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 With the benefit of hindsight, people today sometimes wonder how people in the 1920's and 30's could have allowed the Nazis to take over.
   The common response is, "Well, they made the trains run on time."

 The train was an express train to Hell, but it sure did run smoothly.

  Of course, the "train" was only a metaphor. Before the Nazis took over society in Germany, and many other nations in Europe was chaotic. There were coups (usually by fascists), rising crime, terrible poverty and hunger. There was increadible suffering. Generally speaking, things did not work.
   The public had been betrayed by the incompetence and greed of the political and financial elites. So they turned to strongmen who would put people to work (building weapons of war) and bring safety and security (with an iron fist).

   It appears we haven't learned anything.

  Golden Dawn is an in-your-face neo-Nazi party in Greece. They don't try to hide their political leanings, and like the brownshirts of the 1920's, they like to brawl in the streets. In fact, many of their trademark pledges are taken straight from the brownshirts.
   Recently, elected members of parliament were filmed attacking immigrant street vendors. Golden Dawn proudly defended the action.

Meanwhile, the party vowed to continue raids targeting migrant street traders without permits. A statement posted on the Golden Dawn website said raids would continue across the country, until authorities “decide to do their job and stop encouraging illegality.”
 Golden Dawn members have assaulted liberal MPs on live TV, as well as beaten, murdered, and raped immigrants.

  So where is the Greek police during all this?
Well, for starters, they are fighting each other.

 Scuffles broke out as riot police tried to clear the entrance of several dozen police union members - many in uniform - chanting anti-austerity slogans and holding banners.
    "They would not let riot police buses depart for Thessaloniki," a police official said, referring to the northern city hosting a weekend trade fair where anti-austerity demonstrations are planned.
   Police, firefighters and coast guard officers plan to hold a separate protest later on Thursday in central Athens.
  Before you sympathise with the police, be aware that over half of them voted for Golden Dawn.
   The government responded to the pressure from the far right with a massive crackdown on both illegal and legal immigrants.

 So what does the Greek public think about this? They seem to approve.

 Capitalizing on growing social unrest over record unemployment, resentment against immigrants and rising crime, and planned new government austerity measures, the neo-Nazi Golden Dawn party has jumped into third place in popularity among Greek political parties, overtaking the once-dominant PASOK Socialists.
 Golden Dawn now polls better than TWO of the current coalition parties. To demonstrate how much things have changed, Golden Dawn only got 0.29% of the vote in 2009, while PASOK got 44%.
   If the election was held today, Golden Dawn would get 10.5%, while PASOK would get 8%.

   Things are so bad in Greece that 1/10th of the population has left in just a year.
   Meanwhile the mainstream parties are looking to cut services and raise taxes yet again. They seem to be completely oblivious to the suffering and chaos around them, only wanting to satisfy their banking masters.

Fascism on the march in Hungary

   It's important to remember that fascism is a populist movement.
In Greece, Golden Dawn is getting known for giving free-food to the hungry (but only if you can prove you are a Greek citizen) and fighting last summers wildfires.
    But since Golden Dawn doesn't try to hide it's Nazism, it is unlikely to ever have a more than local political effect.

  Jobbik in Hungary, on the other hand, is much more dangerous.
As Paul Krugman put it:

  Jobbik, is a nightmare out of the 1930s: it’s anti-Roma (Gypsy), it’s anti-Semitic, and it even had a paramilitary arm. But the immediate threat comes from Fidesz, the governing center-right party.... Now Fidesz, which rammed through a new Constitution last spring on a party-line vote, seems bent on establishing a permanent hold on power.
 Thousands of Hungarian gypsies are appealing for political asylum overseas.
   The real problem is that the Fidesz politicians are so smooth and professional even while preaching hate.

"this is important for everyone to understand very clearly—we are also not democrats.”
  -  Gabor Vona, Jobbik leader

   What makes Fidesz so dangerous is that Fidesz also pushes programs that progressives would strongly support. For instance, they ban all GMO products.

 In an effort to rid the country of Monsanto's GMO products, Hungary has stepped up the pace. This looks like its going to be another slap in the face for Monsanto. A new regulation was introduced this March which stipulates that seeds are supposed to be checked for GMO before they are introduced to the market.
 Wikileak documents have shown that Monsanto had deep connections in the corridors of Washington, but have failed to stop Hungary from defying them.

   More importantly, Fidesz managed to pass a bank transaction tax, as well as restrictions on the central bank. Fidesz is actively resisting IMF demands for more austerity.

  You can probably see how some people in Hungary might want to look the other way on the racism and authoritarian issues, while the government stands up for them against multi-national corporations, banks, and the IMF in this time of crisis.

  We seem to be locked into cycle. Where the political and financial elite bankrupt the world through incompetence, then try to suck it dry through short-sighted greed. they break everything in the process. In the chaos that follows, a strongman always emerges that promises to fix things as long as we give him unlimited power and we scapegoat some the most helpless minority available.
   When will we ever learn?

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Comment Preferences

  •  Eurozone Leadership Is Desperate (12+ / 0-)

    To keep the money supply artificially low. I don't know why this is, but they are willing to do anything except print money to the size required to satisfy the needs of the economies of the member states. They will end up destroying weaker countries in the monetary union to save the Euro ... and wrecking severe damage on France and Germany.

    I don't know what the social and political effects might be on Europe ... It seems hard to imagine that it will be positive.

    "I'll believe that corporations are people when I see Rick Perry execute one."

    by bink on Tue Sep 11, 2012 at 05:42:12 AM PDT

    •  I can think of one reason (8+ / 0-)

      Germany's economy is doing fine (almost the only country in the Eurozone that is). They don't need to print money.
         They are also the creditors of the Euro, thus they hold a lot of power.

        If things keep going like they are, by the time Greece leaves the Euro it will be too late. The fascists will have taken over, or be set to take over.

      ¡Cállate o despertarás la izquierda! - protest sign in Spain

      by gjohnsit on Tue Sep 11, 2012 at 05:54:53 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Isn't fascism simply... (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        G2geek, gjohnsit, jfromga

        ...a reaction to the excesses of a transnational global economy: Both then and now?

        There are only so many options to choose from on the political cold cuts chopping board.

        A Catholic, Jew, Muslim and Buddhist walk into Al Aqsa Mosque. Buddhist immediately exclaims: "excuse me I appear to be in the wrong joke."

        by Salo on Tue Sep 11, 2012 at 07:24:42 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  No. Fascism's a bullshit rationale for psychopaths (0+ / 0-)

          and sociopaths to gain enough money and power that they can fuck whoever they want, however they want.

