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I've got a number of non-liberal friends and acquaintances through various venues, most of them on my Facebook page. Today, one of them (whose politics I'm not actually sure of) posted a graphic that had this text on it.


This was overlain on a many-colored peace sign.

Well... okay, I can see the appeal of that. It has a "can't we all just get along?" feeling to it, and it probably makes some folks feel reassured.


I can't agree with it as worded. There are things that I do insist my friends agree with me on, or I will have to consider them not my friends. My partner struggles with the fact that I really don't like people whose opinions are not liberal. He continues to tell me "They have the right to their opinion!"

And yes, they do. They have the right to their opinion. They have the right to express their opinion and they even have the right to act on their opinion.

However, I do have limits. I do have hard limits and I do have deal-breakers. And when someone holds an opinion that says gays are bad, liberals are scum, or atheists are [fill in your nasty thought about atheism here], I do feel that hard-limit bell ringing. And if they indicate that they buy Chick-fil-A food or plan to vote for Romney, that's a deal-breaker for me. Because, you see, I have the right to have an opinion too - both about their opinions, and about the person holding those opinions.

Come past the fleur-de-Kos, if you will.

You see, this past week, I've had one person who is liberal and GLBT-supporting try very hard to create a thought experiment where his purchase of waffle fries and chicken nuggets from CFA did not mean he was responsible for what CFA did with their money afterwards. Another person defended CFA for their humanitarian response when a tornado flattened a down (providing free food). The first person made me angry; the second person is clearly missing the point.

The author Conor Gaughan demonstrates the points I want to make to these two people pretty well in his recent Huffington Post article: We Are Not Arguing Over Chicken. He ties it very well to the violence that has occurred in Oklahoma, Kentucky, and Nebraska (and probably other places) just this past week. It's not about what Chick-fil-A's done with their food, or what their food is, or anything like that. It's about what they do with the proceeds. And some of what they do with the proceeds is, frankly, evil. It harms GLBT people, to the tune of $5 million bucks of harm. That's not minor. That shouldn't be overlooked.

So, no. I don't have to agree with your opinions in order to like you. But I have to qualify that statement, because when your disagreement leads to harming me (through votes for things that take away my rights, like Prop 8, for example), or supporting organizations that harm me (like when you buy chicken sandwiches and waffle fries from Chick-fil-A), I will find it exceedingly difficult to like or respect you any more.

You see, I'm a liberal gay atheist, not a doormat. There are, in fact, times when I have to say "your opinions make me angry, and from what you've said about those opinions, I know you'll act on them, so I can't trust you any more. That means I can't like you any more. And your opinions also make me see you as a bigot, a homophobe, a racist, a sexist, and/or completely ignorant and uninformed about what's really going on. And that means I can't respect you."

And if you insist, while knowing that CFA donated five million dollars to anti-gay causes, that your waffle fries and chicken sandwich are more important than my civil rights, well, then I know that my friendship is not a priority for you. So I'll thank you to understand that your friendship then can't be a priority for me, either.

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  •  Tip Jar (290+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ubertar, Anne was here, MsGrin, Miss Blue, bkamr, markdd, mama jo, ardyess, myrealname, grannycarol, Karl Rover, marleycat, yuriwho, Dave in Northridge, nomandates, kerflooey, KibbutzAmiad, Fresno, Cali Scribe, psilocynic, JeffW, old wobbly, shann, blueoasis, hungrycoyote, Lilyvt, rogerdaddy, Liberal Thinking, marykk, sjburnman, NJpeach, second gen, radical simplicity, Texknight, linkage, Horace Boothroyd III, jk2003, Thinking Fella, indycam, Reel Woman, 88kathy, GeorgeXVIII, SoCaliana, remembrance, dRefractor, BlueMississippi, addikell, Xapulin, Maverick80229, Pluto, freeport beach PA, Cedwyn, mofembot, JanetT in MD, dougymi, coolbreeze, dewley notid, Hastur, mike101, oldliberal, aznavy, PBnJ, Farkletoo, Chitown Charlie, Ian S, Canis Aureus, glitterlust, Delilah, deha, quill, CherryTheTart, Lisa Lockwood, Spirit Dancer, fuzzyguy, DBunn, howabout, Alice Venturi, CatM, Therapy, juca, We Won, azrefugee, dejavu, JVolvo, VTCC73, eru, thomask, yawnimawke, turn blue, Kingsmeg, Tamar, greengemini, prfb, fiddlingnero, Steveningen, Empower Ink, sabo33, Glen The Plumber, Davui, pimutant, kestrel9000, Militarytracy, bluestatedem84, tgypsy, blue jersey mom, bnasley, splashy, Jeff Y, outragedinSF, NonnyO, Arenosa, Youffraita, Statusquomustgo, sagesource, uciguy30, Matt Z, smrichmond, Charles CurtisStanley, WaryLiberal, bluesheep, MartyM, Carol in San Antonio, Pat K California, dmhlt 66, riverlover, Australian2, JimWilson, dkmich, mamamorgaine, shortgirl, artisan, Jeffersonian Democrat, petulans, lotlizard, commonmass, SaraBeth, coppercelt, YaNevaNo, DRo, elmo, tomephil, emmasnacker, Pandoras Box, BigVegan, verdeo, JTinDC, BlackBandFedora, tobendaro, Dobber, VexingEyes, 4Freedom, bilge, grumpelstillchen, Smoh, Bourbaki, badscience, kathny, sb, Liberal Mole, Calfacon, most peculiar mama, Its a New Day, celdd, annrose, shades at midnite, yellow cosmic seed, Old Woman, Kristina40, gloriana, Bob Friend, gwilson, moose67, Brooke In Seattle, janmtairy, Dirtandiron, zukesgirl64, reginahny, where4art, lurkyloo, Kinak, One Pissed Off Liberal, nellgwen, mjfgates, Rooe, juliesie, US Blues, wilderness voice, anodnhajo, mamamedusa, WinSmith, CS in AZ, NanaoKnows, snazzzybird, pat bunny, Mistral Wind, zerelda, Matilda, just another vet, dsb, Sylv, tapestry, opinionated, jparnell, allergywoman, Only Needs a Beat, TX Dem 50, carver, jayden, StellaRay, Heart of the Rockies, musing85, gizmo59, chicagobleu, IndieGuy, luckydog, BlackSheep1, la urracca, Ice Blue, StrayCat, 417els, CJB, Subterranean, Polly Syllabic, fou, UtahLibrul, davidincleveland, Friend of the court, ConfusedSkyes, maxcat06, Nebraskablue, Texdude50, DEMonrat ankle biter, Tinfoil Hat, WI Deadhead, Sychotic1, awsdirector, jakewaters, Chirons apprentice, chira2, Angie in WA State, Eric Twocents, HappyinNM, rapala, tin woodswoman, NapaJulie, shaharazade, bleeding blue, Lefty Coaster, slouchsock, OhioNatureMom, TrueBlueMajority, rgjdmls, Turbonerd, raincrow, sngmama, Debs2, PinHole, mkfarkus, haremoor, OleHippieChick, Wreck Smurfy, stevenwag, TiaRachel, BC Progressive, FlyingToaster, VA Breeze, AaronInSanDiego, psnyder, EdSF, Catte Nappe, slowbutsure, asterkitty, Alexandra Lynch, PhilW, Lily O Lady, Robynhood too, Oaktown Girl, multilee, joanbrooker, a2nite, Alumbrados, GenXangster, Tool, 6ZONite, radarlady, I teach music, RagingGurrl, schnecke21, ladybug53, Ginny in CO

    Science can tell you how to clone a dinosaur. Humanities explains why this is a bad idea.

    by Killer of Sacred Cows on Sat Jul 28, 2012 at 07:16:29 PM PDT

  •  Anthony Bourdain (22+ / 0-)

    That quote originated with Anthony Bourdain, writer and chef, in the context of his visiting many different cultural groups all over the world.  He was welcomed into the homes and gathering places of many many people.  As a student of food, he was educated by these people.  Some of them were culturally different than himself, and they sometimes had customs and practices that he did not agree with.  But he truly did like them and and respected them.

    I see nothing wrong with that. It's not easy to do...and it is called (by me) "unconditional love."

  •  What a terrible world it would be if everybody (6+ / 0-)

    thought exactly as I do - no joke intended.  

    You don't need to firebomb Dresden to prove that you can fly the plane.

    by SpamNunn on Sat Jul 28, 2012 at 07:40:32 PM PDT

  •  I think your last paragraph captured the situation (79+ / 0-)

    best for me.

    And if you insist, while knowing that CFA donated five million dollars to anti-gay causes, that your waffle fries and chicken sandwich are more important than my civil rights, well, then I know that my friendship is not a priority for you. So I'll thank you to understand that your friendship then can't be a priority for me, either.
    As an older heterosexual, Christian woman, it was a no brainer.  How could I possibly be interested in a chicken sandwich with limp pickles on top more than my brothers and sisters who are being denied their civil rights?  

    I'd probably more than just a bit mift too if my familys' integrity was being threatened and a friend of mine whined, "But I like waffle fries!"

    FWIW  Our family is no longer a patron of Chick-for-Bigotry.  

    Plutocracy (noun) Greek ploutokratia, from ploutos wealth; 1) government by the wealthy; 2) 21st c. U.S.A.; 3) 22nd c. The World

    by bkamr on Sat Jul 28, 2012 at 07:43:09 PM PDT

  •  Chik Fil A Is A Restaurant..... (45+ / 0-)

    Restaurants need 3 things: quality food, good service & customers.

    If you want customers, don't pontificate.  

    Not all publicity is good publicity.  This is bad publicity.  I don't even have a Chik Fil A in my state, but if I'm ever near one in California, I'll avoid it like the plague because the owner felt compelled to share his nasty values w/ me.  

  •  I have one friend who is a diehard republican (18+ / 0-)

    who hates liberals with a passion.

    Strange thing is I'm sure he a lot like a closeted gay guy. Only he's not gay (that I know of, or suspect). Through his actions as a person, he has consistently shown himself to be someone that goes out of his way to help others, often to his own detriment. He displays all the characteristics I associate with liberals except when discussing politics.

