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Cross posted at our new beta site Voices on the Square and the Stars Hollows Gazette.
No, unless you somehow think RW DLC and third way Democrats forever have the right to dictate their failed policies and complicity in the Great Divergence. No. Real Democrats, if any exist anymore, don’t believe in austerity or the coming GRAND SELLOUT in Congress after the President likely wins reelection. We warned it was coming as soon as the Bush Tax Cut Sellout was passed by Democrats. It was easy to see, but none are as blind as those that refused to see. You know who you are.

It would be different of course if partisans didn’t let Democrats enable Republican lies and ignorance about deficits and national accounting, but they do as Bill Clinton did in his speech at the DNC sticking the part about Simpson Bowles at the end. Deficits are only dangerous political tools as long as Democratic voters are complicit in accepting the whole stupid debate about who rung up the debt. He was probably hoping you wouldn’t pay attention to that part, but maybe not. After all, he once told us how he really felt.

Former President Bill Clinton has quite the skewed view on interest rates (Interest rates went up as he was balancing the budget, not down) regarding deficits and his disastrous surpluses he brags about. As the great Stephanie Kelton, Associate Professor of Economics at the University of Missouri-Kansas City took note of, even mainstream "progressive" journalists are now admitting reality so why must we indulge these deficit fantasies or sit through another convention full of them?

We’re Not Broke and the Clinton Surpluses Destroyed the US Economy

Two of our nation’s most influential progressive journalists — Slate’s Matt Yglesias and Business Insider’s Joe Weisenthal —  just took on two powerful economic myths.

1. The Myth that The US Government is Out of Money

2. The Myth that A Government Surplus is  a Sign of Fiscal Responsibility

It’s hard to imagine a more empowering message.  As word spreads, elected officials in both parties will lose their primary excuse for inaction on on a whole range of neglected and underfunded programs.  “I’d love to help, but I’m all tapped out,” simply won’t sell.

There is no conceivable time in this new normal of high unemployment that there will ever be a need to balance the federal budget or tackle the debt because there would have to be full employment in order for deficit spending to drive prices up; that’s it. Anything else sputtered is absolute garbage and it hurts real people whose productive capacity and dignity is then wasted for a lie. Unless Democrats want to try to directly hire people via the employer of last resort (which they proudly don’t have the stomach for) then the long term unemployed might as well be garbage to them as they are to the Republicans.

After all, structural unemployment was another lie told by a number of speakers at the DNC. You see, just because the Republican convention was 100% BS, doesn’t mean Democrats can’t be honest with themselves about their own deficit lies at the DNC affecting the lives of Democratic voters now and in future elections as far as the eye can see. Pointing these painful political and economic realities out is essential so we can get a conversation going about the right things. Therefore, progressive Democratic critics are an essential part of the base and always have been whether some people like it or not, but it’s not our fault some proudly forgot their history.

The hard fought battles won that changed peoples lives via the New Deal banking reforms of 1933 were waged and won by those that swam upstream even against their own party apparatus, not the brain dead fish that went with the flow while bragging about how fast they were moving but didn't even know. So unlike those fakers, the gains from the past to the future belong to movers, shakers, and muckrakers.

Like the great Neo Chartalist Keynesian economist James K. Galbraith and populist Jim Hightower that hales from my state, the late great Molly Ivins once wrote eloquently about this dynamic; a major problem within the Democratic party that still exists is that they have all collectively lost their inner Eugene McCarthy. It’s time we remembered this lesson again like the separation of powers curbing the executive and actually representing Democratic constituents instead of enabling undemocratic gangs of six or eight and sellout backroom deals.

I will not support Hillary Clinton for president

Enough. Enough triangulation, calculation and equivocation. Enough clever straddling, enough not offending anyone This is not a Dick Morris election. Sen. Clinton is apparently incapable of taking a clear stand on the war in Iraq, and that alone is enough to disqualify her. Her failure to speak out on Terri Schiavo, not to mention that gross pandering on flag-burning, are just contemptible little dodges.

The recent death of Gene McCarthy reminded me of a lesson I spent a long, long time unlearning, so now I have to re-learn it. It's about political courage and heroes, and when a country is desperate for leadership. There are times when regular politics will not do, and this is one of those times. There are times a country is so tired of bull that only the truth can provide relief.

If no one in conventional-wisdom politics has the courage to speak up and say what needs to be said, then you go out and find some obscure junior senator from Minnesota with the guts to do it. In 1968, Gene McCarthy was the little boy who said out loud, "Look, the emperor isn't wearing any clothes." Bobby Kennedy -- rough, tough Bobby Kennedy -- didn't do it. Just this quiet man trained by Benedictines who liked to quote poetry.  

There was a lot of pressure to fall in line back in 1968 too before LBJ declined to run after Eugene McCarthy's strong showing in the Democratic primary in NH. You have to wonder what would have been had he not stepped up to run given the massive toll Vietnam was taking, specifically on the poor, who had no other options. It was a brave bold step Eugene took with lots of risk, and I'm sure many would say ill advised, even traitorous, as the hard hats were not fond of the antiwar movement back then. However, It was a risk worth taking even criticizing the Democratic President that passed the Great Society and the Civil Rights Acts. MLK took a similar even bolder step in his famous anti-Vietnam speech.

From that speech, we all need to remember even today that at a certain point silence becomes betrayal. In that sense, Eugene and MLK held the same POV when it came to the war in VIetnam. The general consensus back then, much like today, was that there was much to lose and not much to gain for going against the grain of the Democratic party apparatus; specifically if you were a part of it or gained favor from working with it. That made speaking out against it all the more courageous. Today that courage is gone.

We can hear the loss of our party's inner Eugene McCarthy through every quiver of every word spoken by every Democratic politician in defense of their President, Majority Leader, and House Speaker right or wrong; even the most progressive Congressman or Senator falls prey to this. It's as if they are not working for their constituents, but for the political party apparatus in D.C whatever that turns out to be; even if it's cutting Social Security. So basically those on the blogosphere telling Democratic critics of Democrats to STFU and GTFO of the party have a lot of studying to do, as usual.

 

Perhaps they don’t even know the history of the party they claim or why Bobby Kennedy picked up the anti-war message now forgotten and changed for the better (on his way to win the nomination and likely general election) before his tragic assassination? Perhaps they don’t remember know Hubert Humphrey took the safe route continually supporting the Vietnam War until it was too late. However, Republicans never took the House or Senate in 1968 or 1972 and you can partially thank Eugene for that as well as LBJ’s domestic achievements (which McGovern didn’t speak well enough of ignoring working class concerns in 72) despite his failings on foreign policy.

And despite Vietnam, Hubert Humphrey was a real Democrat who tried to get President Jimmy Carter to reject the neoliberal third way deficit fetishist destruction that won the 1980 election for Reagan early. This would start the Great Divergence in tandem with the sellout Democrats and Republicans that passed Taft Hartley from years earlier over Truman’s veto coming to fruition. Rick Perlstein(author of Nixonland) has a good account of this.

America’s Forgotten Liberal

For progressives today, however, the joke’s on us. In the 1970s the Democratic Party turned its focus from a New Deal-inspired politics of economic security toward a Watergate-inspired embrace of institutional reform. The move was explicitly anti-you-know-who: “We’re not a bunch of little Hubert Humphreys,” proclaimed Gary Hart, the leader of the “Watergate Babies” Democratic Congressional class of 1974.

Their reforms, however, largely failed in their intention to liberalize the nation. Conservatives and business interests were able to bend the new campaign finance rules and Congressional committee systems to their own ends. That, in turn, helped bring about what Paul Krugman calls the “Great Divergence”: the economic inequality that has made a mockery of ordinary Americans’ aspirations to join and stay in the middle class.The trends were already in evidence during the presidential season of 1976. The only thing missing was any organized Democratic response among the candidates — besides, that is, Hubert Humphrey, who was once more an also-ran for the Democratic nomination.

[……………….]

In 1976 he joined Representative Augustus Hawkins, a Democrat from the Watts section of Los Angeles, to introduce a bill requiring the government, especially the Federal Reserve, to keep unemployment below 3 percent — and if that failed, to provide emergency government jobs to the unemployed.

It sounds heretical now. But this newspaper endorsed it then, while 70 percent of Americans believed the government should offer jobs to everyone who wanted one. However, Jimmy Carter — a new kind of Democrat answering to a new upper-middle-class, suburban constituency, embarrassed by industrial unions and enamored with the alleged magic of the market — did not.

Smiley faceThese new kinds of Democrats allured with magical markets, structural unemployment lies, bond vigilantes, and confidence fairy tales have largely failed to live up to the New Deal and Great Society at a time when these platforms need to be expanded on and even better. You would think that would bother more people who call themselves Democrats. You would think the memories of FDR, LBJ, Truman, Eugene McCarthy, and Hubert Humphrey would elicit the same kind of knee jerk defenses as the guy who hired the men who ruined the world in his cabinet.

But sadly you would be wrong. These things matter whether we’re in an election or not. It doesn’t hurt any Democrats’ chances if they are discussed. In fact, it’s why candidates like Senator Sherrod Brown of Ohio are probably going to pull it out despite being against so much big money, because he has these discussions with his constituents that don't want more free trade agreements the President pushed at the DNC. They also want the banks broken up and support his reintroduced Safe Banking Act as they did in 2010 before the President worked to defeat it.

There’s really nothing besides an unenlightened herd mentality that states we all must dance to the beat of the same drum, even though that third way “New” Democratic sound is directly in tune with Republican free market fantasies that have led us all astray.

But today neoliberalism is still over if you want it.
 

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Comment Preferences

  •  Tips for a DNC speech that mentions the poor! (40+ / 2-)

    But that was a long long time ago in a party that's now far far astray.

    ‎A) "Bipartisan usually means that a larger-than-usual deception is being carried out." - George Carlin B) "The administration should be worried about the level of despair here." ~Markos Moulitsas at NN12

    by priceman on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 04:47:05 AM PDT

    •  i don't know if i agree with everything, but (12+ / 0-)

      this is the conversation we need to be having and the criticism of the Democratic party is spot on.

      No System of Justice Can Rise Above the Ethics of Those Who Administer It. (Wickersham Commission 1929)

      by No Exit on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 08:33:07 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Uh... Both Clinton AND Obama Mentioned the Poor (14+ / 0-)

      Is it possible you haven't seen a Democratic Convention Speech since 1984?

