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I don't expect this diary will get a lot of attention, what with the awesome DNC convention going on, but I have some news from north of the border to convey.

Today a general election was held in the province of Quebec, and the Parti Quebecois has defeated the Liberal Party. Pauline Marois will be the first woman premier of Quebec, quite an accomplishment given that women in Quebec were denied the right to vote provincially until 1940.

More apres le croissant.

The latest is that the PQ has won the largest number of seats, but not enough to form a majority government. This is actually quite a good result for the corruption-ridden Liberals, who have been in power the past 9 years; the PQ was widely expected to form a small majority, in which case they could have pushed their agenda (including a referendum on sovereignty) without any wheeling and dealing with opposition parties. Now they will have to deal, and a sovereignty referendum is probably off the table for the time being.

I'm pleased with this result. The PQ is a solid social-democratic party, and the Liberals are... just awful, with ties to the Mafia and several investigations into corruption going on. As to sovereignty, I have always believed that any province in Canada should have the right to determine its own future.

In any case, there will be interesting times ahead in our second-largest province, and we can celebrate a woman winning an impressive victory.

Originally posted to Wreck Smurfy on Tue Sep 04, 2012 at 07:11 PM PDT.

Also republished by Canadian Kossacks.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Tip Jar (116+ / 0-)

    -8.38, -7.74 My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. - Jack Layton

    by Wreck Smurfy on Tue Sep 04, 2012 at 07:11:50 PM PDT

  •  Yay! (8+ / 3-)

    Go, Quebecois!

    Beat the shit outta the English-speakers.  Wish we had more francophones here in the U.S. -- our politics would likely be better for the 99 percent and worse for the Romneys and Ryans who can afford to pay their fair share of taxes but offshore their income so they don't have to.

    IOW, the scoundrels who should be drummed out of this country.

    Let 'em go live in Siberia..

    To make the argument that the media has a left- or right-wing, or a liberal or a conservative bias, is like asking if the problem with Al-Qaeda is do they use too much oil in their hummus. Al Franken

    by Youffraita on Tue Sep 04, 2012 at 07:21:38 PM PDT

  •  Thanks for this bit of news. (6+ / 0-)

    The DNC is sort of dominating right now (for obvious reasons) but the rest of the world goes on.

    Your 1940 stat is chilling. Whoa.

  •  I got to vote in the infamous (13+ / 0-)

    "argent et la vote ethnique" referendum, way back in the day when I was a student at McGill, living in a strong PQ district (for Montreal) - Papineau. The margin was about 85 votes for staying in Canada, and from my memory, that district played a significant factor in a very close vote - probably the closest I've come to an actually meaningful vote.

    From what I've been reading, I agree that the Quebec liberals needed a serious shakeup, and while still I don't agree with the seperatist movement, I believe that the PQ has the potential to rule responsibly, and hope they will.

    Thanks for the diary!

    •  Well, in fact it was as he said. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      erratic, Shane Hensinger

      The federalists broke spending limits (l'argent), and did mobilize the non-Francophone vote thereby (la vote ethnique). Parizeau was only speaking the truth, as it turned out. I said so on CBC Radio that night.

      -8.38, -7.74 My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. - Jack Layton

      by Wreck Smurfy on Tue Sep 04, 2012 at 07:55:54 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Interesting. (3+ / 0-)

        I was a young college kid at the time, and my main news sources were anglo - the Montreal Gazette, and the Globe and Mail. I didn't hear much about the spending limits violations, and interpreted Parizeau's line as basically xenophobic, from the perspective of a culturally diverse Montreal, with the money reference being a slur on Montreal's monied anglos.

        I'm sure that the perspective from outside Montreal was quite different...

        •  The spending limit law-breaking (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          erratic, Simplify

          came out later, but is well documented. The Feds cheated to win. At the time, Parizeau's remarks were widely interpreted as an attack on Jewish Montrealers, which makes the main stream media all the more heinous in my view, because they were trying to paint him as an anti-semite, while he was only trying to point out that the federalists had cheated, which later proved to be true.

          -8.38, -7.74 My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. - Jack Layton

          by Wreck Smurfy on Tue Sep 04, 2012 at 08:33:23 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  And just a followup (0+ / 0-)

      this was a very informative discussion. Naturally the attack/shooting was very unfortunate. I'm disappointed that the PQ ran on such a problematic platform, choosing coercive tactics to impose francophone culture on those who do may wish it. I feel this is neither a constructive nor an appropriate approach.

      From the comments here, it seems that many were celebrating a superficial narrative of a triumph of Franco Quebecois culture over a restrictive and coercive Canadian gouvernement. I feel that this perspective is due to a lack of awareness of the cultural, historical, and economic forces in play. Wikipedia provides a decent overview: http://en.wikipedia.org/...

  •  "determine their own future" (9+ / 0-)

    What does that mean, exactly, in a world where we all need to quickly figure out how to have a future together if we're to avoid, really, there being no future for anyone.

    (And this is coming from someone believes that the nicest city on the planet is a tie between Vancouver, and Quebec City.)

    There can be no protection locally if we're content to ignore the fact that there are no controls globally.

    by oldpotsmuggler on Tue Sep 04, 2012 at 07:32:42 PM PDT

    •  the plutocracy is global; resistance is local (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      wu ming, Wreck Smurfy, native

      It lives anywhere, buys and sells everywhere, and has the same plan for all of us: extract maximum profit, then pull the plug.  Strategic disengagement can be a powerful tool for making it harder for the plutocracy and their minions to control and exploit you from afar: be it from Ottawa or DC, London or New York, etc.  Just like medieval society turned inward away from the failing Empire, the bandit-infested wilderness, and the lawless rural nobility, carving out little pockets of shelter and autonomy, tailored to local needs and means, may be the way to go.