          It's a reaction to nothing other than their diseased psyche. And they are always looking for any way at all by which they can gain leverage. Objective conditions mean nothing to them, and they never stop until they die.


          The Internet is just the tail of the Corporate Media dog.

          by Jim P on Tue Sep 11, 2012 at 02:22:38 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  well, yes (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Jim P, gjohnsit

            but when fascists are the only thing standing between you and starvation, they look pretty damn good.

            That's the problem with limiting yourself to only two choices:  Bad and less bad.  

            We really should take heed.

            "None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." - Goethe

            by jlynne on Tue Sep 11, 2012 at 05:30:40 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  From crazy conspiracy theory books, (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        OMwordTHRUdaFOG, gjohnsit

        which involved super weapons of the future and stuff, there is an interesting, and well-documented case of the Nazi's (plundered) fortunes being buried in South American banks and German conglomerates, none of which was confiscated. Such authors claim the idea was "well, winning a war won't work, just take the time to gain German domination through economic shenanigans."

        We know now, it's a matter of public knowledge stated plainly in official sources, if you care to read it, that up to 20,000 former Nazis/Industrialists were sheep-dipped and ended up working for the US science establishment or spying in Europe on the Commies, living in South America, or remaining key figures in the German establishment.

        The conspiracy theory is no doubt insane. But then the tale, and the current reality, reminds me of another whacky book titled "Nothing in this book is true, but it's exactly how things are."

        NY Times, "...Safe Haven..." http://www.nytimes.com/...

        The Ratline: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/...

        Operation Paperclip: http://en.wikipedia.org/...

        Der Spiegel: http://en.wikipedia.org/...

        All of the above were claimed to be whacky conspiracy theories in their day. Turns out they weren't.


        The Internet is just the tail of the Corporate Media dog.

        by Jim P on Tue Sep 11, 2012 at 02:19:28 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Because printing money... (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Iberian, kefauver, Cliss, lotlizard

      ...is always a disaster and they know it. Driving wheelbarrows full of Deutschmarks down the street in exchange for a loaf of bread is within the living memory of some Germans.

      Printing money isn't the solution, the solution, such as it is, is for periphery countries to become competitive and fix their structural economic problems.

      (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
      Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

      by Sparhawk on Tue Sep 11, 2012 at 06:50:15 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Horse shit. You know nothing about economics. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        shmuelman, Deep Texan, Jim P

        Or the solutions to the probems in Europe. Please get yourself informed instead of spouting clichés. You can start here:
        http://www.georgesoros.com/...

        The case against Assange debunked: http://www.nnn.se/nordic/assange/suspicious.pdf

        by expatjourno on Tue Sep 11, 2012 at 07:09:44 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  There are (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          kefauver, Woody, lotlizard

          more eloquent and convincing form of disagreement. Both of Soros and Sparhaw are right. Yes, they can both be right.

          Germany's leadership has inflationphobia for the historical reason but also because right now the full working Germany is really a little of a trick: there are many people with partime subsidiced jobs. A rise of inflation will affect a lot the artificially low German employment. Soros solutions are in general sensible but for them to happen there needs to be a larger political cohesion between the euro countries and the German public opinion ain't happy with any of it, understandably. And all that does not help the structural problems that Spain and Italy and Greece have DOes have to be solved locally and structural problems are the ones that hardly ever get solved

          •  Spain and Italy don't have structural problems. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            mookins

            It is simply wrong to lump them together with Greece.

            The case against Assange debunked: http://www.nnn.se/nordic/assange/suspicious.pdf

            by expatjourno on Tue Sep 11, 2012 at 07:38:37 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Oh they do (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Sparhawk

              No where as bad as Greece's but they do have'em. Hell listen to any politician form the left or right in both countries and they'll tell you they do have them. Most countries have some structural problems

              Greece was the epitome of the idea, present in other Mediterranean countries, that when your party gets in power you get a job in government or subsidy or agency or whatever for anyone in your side. Political appointees are not just the head of gov. agencies but from them down to the janitorial staff. Also in Spain and Italy the collusion of politicos and certain banks and industries that were once nationalized but they are not but kind of is very detrimental. Gov. investment is so centered in building thing cause everyone can see them and you can have a big inaugural speech that investment in research and education is suffering

              Just to name a few

              •  Germany has structural problems. The UK has... (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Pescadero Bill

                ...structural problems. France has structural problems. The U.S. has structural problems.

                Name a country that does not have structural problems.

                The case against Assange debunked: http://www.nnn.se/nordic/assange/suspicious.pdf

                by expatjourno on Tue Sep 11, 2012 at 10:27:47 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Is it different in the USA (0+ / 0-)

                As I look at NY State, I say no. I see the same things here.

                Trouble is, the number of gov't workers in Greece is smaller than it is not only in the eurozone, but also the USA, by proportion.

                Yet all the blame goes to the little people. Few look at the massive corruption at the top. And the racist stuff is mere distraction.

                There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

                by upstate NY on Tue Sep 11, 2012 at 08:32:08 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  Why do people differentiate between... (0+ / 0-)

              huge debts racked up by the private sector and huge debts racked up by the public sector?

              In both cases, we have easy money creating asset bubbles. It happened in Spain, it happened in Greece. Why valorize private debt over public debt, especially when the common occurrence is for private debt to become private debt.

              Spain began this debacle with 40% debt to GDP. They are at 95% now in 2 short years, and rising fast. So why valorize private debt when it has all been made public debt? Same with Ireland.

              We need to look at total amounts of debt, realize that this debt was used to stoke demand and give the appearance of hot economies (Spain and Greece were being lauded for growth as recently as 2008).

              The key thing to look at is malinvestment. if you're squandering your money on military weaponry (Greece) or on asset bubble construction (Spain) you will be left with a big headache.

              Our experience is that private debt becomes public debt, therefore we should not differentiate too much between both forms of malinvestment. The private sector can be as spendthrift as the public one, if not moreso.

              There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

              by upstate NY on Tue Sep 11, 2012 at 08:36:19 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  become competitive with who? n/t (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        nchristine

        "Minus two votes for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

        by G2geek on Tue Sep 11, 2012 at 07:31:37 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Germany, China, and the US of course..... (0+ / 0-)
          •  let's see... (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            semiot, jfromga, Jim P

            .... competitive with high-wage/high-skill Germany, and competitive with low-wage/high-skill China, and competitive with (however you want to characterize it) USA.

            Sounds like a three-way contradiction in terms.