      Too Folk For You. - Schmidting in the Punch Bowl - verb - Committing an unexpected and underhanded political act intended to "spoil the party."

      by TooFolkGR on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 08:34:43 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  You're kidding me right? (4+ / 0-)

        There are no sacred cows.

        by LaEscapee on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 08:37:06 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

          •  Wow that "impressive" factless diary again (6+ / 0-)

            And I've proven I have been right but context and reading is not really your thing. Cuomo's speech hit this theme.

            Rich-Poor Gap Widens to Most Since 1967 as Income Falls

            Since it's not fawning over a politician it's probably not your thing, though. It wasn't really hit on either as a theme at the DNC or in this campaign.

            ‎A) "Bipartisan usually means that a larger-than-usual deception is being carried out." - George Carlin B) "The administration should be worried about the level of despair here." ~Markos Moulitsas at NN12

            by priceman on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 08:53:15 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Just Making Sure It's Linked Early (9+ / 0-)

              So any new Kossacks can appreciate your... pile of... information in the appropriate context.

              Too Folk For You. - Schmidting in the Punch Bowl - verb - Committing an unexpected and underhanded political act intended to "spoil the party."

              by TooFolkGR on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 08:54:33 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  This one has links and info to back it up (4+ / 0-)

                Again, not your thing; one who derails Medicare diaries and courageously refuses to read and boast about it.

                ‎A) "Bipartisan usually means that a larger-than-usual deception is being carried out." - George Carlin B) "The administration should be worried about the level of despair here." ~Markos Moulitsas at NN12

                by priceman on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 08:56:22 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Heads up (12+ / 0-)

                  I'm guessing that nobody reads your links besides your 6 or so true believers.  You and yours have written the same diary for years.  Speaking for myself; since there is nothing new to offer and we know your position, it saves time.  

                  Note to self, stop before I emulate the habits described in this diary.

                  by Rustbelt Dem on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 09:01:08 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I don't need anything from you (4+ / 0-)

                    yyeah, you are speaking for yourself and that's all I need to know.

                    ‎A) "Bipartisan usually means that a larger-than-usual deception is being carried out." - George Carlin B) "The administration should be worried about the level of despair here." ~Markos Moulitsas at NN12

                    by priceman on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 09:14:02 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  well, judging by primary victories (5+ / 0-)

                      I think I might be closer to the pulse of the party than you.

                      Nothing personal (that's a key difference here, there seems to be a lot of personalization from your side while I want results).

                      Note to self, stop before I emulate the habits described in this diary.

                      by Rustbelt Dem on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 09:33:05 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  I'm sure following me around trolling isn't... (3+ / 0-)

                        personal. Really, the Democratic Primary? You think you predicted that? lol. Whatevah.

                        ‎A) "Bipartisan usually means that a larger-than-usual deception is being carried out." - George Carlin B) "The administration should be worried about the level of despair here." ~Markos Moulitsas at NN12

                        by priceman on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 09:35:41 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Name one"progressive" primary victory (4+ / 0-)

                          I'll wait.

                          Note to self, stop before I emulate the habits described in this diary.

                          by Rustbelt Dem on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 09:37:03 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Huey Long (4+ / 0-)

                            http://en.wikipedia.org/...

                            Huey Long won in 1928 by tapping into the class resentment of rural Louisianans. He proposed government services far more expansive than anything in Louisiana history. Long won the Democratic Primary election on January 17, 1928, with less than a majority of the vote, 43.9 percent (126,842 votes), as his opponents split the anti-Long vote with Riley J. Wilson earning 28.3 percent (81,747) and Oramel H. Simpson garnering 27.8 percent (80,326). At the time, Long's margin was the largest in state history, and neither opponent chose to face him in a run-off election. He won the General Election on April 17, 1928, with 96.1 percent (92,941) of the vote.
                            But perhaps you are trying the end justifies the means stupifying BS on President. Nixon only won in 1968 because Robert Kennedy was shot and barely at that as had Humphrey criticized the Vietnam war earlier, he would have won. Truman won using a populist campaign in 1948. Your bizarre theories on primaries and facts in general are not something I care one iota about and I'm certainly not going to hold your hand and read facts to you because you don't have the intellectual curiosity to think about any of them(For instance I go through why Carter really lost and it had 0 to do with Ted Kennedy who would have won if he was better prepared to answer why he would run. You see, there is always the missing nuance).

                            ‎A) "Bipartisan usually means that a larger-than-usual deception is being carried out." - George Carlin B) "The administration should be worried about the level of despair here." ~Markos Moulitsas at NN12

                            by priceman on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 10:08:56 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Oh (3+ / 0-)

                            you mean the man who was responsible for the "suspension of all constitutional guarantees in the state of Louisiana?" (1)  The man who confided to his biographer that "he intended to outlaw the Democratic and Republican parties and serve four terms 'as dictator of the country'" (2)

                            Nice example.  Not exactly what I call progressive.  In fact, it seems like something I would go out into the street and fight against.  

                            (1) Manchester, William: "A Narrative History of America, 1932-1972" p. 133.  Little, Brown and Company, 1975.

                            (2) Ibid, p. 138.

                            Note to self, stop before I emulate the habits described in this diary.

                            by Rustbelt Dem on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 10:25:50 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  cite fix (3+ / 0-)

                            Manchester, William:  The Glory and the Dream: A Narrative History of America, 1932-1972" p. 133.  Little, Brown and Company, 1975.

                            Note to self, stop before I emulate the habits described in this diary.

                            by Rustbelt Dem on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 10:28:19 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  How ... inconvenient nt (4+ / 0-)

                            Next thing you'll claim is that intending to be Dictator of the United States is somehow a bad thing.

                            Zen and the Art of Penis Truck Maintenance

                            by virginislandsguy on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 11:02:30 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Well (3+ / 0-)

                            there are "neoliberal" threats to this country that require direct action. /snark

                            Really, before this gets out of hand, I'm willing to give Priceman the benefit of the doubt and just think him ignorant.  

                            Note to self, stop before I emulate the habits described in this diary.

                            by Rustbelt Dem on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 11:20:34 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  He gave you FDIC insuarnce (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            aliasalias, poligirl, Words In Action

                            by filibustering the New Deal which were part of many of his programs(the reason you still have money in your accoutn after 2008). His rhetoric could go over the top, but your reference doesn't coincide with how he called FDR's NRA an abuse of power he was glad was over.

                            FDR also wanted to steal his thunder. The party he created along with Dr. Townsend was responsible for the first SS platform. I know you don' care about old people or SS though.

                            ‎A) "Bipartisan usually means that a larger-than-usual deception is being carried out." - George Carlin B) "The administration should be worried about the level of despair here." ~Markos Moulitsas at NN12

                            by priceman on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 11:11:50 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  And he also built roads too, (2+ / 0-)

                            I'd rather have inefficient democracy than an efficient dictatorship, thank you very much.  

                            Now that I get a chilling feeling that you aren't so warm and fuzzy with the concept of constitutional governance (just as long as your side is calling the shots), I feel that there is no value to be had in communicating with you.  

                            Have a nice day.  

                            Note to self, stop before I emulate the habits described in this diary.

                            by Rustbelt Dem on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 11:18:49 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Says someone who excuses the NDAA (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            poligirl, Words In Action

                            He was elected as Governor and that is just one account, most likely inaccurate. Dictatorships aren't won at the ballot box.

                            ‎A) "Bipartisan usually means that a larger-than-usual deception is being carried out." - George Carlin B) "The administration should be worried about the level of despair here." ~Markos Moulitsas at NN12

                            by priceman on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 11:23:41 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Oh really? (2+ / 0-)

                            Tell that to the Weimar republic.

                            Note to self, stop before I emulate the habits described in this diary.

                            by Rustbelt Dem on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 11:27:21 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Myth: Democracy elected Hitler to power. (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            poligirl, Words In Action

                            ‎A) "Bipartisan usually means that a larger-than-usual deception is being carried out." - George Carlin B) "The administration should be worried about the level of despair here." ~Markos Moulitsas at NN12

                            by priceman on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 12:54:03 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Oh wait (2+ / 0-)

                            the NSDAP/DNVP coalition didn't exist in your eyes, or the intimidation of the other parties (Zentrum, particularly) to pass the Enabling Act?

                            Just admit that you made a mistake in your comparison based on anger at me and being ill-informed in general.  It's what I think you did anyway.  

                            Note to self, stop before I emulate the habits described in this diary.

                            by Rustbelt Dem on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 01:00:44 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  LOL. Well Mussolini made the trains (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Deep Texan

                            run on time and Hitler built the Autobahn.  You really need to study up on the first rule of holes.   You placed yourself directly in one when you decided to cite Huey Long as a "progressive".

                            Ultimately, the only thing that matters with respect to preserving choice is who will be nominating the next Supreme Court Justices.

                            by Its the Supreme Court Stupid on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 06:49:23 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  No, I didn't out myself in a hole... (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Words In Action

                            or make lazy conflations based upon one quote from one guy who is not really even the main authority on Long. Comparing Huey Long, Mussolini, and Hitler? Now that's lazy BS.

                            ‎A) "Bipartisan usually means that a larger-than-usual deception is being carried out." - George Carlin B) "The administration should be worried about the level of despair here." ~Markos Moulitsas at NN12

                            by priceman on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 07:28:49 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You are the one who called demogogue Long (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Deep Texan

                            a "progressive".  Yeah.  Progressives really join together with Father Coughlin (the Rush Limbaugh of his age).  So, keep digging there.  

                            Ultimately, the only thing that matters with respect to preserving choice is who will be nominating the next Supreme Court Justices.

                            by Its the Supreme Court Stupid on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 11:55:54 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  He heavily influenced the New Deal... (0+ / 0-)

                            and fought against Standard Oil and the robber barons in hi state. Father Coughlin was also a supporter of FDR in 1992(Oh no! Everyone abandon unemployment insurance!). He didn't really turn anti-semitic until Long's death but he was just one member of the Union party; a party that influenced pretty much most of the New Deal; like Dr. Pete Towsend and Social Security. Maybe all seniors are sellouts for being involved with SS? Mybe you should leave the party because some dude rote something unsubstantiated about Long once?

                            Teddy Roosveelt was a progressive despite his imperialistic tendencies and Long was also a progressive because of his contributions to working people despite what is written about him that is both exaggerated and not accurate for the most part.

                            You see, picking and choosing what you want to be reality because you worship a politician won't help you understand the nuances of history.