      Add Quebec's deep French roots versus Canada's general Anglo-American atmosphere (especially under Harper and especially after the very public failures of conservatism), and you only have more reason for Quebec to want to assert itself politically.

      To those who say the New Deal didn't work: WWII was also government spending

      by Visceral on Tue Sep 04, 2012 at 09:19:33 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  That just sounds like a defensive measure. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        native, oldpotsmuggler

        Why can't resistance be global?  Can't we conceive of a "globalization" that works for everyone rather than just a few?

        The '60s were simply an attempt to get the 21st Century started early....Well, what are we waiting for? There's no deadline on a dream!

        by Panurge on Tue Sep 04, 2012 at 10:28:57 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  scale = ruling class (0+ / 0-)

          I'm not at all convinced that scale in and of itself isn't the root of the problem, of all of our problems.

          Defensive measures have their place.  Besides, it's pretty meaningless to protest the plutocracy when you're still terminally dependent on it: when you go to work for rich people every day, buy from them, vote for a government that works for them, etc.  Build alternatives that cut the plutocrats right out of your life and your community.  We have little or no control over what the rich and powerful do, but we can control what we do; I'd like to see us play to our strengths rather than challenge theirs.  But then I'm the passive-aggressive type.

          To those who say the New Deal didn't work: WWII was also government spending

          by Visceral on Tue Sep 04, 2012 at 10:42:49 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  French Quebecers had no other option. (0+ / 0-)

          They had to be defensive. Before the sixties they were being swallowed up by English Canada. In Montreal, in the bad old days, you couldn't get a decent-paying job unless you spoke English. French was strictly a second-class language, often a lower-class language, while arrogant Anglophones ruled the roost.

          Rene Levesque and the Parti Quebecois put an end to all that, but it took some pretty extreme actions to do it. Tons of Anglo money poured out of Montreal and re-located to Toronto.

          "Here's another nice mess you've gotten me into." - Oliver Hardy

          by native on Wed Sep 05, 2012 at 10:20:17 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Yes, and thankfully things have moved beyond (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            native

            that, at least to some extent.

            There can be no protection locally if we're content to ignore the fact that there are no controls globally.

            by oldpotsmuggler on Wed Sep 05, 2012 at 12:39:15 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  They have indeed, and that's a very good thing. (0+ / 0-)

              But the roots of the Parti Quebecois are radical. Fighting-in-the-streets radical. People sometimes don't realize just how hard they had to fight, in order to achieve what they have achieved.

              Even now they tend to be paranoid and defensive, but there is some justification for it. Chavez in Venezuela is paranoid and defensive too, but not in my opinion unreasonably so.

              "Here's another nice mess you've gotten me into." - Oliver Hardy

              by native on Wed Sep 05, 2012 at 01:51:43 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I followed the news during the entire Trudeau (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                native

                administration, so, again, yeah.

                There can be no protection locally if we're content to ignore the fact that there are no controls globally.

                by oldpotsmuggler on Wed Sep 05, 2012 at 02:25:34 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I'm glad you agree. I came to Montreal in '68 (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  erratic

                  as a draft-dodger, so Trudeau is something of a hero for me. Very few leaders of that quality anymore. I almost immediately fell under the sway of les separatistes, who in those days were much like OWS people, except they all spoke French.

                  I fit right in, even though I didn't speak a word of the language. I could understand their cause, and agreed with it. We all understood that the war in Vietnam was a steaming pile of bullshit.

                  OK so things have changed - but there are still a lot of very good people involved in the Parti Quebecois. There are now xenophobes as well, but I think it remains a strong, viable and essentially progressive movement.

                  "Here's another nice mess you've gotten me into." - Oliver Hardy

                  by native on Wed Sep 05, 2012 at 03:05:20 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

      •  "Tear it all down to build it all back up again " (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        erratic

        is an undertaking, the scale of which I think that you don't fully comprehend.

        There can be no protection locally if we're content to ignore the fact that there are no controls globally.

        by oldpotsmuggler on Wed Sep 05, 2012 at 12:38:04 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Holy cow. I'm on the Wreck list again. (8+ / 0-)

    Thanks all. I really didn't think this would get many eyes given the convention, but I guess I was wrong.

    -8.38, -7.74 My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. - Jack Layton

    by Wreck Smurfy on Tue Sep 04, 2012 at 07:41:45 PM PDT

  •  Think the Western and Eastern parts of Canada... (5+ / 0-)

    .....will stay together if Quebec leaves?

    What about Ontario?

    Just curious.

    Repubs started up the car, hit the throttle and sent it over the cliff, and now they're complaining that the black guy hasn't fixed it fast enough.

    by Bush Bites on Tue Sep 04, 2012 at 07:42:08 PM PDT

    •  I still don't see a viable path (10+ / 0-)

      to seperation. Cultural pride plays the strongest factor in the Quebec seperatist movement, but the practicality of creating a viable and stable economy independent of Canada would be extremely challenging.

      •  It would be more independent of Canada (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        kyril, native

           but would end up more tied in to the U.S. sphere.

            I am a Canadophile from the States. I think the Quebecois are better off in the Canadian system.

             But what the hell do I know? I live, vote and am a citizen of the California Republic (look at the state flag) so I am U.S. American. I'll admit there were times during the Bush years that I thought about separation from the U.S. since CA would be a major country on our own...

