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Originally posted to Occupy Wall Street on Mon Sep 17, 2012 at 04:59 AM PDT.

Also republished by Anonymous Dkos and Inherent Human Rights.

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Comment Preferences

  •  #OpCopWatch (17+ / 0-)

    #OpCopWatch Engaged
    @OpCopWatch Engaged
    OpCopWatch at gmail dot com Engaged
    #OpCopWatch irc channel Engaged
    http://opcopwatch.webs.com Engaged
    YouTube: OpCopWatch Engaged


    "When the powerless are shut out of the media, we will make the media irrelevant" ~♥~ Anonymous ~♥~

    by Lisa Lockwood on Mon Sep 17, 2012 at 05:31:52 AM PDT

    •  Republished and shared (8+ / 0-)

      Thanks, Boothie


      "When the powerless are shut out of the media, we will make the media irrelevant" ~♥~ Anonymous ~♥~

      by Lisa Lockwood on Mon Sep 17, 2012 at 05:32:59 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Just my opinion, but that mask as a symbol (7+ / 0-)

      of OWS doesn't do OWS any favors. Masks and especially the bandanas across the lower face, whether OWS likes it or not, project an image of criminal intent. Since OWS is still not understood by many Americans it seems that conjuring images of wild west bank robbers and a man who blew up Parlainment, in a movie anyway, makes for a negative if not frightening impression.

       

      Ds see human suffering and wonder what they can do to relieve it. Rs see human suffering and wonder how they can profit from it.

      by JTinDC on Mon Sep 17, 2012 at 06:03:32 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Your Concern IS Duly Noted. (24+ / 0-)

        Can't be truncating one's plans and desires because some people just won't understand. Activism HAS to go forth.

        The Fawkes masks are symbols of rebellion. Many people know this and that's why they have been popular. And why NO BANKS HAVE BEEN ROBBED during #OWS activities.

        I must call to your attention your idea that

        Masks and especially the bandanas across the lower face, whether OWS likes it or not, project an image of criminal intent.
        Masks and hiding the face are about NOT BEING ARRESTED WHILE PEOPLE EXERCISE THEIR GODDAMMNED RIGHTS without having to be photographed and sorted with face recognition software or be singled out.

        The criminal intent is on part of the government. That's what the protests are about.

        Please try to get this organized correctly so you can tell which end is up.

        thanks.

        The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men.

        by xxdr zombiexx on Mon Sep 17, 2012 at 06:25:26 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Bingo n/t (10+ / 0-)


          "When the powerless are shut out of the media, we will make the media irrelevant" ~♥~ Anonymous ~♥~

          by Lisa Lockwood on Mon Sep 17, 2012 at 06:27:54 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  You are ignoring the thrust of (10+ / 0-)

          what the commenter said. It doesn't matter what the real meaning is of the Guy Fawkes masks. What the commenter is saying is that for the typical American, who hasn't the movie, masks are a sure sign of danger and lawlessness. PR matters, especially in a movement that is trying to capture the hearts of the populace. To be so dismissive of the importance of perception does a disservice to the movement.

          •  Thanks doc2. (5+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            doc2, IndieGuy, VClib, ShoshannaD, erush1345

            Ds see human suffering and wonder what they can do to relieve it. Rs see human suffering and wonder how they can profit from it.

            by JTinDC on Mon Sep 17, 2012 at 06:51:12 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I can't put my finger on why (6+ / 0-)

              it is that even respectful, constructive feedback is unwelcome in the OWS sphere. It's not like the movement has had a perfect history. You'd think that the response to such advice would at least focus on the merits of your argument. The whole friggin' point of civil disobedience is to get people on your side, right?

              •  No, actually the whole friggin' point (9+ / 0-)

                of civil disobedience is to call attention to injustice. The point is not to be pretty and safe, it is to be seen and heard. The point is to focus attention and raise awareness, not make nice and get along.
                The point is to be a thorn in the side, a nail that won't hammer down, a march to Selma, and a boil that will not lance.
                The point is to make authority act in such a way that by their very actions and reactions they make plain to all the fact that civil disobedience is now a necessity.

                It is a tool to gather notice, and when that notice is gained, authority must then choose to show itself in all its naked brute force, or become amenable to change, because the whole world is watching.


                "When the powerless are shut out of the media, we will make the media irrelevant" ~♥~ Anonymous ~♥~

                by Lisa Lockwood on Mon Sep 17, 2012 at 07:16:14 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Your comment doesn't delineate (6+ / 0-)

                  between being noticed and sympathized with by the populace, or being noticed and feared by the populace. Being noticed and feared is not a recipe for success if you seek change in a democracy.

                  •  The message is the protests. (4+ / 0-)

                    Do you understand that?

                    We have been parsing this with you for a year now. I'm truly amazed a Kossack would take so long to understand a concept like civil disobedience.

                    Perhaps you could read some Gandhi to help you along and it will help us relate what you read there directly to Occupy.

                    Do you think that might work?

                    Education is a progressive discovery of our own ignorance.

                    by Horace Boothroyd III on Mon Sep 17, 2012 at 07:35:35 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  You seem to think you know it all. (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      ShoshannaD, erush1345

                      No discussion needed here, other than 100% support for every tactic deployed by these protesters. I suspect your attitude is shared by many of those in the OWS movement itself, because they do seem tone deaf to public opinion. Thank goodness the civil rights leaders in the 60s weren't so cocky.

                      •  There is a reason you think that. (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        shaharazade
                        You seem to think you know it all.
                        The same reason I don't think that. So your personal attack is noted.

