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Misinterpreting the First Horseman

Joseph Smith, the founder of the Mormon religion, causes many difficulties even today, because again and again he misunderstood passages in the the King James Bible. He read quickly. He skimmed through complex poetry, seeking nuggets for his sermons. He had a good memory, but he was on his own for deciphering biblical text.

He had no access to Koine Greek, per se, or to The Revelation in its own language. He did not know its history. He had no access to the main body of Catholic or Protestant annotation for these verses. He made guesses.

Smith had no one to serve competently as a content editor or as a researcher for his writings. He also took to changing the Bible where he thought to make improvements. (No small ego, this guy!)  As one example, Smith was much impressed with the verses of The Revelation of St. John the Divine, Chapter 6:

1     And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
2     And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
This is his departure point for what is called the "White Horse Prophecy" (or WHP for short.)

At one point Joseph Smith raised his own army, a force of some 5,000 men. He liked the idea of a conqueror. In 1843 Smith, acting as The Prophet, delivered his "White Horse Prophecy" based explicitly on this section of the 66th book of the King James Bible.

Accordingly, a Mormon man will ascend to the American presidency and "save the constitution." Mitt Romney said he believed he was that man destined for Smith's "White Horse." Mrs. Romney said this year that she wanted him "to fulfill his destiny." Mitt Romney said when he was a teenager that he would become this first Mormon president.

There are a number of extreme statements in the WHP. It reads like a graphic novel. We have no idea how much of the text took hold for Mitt Romney or what he remembers of it. A few weeks ago he said something odd, apparently out-of-time about Russia, which recalls this WHP snip:

...Many will come with bundles under their arms to escape the calamities for there will be no escape except only by escaping and fleeing to Zion. Those that come to you will try to keep the laws and be one with you for they will see your unity and the greatness of your organization. The Turkish Empire of the Crescent will be the first power to be disputed, for freedom must be given for the Gospel to be preached in the Holy Land. The Lord took of the best blood of the nations and planted them on the small islands now called England and Great Britain and gave them power in the nations for a thousand years and their power will continue with them that they may keep the balance of power; and they will keep Russia from sweeping her power over the world.
LDS hierarchy protest that WHP is not doctrine. It never was, because the extant text was written after Joseph Smith's death. He never saw it in writing.

The status of WHP is as strong today in Mormonism as at any time in history. Glenn Beck, for one, all but wallowed in WHP for his televised rants. Typically:

"...at a certain point, the Constitution would 'hang by a thread' and the leaders of the LDS Church would come forth to protect and restore the Constitution. Despite the continued controversy regarding the authenticity of this account, the White Horse Prophecy has been embraced by Mormon culture. Mitt Romney has denied that it is part of his own beliefs, despite his father’s own stance on the subject (he felt that Mormons would, in fact, save the Constitution). Glenn Beck has referred to this in his own crazed rants over and over. The White Horse prophecy is embedded into the very fabric of Mormonism."

-- Renato Wardle, Happy Valley, Utah

"Why Romney’s Mormonism Matters" at Counterpoint

Prophet Smith was spectacularly talented at blending magic with real world goals. There can be no question of his gifts. He founded LDS.

Biblical Scholarship

Nonetheless, this Chapter 6 tells the story of the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse. Understanding the main implications of this text requires that we consider connections with more than a dozen other sections of the Bible. That is work for trained biblical scholars, people with the language skills to work with original texts. As noted, Joseph Smith had no such language skills and he was not suited to comparative textual analysis.

That work has been done over many years. Annotated Chapter 6 texts are available. A variety of opinions can be found to help understand The Revelation's poetry. Within the school of thought that sees The Revelation as prophecy for future events, the identities of the major figures have been worked out.

The rider of this first horse, the horse of Smith's "White Horse Prophecy," is not a hero. Not at all. He is the prime villain of The Revelation, a bringer of worldwide destruction. This first rider is presented similarly in other sections of The Revelation. He is identified by virtually all contemporary biblical scholars as the Anti-Christ.

Smith did not assay the connections. He misread and misunderstand to the point of reversing the meaning of Chapter 6.

Joseph Smith considers the White Horse of his prophecy to be an allegorical figure. Yet he gives it power. He gives it an existence in the human world. He gives it a magical power, as a spell or a charm.