        Diehard Swingnut, disgruntled Democrat, age 54, new CA-30

        by Zack from the SFV on Tue Sep 04, 2012 at 09:49:49 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I continue to believe (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Simplify, Zack from the SFV, native

      that the Atlantic provinces would make a good go of it on our own. I'm mostly OK within Canada, but I'm not a convinced federalist. I look to the model of Iceland.

      -8.38, -7.74 My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. - Jack Layton

      by Wreck Smurfy on Tue Sep 04, 2012 at 08:00:15 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Harper has been a complete dick to Quebec. (10+ / 0-)

      I sometimes suspect that he would like to be the President of Greater Oilberta rather than dealing with all those pesky people who disagree with him.

      "They smash your face in, and say you were always ugly." (Solzhenitsyn)

      by sagesource on Tue Sep 04, 2012 at 08:02:18 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Vancouver - Seattle - Portland (8+ / 0-)

      The PNW is a natural unit, IMO: three big metros close together and far from anyone else in spirit as well as in fact.  A bastion of educated and cosmopolitan liberalism with a strong "creative class" economy would do very well for itself.

      To those who say the New Deal didn't work: WWII was also government spending

      by Visceral on Tue Sep 04, 2012 at 09:28:42 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  California? (4+ / 0-)

        I note you stopped short of California. It isn't Pacific NW, but still—from the border with Mexico to the border with Alaska, that would be quite the country.

        Or go whole hog: include Alaska, too.

        •  Maybe Northern California (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          True North, Wreck Smurfy, kyril

          Ecotopia was based on Northern California, Oregon and WA seceding - there are separatist movements in all three states.

          "The two pioneering forces of modern sensibility are Jewish moral seriousness and homosexual aestheticism and irony." Susan Sontag

          by Shane Hensinger on Tue Sep 04, 2012 at 10:10:04 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  too big and too diverse (0+ / 0-)

          I would be wary of including that much hinterland in a country with such a compact core.  It's pretty far between Portland and the Bay Area, and north of Vancouver is a whole lot of nothing until you get up to red state Alaska.  Besides, you don't want the "California syndrome" of a determined conservative minority elected by rural voters paralyzing a weak center-left majority.  There's no point in separating if you just re-create the same left-right and urban-rural divides in the new country.

          For that reason and others, taking California as a whole is just asking for trouble, even as its own country.  The big cities and the urbanized southern coast, the agricultural Central Valley, and the practically empty east are three very different worlds.  Greater LA and the Bay Area are really the only solidly blue areas; maybe a thin strip along the northern coast and a little east into Wine Country, but there's still a real divide between big-city liberals and rural Democrats.  SoCal is pretty red outside of CA-50 and a Latino-heavy strip along the border

          To those who say the New Deal didn't work: WWII was also government spending

          by Visceral on Tue Sep 04, 2012 at 10:20:55 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Let the eastern border run through the Cascades, (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Visceral, Shane Hensinger

            the southern border just south of the SF metro area, and the northern border at the north end of Vancouver Island.

            We could go a little more inland to pick up some farmland, but I wouldn't go all the way to the Idaho/Alberta borders...that's asking for trouble.

            "Let’s just move on, treat everybody with firmness, fairness, dignity, compassion and respect. Let’s be Marines." - Sgt. Maj Michael Barrett on DADT repeal

            by kyril on Wed Sep 05, 2012 at 01:45:19 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  Yes, that would be Cascadia (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Wreck Smurfy

        Although with sea levels rising we might all head inland. Though not as far as Alberta, please.

        ❧To thine ownself be true

        by Agathena on Tue Sep 04, 2012 at 10:06:19 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  West Coast is pretty steep (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Wreck Smurfy, kyril

          The low-lying big cities will be underwater, but the land rises a lot faster than it does back east.

          The problem is that what the rest of the country associates with Northern California and the PNW doesn't extend very far inland: not politically, not economically, not ecologically.  The Cascades is the divider in WA and OR - the Puget Sound area and to a lesser extent the Willamette Valley - and in CA it hugs the coast even more tightly.

          To those who say the New Deal didn't work: WWII was also government spending

          by Visceral on Tue Sep 04, 2012 at 10:29:45 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Not such a natural unit. (0+ / 0-)

        Show me the health care, the political culture, the absence of Fox News, the laws against hate-speech, etc, south of White Rock.

        Geography is not everything.

        The PNW is influenced by the rest of the US, as BC is by Canada.

    •  BC will create Cascadia with Washington State (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Wreck Smurfy, kyril

      why not? we have more in common with them than the rest of Canada. Same time zone, same weather, similar terrain, sharing the Columbia River...

      ❧To thine ownself be true

      by Agathena on Tue Sep 04, 2012 at 10:04:07 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I grew up in the San Juan Islands, sandwiched btwn (0+ / 0-)

        BC and WA, so that always seemed like a reasonable idea.  Extending the new unit all the way down to NoCal, not so much.  As has been well explained upthread...

        Actually I got only BC television growing up, so I was very tuned in to the early days of the Parti Quebecois and the first Referenda.  It doesn't seem like the basic terms of that debate have changed in the 40 years since...

    •  Not at issue. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      native

      There have been many referenda, none of them successful. It's sort of a ritual.

      Sometimes Alberta makes noises and nobody cares.

      Forty years ago the premiers of the Maritimes (the provinces to the east of Quebec) confronted the issue, but that was a lifetime ago when Quebec separation was a real possibility. It no longer is.

      Ontario IS Canada, and while Toronto is not loved in the rest of the country -- think about how NYC would poll in Mississippi -- nobody hates it enough to leave. Not even Quebec.

  •  As long as the PQ doesn't try for a secession (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    erratic, renbear, pademocrat, kyril

    vote.

