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As we were taking a walk yesterday, my husband Ron asked if I had seen my nieces' mother post on FB yesterday.  I told him no and he had the look like "i shouldn't have said anything". (He KNOWS how I get).  Before I get to our conversation, some background on this woman:  she had her first child with my brother-in-law when she was 20 years old and then they had another one when she was 24.  (They have been split up for years).  The girls are now 11 and 6, respectively.  

The girls are currently on Medicaid, have lived in Section 8 in the past and the mother is CURRENTLY being paid to go to school. This is the third school that I know of that she has attended.  (I am almost positive that the government is also paying for her schooling since she doesn't work!).

She started with this:

"Why are people making a big shit bout what Romney said....IT'S TRUE....I can name 10 people of hand who live off government....I'm Talkn section8 Foodstamps cash medical n section 8 also pays their gas n light also....what happened to WORKING FOR WHAT YOU WANT??? N how they even mad its Statistics...."
She got some crap from her other friends asking her basically "really?" since she has been taking government services for years.  (I guess she thinks those things grow on trees!)

I responded with :  

He is TOTALLY WRONG!! He is talking about people who take child tax credits, seniors on Medicare, earned income tax credit, etc. If you take these standard deductions and end up owing zero federal income tax, he is calling you a moocher. He is not talking about welfare cheats--obviously they are wrong. If you know people gaming the system, call the fraud hotline and turn them in. I can't WAIT to talk to you on Saturday and explain this all to you!!
I couldn't stop there:
(R)money also has tax havens in the Caymen Islands, Bermuda and Switzerland which he offshored to AVOID PAYINIG TAXES. He wants US to pay more in taxes when he doesn't even pay what he should because he keeps his $$ offshore. He won't even show his tax returns (which EVERY candidate has always done--his own FATHER is the one who started the tradition back in the 60's.) I cannot believe that you support this man. Seriously....
She came back with:  
And I do support him...I don't dig Obama telling me my what I can n can't feed my kids....abortion issues...I'm catholic....n seriously can't believe you support him....plus if I wanted to live in a communist country I'd move to one.... And ok romney is the only one with $ offshore????nope sure our president has $ off shore too....plus I voted for him once n don't like what he stands for....
To which I replied:
As far as abortion goes, if you don't like them, don't have one. I'm Catholic too and all the top folks in the church want to talk about is gays and abortions. Why don't you look up the Nuns on the Bus Tour (the REAL Catholics in my opinion) who are actually showing how these policies affect the poor. Republicans talk about individual liberty but want to tell other citizens what to do with their bodies. Obama doesn't HAVE overseas bank accounts. You have to list them on your tax forms: he doesn't---(R)money does. Obama is not telling YOU what to feed your kids. The obesity epidemic in this country needs to be addressed and they RECOMMENDED schools not sell soda (which is ALL SUGAR) and prepackaged food that is ALL SODIUM. Pittsburgh Public Schools adopted that when President BUSH was in the WH). You say you voted for him and "don't like what he stands for". Tell me what you think he stands for. I am guessing that you watch ALOT of Fox News. I suggest you turn the channel.
She answered:
Listen its my opinion n I'm not voting for someone I don't like....and my mind is set.  I do like fox news they don't sugar coat shit"
Of course I responded:
I respect your opinion but have to admit that I am absolutely FLOORED by it. How did I know that you watched Fox News? SIX studies have shown that people who watch Fox are more uninformed that people who watch NO news. They tried to start the channel in Canada but was barred because they don't permit NEWS organizations to LIE ON THE AIR!! (Google it). The Top 1% (who earn over $400,000/year) get 23.9% of the taxbreaks and the Top 10% raked in 40.3% of the tax breaks. The BOTTOM 60% of us got 20.1% of the tax breaks--earned income tax credits, child credits, etc.

Here. I googled it myself: "Fox News has been denied a broadcasting license in Canada because Canada has the Canada Radio Act which requires that a licenser may not broadcast any false or misleading news.
In the US, they used to have the Fairness Doctrine, but it was eliminated in 1987 under Ronald Reagan".

