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Bibi-1

(David Grossman) said he feared that Netanyahu and Barak would bomb Iran partly out of a perceived strategic need to back up their threats with action, but also because of what he sees as Netanyahu’s sense of historic responsibility to save the “people of eternity.” “He has this idea that we are the people of eternity, am ha’netzach from the Bible, and our negotiations, as he sees it, are with eternity, with the primal currents of history and mankind, while the United States, with all due respect, is just another superpower like Rome or Athens or Babylon, and we’ve survived them all,” said Grossman. “I’m afraid that this way of thinking might encourage Netanyahu to take the step” of attacking Iran. The Nation
David Grossman, along with Amos Oz, is Israel's most prestigious writer and considered by many Israelis as the "conscience of the country". He has given an inteview in The Nation on Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu's rush to war with Iran which is terrifying. I find Grossman's insight into Bibi's mind endlessly frightening and disturbing, Up til now I had thought that Netanyahu was a common and garden variety thug... now I think he might be seriously insane

If Grossman is right, that Netanyahu's believes that Israelis are "the people of eternity", and that Israel's negotiations can only be with "eternity", (whatever that is) this means that Israel is governed right now by someone who is crazier than any Ayatollah in Iran... Frankly that idea of negotiating with the "primal currents of history and mankind" has a certain weird, Nietzschean-Wagnerean ring to it: the distilled, national-mystical, vapors of fascism.

So Israel, so small and vulnerable, is now apparently ruled by a madman.

This takes me to what I call "Israel's primal fallacy".

That fallacy is the proposition that the Jewish people will only be safe when they are gathered together in a land where they are the sole inhabitants and depend entirely on their own power to defend themselves and  that land must be in the tiny, biblical Israel.

I think if you proposed to the Jewish people's greatest enemy in history, the idea that half the Jewish people in the world should gather together in a very small area, a territory where they could be utterly annihilated in the space of a couple of hours, that monster would think it a brilliant idea: such a time saver.

Any infantryman will tell you that soldiers under fire should never bunch up, but rather spread out... that is a soldier's rule one. Not having crazy officers might be rule two.

Israel is breaking both rules.

My opinion is that the two greatest defenses ever possessed by the Jewish people, going all the way back to the days when Moses led them out of bondage in Egypt, are:

One: The United States Constitution, whose rules seem to be holding up better than the Bible's in the years since it was written.

and

Two: America's immense spaces.

In short I believe that the "promised land" of the Jews is the United States of America, where Jews can be as Jewish as they want (see Brooklyn's Hasidim) or as assimilated (see Noam Chomsky) as they wish and participate, à la carte, in  the mainstream of an amazingly varied human tapestry (see Walt Whitman) ... all in perfect safety.

Even the West Bank settlers (most of whom seem to already be US citizens) could make a pilgrimage to what I would call "eretz yiArizona", where they could keep their guns and try their luck at hassling Mexicans... America has something for everytbody... if you don't see what you want just ask.

Not only that, perhaps most importantly of all, the United States of America is probably the only country in the world that truly loves Jewish people, where they have actually created much of what the world knows and loves of America. What I am afraid of is that disasters flowing from the "people of eternity" mysticism could in any way sour that "promised land".

Cross posted from: http://seaton-newslinks.blogspot.com

 

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Comment Preferences

  •  The fanatical Shiite Twelver leadership of Iran (9+ / 0-)

    continuously and publicly threaten to destroy Israel.  They are fixated on the idea.  Netanyahu and the Israelis have to take this threat seriously, even if you don't.

  •  HR'd for ignorant and offensive meme's (15+ / 0-)

    What is with your obsession with Jews and Israel? Don't you have other things to worry about?

    "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

    by volleyboy1 on Fri Aug 03, 2012 at 03:04:26 PM PDT

  •  This user has a history of being a blatant (10+ / 0-)

    anti-Semite. Have a d0nut and may the banhammer fall on you soon.

  •  I wear a kippah srugah... (14+ / 0-)

    I am somewhere between Conservadox and Modern Orthodox.  This is a great country, but I am distinctly aware of the fact that I am different and that I am merely tolerated and not fully accepted.