    The Muslim said "I wished I had met Christ before I met the Christians" - Rev. Marvin Winins

    by captainlaser on Tue Sep 04, 2012 at 07:43:34 PM PDT

  •  There's a Canadian Mafia? Weird. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Bush Bites, erratic, Wreck Smurfy

    Patriot: the person who can holler the loudest without knowing what he is hollering about. Mark Twain

    by Deathtongue on Tue Sep 04, 2012 at 07:43:53 PM PDT

    •  Eh. (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      erratic, Deathtongue, Wreck Smurfy, kyril

      There's a Russian mafia, why not a Canadian one....

      Repubs started up the car, hit the throttle and sent it over the cliff, and now they're complaining that the black guy hasn't fixed it fast enough.

      by Bush Bites on Tue Sep 04, 2012 at 07:45:36 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I actually the experience (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Deathtongue, Wreck Smurfy, Simplify, kyril

      of a biker gang blow up a bar across the street, when i lived in Montreal. The Rock Machine was fighting incursions by a chapter of the Hells Angels. On a larger scale, political corruption has unfortunately played a strong factor in Quebec politics historically.

      •  Just looked this up in wikipedia (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Wreck Smurfy, kyril

        it was pretty brutal: http://en.wikipedia.org/...

        The war began as the Hells Angels in Quebec began to make a push to establish a monopoly on street-level drug sales in the province. A number of drug dealers and crime families resisted and established groups such as the "Alliance to fight the Angels". Eventually, a number of dealers formed the Rock Machine.
        The war resulted in the bombings of many establishments and murders on both sides. It has claimed more than 150 lives,[1] including some innocent bystanders such as Daniel Desrochers, an 11-year-old boy who was fatally injured by shrapnel as he was playing near a jeep that was blown up.[2]
        The war eventually ended with mass killings by the Hells Angels,[3] plus public outcry over the deaths of innocent bystanders[4] resulted in police pressure including the incarceration of over 100 bikers.[5]
        •  Brutal by design (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Wreck Smurfy, kyril, erratic, native

          Maurice (Mom) Boucher and Paul (Sasquatch) Porter were the best of Hells Angels friends. They concocted a rife where loyalty could be tested and competitors could be drawn-out. Porter played the role of General Lee and his standing drew many from within the club and, more importantly, from all competitors to the HA in Monteal, thus forming the Rock Machine.
          The "war" played itself out and the competitors suffered much more than the HA (which was the plan). Boucher would eventually be convicted for a rediculous act of hubris (ordering the murder of prison guards) while Porter eventually brings just under 200 of his (Rock Machine) members back into the HA fold.
          Suspicion that Porter turned informant is ripe following his recent arrest and the subsequent take-down of an HA house and network in Ottawa.

          If I wanted an uninformed opinion, I'd ask Sarah Palin.

          by Visionseeker on Tue Sep 04, 2012 at 10:02:45 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Oh, hell, yes. (4+ / 0-)

      The Mafia is an international corporation. Just like any other international corporation.

      -8.38, -7.74 My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. - Jack Layton

      by Wreck Smurfy on Tue Sep 04, 2012 at 08:02:13 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yes, ties between the US and Canadian mobs (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        kyril, erratic, native

        go back at least as far as prohibition when the two were involved in the liquor smuggling business with speedboats on Lakes Erie and Ontario.

        I have also recently read about a good deal of cross-border smuggling of drugs across the Quebec and Maine borders.  In that article, a very elderly Maine woman was interviewed and said that smuggling of anything and everything had been going on there for 100 years with the complicity of most of the residents.

        •  Lots of that still going on. (0+ / 0-)

          Montreal construction industry is heavily infiltrated by the Mafia. They get lots of the big government contracts, including highway construction.

          "Here's another nice mess you've gotten me into." - Oliver Hardy

          by native on Wed Sep 05, 2012 at 10:46:29 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  So can I still get La Fin du Monde? (5+ / 0-)

    That's pretty much all I know about Quebec, that and Colorado stole their hockey team. That was bullshit, but hey... Winnipeg got the Jets back. So keep the faith I guess.

    You can do whatever you want to us, but we're not going to sit here and listen to you badmouth the United States of America.

    by Eric Stratton on Tue Sep 04, 2012 at 07:50:20 PM PDT

  •  it seems to be a constant throughout human affairs (4+ / 0-)

    parties in power become corrupt.

    big badda boom : GRB 080913

    by squarewheel on Tue Sep 04, 2012 at 07:50:26 PM PDT

  •  Secession is a non-starter (19+ / 0-)

    No matter how much the PQ talk.

    The First Nations of northern Quebec have already made it clear that if Quebec leaves Canada, they leave Quebec. Their treaties are with the Crown, not with Quebec City. And if they do leave, they will take more than half of the province with them, including most of its natural resources.

    "They smash your face in, and say you were always ugly." (Solzhenitsyn)

    by sagesource on Tue Sep 04, 2012 at 08:00:25 PM PDT

  •  Bonnes nouvelles! C'est une bonne chose. :-) (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    erratic, Wreck Smurfy, kyril

    "In other words, if we bust our butts, there's an even chance things will get better; and if we sit on our butts, there's a major chance things will go completely to hell". --- G2geek

    by Lorinda Pike on Tue Sep 04, 2012 at 08:08:12 PM PDT

    •  Absolutement, c'est une bonne chose. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      MoDem, Lorinda Pike, kyril

      And I only wish this site would allow us to insert the correct accent marks. Maudit anglais. ;-)

      -8.38, -7.74 My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. - Jack Layton

      by Wreck Smurfy on Tue Sep 04, 2012 at 08:39:18 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Thanks for the news (3+ / 0-)

    Now, how about saving the hockey season!

