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There is nothing that can show the binary thinking of modern man more a tragedy in the US. Tragedies are tragic in every sense, but somehow American Exceptionalism feeds into some need for a 24/7 media frenzy disproportionate to the reality of what same Exceptionailsm wreaks upon the rest of the World.  A hundred killed at a Pakistani wedding?  Nary a peep.  A thousand born with grotesque birth defects in Fallujia?  Meh.  But give us a plane flown into a IRS building, a white girl kidnapped, a fertilizer bomb in Oklahoma, and we go rabid.  Add any tragedy involving guns?  And it becomes a meth frenzy of polarization, leaving absolutely no room for shades of grey in the reactionary public.

We don't have plane debates, fertilizer debates, racial unfairness in missing kid debates, but god damn.  We do have gun debates.  And?  There is nothing more divisive than this subject.

Somewhere between the crazed militia types and the screeching, preaching abolitionists?  Sanity and reason are suffocated under the mountain of invective, stereotyping and panic.  


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PART ONE: HOME AND HEARTH

I have spent the last week or so defending myself as a leftist who owns a registered handgun.  A handgun, which in Michigan required a background check and a waiting period to obtain.  It was brought into my household when my husband, then boyfriend, moved in with me.  I was fully against it at the time.

That didn't last too long, for shortly thereafter when he was driving over the road, I was the victim of a home invasion attempted rape and murder. That gun, and my ability to remain clear-headed under pressure saved my life.  I won't bore you with the gruesome details, the bruises and cuts from his knife, the choke marks on my neck.  Later, that same gun saved my husband when he was delivering in a bad part of Chicago when an armed gunman tried to enter his truck.  (by then he had bought me a shotgun)

Does this make me a gun-clutcher who "strokes off" my guns in some macho John Wayne fantasy of grandeur as some of the Liberaloids accuse me of?  I think not.  It makes me a survivor.  That gun has sat in its hidey-hole long since, and I hope I never have need to again let it see the light of day.  (or the horror of night as it were)  

It horrified and amazed me that there were so-called leftists that told me that they would rather no guns were in the hands of any civilian, and that since I was what they saw as an aberration, my death would have been better overall for society than allowing a homeowner the right to protect themselves. I wonder were it not online, they could look at me, look at my son who would never have been born, and told us it was better that the rapist kill me, and "fuck my corpse while the light fades from your fucking eyes, bitch" than for me to have used a gun and lived.

Men like to say, and I emphasize the male of the species, that women rarely defend themselves successfully in this way.  I would ask how many of them have sat through rape counseling with women.  Or how many women, once they know you have been through it, because you are brave enough to speak publicly about it, talk privately with you and tell you the same tales over and over.  Its a statistical fact that once raped you are twice as likely to be raped again.  Predators like the fear, smell your fear, get off on your fear.  I would say that almost 3/4 of the women I know who have endured more than one attack have fended off the 2nd because they had a gun.  They don't report this second event, because of already having experienced the demeaning way in which the system treats us. Because of this, and the fact that I have known many people who have scared off burglars with their guns, but didn't bother calling the cops because the perp was already in the wind, and the cops end up treating us as criminals anymore?  I think that the statistics are widely skewed when it comes to the "more likely to accidentally hurt yourself/spouse/child" story.  Those statistics only get reported when things go tragically wrong, and are used by a larger group who would love for society to be disarmed.

After my attack, I trained on a range until I was not only adept at handling a weapon, the guys at that gun club had a female member going to the Olympics they wanted me to train under.  I was that good.  I was working 2 jobs, going to school, had my own home and a couple acres to take care of, and a father dying of Parkinson's.  I had to decline.

I am for legislation.  I want a background check, a cooling off period, and I will go one further.  I think every person who owns a handgun should have to log range time, have a safety course, and be certified before they can purchase one.  If you are not comfortable with that weapon, you have no business owning one.  

Just like cars.  You should earn a license.  And cars kill more people every year than guns do.

So yes, I believe in legislated personal protection handguns.  When confronted with this, my story and evidence and the logic behind it?  Some become so polarized that they tell me rape is just a tool to win an argument because I am some sort of mentally ill gun stroker.  Take this exchange:


"You're obviously a petty tyrant who will use any device (including being a near-rape victim) as a tool of emotional manipulation. "

I'm sorry. My LIFE and PAIN make you feel manipulated? My reality? My honesty about the physical and emotional scars I carry bother you? My survival and its story are merely tools to manipulate you? Golly, and here I thought they were experiences I endured. All along, I went through all this just to manipulate you?

As a former pacifist of sorts, I understand the "sanctity of human life" theory behind de-escalating the ability of humans to kill one another.  I want that too.  But I live here on the mean streets of reality, not in some gated community or guarded artists sanctuary.  I live in reality where my killers life was not more "sanctitive" than mine.  I should, as the good guy die, so that the criminal may live, thus proving to all my unborn children that may never thereafter gasp oxygen and blink unto the world that the Mom they never had was one of the good ones?

I asked of these men, "If an intruder was to come into your home with a gun and a knife, leave the gun on the table, and walk to the bedroom to carve up your wife or child, would you pick that gun up and stop them? Or would you remain true to your religious anti-violent fervor and watch them die?"

They never answer that direct question.  They divert and say that would never happen to them.  Thats the thing about crime, the thing about USer's in general.  We are so detached, nothing is real until it happens to you personally...  that is, unless it serves their POLITICAL purposes.  Hence, going back to my 1st point, why so little outcry in the MSM or the Liberaloid circles when war crime after war crime is committed daily.  So little outcry when black on black crime is epidemic, and cop on black crime is worse.  I am unsurprised that there are no statistic of the number of black citizens shot to death by our police state every year, yet its not uncommon to read weekly how another was shot 28 times, or in the back.