            About which, may I make a modest proposal?

            There's too much competition and not enough cooperation.

            These "peripheral" countries (they sure aren't peripheral to the millions of people living there!) need to cooperate more with each other.  

            And the working masses of the world need to cooperate more with each other.

            More solidarity, less divisiveness.

            After all, we've seen what all this "competitiveness" has done to the rights and dignity and quality of life of so many people in so many countries.  

            Taking more of the same medicine isn't a cure, it's an overdose.

            It's time to try a different medicine.  

            "Minus two votes for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

            by G2geek on Tue Sep 11, 2012 at 08:01:15 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  The workers need to work with each other against (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              G2geek

              the corporat overlords, agreed.  But, that's what the powers will say, be more like Germany, or China, or wherever.

              "they sure aren't peripheral to the millions of people living there!"  - couldn't agree more.

            •  The Industrial Workers of the World ("Wobblies"*) (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              gjohnsit, jfromga, G2geek

              … had the right idea? But look what happened to them?

              * Not to be confused with Woobies

              The Dutch kids' chorus Kinderen voor Kinderen wishes all the world's children freedom from hunger, ignorance, and war.

              by lotlizard on Tue Sep 11, 2012 at 08:30:37 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  they got us the 5-day work week. (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                lotlizard, gjohnsit

                If I'm not mistaken, the slogan was "five days for the boss, one day for God, and one day to do whatever you like."

                I think the Wobs are still around.  They need to go bigtime and make a meme-splash for themselves, so they become at least as well known and "cool" as Anonymous.  

                "Minus two votes for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

                by G2geek on Tue Sep 11, 2012 at 10:42:30 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  Hey whatever (0+ / 0-)

              The reality is that these countries are dependent right now on deficit spending. They can't "take another medicine" because no one can be forced to give these countries loans or grants if they don't want to.

              (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
              Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

              by Sparhawk on Tue Sep 11, 2012 at 09:16:02 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  ahh, but loans for what exactly? (0+ / 0-)

                Any country that can provide its own food and water and public health (sanitation + vaccination) can extract itself from the entanglements of empire.  All it takes is the national will.  

                To be very clear about this:

                What I propose is that national economies should be self-sufficient in the essentials, and engage in trade in luxury and peripheral goods & services.  

                To achieve essential self-sufficiency, there's a chicken-and-egg problem with family planning & birth control on one hand, and basic economic security on the other hand.  But once a virtuous spiral gets started on this, the dynamic becomes self-reinforcing.  The population/consumption/resource equations balance out, and the system can run on a steady-state basis indefinitely.

                "Minus two votes for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

                by G2geek on Tue Sep 11, 2012 at 10:55:14 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  The 19th Century "survival of the fittest" (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              G2geek, gjohnsit

              is being slowly replaced by the realization that real life favors the survival of the cooperative. Unfortunately, the basic assumptions of the official scientific world -- well as Max Planck said "Science advances one funeral at a time."


              The Internet is just the tail of the Corporate Media dog.

              by Jim P on Tue Sep 11, 2012 at 02:25:39 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  the paradigm is changing. (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Jim P, gjohnsit

                Scientists who study living organisms recognize the value of cooperation and various other forms of mutuality in ecosystems.  

                "Minus two votes for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

                by G2geek on Tue Sep 11, 2012 at 10:44:32 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

      •  It's a disaster for the rich. (5+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        G2geek, Woody, semiot, wu ming, jfromga

        Inflation is bad, if you have a lot of money.  If you have a lot of debt, it is good.  Hyperinflation is bad for everyone, of course, and no one advocates for it, but hyperinflation is an aggravated symptom of political chaos historically, not the result of monetary policy.

        •  Inflation benefits those with... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          gjohnsit

          ...first access to money and credit, mainly the rich and upper middle class technical specialists who can easily renegotiate their salaries. Ever wonder why the real purchasing power of minimum wage has fallen since 1970 or so? Minimum wage workers can't negotiate their salaries, when gas goes to $5 they just don't buy shoes for their kid.

          (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
          Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

          by Sparhawk on Tue Sep 11, 2012 at 09:19:52 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  They *do* "print money" . . . (6+ / 0-)

        just as has the US Fed with the Trillions and Trillions of "stimulus" Dollars.

        The problem is that they then give it to the rich, who are then supposed to lend it to the poor.  And collect the interest.

        The stupidity of that is so obvious that any party or political movement which points it out starts on third base, regardless how vile and absurd their other "platform positions" are.  Just saying "NO" to enriching the rich at the expense of the poor has a certain (entirely justified) Populist appeal . . . and plays to certain long-standing prejudices as well.  In times past it has fueled the rise of Communism and Fascism both, depending only on who got to the podium first . . .

        Fake Left, Drive Right . . . not my idea of a Democrat . . .

        by Deward Hastings on Tue Sep 11, 2012 at 08:05:12 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Austerity in action (6+ / 0-)

    NOW SHOWING
    Progressive Candidate Obama (now - Nov 6, 2012)
    Bipartisan Obama returns (Nov 7, 2012)

    by The Dead Man on Tue Sep 11, 2012 at 05:45:59 AM PDT

  •  if you know anyone in/around London (5+ / 0-)

    you could tell them about this event, in which the SPLC are participating:

    A Special Relationship of Hate?' 50 years of the Anglo-American Far-Right

  •  Romania is also having some issues ... (11+ / 0-)

    isn't it? This item stood out in your discussion:

    There were coups (usually by fascists), rising crime, terrible poverty and hunger. There was increadible suffering. Generally speaking, things did not work.
    Yes, the right wing undermines the state and then puts itself forward as the solution to the problems besetting the state.

    It's the refutation of the Naderian argument that things have to get worse before people will be ready for a progressive solution. To the contrary in many instances things getting worse is seen as justification for more of the very policies that cause the problems (e.g., austerity).

    "The smartest man in the room is not always right." -Richard Holbrooke

    by Demi Moaned on Tue Sep 11, 2012 at 05:57:56 AM PDT

  •  The major flaw with democracy (8+ / 0-)

    is that it can be used to vote itself out of existence.

  •  Well, when you give the people (17+ / 0-)

    a choice between corporate fascists and local fascists, it's a good bet that fascists are going to win.