    Yes, for Jews that choose to completely assimilate there is a greater degree of toleration that moves towards acceptance, if not outright acceptance.  However, for Jews such as me that is not the case.  We may well have a Jewish president one day, but he will not wear a kippah or she will not wear long skirts and a sheitel.  That is simple reality, and I acknowledge and accept this.

    Furthermore, Jews remain, by far, the biggest target of religiously-motivated hate crimes (I will not get into a discussion as to whether they should be classified as that, ethnic-based or sui generis).  Suffice to say, irrespective of how one believes those hate crimes should be described, we are grossly disproportionate victims of hate crimes.

    No, this country is not the promised land.  It is a great land.  I am very proud to be an American.  But hatred still exists here and I remain keenly aware that as long as I adhere to my cultural and religious traditions I remain, to some extent, an outsider.

    Enjoy your pre-Shabbat pastry from this observant Jew.

    Enacting our agenda requires winning elections. Oh, and me on Facebook.

    by Mets102 on Fri Aug 03, 2012 at 03:07:07 PM PDT

  •  HR'd for anti-semetism (10+ / 0-)

    And, I notice the diarist isn't commenting in his own diary... I guess it's because he doesn't want to pick up even more donuts.

    Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. ~ Yoda Political Compass: -8.50, -6.46

    by Cinnamon on Fri Aug 03, 2012 at 03:12:38 PM PDT

  •  Netanyahu (11+ / 0-)

    is a secular garden variety ass.  No apocalyptic stuff - he's all about money and power, just like the average ruling class tool.

  •  Not anti semetic at all.... (2+ / 5-)

    It is an unvarnished opinion which is far from forbidden on this site, I hope.  There were those in high places, including General George C.Marshal whoopposed American recognitionof Israel in 1948 for reasons close to what is presented here.

    As far as the "madman" appellation for Bibi, that is rather questionable as this term is an individual reference.  Many national myths are irrational, including different incarnations of those of this country.  The promulgators of them are not considered crazy.

    But the writer made his point and ruffled some feathers, and I applaud this.

  •  I can certainly understand why this (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Rustbelt Dem, zemblan, Smoh, jlms qkw

    ...type of commentary is forbidden here.

    But can someone point to the most egregious offence?

    I'm creating an ordered list for the FAQ.

  •  Oh good grief. (7+ / 0-)

    As Pauli said, this isn't even wrong.

    I've been thinking about commenting on this for a couple of hours.  It's dangerous to intrude on I/P debates.

    But this isn't really I/P.  It's just weird and uncomprehending anti-semitism.

    The author probably thinks he's all in favor of Jews and doesn't understand why this diary is so incredibly offensive.

    Nonetheless, it's a troll diary, as we number these things here.

    FWIW, this diary caused me to have more sadness than anger.

    "The country is governed for the richest, for the corporations, the bankers, the land speculators, and for the exploiters." Helen Keller (1911) (quoted by Meteor Blades on 8/2/12)

    by Timaeus on Fri Aug 03, 2012 at 04:44:42 PM PDT

  •  Wow I don't know where to start with this! (8+ / 0-)

    How about this paragraph:

    That fallacy is the proposition that the Jewish people will only be safe when they are gathered together in a land where they are the sole inhabitants and depend entirely on their own power to defend themselves and  that land must be in the tiny, biblical Israel.
    First of all Israel is not solely inhabited by Jews. Over 20 percent of Israel's population is filled by Arabs.

    Secondly, when the Jews were expelled from Arab lands where were they supposed to go?

    In 1945, there were more than 870,000 Jews living in the various Arab states. Many of their communities dated back 2,500 years. Throughout 1947 and 1948 these Jews were persecuted. Their property and belongings were confiscated. There were anti-Jewish riots in Egypt, Lybia, Syria, and Iraq. In Iraq, Zionism was made a capital crime. Aproximately 600,000 Jews sought refuge in the State of Israel. They arrived destitute, but they were absorbed into the society and became an integral part of the state. In effect, then, a vertible exchange of populations took place between Arab and Jewish refugees. Thus, the Jewish refugees from Arab countries became full Israeli citizens whereas the Arab refugees who fled their homes in Palestine, remained “refugees“ unaided by the neighboring Arab countries.
    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...
    They certainly were not safe as native inhabitants elsewhere in the Middle East.