Which leads me to my next point.  We live in the reality that exists, not the reality we wish existed. It is a violent world.  The fact that our Revolution was born of violence and that guns have been long part of our culture may be part and parcel of our reality, yet we cannot undo it.  The fact that Predatory Capitalism is the basis of our Society shares even greater blame.  But it is what it is.  Like alcohol and drugs, prohibition only leaves more incentive for a criminal in black market profiteering. There are so many guns in the US right now, even were they to cease making them and all the "good citizens" give theirs up?  Gun crime would stay unaffected.  I live in a violent world, and as such need protection.  

As the old saying goes?  "Never bring a knife to a gun fight."

I am told I am unenlightened - that guns make giving in to our rage and impotence all too easy.  My old partner used to say that the socioeconomic stressors were creating human time bombs.  Both statements, save the unenlightened part, are true.  

But we are treating the open wound with a band aid, we arguing how many teeth are in the sharks mouth while it is about to swallow us.  We are missing the point.

If we do not address the root illness that causes humans to be full of rage and impotence, people will find ever new ways to explode. We will become like suicide bombers in the prison-like like conditions of Gaza, with nothing left to loose.  Only our enemy is invisible, unattainable, ever the man behind the curtain, with layers and layers of defense at his disposal.

PART TWO: REVOLUTION OR DELUSION


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If you show a leftist a portrait in history, of a woman holding a gun as a French Revolutionary, a fighter against Pinochet, a comrade of Che or Fidel, a defender of Chavez, you will hear nothing but glorification, respect, laud to their bravery.  If you speak to the same Leftist about being armed in defense against a rising fascist state?  They will speak of Gandhi and tell you that non-violence is the only way.

Or perhaps, they will speak of your paranoia and delusion. They would never do that to us here, and we must not provoke them.  The thing is?  We have been peacefully protesting, and the militarized police, aided by Homeland Security have been acting violently against us.  They are using drones.  They are wearing fatigues. Obama has a kill list.  We have NDAA saying they can take us without cause or trial and keep us as long as they wish. The Unitary Executive of Bush brought us the fourth estate as potential enemy. The court challenge to Obama's Unitary Executive will not deny that is so.  One need only to look at the nightly evidence in Occupy to see that we have no free speech or Right of Assembly. Look deeper and see the internet kill switch bypassed Congress by executive Order, and the felonizing federally of protesting anywhere where a SS agent may or may not be present, with or without your knowledge. We don't even have free speech.  Hold a sign, get tackled by 2 cops and a horse.


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The Populace rises when it is weakened to the point of it being intolerable.  In that condition, no one takes on the powerful state, ever.  It is always the protectors of the status quo, the elite class that start the class war.  They always start the violence to strike fear in anyone brave enough to object to our condition.  People take the abuse, try and capitulate, get beaten, tazed, jailed, and tortured... always seeking change without dying.  And every time?  The elites end up killing us if we continue our quest for fair treatment.

It is not delusional to think the Class war is coming.  The Class War is already in full-force against us, and is being waged in disproportional response to the peaceful ways in which we have objected.  Its not coming, my friends, it is here.

I've had former special ops friends warn me. "If you were any actual challenge to the status quo?  Response will be so swift and brutal you wouldn't know what hit you.  They have plans for all that.  They'd smoke you all in a heartbeat."

This is why they love to ply us with the horrors of "terrorists."  For what is a terrorist but one that must use guerrilla tactics against a much stronger foe - exactly what we did against the British, who complained we would not line up and fight fair.  Revolutions are always David and Goliath, or they would just be called wars.

I replied to my special ops friend that eventually the kids they hire would not want to kill their own, and that they are vastly outnumbered by people who know the lay of the land, have everything and nothing to lose and are armed.  He said they know that and it gives them nightmares every night.

The thing that would serve them best, the thing they cannot manipulate the "right" into doing is take away our guns.  This latest episode has been perfect for them, as perfect as 9/11 and as useful in reason for spying on us and disarming us.  They need the Left to do this, just as they need another Obama win to keep the Liberaloids at bay while they continue massacring our rights.  The Liberaloids will be the tool of our own demise, should they win the gun debate.  

I'm not going to get on the train to glory.  I won't step into a cattle car.  I will take some of them with me, even as I lose my life, should it come to that.


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The second amendment is not an archaic notion.  It was created because men gained money and power, and bought armies to protect their money and power.  It is more relevant today than ever before in our short history.

"Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom of Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any bands of regular troops that can be, on any pretense, raised in the United States" (Noah Webster in 'An Examination into the Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution', 1787, a pamphlet aimed at swaying Pennsylvania toward ratification, in Paul Ford, ed., Pamphlets on the Constitution of the United States, at 56(New York, 1888))
"To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of people always possess arms, and be taught alike especially when young, how to use them." (Richard Henry Lee, 1788, Initiator of the Declaration of Independence, and member of the first Senate, which passed the Bill of Rights, Walter Bennett, ed., Letters from the Federal Farmer to the Republican, at 21,22,124 (Univ. of Alabama Press,1975)..)
"The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed." (Alexander Hamilton, The Federalist Papers at 184-8)
"And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms....The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants" (Thomas Jefferson in a letter to William S. Smith in 1787. Taken from Jefferson, On Democracy 20, S. Padover ed., 1939)
"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined" (Patrick Henry, 3 J. Elliot, Debates in the Several State Conventions 45, 2d ed. Philadelphia, 1836)
"The strongest reason for people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." -- (Thomas Jefferson)
CONCLUSION:

There are no innocents in times of war.  There are participants, and those who enable the status quo by silent acquiescence.  There is a third type though.  Those who feel they are on the moral side, yet use all their words and power to keep actual Revolution from happening.