"The White Horse," as re-conjured by Prophet Smith, is a magical protection for lies.

-- Smith identifies lying severally and throughout his works and sermons to be the most powerful weapon for gaining earthly political power.

-- In  practice, Smith's "White Horse" functions as a protection for public lies -- specifically, lies that are constructed to achieve advancement outside of the Church.

What could be of concern for Christians, literal-belief Christians all the more, is seeing a politician come along who believes these things. Who sees WHP as his personal destiny. This man will change any position. The man lies with no moral distress. He will say almost anything.

Political Impact

During the Wednesday night debate, Mitt Romney spoke quickly, smoothly -- apparently more at ease -- when he was reciting planned lies. This speech-pattern change is apparent with his 38 repetitions of the false-witness claim that Obama and his people had taken "$716-billion" out of Medicare.

Romney has come to be comfortable with planned lying. He is not so free and easy with ordinary talking, where he has to work at it to maintain control of his phrases and messaging.

Media are doing little to call out demagoguery.

Romney is pressing claims to simultaneously cut tax rates, not add to the deficit, repair America's shattered world image, create 12-million jobs, raise military spending, and save both Medicare and Medicaid from destruction. Let the campaign go on past Election Day and he will promise to learn to fly without mechanical assistance.

The corporations' media employees are assigned a motto: "Hear no evil. See no evil. Speak no evil."

Smith's White Horse is functioning perfectly. Based on these observations, anyway.

The Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter-day Saints is not involved. The original White Horse Prophecy is never discussed in the context of Chapter 6 of The Revelation. Despite that Joseph Smith was explicit in his sourcing, bringing up this connection to the Holy Bible is forbidden. Insisting on bringing up Smith's misreading of biblical text by a Temple-letter Mormon would almost certainly result in excommunication.

LDS has a simple failing. There is no independent quality control. LDS is not the only religion with this problem. Appeal to Authority, a standard type of informal fallacies, is allowed to dominate approved thinking. In LDS bowing to authority is called "faith-supporting."

Excommunication shuts off bottom-up efforts at quality control.

Joseph Smith's "Book of Abraham," for example, has been proved to have a dishonest provenance. He claimed it to be a "translation" from "Reformed Egyptian" on mummy wrappings. One could not construct a broader example of dishonesty.

Plainly bad teachings, such as this White Horse Prophecy, are given a forced respect. It is not Church doctrine, legally and officially, yet the words came from Prophet Smith and Prophet Brigham Young vouched lion-like for its central themes. Statements from Prophet McKay and others have never addressed the nature of the White Horse, itself, same as they never admit that the Red Horse is violence.

Tests for honest sourcing and truthfulness are not applied, apparently from fear that improvements will cause embarrassment. Of course, they do. "Every improvement embarrasses someone," from the great Japanese engineer Ichiro Ishikawa. That is why organizational change demands courage.

Easier to kick it all down the road. Easier to look the other way and count gold.

One casualty of this failure to clean shop at LDS is Mitt Romney.

The man did well at Harvard Law, if not quite as well as President Obama. He has ability. Yet as a young man he had a talent for lying. When he came upon this "White Horse Prophecy" he fell into it -- a hazard left on his life's road by the management at LDS -- and went on down like Alice falling into the rabbit hole at the start of her Adventures in Wonderland.

Please consider an analogy with drinking alcohol. Fully 10% of social drinkers become alcoholics. They lose control of their habit. They fall down that rabbit hole. So what do you think happens with liars?

America as a Civilization

We must be our own leaders, as Occupy says. We must determine where problems exist. We must act when needed.

We must be vigilant. We must act when our liberties are threatened. We must beware that wealth and such as a man's clothes do not make the man.

False witness, slandering lies told over years and years? Yes, that makes something. What Mitt Romney makes of himself by attacking so many truths ???

You can decide for yourself what you think of him.

His speech pattern from Wednesday evening is not encouraging. Romney is at ease, he feels protected telling prepared lies. There is less chance, then, that a clumsy phrase will catch him out.

Mitt Romney is not a supernatural figure. He is not a death-eater Anti-Christ. He just plays one in real life. Physical work, money, whatever it takes from us -- we do have to stop this guy.

If you would like to see more in the way of links and what Romney has done with big lies over the years, then please follow below le chignon d'orange....

