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Public Policy Polling for Daily Kos & SEIU. 10/4-7. Likely voters. MoE ±2.72% (9/27-30 results)

The candidates for President are Democrat Barack Obama and Republican Mitt Romney. If the election was today, who would you vote for?

Obama 47 (49)
Romney 49 (45)

That's a pretty disastrous six-point net swing in just a week, and the first time we've ever had Romney in the lead. It is inline with all other national polling showing Romney making gains in the wake of his debate performance last week.

Both the Gallup and Rasmussen trackers saw their Romney bounce evaporate on Sunday. In this poll, 75 percent of the sample was gathered on Thursday and Friday, at the height of Romney's bounce. This is because PPP does call-backs: It identifies a random range of numbers and begins calling them on Thursday. If they get no answer, they keep trying the same numbers on subsequent days until they get the required number of responses (we ask for at least 1,000). This avoids the old tropes about young liberals being out partying on Friday nights, while conservatives are at church on Sunday mornings, etc.

So this week, 47 percent of responses were on Thursday, 28 percent on Friday, 17 percent on Saturday, and just 8 percent on Sunday. Romney won Thursday 49-48 and Friday 49-44 before losing steam over the weekend. While Romney won Thursday and Friday by a combined 2.5 points, he won Saturday and Sunday by just 0.5 percent.

So where did Romney gain? Among women, Obama went from a 15-point lead to a slimmer 51-45 edge. Meanwhile, Romney went from winning independents 44-41 to winning them 48-42. And just like the Ipsos poll showed last week, Romney further consolidated his base. They went from supporting him 85-13 last week, to 87-11 this week while Obama lost some Democrats, going from 88-9 last week, to 87-11 this week.

Several other polls, Pew chief among them, saw a big increase in the number of respondents self-identifying as Republicans—a sign of increased intensity on that side of the aisle. Our poll confirms that intensity boost. Last week, 65 percent of conservatives were "very excited" about voting this year. This week, it's 74 percent. That's a significant shift. Liberals also gained, but only marginally so, from 68 to 70 percent.

Clearly, none of this is irreversible, and it'll bear watching the daily trackers to see if Romney continues to fade or not. And obviously, next week's numbers will further clarify the shape of the race.

Regardless, it shows that Obama's debate performance was an epic blunder. Romney gave his partisans a reason to get excited about him and they've responded. It should come as no surprise that people like to fight for people who are fighting for them.

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Comment Preferences

      •  Oh, stop it. (30+ / 0-)

        Even Rasmussen gives President Obama 237 electoral votes, and that's without Ohio, New Hampshire, and Wisconsin, three states which we have no reason to think won't be colored blue on Nov. 6.

        That brings Obama to 269.

        Virginia. North Carolina. Florida. Iowa. Colorado. Nevada.

        Obama has to win one of those states to get re-elected.

        Gov. Romney has to win all of them.

        Make phone calls, knock on doors, and donate, but keep in mind that our path to 270 is much easier.

        How about I believe in the unlucky ones?

        by BenderRodriguez on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 05:15:18 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I wouldn't count on Wisconsin (8+ / 0-)

          Wisconsin is nowhere near a sure thing.  During a trip there last week I saw almost no Obama signs/stickers.  After the Walker debacle, I wouldn't predict one way or another.  And, the polls have tightened to within MOE.

          And, Ohio requests for absentee ballots by Dems are down while requests from Repubs are up substantially.  Total requests, so far, are about half what they were in 2008.  If it is any sign of voter turnout, it is not a good sign for Obama.

          •  Do you live in either state? n/t (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            politicalceci, daeros, George3
            •  What does that matter? (6+ / 0-)

              I live in northern Illinois, for what it's worth.

              But, I think I know Wisconsin well enough, and talk to many Wisconsin residents enough to know Ryan will likely take Mitt over the top with Wisconsin voters.  He's very popular in his district which is mostly blue.

              Depending how he does on Thursday, that may cinch it.

              •  It would be great (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                boofdah, keetz4, daeros

                if residents of these states weighed in. They would have the best sense of what is happening on the ground.

                Your comments that I've seen are hypercritical of President Obama. That makes me suspicious of your intent. Pardon me if I'm in error. I have excellent instincts, though.

                •  Wisconsin residents have weighed in over (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  CocoaLove, keetz4

                  and over on this site and say the exact opposite of what he is saying.

                  "Southern nights have you ever felt a southern night?" Allen Toussaint ~~Remember the Gulf of Mexico~~

                  by rubyr on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 07:26:28 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Ruby (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    rubyr, daeros

                    I know. That's why I asked where he lived. Something does not smell right.

                    •  CocoaLove, there are a lot of people on this (5+ / 0-)

                      site that loathe Obama and always have because he didn't become a raging liberal and fix all the mess the Repugs made in 8 years by 30 days after the Inauguration. They were silent for awhile when Obama was doing well but now that there is a glitch in the works, they are out in all of their sniveling glory. Repugs do not have these type of people in their party. They are loyal.

                      "Southern nights have you ever felt a southern night?" Allen Toussaint ~~Remember the Gulf of Mexico~~

                      by rubyr on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 08:03:57 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  Wisconsinite here (6+ / 0-)

                      Jerry J isn't entirely wrong. Those of us most active in Wisconsin politics (i.e. the Capitol protesters, Walker recallers, etc) can become so immersed in supporters we can forget there is an ocean of ignorance out there (with a few seas of we-know-but-don't-care-because-we're-rich).

                      During the recall, it was easy to believe turnout on our side would carry the day. That didn't happen (the turnout did; the carrying, not so much), and for many it was that much more disappointing for having believed the opposite.

                      I reject the premise that an outside observer wouldn't know as much as those within. The argument smacks of the sports fan dismissing analysis from anyone not a fan of the team in question (what do you know? You're not even a fan of the 49ers!).

                      As it is, I agree with Jerry J: Wisconsin is no sure thing. Now, if this mighty swing toward Romney is true, it will be equally swingy when the President wipes the floor with him in the next two debates. So, the state of the state is tenuous - for now. I'm not particularly worried, but I am particularly motivated.

                      The problem with going with your gut as opposed to your head is that the former is so often full of shit. - Randy Chestnut

                      by lotusmaglite on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 08:27:51 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  Please don't do this (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      JVolvo
                      I know. That's why I asked where he lived. Something does not smell right.
                      If your fellow Kossacks disagree with you, please do not allege that something does not "smell right" about them.  

                      It is not appropriate to allege that other Kossacks are shills or otherwise not what they seem, at least not without evidence to back it up.

                      My head says "No" but my heart says "Yes". And then my liver says "What?" and my butt's all like "Farrrrrrt" --jbou

                      by Caj on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 11:17:05 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                  •  ??? Ask still-Mayor of MKE Barrett how that works (7+ / 0-)

                    WI is not locked up.
                    Baldwin for Senate is not locked up.

                    We're the reality-based community, remember?

                    The GOP says you have to have an ID to vote, but $ Millionaire donors should remain anonymous?

                    by JVolvo on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 08:32:48 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

              •  I also live in Illinois and in August I attended a (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                boofdah, keetz4, JVolvo

                wedding in of all places, Janesville Wisconsin! The Rotary Bontanical Garden was beautiful and I did not see any great love for the Ryan! Of course I was only there for 2 days...I talked to a lot of people just to see what they think. I never gave any hint that I was a Democrat. I just cannot understand how just one, bad it was, debate turned so many people? voters have to remember once RR are elected, there is no, NEVER MIND!

              •  Ryan is not as well liked here in Wisconsin (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                daeros, peregrine kate

                as you think he is.

                remember to use positive affirmations. "i am not a dork" is not one of them

                by Altoid77 on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 08:15:39 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  WI is not a done deal. Ask still-Mayor Barrett. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              daeros, Victor Ward

              PS Your question is irrelevant.  Markos doesn't live in OH, either.

              The GOP says you have to have an ID to vote, but $ Millionaire donors should remain anonymous?

              by JVolvo on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 06:34:13 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  Womp womp womp (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            daeros, BenderRodriguez, thurst, JVolvo

            Yard signs and stickers vote right? If I brought a sticker abroad, would it mail in an absentee ballot?