                        Apparently we should start with reading comprehension instead of Gandhi.

                        No discussion needed here, other than 100% support for every tactic deployed by these protesters
                        Let me try again:
                        Perhaps you could read some Gandhi to help you along and it will help us relate what you read there directly to Occupy.
                        What that means is we will both read the same book at the same time and I can make a comparison between events in the book and what happens with Occupy.

                        It will be fun!

                        Education is a progressive discovery of our own ignorance.

                        by Horace Boothroyd III on Mon Sep 17, 2012 at 08:05:29 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  The problem is that you've consistently (3+ / 0-)

                        ignored the reasons given for why people wear masks at these sorts of things.  There have in fact been people fired for participating, and we know that the FBI and other organizations are watching people.  Your critique completely ignores these facts.  Let's not pretend like not wearing masks would cause some sudden outpouring of support from folks like you.  You wouldn't suddenly hop on board to join the protests.  I suspect your attitude in this is shared by most people still complaining about masks.

                        The revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

                        by AoT on Mon Sep 17, 2012 at 08:59:48 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                    •  I am confused (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      VClib, JTinDC, erush1345

                      at what point did Gandhi endorse Guy Fawkes masks or any disguise, and what in his writing makes one think he would feel that modern surveillance would justify disguises?

                      He wasn't afraid of dying, let alone being arrested.  He asked people to walk peacably into swinging batons and be struck down endlessly. I admit to not being a up on how Gandhi applies in the tecnology agecivil disobedience .  In the old days, it was all about being seen, abused, arrested, etc. to raise public awareness of injustice.

                      •  Ghandi was (2+ / 0-)

                        a professional protester with a lot of support. A lot of these people have day jobs they'd rather not lose because that's all they've got. Ghandi's people didn't have to put up with face recognition software.

                        "There's a crack in everything; that's how the light gets in". Leonard Cohen

                        by northsylvania on Mon Sep 17, 2012 at 10:08:11 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  So it is all about dissing Gandhi (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          northsylvania

                          as a professional who didn't need to worry about losing his day job.   And we somehow contort that into Gandhi supports masks.  Except for the NOT part?

                          Gandhi's people didn't worry about face recognition software because they ( he British) killed or jailed them pretty promptly. EIghty thousand in the Salt Marsh marches alone.  Gandhi started out a lawyer and was jailed many times.   Kind of how you end up a professional protester.  Going to jail does end your day job.  I can sympathize with that.

                          But civil disobedience is breaking the law.  In fact that is how and what it is about, breaking the unjust law to force what one hopes is a moral society to change the law.    Wearing masks makes economic sense, but it is self serving in that it is aimed at defeating the lawbreaking/consequences part of civil disobedience.

                          What made Gandhi, Nelson Mandela and Martin Luther King, Jr. successful was that large numbers of  people were willing to take enormous risks, not just with their day jobs, but with their lives.

                          •  Do have any links to support that? (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            shaharazade, glitterscale
                            So it is all about dissing Gandhi
                            Or is it your own fevered imagination.

                            Come on. You are in my diary and I love good debate based on supportable facts but you seem to be trying to take the easy way out with a strawman. That won't fly with me. If you do not have a PhD or that level of discourse, (My formal education is limited), perhaps you should find another diarist to debate.  Also Did Gandhi take a vow of poverty before becoming an activist? He had separated himself from corporeal concerns so he had no need for a mask. Gandhi was also intelligent enough to know if police ninjas were going to kick his door in two years and eleven months after he marched because they got a still of him outside the crosswalk lines on a sidewalk march he too would cover his face from the camera.

                            As to your last paragraph. Ask Scott Olsen how he might think of what you just said. And, when I myself go to photograph or livestream OPDX I am also risking my life. As a Transgender man if I am arrested being beaten and raped while in police custody is the norm not the exception. Either of those can erase the flame of existence just as well as a projectile fired point blank into a skull.

                            Education is a progressive discovery of our own ignorance.

                            by Horace Boothroyd III on Mon Sep 17, 2012 at 05:12:01 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You made a rude (0+ / 0-)

                            and condescending comment to another poster about read Gandhi.

                            I haven't read every word he said, you indicated his words would be in support of your words.  I called.   You still haven't.

                            When you want a discussion instead of telling people how wrong they are, that you do know more, than fail to put up the supposed proof, then maybe you will get a discussion.

                            That there is a serious problem with the current police state is not the issue I disputed.    I disputed your very specific claim about Gandhi.

                            I am still waiting to hear what Gandhi said that supports you.

                          •  Rude? (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            glitterscale

                            I was trying to think of ways we could help the commenter finally understand after an entire year of not grasping the concept of civil disobedience and you think I was rude?

                            I thought it was not only a clever way to relate what I'm trying to explain. But it would be a fun series of diaries to compare and contrast the different methodologies used in different situations.

                            But you think that is rude.

                            Education is a progressive discovery of our own ignorance.

                            by Horace Boothroyd III on Tue Sep 18, 2012 at 06:35:48 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  There has been no rudeness here regarding (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Horace Boothroyd III

                            Gandhi. People on this thread are very appreciative of the way he used various tactics to get his people freed from oppression. To find his people livelihoods and have a sustainable community. Gandhi knew the people from which he was wresting power. He used tactics appropriate to that task. We are confronting, not Englishmen pushed onto a foreign soil, but our own supposedly committed police organizations who are supposed to support our cause by upholding our own constitution. Instead of those folks who should be on our side, we have police organizations who are funded by the 1%. We have police forces whose equipment is augmented by Homeland Security And whose mindsets are trained with military tactics and not as peace keepers. Homeland Security is very interested in anybody that it might identify as a leader. It wants to "neutralize" leaders. Its mission is all about oppression rather than support.

