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OK, we know Romney is an idiot. I support the way Hillary and Obama expressed their feelings today. Instead of adding another redundant diary, I just made my views known by posting comments.

But here is something I feel is good discussion from a progressive point of view. What is the kind of response we should have towards Libya and Egypt?

There are new protests in Cairo outside the US Embassy. We have seen reports of people holding signs of sympathy for the killed people in Libya. It is not easy to figure out what the breakdown of Libyan and Egyptian  people numbers by opinion held on the attacks.

How strong should the US seek out justice for these incidents?

For starters, the Libyan government seems to have a stake in not pissing us off. THey seemed to have had the right reaction of sympathy to our dead and anger at what happened in their house. As they should. The US is sending some small amount of military help over there.  Hillary Clinton has made it clear no amount of hate speech is a valid reason for those attacks. A good start.

The reaction from Egypt is still not clear. Their head of state lived in the US and one would hope that guy's family members, some of who are Americans, will shame him into showing more anger to what happened on their soil. THey are the hosts of our embassy. Egypt should do whatever it takes. Instead their leader Mohamed Morsy says this:

"The presidency condemns in the strongest terms the attempt of a group to insult the place of the Messenger, the Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) and condemns the people who have produced this radical work," the president said in a statement posted on his Facebook page. "The Egyptian people, both Muslims and Christians, refuse such insults on sanctities."
The statement noted that "the Egyptian government is responsible to protect private and public properties and diplomatic missions in addition to embassy headquarters of various countries" and that "it respects and protects the right of expression and the right to protest peacefully under the law and will firmly oppose any irresponsible attempt to veer off the law."
Seriously? This guy lived in and prospered from American free speech during his stay in America. Now , he doesn't use any of those values back in Egypt.

 When Van Gogh was murdered, sadly, the reaction to his murder did not generate enough outrage in the muslim community, even if admittedly, most of them wouldn't dream of doing something so heinous. Are Egyptians more concerned about the fallout due to this because of economic reasons, or do they actually care that people can get hurt because of these kind of attacks? When are they going to understand that people have free speech to insult and the best way to counter it is to use your own free speech to expose the guy and if there are any deliberate falsehoods in facts then, they can sue for slander or whatever. There have been anti semitic videos made in the middle east. How would these people feel if we supported Israel in attacking arabic embassies just because some muslim lunatic independently made a despicable video without the permission of his government the same way Bacile made this video ridiculing Prophet Muhammed.

Luckily no lives were taken in Egypt. Otherwise, it would have been a hairy situation in making sure Egypt doesn't drop the ball in taking this seriously.

In another gem, this idiot's concern seems to be about suing the nutball filmmaker instead of trying his best to assure the security of foreign embassies on his soil.

Egyptian President Mohamed Mursi asked the Egyptian embassy in Washington to take legal action in the United States against makers of a film attacking the Muslim Prophet Mohammad, the official state news agency said on Wednesday.
Weigh in. I don't have any answers. Just wanted to start a discussion. I am tired of these lunatics getting so riled up over some lunatic's book or movie defaming Islam  to the point of attacking innocent americans when they have muslims who do the same thing in their media. We are not going to start burning the Iranian embassy or egyptian embassy because some idiot made a bigoted movie in one of those countries.
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Comment Preferences

  •  Egypt is the example of a revolution unrealized (7+ / 0-)

    The People's Revolution was temporarily stymied when the military elite seemed to give in to demands for trials for the corrupt and a more democratic transparent government.

    In truth most of the reforms were cosmetic, so the corrupt went uncorrupted and the graft continued unabated.  Under the surface there have been continuous demonstrations against the military for locking up dissidents and jailing them without trials.  Torture continued as a method of control.

    To make a long story short, the Arab Spring is not over; we are seeing a society in transition.  To make a historical comparison, the current situation is roughly what we saw after the czar was ousted in pre-Revolutionary Russia and the moderates apparently took control.  However, they were unable to placate the radicals and they were also unable to correct the abuses of the Czarist system.  They were doomed to failure, as such a Herculean task would take extraordinary men which they were not.

