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In 2000 they stole the election via Florida stopping the count, illegally.

In 2004 they stole the election via some vote counting machine sabotage, as I understand it.

Not sure why they were not able to steal the election in 2008.

In 2012, I understand that Obama is pulling big enough leads in battle ground states to nullify the voter ID baloney. I also understand that the courts are backing down some of the voter ID laws.

I also understand that Obama's electoral count and popular vote tallies are good enough to win and are getting better.

I also understand that we are putting on a strong GOTV effort.

Assuming what I've said above is more or less correct, it seems that they only have one more option to steal the election.

All they have to do is to rig the vote counting machines in a handful of battle ground states and they win.

Please explain to me if and or how I'm wrong about this.

Is this a risk and if so, how big a risk?

Is OFA aware of this risk?  Is there anything anyone can do to minimize the risk?

What am I missing here?

Poll

Do you think voting machine sabotage is a risk in the 2012 presidential election?

1%1 votes
11%10 votes
10%9 votes
20%18 votes
55%48 votes

| 86 votes | Vote | Results

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Comment Preferences

  •  You beat me to it. . . (5+ / 0-)

    I was composing a similar diary.  It seems the Republicans don't seem to care that their campaigns are flawed and their convention was a freak show.  It's as if they have some belief that the actual perceptions of voters don't matter much.

    They control 90% of the voting machines:

    http://www.indybay.org/...

    I hope that WE'RE WRONG, don't you?

    •  yikes, that's an awful article (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Lujane

      I would encourage you to review the history of bannings for CT before composing your diary.

      It seems the Republicans don't seem to care that their campaigns are flawed and their convention was a freak show.  It's as if they have some belief that the actual perceptions of voters don't matter much.
      ? How many hundreds of millions of dollars of not-caring is that?
      They control 90% of the voting machines:
      In a sense, it's worse than that: the documented vulnerabilities in the voting machines are many, varied, and strictly non-partisan. On the other hand, it is far from clear that it matters whether the owners of ES&S are Republican, Democratic, or whatever.

      Somewhat arbitrarily quoted from your link:

      Five times as many Democratic as Republican politicians have died in plane crashes.
      Mmmmmmm.

      If you really want to bring this stuff, you'd better really bring it, complete with actual supporting evidence. Credulously posting external links won't cut it.

      (I could wade into some of the other stuff, but there would have to be a point. The opinions of "Ethics" on indybay.org don't intrinsically interest me.)

      Election protection: there's an app for that!
      Better Know Your Voting System with the Verifier!

      by HudsonValleyMark on Tue Sep 04, 2012 at 01:05:43 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I think you need to do more research (7+ / 0-)

    You're basically missing almost everything, especially about 2004 where the election was stolen in Ohio through voter suppression and paper ballot chicanery, not through "counting machine (whatever that is) sabotage."

    The basic flaw is assuming that there are "vote counting machines" (whatever those are) in a handful of battleground states. If you mean touchscreens with electronic tabulation, at least in THIS battleground state of Ohio, it's a non-factor. Most of us are on paper ballots.

    Yes, you are wrong. Voter suppression is what they are going for now. That continues to be the actual risk. Not only is OFA "aware" of this, but their program to counteract it was already being planned last year (if not earlier) and has been in effect for months.

    Election rigging is a fraught issue, one I've been involved with for a decade. One of the less helpful things is to raise an alarm about it based on incorrect information, which causes people to panic about fantasies.

    Take the "Can't(or)" out of Congress. Support E. Wayne Powell in Va-07. http://www.ewaynepowell.com/

    by anastasia p on Tue Sep 04, 2012 at 12:33:38 PM PDT

  •  What you are describing would require (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Dewstino

    an organized conspiracy between the Secretaries of State of a number of different states, all of whom aren't even Republicans, much less the sort of hardliner who might entertain being party to such a conspiracy; and a rather larger group of county election officials in those states, all of whom are not even Republicans either, much less likely conspiratorial agents. By sounding a dire warning about foul play without doing any research investigation into how that foul play might actually go down or providing any evidence that it is going to go down, you are mostly just spouting CT. Which is not only the death of reasonable discussion, but against the rules of Daily Kos; just sayin'.

    Visit Lacking All Conviction, your patch of grey on those too-sunny days.

    by eataTREE on Tue Sep 04, 2012 at 12:38:21 PM PDT

  •  The wider the margin, the harder it is... (3+ / 0-)

    ...for them to tweak the voting equipment. The reverse is also true.

    I think they will try everything -- every single thing -- at their disposal. These guys are serious.

    Ich bin ein Wisconsiner!

    by Apphouse50 on Tue Sep 04, 2012 at 12:39:00 PM PDT

  •  They will try to get the election into the (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    DickCheneyBeforeHeDicksYou

    loving 10 arms of the Supreme Court partisans.