                            Gandhi confronted the military true, but nothing like these phalanxes of riot geared, military style maneuvers. We have to have tactics that deal with the reality on the ground. Reality is that we have some people who have jobs and want to keep those jobs. We have people who are paranoid when dealing with a paranoid society at large as well. Reality is that Homeland Security wants to know who we are and wants to arrest us all period. And that is just plain un American.

                            And bear in mind too, that we have to get past the gate keepers in the media. The same media who hasn't done reporting of the past weekend other than to affirm to themselves "Occupy is dead!"

                            American Television is a vast sea of stupid. -xxdr zombiexx

                            by glitterscale on Tue Sep 18, 2012 at 09:23:13 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  again a tangent (0+ / 0-)

                            the assertion was made that reading Gandhi would justify the masks.   I am seeing nothing about what Gandhi wrote.

                            I personally think that OWS is taking enormous risks, that people are in jeopardy.   That technology has changed.

                            But more people were dead in India than in the US so far.  The technology is formidable and it is dangerous.  But dead is simply dead,  people died from simple guns and batons.

                            And no one threatened the British troops, they may not have had riot gear, but they were never in any danger in any event from Gandhi's followers.

                            So perhaps an appeal to authority of Gandhi, which apparently was hollow, was used to indicate the other person just didn't understand what Gandhi had advocated.

                            Another person suggested Gandhi had nothing to lose because he was a professional protester.  He started out as a family man with a job.  He took the violence, the jail terms, the loss of employment, etc. that went with his cause.  How is he lesser because he became the spiritual father of civil disobedience as he was forced by his conscience and circumstances into a 'professional protester' .  How does it really make the risks that he and his followers took, many of whom were jailed, thousands of whom died, lesser than today's risks?  The risks are real.  The costs are real. But I don't see appealing to Gandhi as an authority figure in support of wearing masks, without providing some proof.  I asked, it remains unanswered.

                  •  No, my comment addresses (5+ / 0-)

                    this statement:

                    The whole friggin' point of civil disobedience is to get people on your side, right?
                    That is not the 'point' of civil disobedience, and that is what I addressed.


                    "When the powerless are shut out of the media, we will make the media irrelevant" ~♥~ Anonymous ~♥~

                    by Lisa Lockwood on Mon Sep 17, 2012 at 07:42:27 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

              •  'Please and thank you' did NOT keep us from (0+ / 0-)

                getting fucked blind by corporations you probably think we should trust.

                Politeness has totally run its course and will NOT be delivering the goods.

                Do not ask for what you cannot take.

                The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men.

                by xxdr zombiexx on Mon Sep 17, 2012 at 11:31:27 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Feedback that is erroneous is useless. (0+ / 0-)

                The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men.

                by xxdr zombiexx on Mon Sep 17, 2012 at 11:35:59 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  You are ignoring the thrust of what I said (3+ / 0-)

            I was saying the concern is erroneous.

            I am saying it is not the problem the commenter is trying to suggest that it is.

            That commenter is arguing for watering down a movement because many Americans are too stupid to think for themselves, which is what sort of got us into this position.

            I for one think OWS is handling it JUST FINE.

            I am unsure, though, how they have gotten so for ignoring all this super-high-quality, invaluable advise as to how to do it better.

            Alice Cooper shouldn't have used all that makeup.

            Kiss uses too much glitter: that's going to turn people off.

            A cartoon about a mouse? That's not going anywhere.

            A toy girl named "Barbie" who owns everything? What kind of toy flop is that going to be?

            No, Mr Columbus, there is no land out there.

            The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men.

            by xxdr zombiexx on Mon Sep 17, 2012 at 11:29:56 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  JT, opinion duly noted. Question, (4+ / 0-)

        did you watch? Content really matters, not just appearance.


        "When the powerless are shut out of the media, we will make the media irrelevant" ~♥~ Anonymous ~♥~

        by Lisa Lockwood on Mon Sep 17, 2012 at 06:29:52 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Yes, and of course content matters. But people, (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          IndieGuy, VClib, gramofsam1, ShoshannaD

          right or wrong, mostly wrong, do form opinions based on appearances and content never considered as a result.

          It's interesting tho that even the slightest criticism of OWS is as intolerable by some, not you in this instance, as the even slightest criticism of POB is alleged to be.

          I do appreciate your more measured reply as opposed to xxdr zombiexx's knee-jerk angry shouting and belittlement.

          Ds see human suffering and wonder what they can do to relieve it. Rs see human suffering and wonder how they can profit from it.

          by JTinDC on Mon Sep 17, 2012 at 06:49:50 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  JT, I too appreciate your reply, (9+ / 0-)

            but I consider the broader context, and I believe firmly that at this (late) stage, anyone who sympathizes with or in the least bit identifies with OWS understands the masks, and the reason FOR the masks.

            Consider, if you will, the earliest days of our own revolutionary forefathers. When they dumped tea into Boston harbor to protest taxation without representation, those early revolutionaries wore Indian paint, feathers and leather leggings to disguise themselves. Yet I can't imagine that anyone who felt Independence in their hearts believed them to be "native" Americans.