    The failure of the military to truly clean their Augean stables of corruption and graft and to punish the guilty did not placate the street.  Furthermore, their crackdown on dissidents only served to radicalize many and create a fertile ground for the real extremists.  My guess is that the military will continue on their current course until there is either an open Libyan style civil war or the rank and file military mutiny and join the dissidents, purging the officer corps.

    In either case, it appears Egypt will descend farther in chaos than it already has  

    •  This diary takes a cheap shot at Morsy (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mint julep, corvo, JDsg

      the Morsy response to the killing of the American ambassador was completely appropriate.

      entlord, you do a good review of the problems in Egypt. However, I think that the violent overthrow of a dictator that was supported for 40 years by the US was a dramatic and good change for the people. A new democratic leader was elected and he has done a very good job in handling the problems with the military generals that are a carry over from the dark days.

      Chaos is completely normal in that kind of situation. But, to this point the new Morsy leadership has done excellent work in managing the many factions in Egypt who all expect to profit from the revolution.

      War is costly. Peace is priceless!

      by frostbite on Wed Sep 12, 2012 at 06:17:49 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I agree with you to a degree (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        pravin, mickT

        however, revolutions have a way of creating their own momentum, as seen in the French, Russian and Chinese Revolutions among others.  While the moderates may ride the tiger for a while, without radical changes, they are doomed to fail.  The failure with the current government is that is has not stopped the abuse of dissidents nor have they purged the military.  Once there is meaningful reform of the judicial system and a meaningful purge of the generals who profited from the old regime, I cannot be sanguine about the future of the current state of governance

        •  Forsy needs to follow existing constitutional (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          corvo

          law. He has been hampered by the supreme court, however, he was able to get rid of the top general and have him replace with a more cooperative one.

          Doing purges is not a very democratic solution.

          War is costly. Peace is priceless!

          by frostbite on Wed Sep 12, 2012 at 07:03:45 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  So, you are the useful tool for the O Reilly types (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        mickT

        They take selective comments like yours from these blogs and then show it as liberals being apologetic for foreign interests but harsher on our own. I am not saying you are. But I just find it curious that there have been many Romney bashing diaries for comments that are just tone deaf as the ones made by this Egyptian guy, and without a doubt, some of the diaries have to be harsher on him thanI have been on this Egyptian guy, yet you choose my diary to say I am taking a cheap shot?

        By the way, I had no problem bashing Romney for his distortions and tone deafness. And I have no problem bashing this guy Morsi for not doing much to calm the situation down, and for not explaining to his people that this is the work of some lunatic the US Government cannot control and that for the safety of his own people, he would have to make sure he ensures the safety of foreign embassies on their land.

        We are not talking about the guy's record. We are talking about his response to this incident. And it is found wanting. We are lucky no one died in Egypt. No thanks to him.

        •  asdf (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          frostbite
          So, you are the useful tool for the O Reilly types(1+ / 0-)

          They take selective comments like yours from these blogs and then show it as liberals being apologetic for foreign interests but harsher on our own. I am not saying you are.

          But you did.  In the subject line to your comment.
          •  I did not use it to generalize Dkos (0+ / 0-)

            I used to it question him. Not 100% sure if he is really sympathetic to Morsi. But it seems weird that he feels defensive enough of some islamic foreign leader to come to his defense by saying I am taking a cheapshot, yet he never felt obligated to say anything on behalf of ROmney who has taken a lot more abuse on this site.

            What O Reilly will do is take his comment and then use that as evidence most people on Dkos feel this way when it is not true. I am just using it to question him alone, not the entire Dkos community.

            •  perhaps (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              frostbite
              I used to it question him. Not 100% sure if he is really sympathetic to Morsi. But it seems weird that he feels defensive enough of some islamic foreign leader to come to his defense by saying I am taking a cheapshot, yet he never felt obligated to say anything on behalf of ROmney who has taken a lot more abuse on this site.
              you're answering your own question.  In a world where everyone agrees that water is wet, it's not surprising when not everyone talks about that fact.

              I think we have better things to do with our lives than live in fear of Bill O'Reilly.

              •  Well one reason is I disagree wit this guy (0+ / 0-)

                My O Reilly reference was that he takes comments like his and then extrapolates it to stereotype the whole community. But I do disagree with this guy's individual comment.