    Romney went to France instead of serving in our military, got rich chop-shopping US businesses and eliminating US jobs, off-shored his money in the Cayman Islands, and now tells us to "Believe in America."

    by judyms9 on Tue Sep 04, 2012 at 12:57:58 PM PDT

  •  They don't have to steal. They can just take. (3+ / 0-)

    The Constitution provides that the legislature of each state decide how it will appoint its electors.  Elections aren't required.  A state legislature can by majority vote (the Constitution doesn't provide for a gubernatorial veto) simply decide, for example, to give all of that state's votes to Romney.  That's perfectly legal.

    The GOP controls the legislatures in these critical states: Florida
    Maine
    Michigan
    Minnesota
    New Hampshire
    North Carolina
    Ohio
    Pennsylvania.

    In all likelihood just giving a couple of these to Romney would swing the election.

    And there wouldn't be anything anyone could do about it.

    Scisne me e terra ea naso tollere posse?

    by penguins4peace on Tue Sep 04, 2012 at 12:59:50 PM PDT

    •  That's one theory. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Dewstino, penguins4peace

      Article 2, Section 1: Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors, equal to the whole Number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress: but no Senator or Representative, or Person holding an Office of Trust or Profit under the United States, shall be appointed an Elector.

      Right wing "legal scholars" contend that this allows a state legislature to throw out the popular vote, and in Florida, the Republican dominated legislature was called into session to do just that in the event that Gore carried the state in 2000.

      AFAIK, it is generally believed that a legislature can't change the manner of choosing electors in the middle of an election.

      A major flaw in the Constitution is that there is no Constitutional right to vote for President. A state or states might try to award its electoral votes to Romney even if Obama carried the state.
        Would the current Supreme Court uphold such a coup d'etat? It might well. And there would be no alternative short of civil war to reverse it.

      •  Thank you dallasdunlap (0+ / 0-)

        Now that's helpful to understand.

        It has been said that Obama has many options to get the electoral votes he needs to win. I can only hope that we win by a wide margin because this reads like a risk to me. A big risk, it it's at all close.

  •  *sigh* (0+ / 0-)

    "Do what you can with what you have where you are." - Teddy Roosevelt

    by Andrew C White on Tue Sep 04, 2012 at 01:01:39 PM PDT

  •  Did not want to let your diary ration go to waste? (0+ / 0-)
    Is OFA aware of this risk?
    What do you think they are? Braindead?
    What can you do? GOTV.
    Writing panicky articles does not cut it.

    He who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.

    by Sophie Amrain on Tue Sep 04, 2012 at 01:21:32 PM PDT

  •  "They" are not and have not "stolen" (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    207wickedgood

    any elections.

    In 2000 Al Gore got about a half million more popular votes then George Bush. However, he lost Florida... and the recount performed after the Supreme Court ruling verified that he lost Florida... and therefore lost in the electoral college.

    What 2000 showed was that we have a very poor electoral system. The HAVA act subsequently passed by Congress did little to fix the problems. We still have a very poor electoral system across this country fraught with areas of manipulation and confusion.

    In 2004 it was again close but John Kerry lost the election. Ohio was not stolen.

    In 2008 "we" kicked "their" asses. Period.

    In 2012 "we" are likely to do it to "them" again. Nobody is stealing nothing.

    But again, that is not to say that there aren't some very real problems. There are. But focusing on conspiracy theories about who is stealing what is misguided and takes the attention away from the very real and legitimate problems we face.

    1. As someone stated above, voter suppression laws in the guise of voter id laws are currently all the rage. This is a method used to suppress votes of the poor and minorities who predominantly vote Democratic in the guise of "reform" that combats a non-existent problem of "voter fraud."

    2. The Citizens United decision has allowed unlimited buying of elections right in front of our faces. The rich few have far more influence in our electoral system then the average US citizen. This is perhaps the biggest problem of all.

    3. HAVA did nothing to fix the problem of gerrymandering where "safe" districts are carved out for both of the two main parties and the right and ability of We the People to elect our representatives is greatly curtailed.

    4. Winner take all elections such as we have in the US generally enforce a two party system. The two party system suppresses the voices of political minorities. Even minorities with significant representation within the population. It forces those minorities into one of the two major parties where they are often controlled and drowned out. This greatly limits the depth and breadth of political conversation within this country and therefore the depth and breadth of potential solutions that get considered by the political elite.

    There are other problems but those are probably the big ones and they are done right in front of our faces not in backroom cabals or shady election machines.

    "Do what you can with what you have where you are." - Teddy Roosevelt

    by Andrew C White on Tue Sep 04, 2012 at 01:22:13 PM PDT

    •  Thank you Mr. White (0+ / 0-)

      Thank you for your comments and the rich information they contain.

      Also, thank you for providing the information in an easy understand and respectful manner.

    •  Mr. White: (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      DarkestHour

      It is not at all clear that Bush won Florida: http://www.factcheck.org/...

      And, even if he actually did get the plurality of votes cast, there is still the "felon list" that disenfranchised thousands of minority voters, plus tactics like allowing Republican operatives "correct" absentee ballots, or conducting DUI roadblocks on routes to polling places in minority precincts.

      •  I agree with factcheck (0+ / 0-)

        but at the same time stand by the statement that Bush won Florida... with this additional qualification... by the standards of the American electoral system.

