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So I usually never talk politics to this person. But I was fired up after Clinton's speech. I don't because I assumed he would vote for Kerry so helped him register (his father is in a Union, middle class, etc.) and he ended up voting for Bush.

Btw I also post because this is an example of A LOT of former R's in Ohio. Why I am sure Obama wins here. He went to Bush's re-election party in 08. Now doesn't even want to vote.

Since then he always shies away from Political convo, and because I can tell that our exxtremist friend makes him not like the far right, I don't want to look far left and push him into voting to spite me.

So we started to talk today and he throws this at me "I am not voting for either" Obama has not done ANYTHING with R's so he has no leadership.

I explained about the Debt Ceiling, that most Liberals were mad he catered too much, even quoted those few I could find in explaining they would prefer he fail over the Country doing well.

I remember many others, but cannot find, I especially wanted to show him that quote I recall from a retired General who was a Republican but said he sees the obstructionism is spilling over to American lives, was disgusted by them, etc. (so if anyone can find, or give me more support I'd appreciate, maybe one more vote in OH).

Below the fold is parts of our Convo

basically was

Him: I am not voting. I don't like either candidate.

Me: There are things I do not like about Obama, but I am still voting. You should think about both and decide. Just like I told a friend of ours who is a hard right R who didn't like Romney you shouldn't not vote for the guy because of Religion. Out of Curiousity, why don't you like Obama?

Him: I think we need leadership, all I see are extremists on both sides doing nothing, he's a smart guy, but I just don't see him working with anyone and does not seem like a leader.

Me: I'd suggest you watch what Clinton said. It was a great speech. Talks about this. And I disagree, really since 09 or so the R's have actively said we don't want him to succeed. (Gave him quotes from McConnell, others, Limbaugh). . .  and to me that is a scary thought. That they want our Country to fail 3 years before an election to avoid re-election.

Him: I don't care about what Limbaugh said.

Me: Well a lot of the Republicans think he is a king maker. And I am quoting the SENATE MINORITY LEADER.

Him: Well I still just don't see it.

Me: Well you've gotta look a bit, realize ppl on the far left are furious at how much he HAS TRIED to cater to the Right. Look at Clinton's speech. If you know about the Debt Ceiling, the R's held the Country up risking way too much see what Geittner said, and he tried to meet with them to resolve (Obama). Or the Health-care, in truth he went across the aisle, and you have a plan the Republicans proposed themselves in 1996 I believe (and Romney's in mass.).

Him: I just dont see any leadership.

Me: Ok well (I know his life is better, hes getting sent to Rotterdam to work for a year) look into that, and otherwise ask yourself do you want other ppl to decide on the far right, far right policies? I want my Social Security Some day, medicare, but most importantly (splicing a bit) is your life better now than it was when we were in chaos? I know mine is.

Him: How is yours? You quit your Job.

Me: I know, I quit because I was a biz attorney, when the subprime mortgage crisis hit, it affected our biggest clients and they stuck me somewhere instead of laying me off and I hated what I did. Now there are at least signs and I was able to get a job I had again in a still difficult market.

Him: Oh yeah and what Policies did Obama do? It was not your individiual initiative.

Me: Me I have been lucky to have gotten Stafford Subsidized Loans, good public education, and other incentives to go to Law School. So no. Also, there was no place for me under Bush, why I got moved to Litigation.

Him: So It's on Bush, you can't have it both ways, that it's Bush's fault are you saying it is he lost his job? Then say its not Obama's.

Me: Well to the extent a Coach says I take full responsibility, yes I blame bush. I can give you a lot of facts as to how his lackadaisical policies  led to the melt-down. And yes I do blame him. Now working more with Commercial banks, who shoulder much of the blame themselves, I see what held our Clients back, and it was a lot of policy, that we are starting to see fixed.

And you are comparing two discreet issues. I can show you directly how Bush and Banks caused the sub-prime crisis and own it. While I can show you "leadership" by bipartisanship, or lack of willingness from the other side that is a general concept.

That's about where we are.

I'd like to show him as many quotes as I can about the Republicans saying we want him to fail, we wanted this to fail. Stuff that'd matter to him. He's middle class, white, BA, good job, in manufacturing in OH.

I do not want to continue to the extent I corner him into spiting me. Thanks for any help.

I'll update.

Also, I think he'd take the word of Military ppl. And would appreciate knowing what Obama has done, and knowing better than I can explain why Obama has done a lot though risky.

Thanks.