                            ‎A) "Bipartisan usually means that a larger-than-usual deception is being carried out." - George Carlin B) "The administration should be worried about the level of despair here." ~Markos Moulitsas at NN12

                            by priceman on Fri Sep 14, 2012 at 12:26:16 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Oh, and by the way, (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Deep Texan

                            go tothis pdf of the NYTimes, March 5, 1935, a speach by General Hugh Johnson,  the head of FDR's NRA.

                            In the speech he says:, amongst many other quotes regarding Long and Fr. Coughlin:

                            At least there is no such running with the hare and hunting with hounds about his little playmate, Huey Long.  You know just where he stands and how, given power, he will act; because you know how he has acted in the state of Louisiana.  There Huey is a dictator by force of arms and Adolf Hitler has nothing on him any way you care to look at them both.  In fact, Huey is the Hitler of one of our sovereign States - not in the forcible seizure of absolute and arbitrary powers alone but in the curious mixture of incredible mumbo-jumbo, the surface plausibility and undoubted personal magnetism that cause people to put their emotions before their reason and go stampeding off to nothing like a frightened sheep.
                            This speech is widely regarded to have been personally approved by FDR.  So, it is hardly a wild comparison.  It was being made 77 years ago.

                            Ultimately, the only thing that matters with respect to preserving choice is who will be nominating the next Supreme Court Justices.

                            by Its the Supreme Court Stupid on Fri Sep 14, 2012 at 12:17:56 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  The NRA was struck down by the SCOTUS... (0+ / 0-)

                            and is a blight on FDR's legacy. Just because General Hugh Johnson said it doesn't make it true. There was no genocide in LA.

                            FDR stole Huey's thunder and didn't like being criticized like when Huey Long marched up to the capitol with an army of unemployed veterans once FDR canceled veteran's benefits. Long made FDR better despite their enmity.

                            ‎A) "Bipartisan usually means that a larger-than-usual deception is being carried out." - George Carlin B) "The administration should be worried about the level of despair here." ~Markos Moulitsas at NN12

                            by priceman on Fri Sep 14, 2012 at 12:30:45 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  LOL. Your knowledge of history is underwhelming. (0+ / 0-)

                            There had been no genocide in Germany in 1935, but the comparison of Hitler to Long was (and still is) apt, AT THAT POINT in time.

                            Your silly attempts to portray a demgogic fascist who sided with an anti-Semitic Nazi sympathizer as the "true progressive" of the thirties is so patently ridiculous as to nullify the whole premise of this absurd diary.    Good day to you..  

                            Ultimately, the only thing that matters with respect to preserving choice is who will be nominating the next Supreme Court Justices.

                            by Its the Supreme Court Stupid on Fri Sep 14, 2012 at 07:32:27 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                      •  Why do you want results? (5+ / 0-)

                        Any particular goals in mind?

                        "The Global War on Terror is a justification for U.S. Imperialism. It must be stopped."

                        by BigAlinWashSt on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 09:36:25 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  judging by primary victories is what you... (7+ / 0-)

                        base your being closer to the pulse of the party?

                        come on....

                        the only people who show up in a primary that is uncontested (for the most part) are the people who are die hard supporters of whomever the sole person on the ballot is...  of course that person will win...

                        hardly something to gauge the pulse of the party on, lol... but you go guy!  

                        A) "The administration should be worried about the level of despair here." ~Markos Moulitsas at NN12 B) "Stoking the base’s enthusiasm is part of a campaign’s job, whether or not it thinks it should have to do it." ~Michelle Goldberg

                        by poligirl on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 07:24:09 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                  •  Logical fallacy alert (7+ / 0-)
                    I'm guessing that nobody reads your links besides your 6 or so true believers.
                    Popularity, or the lack thereof, does not prove anything. This is known as argumentum ad populum, in which it is argued a position is either right or wrong based on the numbers of supporters. Think about history, in which atrocities of every conceivable horror had popular appeal.  

                    Off topic, but hey, check out this:

                    http://sdnyblog.com/...

                    I'm fairly certain the names of the plaintiffs on this law suit that just won an injunction against NDAA aren't popular with your crowd, but the judge disagrees on the merits of the group-think.

                     

                    "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act". -George Orwell

                    by ZhenRen on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 10:33:21 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  But we're not trying (4+ / 0-)

                      to win an argument, we are trying to win an election and push back against a barbarous agenda.

                      Remember, Democracy is a numbers game, so no need to cite fallacies.  Of course, the diarist looks to the checks and balances of Huey Long as an example of progressive governance, so I'm not sure what to think here.  

                      Note to self, stop before I emulate the habits described in this diary.

                      by Rustbelt Dem on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 10:43:29 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  If you're not trying to win an argument (7+ / 0-)

                        based on facts and truth, but rather trying to invalidate, harass, and discourage discussion, basing your approach on your electoral political goals, as if that trumps all other concerns, then you're attacking honest dissent, and that you care little about real issues.

                        You're basically admitting that suppressing speech serves your interests.

                        People who take this sort of approach are rather chilling. When truth is thrown under the bus by people who claim to be advancing truthful policies, it suggests that their agenda has nothing at all to do with truth.

                        "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act". -George Orwell

                        by ZhenRen on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 10:58:56 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Meant to write: (4+ / 0-)

                          "and you're revealing that you care little about real issues."

                          "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act". -George Orwell

                          by ZhenRen on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 11:01:37 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                        •  Not as chilling (2+ / 0-)

                          as someone who holds up a borderline (and maybe not borderline) fascist like Huey Long as a progressive hero.  

                          Now, I'm willing to bet that the diarist is just ignorant and relies on wiki-history to fit his narrative.  I don't ascribe malice where stupidity would be more apt.  

                          Note to self, stop before I emulate the habits described in this diary.

                          by Rustbelt Dem on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 11:08:06 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Fascism? (6+ / 0-)

                            We don't need to go to Huey Long for any of that.

                            Just look at our present day security state, largely supported by Democrats, to find some troubling "borderline" trends in that direction.

                            "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act". -George Orwell

                            by ZhenRen on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 11:13:06 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  When Obama (2+ / 0-)

                            Leads troops down Pennsylvania Avenue as a way to intimidate his opponents, like Huey Long did in Lousiana, then talk to me.  

                            Note to self, stop before I emulate the habits described in this diary.

                            by Rustbelt Dem on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 11:15:46 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  See reply down thread. (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            priceman, poligirl, Words In Action

                            Yes, I took your invitation to "get back" to you.

                            "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act". -George Orwell

                            by ZhenRen on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 11:43:42 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Hard to pin fascism on Long (4+ / 0-)

                            Fascists aren't exactly known for supporting egalitarianism.

                            Fascists, historically, have been known for protection of the corporate and landowning wealthy class and for preservation of class systems.

                            That doesn't sound like Long at all, and it certainly doesn't match anything written by Price.

                            You're out of line here for alluding to fascism in this discussion.

                            Long was good at the political game. He was to the left of FDR, and thus he earned dislike from many corners. He used the heavy hand of power (and I'm not defending that, necessarily), but this element alone does not distinguish him from most other successful politicians. He simply may have been better at it.

                            Who else, may I ask, is also known, viz-a-viz this discussion, as being very good at the political game?

                            And who is known for enacting authoritarian measures, having kill lists, allowing spying on Americans, engaging in drone strikes against civilians, and enabling the wealthy class?

                            Do you really want to go down this road in this discussion?

                            "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act". -George Orwell

                            by ZhenRen on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 11:42:28 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Wait (2+ / 0-)

                            so the phrase "dictatorship of the proletariat" wasn't a call for egalitarian solidarity?  Given that one of my degrees was in 20th Century History, I can probably hold my own in this conversation.  

                            It's an established fact that Huey Long had strong authoritarian and fascistic tendencies.  I would have fought to marginalize him in 1936, like Franklin Roosevelt did.  

                            And for those that complain about a "rightward tilt" in the last few decades in the party, I ask you: Do you want to go back to the days of James Eastland, Bull Connor, and George Wallace?

                            Note to self, stop before I emulate the habits described in this diary.

                            by Rustbelt Dem on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 11:49:32 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Did long use the phrase (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            priceman, poligirl, Words In Action

                            "dictatorship of the proletariat'?

                            I recall that he claimed not to be communist. If he said this, I'd want to see the complete context. Links, please.

                            "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act". -George Orwell

                            by ZhenRen on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 11:52:12 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Please explain (2+ / 0-)

                            the real differences between authoritarian fascism and communist bureaucratic centralism in practice throughout the 20th century, beyond rhetoric and which precise groups of people were to be slaughtered?

                            Once again, I'll wait

                            Note to self, stop before I emulate the habits described in this diary.

                            by Rustbelt Dem on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 11:54:48 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Fascism (4+ / 0-)

                            has a lot of varied definitions and scholars are not in universal agreement, but I don't recall any experts including the soviet union in this. Authoritarian, certainly, but fascist? I think you're making the common error of confusing authoritarianism and fascism. Authoritarianism is a component of fascism, but without the other elements, is not fascism as a single factor.

                            But you ignored my question. Are you taking the time to think before responding? I asked if Long had EVER supported the Marxist concept of "dictatorship of the proletariat." If he used that term, I want context. Please provide links. I do agree that the Marxist concept is authoritarian, which I don't support. I'm not a Marxist. But I doubt that Long used that term, and if he did, the context would be important, since he asserted that he was not a communist. And yet that one comment alone is not evidence of fascism.

                            As to being an authoritarian, that assertion may well have some truth behind it. But in that, he wouldn't be alone in America politics. Most Democrats are authoritarian.

                            Where would you put Long on the chart at the link?:

                            http://www.politicalcompass.org/...

                            If Long would be placed on the left of the spectrum, his authoritarianism would simply be to the left of Obama's authoritarianism, but Obama could still be said to be as authoritarian as anyone. What's the difference between authoritarianism used on a state level and authoritarianism used on a national and international level. Well, for one thing, there is the weaponry and the enormous power of the national security apparatus that Long didn't have. Long's abuse of power is puny compared to that of Obama's. Long didn't have a kill list. He didn't use indefinite detention. He didn't look the other way on torture, or allow inhumane treatment under his authority. He didn't turn detainees over to other states to torture by proxy. He didn't take away the right to habeus corpus as Obama has done with NDAA.

                            Here's one concise definition of fascism from Webster's:
                            http://www.merriam-webster.com/...

                            See the areas I put in bold.