            "When the powerless are shut out of the media, we will make the media irrelevant" ~♥~ Anonymous ~♥~

            by Lisa Lockwood on Mon Sep 17, 2012 at 07:04:55 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  You may be right. (5+ / 0-)

              But isn't the point of further protesting to pick up MORE supporters?

              •  At this point its threadjacky bs to come in this (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                shaharazade

                breaking news diary and share your concerns and suggestions about the mask, but thanks for playing.

                How did Supreme Court decision ACA help the 23 million still uncovered? Ask the 18,000 Doctors of PNHP -- they're not waiting, FORWARD now to pass H.R. 676, the “Expanded and Improved Medicare for All Act .

                by divineorder on Mon Sep 17, 2012 at 07:50:44 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  One commenter shared his (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  JTinDC, gramofsam1, erush1345

                  concerns over the masks, and had his head chopped off. I'm trying to push back against that mentality. Clearly, to some any disagreement, no matter how respectful, is unwelcome "threadjacky bs". What is it about a healthy debate over tactics, amongst fellow liberals, that scares you so much?

                  •  Nah, you are trying to distract from the diary (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    shaharazade

                    as usual. Go write your own?

                    bout a healthy debate over tactics,

                    How did Supreme Court decision ACA help the 23 million still uncovered? Ask the 18,000 Doctors of PNHP -- they're not waiting, FORWARD now to pass H.R. 676, the “Expanded and Improved Medicare for All Act .

                    by divineorder on Mon Sep 17, 2012 at 08:12:15 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

              •  That can be part of the point of it (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                shaharazade, glitterscale

                But do you seriously think that not wearing masks is going to cause some sudden outpouring of protesters who weren't going out there before?  The fact of the matter is that the actions of the police have had a far, far larger affect on numbers than almost anything else.

                The revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

                by AoT on Mon Sep 17, 2012 at 09:05:25 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  It isn't that the "slightest" criticism is (3+ / 0-)

            intolerable.  It's that hearing the same things over and over from the same people gets old.  We've had a million discussions about the masks, even here at DailyKos.  There are real threats to some people if they are identified as being at these protests.  People have been fired and we know that the FBI and other agencies are keeping track of some people who have been a part of Occupy based on their participation.

            The revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

            by AoT on Mon Sep 17, 2012 at 09:03:13 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I've net been a part/aware of those discussions. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              erush1345, AoT

              But if concealing one's identity is genuinely the primary purpose, there are less provocative means of doing so. But that's the thing. OWS wants to be provocative, they want to poke people in the eye even if it means alienating those who might otherwise be inclined to support them if they were able to be just a tad less beligerant. There comes a point when it's reasonable to ask, does OWS want real change or do they just want to act out?

              Anyhow, had I been aware the mask thing had been discussed to the extent you say, I absolutely would not have commented on the subject. If I could retroactively hit cancel instead of post, I would.

              Ds see human suffering and wonder what they can do to relieve it. Rs see human suffering and wonder how they can profit from it.

              by JTinDC on Mon Sep 17, 2012 at 09:15:23 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  I doubt those (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        JTinDC, doc2, erush1345

        wearing the Guy Fawkes mask know who he was....or maybe they're Catholics?

        Obama 2012 http://whatthefuckhasobamadonesofar.com/

        by jiffypop on Mon Sep 17, 2012 at 06:59:18 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I suspect most do not know the Guy Fawkes (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Cedwyn, gramofsam1, erush1345

          story. I do know a lot of people saw the movie Vendetta and that being the connection with the masks there have to be people who think OWS would like to blow up the US Capitol. Tea bagger may be delighted at that thought, but most Americans might find that more than a bit extreme. And it doesn't matter that OWS doesn't have any intention to blow anything up, it's the perception based on a mask made recently popular by a movie where a guy does blow something up.

          Ds see human suffering and wonder what they can do to relieve it. Rs see human suffering and wonder how they can profit from it.

          by JTinDC on Mon Sep 17, 2012 at 07:11:40 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  I'm kinda unclear on why (6+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          JTinDC, kurious, Cedwyn, jfromga, VClib, erush1345

          Fawkes masks somehow are viewed as a symbol of peaceful protest. Guy Fawkes attempted to blow up the British Parliament and kill the entire government. He was a terrorist. I have to assume those wearing the mask know this.

      •  I tend to agree -- but it's not going to change (5+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        JTinDC, kurious, divineorder, dejavu, samanthab

        anytime soon, so you and I have to reconcile ourselves to it.

        I wish that we could come up with a better mask than Guy Fawkes, which just shouts out our national ignorance of British history.  Maybe the Ghostface mask from Scream?  But, again, it's not going to change, so defer for another day.

        Pro-Occupy Democratic Candidate for California State Senate, District 29 & Occupy OC Civic Liaison.

        "I love this goddamn country, and we're going to take it back." -- Saul Alinsky

        by Seneca Doane on Mon Sep 17, 2012 at 07:03:56 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Some kind of symbol that would draw people to (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          erush1345

          OWS seems to make more sense.

          Ds see human suffering and wonder what they can do to relieve it. Rs see human suffering and wonder how they can profit from it.

          by JTinDC on Mon Sep 17, 2012 at 07:16:18 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  If you can think of a good alternative (3+ / 0-)

            I would be on it in a second.  Especially if it was easy to spread.

            I think that one of the big things about the Fawkes mask is that people wearing it identify with the crowd at the end of the movie, not the violent protagonist.