    Now this is just laughable:

    In short I believe that the "promised land" of the Jews is the United States of America,
    So the Chinese don't need China because they have ChinaTown in America. So the promise land of the Chinese is the U.S.A.  Would you accept that logic?

    I am a strong supporter of the Palestinians and Palestinian rights, but that does not mean we should deny the Jews their legal right of self-determinism. Just as we should not deny the Palestinians their legal right of self-determinism.

    •  Very well said Shawn... (4+ / 0-)

      "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

      by volleyboy1 on Fri Aug 03, 2012 at 06:41:04 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Demographically and academically speaking (0+ / 0-)

      ...many of us got a foothold at about the same period on a continent and in a nation where there were no prior owners  to stop us. Thus, people do tend to make assumptions. Similar maps exist for several ethnic groups.

      Full size = http://i173.photobucket.com/...

      •  That's true. But I was making a different point (4+ / 0-)

        The point I was conveying was that ethnic groups have formed various communities and enclaves throughout America. For instance, the Arabs in Dearborn, Michigan, the Indian Subcontinent immigrants and ethnic groups in Jackson Heights, New York.

        If we were to take the logic expressed in this diary i.e., the Jews have America or say even Brooklyn, we must be consistent and say that similarly the Arabs have Dearborn and the Indians Jackson Heights, so no need for an independent nation called India, or Lebanon or (fill in Arab country), just as there is no need for an independent Jewish state in the ME (as this diary suggests).

        Now that would be an absurd belief to hold. It would mean all the nations and all the peoples of the world belong in the U.S.A and Europe, Asia, Africa, Latin America should simply be deserted and void. It's a ridiculous assumption.

        •  In the context of the Italians (0+ / 0-)

          ...Irish, Jews, Scandinavians, Germans, and Anglos -- all established enduring communities throughout America from the mid 1800s --communities that remain vibrant and a part of American history to the present day. All ethnicities that I have mentioned have pursued their happiness and developed a strong sense of security and deep feelings of "homeland" here in America. They would all tell you that.

          Indeed, this is their homeland, and they are welcome. No one is trying to disenfranchise any of these ethnic peoples -- or those they sponsor for inclusion in the United States of America. This I know first hand because my people are among them.

          •  Of course, I understand the point you make. (0+ / 0-)

            Isn't it marvelous to have a discussion that leads to broader insights?

            By the way, can you point me to Mr. Seaton's anti-semetic works? Since he is a widely published journalist and social intellectual, the internet must be full of these horrid things.

            One would not want to ideate with such a person for the edification of all readers. That could be a bad thing. Readers should only see the discussion shut down by the authorities. That's all they need to know about the subject. Am I right?

            •  I never said Mr. Seaton was an anti-semite (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              FrugalGranny, volleyboy1, hester, Cinnamon

              I hardly use that term. If I recall correctly I only called two people on the DKos an Anti-Semites personally. One was a ZOG conspiracy theorist (later banned and his diary deleted ) and the other insinuated that Jews are not really Americans.

              Whether or not Mr. Seaton is an Anti-Semite does not concern me. I have only come to refute his illogical and non-factual statements.

              If you look at my first comment on this diary I corrected a false statement. Mr. Seaton said:

              That fallacy is the proposition that the Jewish people will only be safe when they are gathered together in a land where they are the sole inhabitants and depend entirely on their own power to defend themselves and  that land must be in the tiny, biblical Israel.
              Now this is not true because, over 20 percent of Israel's population is composed of Arabs. So the Jews do not have sole possession of Israel.

              The second remark I made in my first comment was addressing this sentence from Seaton:

              In short I believe that the "promised land" of the Jews is the United States of America,
              The Jews do not claim that America is the promised land of the Jews and it is not Mr. Seaton's job to make that claim for them because, the Jews have a legal right to self-determinism.