Dualistic thinking are the things of childhood.  As I child I spake as a child; of peace and roses and higher ground.  It is the world to which I still aspire.  Yet as an adult, one must see the facets of reality that speaks of never having equity or peace or human rights without a fight.  The Elites will not be moved by our non-violence.  They already prove that daily.  The Elites will not be threatened by a working class they need for labor to back down; they no longer need our labor.

I am not delusional in the protection of my home or my country in being armed.  I am being pragmatic and thoughtful.  Guns are weapons of death.  I realize that fully.  I realize too that people use these tools to wreak havoc on the denizens of this planet from human to fauna.  Mostly I realize that beyond guns, environmental destruction, pollution, factory farming, over fishing and global warming may make all our petty arguments moot.  We need a systemic reboot with education and emphasis on cooperation to save ourselves.  We need to kill predatory capitalism and the killing of the human soul and psyche that creates.  We need revolution.

Dreamers dream, poets wax of utopia.  

And Revolutionaries make the dreams of utopia come true.  With our blood on the line so that they may continue to dream and rhyme.

Damn me if you must, oh Liberaloids; just as the right damns me for wanting a Socialist World Revolution.  But in the end?  You may end up glad its me standing armed between you and your death.  Your children my gaze upon my picture as you do of history's other fighters.  Or I may just end up obscure and dead.  Either way, if this tragedy is fodder for you to help us lose this war?  You are deluded and dualistic to the point of no return.

My path is righteous, and I shall sleep the sleep of the Goddesses.

DISCLAIMER:  My intended audience is the anti-capitalist group.  As such, any (valid) criticism of this administration is peripheral. Please do not make it about Obama/Romney's relative merits.  It is about gun control being smarter than gun prohibition.  Thank you and leave the flames outside the door.

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Comment Preferences

  •  She gets it. n/t (11+ / 0-)

    "The United States is a nation of laws: badly written and randomly enforced." -ZappaMy Site

    by meagert on Tue Jul 31, 2012 at 06:59:10 PM PDT

  •  HRed for liberaloids. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    allergywoman
  •  So many quotes, I'm gonna steal (12+ / 0-)

    We need a systemic reboot with education and emphasis on cooperation to save ourselves.  We need to kill predatory capitalism and the killing of the human soul and psyche that creates.  We need revolution.

    "The United States is a nation of laws: badly written and randomly enforced." -Zappa My Site

    by meagert on Tue Jul 31, 2012 at 07:20:28 PM PDT

  •  I'd hope this gets a few reads (12+ / 0-)

    How big is your personal carbon footprint?

    by ban nock on Tue Jul 31, 2012 at 07:25:13 PM PDT

    •  For entirely different reasons, (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      allergywoman

      I hope this gets read as well.

      The diarist puts a shit load of right wing talking points into the mouths of leftists. It's instructive to read how disingenuous gun rights activists can be.

      The major arguments from the left are NOT against personal protection. That straw dog don't hunt.

      The real gun control arguments from the left have to do with a number of issues (some of which the diarist supports, and some of which she conveniently ignores).

      Very freaking few leftists, liberals, progressives, whatever, would deny her the moral authority to protect herself.

      Now, most LEOs and home security experts would venture that THE most effective deterrent to a home invasion is a shotgun. (No, I don't have the cites, but I challenge you to dismiss the logic.) A shotgun is just as accessible (unless you walk around your house packing heat on your hip), is intimidating as all get-out, and can easily and (depending on the load) lethally stop any and multiple intruders dead in their tracks. It doesn't require the special skill of maintaining accurate aim in a panic situation. Point and shoot. It's over. The diarist herself acknowledges the shotgun is now her chosen home defense weapon.

      As far as self protection outside of the home, obviously a handgun is a more sensible choice, other than taking pains to avoid situations where resorting to lethal defense may be one's only option. The leftist would argue, however, WHY concealed carry? If your goal is to deter an attack, it makes a lot more sense to inform your would-be assailant that you're capable of defending yourself. Beyond mere deterrence, actually having to use the weapon is more easily accomplished if you're wearing that gun on the outside of clothing or bags. If you're going to be putting yourself in a situation where violent assault is a reasonable potential occurrence, why be squeamish about advertising your capability to keep yourself safe?

      Another leftist objection to current gun law is allowing the possession of magazines and drums that have the capability of feeding dozens (if not 100) rounds in rapid fire. To what end? The high capacity capability is the tool of one who envisions shooting (or, fine, having to shoot) multiple people in a very short period of time. Are your chances of becoming engaged in a firefight with multiple attackers that large? Really?

      But, if only law abiding citizens can't get their hands on "banana mags," the criminals will have more fire power than Good Citizen Joe!!

      You know what? I don't buy, and most progressives I know don't buy, the argument that we can't seek to remove the most dangerous and criminally abused weapons, simply because the country is already awash in dangerous and criminally abused weapons. It's a bullshit, self-defeating argument.

      We, as a society, with a vested interest in curtailing criminal violence, need to find the courage to define WHAT weapons are appropriate for hunting, WHAT weapons are appropriate for personal protection, and WHAT weapons are most frequently used in the commission of violent crime.

      It's that latter category we need to ban the continued manufacture of, and attach mandatory minimum sentences for conviction of simply possessing such banned weapons, whether or not they're used in the commission of a crime.

      Should semi-automatics be subject to such a ban? I'd say yes. Again, make the penalties for possession harsh and consistent.

      I won't even bother to address the diarist's fantasy about the prospect of armed rebellion being sufficient to deter a tyrannical government, supported by modern weapons of war. It's bullshit.

      The MOST EFFECTIVE SAFEGUARD against a government gone rogue is the demonstrated willingness of the citizenry to refuse to play ball. General, sustained strikes. What the PTB fear most is the derailing of the gravy train.

