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An Arizona businessman was fired for posting a video of himself going through the drive through and giving the employee a piece of his mind. Apparently it is okay to rant about taking away LGBT rights. But if you show support expect punishment for our corporate masters.

The actions of Mr. Smith do not reflect our corporate values in any manner. Vante is an equal opportunity company with a diverse workforce, which holds diverse opinions. We respect the right of our employees and all Americans to hold and express their personal opinions, however, we also expect our company officers to behave in a manner commensurate with their position and in a respectful fashion that conveys these values of civility with others.
I do wonder how many of their homophobic employees they have fired for going out on their own time to harass LGBT's? I have called them and asked them this. But I don't expect a call back.

You can have a go too:

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9:17 AM PT: Please let me make this clear since apparently no one commenting has ever worked a drive through lane. What this man said to this woman is NOTHING compared to the hourly humiliation and abuse that is heaped upon drive through employees. I'm glad you find the fact that drive through employees are treated this way appalling. And since comments can not be erased I expect each and every one of you complaining about how she was treated to post a diary on how we can empower employees so they will no longer be subject to these conditions.

This post is about how fighting for civil rights can get you penalized. Please stay on topic.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Well (2+ / 0-)

    it's a good thing I'm unemployed then, isn't it?

    Time for lunch!

    The Republican Party is now the sworn enemy of the United States of America.

    Listen to All Over The Place - we play all kinds of music!

    by TheGreatLeapForward on Fri Aug 03, 2012 at 08:29:25 AM PDT

  •  I agree -- that was perhaps a tad rude, but NOT (5+ / 0-)

    bullying.

    I'm sure people say way worse things over cold chicken...

  •  Please don't tell cashiers and servers (21+ / 0-)

    about the corporation.  They can't do anything about it.  This man was in fact pretty respectful and I don't think deserved a canning....BUT...if he was abusive, then oh yeah, he DEFINITELY would have deserved getting fired.

    But please.  DON'T deal with cashiers and waitstaff.

    Write a letter to home office.
    Protest outside the home office's doors.
    CALL the shareholders and top management and tell them what you think.

    But don't do this.  As much as I hate Chick-Fil-A and I will also never eat there, I'd never say something to someone at a window jsut trying to get through their day and pay their bills.

  •  I don't know Horace... (13+ / 0-)

    This is such a mess.

    Personally, I could agree with him until he did the "I don't know how you can live with yourself..." thing.

    These are young kids behind the window with no control.

    Wonders are many, but none so wonderful as man.

    by Morgan Sandlin on Fri Aug 03, 2012 at 08:37:34 AM PDT

  •  What a dick (13+ / 0-)

    I have pretty mixed feelings about this. Losing a job is a bit much, but it is really hard to stick up for this guy. Perhaps he was already on thin ice at his company and they just needed the excuse.

    •  At-will employment (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      erush1345, PSzymeczek, Neuroptimalian

      I don't think they need a reason in AZ to fire somebody.  Be a dick, lose your job.   Don't think it's fair?  Don't be a dick.

      •  Even at-will employers (0+ / 0-)

        want to find a reason. They are concerned about employee attitude and they need to fill a C-Level position.

        •  He was one of their top people. They had to fire (0+ / 0-)

          him.  Can you imagine a low-level employee getting fired if they had hung onto him?  "

          You hang onto CFO Smith, but fire me?"

          CFO has a lot of financial responsibility.  You really want to give that job to a guy who shows such an incredible lack of judgement?

          Dont Mourn, Organize !#konisurrender

          by cks175 on Sun Aug 05, 2012 at 07:52:39 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  So to you (3+ / 0-)

      it is just fine for Homophobes to beat and kill me. But if I complain about their ramping up stochastic terrorism to do so I am wrong.

      I'm glad I cleared that up.

      Education is a progressive discovery of our own ignorance.

      by Horace Boothroyd III on Fri Aug 03, 2012 at 08:48:03 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Dan Kathy is a dick. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      PSzymeczek

      That's who you were talking about, right?

      If you were talking about the guy in the video, then you're saying standing up for gay rights is being a dick.