    Seriously, it's always good to see a movement towards progressive values and away from corruption.

    "Political ends as sad remains will die." - YES 'And You and I' ; -8.88, -9.54

    by US Blues on Tue Sep 04, 2012 at 08:16:15 PM PDT

  •  I hope your election predictions (4+ / 0-)

    are better than this:

    I don't expect this diary will get a lot of attention
    Tipped and Recc'd.

    I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
    but I fear we will remain Democrats.

    by twigg on Tue Sep 04, 2012 at 08:18:18 PM PDT

  •  Vive Quebec! Vive la belle province! n/t (5+ / 0-)
    •  D'accord, mon frere! (2+ / 0-)

      -8.38, -7.74 My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. - Jack Layton

      by Wreck Smurfy on Tue Sep 04, 2012 at 08:44:14 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  "Vive la Quebec Libre!" (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Wreck Smurfy, kyril, native

        I remember the words so well, spoken by DeGalle on his visit to Montreal.

        The PQ enacted an advanced social program including free post-secondary education and the government provided free French language instruction for newcomers and residents. That was fair. The problem was the jobs weren't there for les anglais, especially retail jobs and the small minimum wage jobs for kids. Employers insisted on "perfectment bilingue." Sometimes even if one was bilingual, their English name was held against them in the job market. This created a huge exodus of people who were not perfectly bilingual.

        There was a lot of pettiness coming from the "Language Police" a bureaucracy created for the protection of the French language. Eaton's had to change its name to Eaton. The most petty example was when the huge exhibition of Leonardo da Vinci came to town, the signs spelled his name "Leonard de Vinci."

        Let's hope the prejudice and meanness isn't repeated.

        ❧To thine ownself be true

        by Agathena on Tue Sep 04, 2012 at 10:26:09 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Good Liberals Should Not Support the PQ (16+ / 0-)

    Cultural nationalism/chauvinism has no place in liberalism even if its paired with left-wing economic policies. Mussolini started out with those as well. The PQ supports:

    Requiring Immigrants to pass a literacy test in French to vote: This was wrong in Alabama in 1965 and its wrong today

    Banning Children from going to English schools if one of their grandparents once spoke French, even if they don't speak a word and neither do their parents

    Extending said bans to private schools with massive taxes and quotas

    Extending said restrictions to Universities

    Requiring all government services by the Federal Canadian government to be in French, including services to First Nation Tribes and Immigrants.

    Restricting access to television and media lout of fear it will "pollute" the culture by teaching children English

    The PQ is an illiberal party that rather than promoting French or making it attractive, authoritarian and oppresses minorities.

    If they supported Neo-Liberal Economic Policies everyone on this board would be calling them Fascists. Instead because they hate businesses, not because of left-wing beliefs(god knows Bouchard was not particularly leftist) but because the private sector opposes separatism and supports the use of English, this nonsense enemy of my enemy argument has turned them into the toast of Daily Kos.

    •  Good points (13+ / 0-)

      The PQ is the most anti immigrant, non progressive party of all of them including the federal Conservatives.  It's strange to see all these "progressives" cheering this victory of a party that wants to break up Canada, restrict individual freedoms, promote ethnic tribalism and persecute minorities and immigrants.

      •  I understand the feelings about Charest (5+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        erratic, mll, renbear, Zack from the SFV, kyril

        And I think almost everyone, including the voters of Sherbrooke shares them. I also sympathize with people who dislike the current government. It is corrupt.

        But cheering on the PQ. Its not slander. They actually do want to disenfranchise immigrants. If Republicans proposed English literacy tests for voting people would be out in the streets.

    •  Well thanks for adding some relevant facts (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      BC Progressive, kyril

      Is this really the current PQ platform? That would be highly offensive.

    •  Exactly! (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Olympia, Pierretrudeau, kyril

      They are anti-immigrant, anti-equal rights, and anti-open education.

      I'm ashamed to see this diary here like this.

      •  It is not as simple as that. (0+ / 0-)

        These points made against the PQ are entirely valid, but made out of context. The PQ has instituted many valuable and necessary reforms. Quebec politics are complex, and not often reducible to the simplicity of right and wrong.  You can disagree with the diary without being "ashamed" to see it here.

        "Here's another nice mess you've gotten me into." - Oliver Hardy

        by native on Wed Sep 05, 2012 at 11:06:00 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  That may be (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Wreck Smurfy, BrooklynJohnny

      but they didn't get majority.

      They did oust the Liberals, which despite their name are a crappy, pretty slimey centrist or establishmentarian party whose historical purpose in Canada was to prevent Quebec's secession in a peaceful way.

      Now it's time for the Liberals to die off, like Southern Democrats in the U.S. are doing (whose historical purpose was to prevent outbreaks of racial violence).

      •  The Liberals... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        kyril, phenry
        which despite their name are a crappy, pretty slimey centrist or establishmentarian party
        ...are to the left of the Democrats on the ideological spectrum. They're centrist (even centre-right) by Quebec standards, not by US standards.
    •  Bull. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      native

      I believe in the sovereignty of all peoples. That is a fundamental of democracy.

      The sovereignty of the people of Quebec is so far from Italian fascism as to be a joke. How about the part where the Italian fascists formed an alliance with the Catholic Church, one of the greatest suppressors of human rights in history, while the PQ is turning away from the RC Church to the point where Christ on the cross will be banned in public spaces?

      Every person who emigrates to Quebec knows that they are emigrating to a province where French is the official language. Given that they know this, they would not emigrate there unless they accept it.