  •  not good. But not unsurprising. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    joe from Lowell

    I was hoping for a stronger condemnation from Morsi--this shows he is playing to the Salafist groups, etc....

    Perhaps a good political move for him within the fray of Egyptian politics--but not at all what I want to see from the global perspective.

  •  Egypt is its own country, it isn't required to (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    greendem, corvo, frostbite, mint julep, JDsg

    deffer to the United States, or put the concerns of the United States over it's own nation.

    Egypt has undergone enormous turmoil over the past few years, and it appears to me that their President was simply trying to diffuse any potential problems by saying his country will not tolerate slights to the sanctity of religion, be it Muslim, or Christian.

    Don't really see how that was insulting in the least, seemed a well thought out statement catering to his country... and he is the leader of HIS country, the concerns of his nation are obviously going to take precedence over any other nation's.

    Wouldn't you expect our nation's leaders to put our nation's concerns first in a similar situation?  

    "It is through disobedience that progress has been made, through disobedience and through rebellion." Oscar Wilde, 1891

    by MichiganGirl on Wed Sep 12, 2012 at 05:01:25 PM PDT

    •  THis is what he could have done (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      sandbox, this just in, mickT, stephdray

      He could have explained to his masses that he deplores the anti islamic movie just as much as they did. BUt he has to explain to them how easy it is to make such movies and that is part of free speech. He could tell his masses how would they feel if their embassies were raided because some muslim made an anti-jewish movie. Or he could have played it safe and just said that all kinds of movies are made in the west and even some anti christian ones are made and none of them are authorized by the government.  So their anger is on the wrong target.

      Egypt is it's own country.. Yes. And under their watch, one of their guests safety has been violated. That is HIS RESPONSIBILITY TO MAKE GUESTS FEEL SAFE IN HIS HOME.

    •  And the US isn't required to treat him as a friend (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      sandbox

      Libya and Egypt.

      I guess we know who are friends are now.

      We need to show Morsi the respect due to a democratically-legitimate head of state, but that's it.

      Art is the handmaid of human good.

      by joe from Lowell on Wed Sep 12, 2012 at 05:45:52 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Actually.... (9+ / 0-)

    that's a pretty moderate response considering who is in power in Egypt at the moment.   The government voted in and appointed is pretty strongly muslim.

    They condemned the movie first.  

    They condemned violations of the rule of law second.

    They affirmed the right to assemble and free speech third.

    But they did actually do the second two.  That's actually fairly new.   If you take it all at face value, Egypt's government is saying:

    1.  We are unhappy about the American movie
    2.  We support the right of Egypt's citizens to protest it in public
    3.  We do not support violating the law during the protest (this would be the "storming the embassy" part)

    You can quibble over the emphasis, but we're not their culture, and we don't have as many wingnuts on a percentage basis that turn an insult into armed violence (we do have some).  The heart of the message is actually what we want them to be saying.  We WANT Egypt to respect freedom to protest, AND to respect rule of law, after all.

    Libya is responding more affirmatively,  but they owe the USA a lot more, Americans are a lot more popular there at the moment, the person killed was VERY popular and the focus is on treating the killers as criminals.  Good for them.

    •  that is a good point that i overlooked in my (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Mindful Nature

      comment--

      Morsi is responsible for Egypt, not Libya--so he does have license for a more muted comment... but there absolutely should have been stronger condemnation of the attack on the embassy in Cairo.

    •  His regret over the embassy incident is like Romne (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      sandbox

      It's all about emphasis. There was nothing in the tone of that statement that would placate the masses anger about the movie. it was more of a "hey it;s not good for our business" type attitude. Its just as fake as Romney using the incident to attack Obama. Sure, Romney expressed regret over the killings too.

      This is worse. Morsi is responsible for anything on his soil. He needs to express stronger condemnation.

      •  I don't give a crap about the tone (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        corvo, mint julep, frostbite

        The words are actually quite amazing coming out of a government that Egypt actually has.

        Freedom of speech
        Rule of Law

        Remember, all that happened in Egypt was a protest and some property violations (trespass, removing American flag, replacing with AQ flag).

        Nobody was hurt, nobody killed.  I think some protesters were tear gassed earlier, but that's about it.  I've even heard that some of them were arrested.