    •  Fascism 2.0 (6+ / 0-)

      I thank the diarist for bringing this up because it's quite important, and the comments on this board are excellent (with their additions of the immigration angle and the Xtianist/dominionist angle.)
            No doubt we are seeing some replays of what I call Fascism 1.0 in Europe and in the USA in the ultra-nationalism or the Reichving, as well as the anti-immigrant/Muslim scapegoating (that has some, and ONLY some, parallels to the persecution of Jews, Gypsies/Romas, Slavs and other "sub-human" groups as practiced by the Nazis when they really got going.)
           The street violence in Greece is worrisome (and a key difference with the USA's situtation. When Adolf and his gang were trying to bring down the Weimar Republic, they had constant street battles with the Communists (who were also trying to bring down the Weimar Republic.) The police were caught in the middle and constantly out-manned. When the trouble-makers came to trial the RW defense was always along the lines of "defending the Fatherland" and "saving Germany from Communism". The Nazi party was consistently good about bailing their guys out and paying their fines.) As much noise and chanting as the Brooks Brothers rioters made in Miami in 2000 and the Tea Partiers did at Town hall meetings during 2009, there is simply no comparison.
            But my concern is actually that we take into account the rise of
      Fascism 2.0

      (As I wrote in June of 2010 on these comment boards, and earlier too, but I can't seem to find this from '09 or '08)

      Ignoring the subtleties for a moment, in the fascism of the 20th century (Italy, Germany, Spain, Austria, Portugal, Indonesia, and to a degree, Argentina and South Africa) we saw a marriage of governmental and corporate power. This collusion I think is one of the hallmarks of fascism.
            But in this partnership of the 1920s and 1930s, the government was the senior partner. Corporations had only become noticeable and significant players on the economic and political scene in the late 19th and early 20th century. And while corporations such as Fiat or the Ruhr steelmakers had foreign operations they were typically the big fish in their own national ponds.
            Under Mussoliini, Adolf der F., Salazar, Dolfuss, et. al. the government was the senior partner and the corporations were rewarded (tax breaks, government contracts, busting of labor unions, favorable regulation, hiring and job preferences for members of the "master Race") for supporting GOVERNMENTAL/NATIONALISTIC goals. Benito wanted to make Italy a new Roman Empire. Adolf longed for a greater Germany, etc.
            What has changed in our current day is a REVERSAL of  power in the partnership. I think the corporations are the senior partner, particularly the multi-nationals, in what we might call Fascism 2.0. The faceless CEOs and financiers of the global Ultra-Rich 1000 (people) still want the same goodies as 80 years ago (tax breaks, juicy public contracts, docile labor force, whether native, immigrant, or off-shored, regulatory breaks) but they want them for their own ends, and they are calling the tune for governments.
            Multi-nationals spent the mid-20th century practicing in places like Latin America and Africa. They ran experiments via the IMF  and the World Bank to see what policies would work in their favor without bringing about wholesale revolt among the masses or utter exposure and ruin by the intelligensia and good government types. Now in the last ten years or so they have opened fire on the North Atlantic basin.
            They behave recklessly with state/provincial or national pension funds, create unsustainable credit bubbles, lose billions (to each other; its how the ultra-rich 1000 people in the world keep score) and then expect to be rewarded by bailouts.
           In Rupert Murdoch enterprises and Faux Noise TV and Clear Channel radio and newspapers (McClatchey an exception) they run a ceaseless propaganda effort that would shame Goebbels, that extols corporations and denigrates any non-market approaches or solutions to any social issue.      
           They buy off politicians (cf. the Bush administration), corrupt or buy out the legal system (cf. how many bankers from 2008 have gone to jail in the US?), and create fake political pressure groups to frighten politicians (see Dick Armey's "Freedom Works" creation and sustained funding of the Tea Party.) They use revolving door lobbyists of former lawmakers and lawyers to escape taxes (Caymans), liability (BP oil spill), and accountability (no public audits of Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan et. al. before receiving $700billion in bailouts from (Citibank's) Treasury Secretary Hank Paulsen. (Later presided over by Citibank's NEW Treasury Secretary Tim Geithner.)
           They tell the governments of sovereign nations like Iceland, Greece, Ireland or Portugal (and now threatening Spain and Italy) "Either carry out our agenda of goodies, or we will bust you and leave you to the flies, and the voters will carve up your bodies. We, of course, will be sipping champagne in Monaco while you face street riots."

      If I'm right this development needs to be noted as we formulate plans to fight back.

      So yes, its incipient fascism, but as Mark Twain once said, "History doesn't repeat, but it rhymes."

      Just don't try to press every thing onto a 1920s-30s template. There has been evolution.

      Shalom.
       

      "God has given wine to gladden the hearts of people." Psalm 104:15

      by WineRev on Tue Sep 11, 2012 at 10:34:30 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I agree (0+ / 0-)

        we really need to recognize that government is not just another corporate form, and the idea that government can operate fairly and efficiently on that model is the biggest lie in American politics.

        "None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." - Goethe

        by jlynne on Tue Sep 11, 2012 at 05:35:09 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Makes you wonder if the human race is doomed (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    blueoasis, G2geek, Cliss, gjohnsit, jfromga

    to repeat its mistakes over and over again.  To see fascism again return in times of strife makes me wonder (and worry) for us here in the US with the mainstream acceptance of rightwing radicalism.  I truly hope reason prevails both here and across the Atlantic.  Just not so sure.

    "They love the founding fathers so much they will destroy everything they created and remake it in Rush Limbaughs image." MinistryofTruth, 9/29/11

    by AnnieR on Tue Sep 11, 2012 at 06:29:56 AM PDT

    •  It doesn't have to happen (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      AnnieR

      mankind can easily prevent it.
      But it does show a flaw in our economic and political system that has not been fixed.

      ¡Cállate o despertarás la izquierda! - protest sign in Spain

      by gjohnsit on Tue Sep 11, 2012 at 08:27:37 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  How do we fix the flaw - and what is the flaw (0+ / 0-)

        in the first place?  I'm just curious since I come at most problems from an emotional standpoint.  Just seems like we're more vulnerable to extremism emotionally when economic times are bad.  I'd like to think there's a fix but don't know where to start.
         

        "They love the founding fathers so much they will destroy everything they created and remake it in Rush Limbaughs image." MinistryofTruth, 9/29/11

        by AnnieR on Tue Sep 11, 2012 at 09:49:32 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  And the Tea Party differs only by degree (8+ / 0-)

    We think of the Tea Party as a bunch of nutters that are new to the political arena.  In reality, they've been hiding beneath the surface of the Republican party for a long time.  They've been silent about their true beliefs for fear of public repudiation.

    There fear has diminished with their newly found power in the party.  We see signs of their fascism with the wide spread attempts to stop some people from voting, their racism, their violent speech on their websites, but do we really know to what extent they would go if they had full power?  I'm afraid it would be much further than we would like to believe.