    He was brought up in a hardcore republican household with a smattering of military service but I think he has inherited most of his political views from family member he idolizes (probably for good reason.....their actions). I think he is unable to see reality through his Rose coloured glasses. I expect him him to convert during his sixties when he closely examines the wealth gap.

    BTW, I relentlessly mock his political views to his face when we discuss politics. He never gets angry at me because he knows I'd go out of my way to help him at anytime. As do I.

    You could be listening to Netroots Radio. "We are but temporary visitors on this planet. The microbes own this place" <- Me

    by yuriwho on Sat Jul 28, 2012 at 07:44:59 PM PDT

  •  Very well said. (45+ / 0-)

    I've had to 'justify' not wanting to associate with not only those who were considered friends, but family members also.

    And by justify, I mean being asked, "Well, why can't you just agree to disagree and keep politics out of it?"

    And my answer was similar to yours.

    Because this is more than politics.  I don't think I could make small talk with someone who thinks our president is a foreign Muslim.  I'm not going to make nice with someone who believes gays should be shunned by society (or rehabilitated).  I cannot be civil to someone who wants to take away women's rights to their own body.

    I will not be quiet anymore.  

    I love this:

    You see, I'm a liberal gay atheist, not a doormat.
    Very well said, indeed.

    Growing old is inevitable...Growing up is purely optional

    by grannycarol on Sat Jul 28, 2012 at 07:47:49 PM PDT

  •  Without wanting to get into an overly (8+ / 0-)

    rambunctious discussion here, I would like to say that I think that the comment for the most part is somewhat appealing, especially if from someone who is - non-liberal.

    Considering that there are many of those rethugs with the scorched-earth, take-no-prisoners, and it's-our-way-or-no-way meme, this is actually refreshing in a way......

    Yet, I do agree with you that it is up to you as to where to draw the line.  And I also agree with where you do draw the line.  

    And just lastly to add that maybe there is another way to approach this though, is that if someone you wouldn't want to bother with is in some way reaching out to you, there just might be an opportunity to change a mind and heart.  Not so easy and rarely done, but maybe best just to keep that in that thought somewhere among your thoughts.

    All the best.....

  •  Chik Fil A (26+ / 0-)

    has a problem with everyone who doesn't agree with their conservative christian values.

    They are closed on Sundays so their employees can attend church with their families.

    What about Jews? Why aren't they closed on Fridays? What about Jehovah's Witnesses? Why aren't they closed on Saturdays? etc. Any business that deliberately states they don't want to do business with me on a particular day because of religious beliefs (and I'm not talking about holidays, which is another sore topic) has proven to me they don't want my business.

    I have never eaten at Chick Fil A because they are closed on Sundays. Their bigotry gives me another reason to avoid them like the plague they are.

    I reject your reality and substitute my own - Adam Savage

    by woolibaar on Sat Jul 28, 2012 at 07:49:32 PM PDT

  •  "more important than my civil rights" (11+ / 0-)

    EXACTLY!  I'm finding that a lot of discussions here reduce to that (and I have a diary on one of them coming up tomorrow afternoon). It's really crucial to our issues.

    -7.75, -8.10; All it takes is security in your own civil rights to make you complacent.

    by Dave in Northridge on Sat Jul 28, 2012 at 07:54:56 PM PDT

  •  maybe you should apply (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ConfusedSkyes, raincrow

    the opposite test.

    The opposite of that would be
    personally i hope there are many more people who accept the first one than the secong one.

    of course a less interesting opposite would be

  •  Hmm. (11+ / 0-)

    While I see your point, I have several friends (very good friends) who go to Chik-fil-A at least once per week. And they sometimes do so with me in the car.

    It pisses me off. It totally pisses me off. But that's mine to have and, if they want to support Chik-fil-A, there's really nothing I can do to stop them. I don't like it, but it's not mine to control.

    These friends are apolitical and very keen on not knowing what's what. While they like and respect me, they seem to know that I have little respect for the choice they make to eat at Chik-fil-A, right in front of me no less.

    I figure that it's their shit, not mine.

    But they're still my friends, and they will continue to be me friends, bar none. If I judged my friends by where they shop, or how they spend their money in general, it's very likely that I'd have no friends left. :)

    Logic will break your heart forever. Be brave. -- The Stills

    by Colorado is the Shiznit on Sat Jul 28, 2012 at 08:03:26 PM PDT

  •  I have two thresholds that can't be crossed: (30+ / 0-)

    (1) You can't do deliberate harm to or wish deliberate harm to come to any sector of the public because of their values, political beliefs, or lifestyle.

    (2) You can't try to "convert" me to conservatism and/or insult my "liberalism" (a term that I detest).

    Anyone that violates (1) gets nothing from me. No love, no time, no shirt off my back. I work against them and believe that it is unethical for me to associate with them.

    Anyone that violates (2) is just too damned irritating and a waste of my time. It's not a real friendship if someone can't respect my views.

    Unfortunately, nearly all of my immediate family and friends have crossed threshold (2) in recent years. Most of the people that I grew up with have become "born agains" in one way or another. In each case, once they crossed that line, they became relentless. Each interaction had to end up being about me defending myself and making political or ethical arguments. Each interaction seemed to end with statements about praying for me. They ceased to be people; the hobbies that we used to chat about, the news stores going on in the world, the experiences that we'd share, the tales about our daily lives—gone. Everything was wrapped in the flag, Hannity/Beck/Limbaugh, or evangelicalism of various stripes. There was nothing more to gain from interacting with them, for either of us, because they couldn't just be people together with me any longer; they had to be a part of the army of God vs. my "unsavedness" until I was brought into the fold. There could be nothing else; it's like it was a sin to talk to me about doing laundry or the price of groceries before first ensuring that I was "saved" both politically and spiritually.

    Of course in each case when I drew a line and ultimately cut off interactions once they'd crossed it repeatedly, they wrote me off as a "bigot" against Christians and against conservatives.

    In truth, if I had that tendency, they'd have done more to create that bigotry than anything any "liberal" or "atheist" influence could have done to create it.

    But I don't have that tendency. It's sad—I often miss many of them. But whenever I reach out, I get what amount to ultimatums about my ideological and spiritual life that I must fulfill before we can be cordial again.

    I don't have to—and can't—respect that.

    -9.63, 0.00
    I am not a purity troll. I am a purity warrior.

    by nobody at all on Sat Jul 28, 2012 at 08:19:28 PM PDT

  •  I Don't Know (4+ / 0-)

    My objection to Chick-Fil-A is primarily that I can't figure out how to pronounce their name. Is it "chik-fill-uh" or "chik-file-ay"?

    In any case, I've never actually eaten there. I don't have a really good idea what they're like.

    I'm guessing that they serve chicken. In fact, I have it on good authority that they do. Someone on The Young Turks said it, and I believe TYT without question. Typically.

    I don't eat chicken. It's not that I'm a vegetarian, exactly. I do eat fish, which are not vegetables. But, let's say I have a preference. I don't think people should eat animals. There are a lot of complex reasons for that.

    But let's say you are a vegetarian. Does that mean you should shun non-vegetarians? Do they have a right to their food preferences? What about corporations that kill animals and serve them up for food? Should you buy vegetarian items from them?

    I do have a preference when it comes to business. I take into account what they do, especially in the political world. If they passively support the status quo, I'm not entirely hostile. When they actively support politics I don't believe in, that's where I draw the line.

    It appears the unpronounceable company has been actively supporting politics I don't believe in. So, I'm going to continue to not patronize them. But I'm not going to shun all my friends that eat chicken.

    •  Yeah, that's the takeaway. n/t (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Liberal Thinking

      -- We are just regular people informed on issues

      by mike101 on Sat Jul 28, 2012 at 09:07:28 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I see you completely missed the point. (4+ / 0-)

      The point is - do their beliefs and subsequent actions harm me? If so, they are not my friend. End of story.

      Science can tell you how to clone a dinosaur. Humanities explains why this is a bad idea.

      by Killer of Sacred Cows on Sat Jul 28, 2012 at 09:25:15 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  That's About You (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        I don't think we disagree on that point. But what if their actions harm someone else?

        My decision on whether to associate with them depends on what I think of their actions, not on whether I have a distaste for what they say or believe. So, I'm not going to categorically boycott just any company. Also, I don't feel the need to fight every battle. I just spend my money on the things I believe in. That is how I can direct the economy to provide what I want.

        I think there's room for your partner's point of view, but I'm glad you brought up the topic. I think it's worth discussing.

    •  How is that the same? (11+ / 0-)

      How is someone choosing to eat meat the same as someone supporting a company they know promotes discrimination against you?

      I would not be friends with someone who belonged to a country club that did not allow women or minorities to join. I would not be friends with someone who thought it was fine to eat at a restaurant owned by someone who spent weekends at KKK meetings. I would not just shrug my shoulders if I had a friend who had no problem with companies that donate money to those groups that picket funerals with anti-gay signs or protest at the schools of children of doctors who perform abortions. Let alone be friends with someone who holds those views.

      You have a right to eat meat or not eat meat. Someone's choice to eat meat does not interfere with your choice to not east meat. They are not giving money to pass laws that require meatp rducts in the water, for example, to thwart your right to choose not to eat meat.

      But someone supporting a company that gives millions of dollars to prohibit a group of people from exercising their Constitutional rights to marry the only type of person they have a chance of having a successful marriage with and to be happy and live with the same legal rights as every other person is not like choosing to eat meat despite some people thinking it is wrong. (And if I truly thought animals were entitled to the same rights as people, I could not be friends withca non-vegetarian, but I do not beoieve that.)

      A vegetarian being friends with a non-vegetarian is more like a religious person being friends with an atheist. You simply have different personal beliefs about what is right and how you think you should live your life.

      But, for me, being friends with someone who thinks gay people should not have equal rights is no different than being friends with someone who thinks women or black people or poor people are not entitled to equal rights. Few of us would accept that in a friend, and we should not accept anti-gay discrimination in a friend, either. It is not an acceptable moral option that we can just agree to disagree about. There are some things one simply cannot agree to disagree on from an ethical perspective, and full civil rights for all regardless of race, religion, sex, or orientation should be among those things.