        What's happening in Libya isn't Morsi's problem, any more than it is Tunesia's problem.

        He addressed what happened in his own country.

        I don't especially care that much about motives.   If a government lets its people protest, arrests the ones that get out of hand.....what's the problem?

        He said to his own people "You can protest in a lawful manner but if you  break the law we'll arrest you."

        That seems to draw the line brightly enough.

      •  it is? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        frostbite, corvo

        I am curious.  How do you know this?

        Its just as fake as Romney using the incident to attack Obama.
        I see no basis to think it's anything than what it is at face value.  Unless you assume your conclusions (that Morsi is a bad actor), I don't see anything that points to this

        Courtesy Kos. Trying to call on the better angels of our nature.

        by Mindful Nature on Wed Sep 12, 2012 at 06:03:04 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  That's like repubs defending romney (0+ / 0-)

          Can you really tell what's in Romney's mind by those high stzandards you set?

          •  It is like (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            frostbite, corvo

            Any fair minded empiricist defending anybody.   If you start with the belief that someone is a bad person, then use your belief to interpret their actions and then use your interpretation as evidence that they are bad (which is the attitude that you started with) then you've got a nicely circular bit of reasoning to bolster your initial prejudice.  It is a very common fallacy to support such biases.  This, I tend to point it out when I see it (indeed, I took a kossack to task earlier to day for an over the top attack.). It is also the same tactic used by Linbaugh and other disreputable types

            Courtesy Kos. Trying to call on the better angels of our nature.

            by Mindful Nature on Wed Sep 12, 2012 at 06:16:07 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Morsi's a 911 truther. (0+ / 0-)
    •  Number 3 is a stretch. At the very least he should (0+ / 0-)

      have made a statement that in the future they will do better in protecting these embassies.

      "I smoke. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your fuckin' mouth." --- Bill Hicks

      by voroki on Wed Sep 12, 2012 at 05:59:07 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  No, #3 is very clear (0+ / 0-)

        here is the text.  Second part of the sentence, in context:

         "it respects and protects the right of expression and the right to protest peacefully under the law and will firmly oppose any irresponsible attempt to veer off the law."

  •  I'll wait to hear how he responds (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ericlewis0, joe from Lowell

    to news of the Libyan attack before drawing conclusions, but his attitude isn't surprising - the guy's base are religious conservatives, and the stability of the Egyptian government is tenuous.

    Everything there is to know about the GOP: They're the Bad Guys.

    by Troubadour on Wed Sep 12, 2012 at 05:03:41 PM PDT

  •  Not sure I have the same take as you and CNN (7+ / 0-)

    Free speech goes both ways.    

    The Egyptian PM is welcome to his views about the film.  The protestors have every right to peaceful protest even if we think that their issue is insane.  Some Egyptians crossed the line and have been arrested.    The PM said that Egypt is committed to protecting U.S. embassies.   I do not see the full transcript of the interview (if one exists) so I do not know if he mentioned the attacks in Libya.

    We are not going to start burning the Iranian embassy or egyptian embassy because some idiot made a bigoted movie in one of those countries. .
    But we will burn Mosques.

    Let's not get into "us vs them."   Human beings have a propensity for violence and idiocy.   That is true for Muslims, Christans, and athiests.    

    CNN has an interest in promoting war with Iran and destabilizing Egypt.   They are for all war, all the time; it is quite profitable and gives Anderson Cooper something to talk about.

    •  And guess what. they will be prosecuted here. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      voroki

      I am on board that there is bigotry in the US. But this is not about bigotry alone. it is an wild barbaric reaction still in that parts of the world to any speech that offends them. That instinct is there among our folks too(hell, even my parents homeland of India has that with Hindu and Muslim fundamentalists) and over here we have our own white extremists. I have read about Hindu extremists go batshit crazy over verbal insults but would be meek as hell when they were physically attacked by terrorists. That part of the world is going to learn how to deal with the age of internet and that all kinds of offensive stuff will crop up.