CL

10:42 AM PT: Update, Attempting to Convince him to Watch Clinton (apparently he liked him). Also, I'd add I hope this diary shows a bit of what surprised me, that on one hand someone who was an energized Bush voter in OH has little interest. And that the only qualm is about some amorphous concept.

me:  Honestly, I would really watch Clinton's speech

I won't say anymore, not even until the election if you do

he addresses a lot of what you are talking about, it's a great speech and it's about the most honest I've ever seen a politician

him:  The most honest politician who was guilty of purgery?

 me:  If it's not against Federal Voting Laws, I'll pay for your Golf if you watch, LOL.

me: no, i mean what he says is about as Candid as I've ever seen a politician

and, you're in his seat, you gonna admit cheating on (his GF), should've never been an issue

Him:  He was a great president I just found your comment funny

 me:  ha. ok. well he says in speech

"Every politician wants you to think that they grew up in a log cabin that they built"

UPDATE FROM ADVICE II:

me:  Well Obama is speaking tonight. I hope you can watch. I'd rather not convince you. Naming off things. You are a smart enough guy, that I realize you might only convince yourself. I think that most likely you'll see the leadership, and he'll discuss what they did when the Republicans would work with him. If you don't see the leadership tonight, not much more I can say.
 Sent at 1:57 PM on Thursday
 me:  If not discussed, just what a ride it's been. To me:
LEADERSHIP equals:

- Ending the War in Iraq
- Killing Osama bin Laden and many Al Quaeda leaders
- Preventing this country from entering another great depression
- Pushing forward healthcare reform that is SAVING LIVES right now and extends the life of Medicare, depsite resistance in his own administration and his party
- Ending the travesty of Don't Ask Don't Tell
- saving the US auto industry
- doing all of these things despite getting no cooperation from the Republicans and Blue Dogs in Congress (after they stopped cooperating on any level)
 Sent at 2:02 PM on Thursday

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Comment Preferences

  •  He's Already Done About the Most We Could Hope (6+ / 0-)

    for by taking himself out. Hopefully he doesn't vote at all and that gives us a bit of edge downticket as well.

    This guy doesn't look very persuadable to me.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Thu Sep 06, 2012 at 10:07:03 AM PDT

  •  last time you helped him to the booth (3+ / 0-)

    he voted Republican.   I wouldn't help him to decide to vote this time.   He probably has issues he doesn't discuss, emotional reasons for his leaning right, and a rational argument won't help.

    An appeal to an authority figure, such as the general might help, if he is inclined to be influenced by authority.

    Leave sleeping dogs lie,  unless he really loves and spoils his dog, at which point, try the Seamus story.

    •  LOL- he had a dog, but that's character not "lead (0+ / 0-)

      ership"

      Well. To the extent that I got someone engaged in Voting, I am not ashamed.

      Yes, if he heard what I recall about the General (I think)/authoritative figures saying Obama did this to try, or knew legitimate things done with effort to "lead" or that helped him- he would think about voting for Obama.

      He voted for Bush because of my friend who doesn't even like Romney.

      I think a good exercise in general, to get the facts right. And I do not think anything will energize him, he'll be in Rotterdam so I'd have to help him get an oversees ballot.

      •  there's civic duty (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ClevelandAttorney

        when I work registration, I don't ask about inclination.

        When I am doing partisan appeals, I don't try to encourage loose canons to vote for my guy, I don't trust the canon not to blow up on me.

        Leadership is inherent in good relationships with animals, herds, packs, etc. all have leaders,  and the leaders have responsibility to the pack.   Leadership is a two way street, power and responsibility.  Every time Mitt has power, he shows he lacks any sense of responsibility for the outcomes as they affect others.  Without that, you aren't a leader, you're a sociopath, a bully, but not a leader.

  •  i have little patience for people like that (3+ / 0-)

    I admire you for your patience.

    This guy is uninformed and he has no desire to seek or obtain any information.  He just repeats "I don't see any leadership." Unfortunately this is all too common.

    LEADERSHIP equals:

    - Ending the War in Iraq
    - Killing Osama bin Laden and many Al Quaeda leaders
    - Preventing this country from entering another great depression
    - Pushing forward healthcare reform that is SAVING LIVES right now and extends the life of Medicare, depsite resistance in his own administration and his party
    - Ending the travesty of Don't Ask Don't Tell
    - saving the US auto industry
    - doing all of these things despite getting no cooperation from the Republicans and Blue Dogs in Congress

    •  Thanks (0+ / 0-)

      And thanks for the list.