                            Philosophy of government that stresses the primacy and glory of the state, unquestioning obedience to its leader, subordination of the individual will to the state's authority, and harsh suppression of dissent. Martial virtues are celebrated, while liberal and democratic values are disparaged. Fascism arose during the 1920s and '30s partly out of fear of the rising power of the working classes; it differed from contemporary communism (as practiced under Joseph Stalin) by its protection of business and landowning elites and its preservation of class systems. The leaders of the fascist governments of Italy (1922–43), Germany (1933–45), and Spain (1939–75)—Benito Mussolini, Adolf Hitler, and Francisco Franco—were portrayed to their publics as embodiments of the strength and resolve necessary to rescue their nations from political and economic chaos. Japanese fascists (1936–45) fostered belief in the uniqueness of the Japanese spirit and taught subordination to the state and personal sacrifice. See also totalitarianism; neofascism.

                            "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act". -George Orwell

                            by ZhenRen on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 12:46:10 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Oh please (2+ / 0-)

                            the very book in your sig line takes pains to show that Russian Communism and National Socialism were basically the same, and that one form of authoritarianism is indistinguishable from each other despite the rhetoric. Have you even read 1984 or just watched the movie?

                            So, when Huey Long rules without checks and balances, with brutish intimidation and outright extra constitutionality all in the name of "Every man a king,"  how is that different than the red guards trying to achieve the dictatorship of the proletariat.  I'm talking in real terms to the real people crushed by the boot, not in the speeches of the pious.  

                            Oh, and by the way, Italian Fascism was formed from the pro war breakaway faction of the Italian Socialist Party.  

                            Note to self, stop before I emulate the habits described in this diary.

                            by Rustbelt Dem on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 12:57:53 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  *formed in part by (2+ / 0-)

                            Along with a those who felt displaced by postwar economic society as well as those who thought that the liberal royalist government had betrayed Italy at Versailles.  

                            Note to self, stop before I emulate the habits described in this diary.

                            by Rustbelt Dem on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 01:07:49 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Orwell seemed to think that fascism (5+ / 0-)

                            and communist authoritarianism were different, but that they both led to totalitarianism, and thus the same end result.

                            You are aware he was a socialist and he fought on the side of anarchists and socialists in the Spanish Civil War?

                            Anyway, are you suggesting now that Long was in favor of full blown totalitarianism? (heh, this is getting wild)

                            And you haven't answered my assertion that Obama has very strong steaks of authoritarianism.

                            In fact, you've wavered all over the place and haven't really answered anything I've written.

                            "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act". -George Orwell

                            by ZhenRen on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 01:55:57 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I was evicted from three Occupy parks (6+ / 0-)

                            all by a rather mainstream democratic mayor. And other Democratic mayors did the same in other cities.

                            Yes, I know all about intimidation by those in power. Long isn't alone in using authoritarianism while in office. He simply earned the ire of the establishment by doing it from the left... something that hasn't happened very often in this country. But other Democrats, Obama included, have been some of the most violent users of state authority in American history.

                            "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act". -George Orwell

                            by ZhenRen on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 11:50:37 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You know what (0+ / 0-)

                            Since you and yours didn't and don't really care about the auto industry, I really don't give a fuck about occupy(!!!)

                            You didn't expect be to be compassionate to the people that wanted my state to die, did you?

                            Note to self, stop before I emulate the habits described in this diary.

                            by Rustbelt Dem on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 11:57:03 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  *me to be nt (0+ / 0-)

                            Note to self, stop before I emulate the habits described in this diary.

                            by Rustbelt Dem on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 11:57:20 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  What? (7+ / 0-)

                            Try sticking to the topic, for fuck's sake. And who said I don't care about auto jobs?

                            Considering my current state of severe underemployment, I know full well the consequences of the economy. I don't begrudge people for being glad their jobs were protected. There are times, in my circumstances, I think quite rationally of just pulling the plug and ending the misery. I loath my environment.

                            The criticism of Obama's handling of the economy is he engaged in the usual practice of protecting elites at the expense of the rest of us. Even when people were helped, the elites in those particular circumstances were helped infinitely more. THAT is the criticism.

                            I'm glad people in your state were helped. I just wish much more was done to help real people, and less done with the motive of bailing out the incompetence of the wealthy class.

                            "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act". -George Orwell

                            by ZhenRen on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 01:38:19 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  This^ is the definition of hrable (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            poligirl, priceman, Words In Action

                            There are no sacred cows.

                            by LaEscapee on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 06:41:36 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Then do it (4+ / 0-)

                            It's no secret that Huey Long had authoritarian fascistic tendencies and was allied with the likes of Fr. Charles Coughlin.  FDR fought against him, I would have too.  Maybe you were taught differently in Louisiana, but many were taught that Huey Long was a dangerous fanatic.

                            This will be my last comment in this diary (Bob, most of my comments were replies to comments made to me. I go my comment page to avoid the far right margin, but whatever).  Planning for a 3 day weekend to enjoy the outdoors before it gets cold.  Cheers!

                            Note to self, stop before I emulate the habits described in this diary.

                            by Rustbelt Dem on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 06:51:44 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Get bit Dick? (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            priceman, Words In Action
                            Now, I'm willing to bet that the diarist is just ignorant

                            There are no sacred cows.

                            by LaEscapee on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 08:31:51 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I was being kind (0+ / 0-)

                            There are worse things you can be called than ignorant.  

                            Now please, I need to pack.  Bye.

                            Note to self, stop before I emulate the habits described in this diary.

                            by Rustbelt Dem on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 08:35:54 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You were not being kind (3+ / 0-)

                            Good grief, what a self enamored pedant who constantly conflates his own opinions as fact.

                            "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act". -George Orwell

                            by ZhenRen on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 08:55:46 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  That is the best literary criticism (0+ / 0-)

                            I have ever received, can I use it as my sig line?

                            Note to self, stop before I emulate the habits described in this diary.

                            by Rustbelt Dem on Fri Sep 14, 2012 at 09:33:17 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You know what (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Rustbelt Dem

                            I won't play your little game, I want everyone to see what a child you are.

                            There are no sacred cows.

                            by LaEscapee on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 10:00:52 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                        •  LOL Talk About Logical Fallacy Alert (3+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Rustbelt Dem, kefauver, Deep Texan
                          based on facts and truth, but rather trying to invalidate, harass, and discourage discussion, basing your approach on your electoral political goals, as if that trumps all other concerns, then you're attacking honest dissent, and that you care little about real issues.
                          The tactics one employes has zero reflection on whether or not they care about the actual issues.

                          Too Folk For You. - Schmidting in the Punch Bowl - verb - Committing an unexpected and underhanded political act intended to "spoil the party."

                          by TooFolkGR on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 12:28:29 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Nonsense (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            poligirl, priceman, Words In Action

                            Tactics, when they contradict one's proclaimed values and lead to the opposite, do reflect on basic outlook of the person.

                            Otherwise, the ends truly would justify the means.

                            You're lost in the woods if you don't understand this. This is why I can't jump on your bandwagon. The tune it plays is out of sink with the purported message, all in the name of winning at any expense.

                            "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act". -George Orwell

                            by ZhenRen on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 02:21:34 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  That's Fine, We'll Keep Winning (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Deep Texan

                            You keep whining.

                            Too Folk For You. - Schmidting in the Punch Bowl - verb - Committing an unexpected and underhanded political act intended to "spoil the party."

                            by TooFolkGR on Fri Sep 14, 2012 at 05:18:09 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  What are you winning? Besides an empty seat... (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            priceman

                            Action on global warming?

                            Constitutional rights?

                            Economic equality?

                            Or are we, in fact, losing on these fronts?

                            It took a federal judge to enjoin Obama's NDAA. Thank goodness.

                            Only someone who loves the status quo and wants to keep it that way would describe the sound of the citizenry raising their voices in protest to be whining.

                            "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act". -George Orwell

                            by ZhenRen on Fri Sep 14, 2012 at 08:35:19 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                    •  that's NOT really ot, it's important and earlier (7+ / 0-)

                      I posted on Facebook a story on it.
                      I wonder how supporters will defend any appeal of that decision by this administration, I don't know of any arguing against the first appeal so I imagine it will just be another IOIODI (it's ok if Obama does it).

                      without the ants the rainforest dies

                      by aliasalias on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 11:10:03 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

            •  lol. (6+ / 0-)

              BS as an illegitimate presidential commission. And presidential commissions, by and large, are just political posturing. Can you name one that resulted in an economic policy change?

              Lo que separa la civilizacion de la anarquia son solo siete comidas.

              by psilocynic on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 08:56:54 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  The Greenspan commission (10+ / 0-)

                While you're laughing, the SS age went up to 67.

                I don't think it's funny, though, just pathetic you don't know that.

                ‎A) "Bipartisan usually means that a larger-than-usual deception is being carried out." - George Carlin B) "The administration should be worried about the level of despair here." ~Markos Moulitsas at NN12

                by priceman on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 09:15:35 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  You had to go all the way back to 1981 (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Rustbelt Dem, Deep Texan

                  AND that commission was one of the most politically charged of our time. The outcome was concluded before the commission began if I remember correctly. Not a really good example for you argument if you ask me and it kind of highlights a point I was trying to make. You and your ilk are unwilling to cede the FACTUAL point that BS was not a legitimate commission and your one example proves the political nature of presidential commissions.

                  Lo que separa la civilizacion de la anarquia son solo siete comidas.

                  by psilocynic on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 10:37:14 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  I have to add, you have proven time and again how (3+ / 0-)

                  little you know of politics when you make snide comments like that. Greenspan was given the report he submitted to congress and the president. It was already prepared in advance. There was no debate in the "commission". It was a foregone conclusion what was going to happen and that's because of what presidential commissions are by nature. They do one (sometimes both) of two things; provide cover for a president to do something that may be unpopular (your example) or allow a president to push a decision down the road knowing it will go nowhere (Simpson Bowles). That you don't understand that and you keep repeating misinformation and while treating Simpson Bowles as if it were a legitimate commission (unlike 1981) is what's truly pathetic.

                  Lo que separa la civilizacion de la anarquia son solo siete comidas.

                  by psilocynic on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 10:47:56 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Wow Nancy Altman of SS works would differ with you (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    poligirl, Words In Action, pot

                    that there wasn't a debate, because there was a debate in the Commission and Nancy Altman developed the amendments for the program as Greenspan's assistant. So basically you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

                    ‎A) "Bipartisan usually means that a larger-than-usual deception is being carried out." - George Carlin B) "The administration should be worried about the level of despair here." ~Markos Moulitsas at NN12

                    by priceman on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 11:08:19 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Yeaaaah. Half true. (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Deep Texan
                      Mr. Greenspan and his fellow commissioners had met for months and were secretly deadlocked, despite optimistic public statements. Members of Congress were uniformly terrified of raising payroll taxes or cutting benefits, both of which obviously had to be part of any real solution. Then, one late afternoon, Pat Moynihan (D-NY) walked across the floor to talk to Senate Finance Committee Chair Bob Dole (R-KS). I couldn't hear what they were saying, but it didn't take a rocket scientist to realize the topic was Social Security. They cut the deal in broad outline right there, fed it to Mr. Greenspan, and left the details to his Commission.