      You seem to have a problem with language policy, sir. May I remind you that the Netherlands, one of the most liberal and democratic states on Earth, require all emigrants to be competent in the Dutch tongue before being accepted for citizenship?

      Your post is full of fail.

      -8.38, -7.74 My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. - Jack Layton

      by Wreck Smurfy on Tue Sep 04, 2012 at 09:01:35 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  asdf (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Zack from the SFV, kyril, erratic

        I assume you don't live in Quebec. Easy to be in favor of Quebec separation if you won't have to live with the consequences.

        As for "every person" who emigrates to Quebec accepting the language laws, that's rank nonsense. I am proof to the contrary, since I emigrated here and do not accept it. It's like saying anyone who moves to the US before Obamacare accepts that there is no right to health care. I moved to Quebec despite my rejection of the denial of language rights in this province.

        And as for the Netherlands analogy, is there a sizable linguistic minority there that has lived as a community in their own language since the country was founded? If that were so, and if the Dutch are denying such a community its right to maintain their culture and identity in their own language, then your characterization of them as "one of the most liberal and democratic states on Earth" would be indefensible.

        •  Recent Dutch Immigration laws (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          mll, kyril

          Also happen to be aimed at a specific group of immigrants, whose religion tends to offend certain groups of voters.

          •  Dutch have reevaluated some of their tolerance (0+ / 0-)

            The assassinations of Pim Fortuyn and Theo van Gogh shocked a lot of people over there and many have never really gotten over them.  Decade(s) ago maybe, but it got people thinking that maybe tolerance was not an absolute good.  The fact that both assassins were Muslim fundamentalists did no favors to either the Muslim community - especially not after 9/11 and the radicalization of susceptible Muslims worldwide in consequence of American wars - or to the Dutch center-left that had long argued in favor of unrestricted immigration and multiculturalism.  True to winger form perhaps, the Dutch right presents themselves as the protectors of the Dutch consensus of liberalism, secularism, and democracy - claiming that the left is going to make a martyr of the Netherlands: led by the nose by their own blind abstractions to empower persons and an ideology who hold Dutch society in absolute contempt.

            To those who say the New Deal didn't work: WWII was also government spending

            by Visceral on Tue Sep 04, 2012 at 09:57:45 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  I don't defend the Netherlands (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        mll, Zack from the SFV, kyril

        How would you feel if Jan Brewer pushed through a law requiring voters to pass an English language test to be able to vote or run for office in Arizona. After all, people know that that "English" is the "sole official language" of Arizona according to the state constitution.

        How would you feel if Jan Brewer banned Spanish language instruction or classes?

      •  Ah yes (8+ / 0-)
        while the PQ is turning away from the RC Church to the point where Christ on the cross will be banned in public spaces?
        Not to mention religious displays by anyone working in goverment: Muslim women, orthodox Jews, Sikhs...pretty much anyone who has some form of distinctive clothing that's religiously significant and recognizable.

        I'm an atheist. I find that fucking appalling.

        May I remind you that the Netherlands, one of the most liberal and democratic states on Earth, require all emigrants to be competent in the Dutch tongue before being accepted for citizenship?
        May I remind you that Inuit and other First Nations were living in Quebec first and PQ policies regarding language would require the sacrifice of their native tongues (or English, if they so chose) if they wanted to represent their people, as per the glorious leader of the PQ, who realized she'd stepped into it after announcing that and had to scramble backwards in panic that her bigotry coming out?
      •  Missed this the first time (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        BenjaminDisraeli, kyril
        while the PQ is turning away from the RC Church to the point where Christ on the cross will be banned in public spaces?
        Nonsense. The PQ proposed restricting the wearing of non-Christian religious symbols by government employees -- but specifically exempted crucifixes.
  •  "Every province in Canada should be able to (7+ / 0-)

    determine its own future"  Not really because that decision affects the rest of Canada in a multitude of ways.  For that reason, the Supreme Court of Canada decided that separation could only be done by consent of the majority of the provinces.  
    Aside from issues of national debt, territory, right of passage, the seaway etc. etc., there's also the issue of divisibility, that is, if Quebec can separate, what about the right of the English minority and First Nations peoples who want to stay in Canada?
    Your position is a little light on facts, reasoning and legal practicality

    •  My own province, Nova Scotia (0+ / 0-)

      was forced into Confederation. We voted to get out in 1868, and were then told, "too bad, so sad", by the British Crown and the Ottawa government, entirely ignoring the wishes of the people.

      So yes, in spite of the Supreme Court, I will state that each province has the right to determine its own future, by democratic means, if only to right a wrong against the democratic wish of the people that happened so many years ago. Time does not make a wrong right.

      -8.38, -7.74 My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. - Jack Layton

      by Wreck Smurfy on Tue Sep 04, 2012 at 09:40:43 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Nova Scotia? (3+ / 0-)

        Oh, please. Anti-confederation movements also took place in New Brunswick and Newfoundland. Apparently the main difference is that we still don't whine about it.

        And as for the Maritimes going it alone? Yeah, good luck with that, as pretty much anyone with the the most basic knowledge of the economy (and reality) could tell you.

      •  I was in the maritimes and Newfoundland (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        kyril

        last spring visiting from the US.

        Just curious, what are the attitudes of the French speaking populations of New Brunswick and Nova Scotia to Quebec separatism?

        •  From New Brunswick (0+ / 0-)

          Most Acadians that I grew up with considered Séparatistes to be egotistical blowhards. They thought that the only time Québecois seemed to give a shit about any francophones outside Québec was if the local francophone community was having an issue, say not having an office of some department in an Acadian area, which was seized upon as proof that francophones were being discriminated against and therefore Québec must separate, even if it had nothing to do with language at all and had more to do with locality (ie, some primarily English areas of the province might also be bitching about not having an office of the same department there either).