      Lastly, I DENOUNCE the diarist for implying that "it was better that the rapist kill me" is a widely held sentiment among even the most diehard, doctrinaire gun control advocates.

      Republican Healthcare Plan: Everyone will be encouraged to move to Chris Collins' district, where noone dies of cancer.

      by WisePiper on Tue Jul 31, 2012 at 09:45:10 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Republican talking point - self defence great (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        kestrel9000

        Democratic talking point...surrender monkey?

        Bee Gees- Tragedy w/  lyrics

        Our president has his failings, but compared to Mitt Romney he is a paradigm of considered and compassionate thought.

        by OMwordTHRUdaFOG on Tue Jul 31, 2012 at 10:03:38 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  You should learn more. (4+ / 0-)

        There is no such thing as a single best firearm for home defense.  All three types (handgun, rifle, shotgun) have advantages and disadvantages.

        Handguns are useful if you need a hand free for opening doors & shepparding kids, etc.  Shotguns have a good amount of stopping power and are easier to use and aim.  Rifles give you more distance and precision.

        All three can overpenetrate, but with the right loads all three can be effective and viable defensive weapons.  The kicker?  You have the least amount of overpenetration with a 5.56/.223 round from a rifle.

        I'd also like you to reconsider your ignorant opinion that only open carry is safe or effective for deterring attack; regardless of whatever Western you have based your premise upon, I live in California which effectively bans the practice, as do many other states and localities.

        I'm not going to address your ridiculous assertions regarding normal capacity magazines as it is likely pointless to discuss the issue with someone who knows so little about firearms.

        Like I said, you should probably learn more about the subject you feel so passionately about.  Maybe talk to more people, or, better yet, join me as a safe and responsible gun owner who is prepared to defend my life and the lives of my family and neighbors.

        No denunciations here, I find that they are nothing more than attempts to limit debate.

      •  About this: (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Robobagpiper, Diane Gee, ER Doc
        The major arguments from the left are NOT against personal protection. That straw dog don't hunt.
        BULLSHIT. Will you stand guard by my side when you "regulate out of existence" those "evil guns"???
        We, as a society, with a vested interest in curtailing criminal violence, need to find the courage to define WHAT weapons are appropriate for hunting, WHAT weapons are appropriate for personal protection, and WHAT weapons are most frequently used in the commission of violent crime.
        You, as a claimed member of society, have no right to define an unalienable right.  Freedom is me deciding what tool I may use for whatever reason or no reason and then living with the consequences.

        I do not need a reason to exercise said right(s).  

        How about you promote this reasoning when those whom exercise their religion that kills, maims and subjugates thousands each year?

        How about you promote this reasoning when people exercise their free speech? Or free press?  Or right to protest?

        Wait guys, you cannot believe, promote or exercise any faith that teaches hatred of others.  You can't spread your beliefs amongst you and you surely can't publish it...the Bible is now banned.

        Impossible strawman you say? I think not!

        As a transgendered woman I've been assaulted, mugged, threatened and publicly humiliated more times than you have underwear.  Many of my sisters haven't been so lucky, usually they just kill us.

        The whole point here? Unalienable rights cannot be regulated away.  I do not agree with the majority of man's religions, but I will defend their right to believe it, even if it ends up killing me.

        Furthermore, what is disingenuous with this argument is that it ignores reality, as the Diarist so aptly pointed out.  

        What are those weapons that are most frequently used in the commission of violent crime?

        I have to agree with the Diarist, Predatory Capitalism.

        Pushing gun control will result in energizing the republicans to vote us out of office at every level of government.

        How many millions of Americans have been forced into poverty because of their policies?  How many have died as a result and do so each and every year?

        Wait, we have the answer:

        45,000 Americans die from lack of health services each and every year.

        How many are unemployed? 31 MILLION.
        How many more are now "classified" as "under-employed"? 9.3 MILLION.
        How many have been removed from any classification? 86 MILLION.

        How many die from poverty? Over a million yearly!

        http://www.sciencedaily.com/...

        "Social causes can be linked to death as readily as can pathophysiological and behavioral causes," points out Dr. Galea, who is also Gelman Professor of Epidemiology. For example, the number of deaths the researchers calculated as attributable to low education (245,000) is comparable to the number caused by heart attacks (192,898), which was the leading cause of U.S. deaths in 2000. The number of deaths attributable to racial segregation (176,000) is comparable to the number from cerebrovascular disease (167,661), the third leading cause of death in 2000, and the number attributable to low social support (162,000) compares to deaths from lung cancer (155,521).
        Special note here: These studies used numbers from the year 2000.  Just after Clinton was in office and the country had its greatest economic expansion.  

        What is it today?  Must we wait 20 yrs to find out that the Republican Policies of Predatory Capitalism killed millions more???

        The class war you deny that is occurring has already been won, by them!

        As for this:

        The MOST EFFECTIVE SAFEGUARD against a government gone rogue is the demonstrated willingness of the citizenry to refuse to play ball.
        Bullshit again, as bad as things were under the BushCrime Syndicate, we could only muster 54% of Americans to get to the polls and vote.

        Americans have proven that they will not participate in our corrupt system of government simply by refusing to vote.

        Now what do we do? Since your theories have been proven wrong, what solutions do you bring to the table today?

        -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

        by gerrilea on Wed Aug 01, 2012 at 07:32:54 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  whenever I read the words, "right wing talking (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        KVoimakas, Diane Gee

        points" bells start going off in my head. You are trying to accues the poster of being right wing by inference, and that's just not an honest way to argue.

        How big is your personal carbon footprint?

        by ban nock on Thu Aug 02, 2012 at 07:09:22 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  asdf (0+ / 0-)

      One quick edit, before my comment gets derailed: What I meant to say by "WHAT weapons are most frequently used in the commission of violent crime" is that those weapons that serve no legitimate, legal purpose in the hands of non-LEO citizens should be banned.