            NY-14, DC-AL (College), Former SSPer and incredibly distraught Mets fan.

            by nycyoungin on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 06:12:44 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Many people who write on this site about (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            boofdah, Altoid77, Buckeye Nation, daeros

            Wisconsin continually and who live there have reported over and over the exact opposite of what you are saying. I think they know better since as a group they cover a huge part of the state. How much area are you talking about where you saw no Obama signs? Was it a Republican area? You are stating as fact something that you have no basis for.

            How do you know requests for Ohio ballots are down? Do you work for Ohio SOS? Could we have something to substantiate that claim. Maybe a few links?

            "Southern nights have you ever felt a southern night?" Allen Toussaint ~~Remember the Gulf of Mexico~~

            by rubyr on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 07:24:31 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  What do you expect from Wisconsin kossacks? (5+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              JVolvo, sneakers563, daeros, Caj, Victor Ward

              Sorry.. but I highly doubt you are seeing a true cross section of residents in any state here at dKos.

            •  here ya go.. (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              cameoanne, FightingRegistrar, JVolvo

              AP article...

              Romney cuts into Obama's early voter advantage
              North Carolina:

              Among the 29,400 voters who have cast absentee ballots in North Carolina, 54 percent are registered Republicans and 28 percent are Democrats, according to the United States Elections Project at George Mason University.

              It's a small sample — more than 2.6 million people voted before Election Day in North Carolina in 2008. And these are all mail ballots, which have historically favored Republicans; in-person voting starts Oct. 18 in North Carolina. Nevertheless, Republicans are encouraged because McCain lost the state's early vote by 11 percentage points.

              McCain lost early votes by 11 pts..  Repubs are up over Dems by 26%.. It is a trend that, as the article implies, will likely reverse.. but the magnitude of the gap 30 days before election is hard to ignore..

              Ohio:
              In 2008 Dems had a 15 point lead over Repubs in absentee ballot requests.  Dem requests are down and GOP requests are up.  Now there is only a 6 point lead for Dems.

              In Ohio, a perennial battleground state, Democrats have an edge over Republicans among people who have requested absentee ballots, though relatively few completed ballots have been submitted. Among the 691,000 people who have requested absentee ballots in 49 of the state's 88 counties, 30 percent are Democrats and 24 percent are Republicans. Forty-six percent are unaffiliated voters, according to data collected by the AP.
              Dems have always had this edge.,.. what the article doesn't say is how much that edge has shrunk so far this year.

              Now.. raw data..
              (Remember to read the caveats..)

              Raw Data - 2012 vs. 2008 Ohio Absentee Ballot Requests

              So.. none of this is definitive..  but if you take into account party enthusiasm, add this absentee data and and then factor in all the other little anecdotal pieces of information, you have to come to the conclusion that it will be a much tighter race in some of these battleground states than the poll numbers show.

              And we still have 3 more debates to go!

              .............
              Kossacks reporting the exact opposite in Wisconsin? Really!
              Are those the same kossacks who reported a big loss for Walker in June?

              •  Thanks much! However, doesn't Ohio have (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                rubyr

                open primaries?  The D/R thing doesn't necessarily tell us that much because the ballots requested are sorted by the last primary someone voted in.  Quite a few Dems voted in the Ohio primary as I recall.

                Also, there are a lot of staunchly Republican counties that didn't participate in the reporting of ballot requests in 2008 that are doing so now.  In reality, if you include all those counties from 2008, it probably wasn't D +15.

                I say we wait until we get closer to the election before making apples to apples comparisons in Ohio.

                •  Yes.. the warning on the right side of the raw (0+ / 0-)

                  data goes into that.  It is iffy.. but as I said, taken along with other hints and trends, there should be concern about all these battleground states.  Dems should not get complacent.

              •  B-b-but (something something that somehow (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                rubyr

                refutes the data).  So there!

                The GOP says you have to have an ID to vote, but $ Millionaire donors should remain anonymous?

                by JVolvo on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 12:06:39 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Goodness me!!! We have a bona fide seer amongst us (0+ / 0-)

                "Southern nights have you ever felt a southern night?" Allen Toussaint ~~Remember the Gulf of Mexico~~

                by rubyr on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 03:16:42 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  And yet the President just had the (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            daeros

            largest rally to date there last week, the day after the debate no less.
            30,000 Wisconsinites to listen to Obama at Madison UW.

            "...I just want you to know there are BILLIONS of us rooting for you..." Sir Paul McCartney

            by eden4barack08 on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 08:58:02 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  All I know about Wisconsin (0+ / 0-)

            is that the President is spending a lot of money on GOTV.

            He is poaching Minnesota because we, frankly, are a lock.

            I volunteer in Minnesota and we have lost two interns to Wisconsin. They were paying positions, so I can't blame them.

            Besides, one went to Hudson, Wisconsin, which is absolutely gorgeous this time of year. If I were her age (20s), I would have totally done it.

        •  Wait, let me guess. You think this poll is skewed? (7+ / 0-)

          All along the polls showing a lead were fine and good news but now that Rmoney's debate bounce is verified it's ho hum?

          Riiiiight.

          The GOP says you have to have an ID to vote, but $ Millionaire donors should remain anonymous?

          by JVolvo on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 06:32:18 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Obama will now only win (8+ / 0-)

          if he does what he should have done in the first debate,argue with passion and slam Romney on his lies, as well as looking into the camera this time. I am pissed Obama is being a nice guy to republicans again, even know they hate him and are  destroying the country. If he does not change in this next debate I will believe that he's throwing the race for big money. No excuses!

          "America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between" Oscar Wilde

          by angry hopeful liberal on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 06:33:29 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  I wouldn't count on North Carolina (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          JVolvo

          ... and, yes, I live in North Carolina.

        •  Ohio (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          JVolvo, George Hier

          You seriously can't think of any reason why Ohio might end up in the Republican column?

          How about these-

          1) In 2010, the Republicans won every single statewide race- the Ohio Senate seat, Governor race, AG, Treasurer, Secretary of State and 13 out of 18 House races, defeating 5 incumbent House members in the process.

          2) Ohio went to Bush in both 2004 and 2000.

          3) Near as I can tell, the polls taken in October show results of R+1, R+1, and D+1.  (I also saw a reference to a local NBC affiliate doing a poll that shows it tied, but no reference to who actually did the polling).  Real Clear Politics shows it as Obama +1.7, which includes a September NBC/WSJ poll that was +8.  Nate Silver has it stronger, with an adjusted average of Obama +3.1, but he hasn't updated since last night at 9:00, and doesn't include today ARG poll of Romney +1, and does still include to good results for Obama from September.  (I also believe his model makes adjustment based on national polling, which has shifted to Romney in the past 24 hours).

          None of this is to say that Ohio is a lost cause for Obama, far from it.  It is the ultimate swing state- whoever wins it likely will win the election, and right now it is pretty close to 50/50.  

          But to just include it's electoral votes as a given is overly optimisitic.  Iowa is probably more of a lock than Ohio, and you grouped that with the other swing states.

          The best pizza comes from New York.

          by JakeC on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 10:59:07 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Where was Obama since last Sat, while (3+ / 0-)

        Romney campaigned? Approving these senseless and utterly useless Big Bird ads?

      •  Stop deciding on DOOM after a few days of polls (23+ / 0-)

        Wait a week and let things stabilize.  If things still look like this in a week, THEN worry.  I'll bet you a box of Rice Krispies that things look better in a week.  

        Remember, the opponent is still the Gaffe-o-matic 4000 (with built-in etch-a-sketch).

        •  stop telling other people what to do (11+ / 0-)

          it's obvious the debate hurt. how much, how long-term depends on a lot of things, like what happens next.

          but it's clear this was a needless self-inflicted wound.

          they need to wake the F up, like the man in the video said.

          An ambulance can only go so fast - Neil Young

          by mightymouse on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 05:21:06 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Okay, then. I won't tell you a thing. (12+ / 0-)

            Panic and have fun doing it.  It's what we do best around here.  

            But when the house is on fire, I hope the people around me are willing to pick up buckets and fight it with me, not scream and run in circles.  And when the fire goes out, I hope they're ready to help rebuild, not stand around moaning about the stuff that's ashes.

            •  If your house is on fire (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Hatrax, auapplemac

              you'll try to put it out with buckets?  I'd call the fire department, myself.