            The revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

            by AoT on Mon Sep 17, 2012 at 09:08:15 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  "the crowd at the end of the movie" (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              AoT, Horace Boothroyd III

              Now that makes sense, a symbol of solidarity. Thanks for pointing that out.

              I don't know what a good alternative would be off the top of my head, but since you mentioned the mask as symbol of solidarity then perhaps that spirit itself can be captured in some alternative.

              Ds see human suffering and wonder what they can do to relieve it. Rs see human suffering and wonder how they can profit from it.

              by JTinDC on Mon Sep 17, 2012 at 09:21:50 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  Yeah, that ghostface mask (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          JTinDC

          wouldn't really improve things IMO. That one is even more frightening. If they are trying to say that they're peaceful, how about a mask of Desmond Tutu, or of a dove?

      •  Just my opiion but (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        JTinDC

        I have a  Guy Fawkes mask but decided not to use it in demonstrations for the same reason that the diarist brings up.

        Conservatives want to shrink the size of government until it will fit in a vagina.

        by rmonroe on Mon Sep 17, 2012 at 08:36:28 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Those white shirts need more exercise. (11+ / 0-)

    I'm reminded that when the police forces were integrated, it was argued that women could not meet the physical fitness standards. Now it looks like the men have succumbed to laziness.

    We organize governments to provide benefits and prevent abuse.

    by hannah on Mon Sep 17, 2012 at 05:32:45 AM PDT

  •  Thanks, Horace (19+ / 0-)

    for this diary and keeping us updated.

    "Who are these men who really run this land? And why do they run it with such a thoughtless hand? David Crosby.

    by allenjo on Mon Sep 17, 2012 at 05:43:10 AM PDT

  •  Thanks, am watching Timcast (10+ / 0-)

    right now.  Bishop George Packard who has been active in OWS was the bishop arrested.  This is not his first arrest.  It is good to see a man of the cloth involved in this movement.

    Earlier this morning, Tim interviewed Chris Hedges and it should be available for viewing in his recent archives.  It was a very interesting interview and I highly recommend it.  Here is the link to the Hedges interview which appears toward the end of the archived video.  It is actually two interviews. The first interview in the link is by a local reporter and was filmed by Tim. Then Tim himself interviewed Hedges on a different topic from the local reporter's interview.  Watch it all.  

    "Growing up is for those who don't have the guts not to. Grow wise, grow loving, grow compassionate, but why grow up?" - Fiddlegirl

    by gulfgal98 on Mon Sep 17, 2012 at 05:56:33 AM PDT

  •  March that picket line........ (6+ / 0-)

    Anne Feeney 3 "Have You Been To Jail For Justice?"

    "Who are these men who really run this land? And why do they run it with such a thoughtless hand? David Crosby.

    by allenjo on Mon Sep 17, 2012 at 06:00:01 AM PDT

  •  Have the gathering masses even done anything for (5+ / 0-)

    police to arrest them for? Or is this just an attempt to stamp out OWS before it regains a presence?

    Ds see human suffering and wonder what they can do to relieve it. Rs see human suffering and wonder how they can profit from it.

    by JTinDC on Mon Sep 17, 2012 at 06:08:23 AM PDT

    •  How are the arrests an attempt (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      johnny wurster, JTinDC

      to "stamp out" OWS? If they really wanted to stamp out the protests, they'd ignore them. The more people arrested in an act of civil disobedience, the more publicity generated and the more successful the protest is.

      •  True. If that's what the police want maybe (0+ / 0-)

        someone should let the police in on the flaw in their strategy.

        Ds see human suffering and wonder what they can do to relieve it. Rs see human suffering and wonder how they can profit from it.

        by JTinDC on Mon Sep 17, 2012 at 06:55:52 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  It's confusing, because clearly (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          JTinDC, gramofsam1

          it is in the movement's interest to have lots of people arrested. It's great publicity and shows they're striking a nerve (and it makes them more sympathetic). So the more devoted protesters show up with the intent of trying to get arrested. And yet all these diaries decry the arrests when they're made. Honestly, it's confusing - are we supposed to cheer the arrests, or bemoan them?

          •  I don't think the arrests help at this point (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            JTinDC

            they were fairly useful at the beginning but now it doesn't do much.  Certainly lots of people getting arrested turns off others because people are generally scared of getting arrested.

            The revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

            by AoT on Mon Sep 17, 2012 at 09:11:10 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  Given that one of the goals was to prevent (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      JTinDC, VClib, erush1345

      people from going to work by blocking streets and sidewalks, we shouldn't be surprised if the arrests were lawful and reasonable.

      •  Agreed (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        johnny wurster, erush1345

        Ds see human suffering and wonder what they can do to relieve it. Rs see human suffering and wonder how they can profit from it.

        by JTinDC on Mon Sep 17, 2012 at 07:32:26 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  As expected, our very own (4+ / 0-)

        cheerleader of authoritarian force arrives to voice his universal and enthusiastic approval of police arresting Americans exercising their first amendment rights.
        #yawn
        Happy Constitution Day, Occupy!


        "When the powerless are shut out of the media, we will make the media irrelevant" ~♥~ Anonymous ~♥~

        by Lisa Lockwood on Mon Sep 17, 2012 at 07:36:16 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I think what he's saying is that (4+ / 0-)

          they are not being arrested for exercising their rights. Nobody here is against the First Amendment, and it is pretty horrible IMO for you to suggest that. Let's face it, many of these protesters are actively trying to get arrested. They're yelling "Kettle the cops" while blocking streets and sidewalks, and when ordered to move they are holding their ground. That's not the First Amendment, and you know it.