The "White Horse Prophecy" has an irregular background for something so important in Mormon history. It was not written down, not by Joseph Smith.

Problem begins, Smith took pride in his abilities as a smooth liar. Brigham Young picked up on that and said the LDS would have the "smoothest liars" of all.

Much of Mormonism is like that. There is no quality control. Smith's spells survive in LDS among the Church "Ordinances."

- - - - - - - - - - - -

Not much that addresses touches the well-financed Romney lying machine can be described with simple, 200-word pieces. The man spreads confusion. He hires accomplices. Unraveling his schemes can be interesting, but even then the summary report is often dry as written text.

Here is the dkos diary that covers Romney's fatal accident in 1968:

-- Mitt Romney's Driving Killed Leola Anderson. His Cover-Up Tale is Proved Dishonest

His driving kills a 57-year old mother of four. He is wide awake blaming the other driver, first thing the next morning.

Then in 2006/2007 he invents being knocked into a "three day coma" in that accident for his authorized biography, "The Real Romney." If believed by unsuspecting readers, that gets him off with respect to slandering the other driver, Bishop Jean Vilnet. This prevarication also gets him sympathy from those readers, no small achievement.

"The Real Romney": Authorized Biography Echoes Fabulist Inventions

A new day, a new lie. On the evidence, Romney has forgotten who he is and become his own dishonesty. WHP-protected lying is his alcohol.

- - - - - - - - -

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Comment Preferences

  •  White Horse Prophecy may lack authenticity (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Bob Love, native, FarWestGirl, koseighty
    The authenticity of the White Horse Prophecy is debated. It was never made public during Smith's lifetime, but was recorded many years after his death by one of his associates, Edwin Rushton.[1] Although some elements of the statement were confirmed by contemporary LDS Church leaders as having been taught by Smith, the prophecy as a whole has never been officially acknowledged or accepted, and it has been repudiated by the LDS Church since 1918.
    It's authenticity and historicity has been rejected by the LDS church:
    The so-called 'White Horse Prophecy' is based on accounts that have not been substantiated by historical research and is not embraced as Church doctrine.
    "
    •  Forget to link first blockquote (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Bob Love, FarWestGirl
      •  The problem with all this, Shawn, is that the (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Paul Rogers

        church keeps changing the goal posts.

        For instance, if a Prophet says something very hang-dog, the church says he was speaking as a man, not a Prophet. As you know, this happens ALL the time with Brigham Young.

        So how does ANYONE know when the Prophet is speaking as a Prophet even if the associated words are given? They don't. The church seems to come up with new rules on a as needed basis. Look at the language associated with the 1978 decree. Does it fit the language pattern associated with other revelations?

        At a time when the LDS church was under serious pressure to allow blacks to hold the priesthood, the then-prophet had a revelation to that effect. Coincidence? Divine intervention? The church, AS HUMANS, doing what they knew they had to do politically?  Who knows.

        Yet years later, another prophet says they don't know why etc. though the 15 discussed it. I do NOT believe no one knows "why".  I think that is just flat out bull--a lie.

        As far as White Horse goes, believe me there are PLENTY of LDS members who completely stand with the prophesy regardless of LDS apologetics just as most of the church believes the earth is only 6K years old or so despite science etc.

        Yeah, there's a LOT of cog dis in all this, but that doesn't mean it bothers most. It obviously doesn't.  

        Additionally, I would add that the church has a way of relegating their own history to "folklore". I see it time and time again. To this day, the church is dishonest about polygamy, for instance. Like investigators, the general public is fed milk and the church often hides the meat until later.

        202-224-3121 to Congress in D.C. USE it! You can tell how big a person is by what it takes to discourage them. "We're not perfect, but they're nuts."--Barney Frank 01/02/2012

        by cany on Fri Oct 05, 2012 at 08:10:16 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  It doesn't have to be authentic to be believed. (9+ / 0-)

      Some things that are literally beyond belief are believed.

      "I was a big supporter of waterboarding" - Dick Cheney 2/14/10

      by Bob Love on Fri Oct 05, 2012 at 04:02:49 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I am sure it is believed but not by the LDS Church (0+ / 0-)

        They in fact repudiated it and rejected it.