              Ever get the feeling you've been cheated?

              by ActivistGuy on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 05:59:34 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  idiots. (11+ / 0-)

              MSNBC running around with it's head cut off. Kos running around with it's head cut off. Don't you realize all of this panic is only feeding them? if Chris matthew's and those dipshits on MSNBC had just been smart and said fuck the conventional wisdom and fuck the public they're wrong Look at this and tore into mitt romney instead of critcizing obamas performance for a whole fucking couple of days this shit wouldn't even be close. The more you panic the more you're giving it to them.

              The public is wrong. The panic is wrong. The CW is wrong. Even if we lose the popular vote we're going to win the electoral college and that will be a beautiful form of poetic justice. I will laugh.

              http://www.actblue.com/page/accountabilitynow If the dnc dscc or dccc send you mailers, send that link back to them and tell them you won't send money to people who defend democrats who betray progressive principals! up yours!

              by daeros on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 06:01:06 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  further more i'm not scared of a "southern riot" (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                keetz4, emobile

                if that happens. Blue states will just cut off funding and leave them to fend for themselves and fi they declare war we'll fight it from the skies.

                http://www.actblue.com/page/accountabilitynow If the dnc dscc or dccc send you mailers, send that link back to them and tell them you won't send money to people who defend democrats who betray progressive principals! up yours!

                by daeros on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 06:01:58 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  "southern riot" ?? What are you talking about? (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Charles Hall
                  •  everyone is terrified of us winning the electroal (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    keetz4

                    but not the popular because "The south will rise again" and how bad it was when we won OUTRIGHTEDLY, imagine how bad it would get if we won WITHOUT The popular vote?

                    they might even try and seceed-let them.

                    http://www.actblue.com/page/accountabilitynow If the dnc dscc or dccc send you mailers, send that link back to them and tell them you won't send money to people who defend democrats who betray progressive principals! up yours!

                    by daeros on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 06:36:05 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

              •  Funny. Everyone is wrong. Including those women (5+ / 0-)

                and independents who answered the PPP poll?

                Maybe you missed Axlerod's comments?   I guess he's a panicking dipshit, too?

                "Even if we lose the popular vote..."

                Wow.

                The GOP says you have to have an ID to vote, but $ Millionaire donors should remain anonymous?

                by JVolvo on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 06:40:26 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Argumentium ad populum (0+ / 0-)

                  http://www.actblue.com/page/accountabilitynow If the dnc dscc or dccc send you mailers, send that link back to them and tell them you won't send money to people who defend democrats who betray progressive principals! up yours!

                  by daeros on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 06:50:48 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  axelrod is wrong (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Steve Magruder

                  because romney appeared a jittery & nervous and was desperate to make anything stick and obama looked cool and collected. In our country people seem to think "wanting it more" is all that counts. Obama didn't fight all that hard for it but the thing is that just made Romney look unbalanced. He was trying too hard. He kept swallowing, his eyes were doe like, they looked like someone had poored water on them and he was trying to win points just for smiling more than obama did, but underneath the makeup you could see he kept swallowing and shaking like a nervous twit.

                  The fact is obama's lack of contesting it and romney's fighting so hard for it just made me think Romney was going to teeter completely over the edge and out of control. I'm sorry. The analyst are only looking at How fevered his attack was. The fact that he kept attacking like a battering ram made him look like a dangerous lunatic who would shoot first and ask questions later-much like Bush was. He is unbalanced overly aggressive. The kind of aggressive that Nukes countries on a moments glance. This is not the kind of man you want in the white house.

                  http://www.actblue.com/page/accountabilitynow If the dnc dscc or dccc send you mailers, send that link back to them and tell them you won't send money to people who defend democrats who betray progressive principals! up yours!

                  by daeros on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 06:54:50 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  ??? Of Course I don't want Mitt in the White House (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    auapplemac

                    Duh.

                    TV "debates" are about optics.  Romney was Strong (while lying - but undecideds are not political junkies, right?) and POTUS was not.

                    We all wanted/expected the RomnetBott Gaff-tronic to show up.  He most certainly didn't.

                    Your perception of the optics are not reflected in the multiple polls showing Romney's debate surge.

                    Maybe POTUS will bring his A-game next time.

                    The GOP says you have to have an ID to vote, but $ Millionaire donors should remain anonymous?

                    by JVolvo on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 08:54:42 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  all i'm saying is individual perception does not (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Ritter

                      have to match with the convential wisdom. I realize the polls matter. But my saying "Axelrod is wrong" is my saying that he's wrong about his perception of "Romney as strong" and too is the public. it matters that they THINK that way, but it doesn't inform my opinion a twit. I don't care how much of an entrenched minority I end up being.

                      my earlier point was this: this is all completely farcical and irrelevant. All we're doing is panicing because we lost a debate. Stop it. The polls don't matter: only who's GOTV effort is better. EVERYONE HERE is WASTING TIME if they're that convinced. We need you on GOTV and NOT out here SPOUTING about how this is a LOSS and OH GOD WHATS GOING TO HAPPEN COME NOVEMBER

                      Axelrod might be completely right about how the "public" saw events. Doesn't matter. Get back on your horse and start fighting. That's all.

                      http://www.actblue.com/page/accountabilitynow If the dnc dscc or dccc send you mailers, send that link back to them and tell them you won't send money to people who defend democrats who betray progressive principals! up yours!

                      by daeros on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 09:38:28 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                •  All the polls (5+ / 0-)

                  show the same. Obama had two very shitty polling days, thursday and friday. Rasmussen and Gallup both show Romney's bounce disappeared by the weekend. And according to Markos PPP showed the same trend, with a smaller sample for saturday and sunday.

                  PEW did his bulk from the polling on thursday and friday.

                  Conclusion Romney had a big bounce for 2 days, that seems to have disappeared again.

                  I wanted to say we are waiting for confirmation, but I realize that by the time we will get that data, the VP debate will have taken place, setting the stage for another round of confusion and hysteria.

                  The only thing I've learned so far is that snap polls only give information about the mood during a very brief time period.

              •  A million or two people watch MSNBC (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                daeros, auapplemac

                60 million saw the debate.

                But, yes, everyone should try to calm down.

                I don't mind straight people as long as they act gay in public.

                by internationaljock on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 08:26:56 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I'm concerned that there's a demoralizing affect (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Steve Magruder

                  on people about who won the debate simply because a large majority of people thought he won. how many people are just voting based on the consensus at this point? How many people's perception of events was actually shifted by that debate and hoqw many by the polls themselves? That's my concern. Americans don't like to be "wrong" according to most. It's our GREATEST fear that we're in the minortiy on something. Well guess what? There are others who agree. this was not A romney victory in MY mind. My mind doesn't matter campaign wise but still.

                  http://www.actblue.com/page/accountabilitynow If the dnc dscc or dccc send you mailers, send that link back to them and tell them you won't send money to people who defend democrats who betray progressive principals! up yours!

                  by daeros on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 09:41:16 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  Given MSNBC is mostly speaking to the choir (0+ / 0-)

                I don't see how it affects the general publics opinion.

                It may dampen the enthusiasm of those who would otherwise work to get the Prez reelected including donations.

                It’s the Supreme Court, stupid! Followed by: It's always the Supreme Court! Progressives will win only when we convince a majority that they, too, are Progressive.

                by auapplemac on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 09:48:20 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  idiots. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Ritter

                totatlly agree with you here. I was stunned that instead of
                a logical calm report of the debate, Mathews, Schultz and, Maddow went crazy, their heads exploded. It is not about denial it s about MSNBC giving aid and comfort to romney. Can we stipulate that romney won on the optics and this is what is "conventionaly" considered the most important factor?
                I've been coming to this site for many many years, lurking and, reading. I have seen the type of fearful reactions to bad news before but, I have never seen it last so long after level headed people here have repeatedly pointed out among other facts that the first debate was only 25% of a 100 mile journey, Sure the swing to romney is large but, that's precisely because Obama lost: he lost on the optics.

                Remember the right wing also knows that romney lied. But as in everything else that has no weight unless it goes against them. Their greates glee and enthusiasm is being derived from the left's self imolation. That's my opnion.
                My first post here and, I'm happy to be here.

                romney = GOPperhead (the art of baffling with bullshit)(7)∞

                by longtimelurker on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 10:15:56 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  not panicking here (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Hatrax

              but thanks for your concern, hey.