    America has had a violent and very undemocratic past for many groups.  Just as the Europeans are experimenting with their disturbing past, I fear the apathy and chaos here could lead us back to a past, and maybe worse, we had hoped was over.

    •  The real fascists in the US... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      G2geek

      ...no longer appear to have time for the USA. The Tea Party is all Ra Ra Ra! flag waving still. Its gone beyond that nowadays. "Patriotard" is a moniker the extremists use to describe them.

      A Catholic, Jew, Muslim and Buddhist walk into Al Aqsa Mosque. Buddhist immediately exclaims: "excuse me I appear to be in the wrong joke."

      by Salo on Tue Sep 11, 2012 at 07:19:34 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Nationalism (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        pollwatcher, PhilK, jlynne

        is one of the critical parts of fascism.

        ¡Cállate o despertarás la izquierda! - protest sign in Spain

        by gjohnsit on Tue Sep 11, 2012 at 08:28:50 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Nationalism WAS/IS (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          gjohnsit, jlynne

          a critical part of Fascism 1.0 as done in the 1920s and 1930s, agreed. There are signs the Greek riots and the French tensions are replaying this.

          However, see my comment above regarding Fascism 2.0. If this is what we face, then nationalism will be a secondary issue.

          Excellent diary, gjohnsit!

          Shalom.

          "God has given wine to gladden the hearts of people." Psalm 104:15

          by WineRev on Tue Sep 11, 2012 at 10:36:59 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Nationalism (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            nchristine, gjohnsit

            will always play an important part in controlling the masses.  The fact that our corporate owners no longer buy into the jingoism is critical to understanding, but not to functionality.

            "None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." - Goethe

            by jlynne on Tue Sep 11, 2012 at 05:37:13 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  I don't think that the collection of miscreants (0+ / 0-)

      called the Tea Party even differs by degree.

  •  Over half of Greek police in *Athens* (5+ / 0-)

    may have voted for Golden Dawn.

    That comes from one newspapers very shaky numbers. I encourage everyone to read the linked RT article and draw their own conclusions.

    Everything else in this diary is completely accurate, which is why it's got my tip and rec. This is an important issue. The facts of this issue are bad enough that we don't even need the conjecture here.

    However, knowing WN tactics, it would not surprise me at all if GD was trying to recruit from the police, and other people who have the power to back up a coup.

    An Fhirinn an aghaidh an t'Saoghail. (The truth against the world.) Is treasa tuath na tighearna. (The common people are mightier than the lords.)

    by OllieGarkey on Tue Sep 11, 2012 at 06:51:36 AM PDT

  •  I'm a little more worried about the rise... (9+ / 0-)

    ...of fascism in the U.S. It's way, way farther along there.

    The case against Assange debunked: http://www.nnn.se/nordic/assange/suspicious.pdf

    by expatjourno on Tue Sep 11, 2012 at 07:06:02 AM PDT

    •  Yes. People don't realize the Tea Party is, in (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      dianamherrera, G2geek, expatjourno, Cliss

      essence, fascist.  Just look at Paul Ryan and his Ayn Rand-inspired dogma, or Totaliarian Sarah Palin.  Nationalistic, corporate-hugging, racist, education-killing zealots, all.

      Republicans...What a nice club...of liars, cheaters, adulterers, exaggerators, hypocrites and ignoramuses. Der Spiegel -6.62, -6.92

      by CanyonWren on Tue Sep 11, 2012 at 07:21:13 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I disagree. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        gjohnsit

        Ryan appears to still believe in America whereas many right wingers have abandoned the concept altogether. From what I can tell during recent research (i've got a paper coming out) the right have more or less abandoned the GOP to the neoconservatives.  They have ceased to make populist appeals to the white working class as they have become a technocratic management party.

         I don't think the GOP are particularly racist either. The racist white voter doesn't seem to consider the dogwhistle stuff to signify anything. Their voter base is just becoming exclusively white by default, not by choice and many of the extremists have walked away from them.

        A Catholic, Jew, Muslim and Buddhist walk into Al Aqsa Mosque. Buddhist immediately exclaims: "excuse me I appear to be in the wrong joke."

        by Salo on Tue Sep 11, 2012 at 07:46:04 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  It's anxiety about immigration from the 3rd world (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Deep Texan, Cliss, Eryk, gjohnsit

    The most significant revival of Fascism is in France (both in terms of the size of the country and the size of the FN vote).  This has been driven by a combination of factors.

    1. A rising sense that the ethnically French population no longer rules the republic. White birth rates down and immigration up--immigrants with higher birthrates.  So there's a sense right or wrong that France is disappearing as an ethne.  (this applies in much of Western Europe too)

    2. A decade of Arab/muslim riots in the north and south: Paris, Amiens, Marsailles etc. I think there's a book written by a French laureate called "Camp of The Saints" which enjoys wide circulation. (It's a French dystopian novel about boat refugees swamping France, like a literate Turner Diaries)

    3. This election cycle is effectively solidifying a vast swathe of the ethnically French vote. What did Le Pen get in the first round? 25-30%?  Within 30 years the socialists will be an alliance of Africans, middle easterners and a cadre of ethnically French liberal types and the right will be exclusively white-French.  Curiously this is how the Republicans are now in the US.

    The issue here is what difference certain forms of fascism mean. Spain becoming fascist didn't affect anyone especially.
    France has at various times become a nationalistic nation with out unduly hurting neighbours.  Germany becoming a hyper nationalist state is the only thing that really could disturb anything.

    Greece?  They are so anarchic that i'd not worry about them.  
    Junta, Spartiate, Kingdom blah blah blah small fry.

    A Catholic, Jew, Muslim and Buddhist walk into Al Aqsa Mosque. Buddhist immediately exclaims: "excuse me I appear to be in the wrong joke."

    by Salo on Tue Sep 11, 2012 at 07:14:17 AM PDT

    •  One more point... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      gjohnsit

      ...what the rise of Fascism might mean is that some of these historical nations in Europe will splinter in smaller nation states through partition and civil war, or break down as separatist movements make them non viable.

      A Catholic, Jew, Muslim and Buddhist walk into Al Aqsa Mosque. Buddhist immediately exclaims: "excuse me I appear to be in the wrong joke."

      by Salo on Tue Sep 11, 2012 at 07:28:03 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Europe has gone through unification and separation (0+ / 0-)

        many times over history.  Germany, in particular, has a very long history of this.  So does Italy.  It really wouldn't surprise me if the Lombards thought poorly of the Napleonites, over the Saxons, over the Low Lands, over the Burgundians, etc.... One just has to see the Basques arguing who's Spanish over the Castilians.  Very much like the US in the north vs south vs south east vs southwest vs pacific northwest, etc.