She came back with:
Listen I was floored when he passed a bill on full term abortion... N now guess what if one of my daughters or nieces get pregnant at 13 they DON'T NEED PARENTS CONSENT TO GET AN ABORTION...that's when the government steps on toes...you don't make life n death choices at 13 and that's the shit I won't stand for...he lost my vote
I replied:
WHAT FULL TERM ABORTION BILL? That is a total lie! Also as far as parental consent for abortions? That is a STATE ISSUE--NOT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT'S ISSUE. Again, from Google:  "The answer depends on the state in which you live. Some states require notification of the teenagers parents, some require consent from one or both parents and some states have no policy. In the states with no policy, there is no consent or notification needed. A 13-year-old can get an abortion without notification to her parents.  Fox also has a habit of cutting off video. If they show an Obama video, do me a favor. Check the video out at another place and I am POSITIVE it will show something completely different. They did this today (again) with a video from Obama from 1998. They cut it off so it shows what THEY want you to believe. For example, if you saw a video of me that said "I don't like Ron", I am sure you would be surprised. But, if you played the entire thing where I said "I don't like Ron having to get up at 4:00 a.m." you wouldn't be surprised. They do this ALL THE TIME.
Haven't heard back from her in over three hours.  Have to go a one-year-old's birthday party on Saturday.  Somehow I have the feeling this isn't going to be pretty.  I just hope I can hold my tongue and ask the dimwit how she and her kids could have survived without all the government help she was given.
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Comment Preferences

  •  I think I'm about ready to lose one myself (10+ / 0-)

    have been going around and around with him for a couple of days now.

      •  sasidechick - one nit (0+ / 0-)

        No one, including Romney, saves any taxes by having assets in tax havens like the Caymen Islands. If you are a US taxpayer the taxes you owe on your worldwide income are the same regardless of where the assets are domiciled. It's very different for corporations, but for individuals it makes no difference if all your assets are held in New York or Bermuda.

        I know there has been a lot written here that suggests that Romney and others are dodging taxes by having accounts in Switzerland. That may be true if the accounts are not disclosed to the IRS, which is a felony, but for people who have disclosed their foreign accounts the tax rates are the same.

        Unfortunately as it relates to taxes we have have had a great deal of misinformation circulating here at DKOS. We only have a handful of real tax experts here at DKOS and this is an area where unless you are an expert, it is really easy to get the facts wrong, even if the intent is to be accurate.

        "let's talk about that"

        by VClib on Thu Sep 20, 2012 at 02:07:01 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  and there be the key: (0+ / 0-)
          That may be true if the accounts are not disclosed to the IRS,
          also, it depends on how those accounts are established. i've seen some (i'm a cpa, been involved in taxes my entire adult life, over 30 years now) that had a labyrinth of entities, between them and the actual owner/beneficiary, all for the sole purpose of obfuscating the beneficial ownership (who actually benefits from it) of the assets. the only reason these entities exist, is for tax purposes, nothing more.

          any account established in a "tax shelter" country (the caymen islands is so designated), is automatically suspect, and is like throwing a red cape in front of a bull, to the IRS.

          •  cpinva - offshore accounts do raise red flags (0+ / 0-)

            As it relates to Romney most of the offshore accounts resulted from ownership interests in Bain Capital partnerships established offshore for non-US investors, a universal practice for large investment managers who manage assets using the partnerships structure. From what I have seen in the Romney return, and given that PWC is his tax adviser, his foreign accounts look straight forward with maybe a few exceptions. I don't think Romney is saving any taxes by having some of his assets offshore. I don't know if you have looked at the 2010 return but johnny wursler, a DKOS blogger and tax lawyer, has done a few deep dives and only has a question on one of the foreign accounts.

            "let's talk about that"

            by VClib on Thu Sep 20, 2012 at 07:32:26 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  Gotta love social media (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Scott Campbell, JL, chimene

      The conservastupidia virus has been able to spread unchecked for decades. Now when it tries to find more victims, it's immediately met with a barrage of social truth medicine like we've never seen before. Way to go sasidechick! With work like yours and others we'll wipe out this terrible disease.

    •  yes just recently - 2 Friends from long ago HS (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      JL

      that I reconnected to on Facebook...who I thought were reasonable people... posted Obama derangement syndrome stuff just in the past week or so... just so sad...

      (One had a lapsed Mormon dad... not sure if she has gone Mormon since her youth... she was brought up Catholic.....

      The other is gay... and I guess is a Republican from what he posted... you never know why people think what they think...)

      Pogo & Murphy's Law, every time. Also "Trust but verify" - St. Ronnie (hah...)

      by IreGyre on Thu Sep 20, 2012 at 02:09:21 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Good heavens (5+ / 0-)

    recommending for your supreme patience. And I suspect that if my two cousins and few friends who support Romney would be honest with me about why, it would also boil down to abortion.

    I have been considering writing some sort of essay about why some of us support choice even though none of us are really "pro-abortion" because I really think these women believe they are somehow more moral. Then again, it might be like banging my head against this same wall you're experiencing.