      THe difference is that we have a president who will condemn the attacks to  a better degree. Even Bush did a bettter job criticizing attacks on muslims than what Morsi is doing.,

  •  Affirmation of the right to peacefully protest (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    corvo, frostbite

    "respects and protects the right of expression and the right to protest peacefully under the law and will firmly oppose any irresponsible attempt to veer off the law"

    That is almost word-for-word what the police say in the USA about demonstrations.

    I'm actually impressed.

    "Work for something because it is good, not just because it stands a chance to succeed." -- Vaclav Havel

    by greendem on Wed Sep 12, 2012 at 05:10:24 PM PDT

  •  Morsi has a very different constituency and vision (7+ / 0-)

    He is an islamist, albeit a moderate one, and as I'm sure you are aware, this is a strain of political thought that takes blasphemy very seriously in a region where such values are standard.  Obviously, Morsi's not going to respond the same way as an American politician would.

    So, what I see is a statement (as quoted) in which he both condemns the film makers (which I would also condemn strongly, albeit somewhat different reasons.  I think our grounds overlap in that Morsi and I both see producing disrespectful, racist and inflammatory films as bad for different reasons) and also condemns ("firmly opposes") the actions that caused damage at the U.S. Embassy.  Notice that Morsi supports peaceful protest, but strongly opposes "attempt to veer off the law," which i read to mean violence and damage to life and property.

    I see in Morsi a President who can walk and chew gum at the same time.  Yes, he comes at this from a very different political philosophy, but I don't see it as inadequate.  Yes, he spent time in the US, but he's not American.  I lived for a time in Saudi Arabia, but I wouldn't respond like a Saudi would.  

    It's about what I would expect, frankly.

    Courtesy Kos. Trying to call on the better angels of our nature.

    by Mindful Nature on Wed Sep 12, 2012 at 05:18:33 PM PDT

    •  So he opposes "veering off the law". What leader (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      pravin

      whether its a democratically elected leader or dictator doesn't oppose that? The question is what will he do to insure it doesn't happen in the future.

      "I smoke. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your fuckin' mouth." --- Bill Hicks

      by voroki on Wed Sep 12, 2012 at 06:02:15 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I notice (0+ / 0-)

        That Obama didn't say a lot more about the Cairo riots.  In fact in his comments this morning he did not mention them at all. What a leader!

        Courtesy Kos. Trying to call on the better angels of our nature.

        by Mindful Nature on Wed Sep 12, 2012 at 06:28:54 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  If there had been a riot of americans at the (0+ / 0-)

          egyptian embassy in the u.s. what do you think he would have said?

          "I smoke. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your fuckin' mouth." --- Bill Hicks

          by voroki on Wed Sep 12, 2012 at 06:31:03 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  That (0+ / 0-)

            He expects the law to be enforced and condemning those actions, much as Morsi did

            Courtesy Kos. Trying to call on the better angels of our nature.

            by Mindful Nature on Wed Sep 12, 2012 at 06:48:35 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Do you think he would have gone on to say that the (0+ / 0-)

              the u.s. would do everything they could to prosecute the individuals that did it? Do you also think that he would say that the egyptians involved in whatever it was that sparked the protests should be prosecuted (even though the actions of the egyptians who sparked it was completely legal in egypt)

              "I smoke. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your fuckin' mouth." --- Bill Hicks

              by voroki on Wed Sep 12, 2012 at 06:53:03 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  No one said he cant do both (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      voroki

      But as someone who lived in America, he can use his personal experience to explain to the masses that disgust over a movie should not be taken to the level where it becomes disgust over the american government because there is nothing the american government can do to stop such a movie. He could have , in his own words, explain the facts of how such movies get made better. How would he feel if his American children got killed in an attack by islamic radicals?

      •  Not just that, but isn't it funny that he expects (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        pravin, sandbox

        the makers of this movie to be prosecuted while he mentions nothing about the prosecution of those who attacked the embassy

        "I smoke. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your fuckin' mouth." --- Bill Hicks

        by voroki on Wed Sep 12, 2012 at 06:13:44 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  There should be more pressure on Morsi (0+ / 0-)

    Note that the Obama administration has praised the libyans for their cooperation, but Obama has pointed said that the egyptian regime is not considered an ally, and that the relationship is a work in progress.

    If Morsi fancies his $1.X billion per year aid and the $1 billion loan forgiveness, he needs to play ball.

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