              An ambulance can only go so fast - Neil Young

              by mightymouse on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 06:09:31 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  We are putting our hopes (12+ / 0-)

          into the President having one good night.

          The entire election down to one night.

          If he doesn't clean Romney's clock, he's toast.

          And so are we.

          This didn't need to be this close.

        •  It's not the summer! The election is only (0+ / 0-)

          a month away.

          Romney has been given the breath of life. People are listening to him again. He looks and sounds Presidential (doesn't much matter what comes out of his mouth as long as it "sounds" like he's in control).

          We can only hope for another 47% moment, but I wouldn't count on it. The R's seem to be one a roll and have gotten their sea legs. They'll keep Romney on track not allowing him to be extemporaneous

          So far the better jobs numbers don't seem to have a great effect. The fact that the numbers have been called into questions, dampens the impact. Yes, it's  BS but most people don't understand how it's calculated so any mud is libel to stick.

          I do feel a chill has come over the country in it's acceptance of Obama being reelected. God I hope I'm wrong!

          It’s the Supreme Court, stupid! Followed by: It's always the Supreme Court! Progressives will win only when we convince a majority that they, too, are Progressive.

          by auapplemac on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 09:45:11 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  But the 47% moment can be the gift that keeps (0+ / 0-)

            on giving.  Those were powerfully awful words that Romney uttered.

            Democrats can play the repetition game on this one.

            •  But it's old news. Didn't you see the bright newly (0+ / 0-)

              minted Mitt say he loves everyone! He cares for 5000% of us! I saw him say it last wee, so it must be true.

              It’s the Supreme Court, stupid! Followed by: It's always the Supreme Court! Progressives will win only when we convince a majority that they, too, are Progressive.

              by auapplemac on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 03:31:09 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  In case you're not being sarcastic, I must (0+ / 0-)

                disagree.

                That raw video was the real Romney, and I think our side commits political malpractice by not using bits/pieces from that video to make continual points like Chinese water torture.

                Sure, have other ads that go after Romney in new ways.  But never let go of the gold from the video.  Never.

                •  "Bright newly minted Mitt" should have raised (0+ / 0-)

                  the snark flag.

                  It’s the Supreme Court, stupid! Followed by: It's always the Supreme Court! Progressives will win only when we convince a majority that they, too, are Progressive.

                  by auapplemac on Wed Oct 10, 2012 at 03:39:30 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

    •  Hello? Wimp-Mart? (13+ / 0-)

      Yeah, it's Hatrax.  Yeah, from Daily Kos.  AGAIN.  Yeah, I know, the Doomers are out in force, huh?  They still haven't settled down... yeah, I know, but we're Democrats, ya know?  It's in our nature to panic.  

      Anyway, I'll be needing sixty cases of smelling salts, a dozen more fainting couches, a couple bottles of cod liver oil... some syrup of ipecac... oh yeah, and throw in a gross of those pearl strings.  Yeah, looks like some of the more panicky ones crushed them to powder or swallowed them or something.  Yeah, put it on Kos's credit card... oh, shoot!  Almost forgot.  Gimme five more pallets of adult diapers, too.  Yeah, that'll do it.  And yeah, we're gonna win this thing, so this will hopefully be our last order until 2014.  

    •  Hello? (5+ / 0-)

      Kerry won all the debates with W.  Do you remember a President Kerry?  Yes, I'm upset that Mitt the bold face liar is moving up, but let's not think it's over.

      •  Here's the thing (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        equern, auapplemac, George Hier

        about that: do you remember the exit polls in 2004 that showed Kerry was the likely winner? Do you remember voting issues in Ohio - yes, that Ohio, under Ken Blackwell as secretary of state - that caused problems in primarily Democratic areas? Guess what - this time those potential issues are weighted in the Republican's favor - as it did that time.
        Everyone keeps trying to remake this election a 2004 do-over - but it's not. It's its own beast.
        The biggest concern to me in these polls is the drop-off in enthusiasm for Dems, who had been fired up after the convention. The Republicans already hate Obama and would vote for a dead dog (am I comparing Romney to a dead dog? Guess it rode on the roof too long) if they thought it would get Obama out of there.
        The overall polls may not mean much, but there are some very concerning trends deeper in the information.
        It's not over, but it should be a damned clarion call.

        Diversity may be the hardest thing for a society to live with, and perhaps the most dangerous thing for a society to be without - W S Coffin

        by stitchmd on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 08:16:49 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  And STOP with the Big Bird thing!!! (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          stitchmd, auapplemac

          If the only thing Obama can find to fight Romney with is Big Bird, all he's going to be left with is a lot of yellow feathers.

          Cut out the nonsense, let's talk about something meaningful, like Romney's LIES.

          What separates us, divides us, and diminishes the human spirit.

          by equern on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 09:34:29 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Obama Has Been Fighting for Me...... (30+ / 0-)

    Since Jan 2008....Still Fired Up.

    "It should come as no surprise that people like to fight for people who are fighting for them."
    •  But... but.. It may yet be... (14+ / 0-)

      If we can stop looking for instant gratification and wake a f**cking week for the numbers to stabilize again.  Lots of Romney lies, good jobs numbers, Big Bird, people cooling off after an emotional debate, couch-fainters waking up and getting back to work.  Wait and see, wait and see.

    •  The point is, we have to make it a win. That is, (6+ / 0-)

      the Dems who can get at least a split second in the media should be working to make it a win.
      The win has to do with the fact that Romney lied a lot, and that's on tape. That's not going away. That can be reused.

      If people are determined to follow an Orwellian Pied-Piper back to the Bush years, there's not much we can do to stop them.
      However, I think most people will face facts and make a more or less rational decision.

      There needs to be tight messaging behind the President among all Dems. Take the polls for what they are and move on. Don't keep moaning and groaning about the debate performance. It was a failure. I'm sure the Obama camp is aware of that.

      The debate can be a win for the President, in the long run, but it's going to take hard work and it's going to take leveraging Romney's total lack of honesty

      Valuable time was lost with a bunch of handwringing, and it began with R.Maddow and Ed Shultz, who should have reported the Prez' poor performance, then focused the rest of their comments on how outrageously Romney lied. Dems will never learn.

      You can't make this stuff up.

      by David54 on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 05:21:29 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  They had a lot to do with it. Twitter was talanna (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        elmo, David54, daeros

        About big bird and lies.  And them boom, msnbc declares disaster.  Not even Fox was rejoicing at that point.  All of the focus groups in real time showed and Obama win.

        So what changed the conventional wisdom.  And Democrats played along, this the huge number of Dems that said Romney won.  

        But guess what, they still will vote for the President.  That I why I don't see the performance as a bet negative yet.  Dems can still frame it as a win when the polls bounce back.

        “Mitt Romney is the only person in America who looked at the way this Congress is behaving and said, ‘I want the brains behind THAT operation.’ ” Former Democratic Congressman - Tom Perriello "Small Businesses Don't Build Levees" - MHP

        by justmy2 on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 05:29:03 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Is talanna really a word iPhone? (5+ / 0-)

          Talking.

          “Mitt Romney is the only person in America who looked at the way this Congress is behaving and said, ‘I want the brains behind THAT operation.’ ” Former Democratic Congressman - Tom Perriello "Small Businesses Don't Build Levees" - MHP

          by justmy2 on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 05:30:07 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Dems need to frame it as a win before the polls (6+ / 0-)

          bounce back. They should be attacking Romney as a liar 24/7, and they shouldn't let up.
          Rachel et al should have gone "Romney just broke the record for lying. Yes, Obama lost on style, but I've never seen such lying as that before, and I've been covering the Romney campaign since it began." Etc.
          As bad as Obama's performance was, the rest of the Dems have performed as badly.

          Dems never learn. If you're in a gang fight, and your leader of your gang gets knocked down, you don't start kicking him. You fight harder until he's back on his feet.

          The gop are thugs. They're criminals. Literally.

          The fact is, we can fight with the truth. We have the facts on our side. We have reality on our side.

          You can't make this stuff up.

          by David54 on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 06:02:16 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  wow...was that comment just an unadulterated (0+ / 0-)

          iphone disaster....yikes..