      Republican Healthcare Plan: Everyone will be encouraged to move to Chris Collins' district, where noone dies of cancer.

      by WisePiper on Tue Jul 31, 2012 at 09:54:45 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I find most of your diary quite thoughtful (11+ / 0-)

    and you make some valid points that as a second amendment supporter I am in full agreement with, however I believe your use of 'liberaloids' and other such implied slurs unfairly closes off your message and implies that those of us who are liberal cannot be reasonable about gun control.

    By the way, I 100 percent agree with the waiting period, training, testing, and range time.  

    "I watch Fox News for my comedy, and Comedy Central for my news." - Facebook Group

    by Sychotic1 on Tue Jul 31, 2012 at 07:40:19 PM PDT

  •  I've Never Met a Nonliberal Who Claimed the Label. (5+ / 0-)

    At least since Nixon. I meet conservatives who claim the labels "centrist" and "moderate" while being called "liberal" by the media and the rightwing.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Tue Jul 31, 2012 at 07:52:52 PM PDT

  •  Another quote for discussion (10+ / 0-)

    "Mostly I realize that beyond guns, environmental destruction, pollution, factory farming, over fishing and global warming may make all our petty arguments moot."

    "The United States is a nation of laws: badly written and randomly enforced." -Zappa My Site

    by meagert on Tue Jul 31, 2012 at 08:01:06 PM PDT

  •  Nobody's collecting all the guns (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Diane Gee, Sychotic1, allergywoman

    Even if that were my most fervent wish, it is not happening. There are millions of guns and multiple millions of rounds of ammo in the hands of citizens. More fly off the shelves every time some piece of shit massacres a crowd of people.

    If the time came where the government did send out troops to collect all the firearms, it would be a complete bloodbath.There would be thousands of Waco's happening all across the nation.

    Warning people about "what could happen if" re  "oppressive" gun control is just alarmist rhetoric. On the other hand, talking about the many dangers of keeping guns in homes with children, with the mentally ill, etc., would be a reasonable conversation to have.

    I appreciate your expectations of registered gun-owners. I would like to see at least some licensing system similar to what is expected for drivers.

  •  funny (5+ / 0-)
    As I child I spake as a child; of peace and roses and higher ground.  It is the world to which I still aspire.  Yet as an adult, one must see the facets of reality that speaks of never having equity or peace or human rights without a fight.
    people incapable of making sound arguments often fall back on infantilizing their political opposition. have fun with your gun. i'm sure that in an era of wmds and drones and armored vehicles you will protect us all from tyranny.

    The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

    by Laurence Lewis on Tue Jul 31, 2012 at 08:22:18 PM PDT

    •  So...You're afraid of your government? (8+ / 0-)

      And you don't believe you have a chance against them. Now I don't agree entirely with some of the diary's statements, but it seems you are verifying her thoughts.

      "The United States is a nation of laws: badly written and randomly enforced." -Zappa My Site

      by meagert on Tue Jul 31, 2012 at 08:26:12 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  humans run those things (5+ / 0-)

      and eventually the kids they hire to do so will sicken at killing their own.

      Would you prefer we all step politely on the trains?

      •  how embarrassing for you (7+ / 0-)

        i know my history, i've been to auschwitz, and i have what's known as perspective. but congratulations for so quickly going godwin.

        The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

        by Laurence Lewis on Tue Jul 31, 2012 at 08:32:30 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I don't think she ever said that we are living (7+ / 0-)

          under Nazis, but I cannot deny that there is a distinct hint of fascism in the air.  In this case I think you are crying Godwin too soon.

          "I watch Fox News for my comedy, and Comedy Central for my news." - Facebook Group

          by Sychotic1 on Tue Jul 31, 2012 at 08:35:32 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  really? (7+ / 0-)

            and to what trains do you think she's referring?

            The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

            by Laurence Lewis on Tue Jul 31, 2012 at 08:38:00 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  look Lawrence, these debates have been trolled by (6+ / 0-)

              the best.

              There is no reasonableness left, anybody we might be reasonable with has gone, it's a few of us (RKBA etal like me) and a few of you (reasonable users and a lot of bomb throwers, being inflammatory for whatever agenda....the agenda being mostly IMO, distract us and stir us to promote something to hurt us with electionwise/sitewise...same thing yes?

                  Now maybe if you and the other front pagers or moderators or dkos editors had bothered to do something about these flamers a year ago, we wouldn't have people so touchy as they are today.
                   Sockpuppets, trolls, spammers, we saw little help, if any from anybody officially dkos..MB looked in sometimes, Kestrel was banned and reinstated, but wtf?

              You all mastheaders could have made a difference, and as far as I know didn't, so don't get all up in our grills about the tenor of the back and forth at this point.

              We've been called everything you could imagine here, both sides back and forth...and the RKBA side learned/is learning not to be baited by this bullshit and adopt more relentless, thorough, and factual and less emotional responses...

                And now you want to get all bothered by something you can say is Godwin, as if this is a party game and the first person to call Godwin wins? So Diane, not a 'regular' in a rant of a diary gets ...ahh, nevermind...

                I don't know what the answer is, but RKBA as a group with the focus of electing dems in swing states by helping defuse one of the Reepubs main bullshit lines against us has, with the exception of MB, been neglected by you all mastheaders. IMO.
                I think that ia a major failing, and the RKBA Group and it's goals should be supported more outwardly for it's political benefits. Period. You all haven't. IMO.  