      "I read this- Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand. I read every last word of this garbage, and because of this piece of $#!^ I'm never reading again!"-Officer Barbrady

      by Broke And Unemployed on Fri Aug 03, 2012 at 10:36:17 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The guy in the video was the dick, plain and (8+ / 0-)

        simple. Kathy's views are not the topic of this diary, this guy actions are the topic of this diary.  What he did was wrong and it was directed at the wrong person...period, end of story.  He knew when he pulled up that he was about to verbally assault a random drive thru clerk and had video in hand to record his cowardly deed.  I am certain he hoped that she would break down, perhaps cry, get mad and call him something, turn red and sweat and shiver or whatever so that "You Tube" could ruin her life forever.   What a dick.  

         I can't believe that young girl held it together so well and with a smile...I would have gone to jail.

        •  "Plain and simple" "End of Story" (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          PSzymeczek

          Always the same arguments corporate defenders and authoritarians use. What did he say that was offensive? That Chick Fil A is a hateful corporation? She didn't 'break down' because he didn't really say anything offensive. All he really did was annoy her. OH, THE HORROR!

          "I read this- Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand. I read every last word of this garbage, and because of this piece of $#!^ I'm never reading again!"-Officer Barbrady

          by Broke And Unemployed on Fri Aug 03, 2012 at 11:12:41 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Oh please. If you can't see how that girl did not (4+ / 0-)

            deserve a single syllable of his misplaced rant, nor did he have the right to video this unwelcome exchange, then I don't how else to explain it to you....it really should be that obvious.  

            He did zero to help his cause, he did nothing to further sympathy for a worthy fight...all he did was lose his own job for being a fool and an abusive one at that.

            •  A fool for standing up for what he believes in. (0+ / 0-)

              Got it. On a website about liberal activism.

              "I read this- Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand. I read every last word of this garbage, and because of this piece of $#!^ I'm never reading again!"-Officer Barbrady

              by Broke And Unemployed on Fri Aug 03, 2012 at 11:47:20 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Being a fool by reducing a worthy fight to the (3+ / 0-)

                level of random verbal assault...with no sane positive outcome of his dumb act.  

                 Let me ask you how you would feel about a video showing a red neck tea bagger driving thru a Starbucks window and videotaping himself degrading a 20 year old girl for 30 seconds about how she should be ashamed because she works for a company who gives money to support killing babies?  He then takes that video and loads it up on You Tube....you ok with that?

                Would you be appalled??  Shouldn't he be able to fight corporations in politics??  If he didn't grab her or yell, then does it make it ok?  He only told her how he feels, didn't he?

                No, that would make him a dick too....plain and simple.

          •  It's people like you who make fighting for the (0+ / 0-)

            cause so difficult.  You just can't help but encourage others to collectively shoot ourselves in the face.  With friends like you, who needs enemies?

            Dont Mourn, Organize !#konisurrender

            by cks175 on Sun Aug 05, 2012 at 08:03:26 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  This guy wasn't "standing up for gay rights." (4+ / 0-)

        You can't "stand up for gay rights" by being an asshole to an innocent employee who has nothing to do with the gay rights issue in the first place.

        If anything, behavior such of this harms the gay rights movement by reflecting poorly on our cause.  The vast majority of people frown upon being an ass to someone who doesn't deserve it.

        •  He's not being an ass. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          PSzymeczek

          Just stating facts. I guess everyone who does an act of protest against corporate-sponsored hate speech is an ass then.

          (predictable response will be "No, we didn't say that"...)

          "I read this- Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand. I read every last word of this garbage, and because of this piece of $#!^ I'm never reading again!"-Officer Barbrady

          by Broke And Unemployed on Fri Aug 03, 2012 at 11:32:35 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Yes, he was. (4+ / 0-)

            He was speaking at a minimun-wage employee (you, know those folks WE are supposed to champion) as if she were somehow responsible for or complicit in CFA's anti-gay actions, which she isn't.  She has no power or authority over CFA's beliefs, she is just trying to earn a living doing a job she probably doesn't enjoy, especially when some stranger drives up and harangues her over an issue that is completely outside of her world.

            If you can't see that this is horrible optics for the gay rights cause, then you'd best stay far, far away from any form of activism that involves appealing to the hearts and minds of the general public.  Because THIS kind of thing does not reflect well.  At all.

            •  You guys won't bully me away from (0+ / 0-)

              participating in the activism I choose. Your group always does that when you lose and argument. Oh, and I also help Obama's campaign, even though your pro-corporate group and others with your mindset don't want me there.