          •  Yes, they are holding their ground. (4+ / 0-)

            I've never believed that 'free speech zones' are useful. They are an encroachment upon the people's rights to have their grievances heard.
            Just as those sitting at a diner's counter in Alabama to protest Jim Crow laws were in flagrant, purposeful civil disobedience and were arrested, so are those Occupiers who place their bodies in harms way acting to bring attention to economic injustice.

            Challenging authority when authority no longer responds to injustice by bankers as evenhandedly as it does to protesters is a means of calling attention to the disparity.


            "When the powerless are shut out of the media, we will make the media irrelevant" ~♥~ Anonymous ~♥~

            by Lisa Lockwood on Mon Sep 17, 2012 at 07:54:45 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Yeah, but sitting at a counter (4+ / 0-)

              is something people should be allowed to do. Thus, that protest evoked sympathetic thoughts in the masses, and produced change. Blocking traffic on a workday is just stupid.

              •  Oh yeah right! Keep believing that. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Horace Boothroyd III

                People who believed in the "segregation" of the races were not pleased and did not come all over themselves in compassion for those who doggedly came where they were obviously not wanted.

                People pushed into the counters in groups of other protesters so that they had their own supporters with them. And what they protested was exactly what they were demanding --- access to the lunch counters.

                People in NY are demanding access to the power brokers, they are demanding that the power brokers be held accountable.  They are holding signs that inform everyone of the injustice that they see going on. They are asking for the rest of the public to take notice that something is not right, injustice has been done. And the power brokers are not gonna jump in and sympathize, and the people depending upon the power brokers for their bread and butter are not gonna be SEEN jumping in. And the police, who are paid by the power brokers are gonna do what they are told, and try to be grateful for the extra overtime pay, and some of them will get off on leaving cuffs on for 9 hours, for banging some heads into whatever is available to bang them into. (And will probably be promoted for doing so!)

                The real question in my mind is why is there not 300 million folks in the streets with them? It is not as if the injustice isn't there. It isn't as if, we the taxpayers, have not forked over big bucks so these bastids could have bonuses. It isn't as if anybody has actually been prosecuted for their frauds. They have in fact been rewarded handsomely and are paying less income tax on their ill gotten gains than the rest of us. Why are we as tax payers such suckers?

                American Television is a vast sea of stupid. -xxdr zombiexx

                by glitterscale on Tue Sep 18, 2012 at 09:57:54 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  You left out the 1st amendment and switched (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              doc2

              to "challenging authority" and "purposeful civil disobedience".

              OK, but you'll get arrested because most people want to go to work.

      •  Maybe this is blatant enough for you? (5+ / 0-)

        ByzantiumSecurity.com says a big "Fuck You" to the 99%.

        This is the world as the 1% see it, and as they will fight to keep it. They don't even bother to pretend anymore. The fat cats applaud the jack boots on our necks while they sip champagne, knowing full well that more impoverished families struggle to try to keep sick children alive, lose their homes, and "our" justice department prosecutes whistleblowers and pot smokers instead of banksters and corporate billionaire tax dodgers.


        "When the powerless are shut out of the media, we will make the media irrelevant" ~♥~ Anonymous ~♥~

        by Lisa Lockwood on Mon Sep 17, 2012 at 09:19:46 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I'm reminded of RFK and Kern County Sheriff (17+ / 0-)

      in 1966:

      Sheriff: Well, if we have reason to believe there's going to be a riot started, somebody tells me there's going to be trouble if you don't stop them, then its my duty to stop them.

      RFK: You go out there and arrest them?

      Sheriff: Absolutely.

      RFK: Who told you that they were going to riot?

      Sheriff: The men right out in the field that they were talking to said if you don't get them out of here we're going to cut their hearts out. So rather than letting them get cut you remove the cause.

      RFK: This is a most interesting concept, I think, that you suddenly hear talk about that somebody makes a report about somebody's going to get out of order, perhaps violate the law, and you go in and arrest them, and they haven't done anything wrong. How do you go arrest somebody if they haven't violated the law?

      Sheriff: They are ready to violate the law,in other words... just like these labor people out here...

      RFK: Could I suggest in the interim period of time, in the luncheon period of time, that the sheriff and the district attorney read the Constitution of the United States.

      Some men see things as they are and ask why. I dream of things that never were and ask why not?

      by RFK Lives on Mon Sep 17, 2012 at 07:03:02 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  JT - I don't know, but here is my guess (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      erush1345, JTinDC, GoGoGoEverton

      You can't block the streets or sidewalks. If you are intentionally blocking a street or sidewalk that's a clear municipal code violation, and you can be arrested. Once your gathering reaches a certain size, depending on the location, you need a permit. If you don't have a permit and are asked to disperse, and you don't, you can be arrested.  

      "let's talk about that"

      by VClib on Mon Sep 17, 2012 at 09:06:35 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I'm sorry where does it say this: (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        glitterscale
        Once your gathering reaches a certain size, depending on the location, you need a permit.
        In this Document:
        or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

        Education is a progressive discovery of our own ignorance.

        by Horace Boothroyd III on Mon Sep 17, 2012 at 09:28:59 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Horace - you and I and others have had long (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          JTinDC, GoGoGoEverton

          exchanges at this forum about the constitutionality of time, place and manner restrictions that have been upheld by both conservative and liberal members of the SCOTUS for six decades. The Constitution limits Congress, allowing state and local governments some freedom to balance free speech and community needs. If local governments could not enact any restrictive legislation a small group of people could stop all traffic on Park Ave or Wall Street every day. Time, place, and manner restrictions are an attempt to balance the rights of assembly and free speech with all the other citizens who have the right to move freely throughout the city and should not be inconvenienced in going about their daily lives.