      I know if my kid were gay or if I were gay, I would have no tolerance for someone supporting any discrimination against them based on their religious beliefs--which is why I have no tolerance for it now. If it is wrong to treat my kid that way, it is wrong to treat anyone's kid that way.

      We Won't Let Republicans Replace Medicare with GOP Vouchercare!

      by CatM on Sat Jul 28, 2012 at 11:10:30 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  ugh, excuse typos. (3+ / 0-)

        I read it over and fix the typos, but when I post it, several of them show up again. Stupid tablet.

        We Won't Let Republicans Replace Medicare with GOP Vouchercare!

        by CatM on Sat Jul 28, 2012 at 11:12:20 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Okay (0+ / 0-)

        I don't think I disagree with you on most of that. I would point out, however, that if you cut off everyone in your life with any kind of prejudice you might have very few friends. How they are prejudiced varies, but there are very few people that don't have a bias. Most of them just think that their bias is justified. In cutting them off you cut off the dialog, allowing them to continue merrily on with their prejudice and no one to confront them on it.

        Also, your analogy about vegetarians isn't quite right.

        A vegetarian being friends with a non-vegetarian is more like a religious person being friends with an atheist. You simply have different personal beliefs about what is right and how you think you should live your life.
        I think it's a bit more like being friends with someone whose religion includes blood sacrifices, not with atheists. Perhaps I'm being a bit extreme, but it isn't just a bit of personal difference at stake here.

        Bottom line: I think there's a lot of judgment involved in this decision. Demanding total political correctness from all these companies is probably not practical. CFA's obvious anti-gay agenda is just the tip of the iceberg. I applaud the author's activism, but this is a huge quagmire, so I wouldn't get too doctrinaire about it.

        •  It is not just political correctness (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Killer of Sacred Cows

          It really demeans civil rights and equality to treat it as though it is simply being politically correct -- that is, not using the wrong words to avoid offending someone. This is about someone using millions of dollars to promote continued deprivation of others' right to be full and equal citizens.

          I have had friends who said politically incorrect things like, "They tried to Jew me on the price." I expressed why I felt the phrase is offensive and they shouldn't use it, but I did not stop being friends with them.

          And I do not have many friends, in part because I am not silent when people denigrate others and because I do not hide my liberal views. I take no joy in having friends whose views make me sad and angry. But please don't think I would not explain the problem I have with their position and give them an opportunity to change before unfriending them. But if they did not change, I would not enjoy staying friends.

          And please do not think I am minimizing the values of people who so not eat meat because they think it is morally wrong. If someone considers killing animals blood sacrifice othad heinous as killing a person, it is not a view I share so I would fully understand if they did not want to be friends with me. Why would anyone want to be friends with someone they felt was a murderer? If they stayed friends with me, I would draw one of two conclusions: they don't really see animals and people as equal or they don't really have a problem with mass murderers.

          I did live with two wonderful feminist vegetarian women who eventually asked me to move out because I went to Kentucky Fried chicken and would not stop using shampoo they said was tested on animals. And I get it now. I am not a vegetarian, but I will not eat at places that I know do not try to treat the animals they use humanely and I will not buy any product I know is tested on animals and I discourage my kids from dissecting animals in school and I try to eat much less meat than I used to.

          I just don't think it is hard to understand why, if one truly believes gay people not being allowed to marry is a violation of their civil rights one would patronize a business whose profits are used to fund efforts to continue discriminatory policies based on sexual orientation and why that is somehow different from promoting policies based on race. I see them as equally wrong and egregiously wrong. How could I be friends with someone who gives tacit endorsement to the owner's use of his profits by eating there?

          I am not saying we have to research every company and where their money goes before patronizing them (though maybe we should), but if someone is going to announce to the world that they are an active bigot and that if I give them money they are going to use it in unethical ways that hurt people, no way can I pretend I did not hear that and go on eating their chicken, and I can't find it in my heart to empathize with anyone who could. I choose to empathize with the people on the other side of this, who are justifiably hurt that their country does not recognize them as full, equal citizens under the law. Equality for all means more to me than friendships with bigots or apathetics.

          We Won't Let Republicans Replace Medicare with GOP Vouchercare!

          by CatM on Sun Jul 29, 2012 at 09:48:49 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Be Friends (0+ / 0-)

            It's a mystery to me why CFA picked this fight. You'd have to be pretty prejudiced to risk your company to indulge your bigotry. But there we are.

            So, you were thrown out by the feminist vegetarians? I understand the sentiment, but that's a bit extreme. We're going to have to be at least a little tolerant if we're going to survive as a society.

            Thanks for your comments!

      •  CatM, this is an awesome (original definition) (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Killer of Sacred Cows

        The last two paragraphs almost made me tear up. This comment is going to join my list of bookmarked comments by kossaks, that I refer to when I need an inspirational reminder or the perfect refutational quote. Thank you.

        Killer of Sacred Cows, you have once again fully justified your use name with this great and deeply thought-provoking diary. Lest any readers think I write this because I completely agree with you (and I do) I would say the same thing even if I had a criticism or two about your stance on friendship (I don't) because of the way you presented your position.

        For me, one of the hallmarks of a great diary is whether it generates comments that send a shiver up my spine. Cherry the Tart and CatM have both done so. Most heartily T&R.

        Thanks to already-built-in anthropogenic climate change, our planet will only be able to sustain half a billion humans in 2100 AD. Human population will probably reach 9 billion in 2050 AD. Will your descendants be among the 'lucky' one-in-eighteen?

        by davidincleveland on Sun Jul 29, 2012 at 10:11:57 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Thanks, david. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          I appreciate this comment more than I can say. :)

          Science can tell you how to clone a dinosaur. Humanities explains why this is a bad idea.

          by Killer of Sacred Cows on Sun Jul 29, 2012 at 12:27:30 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  In all honesty... (0+ / 0-)

          for all the back and forth, legitimate partisan bickering between being a centrist, moderate or far left liberal as far as this civil rights controversy goes for the LGBT community (and that is what it is), I totally agree with what davidincleveland has succinctly stated as praise to you; everyone in this comment thread has made some salient points to consider and best of all, I think they were (overall) made respectfully towards dissenters.

          I do want to tell you personally though, Killer of Sacred Cows, that I've been a non-denominational Christian for my entire life and want to let you any other liberal non-believers or other religious adherents here that not all of us feel, think , OR act the way these did. I'm very convicted about Jesus and his life teachings, purpose, and his unconditional, absolute love for all humanity no matter what they choose to believe; it hurts me to no end, even as a straight African-American male that's already had his share of outright rejection and discrimination, how these so-called lovers of God could have such contempt and senseless resentment towards their fellow man. I had a really good friend who ominously texted me to eat @ Chick-Fil-A the other day when this was all going down, in the 'name of Christians everywhere,' as if I hadn't heard about all the hell that hadn't broke loose from Cathy's comments (though to be fair, this particular friend is quite sheltered and family-oriented, but this is all besides my ultimate point).

          I am a child of diversity and tolerance and want my fellow Christians and all religious/non-religious adherents to at least accept that they're standing on the wrong side of history by endorsing these views, as were the detractors of women's, blacks, hispanics, asians and disabled rights were and still are. We can't expect all or even most to outright abandon eating Chick-Fil-A or embrace your civil rights as an LGBT person now or in the future, but don't let that make you feel a failure or become unable to compromise, debate and stand up for your value as this minority when working with others, whether it ends up you can be friends should be secondary (believe me that's easier said than done, but inevitably, you'll make many more even as others are walking right out of your life)!

          Know that at least your post, and all the nonsense they've engaged in stirring it up the Faux Schnooze/Evangelical fundamentalist pundits, fat stockers & ditto heads, has convinced this fellow progressive to put Chick-Fil-A in the pen for now. And to be frank about it, I love their food (their nuggets, waffle fries, & lemonade are that best fast food has to offer)!; But I can do without my meals being prepared and served by ideologues who want to impose a well-funded, fascist-like political stances on the rest of us (I'm sure my heart and blood pressure will thank me in my later adult years for taking it easy in the fat & sodium intake from it as well :)). I don't know for sure if I can avoid ever eating there again as they are Texas staple and I do eat out a lot, but I'll try to remember all those humane LGBTQ folks they want to be seen as a body politic cancer when I'm tempted to spend a hard-earned income there...Good luck with it all, and know that things do get better!

    •  Chick-fil-A (long "A") (2+ / 0-)

      was founded as a way to dispose of a large lot of surplus chicken breasts in Georgia (I read something about them in the business section a year or so ago). It's owned by an extremely right-wing fundamentalist family, with the emphasis on "extreme." Their food is nothing special.

      "All governments lie, but disaster lies in wait for countries whose officials smoke the same hashish they give out." --I.F. Stone

      by Alice in Florida on Sun Jul 29, 2012 at 10:49:59 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  It would be hard (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Darmok, Alice in Florida

    for me if everyone had to be liberal then I would probably have no friends in the town where I live.

    They have good reasons for their views just as I have good reasons for mine. We can talk about it without anybody getting overworked.

    I will say that most of my friends are very religion free although I have a few that are very involved in their churches as well.

    In reality our thoughts on things are not that far apart we just don't agree on the way to solve the problems.

    I find alot can sound good until I look at it from the other side, sometimes after listening I realize I need to rethink things a bit.

    It is the heart that makes a man rich. He is rich according to what he is not what he has -Henry Ward Beecher

    by PSWaterspirit on Sat Jul 28, 2012 at 08:22:10 PM PDT

    •  There are no good enough reasons (7+ / 0-)

      for views like:

      Blacks should stay in the ghetto and leave decent white folks alone.

      Or views like:

      Mexicans are just illegal scum who should go back to Mexico.

      Or views like:

      Liberals are destroying this country.

      Or views like:

      Gays shouldn't have the right to get married, because they're disgusting and anyway they can change.

      Or views like:

      Women should obey their husbands and be subservient.