              I'm done posting in this diary before I get myself banned. I guess your group can go back to their regularly scheduled bullying.

              (predictable response: "It's not bullying standing up for an employee of a hateful corporation...")

              "I read this- Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand. I read every last word of this garbage, and because of this piece of $#!^ I'm never reading again!"-Officer Barbrady

              by Broke And Unemployed on Fri Aug 03, 2012 at 11:44:36 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  "Your group?" (7+ / 0-)

                What "group" am I part of?  I'm an individual expressing my personal viewpoint on this one particular instance of a guy being a dick to someone else, ostensibly to further gay rights.  As a gay person, I think I'm entitled to express my view that I found his behavior over-the-top and disrespectful to the drive-thru employee, and thus counter-productive to gay rights.  

                It's ironic you accuse anyone who doesn't agree with you of "bullying," when it is YOU and this guy in the video who are doing that.  YOU are bullying by insisting anyone who disagrees with you is some authoritarian corporate shill.  YOU are bullying by suggesting one can't disagree with your viewpoint in this one instance without having alterior motives.

                Moreover, by inventing (aka, lying about) our motivations, you actually engage in the most common tactic of someone who is losing an argument: making shit up.  Can't defend your position rationally?  Then make up the fiction that your opponents in argument are "authoritarian," or "shills," or "bullies."  I'd say the best indication as to who is "losing" this argument is the fact that this diary has minimal recs and overwhelmingly the posters are expressing the view that this guy's behavior sucked.  

                But yeah, go ahead and declare victory and run!

                •  I won't spend all day arguing (0+ / 0-)

                  with freaking liars and bullies like you and your group. I never "declared victory". And I'm not "running".

                  Continuing to allow you and your group (the group that always trolls any diary that criticizes corporate or any other type of authority) doesn't help any. Feel free to write another wall of text, but I won't read it, so it would only benefit others in your group.

                  "I read this- Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand. I read every last word of this garbage, and because of this piece of $#!^ I'm never reading again!"-Officer Barbrady

                  by Broke And Unemployed on Fri Aug 03, 2012 at 12:12:26 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Back up your assertions with some citations (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    erush1345, annecros

                    If you're going to call me a "freaking liar," go ahead and cite an actual lie.  You can't, because I haven't.  But you HAVE.  

                    You've engaged in lying by inventing my membership in this "group that always trolls any diary that criticizes corporate or any other type of authority."  Even if such a group exists here (and frankly, I doubt it's anything more than your fevered, paranoid invention), I certainly am not a part of any such thing, and I defy you to provide evidence proving such a ludicrous claim.

                    I know you won't read it, because you haven't read any of the complaints about this guy's actions, at least not seriously.  You've just assumed the worst intentions of those of us who don't like it and invented ulterior motives so you don't have the fact that maybe--just maybe--you're point of view is wrong on this one.  Being unable to stand disagreement is the true indicator of a bully, so that's all on you.

                    Your attitudes here are the very worst of progressivism:  knee-jerk responses to diagreement that involve character assassination of your opponent.  Never mind that everyone here is a Progressive who supports LGBT rights and better life for the working class and the poor--if they don't toe your line exactly, accuse them of being evil incarnate!

                    Pathetic.

              •  "your group"?? What is this today............ (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Boris Godunov, erush1345, annecros

                I have run across more people today that simply cannot tolerate any difference of opinion and it all surrounds this Chick Fil A situation.

                Odd.

                Wonders are many, but none so wonderful as man.

                by Morgan Sandlin on Fri Aug 03, 2012 at 12:12:26 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

  •  Vante - 'Diverse opinions are Ok as long as you (5+ / 0-)

    don't get any gay bashers POed at us. Cause prejudiced hateful assholes buy medical equipment too.'

  •  While I.. (5+ / 0-)

    ..respect the intention of your diary, I think it's time we let Chik-Fil-A go.

    Right wingers have let it go, because it served as nexus of their political stunt, hence it is of no more use to them.

    By Monday, Chik-Fil-A will return to it's time-honored staus of a shitty fast food franchise sequestered in a shitty business model run by a right wing fundie kook.