        •  Italy doesn't seem too troubled. (0+ / 0-)

          France is probably the most likely to become McNasty.  Yet it's also one of the longest running unified nations in Europe.

          A Catholic, Jew, Muslim and Buddhist walk into Al Aqsa Mosque. Buddhist immediately exclaims: "excuse me I appear to be in the wrong joke."

          by Salo on Tue Sep 11, 2012 at 08:00:15 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  True, but if things start to 'explode', I wouldn't (0+ / 0-)

            be surprised by regional identity trumping national.  We both know that there are differences of opinions between north and south Italy and it's mostly because of ethnic histories.  True that France is one of the longest unified countries, but again, there are differences within the country that most Americans are completely unaware of.  Germany has always had trouble remaining unified for very long.  Germans can be a stuborn lot.

            Will all the European countries break up into nation states??  Probably not.  But how they remain a 'unified' country may not be very pretty in the short run.  I just hope that if any of the countries do decide to break apart they go more the way of the Czech and Slovak Republics than Yugoslavia.

            •  Italy is vulnerable (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              gjohnsit

              as there is a very pronounced North/South divide.  You can actually see it when you travel.

              France? Breton nationalists?  Alsatians?  The rise fo the Vendee? Not so much. What you will get is Arab v French.

              A Catholic, Jew, Muslim and Buddhist walk into Al Aqsa Mosque. Buddhist immediately exclaims: "excuse me I appear to be in the wrong joke."

              by Salo on Tue Sep 11, 2012 at 08:30:32 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  that is true (0+ / 0-)

        Civil war, especially in Greece, is a possibility.

        ¡Cállate o despertarás la izquierda! - protest sign in Spain

        by gjohnsit on Tue Sep 11, 2012 at 08:33:13 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I can't agree (0+ / 0-)

      You can't start being concerned about fascism when it reaches your door (or in this case, Germany).

      ¡Cállate o despertarás la izquierda! - protest sign in Spain

      by gjohnsit on Tue Sep 11, 2012 at 08:32:29 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  That's a recipe for perpetual war. (0+ / 0-)

        Most of the third world is one form of fascism or another. Saddam was a fascist for example.

        One more point about Greece is that they have spent much of the independent history as a rightwing junta. The embarrasing thing for the left is that fascism is as popular there as it is

        A Catholic, Jew, Muslim and Buddhist walk into Al Aqsa Mosque. Buddhist immediately exclaims: "excuse me I appear to be in the wrong joke."

        by Salo on Tue Sep 11, 2012 at 09:51:20 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  You are exactly right about Greek history (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          gjohnsit

          I think most even at DailyKos have fallen for the propaganda of Greece as a decades long Socialist basketcase of gov't programs on borrowed money.

          It's just not true.

          Greece has had a long history of fascism. The 1800s under the king were brutal.

          Then there was the national schism in the 1920s where the north had a Democratic gov't while the south had the regime.

          In the 1930's, they had an openly Fascist gov't with Metaxas as dictator. Maybe people think of Greece as a leftist anti-fascist country because Metaxas (a fascist himself) told Mussolini and Hitler to take a hike. Thus began Greece's resistance against the fascists.

          Unfortunately, despite a huge number of dead in that resistance, Greece also had a quisling gov't under the Nazis.

          After WW2, Greece entered into a civil war that ended with a military proxy gov't for the USA. The leaders were literally all trained at Langley, Va. Greece's first sniff of democracy since Venizelos in the 1920s occurred under G. Papandreou sr in the 1960s but even that was snuffed out by the fascist junta that ruled until 1974.

          Greece only became a full fledged democracy and market economy in 1981, and that's when Andreas Papandreou started Greece's civil service and social programs (pensions, mainly). Until then, there was nothing. It was an oligarch's paradise. This was finally a sop for the left, but the fact is, the number of civil servants in Greece (700k for 11 million population) is smaller than not only all other eurozone countries, but the ratio is smaller than the USAs. All the pensions, benefits, salaries etc. paid out to these workers (who, admittedly, are woefully inefficient due to their patronage hiring) could not ever amount to the debt Greece has racked up.

          Greece is a clientilist, crony capitalist, vertically integrated economy run by oligarchs who began in shipping, but spread to banking and media. All owned by the same people. They own the politicians too. Worse, they rule over distribution networks for goods--pay to play. In other words, Greece's economy is fascistic, and only tourism and the black market allows for any breathing space for common people. The rest have to go through channels.

          It is absolutely no surprise to me that fascists are once again popular in Greece. They got quite a few votes in a village where entire families were exterminated by fascists within living memory.

          There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

          by upstate NY on Tue Sep 11, 2012 at 08:30:02 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Immigration in Europe (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    G2geek, Cliss

    I am very liberal, but am a knuckledragger on immigration issues.  If someone wanted to spark a revolt by European indigenes and force them to the right, one could do no better than to bring in millions of third-world immigrants.

    Everyone has a right to their own culture and country.  Politicians have no right to bring in millions of strangers, forcing their own taxpayers to support the effort to transform the land of their ancestors.

    The US is a special case, since we are a nation of immigrants.  

    I'm with Hungary on the GMO crop ban, too.  Good for them.

    •  immigrants come for jobs (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      nchristine, gjohnsit, lotlizard, jfromga

      don't want immigrants in your country? don't hire them. simple.

      i have no problem with a country wanting to keep its identity or having expectations of those wanting to become ciitzens.

      but when the rich import workers for low wages and then cry about it, i am sorry, but the immigrants win that one.

      well, except of course the immigrants don't win. they simply look like the problem. they aren't. never were. well, until they get pissy ...

      the problems: poverty, lack of education, and the powerful ... the real knuckle draggers in fact. adhering til the last breath that might is right and the ends justify any means.

    •  Canada is accepting the fleeing Gypsies. (0+ / 0-)

      Lots of them.

      A Catholic, Jew, Muslim and Buddhist walk into Al Aqsa Mosque. Buddhist immediately exclaims: "excuse me I appear to be in the wrong joke."

      by Salo on Tue Sep 11, 2012 at 07:48:05 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  tipped for counterpoint. (4+ / 0-)

      And I agree though a bit differently:

      The plutocrats love mass waves of immigrants whose rights they can deny (e.g. undocumented immigrants), because these immigrants become quasi-slave labor who can be exploited mercilessly, and used to drive down prevailing wages.