          “Mitt Romney is the only person in America who looked at the way this Congress is behaving and said, ‘I want the brains behind THAT operation.’ ” Former Democratic Congressman - Tom Perriello "Small Businesses Don't Build Levees" - MHP

          by justmy2 on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 09:19:47 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Even the Obama people were calling it a Romney win (8+ / 0-)

        ..five seconds after the debate, if only on 'style'. Style points do matter in debates though. Looking disinterested, or disengaged is poison.

        •  Style is ALL in tv debates (8+ / 0-)

          This has been understood since the very first Kennedy-Nixon debate, where people watching on tv thought Kennedy was the winner, while those listening on radio (which in those days was an only slightly smaller  number) thought Nixon won.

          Ever get the feeling you've been cheated?

          by ActivistGuy on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 06:07:11 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  style? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          politicalceci

          he looked fevered and desperate. he kept attacking like a machine desperate for something to stick and looked down right nervous. he kept swallowing.

          http://www.actblue.com/page/accountabilitynow If the dnc dscc or dccc send you mailers, send that link back to them and tell them you won't send money to people who defend democrats who betray progressive principals! up yours!

          by daeros on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 06:09:28 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Sometimes wanting it more is all that it takes (5+ / 0-)

            ..against a lackadaisical opponent.

            •  do I live in a country of morons? (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              boofdah, keetz4

              Seriously. He wants it more so he deserves the white house? are you kidding me? I bet you anything I want the presidency more than Romney.

              http://www.actblue.com/page/accountabilitynow If the dnc dscc or dccc send you mailers, send that link back to them and tell them you won't send money to people who defend democrats who betray progressive principals! up yours!

              by daeros on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 06:23:28 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  In the context of a debate, yes. (9+ / 0-)

                Showing up is important.

                Obama didn't. And it cost him.

              •  Get a grip and put the strawman down. To the (7+ / 0-)

                independents, low-info and undecided viewers watching on tv, Romney won big time.  The multiple polls across the spectrum confirm this.

                Strong and wrong (and pushy and lying) often win over distracted, low-energy and thoughtful when it comes to optics.  And this was on tv, you see.

                The GOP says you have to have an ID to vote, but $ Millionaire donors should remain anonymous?

                by JVolvo on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 06:57:11 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I feel like someone has to travel around downtown (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  JVolvo

                  Undecidedville with a megaphone and start screaming about the last 50 years of history with the GOP and just lay it out: So with all of this known you should know that in 2012 republicans are trying to screw you over. But if you want to know who to vote for just look at the letter by their name. Is it an R? then they don't have your best interest in mind. They might have, like ....40+ years ago. not anymore.

                  I'm sorry. I'm tired of the uneducated masses. I don't even know how to find this mythical cult of them and talk to them about how things really are. They are in desperate need of a progressive education. About how they tried to filibuster the treaty that ended world war I and  sabotaged the american league of nations because it would give the president war powers and god forbid a leftist have that but then stonewalled and stopped FDR from doing anything about Hitler until it turned into a massive scale problem. Imagine what would have happened if we had crushed  Hitler The moment he invaded Poland.. how many millions of lives would have been saved?

                  Or about how mccarthy labeled us all communist until Edward R Murrow made McCarrthy Shut up?

                  Or how the New deal by FDR Pulled our country out of the great depression while the republicans sat back and tried to sabotage it?

                  And how they after being so thoroughly refuted for decades decided to brainwash the southern churches against their own interest by convincing them gays and abortion was the hot button issue when in fact their real motive was to divide and conquer so they could siphon the money off?

                  Or how all of the stuff about Tax collections increasing with tax cuts is a myth because tax cuts actually don't spur growth and the "Reagan doubled collections" thing is a myth because some of the taxes included were actually hiked? FICA, for instance.

                  How every "Democratic recession" was triggered by republican cuts in taxes and you can look at the former republican administration for who to blame?

                  How the austrian school of economics and the neoclassicals are just plain and bloody wrong and ballantly refuted by neurology and psychology.

                  Or how every time we get bipartisan control of ANYTHING they offer amendments to make it look like they'll vote for the bill but the amendment is only designed to make the far left abandon the bill and then they vote against it too?

                  My point is this: if you don't know your history, why are you voting? I vote straight ticket for a reason.... The gop as best as I can tell hasn't been right about much at all for nearly 100 years now. Except MAYBE Teddy and Ike.

                  I'm 26 btw. I knew all of this 3 years ago.

                  http://www.actblue.com/page/accountabilitynow If the dnc dscc or dccc send you mailers, send that link back to them and tell them you won't send money to people who defend democrats who betray progressive principals! up yours!

                  by daeros on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 09:57:44 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  this will be as true in 2054 about them as it is (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    JVolvo

                    right now. That's what they need to know.

                    http://www.actblue.com/page/accountabilitynow If the dnc dscc or dccc send you mailers, send that link back to them and tell them you won't send money to people who defend democrats who betray progressive principals! up yours!

                    by daeros on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 09:58:26 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  Know history, or be condemned to repeat it. (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    daeros, JVolvo

                    Unfortunately, too many fellow 'merkins
                    - don't know their history
                    - don't care about history
                    - don't think they can make a difference to history

                    And inadequate or skewed education, along with decades of consumerist indoctrination does not help.

                    "..The political class cannot solve the problems it created. " - Jay Rosen

                    by New Rule on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 10:19:00 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  All they need to know is USA USA USA! (0+ / 0-)

                      As a long-time (amateur) history buff I know this: EVERY city/region/kingdom/empire in our world's history that ruled those around it eventually fell to decline/defeat/decay.  Every one.  China has cycled back towards the top of the heap and that only took 4,600 years from the Yellow Emperor's reign

                      We just happen to be a loud 236 year old punk who hasn't  gotten rolled yet.

                      The GOP says you have to have an ID to vote, but $ Millionaire donors should remain anonymous?

                      by JVolvo on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 12:19:02 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                  •  Awesome rant! I agree 100%. And you are a very (0+ / 0-)

                    well informed 26 year old.  The muddling masses are too busy with DWTS, their facebook page and, more importantly, struggling to get by.  

                    So they don't know what they don't know.

                    The GOP says you have to have an ID to vote, but $ Millionaire donors should remain anonymous?

                    by JVolvo on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 12:21:43 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

          •  He said more words. That's how they judged it. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            daeros

            You can't make this stuff up.

            by David54 on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 06:38:28 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Yep, conference call while Obama was still on (4+ / 0-)

          the stage.

          On the conference call convened by aides in Denver and Chicago even as the candidates were still on stage, there was no debate in the Obama campaign about the debate. None of the advisers fooled themselves into thinking it was anything but a disaster.
          NYTimes

          I guess Obama's campaign staff are handwringers, too.  And, according to daeros here, wrong wrong wrong.

          I had forgotten the power of clap-clap-clap here on DKos  :o(

          Wait, let me guess.  Biden's gonna cream Ryan!!11 and all will be well...

          The GOP says you have to have an ID to vote, but $ Millionaire donors should remain anonymous?

          by JVolvo on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 06:52:49 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Who should I believe? (15+ / 0-)

      The shrieking freakouters or my own lying eyes?

      I think the problem is that many people on the left built Obama up into some mythically powerful speaker who would be able to evaporate Romney's lies with a glance from his laser eye beams.

      When that didn't happen, they erupted in anger and frustration. This helped to "set" the narrative that the media wished for so they could get their horse race.

      I believe what you are seeing in the polls is Republicans no longer embarrassed to admit to pollsters that they are for Romney (momentarily anyway), and people whose grasp of politics is thin enough to be swayed by the noise. Some of that is noise that Democrats have helped to create, by the way. Why they think this is a good idea I have no clue.

      I can only say I watched and listened to the debate myself. I don't agree with the popular assessment. It's not what I saw or heard.

      But we have to live with what has happened and move on.

      •  "shreiking freakouters"? (5+ / 0-)

        Romney won the debate in the way the matters.

        Obama looked bad.

        notice the lack of shrieking & freaking in the above two sentences.

        An ambulance can only go so fast - Neil Young

        by mightymouse on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 07:53:29 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Did Obama look bad? (3+ / 0-)

          Or did a bunch of people say he looked bad loudly and often enough so that  people started to believe it?