                      So at the last minute, Republicans and Democrats locked arms around a plan "to save Social Security" by raising the payroll tax, to shave benefits, and to very gradually raise the retirement age on future retirees. President Reagan endorsed it, and the rest was history. Like a lot of bad economic theory, the idea that the Greenspan Commission solved the 1983 Social Security crisis has the causality backwards. Dole and Moynihan fed the deal to the Commission, not the other way around.

                      From Mother Jones

                      Great blog post on how the 1983 commission was a cover. But even this post, I'm afraid, perpetuates some of the myth.

                      As of the beginning on 1983, the commission was all but dissolved. Understanding the dire political importance of not letting the trust fund run out of money, the White House then began a series of secret negotiations with Pat Moynihan and Former SSA Director Robert Ball (who was basically representing Tip O'Neill). I believe the White House representatives were David Stockman, Dick Darman, sometimes Kenneth Duberstein, and a fourth person.

                      Once they had agreed to a basic framework, then Dole was brought in, along with Alan Greenspan, James Baker, and Barber Conable. That group of nine or ten was eventually expanded further, to make sure they'd have the support of the leadership, organized labor, and enough commissioners.

                      Only then were the recommendations brought back to the commission to pass.

                      Like I said. You don't understand this as well as you think you do.

                      Lo que separa la civilizacion de la anarquia son solo siete comidas.

                      by psilocynic on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 11:22:36 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  I don't care what Kevin Drum says (3+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        aliasalias, poligirl, Words In Action

                        or his source. I rust Robert M. Ball and Nancy Altman who was there.

                        I'm not impressed with Kevin Drum's resources on this.

                        The Bipartisan Panel: Did It Really Work?

                        But just in time for the latest debate, the unpublished posthumous memoir of a central figure on the Greenspan panel, Robert M. Ball, a former Social Security commissioner, has emerged to challenge the conventional wisdom about its achievement.

                        In a sprightly account promoted by former staff members from both parties, Mr. Ball calls the Greenspan Commission a failure. As he tells it, only a willingness to compromise by the two principal antagonists of the time — Ronald Reagan, the Republican president, and Representative Thomas P. O’Neill, the Democratic House speaker — made it possible for Mr. Ball and a few others to salvage from the deadlocked panel a deal that raised payroll taxes and trimmed benefits enough to keep Social Security solvent.

                        “A commission is no substitute for principled commitment,” wrote Mr. Ball, who died two years ago at 93. He expected that growing deficits soon would spur talk of another such panel. “Above all,” he added, “we should not allow ourselves to fall into the trap of expecting miracles from another Greenspan Commission — by deluding ourselves into believing, mistakenly, that the first one was a great success.”

                        [........]

                        The commission met roughly monthly from February to November of 1982 without progress. Democrats remained opposed to benefit cuts and Republicans to payroll tax increases. In the futile hope that getting away from Capitol Hill might help, the panel met in November at a Virginia hotel. December’s session lasted only minutes, though the panel’s deadline was Dec. 31.

                        [........]

                        Mr. Reagan extended the commission’s life by two weeks to Jan. 15, but it “was no longer functioning,” Mr. Ball wrote. “Some of its members didn’t know we were meeting.” When word leaked and reporters staked out his house before one session, Mr. Ball sneaked out the rear and slid down a hill to a car sent by the White House.

                        The group reached agreement late on Jan. 15, a Saturday, and secured support from a commission majority only with White House arm-twisting.

                        Wow, they met all that time with no debate at all. They just rushed through Greenspan's recommendations. BS. No one should care about what you or Kevin Drum think happened. We know from those that were there.

                        ‎A) "Bipartisan usually means that a larger-than-usual deception is being carried out." - George Carlin B) "The administration should be worried about the level of despair here." ~Markos Moulitsas at NN12

                        by priceman on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 12:57:45 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                    •  And again, you are dodging the (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Rustbelt Dem, Deep Texan

                      actual point of my original post. Simpson Bowles was not an sanction commission. They didn't have the amount of member they would need to make it a legitimate commission. You can dance around that as much as you want, but its a fact. Aren't we supposed to be fact based here? Why do you keep spreading misinformation?

                      Lo que separa la civilizacion de la anarquia son solo siete comidas.

                      by psilocynic on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 11:25:43 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

              •  The commission doesn't have to lead directly (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                priceman

                to policy change. It can move the Overton Window. It can confer legitimacy on radical ideas and make them seem middle-of-the-road. I think Simpson-Bowles has already succeeded in doing that.

                Who would have thought a few years ago that a Democratic president would be willing without a fight to raise the Medicare eligibility age and cut SS COLAs - two atrocious things?

                We decided to move the center farther to the right by starting the whole debate from a far-right position to begin with. - Former House Majority Leader Tom DeLay

                by denise b on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 10:17:08 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  Shh, facts spoil an echo chamber narrative nt (7+ / 0-)

            Note to self, stop before I emulate the habits described in this diary.

            by Rustbelt Dem on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 08:53:57 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  Without Medicaid+programs forcing them to (6+ / 0-)

        Obama mentioned it once. It's not really a consistent theme as with Cuomo's though Clinton mentioned it more than Obama but ti wasn't really much of a theme.

        Nah, I've seen plenty. Plus you lose poor points as soon as you bring up the deficit or free trade. Medicaid is on the chopping block because of deficit terrorism. Cuomo talked about subsidizing foreign steel when there are unemployed wokrers here.

        ‎A) "Bipartisan usually means that a larger-than-usual deception is being carried out." - George Carlin B) "The administration should be worried about the level of despair here." ~Markos Moulitsas at NN12

        by priceman on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 08:45:47 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Evidence please. (nmi) (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        priceman, poligirl, Words In Action

        "Once the Lords of Capital are no longer the lords of anything, humanity gets another shot at rational development of the species and the planet." - Glen Ford

        by Cassiodorus on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 10:36:15 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  that's one of my favorite speeches and sadly like (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      priceman, poligirl, Words In Action

      Birch Bayh the fruit of that tree rolled far from the tree. In fact both sons are like they are from an entirely different stock.

      without the ants the rainforest dies

      by aliasalias on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 11:00:01 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  you can call yourself whatever you want (4+ / 0-)

    it's what everyone else calls you that matters, in politics.

    Faby-o, downrec me again. You know I love it!

    by Cheez Whiz on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 08:34:20 AM PDT

  •  Yeah (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    priceman, poligirl, Words In Action

    poverty? Riches!!!

    There are no sacred cows.

    by LaEscapee on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 08:35:31 AM PDT

  •  please mask poopy word in title (5+ / 0-)

    I.e. spell it "sh!t"
    swear words can block the entire site if they're on the front page. Thanks.

    I ♥ President Barack Obama.

    by ericlewis0 on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 08:38:34 AM PDT

  •  You need to change 'shit' in your title. (5+ / 0-)

    Filters will keep many from reading the entire site because of it.

  •  The entire UMKC school (of economic thought)... (21+ / 0-)

    ...(i.e.: L. Randall Wray, Michael Hudson, Bill Black, Stephanie Kelton, etc.) is being quite shamefully abused within this community at the moment, with THIS being a good example of what I'm stating.

    Apparently, during election season, when the voices of the people count the most, they are being deliberately suppressed within this community. And, as it so happens this year, it's a matter of public record that those at the top of the ticket in our party wholeheartedly embrace the neoliberal economic efforts (very simply, it is AUSTERITY under a different brand) of the New Democrats/Third Way.

    It's sad when I hear talk of "shared sacrifice." THERE IS NO "SHARED SACRIFICE" in our society these days. It's been a one-sided exercise in suppression of the middle and lower class for decades. Any sane reference to the term would eliminate ANY ADD'L "SACRIFICE" for at least a few decades for those that have carried the burden of the oligarchy/status quo and the one percent since at least 1980.

    We're talkin' REPARATIONS! The time for sacrifice for those that have sacrificed just about everything, already, is OVER.

    Some within our own Party simply don't understand that.

    "I always thought if you worked hard enough and tried hard enough, things would work out. I was wrong." --Katharine Graham

    by bobswern on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 08:47:30 AM PDT

  •  I don't know (6+ / 0-)

    Can one cheer the collapse of the American Auto industry and call themselves friends of the working class?

    Can one support letting uninsured Americans, ones that are now covered under ACA, die in the name of a public option and call themselves compassionate or enlightened?

    I can play this game too.  

    Note to self, stop before I emulate the habits described in this diary.

    by Rustbelt Dem on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 08:50:06 AM PDT

  •  This is politics (5+ / 0-)

    You can call yourself whatever you want.  

    Now what you choose to support is a whole other story.  My guess tells me no matter who controls Congress next year, Simpson-Bowles is dead.  Why?

    Because the Republicans will never go along with Obama and enough Democrats will fight it.  

    Let's not forget, the closest the "grand bargain" got to an actual plan was Boehner refusing to go along.   Nothing ever got beyond meetings.  

    In the meantime, me and millions of others will vote our self-interest as we perceive it.  We'll fight our battles as they come along.  

  •  Given that Income/Wealth inequality is as.... (10+ / 0-)

    ...bad as it's been since the late 20s, I don't think anyone can accept ANY regressive tax and still call himself a Dem.

    And because Simpson/Bowles recommended a variant of a carbon tax (whether direct, or via Cap and Trade), I don't think any Dem can support it.

    Learn about Centrist Economics, learn about Robert Rubin's Hamilton Project. www.hamiltonproject.org

    by PatriciaVa on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 09:00:16 AM PDT

    •  I think you're right, PatriciaVa nt (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      PatriciaVa, poligirl, Words In Action

      ‎A) "Bipartisan usually means that a larger-than-usual deception is being carried out." - George Carlin B) "The administration should be worried about the level of despair here." ~Markos Moulitsas at NN12

      by priceman on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 01:32:54 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  There's a lotta populist talk goin' on though, (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      PatriciaVa

      now that it's campaign season again.

      We got that goin' for us.