      We on the left like to sympathize with the oppressed, but in doing so, we play into the plutocrats' hands on this issue.

      Somehow we need to find a new policy option, that will reduce the sheer quantity of people coming in, and focus on improving the quality of their lives: their rights vis a vis the law, and vis a vis their employers.  

      Things have to get better before they can get really better.

      "Minus two votes for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

      by G2geek on Tue Sep 11, 2012 at 07:48:53 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Money flows from "guest workers" to home countries (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        G2geek

        But home-country dependency on remittances from emigrants often just shores up undemocratic conditions and cements social and economic dysfunction.

        Why isn't the U.S. encouraging people to stay home and fight to reform their home countries, instead of luring away their most motivated and talented people through brain drain? It's a question some on the Right use as a cover story for racist psychology. But it's still a valid question.

        The Dutch kids' chorus Kinderen voor Kinderen wishes all the world's children freedom from hunger, ignorance, and war.

        by lotlizard on Tue Sep 11, 2012 at 09:48:40 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  notice how the strategy played out with Mexico: (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          lotlizard, gjohnsit

          First came the "maquiladoras" on the border: low wage factories that siphoned jobs out of the US into Mexico, and encouraged internal migration within Mexico, northward toward the US border.

          Then the maquiladoras were shut down and those jobs shifted to China.  

          The Mexican workers who had already been displaced from their original home turf were now unemployed and right next to the US border.  

          Logically, many of them went north.  

          What we see time and time again, are masses of workers being herded hither & yon like so many head of cattle ("human husbandry")

          In order for the working masses of the world to organize, they need first of all to communicate effectively with each other across borders.  

          For that to happen, will require a new type of internet utility or social networking forum, that enables them to communicate across languages: in essence, you choose your home language, and the system translates everyone else's language into yours.   This could be started as an innocuous social thing: like an international Facebook without the surveillance.  

          Once workers across the world start sharing stories about their everyday lives, they will start to look up from where they're being herded, and start organizing.  

          "Minus two votes for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

          by G2geek on Tue Sep 11, 2012 at 11:04:21 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Immigrants = scapegoats (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      wu ming, jfromga, OMwordTHRUdaFOG

      The hatred of immigrants makes absolutely no sense at all. How can the most political feeble and economically marginalized people be the ones screwing up an economy, while the governing elites, who make all the important decisions, get a free pass?

        If you want to know who is responsible, you start at board of directors, not the janitors.

      ¡Cállate o despertarás la izquierda! - protest sign in Spain

      by gjohnsit on Tue Sep 11, 2012 at 08:41:55 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  since you are a self described (0+ / 0-)

      knuckledragger, you could just walk upright instead.

      People have a right to self determination.  If an elected government allows immigration to occur, the voters should either be in accordance or change the government.  While that is easier said than done,  that is what elections are about.

      The world is open to a competition of ideas.  Cultures grow, change, die, as ideas and people move. To deny immigration is to deny migration, a very basic part of human history.  Any system that is determined to ignore the basics of human nature is doomed to failure.  As humans now walk upright, we should recognize knuckledragging is not  a human trait.

  •  Nazis Were Strident Christians 1922-1934 (4+ / 0-)

    It was an alliance with Christians that let Hitler pass the Enabling Act of 1933, followed by the notorious Condordance with Rome.

    See my diaries of the last 5 years.

    There’s always free cheddar in a mousetrap, baby

    by bernardpliers on Tue Sep 11, 2012 at 07:26:10 AM PDT

  •  Well (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    G2geek, gjohnsit

    There is nothing new here. Greece is not strange to radical political positions (Greece was the only country in Europe that had until very recently 70's style left and anarchist and right wing terrorist groups). When people are going through a political an economic ordeal that's what you get radicalism and the perfect breeding ground for fascism.

    •  The only publicized country. (0+ / 0-)

      In Germany you had right wing terrorist groups protected y the police and interior ministers. And this is yet to come out totally. But the number of those killed by the German group is higher than that killed by November 17 in Greece.

      There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

      by upstate NY on Tue Sep 11, 2012 at 08:37:52 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  There isn't much they can do (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    gjohnsit

    They can ban immigration from outside the EU all they want. They can't do anything about EU immigration because of EU laws.

    Example: I'm a US citizen, my husband is British. When we applied for my UK spouse visa, we had to pay about $800 for the application and we had to provide all sorts of evidence that we could support ourselves without having to rely on benefits. This was in 2009. They have gotten even stricter since then. On the other hand, an EU citizen living in the UK (for example, a French citizen) can bring their non-EU spouse to live here without paying any fee and without having to provide anything other than a marriage certificate.

    Here in the UK, a lot of the animosity is directed at white Polish and Eastern Europeans. And of course, the UK government can't do a thing about them.

    Even here I hear loads of anti-immigrant sentiment. But people are usually like "oh, I don't mean you." Of course.

    •  Unless (0+ / 0-)

      they want to leave the EU, of course.

    •  It really bugs me that the UK... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      dianamherrera

      ...gives yanks a tough time with visa stuff. Any Brit should be able to marry a foreigner (especially Americans) and bring the spouse in. It's a basic human right.

      Sadly the anti immigration hysteria has been twisted into the knots that you describe. Americans are English speakers for example. You share our legal and political history up until 1776...you are not particularly foreign. But ironically end up being excluded by lawmakers.

      A Catholic, Jew, Muslim and Buddhist walk into Al Aqsa Mosque. Buddhist immediately exclaims: "excuse me I appear to be in the wrong joke."

      by Salo on Tue Sep 11, 2012 at 07:53:19 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I think some of it (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Salo

        is a misunderstanding about how immigration actually works. A lot of people I've talked to here were shocked that I even had to apply to come live here. I mean, they honestly were under the impression that as soon as I married a British man I just got handed a UK passport and benefits.

        I agree, though. Now they've made it so you can't sponsor a non-EU spouse unless you earn £18,600. That's going to make it impossible for a lot of folks. As my husband was a student at the time, we wouldn't have qualified for the visa 3 years ago under these new rules, but we've managed to survive just fine without benefits. We don't exactly get a choice who we fall in love with.