          I find it interesting that there seem to be quite a few critics of the president's performance who it turns out didn't actually watch the debate. And I find it also interesting that the same critical phrasing that was used by pundits keeps turning up.

          Again, I watched the debate and listened closely. I saw Mitt Romney manic, with a crazed gleam in his eye, talking a mile a minute like one of those high pressure salesmen on late night infomercials. And that was only the optics. He lied like a cheap rug.

          But when I came here that night, was anyone talking about that? Nope. Everyone was griping about the president's performance.

          Way to go, folks. Not.

          •  yes, Obama looked bad. (0+ / 0-)

            An ambulance can only go so fast - Neil Young

            by mightymouse on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 08:19:15 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Obama looked bad (4+ / 0-)

            someone once said that you can tell who won the debate if you watch it with the sound turned off. Obama looked bad, looked like he didn't want to be there.

            You may have seen a manic Romney, but he's always rather frenetic. Other people would see him as energized, animated, and in control. That's what they want in a leader. Like it or not.

            Personally, I thought Romney came across as a liar and a bully.

            But Obama came across as disinterested, unenergized, and unfocused. In other words, bad.

            Diversity may be the hardest thing for a society to live with, and perhaps the most dangerous thing for a society to be without - W S Coffin

            by stitchmd on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 08:25:42 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Looked like he didn't want to be there (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Steve Magruder

              Did you think of that all by yourself? Or are you echoing James Carville?

              Are you going to say next that you think Obama was lazy and didn't do his homework, too? Or did you miss Sununu's take on the debate?

              Does anybody here have their own opinions? Or are we just a pundit echo chamber?

              •  Of course (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Midwesterners

                because I am completely unable to think for myself.

                Got any other good lines for me to memorize?

                Just because I happen to have come to similar conclusions to other people doesn't mean I didn't come to it on my own. I hadn't even known that Carville said something to that effect, but thanks for the reference.

                And for the record, I saw that interview with that ugly prick Sununu. He was every bit as much of a bully as Romney was in the debate, as were many of the other Republicans who were on the teevee that day. Fortunately Andrea Mitchell held her own and called him on that crap. And that's what it was, crap. Of a racist  dog whistle nature.

                So, no, I'm not going to even begin to repeat what Sununu said. He's not worth my time.

                And just because I don't happen to agree with you, because I found the president's performance to be abysmal, yes, that's the word I'm going to use, that  doesn't mean I didn't come to it independently. Obama hurt himself, plain and simple. But it's about far more than just Obama.

                Diversity may be the hardest thing for a society to live with, and perhaps the most dangerous thing for a society to be without - W S Coffin

                by stitchmd on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 10:51:29 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  So are you telling me you formulated that (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Steve Magruder

                  "didn't want to be there" meme completely on your own? You didn't hear it from Carville, but did you hear it from someone else and decide you agreed with it?

                  My point is that I'm noticing quite a few people repeating characterizations of the debate that did not originate with them, and it turns out many of these people didn't even watch the debate in its entirety themselves.

                  Maybe you're not one of those people. In any event, I don't see how it's helpful for us to circulate and amplify a storyline that the media is pushing to create a horse race.

                  We ought to be circulating and amplifying the fact that Romney lied his ass off and looked like a crooked used car salesman juked up on meth.

                  I watched the debate myself, and that's what I honestly saw.

                  •  I did not watch every minute (0+ / 0-)

                    the debate, but I watched the majority of it.

                    And yes, my impression that very night (my spouse can confirm it, as we discussed it) was that Obama looked like he wanted to be elsewhere.

                    That's not something I have said publicly, however. I have spoken with other committed Dems who had similar views. I'm saying it here because this is hardly neutral territory. In public I've said, over and over and over, that Romney was a lying bully on that screen.

                    Romney lied. It's coming back to get him now, but that first impression was big.

                    Look, there are things that people look for in a president, and one of them is qualities of leadership. Everyone has always said that Romney looks like a president - he does physically embody what people think of when they think of a POTUS, especially a Republican one. But the thing he did was to grab hold of that debate by the neck and he did not let go. In this country, in the wider population, that is what people see as "being a leader:" taking control. By any means necessary. (Same persona in that hideous speech yesterday, btw.)

                    Obama had no control over that stage and did not engage with the audience, and it hurt him. It especially hurt him with people who were wavering and saw Romney take control, and that Obama appeared not to fight back. That's why not only do the polls show increased support for Romney, but a drop for Obama. And that's just terrible.

                    Obama was on point on the facts. He was more truthful by far than Romney. No doubt. But that didn't help these optics.

                    Diversity may be the hardest thing for a society to live with, and perhaps the most dangerous thing for a society to be without - W S Coffin

                    by stitchmd on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 11:23:16 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Yeah, I just didn't see any of what you say (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Steve Magruder

                      you saw.

                      Control over the stage? Not engaging with the audience? Did you watch through to the end?

                      Did you miss the very moving segment when Obama spoke about his grandmother and the Social Security and Medicare benefits that she earned through her lifetime of hard work?

                      What's very frustrating to me is that I read comments here about how "Obama didn't say this" when, yes, I heard him say just those things.

                      I watched the whole debate and listened to all of it, with my undivided attention.

                      At this point, though, public opinion has solidified and there's nothing we can do about it but move on.

                      I'm just not going to change my own opinion based on what other people thought, because I know what I saw and heard.

                      I feel the same way as I felt as the majority of Americans believed the BS about WMD in Iraq. It always was transparent BS, but most Americans bought it. I didn't, and I'm not buying the BS Mitt is selling now either.

                      •  I did see that (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Steve Magruder

                        look, Obama had some good points, I give him credit for having his facts down. But it's the overall impression.

                        I give you credit for watching it all the way through. Despite the fact my kids were switching channels for much of the first hour, I really couldn't stomach a lot of it. Mostly Romney's bullying. I'm not buying his crap either.

                        Here's what we should also be saying about this new, more "moderate" Mitt Romney: he ran the same kind of campaign in Massachusetts and governed far more conservatively than he ran. He is going to lose that state by double digits. If the one state that he actually did run (the only election for office he did win) rejects him that soundly, shouldn't that be a warning to the rest of us?

                        Diversity may be the hardest thing for a society to live with, and perhaps the most dangerous thing for a society to be without - W S Coffin

                        by stitchmd on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 11:55:50 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Well, ok (0+ / 0-)

                          May I gently suggest that your impression might have been different if you had given the debate your full attention? And that some of the things you are criticizing in the President's performance are not fair criticisms, something you might recognize if you watched the whole thing?

                          That's my point all along, really. People who didn't actually watch fully get caught up in what other people say and then this gets fixed as the conventional wisdom.

                          The media tried to say that McCain won the first debate with Obama but were stopped in their tracks by a snap poll.  This time, the snap poll confirmed the story the pundits preferred. There were concerns raised about the legitimacy of that snap poll. At this point, it's all water under the bridge.

                          We must move on.

                          •  You may have a point (0+ / 0-)

                            but the spouse, who did watch the entire thing (has a better attention span than do I) was also frustrated by the very things I have discussed.

                            I didn't even watch the talking heads that night, except to see Rachel just befuddled.

                            Diversity may be the hardest thing for a society to live with, and perhaps the most dangerous thing for a society to be without - W S Coffin

                            by stitchmd on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 12:42:53 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                  •  btw, if you don't agree with me (0+ / 0-)

                    brooklynbadboy says much of the same thing at the end of his currently rec'd diary. Which I read after posting the above comment. But of course I'm just copying him because I don't think for myself.

                    Diversity may be the hardest thing for a society to live with, and perhaps the most dangerous thing for a society to be without - W S Coffin

                    by stitchmd on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 11:36:46 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

            •  Sorry, but the person who said you can judge (0+ / 0-)

              a debate by watching with the sound off has to be the stupidest fucking idiot on the planet.

              What is a debate but a contrast of ideas?  Would you judge a singing competition with the sound off?

              Geez. Unbelievable.

              •  do you really think (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Steve Magruder

                that the majority of people watch the debates for the ideas? Many people do, certainly, and that's why we're so pissed off around here.