              And as long as there are gun diaries there will three sides:
              * the trolls,
              * people with 'reasonable' gun control proposals, and
              * RKBA etc advocating for smarter and effective gun laws and effective non discriminatory enforcement..while at the same time fending off the unmoderated shit stirring trolls proposing bans and all kinds of impolitic ignorant unliberal horseshit, meant to stir shit and distract us. The trolls win because the dedication of more regular users to participate vanishes, (this is the well known MO of trollery in general).
                    Once the trolls can start any kind of controversy, people leave, leaving the issue defenders (RKBA et al) and attackers (trolls)..and say  'Ohhhh, how bitter, how nasty, not me"...and the trolls win....
                Anybody from the outside looking at dkos might often have that reaction anyway ... (I hear that IRL as it is about dkos...not just about gun topics in particular) so it doesn't help to have this shitfest.....and  IRL repubs get to continue with their 'Dems are gun grabbers smears' and I have no idea how to defeat that IRL anyway..we can't get there from Here I say.

              I wanted a ban on gun diaries, MB doesn't like it, and now Lautenberg has made some proposal guaranteed to get wide play among the repubs and media until november. I have said it's a divisive distraction, nothing will be done before November anyway...and now Lautenberg etc...

                  And I bet there will be more kneejerk liberal proposals made, Darcy Burner and Elizabeth Warren, two very canny pols have spoken to the issue...they have the skills to pull it off I hope, but many other don't.. so hello Speaker ''IBlowGoats' Cantor

              I don't know what could make this better...I think it's too fucking late.

              I think dems are going to shoot off both feet with their last bullet...will it be enough to still allow us to reelect Obama...I fucking hope so.

                So how about instead of nannieing occaisional diarist Diane about Godwin, you participate more often here, and come up with ways we can reach legislators and help them not reinforce repubs favorite anti dem gun grabber smears...and coincidentally help reelect Obama, and maybe save a bazillion lives in the mideast?

               

              From those who live like leeches on the people's lives, We must take back our land again, America!...Langston Hughes

              by KenBee on Tue Jul 31, 2012 at 11:36:16 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  the best place to start irl (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Deep Texan, tytalus

                is to call bullshit on the nra, which gives howard dean a 100% rating, then turns on him when he runs for president, or foments fear of obama, who is the first democratic president that i know of to read the 2nd as an individual right. we as a nation will never have a reasonable dialogue about how to protect both public safety and the rights of responsible gun owners as long as the nra controls the debate.

                on this site, there has been plenty of bullying on both sides of this issue, and some of the worst anti-rkba antagonists have been banned. i can't speak for other fpers, and i have no administrative responsibilities, but at least a couple of the most prominent fpers are themselves gun owners, so there certainly isn't any site policy or intention to make the site antagonistic to gun owners. as i see it- and again, this is my personal observation and in no way reflects anyone else's opinion- to some degree, rkba threads have become like i/p, in that unless things break out into open meta wars, much seems to be left to community moderation. both sides have contributed to the problems and both can help create solutions.

                as for this diary, it's not just the gun bit that i find laughable, but i don't think it will help the more dispassionate observer to take the rkba cause seriously.

                The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

                by Laurence Lewis on Wed Aug 01, 2012 at 12:54:34 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  'rkba cause' as some nra defined term? (7+ / 0-)

                  or the RKBS-Daily Kos group here which is about gun politics and their effect on electing more and better dems?

                  and if you don't see the difference....well, maybe there isn't one....that would be telling.

                  But I think certainly there is...

                     Clearly there is  no support for the NRA politics here amongst anybody either 'side' of these discussions.

                  Their gun safety measures are good....fear mongering, lying,  and grifting of people to the detriment of the dems reputation and subsequent voter decision making in swing states is hurting us. They are hated for that.

                  That opinion is always pretty much stated like that in most threads eventually..

                  As to bullying, that's pretty much a bullshit assertion at this point...the RKBA group seems to have cut way back on sarcasm and name calling responses to what has been pretty severe trolling. Lessons about being baited have been learned ...mostly.

                  If bullying is someone posting a diary and comments with inaccurate and or misleading info...the 'bullying' claim seems to mean 'if more than one person disagrees with it' which then allows people some kind of freedom to run to the community and complain of being' bullied by thugs.'

                  And of course this is also a trolls tactic #1 as well...post something inflammatory and complain dishonestly elsewhere about it, damaging the reputations of the usually not present accused.
                     The exaggerations and whining about being 'bullied' are really mostly dishonest and unsupported IMO, and are most certainly based on disagreement.  The dishonesty is widespread. No dkos management has done anything to challenge that except for one comment by MB I think...

                     So if you disagree with the RKBA-Dkos  goals as identified in Kyle's group ID elsewhere, and think they  are not in the site's interests, continue to repeat that both sides do it, that the RKBA group are bullies etc, then take your part in the responsibility for that view.

                    If you agree with the goals then get involved helping correct tactics where you see them wrong. I'd be happy to hear about that.

                  And if you think the RKBA-dkos group here is wasting it's time, say so.

                  and thanks for your reply.

                  From those who live like leeches on the people's lives, We must take back our land again, America!...Langston Hughes

                  by KenBee on Wed Aug 01, 2012 at 01:33:02 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  as i've stated to some of the anti-rkba crowd (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    KenBee, Deep Texan, indycam

                    although i am in favor of much more strict regulations than are most of the rkba group, i have had productive conversations with kyle and others- despite sharp disagreements. but i don't have a lot of time to spend on meta, these days- i barely have time to post for sunday kos. and i see people on both sides complaining of bullying from the other side, while i've also seen what i thought were the most obnoxious antagonists on both sides getting banned. and i was sorry to see k9000 banned, because i like him, and i don't consider him a bad actor, but i do think he'd be the first to admit that he sometimes lets his temper get the best of him. i was glad he was reinstated, and from what i've seen he's now refusing to get baited, which is good for everyone. but from what i've seen, the real trolls and troublemakers- on both sides- have been banned, and i think you have to notice that.