  •  Wingnuts don't believe in facts. But... (11+ / 0-)

    it is fun to have those kind of discussions on facebook because your friends and theirs need to read them.

    Logical discussion will never change the mind of a wingnut.

    I have one who has been blasting me about that horrible Attorney General Holder.  Sad and sick stuff.

    Then the official report came out.  Then @Lawrence ripped the Mittens donors a new one over the same nasty smears - "the most corrupt Attorney General in history..."

    Since the @Lawrence tape ripping on Nixon's crooks I have had no responses from my "friend."

    Meanwhile, people I haven't heard from in years have begun to start liking my comments.  As silly as it seems, my facebook chatter (and yours) IS making a difference.  Just not with the specific person we are chatting with.

    Keep up the good work.

    "When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty (Mittens, Paul Ryan, Scotty Walker, Limbaugh, pick your favorite) said in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less."

    by Eman on Thu Sep 20, 2012 at 01:29:21 PM PDT

  •  On the other hand, you just made a friend here. (7+ / 0-)

    Well done!

    "Gussie, a glutton for punishment, stared at himself in the mirror."

    by GussieFN on Thu Sep 20, 2012 at 01:32:16 PM PDT

  •  You have guts! (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    wyvern, semctydem, Sylv, BachFan

    Unfortunately for me I had an almost identical conversation on FB (at least the abortion part) with my daughter. She has used and b/o a child with Down's syndrome uses many government services. I had to back away before it got too nasty, I want to be able to see my grandchildren!

    Friend of mine uses this line on FB all the time: "Do you need me to spell GOOGLE for you?"

    Many people inhabit a closed belief system on whose door they have hung the "Do Not Disturb" sign. --Bill Moyers

    by shanesnana on Thu Sep 20, 2012 at 01:37:23 PM PDT

  •  I actually feel sorry for her (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    twigg, wyvern, Russgirl

    She can't think.  Good god our education system has failed.

    Romney/Caligula 2012!

    by sujigu on Thu Sep 20, 2012 at 01:44:19 PM PDT

  •  They know nothing! (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    wyvern

    and they are so sure about it!

    I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
    but I fear we will remain Democrats.

    by twigg on Thu Sep 20, 2012 at 01:46:13 PM PDT

  •  You have to wonder sometimes (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    wyvern, gustynpip, Sylv, sasidechick

    whether it is better to know these things about our friends or not.

    Most of my FB friends are liberal, but the other day I saw that an old friend "liked" Paul Ryan on FB. This is someone who is basically squarely in the category of just the kind of person Ayn Rand would have loved to have personally thrown right under the bus and enjoyed hearing it go over her.

    I seriously cannot understand how some people can vote the way they do. I'm not sure I am happy knowing this about my friend.

  •  They respond to emotion, not logic (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Scott Campbell, boudi08

    If you want to have a chance at persuasion, you have to speak to the fear in them.  Facts are boring and manipulated.

    Read the Conservatives without Conscience (by John Dean) for more on this.

    Personally, this isn't worth the argument.  You type in complete sentences.  I have to work just to understand what she's trying to communicate.  I have no patience for this anymore!

  •  I have been there and done that. (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jayden, MaikeH, Russgirl, BachFan

    One of my best friends. We remained friends because I told him that the only thing we couldn't discuss was politics because he is a conservative and I am a liberal. I knew I needed to set that boundary with him. Worked great for years, but he finally couldn't keep to the agreement and I had to let him go.

    What are their names and on what street do they live-David Crosby-"If I Could Only Remember My Name"

    by IB JOHN on Thu Sep 20, 2012 at 02:00:55 PM PDT

  •  I think... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Scott Campbell

    ..you just drove her further into Romney's camp by stating facts.

    I've dealt with these types also:  They deeply cherish their conspiracy theories & mis-information; facts do not enlighten them...facts frustrate them.

    These type people are a lost cause.  They live in a dream world & like it that way.  There is literally nothing you can do about it.

    FOX News = where David Axelrod spends his every Sunday morning legitimizing the illegitimate.

    by wyvern on Thu Sep 20, 2012 at 02:02:50 PM PDT

    •  I've lost a half dozen friends on Facebook (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Russgirl, Sylv

      Let me qualify that only one of those people would I truly consider a friend. The rest are just people I know on the internet. But the last person I unfriended insisted that Obama was censoring that film and that the WH conspired w/ the liberal media to out the filmmaker. He refused to answer yes or no as to whether or not the filmmaker violated his parole. I thanked him for his dishonesty and said it was nice knowing him. And then I deleted him from my friends list. And so it goes...

      •  I don't... (0+ / 0-)

        ..do Facebook, but I have lost at least one friend due to real life face-to-face encounters that involved politics.

