludes property destruction.

              There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

              by AoT on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 02:17:20 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  You may be right... (0+ / 0-)

                As I recall, he didn't, but I may not remember correctly.

                "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act". -George Orwell

                by ZhenRen on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 02:21:51 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  One person's personal history does not define OWS (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                AoT, pfiore8

                The OWS meetings and demonstrations assumed certain rules of government within their own community, and rules of engagement with the broader community. The movement developed other rules and habits as they matured, but non-violent confrontation was always demanded of everyone.

                Whatever someone's own past, what must be weighed in the judgment of OWS is the conduct of its people during its occupations.

                Why is there a Confederate Flag flying in Afghanistan?

                by chimpy on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 07:17:56 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I agree that what David Graeber (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  chimpy

                  Has or has not done in the past has no bearing on what OWS is now. I just felt it was important to note that factual inaccuracy. Or the possible factual inaccuracy.

                  There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

                  by AoT on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 07:24:58 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

  •  pfiore (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Agathena, ZhenRen

    you are just making this worse giving this guy more publicity with his completely, totally fabricated association of the shooter to OWS.

    Gah.


    "Justice is a commodity"

    by joanneleon on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 12:31:23 PM PDT

  •  Does it matter? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    pfiore8, NoMoreLies

    1. Black bloc is -- almost by definition -- testosterone fueled young idiots.  Those are the people who, soon or late, do stupid evil shit.  OWS has made it very clear they can fuck off.  There's no connecting rhetoric, ala "operation rescue" -- nobody in the mainstream of the movement is making big public calls for stupid evil shit.

    2. Whether true in this case or not, this won't go away over time, provided inequality continues to increase and disconent along with it.  Discontented young men of the left and right will move along a path from mild radicalization to stupid and evil, as they have for millenia.  The voice of power and mainstream received wisdom will continue to smear the intermediate levels of radicalization with the final violent outcome.

    But maybe your current home, with its love for order and a basically workable scheme, is a source of (tentative) hope.  If you don't have extremes of inequality and built in violence (on a daily scale which makes 12 dead an asterisk) then, y'know, shit like this hardly ever happens.  Directly, or more often indirectly, systemic violence engenders individual violence.  The catch is that people have toi make the connection, to get that devaluation of human life isn't something you can contain to the brown people, the people over there, the people who are poor.  Which is a much easier connection to make in a place which has endured two world wars and their economic consequences than in the American heartland.

    ...j'ai découvert que tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos dans une chambre.

    by jessical on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 01:04:29 PM PDT

    •  this isn't about the Black Bloc, but about (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      jessical, Just Bob, chimpy

      the assertion of Warner that somehow the liberals via OWS (and the pretend connection to Black Bloc) have provoked this guy Holmes into this horrible action.

      it is guilt by association...

      perhaps a better title is "swift boating progressives" and using this mournful sad day to do it.

      •  well... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        pfiore8, chimpy

        ...I was going for the larger issue, but starting from the specific.  As things get worse, the opprotunities for such swift boating will just multiply.  Nasty places make for nasty heads.  But eventually people get it, and can distinguish the issues from the hotheads.

        But in this case, I don't think it will get much traction.  First, for the reason cited -- making this about whether he ever attended a black bloc meeting is unlikely to stick to OWS or by extension progressives.  And second, because it's "too soon" per Joan Rivers -- making political hay today is going to make everyone a bit sick.  In a week, sure, Limbaugh and company will be trying with everything they have.  I don't think there are many people remaining on the margins to be convinced, though -- America seems (to me) to have chosen up sides and hardened considerably.

        ...j'ai découvert que tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos dans une chambre.

        by jessical on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 01:21:32 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  PS hi hon! Good to see you! (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        pfiore8

        Did you see my dolphin video with the babies?

        ...j'ai découvert que tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos dans une chambre.

        by jessical on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 01:22:19 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Yes, it does matter (4+ / 0-)

      First and foremost because it perpetuates the sort of false understanding of what the black bloc is that your post shows.

      1. Black bloc is -- almost by definition -- testosterone fueled young idiots.  Those are the people who, soon or late, do stupid evil shit.  OWS has made it very clear they can fuck off.  There's no connecting rhetoric, ala "operation rescue" -- nobody in the mainstream of the movement is making big public calls for stupid evil shit.
      It's fueled by political outrage.  Yes, the majority of the people who participate in black bloc actions are young, but they aren't all "testosterone filled."  Most of them are thoroughly outraged by the violence inflicted upon people across the globe by our system.  OWS has not at all made very clear they can "fuck off," not at all.  