    You know how the right wing works:  They zero in on a manufactured outrage object for 72 hours, manipulate it to their ends,  then they move on.

    I say we move move on too.

    Rob not the poor, because he is poor: neither oppress the afflicted in the gate. ~ Proverbs 22:22

    by wyvern on Fri Aug 03, 2012 at 08:44:28 AM PDT

    •  The worm is starting to turn (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      cryonaut, cap76, annecros

      and not in our favor.  I'm encountering more and more instances of people who were neutral or fairly sympathetic on the issue now expressing exasperation and irritation at still hearing about it, and they're blaming out side.  It is indeed time to move on.

      There are better ways to champion our rights than harping on a private company's actions.  I have no intention of ever again gicing my $$ to CFA, but that's as much as we can do.  Move on.

  •  Dude (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    erush1345, cryonaut, Neuroptimalian

    responded to hate with hate.

  •  Corporations Pay People A Pittance In Wages (5+ / 0-)

    and they hide behind these first line employees who have to take the abuse caused by the corporation they work for.

    If Dan Cathy had any balls he would stand in the drive thru booth during this "Hate The Gays" days which he initiated.

    The Republican Party is Simply a Coalition of Greed and Hate

    by kerplunk on Fri Aug 03, 2012 at 08:50:05 AM PDT

  •  Considering that we're all screaming (10+ / 0-)

    about how the 1st Amendment protects you only from government intervention and not from the consequences of public reaction - don't you think that Mr. Smith here learned his lesson?

    Dude was a being a major dick - which is in his right to do so.

    He then posted the video of him berating some poor, minimum wage worker on Youtube. He bragged about being a dick.

    Company found out - and the inevitable happened.

    I would have fired the guy too.

    "How do you live with yourself/" Really?  She's a freaking fast food worker.

    Jesus.

    Power-Worshipping Fascist

    by campionrules on Fri Aug 03, 2012 at 08:57:25 AM PDT

  •  You neglect to mention (4+ / 0-)

    that this guy was the CFO of his company.

    This is pithy and humorous, and makes you like me even more.

    by pholkhero on Fri Aug 03, 2012 at 08:59:38 AM PDT

  •  Now if the guy went to corporate headquarters or (4+ / 0-)

    called them and vented, that would have been so much better. In this economy, many people have to take whatever job is open.  And that sometimes means someone, perhaps like this employee, had few other options for employment.  So I feel bad for this minimum wage employees, many without benefits, who have to take whatever job is out there even if the company stinks and yes, sometimes even if the company executives are assholes.

    I bet many of us have worked for right wingers at one time or another and some of us have worked for hatefu fundies.  But in some cases, we had few optons at the time if we wanted to keep from being homeless.

    Mr. Cathy and the haters are disgusting but I think this man speaking his mind is fine, but it would have been so much more effective if he had to told this to a reporter on Wednesday during that big CFA haters day as reporters were everywhere at many franchises reporting this story.

    REporters kept saying that few protestors were there Wednesday for them to talk to, this man should have been there to talk to reporters rather than some employee who makes shitty wages.

    Follow PA Keystone Liberals on Twitter: @KeystoneLibs

    by wishingwell on Fri Aug 03, 2012 at 09:02:07 AM PDT

  •  Newspapers and media outlets want to cover this (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    campionrules, erush1345, annecros

    and thus if the guy went to a local reporter to speak his mind, that would be what I would choose to do as at least around here and in many locations across the country, reporters said they want to hear from the other side who does not support Chick FA

    Follow PA Keystone Liberals on Twitter: @KeystoneLibs

    by wishingwell on Fri Aug 03, 2012 at 09:04:04 AM PDT

  •  One other way to get at them.... (0+ / 0-)

    Since Chick-fil-A sponsors a college football bowl game, and there is precedent for vacating the results of football games, why not just make a conscious decision that if we discuss college football, we specifically exclude the results and statistics from this bowl game from the discussion.

  •  As this diary is about (6+ / 0-)

    standing up for civil rights, I'm glad this stalwart defender has righteously railed against this terrible, terrible cashier of intolerance.  

    thankfully, due to his well-reasoned and lucid protest, chains everywhere are being broken!  

    I can only imagine it was either his robbing them of their water or the  youtube posting of his crusade that has made us all freer!!!