              Now the Jews it is true have communities in America. But so do the Chinese. That's why I said in my first comment does that mean the Chinese do not need China because the Chinese have Chinatown? If the answer is no, then let's be consistent and give the Jews the same respect and the same rights we give every other human being.

            •  Because you asked. (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              volleyboy1, hester, Cinnamon

              Can you point me to Mr. Seaton's anti-semetic [sic] works?"

              Actually it's more because I was curious.

              He does have a history of, at the least, obsession with the "Jewish lobby" and Israel's "ethnic cleansing" and other such things, going back at least to 2006. (Warning: includes a link from a Forbidden Place. For educational purposes only.)

              http://seaton-newslinks.blogspot.com/...
              http://mondoweiss.net/...
              http://walt.foreignpolicy.com/...

              This quote from a 2011 column is certainly interesting.

              What Israel and friends of Israel should be concerned about is that the number of people in the "west" who are thoroughly sick of Israel is growing exponentially. The problem is that the people now in power in Israel believe that everyone who isn't Jewish, if you only scratch the surface, is a default antisemite anyway and it is naive to try to conform to their hypocritical rules of conduct.

              Of course, in the end, this is a self-fulfilling prophecy.[...]
              Finally, people will have had enough and no matter how much military might or political leverage is employed, universally adverse opinion reaches a tipping point. People will simply refuse to swallow any more. At that point things begin to move very quickly and no amount of hasbara will hide  the simple reality of an apartheid rogue state, armed with atomic weapons, that has managed to unman the American political class.

              http://seaton-newslinks.blogspot.com/...

              Of course Seaton's writings on these and other topics may just be cosmically wrong and tone deaf. Like Seaton's Qaddafi apologia that predicted the rebels would be doomed and we shouldn't support them for a million reasons and so forth:
              http://dagblog.com/...

              •  Ethnic cleansing doesn't go in quotes (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Shawn Russell

                since 700,000 Palestinians were ethnically cleansed in 1947-48, and it continues today.

                Are you aware that Nakba denial is a no-no here, just as Holocaust denial is?

                Pluto, don't forget that one for the FAQs.

                Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

                by Flyswatterbanjo on Fri Aug 03, 2012 at 11:01:10 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Yes it does in this case (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  RedPencil, hester, zemblan

                  Don't forget to include in the FAQ - shilling for the anti-Semites.

                  "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

                  by volleyboy1 on Fri Aug 03, 2012 at 11:51:27 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  It is in quotes (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  volleyboy1, Cinnamon, zemblan

                  and not scare quotes, because it is a quotation from Mr. Seaton. It's in my link to his comment on a Walt article. It refers to Israel's alleged future plans & not its creation in 1947-48

                  The full text is as follows:

                  I think that the Israelis are planning on ethnic cleansing and are just waiting for the right moment to do it.
                  This is certainly some interesting speculation by the author. Presenting it WITHOUT quotes would be misleading.
                  •  It's not really interesting at all, and I'm not (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Shawn Russell

                    sure why you think so.

                    Israeli leaders (and Zionist leaders before the creation of Israel)  made it pretty plain they used ethnic cleansing to achieve the state. Why is speculation that they would use it again unreasonable?

                    Theodor Herzl:

                    We shall have to spirit the penniless population (the Arabs) across the border ... while denying it any employment in our own country.
                    David Ben-Gurion:
                    I favor partition because when we become a strong power we will abolish partition and spread throughout Palestine.

                    and

                    We will expel the Arabs and take their place.

                    Moshe Dayan:
                    we have no solution, you [the Palestinians] shall continue to live like dogs, and whoever wishes may leave, and we will see where this process leads

                    Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

                    by Flyswatterbanjo on Sat Aug 04, 2012 at 02:48:09 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

      •  yes. some Jews luckily happened to find (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        volleyboy1, Cinnamon

        a culturally Christian nation where they could live comfortably.

        Why should Judaism be practically the only major religion without a de-facto state?  Christians have several--Muslims have several--Buddhists...Hindus....others.

        Hell--even the Mormons have Utah, for all intents and purposes.

        What is about Judaism that precludes them from having an ethnic homeland as well?