      And if you tolerate any of those views in people who are supposedly your friends, my question to you is why do you have so little self-respect?

      Science can tell you how to clone a dinosaur. Humanities explains why this is a bad idea.

      by Killer of Sacred Cows on Sat Jul 28, 2012 at 09:27:29 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  No views like (0+ / 0-)

        The government should just leave us alone. (They should) they have caused nothing but harm here we do better on our own most of the time.

        We pay to many taxes (property mainly) they are correct on that.  

        But then if you knew a thing about me you would also know that none of what you wrote about above applies to neither me or the town full of republicans I come from. Cheers to you, you sound just like the other side of the narrow minded coin.

        It is the heart that makes a man rich. He is rich according to what he is not what he has -Henry Ward Beecher

        by PSWaterspirit on Thu Aug 02, 2012 at 10:26:53 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Anyone who believes they can live in a society (0+ / 0-)

          without a government regulating what's being done in that society and without taxes is free to move to Somalia and try it.

          I'm not narrow-minded. I'm realistic. Also, I'm against selfishness. And the whole "My taxes are too high!" crap? It's selfishness when it comes from people who have benefited from the infrastructure that was provided by those taxes.

          Science can tell you how to clone a dinosaur. Humanities explains why this is a bad idea.

          by Killer of Sacred Cows on Sat Aug 04, 2012 at 10:38:27 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  To me it comes down to the relationship (8+ / 0-)

    some of my relationships were formed before i became a political person.  before i payed attention to this stuff.  friends from that era of my life get to stay almost no matter what.  however, new people in my life are held to a stricter standard.  i find i just don't have the desire to form bonds with people with whom i can't have an honest, rational conversation.

    We are raised to honor all the wrong explorers and discoverers - thieves planting flags, murderers carrying crosses. Let us at last praise the colonizers of dreams. - Peter S. Beagle

    by jk2003 on Sat Jul 28, 2012 at 08:24:14 PM PDT

  •  You certainly are entitled to your own personal (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    approach though its it tad to close to those on the far right for my cup of tea.

    I'd rather engage minds and open individuals up to the fact that actions matter...and I have quite a bit of success in that regard.

    My personal thoughts and the way I live my life would probably not put me on your "Not friends" list but I think your approach to your fellow man would put you on mine.

    Wonders are many, but none so wonderful as man.

    by Morgan Sandlin on Sat Jul 28, 2012 at 08:26:20 PM PDT

    •  Then that's your problem. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      allergywoman, davidincleveland

      I have standards for my friends. They include: don't stab me in the back or tell me you're my friend to my face while doing things that will harm me.

      After a while, you get tired of trying to engage the closedminded. I've reached that limit, and now I'm drawing some boundaries. Those who violate my rights, either actively or passively, are not my friends, no matter how else I might be connected to them or enjoy their company. They are not worth my time, my liking, or my respect.

      Science can tell you how to clone a dinosaur. Humanities explains why this is a bad idea.

      by Killer of Sacred Cows on Sat Jul 28, 2012 at 09:29:02 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  KoSC...we all have "standards".... (3+ / 0-)

        Yours I simply believe to be a tad self-limiting.

        Without being too cutting (because I truly do understand the sense of frustration and rage that has caused you to take this approach...its not a bizarre approach in any means) whilst you are staying within your cocoon of like-minded individuals others of us will be out there working to change minds and expand thinking so that as a nation we can evolve.

        ...and I have no problem with that :)

        Wonders are many, but none so wonderful as man.

        by Morgan Sandlin on Sat Jul 28, 2012 at 09:38:43 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Thank you. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          I even tried to be Malcolm X for a while. Then I got so tired of the bullshit and the fake smiles and the lying and the backstabbing that I said "hell with this."

          If a person wants to hold a Stone Age opinion, that's fine - but I'll continue to view him as an ape until he evolves.

          Science can tell you how to clone a dinosaur. Humanities explains why this is a bad idea.

          by Killer of Sacred Cows on Sat Jul 28, 2012 at 09:41:48 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Chick-fil-A is not a church. It is a business, (0+ / 0-)

    which needs customers giving it money to stay open. You don't want to give them your money, don't. If other people do, it's their choice.

    Who are you to decide what people eat?

    And I think any business that DONATES food after a disaster is a positive force in the universe.

    Why do you, KoSC, think LBGT folk should just be admired and accepted by everyone?

    Jeez, women, who make up much more of the population than LBGT deal with misogyny all the fucking time.

    Some people like liver, I think it's disgusting. Should I be able to stop people from eating liver?

    I wish Xe, aka Blackwater would go out of business. Do you think Xe provides more value than CFA?

    Again, who are you to decide these things for others? Sounds suspiciously like Pat Buchanan deciding how people should live.

    And no, I don't eat at CFA. I prefer curly fries to waffle fries.

    You can pick your friends. Not everyone needs to know your standards.

    This is, of course, the difference between republicans and human beings. - Captain Frogbert

    by glorificus on Sat Jul 28, 2012 at 08:30:30 PM PDT

    •  Wait a sec.... (25+ / 0-)

      As a straight individual I can tell you my objection to Chik Fil A (or however you spell the darn name) IS NOT that the owner feels that his faith leads him to believe that a marriage is between a man and a woman.

      If that is truly what is in his heart...fine.

      My problem is that he is using monies generated by this company to try to force his religious beliefs upon the rest of us and make them part of our governing rules.

      That he seeks to diminish the rights of others simply because his "faith" says it is so is where I draw the line.

      Wonders are many, but none so wonderful as man.

      by Morgan Sandlin on Sat Jul 28, 2012 at 08:35:47 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I'm not happy about the Iraq invasion or the (0+ / 0-)

        drones killing kids in Afghanistan.

        Should I be able to pay only part of my taxes?

        You don't support CFA's homophobia, don't patronize them. And in fact, you can say why.

        btw, many men's 'faith' tells them women are lesser beings. How supportive are you of battered women's shelters?

        Why do LGBT think everyone should just love them right off the bat?

        No other minority gets a free pass.

        Time will tell how many people really want CFA to stay open.

        Kind of like strip clubs, eh?

        This is, of course, the difference between republicans and human beings. - Captain Frogbert

        by glorificus on Sat Jul 28, 2012 at 08:52:08 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I have been getting something like Glorificus (5+ / 0-)

        argument all over facebook and this is what I say.

        If a business was just a business I wouldn't have a problem, but because $$$ = Free Speech and my $$ are funding the free speech of a company that is inimical to civil rights I cannot in good conscience spend a dime there.

        "I watch Fox News for my comedy, and Comedy Central for my news." - Facebook Group

        by Sychotic1 on Sun Jul 29, 2012 at 09:49:14 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  This is what I'm getting at. Yes, Dan Cathy is (0+ / 0-)

          open and visible about his feelings towards equality.

          However, how many other companies use THEIR money (paid to them by us, the consumer) to lobby for policies contrary to the 99%? I think there's more than 2.

          I feel the animus towards CFA is overblown because while they are one clear target, there are many others out there that manage to keep their mouths shut.

          And the business of America to a large extent is business. Dwight Eisenhower was supposed to have said, "What's good for General Motors is good for the country."

          Well, we've seen that tested. Anyone besides Mitt still want to see the car companies fail?

          Are there enough jobs at Arby's, Wendy's, MacDonald's, Jack in the Box, Walmart, Target, etc. to absorb the laid-off CFAers? Besides the counterstaff, there are marketers and accountants and construction workers and lawyers.

          It's a job.

          No, Dan Cathy is a poor excuse for a human being imo. And a truly shitty excuse for a Christian.

          However, if he is putting out a product people like, that is legal, just like marriage equality in Iowa.

          Don't like it, don't eat there. Tell your friends, picket.

          Let the free market work.

          This is, of course, the difference between republicans and human beings. - Captain Frogbert

          by glorificus on Sun Jul 29, 2012 at 12:54:41 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I don't buy at more than two places (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Killer of Sacred Cows

            but I am one of those people that tries to vote my dollars as much as humanly possible.  Avoiding Koch products - Check, don't shop at Wal*Mart - Check, Don't watch Fox or CNN - Check, Buy Local and at the farmer's market - Check, Look for the American made label - check.

            If more people took voting with their dollars more seriously, then companies would have to take us more seriously.  

            "I watch Fox News for my comedy, and Comedy Central for my news." - Facebook Group

            by Sychotic1 on Sun Jul 29, 2012 at 01:13:19 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  And how am I not doing exactly that? (0+ / 0-)

            Saying don't like it and don't eat there, and tell your friends?

            What is your beef with me? That I've set standards for friendship that include not paying money to places that actively and vocally work against my rights?

            Science can tell you how to clone a dinosaur. Humanities explains why this is a bad idea.

            by Killer of Sacred Cows on Sun Jul 29, 2012 at 02:02:44 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  And a gay woman (0+ / 0-)
      Jeez, women, who make up much more of the population than LBGT deal with misogyny all the fucking time.
      gets the misogyny and the gay hate .

      "Drop the name-calling." Meteor Blades 2/4/11

      by indycam on Sat Jul 28, 2012 at 09:00:53 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Keep them from eating it? (11+ / 0-)


      But telling them "if you eat there, I'll have far less respect for you because of where that money goes once the owner gets hold of it"?


      Science can tell you how to clone a dinosaur. Humanities explains why this is a bad idea.

      by Killer of Sacred Cows on Sat Jul 28, 2012 at 09:29:35 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Also... (12+ / 0-)

      "Why do you, KoSC, think LBGT folk should just be admired and accepted by everyone?"

      Because we're human beings and we deserve respect. Just as women do. Just as people of color do. Just as the disabled do.

      So yes, I think we can and should demand acceptance. Not admiration, but definitely acceptance. And if that means telling people "In order to enjoy the pleasure of my company, and my fabulous dinner parties, and my fantastic martinis, you have to agree that you will evolve your goddamn opinions out of the Stone Age and into the 21st century," I don't think that's too much to demand, frankly.