          •  I met many Acadians (0+ / 0-)

            when I was in Dieppe and Cheticamp.  Though I am originally from Louisiana, though not Cajun, it was nice to see all the old "Louisiana" surnames--Theriot, Aucoin, Bourgeois, Cormier, etc.

            Crawfish and fried alligator were hard to come by though.  j/k

  •  The Quebec Liberals (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Wreck Smurfy, kyril

    aren't affiliated with the Federal party, right?

    Note to self, stop before I emulate the habits described in this diary.

    by Rustbelt Dem on Tue Sep 04, 2012 at 08:37:01 PM PDT

  •  "Corruption-ridden Liberals"? Really? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Olympia, mll

    You make them sound like Bush Co... sheesh. We are talking about a half-dozen people.

  •  pot meet kettle (13+ / 0-)
    The PQ is a solid social-democratic party, and the Liberals are... just awful, with ties to the Mafia and several investigations into corruption going on.
    With all due respect, that's a lot of hooey. Corruption in Quebec crosses party lines. The PQ is every bit as corrupt as the Liberals and the investigations are not limited to the Liberals. The main focus of these investigations is the construction industry, which is largely controlled by the mafia (basically, mafia controlled construction firms fraudulently overbill for infrastructure projects, and then kick back part of the profits to fund political parties, Liberal and PQ. A lot of this is also at the municipal level, where there are different parties.). The construction unions are part and parcel of the corrupt system, and support the PQ.

    And the PQ is not a "solid social democratic party." It's a sovereigntist party that blurs left-right lines, and which ran this time on a nationalist anti-immigrant agenda. Nor are the Liberals "just awful," from a social democratic perspective. For one thing, they've reduced poverty and preserved various social programs over the last nine years.

    And, as for sovereignty, the people of Quebec has "decided its future" in that respect. We've rejected separation twice in referenda, support for sovereignty has been well short of a majority for over a decade, and a clear majority of the voters today supported either a federalist party (the Liberals), or a party that promised not to promote sovereignty for at least a decade (CAQ).

    Finally, it's worth noting that the difference in vote percentages between the Liberals and the PQ as the returns come in has been holding steady at just barely over 1% for the past few hours. The PQ won with 32% of the vote to the Liberals' 31%.  

    I am, however, pissed off at Liberal Leader Charest for scheduling a Quebec election on the first night of the  Democratic Convention! As a dual citizen and political junkie, I've had a crazy night...

    •  As an English speaking person who lived 20 years.. (4+ / 0-)

      in Quebec...this diary is utter bullshit.  

      The PQ is an ethnocentric fascist party that won't be happy until every single non-francophone is run out of the place on a rail.

      Jean Charest was a corrupt asshole, but Pauline Marouis is a neo-Nazi.

      •  That's a bit much (0+ / 0-)

        I'm not going to HR because it's (sadly) too close to the truth for that, but I will repeat the request I've seen coming from a number of Jewish site members not to call people Nazis unless they're either actually wearing swastikas or rounding people up and mass-murdering them.

        I won't pretend that I don't think the PQ is capable of the latter if it gets its sovereignty wish, but so far they've mostly been oppressing people nonviolently.

        "Let’s just move on, treat everybody with firmness, fairness, dignity, compassion and respect. Let’s be Marines." - Sgt. Maj Michael Barrett on DADT repeal

        by kyril on Wed Sep 05, 2012 at 01:57:34 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  2nd largest? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Wreck Smurfy

    I thought Quebec was the largest province in Canada.

    •  population = 2nd (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Wreck Smurfy, kyril

      Ontario is 50% larger.

      "It's almost as if we're watching Mitt Romney on Safari in his own country." -- Jonathan Capeheart

      by JackND on Tue Sep 04, 2012 at 09:11:49 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  It is the largest. (0+ / 0-)

      I lived in Montreal, back when I was in my early 20's.

      There's Quebec, and there's the ROC (rest of Canada).

      The ROC doesn't really have a clue about life in Quebec; I sure didn't, until I lived there.

      So very different (but wonderful).

      On another note, someone let off a starter pistol (?) when Marois was making her speech; creating some panic.

      Police caught the guy, no one was hurt (thank goodness).

      The guy they caught was just shown on TV being escorted to a police.  He's wearing a bathrobe.

      Someone set a fire earlier at the back of the Metropolis, while Marois was speaking (same guy? who knows).

      Crazy times.

  •  Someone just tried to assassinate her... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    lineatus, pademocrat, kyril

    right after she said she was going to have another referendum to take Quebec out of Canada.

    He started a fire and then tried to shoot her.

  •  Was it the... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    kyril

    PQ or the Libs that pushed the forced municipal amalgamations?

    "It's almost as if we're watching Mitt Romney on Safari in his own country." -- Jonathan Capeheart

    by JackND on Tue Sep 04, 2012 at 09:11:20 PM PDT

  •  Interesting results (5+ / 0-)

    The PLQ did far better than anyone expected them to do, which pleases me to know end, knowing that the only truly committed federalist party won't be completely eliminated from the Quebec electoral map.  

    I wait with bated breath for the onslaught of intentional confrontations between Quebec and Canada that Ms. Marois promised us as part of her election campaign.  A person who campaigns on intentionally attempting to create a constitutional crisis as a means of pursuing a political aim has no business in any kind of leadership role.

    That her policies in themselves should be deeply offensive to the very progressives who supported the PQ is simply the latest irony of the campaign.  