    •  not seeing it (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ClevelandAttorney

      i think there's a lot of voters out there who like the idea of "oh well, nothing to be done, everything sucks."

      eeyore didn't care about looking for his tail, he just wanted it known that everything sucked.

      "Obama saved your mom from a burning house! yeah, but he didn't work with the firefighters enough. i want to see leadership."

      you do some heroic work keeping your patience up while working on your friend. i hope we can all hold the line so staunchly.

      If only Michael Phelps hadn't smoked that pot...imagine what he could have accomplished with motivation and good lung capacity.

      by papa monzano on Thu Sep 06, 2012 at 10:24:10 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  these people are not only stupid (0+ / 0-)

        but they are unpatriotic.  Not being informed and engaged in the democratic process is un-American.  You might as well go live in North Korea if you aren't going to be involved enough to not only vote, but to be informed on who you are choosing between in the voting booth.

        This is why I will never be able to understand the concept of the 'undecided voter.'  Folks, it really isn't that close.  These politicians are not 'all the same'.  They have different positions and support starkly different policies.  

    •  I stole your line. . . (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      tbounnak
      me:  Well Obama is speaking tonight. I hope you can watch. I'd rather not convince you. Naming off things. You are a smart enough guy, that I realize you might only convince yourself. I think that most likely you'll see the leadership, and he'll discuss what they did when the Republicans would work with him. If you don't see the leadership tonight, not much more I can say.
       Sent at 1:57 PM on Thursday
       me:  If not discussed, just what a ride it's been. To me:
      LEADERSHIP equals:

      - Ending the War in Iraq
      - Killing Osama bin Laden and many Al Quaeda leaders
      - Preventing this country from entering another great depression
      - Pushing forward healthcare reform that is SAVING LIVES right now and extends the life of Medicare, depsite resistance in his own administration and his party
      - Ending the travesty of Don't Ask Don't Tell
      - saving the US auto industry
      - doing all of these things despite getting no cooperation from the Republicans and Blue Dogs in Congress (after they stopped cooperating on any level)
       Sent at 2:02 PM on Thursday
       

    •  "Killing Osama bin Laden" (0+ / 0-)

      Rephrase: "Having the brass (balls) to go into Pakistan and Kill Osama bin Laden, something Bush wouldn't do"

      •  something (0+ / 0-)

        candidate obama directly said he would do (against immediately pushback from the pundits and his opponent) and then president obama did.

        half of the problems obama has with his own base stem from him adopting republican starting points as a way to even get them to pretend to govern. they refused him even when he brought them their own legislation (we have a republican state health plan on a national scale and the republicans are still whining about it.)

        he tried to work with them. mcconnall flatly said that would never happen ever.

        he still got things done despite their determination to hold their breath until 2012.

        that's leadership.

        If only Michael Phelps hadn't smoked that pot...imagine what he could have accomplished with motivation and good lung capacity.

        by papa monzano on Thu Sep 06, 2012 at 01:17:19 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  The Pres race is not the only race (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ClevelandAttorney, gramofsam1

    There are down ballot races that are very important. Some of those local races, such as county sheriff, county clerk, district judges, school boards, city supervisors, and county commissioners, are probably  fielded by independents, green party, other 3rd party candidates.

    Maybe there's some propositions and state constitution amendments on the ballot. Plus statewide races like Sec of State that are very important.

    the Republican brand is totally bankrupt.

    by vlyons on Thu Sep 06, 2012 at 10:17:34 AM PDT

    •  Great Point (0+ / 0-)

      Don't want to make until it seems like he opens to the possibility

      1. he has a good life now (better than 08)

      2. that Obama has done a lot, otherwise as said above maybe he clicks on Romney

       . . .

    •  Ok tried, might get there (0+ / 0-)
      me:  Honestly, I would really watch Clinton's speech
      I won't say anymore, not even until the election if you do
      he addresses a lot of what you are talking about, it's a great speech and it's about the most honest I've ever seen a politician
      him:  The most honest politician who was guilty of purgery?
       me:  If it's not against Federal Voting Laws, I'll pay for your Golf if you watch, LOL.

      me: no, i mean what he says is about as Candid as I've ever seen a politician
      and, you're in his seat, you gonna admit cheating on (his GF), should've never been an issue

      Him:  He was a great president I just found your comment funny
       me:  ha. ok. well he says in speech
      "Every politician wants you to think that they grew up in a log cabin that they built"
       

  •  my advice (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ClevelandAttorney, imokyrok

    seriously .. i know a vote for Obama would be great
    but a guy  not voting republican is JUST like a vote for Obama
    also potential downticket  non votes too.