                    as far as i know, markos is doing pretty much all community moderation on his own now, and it's no simple or easy task. and i've noticed that he does respond when people call attention to questionable bannings or nr'ings, as well as when people call attention to troublemakers who otherwise have slipped under the radar. but again- ultimately it's the people who frequent those threads that need to keep them functioning smoothly, and sometimes that will require extra effort in drawing attention to particular problems, but- and again, this is my personal observation- although things might not work as quickly as some would like, most problems do get taken care of.

                    as for the nra- i'm talking about irl. i know you on this site don't like them, but irl you almost certainly cross paths with nra members a lot more than do we non gun owners, so that's where you all can maybe chip away at the lies and dogmas. people like me are never going to get anywhere with nra members.

                    this is a big issue, and it needs genuine dialogue so we can get legitimate and enforceable gun regulation- which i also believe will, over time, remove some of the fears some gun owners have that the real goal is to take away all guns.

                    The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

                    by Laurence Lewis on Wed Aug 01, 2012 at 01:58:47 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                •  Laurence... (5+ / 0-)

                  Did I in anyway endorse nra?

                  No, no I did not, in fact, I offered far more extreme regulation than has ever been offered.

                  I just think banning guns entirely is counter productive and counter intuitive in a violent world.

                  "I am for legislation.  I want a background check, a cooling off period, and I will go one further.  I think every person who owns a handgun should have to log range time, have a safety course, and be certified before they can purchase one.  If you are not comfortable with that weapon, you have no business owning one.  

                  Just like cars.  You should earn a license.  And cars kill more people every year than guns do.

                  So yes, I believe in legislated personal protection handguns."

                  •  I don't agree with your specific prescriptions (5+ / 0-)

                    But you argued them reasonably.

                    Non enim propter gloriam, diuicias aut honores pugnamus set propter libertatem solummodo quam Nemo bonus nisi simul cum vita amittit. -Declaration of Arbroath

                    by Robobagpiper on Wed Aug 01, 2012 at 05:28:19 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  i'm not for banning guns altogether (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    blueness, indycam

                    i"m also not a fan of the embarrassing film red dawn.

                    The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

                    by Laurence Lewis on Wed Aug 01, 2012 at 09:14:09 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  Some pushback. (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Diane Gee, ER Doc

                    It's plain you don't see the regulation you propose as getting a leg up for further restrictions in the future.

                    Automobiles are certainly dangerous, but so are flammables and toxins found in any household.  We don't require licenses to handle quantities that can start fires that burn down entire neighborhood blocks, poison adults and children, and inflict corrosive burns.  Electricity and gas are pretty dangerous, too, but you don't have to be a licensed to work on your own lighting or stove.  Hazards are all around us, but there's this lazy tendency to look at the leading categories of preventable death, identify one or two tangibles as a controllable cause, and attempt to restrict access to or outright ban them.  In this paradigm, alcohol is twice as deadly as a motor vehicle and almost three times deadlier than firearms.

            •  I truly hope (5+ / 0-)

              That I am waiting for that which will never come.  But I think it is disingenuous to not see rising fascism in a state where peaceful, sitting student protestors are tear gassed in the face, where Anaheim has become a police siege against protestors, where they are already kettling and mass arresting protestors without cause.

              No we are not living right now under Nazis, but with the continuing economic collapse do to the extraction of that capital by the few (what 32 trill offshore in tax havens?) and the austerity which they want us to endure?

              I can't see the rich handing back their trillions because we ask nicely.  Any scholar of ancient or recent history should be at least highly wary, if not alarmed.

              •  it's one thing to dicuss honestly (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                indycam

                concepts such as creeping fascism. godwin is another matter.

                i've written extensively and coherently about austerity. from that to people being loaded onto trains is just a paradigmatic leap or two. if you have serious points to make and you want to be taken seriously try avoiding offensive rhetorical devices and forays into dystopian fantasyland.

                The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

                by Laurence Lewis on Wed Aug 01, 2012 at 09:22:11 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

        •  Apparently this lady is no false wall... (9+ / 0-)

          She has defended herself, and survived

          "The United States is a nation of laws: badly written and randomly enforced." -Zappa My Site

          by meagert on Tue Jul 31, 2012 at 08:36:11 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  This comment neatly exposes the (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Laurence Lewis, Deep Texan, indycam

        mindset that informs your entire diary.

        (Plus the Orwellian labeling of gun control advocates as the faux liberals.)

        Republican Healthcare Plan: Everyone will be encouraged to move to Chris Collins' district, where noone dies of cancer.

        by WisePiper on Tue Jul 31, 2012 at 08:35:12 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I'm sorry, what was that? (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Robobagpiper, Diane Gee, ER Doc

      What was the reason you gave for why people infantilize their political opposition?  I couldn't hear you over your infantilization of your political opposition.

  •  Non-violence as the solution. (11+ / 0-)
    and that since I was what they saw as an aberration, my death would have been better overall for society than allowing a homeowner the right to protect themselves.
    Gandhi had Subhas Chandra Bose as the alternative to peaceful transition of power.

    The Deacons for Defense and Justice, proved that you could negotiate with the SCLC and Doctor King, or you could just go about it the same ol' way, and achieve different than expected results.
    http://uncpress.unc.edu/...

    You cited another, one that doesn't match the Lifetime Television® script.

    These facts are upsetting to people.

    In the novel Illusions, Adventures of a Reluctant Messiah the "messiah handbook" has this tidbit:

    Argue for your limitations, and sure enough, they are yours.
    For too many, their closely held and deeply felt limitations are those held - or should be held - by the rest of the world.

    Don't cook, you're no Martha Stewart.
    Don't paint, you're no Rembrandt.
    Don't shoot, you're no Annie Oakley.