      Purging predominantly minority voters and requiring them to present IDs to vote in the face of VIRTUALLY NON-EXISTENT VOTER FRAUD is RACISM! I hereby declare all consenting Republicans RACISTS until they stand up and object to these practices!

      by Words In Action on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 10:05:28 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  This is the time for clarity of public demand (6+ / 0-)

    All Dem candidates for election and reelection should be on notice that S-B as the two chairs scripted it and as rejected by the presidential commission is not acceptable.

    At this time, and in our present circumstances, NO benefit cuts to Social Security or Medicare are acceptable. They're unwarranted and fail the first-things-first test.

    Long before Americans, nearly always at the ready for real shared sacrifice and real reform, consider reforming or "modernizing" these national jewels of social legislation, the government must show goof faith and first fix the mess it has created. Specifically, the Bush tax cuts must be allowed to expire, the unnecessary and undirected war in Afghanistan must end, taxes reformed, corporate welfare ended, and a severe reduction in the war fitting budget for DoD.

    Only then, and after unemployment is reduced to a reasonable level, can the reality of the  economy resurface from this miasma of corruption, war mongering, and crony capitalism.

    Obama elected not to bring the previous administration or Wall St. to justice so their tentacles are till embedded and operational. Fix this mess first to earn the barest credibility necessary to consider asking Americans about changing programs that work and serve the nation.

    One last thing. Health care costs are out of control. Medicare is the only aspect of US health care with a semblance of operational, effective cost controls. Dumping that asset and shifting costs onto private pocketbooks, eliminating the vast negotiating power of a single purchaser/single payer  is insane, incompetent, and does not pass any test of logic.

    After all of this shit is cleaned from the fan, hell, I'm always up for change, even radical reform!

    Let all Bush tax cuts expire and , bring on the Sequestration cuts to defense.

    by kck on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 09:14:07 AM PDT

    •  I.e, no vote unless they pledge to vote no on (5+ / 0-)

      the cuts?

      "The Global War on Terror is a justification for U.S. Imperialism. It must be stopped."

      by BigAlinWashSt on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 09:34:02 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  If you mean the presidential re-election... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        poligirl, Words In Action

        ...Obama must be re-elected. The misery of 4 more years of the same unreasonable grid lock is far better than turning the keys over to Romney, a war monger and tax cutter.

        I'm saying that while people are seeking votes and listening and reporting and polling the message from Dems should be loud, clear, specific, and unified.

        Let all Bush tax cuts expire and , bring on the Sequestration cuts to defense.

        by kck on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 09:48:51 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Actually I meant Congress and Senate, they're (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          aliasalias, poligirl, Words In Action

          the ones that vote on bills and laws.  I mean, what is that loud and clear meassage, if you don't leave SS and Medicare alone, why, we'll give you a noogie, or we won't vote for your ass.  

          "The Global War on Terror is a justification for U.S. Imperialism. It must be stopped."

          by BigAlinWashSt on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 10:04:54 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  No one who votes to cut SS or Medicare... (3+ / 0-)

            ...will ever get my vote. For now a relentless, crisp, clear public demand for governance, without cuts to SS/M, is our responsibility, with no equivocation or disunity. No false loyalties.

            It's not just for Americans. The world needs to be assured that despite the cowardly and dysfunctional governments in US and Europe, the people of democracies have not lost our minds.  

            Let all Bush tax cuts expire and , bring on the Sequestration cuts to defense.

            by kck on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 10:47:27 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  Not one day less, not one dollar more. (5+ / 0-)
    •  Solidarity, kck (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      poligirl, Words In Action, kck
      All Dem candidates for election and reelection should be on notice that S-B as the two chairs scripted it and as rejected by the presidential commission is not acceptable.
      I only want austerity for the MIC. The need for it is not there and the unsustainable path of Medicare can be fixed with medicare for All, but if not pursued that which can't be sustained won't be eventually, though it won't mean default because that is an impossibility but it will mean prolonged misery.

      ‎A) "Bipartisan usually means that a larger-than-usual deception is being carried out." - George Carlin B) "The administration should be worried about the level of despair here." ~Markos Moulitsas at NN12

      by priceman on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 01:40:50 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Solidarity. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        priceman

        Solidarity is the footing on which to move forward when operatives like Obama adviser Steve Rattner or Emanuel or Bowles, even the Big Dog Bill Clinton try to paint progressives as being too far left or unwilling to compromise on SS/M or "selfish Boomers" because this is not a left-right or generational fight.

         

        Let all Bush tax cuts expire and , bring on the Sequestration cuts to defense.

        by kck on Fri Sep 14, 2012 at 05:30:19 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Absolutely, just like in Poland (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          kck

          Different times and economic systems, but in a way, same fight.

          ‎A) "Bipartisan usually means that a larger-than-usual deception is being carried out." - George Carlin B) "The administration should be worried about the level of despair here." ~Markos Moulitsas at NN12

          by priceman on Fri Sep 14, 2012 at 06:14:32 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Simpson-Bowles or not, the austerity writing (16+ / 0-)

    is on the wall and will be supported by the Dems because their leaders will support austerity.  And they will support austerity over cutting defense, intelligence, and national security spending.  Why would now be any different than the last 3 years?   The budget deficit is over $1 trillion per year, the national debt is $16 trillion and growing fast.  They are going to make major cuts and if anyone believes it will be to defense, they are just kidding themselves.  Think of the global agenda of full spectrum dominance.  They can keep defense, intelligence, and national security spending from growing as fast as it has the last ten years by using other methods and tactics such as more special forces, drones, and proxies, but you can't operate an Empire on the cheap.  Obama is open to cuts in SS, Medicare and Medicaid, and all the social programs under the nondiscretionary portion of the budget.  The only question is how the Kabuki theatre presentation will proceed to attempt to mask their bipartisan effort.

    "The Global War on Terror is a justification for U.S. Imperialism. It must be stopped."

    by BigAlinWashSt on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 09:21:38 AM PDT

  •  This is partly on target (4+ / 0-)

    Not sure I agree with "There is no conceivable time in this new normal of high unemployment that there will ever be a need to balance the federal budget or tackle the debt." The current trajectory of the federal deficit is unsustainable in the long run. Not making the deficit go up so fast is in fact important. Making it go down is desirable, although a balanced budget is not going to happen soon, and there is a reasonable argument that deficit reduction should not be a priority at this time.

    Simpson-Bowles was bad for several reasons, among them that the co-chair's recommendations had changes to Social Security that really went beyond the commission's charter, because Social Security does not directly contribute to the deficit. They also had gratuitous changes to the tax code that made it less progressive, and again, didn't by themselves improve the deficit picture. Some of the same problems exist in Romney/Ryan's plan, to the extent they have a plan.

    •  I understand the orthodox story but it's not true (3+ / 0-)

      Japan is a great example because they control their currency like we do with an overall debt to GDP ratio of over 200% and they are even lending money to the IMF.

      Of course that propaganda is everywhere so I don't hold it against you and I'm glad we agree on opposing SB.

      ‎A) "Bipartisan usually means that a larger-than-usual deception is being carried out." - George Carlin B) "The administration should be worried about the level of despair here." ~Markos Moulitsas at NN12

      by priceman on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 01:46:46 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  True you can't technically default if you print (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        poligirl, priceman, Words In Action

        money. That does mean you cannot have a bad economic outcome. And Japan may yet have one.

        •  You need deficits even more during those outcomes (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Words In Action

          and an employer of last resort ie the government to step in and directly hire people. deficits put money into private sector pockets via national accounting sectoral balances like double entry bookkeeping.

          Inflation is the constraint as far as deficit spending because if everyone is employed it can drive prices up but there is no insolvency for countries that can print money or create it as data on a computer which is what most money really is like the loans created by commercial banks.

          ‎A) "Bipartisan usually means that a larger-than-usual deception is being carried out." - George Carlin B) "The administration should be worried about the level of despair here." ~Markos Moulitsas at NN12

          by priceman on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 08:41:33 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Strange... (10+ / 0-)

    We heard for over a year that Simpson Bowles didn't have the support of the WH and that those who claimed otherwise were emoprog instigators.

    Now, after all this time, and all this blunder, the truth emerges.

    Of course, this being daily kos, the same people who have prevented any serious discussion of SB are now out in force, telling us that embracing it is the only path forward.

    •  Not so strange (4+ / 0-)

      after all. In fact it's lazy to keep repeating this. Pelosi told all of you she thinks original SB is awesome and worth supporting with the chained CPI and everything.

      This can a rebuttal to the rest of the hoard making this lazy point.

      ‎A) "Bipartisan usually means that a larger-than-usual deception is being carried out." - George Carlin B) "The administration should be worried about the level of despair here." ~Markos Moulitsas at NN12

      by priceman on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 01:49:09 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Sorry. I didn't mean you, dclawyer06 (4+ / 0-)

      I'm sorry, dclawyer06. It's been a long day and I mistyped. You get it. Many here do not.

      ‎A) "Bipartisan usually means that a larger-than-usual deception is being carried out." - George Carlin B) "The administration should be worried about the level of despair here." ~Markos Moulitsas at NN12

      by priceman on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 01:51:37 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  yep. when Clinton touted it in his DNC speech... (4+ / 0-)

      i knew we were gonna be toast... the writing is on the wall. it's just a matter of how they can figure out to spin/excuse it...  sigh...

      A) "The administration should be worried about the level of despair here." ~Markos Moulitsas at NN12 B) "Stoking the base’s enthusiasm is part of a campaign’s job, whether or not it thinks it should have to do it." ~Michelle Goldberg

      by poligirl on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 07:51:12 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Meh. (8+ / 0-)

    Lots of heat for failed predictions, but little light for actual results.

    You pretty much lost all credit for predictions after writing this.

    ACA didn't go down, Simpson-Bowles never got passed, we're not all eating Catfood!, Geithner was never indicted, we never saw a double-dip recession, and the War with Iran still hasn't started.  

    Obamacare is upheld by the SCOTUS. Time for some Kossacks to eat a plate of crow.

    by kefauver on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 02:32:28 PM PDT

    •  Short-sightedness is not an excuse. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      poligirl, priceman, Words In Action
    •  Did anyone ever eat that crow? (5+ / 0-)

      Or did they just take their ball and go to their own square?