    We lost in 2010 because of Low turnout from democrats ..

    if this guy doesn't want to vote .. make sure he doesn't

    also i would be anti romney around him to disspirit him
    he potentially could go to other republicans with negative romney feelings and keep other republicans from showing up at the polls

    "Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative." - John Stuart Mill

    by smartone on Thu Sep 06, 2012 at 10:19:08 AM PDT

  •  I would really push him to watch Clinton's speech (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ClevelandAttorney

    Do it with a bribe if you have to, like a case of beer, or mowing his lawn or something.

  •  Don't waste your time. (3+ / 0-)

    The more attention you give, the more likely your friend is to be contrarian.  

    The way to win these types of voters is to go about your business and display your own sense of self-assurance and confidence in the candidate you support.  Stuff like that gets these self-absorbed folks to think about things.  One day your friend will ask you about a certain issue and if you have your facts at your disposal, then you might get a receptive audience.  Much better to encourage new voters to vote or those who have been awakened to what the GOP is doing and what the President has done.  

    Alternative rock with something to say: http://www.myspace.com/globalshakedown

    by khyber900 on Thu Sep 06, 2012 at 10:20:15 AM PDT

    •  I think you are right (0+ / 0-)

      But knowing him, it is part that he has several informed Liberal Friends, and Several (uninformed hard Right friends) when it comes up, he gets quiet.

      I trust if he knew the facts and was confident in them, whatever adequacy issue I see in him would fade.

      As in I think he feels like he should be able to engage before he votes, and doesn't have time to. But I will take a minute to give him actual info.

  •  You could always try my Dad's line (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    blueoasis, ClevelandAttorney

    "If you don't vote you can't b@#$%h.- and who would want to give up that?

    Intolerance betrays want of faith in one's cause. Mohandas Gandhi

    by onceasgt on Thu Sep 06, 2012 at 10:33:44 AM PDT

  •  Still does anyone recall (0+ / 0-)

    Flat out quotes that "yes we want him to fail"

    or the quote (perhaps I'm imagining) about a year and a half ago where a Retired (I'd assume) General experienced in I'd think Iraq, said he was disgusted by how everything is to make him look bad, even something so universally agreed upon as what is best for our country's security and our troops, such that he left the Republican party or something like that. . . ?

  •  I'd add it is a mistake to assume (0+ / 0-)

    that someone like him is not intelligent.

    And a mistake. He is. He took AP everything, Calculus etc, is doing extremely well, getting sent to the Netherlands to oversea some project for a year.

    He just falls into the- important- I THINK I am right leaning, don't watch the news.

    It is a mistake to underestimate and not engage entirely civilly in my opinion. What he says is clearly not in furtherance, but knowing him, he'd rather punt than show a lack of savvy. So it is a tite rope.

    There are a lot of ppl like this. I think this is Demonstrative of a few things.

    And PPL like him decide if Obama wins Ohio 51-49, or 55-45.

  •  Stay away from the "It's Bush's fault" line. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Apost8

    The last time he voted was for Bush (and in your diary you wrote 2008, but it was 2004- my nitpick).  So the "my boss stuck me in litigation department because of Bush" ends up reinforcing his "Obama is not a leader" meme.

    RW talk radio uses a straw man that tries to point out that every time Obama references Bush, he's actually abdicating responsibility.  Not true, but it sounds like this meme has some traction with your friend.  So I would advise you avoid  it.

    Maybe play on his positive feelings towards Bush and your friend's apparent red-meat mentality?  Try something along the lines of "You know I didn't like Bush, but I've got to admit that in those days after 9/11, he did show the leadership our country needed at that time.  BUT  I also know that it was Obama who finished the job and sent in our SEALS to nail UBL."

    On the other hand, if he ends up voting it sounds like he's more likely to go Romney than Obama.  And if Ohio ends up sending Willard to the White House, will you be kicking yourself for another 4 years?  Maybe a "meh, maybe you're right, if you don't like either, why vote?" line is the best thing to do with your friend.

    Dont Mourn, Organize !#konisurrender

    by cks175 on Thu Sep 06, 2012 at 11:13:36 AM PDT

  •  One of the most important elections in my life. (0+ / 0-)

    Where to start?