      The idea that everyone who participates in a black bloc action is somehow sliding down a slippery slope to murdering people is absolutely wrong.  Completely wrong.

      2. Whether true in this case or not, this won't go away over time, provided inequality continues to increase and disconent along with it.  Discontented young men of the left and right will move along a path from mild radicalization to stupid and evil, as they have for millenia.  The voice of power and mainstream received wisdom will continue to smear the intermediate levels of radicalization with the final violent outcome.
      I do agree with you here.  Except that the right is already well down this path whereas I'm not aware of any leftist groups who have killed anyone in the last ten to twenty years in the US.

      There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

      by AoT on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 01:25:07 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  That's not what I said (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        AoT, pfiore8

        Radicalization -- political radicalization -- is always going to have a few people going down the slippery slope to murder, especially in a place where things suck.  If your rhetoric is about breaking things, you're going to attract the people who go that way.  Most are going to be fueled by the highest ideals, but some will be broken.  The very vast majority will just be spirited, not terribly thoughtful, and very young.  

        And it will be on the left and the right.  The shape of your ideals is not a protection against what poverty and isolation and lack of mental health services do to individuals.

        Sorry I'm not your straw man today.  I do despise the black bloc, and nothing you say changes my mind remotely.  But I did not say participation in that group was different from any other bunch of angry discontents.  And eh, in my neighborhood, it is 95 percent young men.  In my not humble opinion, they break shit poor people use to feel, for a few hours, powerful.  Fuck 'em.  Mileage varies.

        ...j'ai découvert que tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos dans une chambre.

        by jessical on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 01:32:02 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  You said: (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          jessical, ZhenRen

          Black bloc is -- almost by definition -- testosterone fueled young idiots.That's demonstrably wrong.  I don't know where you are but in every place I've seen a black bloc that is simply not true.  If you mean just the people breaking windows then I think you are closer the the truth, but still not quite there.  

          The black bloc is far more than broken windows.  It's a tactic used for protection from police far more than for breaking things.  That's why OWS hasn't made it clear that black bloc can fuck off.  There are some conflicting opinions about the tactic.  

          If your rhetoric is about breaking things, you're going to attract the people who go that way.
          Black bloc is not fueled by rhetoric about breaking things, in fact all of the most successful black bloc actions have not involved property damage at all.  I'd point to Seattle in 1999.  Not the people in the shopping district breaking things, but instead the people blockading the convention center, the ones who got the meeting shut down.

          There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

          by AoT on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 01:45:13 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Those were direct action protestors (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Grabber by the Heel

            They were not "black bloc".  Though I'm sure there were people who identified as such (and also people who did not).  

            Pretty much all the shit up here on Cap Hill has involved breaking things, lately.  Y'all have broken shit at places I go by.  The neighborhood was not improved, and I am not safer, as a trans woman, from the police.  There are more cops.  They are more aggressive.  Way to go!   Meh.

            The young people who I have met who identify black bloc are for the most part idealistic and angry.  Testosterone?  Well, yes, that's my attribution.  I think they are young fools.  I don't hold them any more responsible than any other set of young fools, at the end of the day.  But they don't seem to be about protecting themselves so much as acting out.  They get to put on masks and wear black and go home.  I get to go by those same crazy ass cops as a trans woman every day.  Agree or not, maybe you can see why I'm not feeling the love.  If you want to protect us from the police, how about providing escorts?  

            You're right that there are conflicting opinions.  But there is a very strong set of voices in OWS -- see Starhawk and the trainer's group -- condemning the whole long embraced "diversity of tactics" thing.   A good chunk of our folks have voted for nonviolence.  You can shut down a convention center that way.  A lot of the people who worked to that end did so nonviolently, and I am proud to know some of those people.  

             I've now ranted entirely enough about this in peef's comments (you can now come back and righteously condemn me -- I'll be at workout, have fun).  

            ...j'ai découvert que tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos dans une chambre.

            by jessical on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 02:03:42 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  They were black bloc (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Lady Libertine, ZhenRen

              They wore all black and covered their faces to prevent being identified for their individual actions by the police.