        •  Is there some reason you think the Jews (0+ / 0-)

          (or anyone) should get a pass for putting a state on other people's land through massive ethnic cleansing, colonization, aggressive wars and occupation that continue to this day?

          That is the problem, not that everyone's against the Jews having a state for some strange reason.

          Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

          by Flyswatterbanjo on Sat Aug 04, 2012 at 02:52:39 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  perhaps if you recognized that the Jews are (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            JNEREBEL

            not the sole perpetrators of discord in the region I would be a bit more inclined to take your postings in this regard seriously.

            In any case, states on other people's lands cause problems.  But they exist time and again throughout history (see, oh, the U.S.).  

            And it's not just the fault of the Jews that they and the  Palestinians failed to live harmoniously.  I mean--the Jews of E. Jerusalem were ethnically cleansed in the late 40s, were they not?

          •  plus I note that you ignore (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            JNEREBEL

            things like...oh, the war against Israel the day after it was founded, or the fact that groups like Hamas and Islamic Jihad are kind of assholish sometimes, or that a  minuscule group of people all but exterminated/expelled from Europe subsequently faced an entire Arab world that was a bit less than welcoming...

          •  Oh you mean land that the Jews bought (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            JNEREBEL

            from the Turks who ruled the area, or were granted by the Mandate from the British who ruled the area or maybe you are talking the land lost in the Arab War of Aggression (the Israeli War of Independence) in 1948.

            Is that what you are talking about?

            "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

            by volleyboy1 on Sat Aug 04, 2012 at 03:33:57 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  shawn, in fact the Jewish population of Lebanon (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      David Seaton

      INCREASED after 1948. Jews from other Arab countries went there because Lebanon welcomed them and because they were ARAB Jews. Their culture was Arab and their language was Arabic. And the Jewish population didn't decrease until the 1970s when civil war broke out in Lebanon.

      So it's not fair to say "they certainly weren't safe as native inhabitants elsewhere in the Middle East."

      Second, the reason your China/Israel analogy doesn't hold is that Jews have attempted to exercise their self-determination on a land that belonged to another people. The fact that Jewish kings ruled the area for 150 years thousands of years ago, and that there was a small continuous presence of Jews there doesn't really cut it.
      P.S. the Jewish Virtual Library is not exactly an unbiased source.

      Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

      by Flyswatterbanjo on Sat Aug 04, 2012 at 12:00:13 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  From what I've read the majority of Lebanese Jews (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        RedPencil, Cinnamon, JNEREBEL

        left in 1967. The Lebanese civil war was in 1975 onward.

        When Christian Arabs ruled Lebanon, Jews enjoyed relative toleration. In the mid-50’s, approximately 7,000 Jews lived in Beirut. As Jews in an Arab country, however, their position was never secure, and the majority left in 1967.
        http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...
        You claim that JVL is biased so therefore I would like a link, which supports your claim to see if what you say is factual.

        My friend, let me quote Norman Finkelstein:

        But the law is clear. The settlements are illegal, that’s correct. East Jerusalem is occupied Palestinian territory, that’s correct, the West Bank and Gaza are occupied Palestinian territory, that’s correct, but it’s also correct that Israel is a state. That’s also the law. If you want to use the law as a weapon, to influence public opinion, you can’t be selective with the law. You can’t say, I have the right to  walk at the green, but I’m kind of agnostic at the red. No. If you have the right to walk at the green, it’s because you have an obligation to stop at the red.
        http://hurryupharry.org/...
        Israel is a state and that is something that all people will have to accept. It is a member of the UN and it is recognized by the majority of the nations of the world. That will not change, and it is futile arguing otherwise.
        •  I should have been more precise. (0+ / 0-)

          Yes, many Jews left in 1967, but they left en masse during the civil war.

          Here are some links:

          Lebanon then was something of a haven for Jews, some of whom were the descendants of those who had fled the Spanish inquisition; it later served a similar role for refugees from Nazi Germany. With ``no history of anti-Jewish tensions,'' it was the only Arab country whose Jewish population rose after Israel's creation in 1948, according to Kirsten Schulze, a lecturer at the London School of Economics and author of ``The Jews of Lebanon.''
          By the mid-1960s, there were as many as 22,000 Lebanese Jews, said Arazi, 65. In addition to heading the Jewish Community Council he owns a food-machinery business with 1,000 customers.