      Note to self, stop before I emulate the habits described in this diary.

      by Rustbelt Dem on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 04:29:40 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  There was never any crow to eat (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Rustbelt Dem, Words In Action

        I said "likely."

        like·ly  (lkl)
        adj. like·li·er, like·li·est
        1. Possessing or displaying the qualities or characteristics that make something probable: They are likely to become angry with him.
        2. Within the realm of credibility; plausible: not a very likely excuse.
        3. Apparently appropriate or suitable: There were several likely candidates for the job.
        4. Apt to achieve success or yield a desired outcome; promising: a likely topic for investigation.
        5. Attractive; pleasant: found a likely spot under a shady tree for the picnic.
        adv. Usage Problem
        Probably.
        Not definitely.
        def·i·nite  (df-nt)
        adj.
        1. Having distinct limits: definite restrictions on the sale of alcohol.
        2. Indisputable; certain: a definite victory.
        3. Clearly defined; explicitly precise: a definite statement of the terms of the will. See Synonyms at explicit.
        4. Grammar Limiting or particularizing.
        5. Botany
        a. Of a specified number not exceeding 20, as certain floral organs, especially stamens.
        b. Cymose; determinate.
        There, now you know how to read words like kefauver.

        Now apologize for being wrong about extending the Bush tax cuts and the debt ceiling which I predicted.

        Eat that crow.

        ‎A) "Bipartisan usually means that a larger-than-usual deception is being carried out." - George Carlin B) "The administration should be worried about the level of despair here." ~Markos Moulitsas at NN12

        by priceman on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 08:19:35 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  By the way (4+ / 0-)

      Some more predictions that didn't come to pass, somehow it seems fitting here:

      Note to self, stop before I emulate the habits described in this diary.

      by Rustbelt Dem on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 05:10:05 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  BS. You don't know how to read diaries (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Words In Action

      If you did, you would know that I didn't say it was going down for sure, I said it was likely going down in the body of the diary, but no one could have predicted Roberts would switch his vote, not even your hero in the White House.

      People that couldn't see the Bush tax cut sellout would lead to the debt ceiling debacle which I did predict, don't get to lecture about anything. I never predicted what is called a double dip recession or that Giethner would be indicted.

      I did predict that the mortgage task force would be a failure and it is.

      Nancy Pelosi is Resurrecting the idea of Simpson Bowles.

      Sycophant fanboys with no hindsight don't get to decide who has credibility or not.

      ‎A) "Bipartisan usually means that a larger-than-usual deception is being carried out." - George Carlin B) "The administration should be worried about the level of despair here." ~Markos Moulitsas at NN12

      by priceman on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 08:12:24 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Oh, Christ. (6+ / 0-)

    Yes, I call myself a Democrat. I agree that we need to focus a lot more than we do on poverty and those trapped by it. No question; it should be right up there with equality, the environment, the economy on a macro level, national security, you name it.

    But I get fucking pissed off when a bunch of pixels with no fucking clue about anything gets on a fucking soap box and wails how he has The Only Acceptable Progressive Theory of Everything™, and the rest of us lame-ass peons just aren't good enough to grasp it, so we can't call ourselves whatever the fuck we want.

    Fuck me, it's a leprechaun.

    by MBNYC on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 03:19:16 PM PDT

    •  You can get upset at historical facts (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Words In Action

      but there is one Democratic Party Platform and i deifned what went into it historically and we know who was right on the economy which is measured by data and cause and effect reality.

      But I get fucking pissed off when a bunch of pixels with no fucking clue about anything gets on a fucking soap box and wails how he has The Only Acceptable Progressive Theory of Everything™, and the rest of us lame-ass peons just aren't good enough to grasp it, so we can't call ourselves whatever the fuck we want.
      Like getting upset and saying I have no clue about anything while lazily not referencing anything to debate. It really says more about you than me.

      ‎A) "Bipartisan usually means that a larger-than-usual deception is being carried out." - George Carlin B) "The administration should be worried about the level of despair here." ~Markos Moulitsas at NN12

      by priceman on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 08:22:43 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  That's so cute. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Deep Texan, Rustbelt Dem

        Sorry, I really am not nearly as bright as you must be; I hadn't considered that

        unenlightened herd mentality
        was actually an invitation to debate stuff. And I here I thought it was just fatuous, leftier-than-thou tripe. How precious.

        Here's a free tip: if you really want a debate, start by respecting your audience. Not with some pitchy whine that only serves to reinforce your own martyr complex.

        Fuck me, it's a leprechaun.

        by MBNYC on Fri Sep 14, 2012 at 03:40:21 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  You ask a question in your diary's title (4+ / 0-)
    Real Democrats, if any exist anymore,
    and then answer it in your second sentence!

    The knives come out after the election.  Then we'll see whether "real Democrats" still have a place in the Party.

  •  The only correct answer to the title of your diary (4+ / 0-)

    is "absolutely not".  

    Shirley Chisholm was right. Our Republic is in deep trouble.

    by Big River Bandido on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 03:58:17 PM PDT

  •  Ah, classic NOTV. (6+ / 0-)

    Also, did I fall asleep and wake up in 2015?  Since when has Hillary announced her alleged campaign?  What on earth does that have to do with anything?

    This is a very strange diary and I hope you'll give serious thought as to whether your diaries that lash out at numerous Democratic constituencies have any purpose, what that purpose is, if any, and whether or not throwing dishes in all directions is a way to further that purpose.

    "The first drawback of anger is that it destroys your inner peace; the second is that it distorts your view of reality. If you come to understand that anger is really unhelpful, you can begin to distance yourself from anger." - The Dalai Lama

    by auron renouille on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 06:21:09 PM PDT

    •  You must be tired (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Words In Action

      because if you think me referencing Molly Ivins post was about making a point on Hillary herself, than you, like many, actually do have a problem with reading comprehension. I'm not saying that to be mean, but truly if that is what you think than you do need to work on your context clues and think before typing.

      This diary is to remind people of the Democratic party's past and soul.

      ‎A) "Bipartisan usually means that a larger-than-usual deception is being carried out." - George Carlin B) "The administration should be worried about the level of despair here." ~Markos Moulitsas at NN12

      by priceman on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 08:28:31 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  "Past and soul" (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        auron renouille, Deep Texan

        James Eastland
        Theodore Bilbo
        Bull Connor
        George Wallace
        Richard J. Daley
        Lester Maddox
        Frank Rizzo
        Sam Nunn
        Zell Miller

        Personally, I never want to return to those days.  

        Note to self, stop before I emulate the habits described in this diary.

        by Rustbelt Dem on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 08:49:34 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  How insulting and obtuse (0+ / 0-)

          to put George Wallace in there who was only briefly a Democrat as well as the Dixiecrat coalition which is not what i meant at all and most of the turned into modern day Republicans. Don't waste my time. The fact that you don't know this means you need to study more.

          The New Deal, the fair Deal, and the Great Society, and the Civil Rights Acts(what most of those people opposed) is what I hark back to. Also read the Humphrey piece.

          The fact that you would go there means I have zero respect for any other historical references you claimed to understand in this diary.

          ‎A) "Bipartisan usually means that a larger-than-usual deception is being carried out." - George Carlin B) "The administration should be worried about the level of despair here." ~Markos Moulitsas at NN12

          by priceman on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 09:12:45 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Umm (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            auron renouille, Deep Texan

            You mean the George Wallace who was the Democratic nominee for Governor of Alabama in 1962, 1970, 1974, and 1982, having failed in the Democratic primary in 1958?  The George Wallace who ran for President as a Democrat in 1972 and 1976, being a delegate at the 1948 Democratic Convention? Surprisingly he didn't join Thurmond's Dixiecrats and campaigned for Truman, something he repudiated later when he was the most famous bigot in the country.  (FWIW, the purists of the day worked for Henry Wallace's campaign.)  

            The point is that the center of gravity in the Democratic Party, in its entirety, has never been more to the left than it is right now.  The rose colored past of Mario Cuomo's speech that you idolize? Do you realize that he was talking to an audience that had Richard Shelby and and John Stennis in it?  I see the repudiation of that past as progress.  When it comes to the the history of the Democratic Party, you frankly appear to be ignorant or willfully obtuse.  I don't care to discern the difference.  

            Note to self, stop before I emulate the habits described in this diary.

            by Rustbelt Dem on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 09:30:57 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  The most influential loser from Alabama... (0+ / 0-)

              according to biographers Dan T. Carter and Stephan Lesher. Not exactly the bastion of liberalism or what represents the what we know as Democratic party back(when the New Deal and executive order 8802 was a reality despite having to deal with Dixecrats) then or today. He never supported Truman's fair deal which led Dixiecrats to start leaving the party(all gone by the time the civil rights acts were a reality) an he did become one of the biggest bigots in the country when he left the party. However Wallace ran as an Independent in 1968. oops. Before that he stood against JFK's integration orders. It was later disclosed that Wallace proposed at the meeting with Martin to switch parties if he could be named as Goldwater's running-mate in 1964. he was well gone before being technically gone. It's not a smart comparison at all to the New Deal Great Society civil rights Democratic party I'm referring to.

              No the Democratic party has moved to the right economically and on labor issues. Do you realize it was the Democratic party that passed welfare reform and DOMA? By some metrics even the Republican party has moved to the left on civil rights which housed many Dixiecrats who left the Democratic party over the fair deal and LBJ pushing for the civil rights acts. The African American community has been sold out and hurt the most by the neoliberlaism espoused by the politicians you make excuses for, but at least now I know what you mean by the left. Yeah, technically Senator Byrd was in Obama's Democratic party even though he changed, but I guess by technicality that makes Obama in a bigoted party as well.

              the past I idolize in Mario Cuomo's speech was a party that cared about people and not all about Wall St like the president you make excuses for. there are still conservative Democrats to this day in the Senate and House every time Obama makes a speech. The rubric you used is an obtuse one and the context form which you refer to it is badly misused to pretend this modern third way Democratic party is to the left. The housing crisis you ignore spells this out.

              ‎A) "Bipartisan usually means that a larger-than-usual deception is being carried out." - George Carlin B) "The administration should be worried about the level of despair here." ~Markos Moulitsas at NN12

              by priceman on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 10:10:39 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  No, this diary is an attempt to NOTV. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Rustbelt Dem, Deep Texan

        And I'm sure as the election approaches, you will post even more of these diaries in an attempt to drive down progressives' support of the President.  Maybe, if we're lucky, the Jill Stein links will come out a week or so before the election.

        Rustbelt is right.  We have successfully moved the party to the left.  We're past Clinton having to declare "the end of welfare as we know it."  But if you want to go back to those days, or to the George Wallace days, then you aren't a Democrat, you're an unreformed Dixiecrat.  If your goal is to drive a policy change that you deeply care about, this long-winded, rambling diary won't do it because you haven't articulated a coherent policy.