        •  No. Not repudiated. Not rejected. (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Bob Love, blueoasis, cany

          Said to be not a part of core belief.

          Mitt Romney certainly believes that "White Horse Prophesy" is from Joseph Smith. Same as other Mormons. This is not an obscure part of their lore.

          •  Let's just see what the church says (0+ / 0-)

            "

            The so-called 'White Horse Prophecy' is based on accounts that have not been substantiated by historical research and is not embraced as Church doctrine."

            Source: http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/...

            So the Church admits that it is not embraced by "Church doctrine." Please just stop.

            •  It was Prophesied by Smith. (6+ / 0-)

              Until another Prophet renounces it publicly it is dogma.

              Education is a progressive discovery of our own ignorance.

              by Horace Boothroyd III on Fri Oct 05, 2012 at 05:03:16 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Here, provenance is the issue. (0+ / 0-)

                The recorded words got to paper after Smith's death. He had no review for authenticity.

                However, research connects "White Horse Prophecy" with numerous other statements from Smith during the same period.

                It has not been "dogma" since 1910.

                The poison in this thing is its elevation of lying to a supported status, an acceptance of secrecy and dissimulation as primary tools for dealing with other Americans.

                Lying involves poison. Consider drinking alcohol. 10% of social drinkers become alcoholics. What you think happens to liars?

                Lie about somebody ??? False witness. That requires a drop of hatred.

            •  Church lore is different from Church docrine. (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Templar, Bob Love, Smoh, cany

              "White Horse Prophecy" is very well known among Saints and quoted by everyone from Reid and Hatch to Glenn Beck.

              It has a status similar to the legend of Orrin Rockwell Porter.

              What is not understood generally is the nature of the White Horse. You have to read more of Smith to connect these dots as he rarely lays everything out at one time. Similarly, the Red Horse in Joseph Smith's extended allegory is violence.

              Mitt Romney ??? He got into "White Horse Prophesy" the way kids get into video games today. He never got out of it.

              LDS owes its kids more than a lawyerly cowardly press release. Smith screwed the pooch; misread the Revelation, Chapter 6; and deserves calumny about parallel to this diary. Embarrass LDS ??? So be it. They're big boys.

              •  And to make matters even more complicated, Mitt's (0+ / 0-)

                patriarchal blessing MAY have included his present. We will never know unless he tells and that will never happen.

                202-224-3121 to Congress in D.C. USE it! You can tell how big a person is by what it takes to discourage them. "We're not perfect, but they're nuts."--Barney Frank 01/02/2012

                by cany on Fri Oct 05, 2012 at 08:12:14 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

    •  Since no other Phophet has come forward to (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      blueoasis

      renounce it Mormons still believe it.

      They are a simple people and obedience is key.

      Education is a progressive discovery of our own ignorance.

      by Horace Boothroyd III on Fri Oct 05, 2012 at 05:01:25 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I'm a bit uncomfortable with your phrasing. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Shawn Russell

        Catholics have a ritual where crackers and wine becomes the flesh and blood of Jesus.  I don't know why they engage in the ritual, it's kind of silly.

        A long time ago, Catholic figures would claim that Jews would come into services to get these crackers and so they could drive nails into them.  In order to hurt Jesus.  This used to drive a lot of anti-Jew sentiment.

        As far as I know, the whole crackers & wine thing is still part of Catholic doctrine, and it's very silly.  My point is, this may be a part of Catholic doctrine, but I'm not sure that they believe in it as a group.

        Very few people, even within a religion, take their prophecies and rituals seriously.  If they did, nobody would belong to a religion.  Mormons as a group might not believe this thing.

        Moderation exists within these groups, and it's only the most crazy (and devoted) that believe in the out-there stuff.

        •  You don't understand. (5+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          BitterEnvy, Smoh, Louise, bluedust, blueoasis

          Mormons are different.

          A Profit is the Pope to Mormons in a way. And even more.

          Even Romney does this. They decide who's children marry whom if you want to be in the upper echelons. They will tell parents which children to drive into the big city and make get out of the car. In far rural areas they are dropped a couple miles outside the county seat. The child may have never seen the place in their life or anything outside a farm for that matter. There are many Mormons that will never interact on another level with non-Mormons except on Mission. AFAIK it is only males that go on Mission. Going to their pages give me a headache so it is either PTSD or they are flashing subliminals.