              The young people who I have met who identify black bloc are for the most part idealistic and angry.  Testosterone?  Well, yes, that's my attribution.  I think they are young fools.  I don't hold them any more responsible than any other set of young fools, at the end of the day.  But they don't seem to be about protecting themselves so much as acting out.  They get to put on masks and wear black and go home.  I get to go by those same crazy ass cops as a trans woman every day.  Agree or not, maybe you can see why I'm not feeling the love.  If you want to protect us from the police, how about providing escorts?
              I can see why you would have a problem with the black bloc given your experiences.  Mine differ greatly.  I have seen the black bloc escort marches and protect protesters from the police numerous times.  In Oakland it isn't a matter of just taking of a mask and going home.  There are trans people and women and people of color who take part in black bloc actions.  I've seen them prevent the police from brutalizing people.

              I really do get what you're saying about radicalization and violence, and I don't disagree.  There are going to be angry people that want to go out and kill people to get their point across, but they obviously don't need the black bloc to do that, they've been doing that for years.  Look at the right wing, they don't have anything like the black bloc and they manage to kill people in political violence pretty much every year.

              There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

              by AoT on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 02:14:55 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Protect people form the police? black blocheads (0+ / 0-)

                have gotten innocent people, at what were supposed to be peaceful protests, beaten up all over the country, and they certainly got people beaten up in Seattle.

                The sit in that closed down the wto meeting was Direct Action and peaceful. The cops broke the peace on Clinton's insistance. But throwing piss and bottles at the police form behind the street blockades got lots peaceful innocents knocked around by enraged cops. Thanks black block!

                But I'm ashamed to be having this tired conversation with you anarco-assholes in a post about a mass murderer of innocents. We don't know what people will come to know or believe about the shooter. And this includes the diarist.

                We should shut up and listen unless we have a fact or can comfort somebody. And this includes me.  

                A six year old is shot dead.  

                •  You're so ashamed that you manage to tell (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  ZhenRen

                  me how ashamed you are at the very end of the comment instead of just not posting or just saying that.  Strikes me as a bit insincere.

                  There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

                  by AoT on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 05:20:22 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Done for now and you can go break a window. (0+ / 0-)
                    •  Ignorance on parade (0+ / 0-)

                      And the sad part is so many people are marching right along.

                      Don't you see a problem with the fact that your view of the black bloc is exactly the same as the media at large? Can you think of another group that the media accurately portrays? I can't. If you agree with the media you're probably wrong.

                      There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

                      by AoT on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 07:01:08 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

            •  Starhawk (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              jessical

              is an anarchist. She doesn't support violence, and nor do I and most anarchists. She's a friend of Graeber's, by the way, who has participated, to some degree, in thoughtful, planned, black bloc actions.

              "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act". -George Orwell

              by ZhenRen on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 05:28:55 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  You keep referrring to... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          AoT, joanneleon

          THE black bloc. There is no singular, monolithic entity called black bloc. Isn't a group, it is a tactic used by groups. People wear black as a symbol of solidarity, for anonymity, and to confuse police.

          The people who use these tactics tend to be anarchists (which doesn't mean what you likely think it means).

          Most anarchists are not prone to violence towards people. They do believe, generally, in defending themselves from authoritarian use of force against them. As a political group, they are against the violence that has been used by most other political groups in the last 100 years.

          So, the irony is that anarchists are far less prone to supporting violence than your average center-left liberal who supports every drone action waged by Obama and the various wars initiated by democratic presidents over the last several decades.

          "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act". -George Orwell

          by ZhenRen on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 02:20:25 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  OWS hasn't made it clear at all. But there is no (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Grabber by the Heel

      point discussing OWS now.

  •  Fuck this speculation (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    AoT, Grabber by the Heel

    You could have posted this tomorrow..there is little difference between you and the crazy on the right..
    Give us ONE GODDAMN DAY HERE IN DENVER TO SOAK THIS IN
     or discuss this on your fucking facebook..

    My son-in-law was an RN at Aurora south ER, one of the hospitals where they brought the wounded..he thought he had left this behind after being a medic in Iraq.. We have friends whose kids saw the movie but at another theater...

    Give us one day..ok?

  •  Why spread RW gossip? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    joanneleon, CamillesDad1

    This should be in quotes "Aurora gunman is Black Bloc member" since Warner said it and you offer no proof that it is true.

    ❧To thine ownself be true

    by Agathena on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 01:31:42 PM PDT

  •  Fixed the tags so Black Bloc is spelled correctly (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    pfiore8

    There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

    by AoT on Fri Jul 20, 2012 at 02:38:54 PM PDT

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