        The "tactics" you list are minor ones in the long list of things our piss-poor electoral system allows for.

        There are plenty of examples of "election fraud"... that which is carried out by people in power to game the system.

        Frankly, there always will be. That isn't the problem.

        The problem is a piss-poor electoral system that leaves itself open to such gaming... both perfectly legal and possibly illegal.

        It's the laws that define our electoral system that need focusing on and fixing.

        "Do what you can with what you have where you are." - Teddy Roosevelt

        by Andrew C White on Tue Sep 04, 2012 at 02:07:51 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  The Democrats have to get out ahead of the (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Dewstino, DarkestHour

    MOT (margin of theft) (I didn't coin this phrase) -- the Repugs are letting all of these crazy things go on and they are not worried.They have a plan and I think it is vote flipping. They could not do it in 2008 because it is not possible to do if the candidate is very far ahead. We have to get very far ahead to prevent this.

    The Dems have historically not taken this risk very seriously. When Conyers was screaming about it in 2004 re: Ohio, the Dems did not fight back because they didn't want to seem like sore losers. They have to give that up and investigate anything that even seems mildly criminal -- before and after the election. They did not investigate clear irregularities in Wisconsin in the Scott Walker recall so maybe they won't do it.
    To overlook this risk will sink the Democrats, IMHO.

    "Southern nights have you ever felt a southern night?" Allen Toussaint ~~Remember the Gulf of Mexico~~

    by rubyr on Tue Sep 04, 2012 at 01:32:46 PM PDT

    •  Exactly (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      rubyr

      It seems like a risk that would be high on everyone's radar, but I don't get a sense that it is.

      I would really love to find some credible information that indicates that this is not a risk and if it is, that it's being managed.

      There are literally billions if not trillions of dollars at stake in this election. People who don't think "they" are not moving heaven and earth to get that treasure, is not paying enough attention.

      •  sort of a false dichotomy (0+ / 0-)

        When you frame the issue as "How They Are Going To Steal The Election," that isn't a risk that is 'high on my radar.' Moreover, I reject the premise that "[i]n 2004 they stole the election via some vote counting machine sabotage."

        There are lots of problems with the machines, some of which are being managed better than others, many of which are being managed better in some places than in others. I take those risks seriously.

        I rather like the way that eataTREE put it above, although I will depersonalize it:

        ...sounding a dire warning about foul play without doing any research investigation into how that foul play might actually go down or providing any evidence that it is going to go down [is] mostly just spouting CT.
        I don't necessarily agree that a bunch of secretaries of state would have to conspire, but I do agree that it isn't obvious how to subvert the results in lots of places at once.

        Right now, the number one "tipping point" state (according to Nate Silver) is Ohio. Everyone in Ohio votes either on paper ballots, or on voting machines that produce voter-verifiable paper records -- so an important first step is for voters using those machines actually to verify those records. The next step is to secure the paper ballots and records, and subsequently to audit them rigorously enough to provide strong evidence that the apparent winner really won. Ohio has a halfway decent audit directive in place, although if the election is really close, it would be inadequate.

        The number two tipping point state is Virginia. That is unfortunate, because many voters in Virginia use DREs with no voter-verifiable paper record. That isn't to say that someone could easily steal votes across the state by flipping a switch, but there is legitimate concern about the security and reliability of the equipment.

        Election protection: there's an app for that!
        Better Know Your Voting System with the Verifier!

        by HudsonValleyMark on Tue Sep 04, 2012 at 02:13:15 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Take people who behave like this: (0+ / 0-)

          http://www.dailykos.com/...

          and add it to some theft of votes and there you have it...a
          stolen election.

          "Southern nights have you ever felt a southern night?" Allen Toussaint ~~Remember the Gulf of Mexico~~

          by rubyr on Tue Sep 04, 2012 at 03:24:59 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  "and add it to some theft of votes" (0+ / 0-)

            Sounds sort of like: if you had ham, you could have ham and eggs, if you had ham.

            It really doesn't matter much, at this moment, whether or not Husted establishes early voting hours for those last three days. If the current ruling remains in effect, eventually he will have to comply or risk serious sanctions. On the other hand, if the circuit court overturns the current ruling, that does not have to prevent anyone from voting. Don't mourn, organize.

            If someone steals enough votes to alter the election outcome, sure enough, that will be a stolen election. I don't think that tautology warrants your complaint about the Democrats -- and you didn't say what "clear irregularities" in Wisconsin weren't investigated. So, shrug.

            Election protection: there's an app for that!
            Better Know Your Voting System with the Verifier!

            by HudsonValleyMark on Tue Sep 04, 2012 at 03:46:51 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  Agreed. n.t. (0+ / 0-)

        "Southern nights have you ever felt a southern night?" Allen Toussaint ~~Remember the Gulf of Mexico~~

        by rubyr on Tue Sep 04, 2012 at 03:18:08 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  *** (0+ / 0-)

    I'm concerned about this also.

    The Ghost of Tom Joad http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jVZHCUbS4U

    by Illinois IRV on Tue Sep 04, 2012 at 05:08:54 PM PDT

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