          ``Christians, Muslims and Jews were all living together when I was growing up,'' said Liza Srour, 57. ``Whenever there was a war with Israel, or tension, the government used to provide protection for us.''
          That changed with the nation's 1975-1990 civil war, as Jews fled the violence triggered by rivalries among the nation's Christian, Muslim and Druze factions and emigrated to Europe, North and South America.

          Bloomberg
          Lebanon's Jewish community once numbered 22,000, and Judaism is still recognized as an official religion in the country. But many Jews fled during the civil war, and now Lebanon is home to less than 200. A diaspora of 2,000 lives between Lebanon and other countries. Some of them are members of Maghen-Abraham's Facebook fan page.
          LA Times

          Do you agree then that it's not true that there was no where for Arab jews to go in 1948, right?

          Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

          by Flyswatterbanjo on Sat Aug 04, 2012 at 03:09:43 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Oh so... Lebanon would have taken 900,000 (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Shawn Russell, JNEREBEL

            Jews forced from the Arab World? Good to know (/snark)

            Are you joking?

            Let's look at reality from 1948 shall we:

            First of all... it goes without saying that Lebanon officially declared itself at War with Israel in 1948.

            Second... Lebanon apparently did have an increase in population after 1948 from where it increased by 2,000-4,000 (80% of this population is gone now)

            However, negative attitudes toward Jews increased after 1948, and, by 1967, most Lebanese Jews had emigrated—to Israel, the United States, Canada, and France. In 1971, Albert Elia, the 69-year-old Secretary-General of the Lebanese Jewish community was kidnapped in Beirut by Syrian agents and imprisoned under torture in Damascus along with Syrian Jews who had attempted to flee the country. A personal appeal by the U.N. High Commissioner for Refugees, Prince Sadruddin Agha Khan to the late President Hafez al-Assad failed to secure Elia's release.
            ALSO, Jews received much more tolerance under the Christian ruled Lebanese government and as many articles note it was all relative to other Arab nations. Are you actually going to maintain that this was more tolerance than could be found in Israel?

            Sorry but if you are going to try to advocate against the need for Israel expect that reality might be going against you.

            "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

            by volleyboy1 on Sat Aug 04, 2012 at 03:31:27 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  You misrepresented my words (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            JNEREBEL, volleyboy1

            I cited the fact that the majority of Jews left Lebanon before the 1975 war. They left in 1967.

            And they left for a reason, which I will explain below.

            It is true that Lebanon experienced an increase of the Jewish population (I just found out) during 1948. However, that did not last long.

            Let me cite what Volley has already cited:

            However, negative attitudes toward Jews increased after 1948, and, by 1967, most Lebanese Jews had emigrated—to Israel, the United States, Canada, and France
            http://en.wikipedia.org/...
    •  The American idea and Zionism are direct rivals (0+ / 0-)

      As far as I am concerned the USA and Zionism are direct rivals... incompatible when you explore their ideologies. Certainly the American traditions are not amenable to ethnic exclusivity.

      An American Jew, Emma Lazarus, wrote these famous lines:

      The New Colossus

      Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,

      With conquering limbs astride from land to land;

      Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand

      A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame

      Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name

      Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand

      Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command

      The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.

      "Keep ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she

      With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,

      Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

      The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

      Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,

      I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

      Emma Lazarus, New York City, 1883

      That is probably the best summing up of what I mean by "promised land".
  •  How nice! (4+ / 0-)
    In short I believe that the "promised land" of the Jews is the United States of America
    I believe Christopher Nolan's next movie should be "King Lear."
  •  How many of you who have hide rated this post (0+ / 0-)

    followed the link to David Grossman's article?

    Others have simply gotten old. I prefer to think I've been tempered by time.

    by Just Bob on Fri Aug 03, 2012 at 06:39:21 PM PDT

    •  I just did but do you mean (6+ / 0-)

      Larry Derfners article about Grossman?