          Do not make the mistake of Comparing Mormons to any religion without reading considerably on it first.

          Since it was the first thing I was rigorously taught please challenge me on the theology, it will be fun since I haven't really used it. But I have lived in communities Mormon dominated since then and have learned some of the darker stuff there.

          Education is a progressive discovery of our own ignorance.

          by Horace Boothroyd III on Fri Oct 05, 2012 at 05:26:49 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Mormonism seems similar to Scientology to me. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            bluedust, bontemps2012

            There's no question that there's awful stuff in there.

            Scientology is probably the most similar religion to Mormonism, and does a lot of the same kind of things.

            I understand that there are some people out there totally willing to use an individuals innate sense of moderation as a weapon against you.  As a way to make you misunderstand their intentions.

            The leaders of the Mormon church, like the leaders of Scientology are seriously into some sick shit.

            But the average, everyday Mormon, just in it because it's what their family is in..?

            They're probably more like Catholics than crazy Mormon leadership.

            •  That is what i'm trying to tell people (5+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Smoh, Louise, bluedust, blueoasis, Timaeus

              do not compare Mormonism to any other religion without serious study.

              They are not like Catholics. The average Mormon is more like the average Amish. Completely isolated socially from non-Mormons.

              Education is a progressive discovery of our own ignorance.

              by Horace Boothroyd III on Fri Oct 05, 2012 at 06:07:20 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  They are people first and crazy second. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                bontemps2012

                As an outsider looking in: all religious groups seem crazy to me.

                I'm not really qualified to talk about how the communities behave other than the vile behavior I can see from their leaders from outside looking in, or the flat out awful advice some of their 'spiritual advisers' give.  I do not belong to any such group and I can pretty safely say I never will.

                But asserting that they aren't like others is exactly what bigotry is.  Not that I'm saying there aren't legitimate reasons to critique Mormonism in particular, there are.  (According to my limited knowledge of the ideology, as a community they are especially aggressive in targeting people who commit apostacy.  They just draw the line at murdering them, unlike say, Muslims.)

                But there are many things that Mormons do that aren't any different from other religious communities.  To religious groups, outside opinions (and people) are often regarded as being the dangerous influence of evil outside forces.  Sometimes, this even translates into justifications that it is okay to lie, cheat, or murder people who don't belong to one's group.  This isn't in all religious communities, but this kind of philosophy does exist in all of them to varying degrees based on how extremist they are.

                I generally don't like religious organizations because they promote extremist thinking, and in fact, often generate it quite rampantly.  There are a few that don't do this, but there's a general pressure to drive the adherents to extremism in all of them.

                I've seen no evidence to suggest that Mormons are susceptible to extremist ideology at a rate significantly higher than non-Mormons, though.  That being said, Christianity in general has been INUNDATED with extremist political ideology lately.  I wouldn't be too surprised if the politically active religious community (the ironically named 'Moral Majority') became full-fledged fascists soon.

                I don't like religion, and some groups are more dangerous than others, but they only differ from one another by the harmfulness of their bullshit.  Religion may justify the murder of abortion doctors as a necessary evil to stop the greater evil of dead babies.  This can make a murderer somewhat of a hero in those communities, but it doesn't mean that everyone in that community would've murdered the doctor.  Only one person actually did.

                But despite this, many people who belong to religious groups are fine people.  Just like slavery, every person who is involved in an evil practice is not evil.  I generally don't have a problem with individuals in a religion.  I just try to take exception to the religion itself.

                It's hard to draw a distinction sometimes, but it's important to remember that they are a person first, and a they second.

                •  I'm not an outsider. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  bontemps2012

                  Education is a progressive discovery of our own ignorance.

                  by Horace Boothroyd III on Fri Oct 05, 2012 at 10:30:25 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I meant that I was an outsider, not you. (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    bontemps2012

                    I understand that you have a background in it.  I meant to say that I am an outsider, and explain my perspective on such groups from looking in.

                    I don't doubt that you have particular distaste for Mormonism (especially so if you've committed apostacy).  As far as I understand it, Mormonism fits into the definition of a 'cult' more than most religions.  Apart from Scientology.  That's why I compared the two.