    --Romney and Ryan are both terrible liars.  If for no other reason-- how scary is it to have LIARS in the White House?  To allow liars to win just because they have unlimited money?  Do we want to reward Republicans for this strategy?

    --Republicans always increase deficits & they will cut taxes for the wealthy, again.  This can only make things worse.

    --Republicans always make things harder for the middle class which is exactly why the economy is so slow-- this will only make things worse.

    --They always want more defense spending and more wars.

    --Romney is an ass when it comes to Iran-- how many wars will he want to start? The rest of the world is getting ahead of us on everything while we spend our money on war and our military is overextended as it is.

    --Obamacare is HUGE.  Once you have a preexisting condition under the old system, you are toast... and what about caps?  Does your friend really want Obamacare repealed?

    --The Supreme Court will be full of right-wing partisan morons if Romney appoints the next several justices, and we will get more horrible decisions like Citizens United.  If Obama wins, maybe we can do something about Citizens United.

    --Romney/Ryan will kill medicare and social security.

    All of the above will be on the table with Romney and Ryan, especially if they end up with a majority in both House and Senate.  If your friend looks at the issues along with Romney's and Ryan's flip-flopping and lying, and the possibility that he could end up with a Republican majority in both houses of congress-- and if he STILL isn't terrified--- then he is totally hopeless.

  •  This is a good site forlisting Obamas achievements (0+ / 0-)

    http://pleasecutthecrap.typepad.com/...

    Seems to me though that your friend not voting would be better for your state because he'd probably vote conservative down ticket.  A year in Rotterdam might at least teach him the difference between social democracy and socialism and maybe he'll get to see for himself the benefits of universal healthcare and decent working conditions. His vacation time will likely double for a start!

  •  Talking points (0+ / 0-)

    I see much of this has been mentioned already, but I would just tell him even if you don't agree on everything, Obama has been a very capable President:

    1. He is winning the war on terrorism.  A lot of people said Iraq would fall apart if we pulled out.  Instead, we've been out for almost a year with few incidents.  

    2. He got Osama bin Laden.  A lot of people will claim any president would have, but some top advisers, including the VP and Secretary of Defense thought it was too risky and we should wait until we had more information.  Also, the initial plan called for only 2 helicopters, and Obama insisted they needed more firepower.  If he hadn't done so, they would have been in trouble when that one helicopter crashed.

    http://swampland.time.com/...

    The president made his concerns known in a briefing about 10 days before the assault on the bin Laden compound. According to senior aides, Obama felt that the special operations COA, or course of action, was too risky. Under the COA at that time, only two helicopters would enter Pakistani airspace, leaving little backup if something went wrong. “I don’t want you to plan for an option that doesn’t allow you to fight your way out,” the President told operational planners at the meeting, according to the notes of one participant.
    http://www.time.com/...
    “Don’t worry about keeping things calm with Pakistan,” Obama said to McRaven. “Worry about getting out.”

    McRaven added additional forces; a second group of SEALs would be prepared to take on any Pakistani forces that might try to intervene.

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/...

    Remind him of Jimmy Carter's failed hostage rescue mission, with helicopters crashing in the dessert, and tell him not every president is this effective a Commander-in-Chief.

    3.  He saved the economy.  Remind him we were in freefall, and the stimulus plan worked.  So did the bank bailouts and auto industry rescue, both of which ultimately cost taxpayers nothing, the money has all already been paid back.  The only thing that might still cost something are Fannie and Freddie.  Point out that the bailouts ended the cirsis, and the stimulus began the recovery.  The timing is unmistakable.  

    4.  Point out that there still aren't enough jobs, but unemployment is a lagging indicator.  And even there, the unemployment rate has been improving at the fastest rate since 1994-1995.  In the last 40 years only Reagan in 1984-1985 had a significantly faster improvement in unemployment.

    http://research.stlouisfed.org/...

    5.  Remind him other economic indicators are generally positive, stock markets are booming, industrial production has been strong, and US manufacturing is coming back.

    6. If he mentions the deficit, tell him that he already compromised and passed an agreement, and the CBO says under current law the deficit will be down to 1% of GDP by 2016.  Tell him he has a plan that's even better for teh middle class, with 2.5 times as many spending cuts as revenue increases, but the Republicans are refusing to allow any tax increase at all on the rich.

    7. Tell him that Obamacare may not be perfect, but its an improvement in a lot of ways, and he's the first guy to get anything done there at all.  Remind him Clinton tried and failed.  Remind him much of it is just being implemented and the affordable indsurance exchanges will be available starting in 2014.

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