                Hard to judge a debate on ideas when one of the candidates totally lies the whole time. When the opponent decides to reject the policies he's proposed and supported and come mostly to your side right before the debate, it does make it very difficult to respond.

                But if you really think that the optics don't mean as much if not more than the words, look at the history of debates, the key one, of course, being Kennedy/Nixon, the first televised debates. Those who watched it on TV said Kennedy won; those who listened to the radio, Nixon.

                Think about some of the other key visuals in previous debates: Bush 41 looking at his watch; Gore's sighs.

                Diversity may be the hardest thing for a society to live with, and perhaps the most dangerous thing for a society to be without - W S Coffin

                by stitchmd on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 11:29:58 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Why are we buying into that bullshit? (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Steve Magruder

                  Why do we accept the premise that you can win a debate by slinging bullshit and nothing but?

                  That's what's frustrating to me. Because rather than amplifying and circulating the story that Mitt lied from the moment he stepped onto the stage until the moment he got off, we have been amplifying and circulating BS memes about how the president "looked like he didn't want to be there" or acted "lazy and shiftless."

                  Sorry, but between the President and his supporters, I think it is his supporters who are acting like we don't want to win this thing.

                  •  I am not saying (0+ / 0-)

                    that he acted "lazy and shiftless." I find that to be incredibly insulting, as was the claim someone made that he "just isn't all that bright," or something like that. Besides the fact that it's obviously code. Obama is clearly a highly intelligent man and he works incredibly hard.

                    But he is up against a frightening opponent: someone who is also highly intelligent (at least in terms of his ability to retain and function with information; Romney is so incurious as to be incredibly frightening) and is a facile, pathological liar who will do anything, I repeat, anything to get elected. Obama has far far more integrity, he has more integrity in his little finger than Romney and his staff have collectively.

                    But he is going to have to get down in it with that type of campaign. The stakes are just too high for him not to.

                    As I said in another comment, a Romney presidency would be a catastrophe.

                    Diversity may be the hardest thing for a society to live with, and perhaps the most dangerous thing for a society to be without - W S Coffin

                    by stitchmd on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 12:02:14 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Consider what it means to say (0+ / 0-)

                      that someone "looked like he didn't want to be there." It's another way of saying he's not doing his job. That means he's not hard working, etc.

                      There are many ways to dog whistle and all the various pitches are being used against the President in this campaign.

                      Some more overt than others.

                      http://www.ktvu.com/...

          •  Obama only looked bad at key moments (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            keetz4, Steve Magruder

            mainly his opening and closing statements. But apart from that, he was fine. It was his passiveness that really hurt him, especially with the base.

            Another thing, the format and questions selected by Jim Lehrer were a joke. It was all villager bullshit pushing austerity, tax cuts and the deficit. Nobody outside of Washington gives a shit about Simpson-Bowles. Obama's crappy performance notwithstanding, I honestly think he was so boxed in with these questions, I'm not even sure a win was possible. Certainly none of the issues discussed last Wednesday were likely to get progressives fired up.

            That's the one thing I think people have forgotten in the post-debate analysis.

    •  Scare (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Gator Keyfitz, keetz4

      Go away. Please. Just take a break. Better yet, do some phone banking or canvassing. How 'bout it?

    •  The TRUTH ALWAYS WINS!!! (0+ / 0-)

      Eventually. No matter what the media tells you!

      "...I just want you to know there are BILLIONS of us rooting for you..." Sir Paul McCartney

      by eden4barack08 on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 09:12:03 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Job Numbers reversed the bounce (11+ / 0-)

    Plus the way Obama came back after the Debate. Obama bounce deflated due to Obama.

  •  It's still all so (7+ / 0-)

    weird, so other-worldly, that President Obama would be so ungodly flat on that night.  A six point swing- even if it were to fade to 3 or 4- a couple days after a debate is really what one would expect of George W. Bush vs. Thomas Jefferson, not Obama.

    From Neocon to sane- thanks to Obama- and Kos.

    by satrap on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 05:06:08 AM PDT

    •  It's beyond strange (5+ / 0-)

      . . . having watched Reagan suck mightily on air against Mondale, and watching Kerry spank W's butt, and really, neither of those debate-offs ended up helping the debate winner. After a few weeks, all win effect had evaporated.

      Which is why I do not think debates matter, except to the political geeks of the world.

      But we do, rightly, expect our man Obama to step up and show some passion.

    •  And why is that? (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      daeros, Mommyca, boofdah, keetz4

      Because we expect Obama to knock one out of the park each and every time he steps up to the plate, right?

      That's why everybody tries to tamp down expectations before a debate. Obama didn't have a poor debate performance compared to the way most presidents debate; he only had a poor debate performance compared to the way Democrats expected he would perform.

      If Romney debated the way Obama debated, everyone would be praising the performance, not criticizing it.

    •  He wasn't "ungodly flat." (5+ / 0-)

      He was just ok. He actually pointed out Romney's lies on a ton of topics.

      Sure, he didn't say "MITT ROMNEY, THAT'S A FUCKING LIE!" but he pointed out a lot of the big ones.

      Then Chris and Ed and the progressives in the media went totally insane and started literally screaming for days about how Obama was horrible and lost the election. This gave the corporate media free reign to declare that Obama was horrible. See, they're bipartisan! Even the Democrats think Obama sucks!

      If the progressive voices were as passionate about pointing out Romney's lies as they were Obama's "worst debate performance ever," we might have a different meme.

      But why would I ever expect Democrats to attack Republicans, when we can sit back and attack our own. It's what we do, and unfortunately it has real world consequences (like people dying).

      When we stop putting leaders from the past up on pedestals and ignoring their flaws, we can start seeing our present leaders for what they really are.

      by PhillyJeff on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 06:28:38 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  And supporters of Social Security & (18+ / 0-)

    "entitlements" have a hard time supporting those who express a willingness to cut but not slash these programs.

  •  This is an object lesson ... (16+ / 0-)

    ... in how lightly the average voter pays attention to the details when they're working on a voting decision. Perhaps it's time to dust off the ol' Etch-a-sketch and put it out front that Romney believes nothing and will say anything.

    •  Or a very, very good (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      LordMike, mightymouse, PDiddie, pademocrat

      moment not to completely piss your pants on live TV in front of 67 million people when you've had months to prepare.  Don't blame non-politicos for Obama's blunder.

      From Neocon to sane- thanks to Obama- and Kos.

      by satrap on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 05:08:06 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  "Piss your Pants"?? Shame on you. n/t (10+ / 0-)

        "Southern nights have you ever felt a southern night?" Allen Toussaint ~~Remember the Gulf of Mexico~~

        by rubyr on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 05:23:46 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  It's people like this commenter (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          daeros, awsdirector, rubyr, megisi

          who are pissing their pants. Over a bump in national polls.

          •  I swear to you that I do not show the disrespect (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            elmo, keetz4, megisi

            to my worst enemies that people are showing to our President who has worked his ass off under almost impossible circumstances to repair eight years of Republican idiocy.

            I have so little respect for these people that it is hard for me to even be civil. They act like children, they really do. Daddy pissed me off I am angry -- WTF?

            This is why we lose. Republicans are tough and loyal, they hang tight. Yet, these people will never ever take responsibility for their part in the problem, they want magic without having to work or summon up a tad of loyalty or respect or to be brave enough to remain loyal when there is a bump in the road.

            "Southern nights have you ever felt a southern night?" Allen Toussaint ~~Remember the Gulf of Mexico~~

            by rubyr on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 07:40:39 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  So you are saying we should be like Republicans? (0+ / 0-)

              Seriously, we are supposed to march in lockstep behind Obama just because we call ourselves Democrats?

              Sorry, I do not agree with that. And I thought Obama himself said, recently, that change has to come from outside Washington by people putting pressure on those in Washington. Do you think he was exempting himself?

              Yes, he has worked to repair the damage wrought by the Bush years. That's why it is so incredibly important that it doesn't get turned back over to the idiots, led by Romney, who created this mess, and will recreate that disaster and almost assuredly make it even worse. This is a critical election, and when it is this close, every single opportunity matters.

              Obama is our standard bearer in this fight. You may not like what I am going to say, but as our standard bearer he owes it to us to get up and fight every single battle, every debate, every campaign stop. He simply did not do that last week.