        •  Yup (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          dianamherrera

          I'm very suspicious of these laws and who is behind them.  There's an Alberich the dwarf someplace cackling at the mayhem. They were put in place to simmer down the BNP but they are likely to backfire as many middle class Brits find they can't bring the American over to live. While Italians, French, Spanish etc etc come and go as they please.  Despite the public rhetoric British people do actually see Americans as relatives.  So as the impact of this law hurts more legit couples the law will have to change. So how/why the government did this is a mystery.  I think a passport if not residency is a human right.  many Americans would have ancestors who lived in the British Isles for thousands of years too.

          A Catholic, Jew, Muslim and Buddhist walk into Al Aqsa Mosque. Buddhist immediately exclaims: "excuse me I appear to be in the wrong joke."

          by Salo on Tue Sep 11, 2012 at 08:27:09 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  My guess is (0+ / 0-)

            a court will get rid of the rule, just like they eventually got rid of the rule about both the UK spouse and the non-EU spouse having to be 21 or over. But I have a feeling the government waste our time and money doing this stuff knowing perfectly well a court will strike it down, because then afterward they can at least say "see, we tried. it's all the stupid court's fault."

  •  Everybody thinks they're different. Funny thing (4+ / 0-)

    that cuz we aren't.  Read Aristotle.  Same damn thing.

    "The Global War on Terror is a justification for U.S. Imperialism. It must be stopped."

    by BigAlinWashSt on Tue Sep 11, 2012 at 07:36:17 AM PDT

  •  In times of severe economic dislocation (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    nchristine, Woody, gjohnsit

    people are drawn to the political extremes of the left and right. (Communists vs fascists in the 1930s.) Fascism tends to prevail because fascists are more physically aggressive and tend to have support in the military and police forces.
       The European policy makers are taking an extremely serious risk by stressing the national economies so much.
    They don't seem to grasp that they can be overthrown by natisonalist mass movements.

  •  Whats scary is to think of it like this (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    nchristine, gjohnsit, Subterranean

    Instead of something like the Treaty of Versailles which created impositions on Germany that in reality helped fascism rise we now have International Banks essentially imposing the same things on various nations across Europe.

    We are our own worst enemy sometimes

    --Enlighten the people, generally, and tyranny and oppressions of body and mind will vanish like spirits at the dawn of day. - Thomas Jefferson--

    by idbecrazyif on Tue Sep 11, 2012 at 07:45:29 AM PDT

    •  You should read Michael Hudson (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      idbecrazyif, jlynne, OMwordTHRUdaFOG

      The real reason for the impositions on Germany was because the allies in Europe were in debt to Wall Street.
         All of the allies, every single one of them, defaulted on their WWI debts before the rise of Nazi Germany.

        It was those Wall Street debts that crushed global trade in the inter-war years, and was more responsible for the Great Depression than anything else.

      ¡Cállate o despertarás la izquierda! - protest sign in Spain

      by gjohnsit on Tue Sep 11, 2012 at 08:47:37 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Very true, I had forgotten that small detail (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        gjohnsit

        I've read The Bubble and Beyond, just haven't had the time to get to the others.

        New babies tend to eat your time lol

        --Enlighten the people, generally, and tyranny and oppressions of body and mind will vanish like spirits at the dawn of day. - Thomas Jefferson--

        by idbecrazyif on Tue Sep 11, 2012 at 08:50:18 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Self-inflicted economic problems (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      nchristine, wu ming, gjohnsit, idbecrazyif

      Angels fear to tread in these comments, and we could all get banned, so sure, let me rush in.

      Germany first suffered the terrible hyperinflation after the end of World War I. Ten years or so later it was the European country to suffer most from the Depression.

      The Chancellor setting economic policy during, how to put it, not the years before we-dare-not-say-the name, rather, let's say, during the Depression and in the last years of the Weimer Republic, was Heinrich Brüning.

      Wikipedia descibes Brüning's austerian policies ...

      In line with conservative economic theory that less government spending would spur economic growth, Heinrich Brüning drastically cut state expenditures, including in the social sector.
      So a failed economic policy in Germany led to a thriving extremist party.

      -------------------

      Oh, and after the extremist party seized power, it launched an economic policy similar to that prescribed by English economist John Maynard Keynes, crudely put: Spend your way out of a depression. Government spending started to grow. Construction began on many infrastructure projects such as the Autobahns, dams, canals. Armament spending soared. More jobs were created by making a bigger army and navy. And so forth.

      Wonder why Brüning's successor was so popular with the Volk in Der Vaterland, despite his being such a piece of Scheiße ? -- he got them jobs!

      Sorry if I'm getting ahead of the story here.

  •  rise of fascism in the western world (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    nchristine, gjohnsit, lotlizard

    and spear headed by CEOs, bankers, and brokers. imo.

  •  When mass emotion runs high enough, (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    nchristine, gjohnsit

    every-day people are dupes and easy to manipulate. It's troubling to read about fascist movements adopting some tropes of progressive popular movements, e.g., resistance to austerity and to gmo.

    It's here they got the range/ and the machinery for change/ and it's here they got the spiritual thirst. --Leonard Cohen

    by karmsy on Tue Sep 11, 2012 at 07:52:07 AM PDT

  •  we don't learn. that's why it happens, over and (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    gjohnsit

    over, and over again.

    The human race...is very tribal...

    For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. ~ The Bible says that. Ask Willard aka 'I love America sooo much' Romney

    by yawnimawke on Tue Sep 11, 2012 at 08:46:50 AM PDT

  •  Tips for properly identifying fascism where it (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    gjohnsit

    really exists, and not as a political gimmick.

    Interesting, disturbing, and unsurprising piece.

  •  On the "trains" thing... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    gjohnsit

    I'm pretty sure that the whole "they made the trains run on time" was an English reaction to Mussolini's taking over.

    It should be noted that the reason the trains didn't run on time in the first place was because Mussolini's followers were disrupting them. They 'fixed' a problem they created.

    It should also be noted that Fascism is distinct from Nazism. They were/are similar, but different.

    The world is full of Kings and Queens who'll blind your eyes and steal your dreams. - RJD(RIP)

    by Darkvisitor on Tue Sep 11, 2012 at 10:00:42 AM PDT

  •  Let's also not forget the massive right-wing (0+ / 0-)

    backlash right here at home  in 2010 resulting from the economic insecurities. If President Obama had shown that he is going after the Wall Street criminals, it would have been not so severe. Because people were still blaming Bush and Wall STreet more for the bad economy as the exit polls showed. And remember all the attacks on women's repro rights, "show me your papers" laws, attacks on the poor etc.

    "The word bipartisan means some larger-than-usual deception is being carried out”. - George Carlin

    by Funkygal on Tue Sep 11, 2012 at 01:11:16 PM PDT

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