        And if your goal is to gin up opposition to Obama in hopes of getting 1% or 2% of the vote to shift from Obama to Stein or any of the other spoiler candidates, I hope you show your true colors sooner rather than later.  Will make life easier.

        By the way, Carter's downfall was the hostage crisis and his failed response.  The economy and his policy failures didn't help and probably set him off on the wrong road, but the idea that our diplomats were held hostage and the Carter administration was walking around with their thumbs up their asses was too much, allowing Reagan's warmongering rhetoric to become credible in the face of Carter's ineffectual response and failed rescue operation.  They didn't vote for Reagan because they wanted single payer, they voted for Reagan because most Americans felt like the Iranians and others were walking on our faces.

        Out of curiosity, who are you supporting in the fall?  And not just for President, but for down-ballot races?

        "The first drawback of anger is that it destroys your inner peace; the second is that it distorts your view of reality. If you come to understand that anger is really unhelpful, you can begin to distance yourself from anger." - The Dalai Lama

        by auron renouille on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 10:26:40 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Wrong on all accounts (0+ / 1-)
          Recommended by:
          Hidden by:
          PsychoSavannah
          Rustbelt is right.  We have successfully moved the party to the left.  We're past Clinton having to declare "the end of welfare as we know it."  But if you want to go back to those days, or to the George Wallace days, then you aren't a Democrat, you're an unreformed Dixiecrat.  If your goal is to drive a policy change that you deeply care about, this long-winded, rambling diary won't do it because you haven't articulated a coherent policy.
          The George Wallace reference is one big fail and I'm no Dixecrat in any way shape or form just because you fail to put them in proper context with today's parties like RD. I'm all about LBJ and kicking Dixecrats out of the party. I'm all about arm twisting. I'm all about real progress instead of dressing up failure as progress. Maybe you're Pro Wall St and wish black people were sold as slaves on the market securitized(thre was some truth to Biden's statement) since you don't give a fuck about their plight and the foreclosure crisis? Maybe you like Jim Crow because you support the new Jim Crow as private prison lobbyists are in Obama's Justice department, but you don't even have the intellectual curiosity to know that. You see that? Two can play at that game of grasping straws. Don't ever try to come at me with that BS ever again. That's for starters.

          And second of all, why is Obama out there promising he didn't get rid of the welfare to work requirement if he's so over welfare reform? that's a supposed big deal that we know that. the whole referencing old racist Democrats, many who have switched to Republicans was a desperate straw RD tried and ultimately failed at as I have shown above to portray the ideas that have raped Latin America as "the left." Maybe you don't care about Latinos tortured.

          By the way, Carter's downfall was the hostage crisis and his failed response.  The economy and his policy failures didn't help and probably set him off on the wrong road, but the idea that our diplomats were held hostage and the Carter administration was walking around with their thumbs up their asses was too much, allowing Reagan's warmongering rhetoric to become credible in the face of Carter's ineffectual response and failed rescue operation.  They didn't vote for Reagan because they wanted single payer, they voted for Reagan because most Americans felt like the Iranians and others were walking on our faces.
          Absolutely wrong. That was a part of it, but ti was the economy mostly exactly as I have laid like Rick Perlstein and James Galbraith who was there with Hubert Humphrey.

          And third of all, it's none of your god damned business.

          ‎A) "Bipartisan usually means that a larger-than-usual deception is being carried out." - George Carlin B) "The administration should be worried about the level of despair here." ~Markos Moulitsas at NN12

          by priceman on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 10:48:29 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  You have an agenda. (0+ / 0-)

            And I don't think it's to get Democrats elected.  It's certainly not to effect policy change, not when all of your stink bombs appear to be calibrated to alienate potential allies.

            Maybe you're Pro Wall St and wish black people were sold as slaves on the market securitized(thre was some truth to Biden's statement) since you don't give a fuck about their plight and the foreclosure crisis? Maybe you like Jim Crow because you support the new Jim Crow as private prison lobbyists are in Obama's Justice department, but you don't even have the intellectual curiosity to know that. You see that? Two can play at that game of grasping straws. Don't ever try to come at me with that BS ever again. That's for starters.
            You are a disgusting person.  Even if that was meant as snark or some sort of witty comeback, you are simply a disgusting person.  I'm sorry that I lowered myself to a point where a debate with you could be attempted.

            I do hope the sewers that you regularly thrash about within are pleasant for you, because they sure aren't very pleasant to the rest of us.  Goodnight.

            "The first drawback of anger is that it destroys your inner peace; the second is that it distorts your view of reality. If you come to understand that anger is really unhelpful, you can begin to distance yourself from anger." - The Dalai Lama

            by auron renouille on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 11:01:47 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  That section is disgusting (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              auron renouille, Deep Texan

              And I would HR if I followed the Bobswern rules. But I follow the Daily Kos rules and have to acknowledge that we are in a "conversation"

              Note to self, stop before I emulate the habits described in this diary.

              by Rustbelt Dem on Fri Sep 14, 2012 at 04:26:56 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  No, equating others with Dixiecrats is disgusting (0+ / 0-)

                That's why I reacted that way, but I was just playing the sick game that was put onto me by auron renouille.

                My shit's well documented though. Obama loves the drug war and has private prison advocates in his DOJ. This disproportionally affects the African American Community. That part wasn't really even hyperbole. I have background on that like everything in this diary.

                I don't show up and troll your comments and diaries because you don't interest me. But you obviously have nothing better to do.

                ‎A) "Bipartisan usually means that a larger-than-usual deception is being carried out." - George Carlin B) "The administration should be worried about the level of despair here." ~Markos Moulitsas at NN12

                by priceman on Fri Sep 14, 2012 at 04:57:21 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  But, (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              auron renouille, Deep Texan

              It's best to just recognize what agenda people have, then not engage. First the hailing of a dangerous authoritarian with an contempt for constitutional governance such as Huey Long as some sort of progressive hero, then this kind of revisionist fictional Democratic party that is just as real as the GOP golden age of the 1950s (it was golden only if you were some strains of white).

              By the way priceman, I won't speak for African Americans but I'm willing to bet that you don't have the goodwill to say things that Joe Biden can.

              Note to self, stop before I emulate the habits described in this diary.

              by Rustbelt Dem on Fri Sep 14, 2012 at 04:39:55 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  My agenda is for the unemployed (0+ / 0-)

                Maybe you should have lost all your money(no FDIC). That's oen way to stick it to Huey. Maybe the New Deal should have never happened(and it would have been weaker had it nto have been for Huey Long) and a significant portion of the African American population should have starved to death in your skewed version of history because FDR had to deal with Dixecrats on every committee in Congress and he should have never adopted any ideas from the Union ticket if you even know what I'm talking about. I'm pretty sure you don't, though..

                Maybe you need to study how WWII veterans benefits were not cut because he marched them to capitol hill to confront FDR. pehrpas you wuish they were liek you wish SS never came into the debate fomr Dr. pete Towsned which you obviously have no fucking idea about. klol. Spare me your skewed evrsion of history.

                You fail to mention (not a dime's worth of difference between Dems and Repubs) Wallace went against an icon of the Democratic party via JFK while hoping that bringing his name up along with other Dixiecrats that Truman starting out pissing off and then LBJ made leave the party with the civil rights acts while never answering how I took on your argument with ease. It was a weak argument you were pressing on and still are; history is full of nuance. The New Deal defined the Democratic Party Platform built on by the Fair Deal and the Great Society.

                If you hate the great Society, just refuse medicare. there's nothing revisionist at all about what i said. I take history into account with nuance. Wall St was taken on by FDR like Standard Oil and its abuses and other monopolies were taken on by Huey Long in LA despite unconventional political maneuvering, but because you read something somewhere about Long being Hitler doesn't make it some profound argument.

                I'm glad someone was there to pressure FDR and turn him into the 1936 landslide candidate he turned out to be. You think ignoring the foreclosure crisis and the history of the great Depression and the correct answers to it and banking regulation because you wrongly perceive Obama as making the Democratic party "more left" even with Republican ideas form 1994 as HCR and John McCain's drill baby drill in action. The Conservadems pretty much dictate what happens most in Congress and it hurts minority communities, but you pretend it's not happening and you think you deserve some kind of medal for poor agumentum and name dropping from the past. Well you don't. You lack nuance and critical thinking, and I don't give a damn what you think of me or what my agenda is.

                Now why don't you get lost.

                ‎A) "Bipartisan usually means that a larger-than-usual deception is being carried out." - George Carlin B) "The administration should be worried about the level of despair here." ~Markos Moulitsas at NN12

                by priceman on Fri Sep 14, 2012 at 05:12:48 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  HR fo this: (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Rustbelt Dem, Deep Texan
            Maybe you're Pro Wall St and wish black people were sold as slaves on the market securitized(thre was some truth to Biden's statement) since you don't give a fuck about their plight and the foreclosure crisis? Maybe you like Jim Crow because you support the new Jim Crow as private prison lobbyists are in Obama's Justice department, but you don't even have the intellectual curiosity to know that.

            David Koch is Longshanks, and Occupy is the real Braveheart.

            by PsychoSavannah on Fri Sep 14, 2012 at 06:21:59 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  In response to being equated with a Dixiecrat (0+ / 0-)

              And it was hyperbole in response to that disgusting insinuation. This was obvious.

              You see that? Two can play at that game of grasping straws.
              But whatever. Do what you want.

              ‎A) "Bipartisan usually means that a larger-than-usual deception is being carried out." - George Carlin B) "The administration should be worried about the level of despair here." ~Markos Moulitsas at NN12

              by priceman on Fri Sep 14, 2012 at 06:31:14 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  PS, just walk away (0+ / 0-)

              Priceman is discrediting himself with his words, no need for anyone to be dragged along with it.

              Note to self, stop before I emulate the habits described in this diary.

              by Rustbelt Dem on Fri Sep 14, 2012 at 06:49:53 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

  •  Sorry, lost me in the first sentence, which (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Deep Texan

    was a circular firing squad message. Nothing better to talk about? Really??

    I guess I'm not supposed to HR it, so I won't. But it's garbage.

  •  holy strawman fail (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Dr Squid

    very trollish imo

    hide rated.

    -You want to change the system, run for office.

    by Deep Texan on Fri Sep 14, 2012 at 07:04:57 AM PDT

  •  It doesn't matter (0+ / 0-)

    There is no Simpson-Bowles. It's dead.

    Way to stir up a shitstorm by peeling off the skin of a dead horse. Enjoy your donut for intentionally causing a pie fight.

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