          It has been a while since a time, place, manner case has been reviewed by the SCOTUS and I thought that OWS would provide one, and maybe it will.

          "let's talk about that"

          by VClib on Mon Sep 17, 2012 at 09:40:07 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  I don't think it's peaceable to block traffic. nt (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          VClib
          •  Which is annoying (3+ / 0-)

            because peaceable is really a legal term and most people see it and think that it's the same as peaceful.  Our laws are just too opaque at this point for anyone to understand without a shit load of study.

            The revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

            by AoT on Mon Sep 17, 2012 at 09:54:12 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  And then you have rightwing judges misconstruing (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              AoT

              crap and bringing "God" into it, etc etc. It's also less likely, if people like Bloomberg weren't such hardasses about the sidewalk and public steps, that all but those intending to get arrested would block people from trying to drive places.

              •  There is definitely that (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                glitterscale

                And coming from the Bay Area that's what I'm used to.  Maybe people march in the street a little ways but if you get out when they tell you to you don't get arrested, at least anywhere other than Oakland, where the police seem to be arbitrarily arresting people.  The NYPD is not just arbitrarily arresting people, they're doing it pretty brutally a lot of the time.

                The revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

                by AoT on Mon Sep 17, 2012 at 11:40:59 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

  •  Have the OWS people (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JTinDC, Words In Action

    decided to take a side in the election that will occur in less than 60 days?

    The bitter truth of deep inequality has been disguised by an era of cheap imported goods and the anyone-can-make-it celebrity myth - Polly Toynbee

    by fladem on Mon Sep 17, 2012 at 06:09:07 AM PDT

    •  It's not a monolithic group. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Lisa Lockwood

      There are those that won't vote as they see no difference between the candidates, there will be votes for the Greens and other small Parties, and probably (hopefully) some votes for Obama. Hopefully not any Romney votes.

      •  Heh. Brain won't wrap around (4+ / 0-)

        the idea of any #Occupiers voting for rMoney ;-)


        "When the powerless are shut out of the media, we will make the media irrelevant" ~♥~ Anonymous ~♥~

        by Lisa Lockwood on Mon Sep 17, 2012 at 06:24:51 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  This is why the have become mostly (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        johnny wurster

        irrelevant.

        The bitter truth of deep inequality has been disguised by an era of cheap imported goods and the anyone-can-make-it celebrity myth - Polly Toynbee

        by fladem on Mon Sep 17, 2012 at 06:24:57 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  But why is that such a bad thing? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Box of Rain

          They were a huge success, and accomplished a change in the conversation. Then they stopped (for whatever reason). To me, that's a success. There is no need for them to protest forever to have gotten their message across, and already it was apparent that people were starting to get sick of the inconveniences caused by all the protests. Also, IMO after a while it was rubbing people the wrong way that in a time that jobs are scarce, so many were spending all their time protesting instead of looking for jobs (that was the perception at least). OWS is not irrelevant any more than we are irrelevant when we are no longer here; we make our mark, and that mark (large or small) sticks around.

        •  Except Dems started talking about inequality again (7+ / 0-)

          Media are talking about it, too, making it easier for Dems to get some mileage from that issue.

          Sounds like Occupy has been relevant.

          Just because Occupiers haven't chosen en masse to become the DNC's pet voting bloc doesn't mean they are irrelevant.

        •  you are so very wrong (5+ / 0-)

          and are believing what you see or read in the media.  

          Occupy movement has already successfully challenged the "conventional wisdom" that deficits were the most important issue facing this country.  After Occupy last fall, the deficit was no longer the top topic. Inequality is.

          Change does not happen overnight.  To call the movement irrelevant is so very wrong without understanding how social change comes about.  Occupy is not a political movement in the traditional sense.  It is a social movement that will eventually have political ramifications like the Civil Rights movement and the Women's movement.  It will result in major changes to our political system and the power structure in this country.

          I challenge you to watch the Chris Hedges interview that I linked in my comment titled, Thank you.  Perhaps then you will better understand what Occupy means.  Do not expect change over night or even under the Occupy banner, but change will come.  It is inevitable.

          "Growing up is for those who don't have the guts not to. Grow wise, grow loving, grow compassionate, but why grow up?" - Fiddlegirl

          by gulfgal98 on Mon Sep 17, 2012 at 06:56:20 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  If not, I bet we can guess what will be happening (0+ / 0-)

      beginning 11/7.

      If Obama, kill Simpson-Bowles in its crib, after campaign murmurs of reviving The Grand Bargain for debt reduction.

      If Mitt, protest the entire Republican economic strategy of turbocharged vulture-style supply-side capitalism.

      While Obama is no supply-side slayer, Mitt would place a whole set of barriers to the Movement.

      In the meantime, a campaign season position is a tough call. I'm guessing a consensus would be "neither".

      Purging predominantly minority voters and requiring them to present IDs to vote in the face of VIRTUALLY NON-EXISTENT VOTER FRAUD is RACISM! I hereby declare all consenting Republicans RACISTS until they stand up and object to these practices!

      by Words In Action on Mon Sep 17, 2012 at 06:24:53 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Perhaps a more important question, fladem (8+ / 0-)

      Will any Democrats campaigning take a side in the OWS movement in less than 60 days?