    This is pithy and humorous, and makes you like me even more.

    by pholkhero on Fri Aug 03, 2012 at 09:28:54 AM PDT

  •  Response to the update (4+ / 0-)

    Setting aside everything else - it's the method in which Mr. Smith went out to 'defend our civil rights' that is the problem.

    What he did doesn't help, is boorish and, in my opinion, is a detriment to our side's fight for LGBT rights.

    Power-Worshipping Fascist

    by campionrules on Fri Aug 03, 2012 at 09:43:00 AM PDT

  •  asdf (11+ / 0-)
    I'm glad you find the fact that drive through employees are treated this way appalling.
    I used to be a cashier and had to listen to rants all the time about every conceivable subject except anything I actually had any control over. The way he treated her was inexcusable. She wasn't being treated badly by management (in the video), she was being harangued and harassed by an ass of a customer. Downright shameful.

    I'm gay and I don't want low level Chik Fil A employees bullied on my behalf.

    While many minority groups are the target for discrimination, few face this hostility without the support and acceptance of their family as do many glbt youth.

    by azrefugee on Fri Aug 03, 2012 at 09:44:33 AM PDT

  •  First login in years (2+ / 0-)

    Just wanted to say how it's somewhat pathetic that the innate liberal tolerance of posters here is somehow sticking up for the worker.  Does anybody remember "you lie!"?  Turnabout is ALWAYS fair play.  End of story.  I actually read the crazy right-wing (yes--redundant now) blogs more than DKos.  They're not even playing the same game.  Truth is meaningless, and the false equivalence that Jon Stewart keeps pounding is tiring.  Watch some Bill Maher for the real deal.

    The sanity just isn't there, including even Jon Stewart!  To the protester--you are brave and awesome.  Chickens at their keyboards (apparently from both sides) don't have the guts you do.

  •  Not. My. Job. (5+ / 0-)
    And since comments can not be erased I expect each and every one of you complaining about how she was treated to post a diary on how we can empower employees so they will no longer be subject to these conditions.
    Not sure how you can not "subject an employee" to those conditions if they are working a drive-thru.  How can you make your customers not be assholes?  One way is if other companies fire their employees if they are dicks in the drive-thru..that could work.

    Minority rights should never be subject to majority vote.

    by lostboyjim on Fri Aug 03, 2012 at 10:04:54 AM PDT

    •  Indeed. (5+ / 0-)

      The notion that in order to validly point out that this guy was being a dick to a poor cashier who didn't deserve to be subjected to his behavior, we must therefore be demonstrated champions of drive-thru employees in general is some of the stupidest logic I've ever seen.

      It is perfectly valid to point instances of dickishness on a case-by-case basis.  That other people treat drive-thru employees like dirt for other reasons is entirely irrelevant.

  •  The best way to get at Chick-Fil-et (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Blue Republican

    Go into the restaurants and look for Health Code Violations and report them to your Health Department.

    The Mayors of Boston, Philly, and Chicago should just have sent in their Health Dept and closed their stores.

    On Health Inspections - they can ALWAYS find something.

  •  Meh, he was being an ass. (6+ / 0-)

    This isn't a video that is going to win us friends and supporters.  Most people would look at this and think the guy was a dick.  You'd have to have the PR sensibilities of a gnat to think this guy's behavior reflects well on those who protest CFA's actions against gay people.

    As for his being fired, I can remember many instances where we've supported the rights of employers to terminate employees who publicly display poor behavior, even when not related to their job duties.  Selective outrage over such things is hypocrisy.

  •  Sorry the authoritarians got here before I did. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Blue Republican

    I can't believe they're sticking up for Chick-Fil-A like this. What that guy did was commendable. He really wasnt mean to the drive thru girl at all.

    To everyone saying he was abusive or whatnot, I've worked at so many fast food/gas station jobs. What this girl had to hear is tame compared to working a midnight shift at Sheetz. Chick-Fil-A sponsors hate, and that is NOT ok.

    Great Diary, HB. Tipped and Reccd.

    (Those who are not in this diary to fling pies, then you can ignore the next part, I have to debunk some of the 5 or 6 arguments authoritarians always use.)