      Science can tell you how to clone a dinosaur. Humanities explains why this is a bad idea.

      by Killer of Sacred Cows on Sat Jul 28, 2012 at 09:31:27 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  a few thoughts (7+ / 0-)

      A don't think anyone who takes issue with CFA's activities is trying to "decide what people eat" so much as educate them on where their money is going and the values it is supporting. If someone is OK with that, fine. I think the point of the diary is that I, or KoSC, or whoever, is not required to somehow "respect" them for that. And re: donating food, I don't think positive action in one area gives them a pass to be destructive in another.

      Why do you, KoSC, think LBGT folk should just be admired and accepted by everyone?

      Jeez, women, who make up much more of the population than LBGT deal with misogyny all the fucking time.

      I'm really not sure what to make of this. Where does KoSC (or any LGBT activist ever) say that LGBT people should necessarily be "admired"? And why wouldn't or shouldn't LGBT people strive to be accepted by everyone? The way you frame this here, and downthread ("No other minority gets a free pass"?), is troubling and you seem to be making some pretty negative assumptions about LGBT people and the gay rights movement in general.
      •  All of this discussion reminds me of the (7+ / 0-)

        movie where a man was a brilliant nuclear physicist involved in the Manhatten project. He had just one teensy weensy flaw : He liked to torture and kill women... And those who were his watchers helped cover up for him because they thought he was more valueable then the women....When interviewed many of the people who knew him, especially the men who were never his target for his tastes ... thought he was a good guy....

        Which now reminds me how many people defend and defended my stepfathers pedophilia because he was a good guy. Joe Paterno, Sandusky, priests... people defend the undefensible (in my mind) all the time. Rape, murder, abuse, denying people basic human rights all have thier apologists and defenders. Embedding ones own beliefs in law through using money people pay your business taints that business in my book... TO ignore what they are using your money for is 'in kind'.

        Too much of that going on right now with the Billionaire boy club trying to take us back  to when they could pollute, strip mine, kill strikers, work employees in unsafe conditions that either kill them or shorten thier lives...In order to have lots of friends and lots of stuff you really like you either give them your money and or you allow them the right to buy elections to force you to follow thier beliefs and submit to thier greed.

        I am polite to people but I don't want friends so bad I will tolerate anything...My neighbor is a wing nut who I laugh at when he expresses his loony tunes opinions but we frequently help each other out and carp about the lady across the street who has 6 foot tall thistles that we are forever pulling its babies out of our yards...

        My son was a wingnut but he is slowly regaining his sanity... Life is showing him how bad some of the rationales were. But I do not allow him to talk politics any more. I merely roll my eyes and laugh, saying " you believe that?". That ends the discussion within minutes. I used to argue with him and we both ended up angry. Family politics led to much of that anger and hurt.  But frerinds are rare and treasured because I can trust them not to harm me or try to remake me in thier image for thier own inadequacies of ego. I would rather have one good friend then 50 who stab me in the back and harm me knowingly fo rthier own weird reasons.

        How can you tell when Rmoney is lying? His lips are moving. Fear is the Mind Killer

        by boophus on Sun Jul 29, 2012 at 08:31:10 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  hey boophus - who was this scientist (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Killer of Sacred Cows

          I looked it up and can't find anything.

          "Kossacks are held to a higher standard. Like Hebrew National hot dogs." - blueaardvark

          by louisev on Sun Jul 29, 2012 at 09:32:30 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  It was a movie. I think it was Mullholland Drive (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Killer of Sacred Cows

            THe talk made me think of it and how often we let people who have power and influence skate... How often we look the other way when we like or need something they are giving us.

            How can you tell when Rmoney is lying? His lips are moving. Fear is the Mind Killer

            by boophus on Sun Jul 29, 2012 at 01:01:18 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I was wrong about the title. I just looked it (0+ / 0-)

              up... Dang I saw it years ago and now can't remember the title. Its going to drive me nuts. THe only Mulhooland Drive I can find is David Lynxhes which I didn't really care for. I am trying to remember if it was in the 80s. Was a very disturbing film and idea. Though I have read many cases where people have either value to those in power or lots of money protecting them so they can do horrible things.  Maybe the vidtims were left on Mulholland????

              How can you tell when Rmoney is lying? His lips are moving. Fear is the Mind Killer

              by boophus on Sun Jul 29, 2012 at 03:47:29 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  in other words, it was made up (0+ / 0-)

                I don't think this is factual, boophus.  "Mulholland Drive" is fictional.

                "Kossacks are held to a higher standard. Like Hebrew National hot dogs." - blueaardvark

                by louisev on Mon Jul 30, 2012 at 05:02:20 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I did say it was a movie. Where did you get the (0+ / 0-)

                  idea I said it was factual. I merely said that the discussion brought it to mind as a story that showed a possible extension of the idea of letting people get away with actions following thier belief system that harm others. Sorry if my writing did not make that clear. I apologize... I was not stigmatizing scientists. I myself spent most of my working life in labs and my degrees are all in math & science.

                  Of course if is fiction just like Matrix which raises some interesting concepts. Isn't that what good fiction or movies do? Provide a coherent line from an action to a result...I like story tellers that have a message like the parables or Aesops fables. Surely you don't think that powerful people don't get away with things. It has been going on for a long time in the black community. Black youth are imprisoned for crimes that white youth get thier hands slapped for. Women are punished more severely for killing husbands then men who kill them. Several cases I have read highlight this. It is almost like women as a group commit less violent crimes so society wants to severely punish any who step out of line...

                  There are people by virtue of what they deliver to a power group get allowed sins. So this fictionalized story showed what the worst outcome might be if we don't watch how easily we let select groups not face the same censure of punishment as others.

                  How can you tell when Rmoney is lying? His lips are moving. Fear is the Mind Killer

                  by boophus on Mon Jul 30, 2012 at 09:17:43 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

    •  I don't approach things exactly as the diarist (9+ / 0-)

      does (though I agree with a lot of the points) but if what you got out of this diary was a desire to dictate others' choices, then you really miss the point. And I'm being generous here.

      liberal bias = failure to validate or sufficiently flatter the conservative narrative on any given subject

      by RockyMtnLib on Sat Jul 28, 2012 at 11:24:00 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  You are probably unaware of the tax deduction (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Killer of Sacred Cows

      Chick Fil A received for this,

      And I think any business that DONATES food after a disaster is a positive force in the universe.
      and you're perhaps unaware of the free advertising businesses receive when they make such tax-deductable "donations" during televised disasters. A positive force in the universe would donate without fanfare and wouldn't ask us taxpayers to subsidize their "generosity." Such a positive force would also donate routinely to food banks and wouldn't seek to profit from the donations by trumpeting them on TV or taking a tax deduction for them.

      For the rest of your comment and your other comments here, dissing KoSC and LGBT protesters, may I refer you to Kos' stricture against "being a dick in someone else's diary?" You have clearly violated that rule in each of your comments.

      Thanks to already-built-in anthropogenic climate change, our planet will only be able to sustain half a billion humans in 2100 AD. Human population will probably reach 9 billion in 2050 AD. Will your descendants be among the 'lucky' one-in-eighteen?

      by davidincleveland on Sun Jul 29, 2012 at 10:43:57 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Reminds me of a great song by (14+ / 0-)

    "They Might be Giants": Your Racist Friend

    This is where the party ends;
    I can't go on listening to you
    and your racist friend...

    I know politics bores you,
    but I can't go on listening to you
    and your racist friend..."

    And so on. Good stuff. And there's only so much a person should be willing to take before telling people, "I can't go there, and if you want to, you do it without me, 'cause I won't give you the appearance of support or legitimacy".

    And you're right-- there's this weird notion that has taken root that being a liberal means being a doormat. Nuh-uh.  

  •  I agree. Very reasonable. (6+ / 0-)

    I've always been very selective about choosing friends who share my outlook on life without being rude or any more obvious about it than necessary.  I live in the reddest of states in a less populated area and I've never had difficulty with meeting and getting to know others who are similar enough to form varying degrees of good relationships.  Relatives are another matter in some cases but that's manageable also.

    There's enough diversity in a liberal outlook on life for friends to have lively and interesting discussions, challenging and amusing one another.  Of course, there are times when one has to interact with conservatives or wingnuts and how that occurs depends upon the person and situation, but I can't imagine why I would want to form friendships with them or they with me.

    But then part of the problem is that the word friend has lots of shades of meaning which is why it needs to be so often qualified and is difficult to discuss except in generalities.

    99%er. 100% opposed to fundamentalist/neoconservative/neoliberal oligarchs.

    by blueoasis on Sat Jul 28, 2012 at 08:59:57 PM PDT

  •  I trusted people who should not have been , (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Killer of Sacred Cows

    they taught me to not trust , I go back to trusting and then I get burnt .

    "Drop the name-calling." Meteor Blades 2/4/11

    by indycam on Sat Jul 28, 2012 at 09:03:57 PM PDT

  •  I find it incredible (29+ / 0-)

    that a lot of pundits and cable news people were suggesting liberals were always calling for tolerance over their views on marriage but that their Chik fil A response shows they are not tolerant of how/others define marriage.  Seriously? Not tolerating someone's intolerance of others' rights is intolerance?

    Fine, then I am intolerant! I do not tolerate white supremacists' views on how marriage should not be between a white person and a black person. The problem with the cable news ninnies' approach is that comes from the perspective that whether gay people should be allowed to marry is just a matter of opinion. Yet I bet none of them would defend someone who didn't want interracial marriage to be legal -- quite the opposite. They would say, "That is ridiculous. Of course race should not be a factor in marriage laws and anyone who thinks so is bigoted."

    Yes! That is the point. Of course sexual preference should not be a factor in marriage laws and anyone who thinks so is bigoted, and I do not need to hear these supposedly objective news hosts chastise me for not tolerating bigotry.

    We are not talking about people boycotting Chik Fil A because the man is a Christian. It is because he contributes his profits to perpetuating continued discrimination against a group of Americans. It is because I do not feel like helping him make the payments on his private yacht when he is advocating for others to be treated like second class citizens because he is a bigot.

    I am so sick of the news people acting like the fact that some people claim the Bible is anti-homosexual makes it a valid, equal "viewpoint." People have used the Bible to support racism, slavery, and sexism, too, but most don't present that as an equal "view" worthy of respect and tolerance.