      Have the OWS people decided to take a side in the election that will occur in less than 60 days?

      "Who are these men who really run this land? And why do they run it with such a thoughtless hand? David Crosby.

      by allenjo on Mon Sep 17, 2012 at 06:40:53 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Needs more (11+ / 0-)

    Cow bell tipping

    White-collar conservatives flashing down the street, pointing their plastic finger at me..

    by BOHICA on Mon Sep 17, 2012 at 06:40:33 AM PDT

  •  Thanks, Horace! (3+ / 0-)

    As always, you're doing a great job.

    "Mitt Romney is Dick Cheney with more charisma"

    by Betty Pinson on Mon Sep 17, 2012 at 06:47:50 AM PDT

  •   I so wish the OWS media and strategy (7+ / 0-)

    wasn't so focused on arrests. I mostly blame the NYPD and stupid instigators, but twitter streams and live streams I see just push this "look arrests !"and FTC narrative that is getting close to martyrizing those involved in cop confrontations. which only feeds that loop and distracts from the actual issues. I want diary titles like "OWS success"  

  •  Happy Birthday to me. Wish I was there. (4+ / 0-)

    That'd be a nice present.  A summons from the NYPD, to prove my liberal credentials.

    Thought I missed the chance to be oppressed...

    Who knew?

    I don't blame Christians. I blame Stupid. Which sadly is a much more popular religion these days.

    by detroitmechworks on Mon Sep 17, 2012 at 07:04:34 AM PDT

  •  Just an FYI-FBI & DHS recently... (4+ / 0-)

     'Issued a Joint Security Bulletin'" Putting First Responders on Alert.  If OWS participants aren't aware of this Bulletin, they should at least know that police who haven't been tolerant of the protests in the past could use the Bulletin as an (of course bogus in the case of OWS) excuse to be even less tolerant:

    In the wake of widespread protests and violence in the Middle East...

    ...a U.S. intelligence bulletin, issued by the FBI and Department of Homeland Security, warns that such extremist violence could become a domestic problem as well.

    While the bulletin makes no mention of specific threats, ABC News notes it does caution first responders to be "aware of the potential for spontaneous large crowds and protests that could overwhelm resources." Personnel should also "be vigilant for possible efforts to encourage peaceful protesters to commit acts of violence..."

  •  S#17 is trending on twitter nt (2+ / 0-)
  •  Great message, great actions (4+ / 0-)

    Occupy protesters blast 'criminality' of Wall Street

    “Why are we going back to Wall Street? Because the one percent wants it all and they’re not giving anything up without a struggle. Economic conditions are roughly as bad as they were a year ago and for many, many people they’re precarious,” said Bill Dobbs, of the Occupy Wall Street public relations team.

    Monday's demonstration will culminate three days of teach-ins, marches, a town square and other events in New York leading up to the anniversary of the day when protesters first occupied Zuccotti Park in lower Manhattan. Authorities evicted them from the site, which had turned into a large camp, about two months later.

    How did Supreme Court decision ACA help the 23 million still uncovered? Ask the 18,000 Doctors of PNHP -- they're not waiting, FORWARD now to pass H.R. 676, the “Expanded and Improved Medicare for All Act .

    by divineorder on Mon Sep 17, 2012 at 08:08:10 AM PDT

  •  daystar pro is an idiot (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ZappoDave, VClib, martini
    Is arresting peaceful protesters protection of pub safety or perverted form of voter suppression? #ows #S17 locked up or felon, can't vote?☑
    a) "felony" specifically means an offense carrying a sentence of at least 1 year, possibly with fines

    b) removing a person's right to vote requires that the person actually be convicted of felony charges

    c) it isn't even true that felony charges preclude one from voting.  they don't in new york, once the jail time/probation has been served.


    just the kind of sensationalist hyperbole nobody needs.

    Die with your boots on. If you're gonna try, well stick around. Gonna cry? Just move along. The truth of all predictions is always in your hands. - Iron Maiden

    by Cedwyn on Mon Sep 17, 2012 at 08:34:01 AM PDT

  •  Wow, had to look up "Byzantium Security" (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Horace Boothroyd III

    That's excellent.

    !! Four more years !!

    by raincrow on Mon Sep 17, 2012 at 09:55:45 AM PDT

  •  ByzantiumSecurity "for the 1% that matters" (0+ / 0-)

    Clever marketing campaign.

    .@PWeiskel08 sez Security company ad nr Wall St. "We're not 4 everyone. Just the 1% that mattrs" #ows #s17 http://instagr.am/... // Stunning
    The website that image leads to, ByzantiumSecurity.com, is sparse of real information but looks great, very JamesBondian.  Digging into that site, you get to a "cognitive test" to see if you qualify to work in their special "1% protecting" forces.  Sadly, the test is kind of a bogus ego boost, the camera-required test didn't need the camera that I agreed to enable, but had covered with paper.  So the facial recognition test put me in the top 10% of the country. Subsequent tests (all bogus, but finely crafted mindfuckery) boosted my results to the top 5%, top 2%, and ha-ha, eventually I joined the top 1% of the country in cognitive results, although I purposefully blew the final test three times in a row.  (hint: do NOT draw a stick figure for the drawing test) .... so now YOU are in the 1%, ah! ah! ah! (to quote The Count).

    Final video is an ad for a new spy-thriller TV show, and along the way you see a subtle HBO copyright watermark.

    Very clever, but don't worry about the inherent idiocy of a pro-1% security agency calling attention to themselves via sidewalk poster ad.

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