    Still, it'll be entertaining.  This minority government won't last a full 12 months.

    My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. We still miss you Jack, we'll make you proud.

    by BC Progressive on Tue Sep 04, 2012 at 09:22:28 PM PDT

    •  Well she was just attacked by a Ninja... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      kyril

      with a rifle and smoke grenades...

      An English Ninja calling for an uprising.

      No shit...

      •  Completely unacceptable (0+ / 0-)

        I'm incredibly glad to know that she's safe now, and wish a speedy recovery to the two injured individuals.

        There's absolutely no need for violence like this, except that this is what happens when you run a campaign devoid of anything other than the most vicious attacks that can be found.  The politics of fear has only one true consequence, and we just saw it.

        My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. We still miss you Jack, we'll make you proud.

        by BC Progressive on Tue Sep 04, 2012 at 09:38:10 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I'm glad she was not injured...yet... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          pademocrat, Pierretrudeau

          SHE poisoned the well with her hateful campaign promising to marginalize English people and their language even more than it already has been.  

          Her campaign was disgustingly ethnocentric and it doesn't surprise me she set off some kook with a gun.

          •  Beg to differ (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Wreck Smurfy, BrooklynJohnny

            All the campaigns were full of vitriol.  Doesn't excuse this level or any level of violence against a person for standing up for what they believe in.  This is sickening and will have repercussions we haven't even thought of yet.

            My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. We still miss you Jack, we'll make you proud.

            by BC Progressive on Tue Sep 04, 2012 at 09:52:06 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •   minority (0+ / 0-)

       She will not be able to move on sovereignty with a weak mandate of only 32%..... Libs and CAQ will stifle any moves towards independence....  Charest almost puylled off an upset.... Vive le Quebec.... Vive le Canada....

  •  Are liberals in Canada like (0+ / 0-)

    John Locke liberals?

    Independents are republicans who're squeamish about genocide.

    by sujigu on Tue Sep 04, 2012 at 09:55:31 PM PDT

    •  They're Law and Order Liberals (0+ / 0-)

      About as far to the Left as Lincoln Chaffee.

    •  There's Liberals federally, (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      jan4insight, Wreck Smurfy, kyril

      and there's Liberals provincially (which are not necessarily the same as federal Liberals), and there's liberals i.e. progressives.

      Jean Charest used to be a member of the Conservative party, federally, before he became the leader of the Liberal party in Quebec.

      There's a Liberal party in B.C. which is made up of right wingers of all persuasions.

      They're not John Locke liberals.

      They're just right wing politicians, who are not as far right as right wingers in the U.S.

      BTW the shooting in Montreal? One person has died now.

      This tweet from a reporter:

      Shocking.

    •  The federal Liberals (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      native, erratic

      are a centrist party that aspires to be a Democrat-style 'big tent' but has been failing miserably for the last several decades due to a near-total lack of competence, credibility, and charisma. They have, as far as I can tell, absolutely no philosophical or political convictions of any kind, no particularly strongly-held moral convictions, very little spine, and less than no talent for negotiation.

      They do, however, generally enact non-terrible status-quo policies (liberal by U.S. standards) when in power, because their entire purpose in life is to be reelected by the plurality of Canadians who want to vote for the 'safe' centre-left status quo.

      Each provincial Liberal party is its own organisation. They vary widely, from the reactionary BC Liberals to the fairly-liberal New Brunswick Liberals.

      You can generally guess where a particular Liberal party stands by looking at the other major parties represented at its level: if, as in BC, it's a 2-way race between Liberals and NDP, the Liberals are the conservative party, but if, as in New Brunswick, it's a 2-way race between the Liberals and Conservatives, the Liberals are the liberal party. If both the NDP and some incarnation of the Conservatives are represented, then the Liberals are the shitty centrist party.

      Quebec is in a unique situation: it's a 2-way race between the Liberals and the PQ, but the Liberals are still the shitty centrist party (they have to be in order to collect the votes of everyone who isn't a Quebec Nationalist).

      "Let’s just move on, treat everybody with firmness, fairness, dignity, compassion and respect. Let’s be Marines." - Sgt. Maj Michael Barrett on DADT repeal

      by kyril on Wed Sep 05, 2012 at 02:22:52 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Apparently good news for Quebec students (4+ / 0-)
    Ms. Marois promised that within the first hundred days of taking over, she will abolish the Liberals’ university tuition fee hikes and review the funding of post-secondary education.
    - Globe and Mail

    There's no such thing as a free market!

    by Albanius on Tue Sep 04, 2012 at 10:08:00 PM PDT

  •  thanks for the update for the news "up there". nt (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Wreck Smurfy
  •  It seems to me that Quebec (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    BrooklynJohnny

    wants a progressive government that is not corrupt. That is exactly what I want.

    Republicans must engage in voter suppression to win elections because their ideas stink.

    by Demystification on Wed Sep 05, 2012 at 01:09:16 AM PDT

  •  Separatism is a dead issue. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    native

    Even if Marois could bring a referendum, it would fail miserably. Quebec has moved on.

    Note the shift from the BQ to the NDP last May. That speaks volumes.

    On the other hand, if the PQ focus on governing, they could do well. If they focus on separation, they will suffer the same fate of irrelevancy as did the BQ.

  •  I thought the PQ were so nationlistic to be almost (0+ / 0-)

    insufferable to anything progressive. Wasn't this the party that pushed the separatist meme?

    --Enlighten the people, generally, and tyranny and oppressions of body and mind will vanish like spirits at the dawn of day. - Thomas Jefferson--

    by idbecrazyif on Wed Sep 05, 2012 at 06:27:43 AM PDT

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