    So, I do not think the world is a better place if we all agree to live happily with others despite their support of laws and actions that deprive people of their rights to life, liberty, and pursuit of hapiness. I am sorry but I do not respect people who have those views. They are ignorant, intolerant assholes who do not deserve respect. I would rather go out and make new friends who I can stand proudly next to in protest of my former bigoted friends who discriminate against gay people, deride the poor and their suffering, believe in torture and religious discrimination, and call the president the N word.

    Fuck those people. I'd be ashamed to call them friends or family. The more people that refuse to tolerant those people, the more quickly their numbers will shrink as they realize how unacceptable their views are in a society ever more supportive of equality.

    We Won't Let Republicans Replace Medicare with GOP Vouchercare!

    by CatM on Sat Jul 28, 2012 at 09:14:26 PM PDT

  •  Another thought experiment: Jeff Bezos just made (3+ / 0-)

    significant contrmarriageable the fight for marriage equality, something I strongly support. But I have avoided Amazon for years because of their appalling business practices - the way they treat workers; their evasion of sales taxes (starving states and giving them an unfair price advantage over brick and mortar retailers) and their part in destroying independent booksellers.  

    I won't ever patronize CFA, but how much does amazon have to do before it would justify me spending money there?

    •  Amazon is moving on sales tax (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Killer of Sacred Cows, lineatus

      Their new model is if you can't beat 'em, join 'em. They are now creating huge, very high-tech warehouse operations near many urban centers in sales tax states, and are about to offer “same day” delivery as their standard.

      Yes, you'll have to pay the same sales tax you'd pay in a store, but the price will still be lower, and you can have it later in the day, without getting into your car.

      One report I read on this stated that their pitch will be “free same-day delivery” on purchases over some minimum.

      This is a huge gamble on their part, but if they succeed, it's hard to see much of a downside. But I admit that I buy from them already, so you should take my words with a grain of fleur de sel.

  •  My conservative neighbor and I tried (9+ / 0-)

    to be friends for about 6-months.

    We failed.

    We're fucked.

    "All you Obama bashers couldn't post your comments on this website were it not for government funding of the internet. Checkmate!"~Anon

    by Therapy on Sat Jul 28, 2012 at 09:19:39 PM PDT

  •  Excellent diary (11+ / 0-)

    It has been fascinating watching this unfold, particularly on social media, and you hit on several things that have frustrated me as I read people's posts, rants, responses, etc.

    One thing I have noticed in all this is that people seem to be talking past each other on the two primary issues, 1) free speech/conscience and 2) civil rights. On the one hand, you have those defending the higher ups at CFA's right to believe and say whatever they want. As best I can tell, no one who has taken issue with CFA is disputing that right. I'm sure not. It's a privately held company run by individuals who are free to believe whatever they want to believe and to integrate that into their business model if they so choose. However, as is so often the case, those crying "free speech!" see it as a one-way street. "CFA can do whatever they want,  now STFU!"

    As you say, those of us who take issue have the right to express our opinion of their opinion, and that brings me to issue number two. To me, a fellow liberal gay atheist, I consider the actions of CFA's management an existential threat to me, my family, and my community, motivated by a freely chosen philosophy that seems a helluva lot more arbitrary than whatever it is in my biological makeup that makes me happen to fall in love with other men. When I read about that $5 million, I take it personally. It's not a "difference of opinion"; it's CFA going out of their way to hurt people, to make their lives worse, to dehumanize them and take away their civil rights....and for what? "Traditional family values"? That's like saying you're simply supporting traditional omnivore values by working to strip vegans' right to eat, all because your particular cookbook only has recipes for steak. To me, that's just narrow-minded, self-righteous, and cruel, on a very fundamental level.

  •  Politics isn't business, it's personal. (11+ / 0-)

    Politics isn't business, it's personal.

    If I can't respect a person's political views, then I can't respect them. And if I can't respect them, I don't associate with them.

    It's amazing the positive change that has happened in my life ever since I stopped associating with bigots, whether they be old friends or family; I no longer have to fight with them.

    Life's too short to put up with people's hateful bullshit. Spend it with people you can trust to have your best interests in mind, and let the haters hate on someone else.  

    "We see things not as they are, but as we are." - John Milton

    by Jasonhouse on Sat Jul 28, 2012 at 09:55:50 PM PDT

  •  You bow (4+ / 0-)

    to the Buddha within, not to the conserva-fundie-cult-member-spewing-Fox-talking-points exterior shell.  Or, making fun of them is not the best way of getting them to see the error of their ways.

    However, a corporation isn't a person (SCOTUS notwithstanding), I don't have to ever set foot in a Chick-Fil-A.

    190 milliseconds....

    by Kingsmeg on Sat Jul 28, 2012 at 10:07:51 PM PDT

  •  Feel like I could have written this (10+ / 0-)

    Funny, it was via Facebook that I came to feel this way today too.  It was over a placard that featured a sick child obviously suffering from a cancer (no hair) and a slick Mitt Romney leaning against a sports car not wanting to pay taxes.  My husband's best friend from high school made several comments that were startling.  Our son fought for his life against for profit insurance once.  How can you claim to care about my husband and care about my son and fight to have ACA repealed and fight to prevent the rich from returning to sane tax rates and dog me about my beliefs on such a public forum?

    I'm fine with arguing in public, particularly about such subjects, but wow buddy....just show everyone your fucking ass.

    I can't trust my husband's best friend since childhood either.  He will harm my family.  He will harm my child.  He will harm other children too, and feels fully justified in doing so.

    I have been all over the CFA spread of hate too, but I don't think anyone in our small immediate family is gay.  Realize I could always be wrong about that too.  But odd how a winger who does know me and knows of my life circumstances chose a sick children in need vs. the filthy rich issue.  Kind of like they want to kick you in the teeth and smile back at you.  I don't really know what to make of it...sociopaths?

    The hatred and divisiveness is palpable, and I'm so fucking sick of it I'm done playing nice even under my real name now.  I noticed that the Dick must have felt a tiny bit of shame because he has now left a huge post of insanity...blah blah Constitution....blah blah Detroit failed and should have been allowed to fail (he is a resident of Michigan if you can believe that) and finishing up with he hates to lump all dems in the same bucket or something but dems are wrong on some things.

    Really Dick?  The party you cling to cultishly has lost its damned mind so badly that you have all become laughing stocks, and in your frustration you feel the need to pull wings off flies and wish needless suffering on others?  What pathetic sniveling dicks they have all become!

  •  My approach to such "friends" who support (6+ / 0-)

    bigoted politicians, businesses, groups, etc. would be that you tell them (with a shit-eating grin on your face) that  you don't believe for one second they really agree with such bigoted drivel.  This should give them pause.

    They like you; that's why they call you their friend, right? And friends stick up for each other; they don't like it if their friends are denied jobs when they are the best qualified applicant; they are sad and upset if their pals cannot marry the one they love; they will fight for their friends to enjoy the same rights and privileges they enjoy, because that's what friends do.  When their friends are happy, they rejoice with them; when they mourn, they grieve with them.  Friends oppose whatever would harm their friends. Anything less than that - well, they're not really friends.

    If you present such thoughts to them in a friendly way, you might be pleasantly surprised by the reaction you get.  At the very least you will have nudged them to see the inconsistency in their thinking.

  •  If they want laws and policies that harm me (9+ / 0-)

    Or the people I love, for no good reason other than they have "beliefs" that think it's good to harm others, it's a deal breaker.

    You know, like discrimination of any kind. Or trying to take reproductive rights from girls and women, risking their lives by doing so. Or breaking up families because they don't like the fact that the parents are same-sex couples.

    It harms those I love, or myself, or both, and I just can't go there.

    Women create the entire labor force.

    by splashy on Sun Jul 29, 2012 at 12:09:46 AM PDT

  •  Your diary is very thought-provoking and (3+ / 0-)

    I share so many of your sentiments. I personally approach that a little differently.

    About this:

    And if they indicate that they buy Chick-fil-A food or plan to vote for Romney, that's a deal-breaker for me.
    This is understandable. As for me, I found that if I took exactly that tactic, I would be a hermit. I would be estranged from all (and I literally mean ALL) of my family and some longtime friendships would end. I'd even have to serve my wife divorce papers.

    How so? She and her mom shop at Hobby Lobby from time to time. They are not right-wing fundies. They both voted for Obama last time and will do so again. They pretty much agree with me on the issues. I have told my wife that I refuse to step foot in that store and stated exactly why. Hobby Lobby donates large sums of profits to Christian Dominionist causes. I'm straight, but I'm a lefty atheist so I consider those causes an existential threat. Add to that they openly discriminate based on whether you're dominionist enough to their liking.

    My wife and MIL don't have near the passion about political issues that I do, but I'd be hard-pressed to consider them horrible people. They both have been wonderful to me for the 13 years I've known them.

    All of that, though, doesn't mean I have no self-respect or refuse to draw any lines in the sand. I actually blocked a relative of mine from my Facebook page. He's a right-wing lunatic - the "Obama is a secret Muslim whose birth certificate is a forgery and don't send me any links to Snopes because they're liberal" kind of wingnut.  I didn't block him, however, because of his views. It was because he constantly behaved like a troll and in a separate email attacked my brother-in-law (my wife's brother) who he only met once and didn't really know - insinuating that my BIL was out of work for an extended period of time because it "probably reflects something wrong with his character".

    Like you, I will make no effort to befriend someone who I find is a bigot. When it's someone I do know, I deal with that on a case-by-case basis. I know it isn't perfectly consistent but frankly I'm not trying to be 100% consistent. I find that sometimes there are more variables to consider when it comes to how I deal with them.

    And if I considered voting for Romney a deal breaker, I'd have to disown my brother (who happens to be gay but for some reason idolizes Reagan). I don't want to do that. He and I are as tight as can be. He wants nothing to do with birtherism or the secret Muslim bullshit and hates the Religious Right, he's just lost on so many of the issues.