                    I just meant to say that the line distinguishing between a cult and a religion is kind of blurry in the first place.  From my perspective as an outsider, there's not much a difference between those things, apart from degree of severity.  I don't know if there's any 'moderate' Mormons out there and I wouldn't be in a position to know that.  But I am open to the idea that there might be some.

                    Apart from that, I'm just a bit uncomfortable classing people as a 'them'.  It makes the group seem monolithic and unreachable to reason or thought.  It seems to me that few people are prone to lock-step obedience and rigid thinking.

                    •  There are "moderate" Mormons (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Paul Rogers, iburl

                      but if they are not totally observant they are shunned by those that do everything the Bishop asks of them. Including in some communities marrying off thirteen year old daughters to Forty year old men as extra wives. The Church disavows it but it shows the level of corruption their theology will tolerate and in fact is designed to do. Moderate Mormons are not allowed in the Temple where all the interesting rituals go on.

                      It is just not structured for people to be moderate. Rigid hierarchy is how it is set up. Every decision is made and everything you do from the moment you get out of bed to the second it hits the pillow is either school, family, or church. There is not time for you to get new ideas and critical thinking is actively discouraged.

                      This is part of the reason Romney comes off so cold everyone except a select few are totally indebted to him and must stay in his good graces. Since he became a Bishop people never question him. Ever. He literally has no experience being answerable to anyone.

                      Education is a progressive discovery of our own ignorance.

                      by Horace Boothroyd III on Fri Oct 05, 2012 at 11:00:17 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

        •  Romney was a Bishop of the LDS church (0+ / 0-)

          so I think that would qualify him as "out there". Bishops in LDS are the enforcers. One young woman has come forward telling her story of Romney the Bishop visiting her while she was pregnant and unmarried and he told her that she either gave the baby up or she would be shunned from the church. That is some hard line stuff. This woman wanted her child and was repeatedly pressured by Romney to give up her child. How's that for family values. The man is crazy. He has no interest in becoming President to help Americans - it's about his ego, a prize or perhaps he really thinks it's some crazy destiny.  

          "Today we say all art is political. But I'd say all art has to do with ethics. Which after all really comes to the same thing. It's a matter of attitudes." ~Ingmar Bergman

          by Digital Auteur on Sat Oct 13, 2012 at 10:01:38 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Prophet David Mckay rejected its principles (0+ / 0-)

        He said:

        “Next to being one in worshipping God there is nothing in this world upon which this Church should be
        more united than in upholding and defending the Constitution of the United States.”
        So a LDS prophet rejected a replacement of the U.S. Constitution with Mormon theology. This is the core of the alleged White Horse Prophecy.
        •  So slightly disputed. (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Smoh, bluedust, bontemps2012
          While I agree with Mr. Cobabe that the White Horse Prophecy is not germane to Mitt Romney’s white house bid, I don’t think it’s accurate to say that the prophecy “has been rejected by every church leader that has talked about it.”Brigham Young seemed to believe the prophecy was true. In 1855 he said,

              “…and when the Constitution of the United States hangs, as it were, upon a single thread, they will have to call for the ‘Mormon’ Elders to save it from utter destruction; and they will step forth and do it.” (Journal of Discourses 2:182; also Discourses of Brigham Young, 361)

          Thirteen years later, in 1868, Brigham Young again spoke in support of the White Horse Prophecy:

              “How long will it be before the words of the prophet Joseph will be fulfilled? He said if the Constitution of the United States were saved at all it must be done by this people. It will not be many years before these words come to pass.” (Journal of Discourses 12:204; also Discourses of Brigham Young, 360)

          Though the White Horse Prophecy has no place in modern-day Mormonism, there was a time when the prophet, seer and revelator of the LDS Church believed it — and preached it.

          Education is a progressive discovery of our own ignorance.

          by Horace Boothroyd III on Fri Oct 05, 2012 at 05:36:21 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  You just contradicted yourself with your quote (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Bob Duck

            I am talking about this portion:

            Though the White Horse Prophecy has no place in modern-day Mormonism, there was a time when the prophet, seer and revelator of the LDS Church believed it — and preached it.
            It has no place in modern day Mormonism.

            It is not a modern principle just as I said, it was partially rejected in 1918 and then fully many years later.  

        •  Prophet McKay restates a central aim of WHP. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          blueoasis

          There is nothing in WHP about replacing the Constitution with Smith's theology.