    We're not defending Chick-Fil-A
    Yes, you are, even if you don't mean to. You're saying this guy should just shut up and say nothing. We should be running Chick Fil A out of our towns. They finance hate groups. To many LGBT people have been hurt or killed because of hate stirred up by Chick-Fil-A sponsored groups. These groups would be unable to spread thiee lies without Chick Fil A money.

    The guy was mean and "boorish"
    Not really. He was only talking to her like 30 seconds, and this is tame compared to what a gay person goes thru every day.

    His actions aren't helping our cause
    Yes, they are. I know jobs are scarce right now, but it does help our cause to remind employees of hate-sponsoring corporations that their employer supports hate. Making it harder for them to find employees willing to work there sends a message. It does help our cause to keep the pressure on. What he did was tame compared to an O'Keefe or Breitbart from the other side.

    OK, I think I'm done.

    "I read this- Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand. I read every last word of this garbage, and because of this piece of $#!^ I'm never reading again!"-Officer Barbrady

    by Broke And Unemployed on Fri Aug 03, 2012 at 10:59:50 AM PDT

    •  "Authoritarians?" Please. (4+ / 0-)

      You also engage in the diarist's dishonest tactic of character assault on those who disagree that this was some sort of positive expression of gay rights advocacy.  Don't agree?  Oh, you MUST be an authoritarian NAZI!

      Specific refutations:

      We're not defending Chick-Fil-A
      Yes, you are, even if you don't mean to. You're saying this guy should just shut up and say nothing. We should be running Chick Fil A out of our towns.
      Bullshit.  Nobody said he should "shut up and say nothing."  Just because we express our belief that how he handled this particular act doesn't mean we can't think of a hundred other ways he could protest that don't involve being dickish to someone who doesn't deserve it.  There's the kiss-in today, for instance.  Or how about expressing his feelings to those people who actually are responsible for CFA's anti-gay actions?  Even addressing a manager instead of a drive-thru worker would have been less dickish.

      As for "running Chick-Fil-A out of our towns," the only legal way to do this is to boycott them and try to respectfully convince others to do the same.  Trying to shame them?  Not effective.

      The guy was mean and "boorish"
      Not really. He was only talking to her like 30 seconds, and this is tame compared to what a gay person goes thru every day.
      1. Yes, he was--while he started off polite and nice, he then tries to shame her for simply working at CFA.  He asks her, "how could you?" which suggests that her merely working there was somehow a betrayal of humanity.  Ludicrous and definitely dickish.  Nobody working a minimum-wage job deserves to be treated like that.  
      2. That his behavior towards her isn't as bad as what gay people go through "every day" (more hyperbole--as a gay man, I don't experience endless horrors day-in and day-out as you imply, and neither do most) is entirely irrelevant and poor reasoning.  Why?  Because by that reasoning, one could assert that whatever hate gay people endure was not a big deal because some people somewhere are treated worse.  The fact that some people are treated worse in no way excuses treating others badly.
      Yes, they are. I know jobs are scarce right now, but it does help our cause to remind employees of hate-sponsoring corporations that their employer supports hate. Making it harder for them to find employees willing to work there sends a message. It does help our cause to keep the pressure on. What he did was tame compared to an O'Keefe or Breitbart from the other side.
      You again minimize his dickishness and present a distorted account of his actions to make a point, thus setting up a strawman.  Maintaining pressure on CFA to change its attitudes does not require being a dick to its employees.  We're engaged in a campaign to win hearts and minds for gay rights.  We are not yet at the point where we can just point to anti-gay attitudes as indisputably bigoted and expect most of the public to agree.  So when we engage in dickish behavior like this guy did, we lose sympathy.  We really do.  And at this point in the struggle, accruing public sympathy is are single biggest objective.  In order to do that, we need to persuade with compassion, not harangue and try to shame people.  Changing public attitudes takes time, patience and empathy, not angry belittling.

      Breitbart and O'Keefe weren't trying to win people over to a civil rights cause, so comparing our struggle to their noxious attempts is senseless.  Moreover, you once again engage in the fallacy of the extreme, asserting that so long as our behavior doesn't match the worst kind of behavior, it's OK and even helpful.  That's just plain foolish.

  •  the chick-fil-a thing (9+ / 0-)

    is becoming a really stupid joke. And it's actually detracting from the cause of gay rights. People who would usually be sympathetic to gay rights are annoyed or worse. If you think public relations are not important in this battle, then sure continue berating cashiers and kissing in fast food joints.