      Of course the idiot.... er I mean author of the diary left out this paragraph from the Nation article..

      Israel,” said Grossman, “is a deeply traumatized community that finds it very difficult to separate between real dangers and echoes of past traumas, and sometimes I think our prime minister fires himself up in mixing these real dangers with those echoes from the past.”
      and this:

      “We are dealing here with the most crucial existential problem that the State of Israel may ever have faced in all its history,” he said, “and most people are reluctant to express their opinions because they feel they just don’t have all the necessary information.
       

      “We are dealing here with the most crucial existential problem that the State of Israel may ever have faced in all its history,” he said, “and most people are reluctant to express their opinions because they feel they just don’t have all the necessary information.

      “Remember,” he said, “we are talking about fanatic, fundamentalist leaders in Iran who have declared openly that they want to eradicate Israel (vb1 emphasis). And they may come into possession of nuclear bombs. It’s important to face the complexity of this dilemma—it’s not an abstract moral debate, but something very, very concrete.”

      I guess the author of the diary missed this from Grossman as well in his effort to paint Israel and Netanyahu in the worst light possible.  

      "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

      by volleyboy1 on Fri Aug 03, 2012 at 06:49:16 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Thank you for the correction. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        raincrow

        It is Larry Derfners' article.

        Truth be told, I would much rather discuss that article than this post. The diarist  seems to have taken a flight of fantasy triggered by the word "existential." That alone isn't sufficient to label him antisemitic.

        I read a couple of other offerings from the diarist before posting and this is definitely not his best effort.

         

        Others have simply gotten old. I prefer to think I've been tempered by time.

        by Just Bob on Fri Aug 03, 2012 at 07:01:35 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Are there any other hide raters who have followed (0+ / 0-)

    Others have simply gotten old. I prefer to think I've been tempered by time.

    by Just Bob on Fri Aug 03, 2012 at 07:29:34 PM PDT

  •  I didn't think so. So now are there any of the (0+ / 0-)

    hide raters who would care to write a serious and thoughtful commentary based on that article?

    Here's the link again:
    http://www.thenation.com/...

    Others have simply gotten old. I prefer to think I've been tempered by time.

    by Just Bob on Fri Aug 03, 2012 at 07:50:13 PM PDT

    •  What and give Seaton and his anti-Semitic (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      zemblan, FrugalGranny, mookins, Cinnamon

      nonsense creedance? No thanks.

      I read Derfners article and I would discuss it in another forum but not here in this shithole.

      BTW Bob... Just because no one is answering you or wants to engage in discussion in this particular trainwreck doesn't mean people didn't read it or want to discuss it. It simply means people (myself included) don't want to dignify this rollicking piece of shit with a serious discussion.

      IF you would like to discuss this, write a diary centered around it, leave out the anti-Semitism and speculation that PM Netanyahu is insane and discuss what Derfner is talking about in his article. Probably would be an interesting discussion. BUT THIS... this is not the place to have that.

      "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

      by volleyboy1 on Fri Aug 03, 2012 at 08:09:03 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  If this forum is a shithole (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        David Seaton

        what are you doing here? I'm trying to elevate the discourse. It seemed to me that no one commented on the diary within the context intended.

        If your reference was to this diary, fine. Write another diary.

        As for me writing a diary, no, I'm not a writer. But, like you, I think there could be some interesting discussion based on that Nation article. Here's that link again:
        http://www.thenation.com/...

        Others have simply gotten old. I prefer to think I've been tempered by time.

        by Just Bob on Fri Aug 03, 2012 at 08:16:57 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Bob.. this calls out for the community to (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          FrugalGranny, livosh1, Cinnamon

          denounce this.

          If this forum is a shithole what are you doing here?
          I am resisting the racism that is present in this diary
          I'm trying to elevate the discourse. It seemed to me that no one commented on the diary within the context intended.
          As I said there is no reason to elevate discourse and give this diary legitamacy. It deserves none.
          If your reference was to this diary, fine. Write another diary.
          Why? I am not the one who is calling for us to discuss Derfners article. You want to discuss it... so you should write the diary.
          As for me writing a diary, no, I'm not a writer.
          You are doing fine here. You don't have to keep posting links over and over again. We can see the links both here and in the diary.