          Have you read it?

  •  Also take an HR for CT (0+ / 0-)

    You have been spreading this CT for some time now. I am referring to this:

    His driving killed a 57-year old mother of four. He was wide awake blaming the other driver, first thing the next morning.

    Then in 2006/2007 he invents being knocked into a "three day coma" in that accident for his authorized biography, "The Real Romney." If believed, that gets him off with respect to slandering that other driver, Bishop Jean Vilnet.

    I urge everyone who uprated the tipjar to take a look at these diaries on the same topic by the diarist. This one was HR'd for spreading the same CT:

    http://www.dailykos.com/...

    If that one was Hide-rated for the same CT, this one should be as well.

    •  Documentation for both diaries is extensive. (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      bluedust, blueoasis, cany, Timaeus

      -- We found the other driver from that 1968 automobile accident.
      -- His name is Bishop Jean Vilnet
      -- He was not at fault for the accident
      -- He was certainly not a "drunk priest" as he was driving two ladies home after Mass on a Sunday afternoon
      -- Local residents verified the collision site
      -- Romney drove head on into the oncoming Left Turn lane
      -- The articles have the photos

      The conflict between Romney's authorized biography, Romney's current campaign literature, and the next-day report of his status in Mrs. Anderson's obituary is hardly a matter of "conspiracy theory."

      -- The bio states: "three day coma"
      -- The campaign states: "concussion"
      -- The obituary states: "minor head injury"

      Every day, a new lie from Romney.

      He lied to the guys writing "The Real Romney" with no awareness that what they wrote would be researched.

      2012 is a money game.

      Trying to defend Romney ??? Good luck with that. Don't let Big Bird get you!

    •  Shawn HRing a posting does not in any way (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      bluedust, bontemps2012

      prove it false. If you want to call out a diaryist for stating something you believe untrue, you owe it to all of us to state clearly in response why you believe it to be incorrect. Only HRing proves nothing.

      BTW If you are going to quote LDS general authorities be very careful. Many mormon leaders have been known to be "rather lose with the truth" as they say. For example, many of them have asserted that none of the revelations have ever been changed, but a very cursory review shows this to be false.

      JMTB

      GOP - "Home of the Whopper!"

      by Templar on Fri Oct 05, 2012 at 05:43:55 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Sounds like quite the pile of bunkum to me n/t (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Shawn Russell, kurt
  •  Try White Horse's-Ass Prophecy... b/t (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bontemps2012, Calamity Jean, Bob Duck

    Float like a manhole cover, sting like a sash weight! Clean Coal Is A Clinker!

    by JeffW on Fri Oct 05, 2012 at 04:26:18 PM PDT

  •  Religion is pretty crazy like that. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bontemps2012

    I wonder if this idea would give a fundamentalist who hates Obama a bit of a pause in casting an anti-Obama vote.

  •  Relevant essay at Counterpunch (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bontemps2012, blueoasis

    talks about White Horse Prophesy....

    http://www.counterpunch.org/...

    "Here's another nice mess you've gotten me into." - Oliver Hardy

    by native on Fri Oct 05, 2012 at 05:20:49 PM PDT

    •  A paragraph of cut-and-paste: (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      blueoasis, native, Timaeus
      "Another interesting facet of Mormonism that has seen some light recently is the White Horse Prophecy. The basis of this prophecy comes from a diary entry made by John Roberts who related that Joseph Smith had prophesied in 1840 regarding the uncertain future of the United States and that, at a certain point, the Constitution would “hang by a thread” and the leaders of the LDS Church would come forth to protect and restore the Constitution. Despite the continued controversy regarding the authenticity of this account, the White Horse Prophecy has been embraced by Mormon culture. Mitt Romney has denied that it is part of his own beliefs, despite his father’s own stance on the subject (he felt that Mormons would, in fact, save the Constitution). Glenn Beck has referred to this in his own crazed rants over and over. The White Horse prophecy is embedded into the very fabric of Mormonism."

      -- Renato Wardle, Happy Valley, Utah

      Betcha the "Shawn Russell" person ain'ta gonna like that one bit.

      Still, Renato misses the darker side to WHP. What Saints and ex-Saints think about WHP depends on how much of the lore and side-stories they have been told.