        I knew he had evolved into a far right knucklehead, so I made up my mind to never talk politics.

        But you know how right wingers are:  They can not restrain shooting off their mouths about politics.

        In fact, they more ignorant they are, the more aggressive they are.

        I can't abide the bullshit they believe.  They will not listen to facts & reason, because all their political beliefs are tied up in superstitions & conspiracy theories.

        So the friendship ended.

        FOX News = where David Axelrod spends his every Sunday morning legitimizing the illegitimate.

        by wyvern on Thu Sep 20, 2012 at 02:24:41 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  That's why you hit them on an emotional level. (0+ / 0-)

      See my comment above.


      Not this mind and not this heart, I won't rot • Mumford & Sons

      by jayden on Thu Sep 20, 2012 at 02:21:30 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Romneycare paid for abortions (6+ / 0-)

    Watch her head explode when you mention that Romneycare paid for abortions, which Obamacare does not (and is barred by law from doing so).

  •  Ask her how she and her children are going (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    MaikeH, Russgirl, Calamity Jean, BachFan

    to live if Romney is elected and he takes away all her welfare benefits.

    She would be up @#$%creek.

  •  You're handling it exceptionally well. (6+ / 0-)

    I especially like the "Here. I googled it myself."

    And ask her this question. Would she rather a 13 year old girl get a medically safe abortion from a licensed practitioner or do it like they did 40 years ago and have some stranger in a filthy, rundown back alley shithole yank the unwanted fetus out of her uterus with a coat hanger or unsanitary clamps grabbed out of a tool box? Either way, the parents aren't going to be informed about the procedure. Well, that is unless their daughter bleeds to death on a dirty cot because she didn't get an abortion from a licensed doctor.

    Roe v. Wade didn't happen in a vacuum. There are real and gut-wrenching reasons women of the time demanded and fought for the right to choose. It's time to start reminding people of that.


    Not this mind and not this heart, I won't rot • Mumford & Sons

    by jayden on Thu Sep 20, 2012 at 02:20:08 PM PDT

  •  Me too! (0+ / 0-)

    I had one idiot this morning state that she believed we should go back to the days of the Depression when people had to work for food, shelter and health care!  The best part was her example of someone she met who worked building roads to earn a living.  Seriously...the stupid, it burns.

  •  Show her this: (0+ / 0-)

    National Review Photoshops Obama Cover

    This is the kind of shit republicans pull. The only way the believe they can win is by lying to their own readers.

    Let her know you don't hold it against her that she's been made a total fool by the party she supports. Be gentle and kind and try not to laugh too loud.


    Not this mind and not this heart, I won't rot • Mumford & Sons

    by jayden on Thu Sep 20, 2012 at 02:36:12 PM PDT

  •  I had one of these go arounds too (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    boudi08, BachFan, jayden

    and held off on the personal attacks as long as I could- but when she sunk to the lowest attacks on President Obama and his wife, I let loose - her disability her son's disability her husbands unemployment, all of which she felt she deserved because she worked for it, while our president was a Socialist for giving it to them. The old saying holds - "Don't wrestle with pigs - they love it and you just get dirty"

  •  Hey, it happens... I've had to hide FB friends (0+ / 0-)

    from my feed because I just can't stand some of the stupid crap they post! I live in Kansas so this has happened a lot lately. I'm sure they've hidden me from their feeds...Who cares? It's harder when it's a relative, but I have learned that FB fights just don't pay off. If someone is bold enough to put crazy crap out there on FB, their minds are made up. FB fights just are not worth the time or effort, and you will be heartbroken to find out just how hateful some people (that you call "friends" ) can be. It's really ugly. I'm sorry you're dealing with this! :-(

    Let America be the dream the dreamers dreamed...

    by langstonhughesfan on Thu Sep 20, 2012 at 05:05:35 PM PDT

  •  wow! just, wow! is she really that oblivious? (0+ / 0-)

    seriously, are you sure she isn't pranking you? this woman shouldn't be allowed out of the house by herself, much less be allowed to vote, or do anything requiring simple thought.

    just because someone has an opinion, doesn't mean you're required, by law or courtesy, to respect it. her opinion, based as it is on nonsense and lies, isn't worthy of your respect. if it were me (and it isn't) i'd have told her that.

    all that said, don't waste scarce, allocable emotional energy on this very dim bulb. you won't change her mind, and your blood pressure will rise needlessly.

    third school huh? is she trying to emulate her heroine, sarah palin? clearly, she hasn't made it through english grammar yet, her writing is atrocious, and nearly painful to read.

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