    Another thing I have to keep in mind is that a decade and a half ago I was the type of person that the current RockyMtnLib would despise, and vice versa. I used to be a fundagelical who was a right wing nut. I then dabbled in anarcho-capitalism for a few years (if you ever get to know my real name you can Google it and find some articles I wrote espousing those views). Many RWNJ can't be reached but sometimes a few of them do change.

    liberal bias = failure to validate or sufficiently flatter the conservative narrative on any given subject

    by RockyMtnLib on Sun Jul 29, 2012 at 12:40:44 AM PDT

  •  While I wouldn't want (8+ / 0-)

    everyone to think exactly like I do, I think I'd have to append the statement as follows:


    "The American people are so used to being told they have freedom and democracy that they've forgotten to check to see if it's still true.." -Commenter on Facebook

    by Arenosa on Sun Jul 29, 2012 at 01:01:55 AM PDT

  •  I agree a thousand percent!! (3+ / 0-)

    THIS, what you wrote, is what I have been struggling with this election cycle.  Obviously you being gay makes it a million times more personal, and I totally respect that.  For me, not being gay, it makes me want to make things better for you as a gay person.  I am sick to death of listening to people talk about this issue as though it's just one more talking point for an election cycle.  NO, it's really not.

    This is a human issue and it needs to be resolved once and for all.  It's not okay for people to talk against the gay agenda.  It's not okay for people to get all preachy with their religious bullshit and say, oh well, love the sinner and hate the sin.  NO.

    I am technically a Catholic and yet I never want to tell anyone that because who would want to be tied to all the Catholic church bullshit?  Somewhere, Jesus is crying in a corner due to all that crazyness.

    So:  I hear you, I believe in what  you're saying, I support you!  

    The woman with the maroon hair had fallen to her knees and was asking the sky, “What I done wrong, God? Tell me, Lord. I been good.” “You’re kneeling on Rex’s grave!” Ignatius shouted.

    by gracielove on Sun Jul 29, 2012 at 02:42:50 AM PDT

  •  Does the diarist apply the same (0+ / 0-)

    standards to business clients?

    Just curious.

    •  You have total control over who (5+ / 0-)

      you determine are your friends and acquaintances and those who are not. But to live in the today's world and be a part of modern society you have to buy food, purchase gas, and otherwise do business with companies that may be less than perfect. However, you still have some options. There are choices out there other than Chick-fil-a or fast food altogether.

      And just as DKos accepts money from advertisers who don't share this site's philosophy or political viewpoints it is possible to do business with clients that don't share your views. After all, they're paying you for a product or service. So the real question becomes are they willing to do business with you because they don't share your views? And that's why most people have figured out that more often than not it's best to keep your religious beliefs and political opinions to yourself when working with clients. A business such as a politically partisan website like DKos would be an obvious exception to the general rule, of course.

      But as a consumer it is MY choice to NOT do business with a company that works against my best interests. I have control over where and how I spend my money.

      I hope I've been able to clarify the difference.

      Not this mind and not this heart, I won't rot • Mumford & Sons

      by jayden on Sun Jul 29, 2012 at 09:19:27 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  It's not as black and white as that. (0+ / 0-)

        First, I thought the diarist was too harsh.

        This isn't true for me, not at all:

        You have total control over who determine are your friends and acquaintances and those who are not
        You left out spouses, children, in-laws, et cetera, in that picture of "total control."  Total control doesn't exist, at least for me.

        I constantly have to socialize with people whom I don't like.

        No, I don't contact them personally except when I have to, but when you're having dinner with them or socializing with them because of your family or other friends, yeah, you do have to be "friendly," unless you're willing to issue ultimatums with your friends and family and are willing to trash those relationships.

        My point being is there is definitely a gray area here.

    •  I don't shop anywhere (0+ / 0-)

      that opposes LGBT rights, either in their actions or in their donations. I wouldn't enter a CFA on a bet.

      Science can tell you how to clone a dinosaur. Humanities explains why this is a bad idea.

      by Killer of Sacred Cows on Sun Jul 29, 2012 at 12:36:40 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I've got friends (5+ / 0-)

    of thirty years who don't call or hang out with me anymore because  I'm not furious with Obama.
    I'm someone who can't really "be friends" with right wing people. I can be polite, make a bit of conversation, but no friends.
    So, it's an interesting thing to be shunned for not being furious at Obama- the first time in my life I've been in trouble for not being radical enough.

  •  Maya Angelou taught me (7+ / 0-)

    a very important life lesson.  She discussed this with Oprah one day long ago.  She said that when a person in her life (mostly male - but sometimes female) says anything - anything critical, insulting, mean or cruel, hurtful or unkind, threatening or verbally abusive, that person is out of her life immediately.  She has a zero tolerance policy Becaus she said they are really trying to kill you - trying to destroy your essence, your spirit, your beautiful soul, and they do not care for you.  They do not.  She gets away from them.

    That lesson has left me with few friends throughout my life.  But I have many moments of peace and tranquility.  And I do not feel threatened very often - threatened by other human beings.

  •  Fierce diary. (5+ / 0-)

    I love it. Our LGBT civil rights are not up for debate. Period.

    I told that to these two moderate Republicans I knew once, after they told me they were against gay marriage. I told then straight up that I didn't consider them friends, and that it was offensive that they insisted on our friendship when they didn't think I deserved the same rights they had.

    They liked me, so they where bummed; but what did they expect?  They don't deserve fabulous.  They don't deserve to know me when they're so common. Fuck them.

    And of course they're divorced now. He knocked up a bartender on a bender.  They got married in the first place because they had an affair. Sanctity of marriage my ass.  

    Have you googled Romney today?

    by fou on Sun Jul 29, 2012 at 09:17:36 AM PDT

    •  This. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      They liked me, so they where bummed; but what did they expect?  They don't deserve fabulous.  They don't deserve to know me when they're so common. Fuck them.
      Sideways, if it'll fit. Absolutely.

      Science can tell you how to clone a dinosaur. Humanities explains why this is a bad idea.

      by Killer of Sacred Cows on Sun Jul 29, 2012 at 12:37:59 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  This may sound a bit jumbled as I'm trying to (5+ / 0-)

    fish for what I'm feeling about this.  I have a circle of friends who, fortunately are quite liberal, and I had one in Houston before I moved, who I stayed in touch with via Facebook who I knew was "severely Conservative".  We posted back and forth a bit, but when she posted something so far out there about either Obama or liberals (I used to just post rebuttal answers to all her conservative friends) that I answered "This "friending is over" and took her off of my Facebook account.  Never heard from her again. What I find difficult with the initial quote is that the two words "like" and "respect" are grouped together.  As with the friend I had, I could always like her casually (actually, she started out as my hairdresser, and it became going to her house for cuts, as she could charge me less, so we became friendly), but I could never respect her because of her views (and those of her husband).  
    When she finally posted the vile Facebook posting, I could no longer even casually like her.
    Does this make any sense to anyone?

    No one man can terrorize a whole nation unless we are all his accomplices...Edward R. Murrow

    by maxcat06 on Sun Jul 29, 2012 at 09:36:18 AM PDT

    •  I felt the same way about liking and respecting. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      raincrow, Killer of Sacred Cows

      But the example that came to mind is sort of the opposite of yours. I respect some people I don't necessarily like.

      I interact in a civilized manner with a number of people I admire professionally. A few are respected across the world for their contributions to their respective fields. I work in public health research so we may even have similar social-political values and opinions.

      But in several cases, there is no way on earth I'd invite them to my home for a dinner party. On an interpersonal level, they just are not very nice people.

      Just because you're not a drummer doesn't mean that you don't have to keep time. -- T. Monk

      by susanala on Sun Jul 29, 2012 at 10:12:14 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Come to think of it (3+ / 0-)

        I've had that happen too.  Some people have outstanding
        viewpoints, but are total jerks.

        No one man can terrorize a whole nation unless we are all his accomplices...Edward R. Murrow

        by maxcat06 on Sun Jul 29, 2012 at 10:46:41 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  The one person in my family (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Killer of Sacred Cows

          (by that I mean as extended as aunts, uncles and first cousins) who is liberal is one I will have nothing to do with. She is harboring a fugitive, has cheated on her husbands more than once, has about 6 kids, all with different fathers, doesn't really love them but uses them to get at my aunt and uncle who are often stuck with taking care of them.

          She's a walking definition of sociopath and a serial user of people.

          liberal bias = failure to validate or sufficiently flatter the conservative narrative on any given subject

          by RockyMtnLib on Sun Jul 29, 2012 at 11:32:02 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Notice the way I differentiated the two. (0+ / 0-)

      If they say they're going to act against my rights, I can't trust them, and I can't like someone I don't trust.

      Opinions that demonstrate that they are bigoted, hateful, sexist, racist, homophobic, etc. tell me that they are willfully uninformed and ignorant, and I can't respect someone who is willfully uninformed and ignorant.

      Science can tell you how to clone a dinosaur. Humanities explains why this is a bad idea.

      by Killer of Sacred Cows on Sun Jul 29, 2012 at 12:40:06 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  One's opinion should be infomed (2+ / 0-)

    ...that's the problem.  The notion of being entitled to one's opinion assumes that that entitlement has been earned - in other words, is informed.  Agree; I have very little respect for people who spout opinions based on vapor.

    ...the problem with the world is the idiots are cocksure of everything and smart people are full of doubt

    •  but when fox news deliberately disinforms (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Killer of Sacred Cows

      we must expose the truth

      Id rather be a tax and spend democrat than a borrow and spend republican any day. I pay my bills. - me

      by AustinLiberal on Sun Jul 29, 2012 at 10:27:48 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I think, in a way, that that very (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Killer of Sacred Cows

        reason is why I "friended" (shit, I hate that word) that person for so long.  She would put up a post, her puppet friends would all agree, and then I'd come along and post the total opposite.  To be frank, I'm surprised she put up with me as long as she did.  I had to drop her when the post became racial.