          My advice is simply put up what you think is relevant here and then put down your opinion. As long as it doesn't include "Teh crazy" speculation and trading on anti-Semitic memes, you should be fine.

          "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

          by volleyboy1 on Fri Aug 03, 2012 at 08:39:55 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Drowing out discussion is not intelligent (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    arodb

    It seems the aim of several commentators here is to simply make any discussion of Israel and it relation to the USA impossible.

    The idea that any questioning of Israel and Zionism is antisemitism is absurd. Ask Phil Weiss

    All this needs to be discussed most urgently. That was the importance of Thomas Friedman's column.

    If Bibi starts this war with Iran and it brings down the economy, things may happen and things may be said that we will all regret. Better to talk now than when it is too late.

    •  Misspelling "drowning" isn't that bright either (0+ / 0-)
      •  Hmmm... strange response to yourself... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        volleyboy1

        This almost sounds like someone else responding to your spelling error.

        Why is that?

        If you play Microsoft CD's backwards, you hear satanic things, but that's nothing, because if you play them forwards, they install Windows.

        by Unit Zero on Sat Aug 04, 2012 at 09:18:05 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Seaton... I have to ask you something (4+ / 0-)

      What is it that makes you hate us so much? What did Jews or Israel ever do to you that would twist you like this? Is it, like a guy I met in Mexico on vacation who didn't know I was Jewish, that you think we run the world? Or is it like my neighbor, who also didn't know I was Jewish, who told me that he didn't like Jews because he felt we were always hiding something? Is it either of those reasons.

      Seriously, I have always wanted to know what makes a person so proud of their prejudice that they feel they have to broadcast it?

      As for Phil Weiss... AHAHAHAHAHAHA - not a great example of anything.

      But this...

      If Bibi starts this war with Iran and it brings down the economy, things may happen and things may be said that we will all regret. Better to talk now than when it is too late.
      Oh... stop with the fear mongering. If you think that Israel would "go" without the U.S. go ahead, you are seriously smoking something strong.

      As for what may be said... you have pretty much said most of it here and in your other diary or as we see from the Red Pencil's links in other places. We have had to deal with your kind before. This is nothing new.

      BUT I am curious Seaton.... What do you think of President Ahmadinejhad's latest channeling of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and calling for Iran to annihilate the "Zionist Regime". Is that all cool with you?

      "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

      by volleyboy1 on Sat Aug 04, 2012 at 12:20:33 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I don't hate Jewish people (0+ / 0-)

        I lived in Israel for over a year, working as a photojournalist when I was in my 20s. I had a fantastic girlfriend who I loved very much and her friends were my friends... I could have easily had sons and daughters fighting today in the IDF... But Israel was different then, more like a socialist country. My girlfriend grew up in the Hashomer Hatzair... and she lives in Paris now. Back then I couldn't imagine that people like Netanyahu would ever govern Israel. But decades of occupation have brought out the dark side, the worst in Israel.

        I have come to the conclusion that Zionism is a horrible trap -- moral and physical -- for the Jewish people... my idea is closer to that of the ultra-orthodox who think that the Messiah is the only one who could pull it off. That is a very poetic way of expressing how I see it.

        I'm against Zionism not because I hate the Jews, quite the contrary.

        You can take all this any way you want... I could care less.

        •  Paternalistic bs (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          volleyboy1

          Bigots love to soften their hate by claiming they know what is best for the group they hate. African Americans hear it all the time and have for centuries. Same with women.

          Also, when you have to say "I don't hate Jewish people," it suggests otherwise. Kind of like, "I have plenty of black friends."

          I cannot stand Bibi Netanyahu. I find him almost as distasteful as people who cannot see that there is a world of difference between criticizing the Israeli government and its policies, and questioning whether Israel should exist in the first place.

    •  *rolling eyes* (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      volleyboy1, RedPencil, lincolnliberal
      The idea that any questioning of Israel and Zionism is antisemitism is absurd.
      And who, specifically, at DailyKos has said this, or defended it?

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