    Order out, call a decorator, and have an alarm system and saferoom installed in your home.

    As long at there's no repeat of a Katrina-like situation, all should be hunky-dory.

  •  you cite "black-on-black crime" (10+ / 0-)

    I'm familiar with the situation, being at one time "the only white dot on the street".

    As explained to me:

    The 5-O don't care 'bout no niggers.  Shoot a cracker, and they here all damn week.
    What the gentleman was saying:

    The police do not care about dead African-Americans.  They come, take a picture or five, and snatch-up the body.
    Yep.  Dead.  Shot, stabbed, whatever.  The M.E. will sort that out.  

    "Anyone see anything?  No?  We're outta here."

    Change that to a white man in a black neighborhood?  Police, M.E., TV crews.  All week long.

    Bad for business.  No business done with the police and media circus on the block all damn week.

    This, and a for-pay system of incarceration is how we value our young men of color.

    Oh, and they - being "Felons" have no legal access to firearms.

  •  The problem with "liberaloid" (7+ / 0-)

    Try Googling this one...the word is pretty much in the sole usage of the way-the-fuck-over-to-the-left crowd who sees Rachel Maddow as a centrist sellout.  It's a sneering, condescending, dismissive, and insulting word.

    I'm a gun owner.  In fact, I own several guns, and I shoot and hunt regularly.  I dislike the terms "gun nut" and "gun fetishist" and have dropped HR's on their usage because they're sneering, condescending, dismissive, and insulting.  Many other DKOS other gun owners and gun rights advocates have done the same thing...some of whom have tipped this diary.  There's a whiff of hypocrisy in the air tonight.

    Usage of this word detracts from what otherwise might have been a compelling and effective argument for sensible gun ownership rights.  What we have instead is another poke-in-eye session.  While eye-gouging might be satisfying, it isn't generally productive.

    "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win". Mohandas K. Gandhi

    by DaveinBremerton on Tue Jul 31, 2012 at 09:16:57 PM PDT

    •  agreed, way better off without it.. (5+ / 0-)

      otherwise  it has the hue of truth in a rant from a  woman with the experiences, illustrative.

      I was talking to a young real estate agent woman who had sent me video of a house that had sat for a long time in a hinky part of a hinky town...and I said "did you have anyone with you, you just walked up and unlocked the door, didn't knock, and went in...you're small, female, good looking and well dressed with a nice car, an inviting target...I am worried that you did that on my behalf and I'm glad you were ok"...

      she says "Oh I have a gun"

      says I "Oh."

      still I complained   "maybe snoop in the windows first, see if the door is jimmied before you go in "

      ahh, to be young and confidant, good luck to her....and me, uncle nannie to the world :>

       

      From those who live like leeches on the people's lives, We must take back our land again, America!...Langston Hughes

      by KenBee on Tue Jul 31, 2012 at 11:47:19 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  You have a valid point (7+ / 0-)

      I suppose my anger is born of having had a couple men tell me it would have been better for me to have been raped to death than have the right to defend myself.  They were like "Oh well, so in your instance you would have died, but so what?" "Guns should be banned anyway."

      It is a truly vindictive thing to read, having endured that, and then to step up and preach that I cannot be a leftist should I choose to keep that, knowing what I endured, knowing my husband recently died, and knowing I am alone in a house with a tweenager kid?

      It rankled.  

      I am not above hyperbole - in fact have been told here in the past that catchier titles gain views and how this piece or that piece would have garnered more reads had the title been more flashy.

      How many things make your rec list with things like "ROmne3y is a D@@che!"?

      Now that we have conceded the point on the title, may we go back to the actual CONTENT?

      •  Thanks, and we are discussing content (4+ / 0-)

        Emotionally charged words flavor the content and either invite or exclude, depending on how they are received.  A wider readership and receptiveness to your message would be a great thing; It's a shame to hobble the message in this manner.

        I certainly understand your point regarding those who would rather have you dead than admit you made effective defensive use of a firearm.  It's the same philosophy that refuses to acknowledge the reality of the current unemployment situation while bellyaching about welfare queens.  It's a mindset that would rather have a made-up bugaboo than a dose of reality.

        "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win". Mohandas K. Gandhi

        by DaveinBremerton on Wed Aug 01, 2012 at 05:51:20 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Excellent diary. (8+ / 0-)

    But I have a problem with "a cooling off period".  

    It is well documented that far too many people (mostly women) have been killed shortly after getting (or while waiting for) a restraining order on an abusive ex, neighbor or stalker.  'Cooling off periods' have never been shown to have lowered murder rates.  All they seem to do is leave people in need of effective defense, less capable of doing so.

  •  Cooling off period.... (5+ / 0-)

    If you haven't returned from a rage-blackout during the delay of...
    1 Leaving the scene that initiated the rage blackout
    2 Driving to the gun store
    3 Choosing your gun
    4 Filling out the form 4473
    5 Waiting while the background check is called in
    6 Paying for your purchase, plus ammo
    7 Loading a possibly unfamiliar gun in the car
    8 Driving back to the person that you want to kill
    9 Finding that person, in case they aren't exactly where you left them half an hour ago....

    Anyone who does go out and purchase a gun simply to immediately kill another has an anger management problem, and a 10 day waiting period is no more effective than a 30 minute delay during the purchase process.

  •  Tipped and recced. (8+ / 0-)

    Although, I have to agree with others, the diarist's choice of a rather colorful term may well have hurt her argument overall.

    Basically, it gave those who disagree a direction to attack from, where they could avoid the actual points made in the diary.  They can't legitimately attack the substance, this just gives them a seemingly reasonable complaint.

    Yes, I often dress as a pirate. Your point?

    by theatre goon on Wed Aug 01, 2012 at 03:59:36 AM PDT

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