        No one man can terrorize a whole nation unless we are all his accomplices...Edward R. Murrow

        by maxcat06 on Sun Jul 29, 2012 at 10:49:44 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Intellectual honesty is the basis of friendship (3+ / 0-)

    It is something conservatives lack. I notice when I see Republicans and Democrats on talk shows, the Dems don't bluster as GOOPs and are less sure of themselves.
    I think the 'Can you trust Republicans' discussion is one of the best approachs with voters. They've tried to say Obama is untrustworthy based on 'Hope and Change' claim that they keep yammering about--thus keeping this weapon out of the hands of Democrats. We need to make the case that Obama has kept his promises--ACA, Iraq Bin Ladin when he could but Republicans have repeatedly sabotaged the economy. Also the economy is bad because the entire world economy is bad due to Bush's 2008 disaster, the US is actually doing as well or better than most countries.

  •  I love CFA's food. (0+ / 0-)

    but, I'll admit that I haven't been since all this when down. Maybe as a Southerner I always looked the other way at them being a Christian company. There are lots of evangelical people, small businesses, etc. in the South. I go out of the way to get Chick-fil-A at times. But, not anymore. When you become a national company sometimes you just need to keep your mouth shut when it comes to vexing issues. Of course, this is difficult for evangelicals. I'm not a fan of evangelicals because I don't like having others beliefs shoved down my throat.  I won't say that I won't go back to CFA. But, I have definitely noticed that I haven't been since Mr. Cathy made his public statements...

    •  The interesting part of this debate (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      raincrow, Killer of Sacred Cows

      is that I actually used to sort of admire the Chick-fil-A
      owner for staying closed on Sundays.  I figured that he
      was at least willing to forgo revenue for his beliefs.
      That ended as soon as he opened his mouth.

      No one man can terrorize a whole nation unless we are all his accomplices...Edward R. Murrow

      by maxcat06 on Sun Jul 29, 2012 at 10:54:55 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I mostly agree but (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    The idea that one side must demonize the other cause of their beliefs must stop. I share most if not all of your priorities and beliefs. I have also gotten to a point of feeling a significant distrust for the attitude that they can say or do anything(no matter how illegal or immoral) as long as it stops us from getting what we want. however if we blanketly demonize them, just cause they bought a waffle, it makes us as bad as they are.
    the debate has become so poisoned by deceit and distrust that we just dont debate anymore. they dont listen to us and we dont listen to them. when some liberals concocted a conspiracy theory that Bush funded the 9-11 attacks I stood up and said that there is NO evidence and this is pure fantasy. now getting them to do the same with their birther crazies is is almost impossible.
    in order to solve our problems we must work together. we must embrace truth and justice over hate and distrust.

    Id rather be a tax and spend democrat than a borrow and spend republican any day. I pay my bills. - me

    by AustinLiberal on Sun Jul 29, 2012 at 10:23:32 AM PDT

  •  This is a wonderful diary; one that evokes (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    raincrow, Killer of Sacred Cows

    serious thought about the consequences of your thinking. Personally, I don't talk to many people (I'm home most of the time). However, when I do, I will end a conversation if it wanders into areas where I don't agree with the other person. Like you, I have no patience when listening to an opposite view. I am also happy to boycott companies or people who hold views that are offensive to me. So, while I rarely eat fast food, if I wanted some, I certainly wouldn't go to CFL. I also wouldn't vote for Romney, as he tithes to the Mormon Church, and his money helped defeat Prop 8. That's not the only reason, obviously. So, now I have to decide what my attitude is to all members of the Mormon Church, as, I believe, most of them also tithe. It goes against my principles to dislike an entire group, but if that entire group gives money to defeat Prop 8, I have to decide whether my bias is more acceptable than theirs. Damn it's hard being a liberal. Good diary. It really got me thinking.

    Your left is my right---Mort Sahl

    by HappyinNM on Sun Jul 29, 2012 at 10:33:11 AM PDT

    •  Actually, his money helped *pass* prop 8. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      A yes on Prop 8 was an anti-gay vote. It was a vote to overturn the court ruling that said gays have equal marriage rights.

      Otherwise, spot on. And thank you for the comment.

      Science can tell you how to clone a dinosaur. Humanities explains why this is a bad idea.

      by Killer of Sacred Cows on Sun Jul 29, 2012 at 12:42:17 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  for what it's worth, i agree with you (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    raincrow, Killer of Sacred Cows

    I don't quibble with my friends about what their religion is, about their taste in music, or about superficial matters of taste.  But this is not 'taste' we're talking about: it is about the most important values that define us as human beings and as a society.   And it is long past time for rank and file liberals to stand up and tell their conservative 'friends' and neighbors that their views reflect a fundamental disinterest in the rights of their fellow human beings.

    "Kossacks are held to a higher standard. Like Hebrew National hot dogs." - blueaardvark

    by louisev on Sun Jul 29, 2012 at 10:38:45 AM PDT

  •  It's not about fucking chickens (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    rgjdmls, Killer of Sacred Cows

    Your 'friend,' who seems to clothe the naked prejudice of their bigotry with hypocrisy and condescension, should perhaps change the text on their facebook post to read:

    "I don't have to be a moran
    to like and respect you,
    but I am."

    Some folks just don't get it.

    Last year my daughter and her partner worked Pridefest down on Penn's landing in Philly, selling tickets with other member of their Lesbian softball team. I made a point of ducking out of the Philly beer week event I was attending at Local 44 and taking the streetcar down to give 'em both a big hug and tell 'em I was proud of them too. Paid my entrance fee, got a Pridefest wristband and walked through the crowd until I found 'em down by the entrance on the water by the tallship. One of their friends took a picture of the three of us, a picture I pull out to look at their beautiful smiles every time I read or hear about some moronic homophobic speech or action.  

    Maybe I'm not clear on the concept but, WTF, actions do speak louder than words.  

    So, there being no other obvious activities for straight men, I walked up the stairs hoping to get out the Walnut St entrance. The security guards wouldn't let me out and I really didn't want to have to walk back through the crowd down to the ferry landing entrance where I came in.  

    So I pulled out my wallet and badged my way out of Pridefest.  The shiny emblem did its job and they didn't stop to read the small print on it that identified me as a small town Mayor.

    Outside on the 100 degree Philly sidewalk,  I'm immediately accosted by these bored Animal Rights chicks lamenting the fate of broiler chickens.  They hadn't had much luck co-opting the event for their own political purposes ( we don't have to like or accept them to disagree with them)  and when they tried to foist their literature on me I pushed it away saying,

     "Its not about fucking chickens.  Nobody here is fucking chickens!"  

    This got the attention of the two Philly cops who'd also been baking in boredom outside the very peaceful event, and I left them doubled over in laughter when I walked up the street.

    One chooses one's friends and I walked away with a warm feeling that I knew where mine were.

    "I'll press your flesh, you dimwitted sumbitch! " -Pappy O'Daniel

    by jakewaters on Sun Jul 29, 2012 at 10:43:46 AM PDT

  •  You nailed it IMNSHO (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Killer of Sacred Cows

    I still feel an obligation to interact with civility, listen, help, learn from, and work with people who hate and/or are completely indifferent to human suffering outside their own personal arena. But I feel as interpersonally separated from them as I do from a shark, alligator, or grizzly.

  •  Superbly done, KoSC, thanks; you've said it all. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    raincrow, Killer of Sacred Cows

    Thanks to already-built-in anthropogenic climate change, our planet will only be able to sustain half a billion humans in 2100 AD. Human population will probably reach 9 billion in 2050 AD. Will your descendants be among the 'lucky' one-in-eighteen?

    by davidincleveland on Sun Jul 29, 2012 at 11:07:14 AM PDT

  •  Freedom of thought must also include freedom to (5+ / 0-)

    disapprove of someone else's thought. I never stop being amazed when people don't get this and think that freedom to have their viewpoint heard also requires freedom to insist that other people are required to treat it like a respectable viewpoint.  The moment you insist that other people must threat your viewpoint as respectable you are stifling their right to their own viewpoint.    It doesn't take a genius to figure out that because some viewpoints exist which are diametrically opposed, it is literally impossible to actually respect all viewpoints.

    And for the hard-of-thinking out there, no, respecting everybody's right to a viewpoint, which is possible, is not the same thing as respecting everybody's viewpoints themselves, which isn't possible.

    You can simultaneously disrespect a position while also respecting someone's right to hold it.

    One of the ways this manifests is in this diary right here.  You can hold any position you like, but know that some of them will cost you your friends if the position you hold insults them.

  •  And sometimes you lose friends due to (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Killer of Sacred Cows

    your moral imperatives, and it's just the way it is.

    There are things from small and seemingly pointless to large and obvious that I won't do. Because they are against my moral code. But for me, the strictures of the code are higher than the friendships. I have never entirely cut off communication from someone for their political or their religious beliefs (They have always, when given rope, turned out to be a jerk.)  But I have recognized, with some sorrow, that someone who possibly could have been a friend must be kept as an acquaintance due to a spot where she just doesn't see why I do what I do and disregards it.

    When you come to find how essential the comfort of a well-kept home is to the bodily strength and good conditions, to a sound mind and spirit, and useful days, you will reverence the good housekeeper as I do above artist or poet, beauty or genius.

    by Alexandra Lynch on Sun Jul 29, 2012 at 12:58:06 PM PDT

  •  As a parent ... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Killer of Sacred Cows

    As a parent of two twenty-somethings, I have another reason for seething anger at the bigots and ignoramuses. I'm on medicare and social security now (had kids late in life), and would be harmed by the Repug agenda. But I can take it; I'll just tighten my belt and try to move on. But that hateful platform (including climate denial) threatens far worse during the lifetime of my sons (both lib Dems by the way). By the time they are my age, this country could be barely recognizable: short on rights of all kinds (with the resulting protests treated as terrorism), short on food and water (although the privileged few will still live well), and oppressed by an authoritarian regime. That's not the future I want for my own children, or for anyone else's, and anyone who is helping to bring it about is my enemy - pure and simple. Maybe I could turn the other cheek if only my own future were at stake, but we're fighting for the future of humanity.

    "If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be." - Thomas Jefferson

    by Blue Boomer on Mon Jul 30, 2012 at 08:49:45 AM PDT

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