    •  This idea that people are basing (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Broke And Unemployed

      their support of gay equality on the gay reaction to Chick-fil-A is just ludicrous. You either support gay equality or you don't. Nobody is going to say, "Hmmm...gays are being mean to poor Chick-fil-A...I don't think I support their rights anymore." Honestly, I'm sick of hearing this line of argument.

      Homosexuality is found in over 450 species. Homophobia is found in only one. Which one seems unnatural now?

      by Chrislove on Fri Aug 03, 2012 at 02:14:22 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Unfortunately, you are very much wrong. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        erush1345, annecros

        Winning hearts and minds isn't as simple as "you either support gay equality or you don't."  We don't need people to just agree with gay equality, we need them to be passionate about it.  And the fastest way to suppress that kind of passion is to have the movement come across as shrill.  

        Whether we like it or not, most people are indeed swayed by peer pressure, and they respond viscerally and irrationally to seeing behavior they don't like.  I've already seen sentiment on this very issue turn around dramatically on web sites.  Take the popular image sharing site, imgur:  when the controversy first started, comments supporting gay people were receiving huge support.  Now, the comments on the issue gaining the most support are the ones expressing exasperation with gay activists over the issue, as they're sick of hearing about it.  

        We can indeed overplay our hand in these kinds of things.  We ignore that at our peril (as Prop 8 showed more than amply).

        •  I do not believe for a second (0+ / 0-)

          that anybody is going to drop their support for gay civil rights because of the reaction to Chick-fil-A or because they saw a gay couple kissing in a CFA franchise. Do I think it's necessarily going to win support from people who weren't on our side? No, but that's not really what this is about. I know plenty of people who are sick of hearing about CFA. They still remain allies of the LGBT community. They're not going to stop being allies of the LGBT community. Were an anti-gay amendment to be on the ballot tomorrow, they'd vote against it in a heartbeat, I have no doubt.

          Also, quite frankly, some things are too important to wring our hands worrying about people getting sick of hearing about them.

          Homosexuality is found in over 450 species. Homophobia is found in only one. Which one seems unnatural now?

          by Chrislove on Sat Aug 04, 2012 at 08:30:18 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  You missed my point (0+ / 0-)

            I didn't say they'd change their mind on supporting gay civil rights (although, honestly, I think there a significant number of weak-minded people who might).  What I said was, it can prevent them from wanting to be champions for gay civil rights, which is what we really need.

            As NC and Prop 8 shows, it's not enough to have majorities merely agreeing that they support gay civil rights.  We have demonstrable cases where your assertion has been just plain wrong.  We need to get these people to turn out for initiatives to vote and speak out passionately for the cause.  This is particularly vital with young people, who are much more susceptible to tuning out activism on issue they actually support if it rubs them wrong.

            I agree there are things that are much too important to stop talking about them.  But CFA isn't one of those things.  It's fucking chicken sandwiches.

            •  I'm not sure how you'd measure (0+ / 0-)

              something like that. What counts as a "champion"? The people I know are gung-ho for gay equality because they know gay people on a personal basis. That hasn't changes and isn't going to change because they're sick of seeing CFA stuff in their newsfeed. If a "champion" is somebody who actively supports gay equality and would very likely come out to vote if our rights were under attack, I don't know anybody in my own life who has been changed from a "champion" to a "non-champion" by any of this.

              Also, my assertion was not that mere majorities in favor of civil rights translate into victory. As somebody who has been following and blogging about these issues for quite some time now, I obviously know that is not the case. My assertion was that nobody who was firmly on the side of LGBT people is going to be less on the side of LGBT people because of CFA updates invading their newsfeeds. I just don't believe that for a second. But if data or experience proves me wrong, I will certainly eat crow.

              And we'll have to disagree on the importance of CFA. This is not just about chicken sandwiches.

              Homosexuality is found in over 450 species. Homophobia is found in only one. Which one seems unnatural now?

              by Chrislove on Sat Aug 04, 2012 at 09:27:17 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

  •  A point. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    annecros

    How you fight for civil rights matters.  If your diary has to resort to reprimanding people who fundamentally agree with you, it's probably to time to change subjects.

    Now if only the anti-gun crowd would learn this lesson.

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