  •  A couple of months ago Queen Ann remarked (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    blueoasis, Timaeus, bontemps2012

    that she wanted Mitt "to fulfill his destiny" whatever the hell that is supposed to mean. Could it be that Mitt has her convinced that he is the chosen one? Something to ponder.

    GOP - "Home of the Whopper!"

    by Templar on Fri Oct 05, 2012 at 05:48:40 PM PDT

    •  It probably has to do with his patriarchal (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      bontemps2012

      blessing. That, anyway, is what I strongly suspect.

      202-224-3121 to Congress in D.C. USE it! You can tell how big a person is by what it takes to discourage them. "We're not perfect, but they're nuts."--Barney Frank 01/02/2012

      by cany on Fri Oct 05, 2012 at 08:16:42 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  So Much Misinformation in This Diary (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Shawn Russell

    I have no idea where to start.  Sadly no time right now to give it the treatment it needs.  Hopefully, I'll be able to return to it in the next few days.

    So just a donut for now for blatant religious bigotry and complete misrepresentation of the subject.

    •  Those are mighty strong words to be (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      bontemps2012

      said without any support whatsoever. From what I've seen so far, I think you're wrong.

      •  Coming Soon: Mitt's Little Pony (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        bontemps2012, BlueEyed In NC
        Those are mighty strong words to be said without any support whatsoever.
        You are correct.  I thought long and hard before writing that post.  In the end I couldn't leave the diary stand without a donut.  And I couldn't give it a donut without a statement as to why.

        I do not want my response to be flip or unsupported.  So I've decided it will require a diary of it's own  -- which will need to be properly researched.  If I am able to finish it before comments on this diary close (I don't know how long that is), I will place a link to my response diary in this one.  If not, it will be forthcoming with the title "Mitt's Little Pony".

        •  Red Horse is violence. White Horse is lies. (0+ / 0-)

          Not sure about your "pony." Send a message when you post it. I never HR unless the writer combines personal attack with a call for violence or false witness.

          Reading Joseph Smith is generally unpleasant, compared with reading ordinary fiction or non-fiction. He puts his interest to emotional effect, to feelings that he can generate.

          It takes a concerted effort to connect the dots. Specific claims made in one part of his work have to be carried over to make sense of other later parts. He had one helluvan imagination.

          LDS is no help in this work, as the aims of secrecy and dissimulation set their boundaries minute by minute. They believe in an intrusive form of quality control over everyone else, but no QC for themselves. They are so close to God that they do not need it.

           

  •  When I played chess I bragged I could beat anyone. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bontemps2012

    And in the navy I was able to beat every one who played me. Now I never said I could beat them every time, just that if they played me several games I would beat them at some point.

    I got quite a few takers and can say I beat every one I played if we played at least a hslf dozen games. Most of the people I played knew after one or two games I was no chess master and their ego would take over. I watched their play and adjusted. I could play fast or slow and knew some chess rules some did not plus a few sneaky checkmate tricks.

    If they liked to play slow, I played fast. If they played fast, I played slow. By breaking up their comfort zone play I got them to make mistakes.

    Obama can do the same thing. Now that he sees and can tell when Mittens is making up whole cloth, Obama can change his tactics to account for that.

    Conservatives supported slavery, opposed women’s suffrage, supported Jim Crow, opposed the 40-hour work week, the abolishment of child labor, and supported McCarthyism. from 'It's The Conservatism, Stupid' by Paul Waldman July 12, 2006

    by arealniceguy on Fri Oct 05, 2012 at 10:00:06 PM PDT

    •  And now a freeware chess program (0+ / 0-)

      can whip your butt every game.

      It calculates faster than you do.

      Work on "White Horse Prophesy" formed up as its own project. Spawned out of a different research effort altogether.

      It's similar to the chess program.

      If this works as well as that freeware chess program, it is a useful resource. Guarantee you this: Obama, DNC, the pitiful leftie think tanks do not throw in the manpower necessary to sink teeth into the Far Right.

      Those guys have to hope and pray for the Heavens to open. For a "47%" video to appear. For Romney to strangle Big Bird on air.  For the GOP to nominate Mitt Romney in the first place.

  •  The Anti-Christ is promised 42 months (0+ / 0-)

    to have his way with the nations.

    How's that going?

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