              We can't afford for him not to be on his A game. You don't win if you're not, not in the championship round.

              Diversity may be the hardest thing for a society to live with, and perhaps the most dangerous thing for a society to be without - W S Coffin

              by stitchmd on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 08:36:53 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  No, I am saying nothing of the sort. That you (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                megisi

                choose to perceive what I say in that way is on you. To the contrary, I am saying that as progressives we are supposed to have some benefit of the doubt and compassion. None of which are being shown here.  

                I am also saying that loyalty, respect and hard work are better solutions than bitching and moaning like spoiled children.

                You are asking for Obama to be a super hero when he is only a man who is trying his best. He doesn't "owe" us anything except to do the best he can on any given day and I think he has done that. We owe him and our country the best that we can give.  

                The day you are perfect--rewrite the words you just wrote to me and I will listen.

                I just wonder if you are on your A-game every minute of every day. He is campaigning and running a country. What are you doing?

                "Southern nights have you ever felt a southern night?" Allen Toussaint ~~Remember the Gulf of Mexico~~

                by rubyr on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 10:07:10 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I'm not on my A game every minute (0+ / 0-)

                  of the day, but I sure as hell do my best to be so when I'm at my job, because I know what's on the line.

                  I'm not asking for Obama to be a superhero. I never expected that of him. Ever. I am saying, not asking, that he needs to be on his A game in this election especially at times when it matters.

                  Frankly, I am terrified of the idea of Mitt Romney as president. I remember back in 2000 when people said, "oh, really, George W. Bush can't really be that bad." Well, he was that bad, and far, far worse.

                  Romney as president will be a catastrophe. One that cannot happen. We don't have any room to give to keep that from happening.

                  So, yeah, I expect Obama to be on his A game from here on in, at least in the venues that really matter, like the debates.

                  Diversity may be the hardest thing for a society to live with, and perhaps the most dangerous thing for a society to be without - W S Coffin

                  by stitchmd on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 10:58:59 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Well, let's hope he is. If being on his A-game (0+ / 0-)

                    involves wholesale lying, talking all over the moderator and his opponent and bullying, I hope he's not on his A-game. I would like to see him win on substance and as the decent man that he is.

                    He is running a country, dealing with at world out of control with financial crises and wars and running for President and, I think that having his back and giving him a little love will be far more beneficial than running him down and telling the world how he needs to behave.

                    "Southern nights have you ever felt a southern night?" Allen Toussaint ~~Remember the Gulf of Mexico~~

                    by rubyr on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 03:14:42 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

      •  oh please. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Steve Magruder

        Certain commenters are ALWAYS pissing their pants over Obama. Who was a tad flat but truthful. This frenetic Romney as triumphant winner is a media creation. He showed more fire. And he lied lied lied all the way through. And now Obama has a taste of Romney's vacuous immorality, and the next debate will be different.

        •  A tad flat, truthful, and the loser of the debate. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          stitchmd

          To a guy who lied lied lied all the way through.

          You can candy-coat it all you want, but that makes you just as much of a reality-denier as the poll-unskewer.

          The real enemy of the good is not the perfect, but the mediocre.

          by Orange County Liberal on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 08:11:08 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Loo, there was ample room for ... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Steve Magruder

            ... criticism of how the president handled that debate and all of it should be aired.

            I'm ticked off at the tone, much of it fanned by MSNBC commentators. He is President Obama, not your frustration target, not your gardener, not your ex-wife's new husband.

            I truly believe that some on the left would be slower to address him in tones they wouldn't employ on their neighbor's dog if he were white like em.

  •  2010 was a fine example of that, right? (0+ / 0-)

    Rock the House in 2012!

    by mwm341 on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 05:07:34 AM PDT

  •  Are people really this stupid? (20+ / 0-)

    That so many of them would change their votes based on one debate? A debate in which Mitt lied the entire time? I will NEVER understand the American electorate.

  •  Obama has skewed his own pooch. We are about (11+ / 0-)

    to get hundreds of emails asking for our help and money.  Call to arms, we have to save the country.  Same crap different day, Democrats turn a lead into a disaster, what else is new.

    •  I kind of agree. Obama (13+ / 0-)

      was supernaturally unagressive.  Romney made him look like a wimp.  OOF.

      From Neocon to sane- thanks to Obama- and Kos.

      by satrap on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 05:11:39 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The Businessman vs The Professor (5+ / 0-)

        is what we saw in the debate. The successful Businessman will always lie and be aggressive and exude power.
        The Professor has the wisdom, but is in the mode of dispensing information and facilitating dialogue while being thoughtful and in a constant state of reflecting on the meaning of the information.

        But, I disagree about Obama being "supernaturally unaggressive". He is cautious, measured and controlled.

        Romney grew up feeling entitled and important. Obama felt alone a lot of the time and struggled for a sense of belonging as he was growing up. Obama's team needs to climb into the psychology of this situation and figure out what will bring out the fighter/protector in Obama.

    •  If by disaster (6+ / 0-)

      you mean still a lead in polls showing a win in the electoral college, then yeah.  

      Nate Silver still puts Obama's chance at winning at around 75 percent.

      A disaster like that, I'll take.

      •  Agreed! (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        keetz4

        While it is fine to indulgingly wallow in bashing our President, what Kos said in his last paragraph...

        Regardless, it shows that Obama's debate performance was an epic blunder. Romney gave his partisans a reason to get excited about him and they've responded. It should come as no surprise that people like to fight for people who are fighting for them.
        ... is simply inexcusable. Please Kos keep your "epic blunder" to yourself... you do not need to get so carried away with your blind rage over one lackluster debate performance.

        It is time for us to forgive and heal, and move right along... not display our understandable disappointment in such a callous and bitter fashion  

        "The blackbird whirled in the autumn winds. It was a small part of the pantomime." Wallace Stevens

        by mobiusein on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 07:01:29 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  How do you take back a change in perception, (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          mobiusein

          Romney is now an acceptable option to quite a few voters who either did not know who is was or had not made up their minds.

          Let me do the math for you, things are still shitty for them.....strike 1, their house is still underwater(if they still have a house)....strike 2, their jobs are at risk or they have a family member that is unemployed...strike 3.  

          Things may be turning around generally but the people that will decide this election sit squarely in the group that are still having a tough time and Romney now looks like the CHANGE they were looking for.  

          That situation sounds EPIC to me.

          •  Yes, people are really hurting... (0+ / 0-)

            ... on that you are absolutely correct. Some of it is Obama's fault, especially his failure to help homeowners with underwater mortgages, but a large fraction of the current economic downturn isn't - the Republicans with their corporate friends made sure that the jobs number would remain high come November 2012, about which they almost succeeded...

            I was only referring to the bitter tone of the diarist's final remarks... it sounds as if Obama let everyone down by being unable to prepare adequately for the first debate...

            Listen, we do not need this sense of utter despair take over the progressive community's feelings about Obama winning the election. If we did, it would undo everything we believe in... by bringing the hard-hearted plutocrats and the war-mongering neo-conservatives back into office to ruin our country for decades to come

            "The blackbird whirled in the autumn winds. It was a small part of the pantomime." Wallace Stevens

            by mobiusein on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 09:00:36 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I am not blaming Obama for their situation but (0+ / 0-)

              they probably are, short sighted absolutely but generally speaking the electorate is short sighted.  It is why the Republicans have been able to win so often.  Logic is just not their strong suit.  Obama came in on a wave of emotion.  He was elected before anyone except a very few realized how bad things were going to get.  People have very short memories and the pundit class(we no longer have a real working press) and the Republicans are good at monetizing their amnesia.  

              If this election is close then the Republicans will steal it, and their is no way we can stop them.  If it isn't then what they have done with all the fraud and the land mines they have laid into the system won't matter....do you get the reason for the despair yet?  Obama just made the large amount of voter suppression a major PROBLEM for us to handle, if we can.

  •  So let's see what happens (7+ / 0-)

    after the next debate.

    President Obama, January 9, 2012: "Change is hard, but it is possible. I've Seen it. I've Lived it."

    by Drdemocrat on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 05:09:30 AM PDT

  •  This reminds me of the Bush/Kerry race (12+ / 0-)

    when Bush was ahead.  Then he has a bad debate resulting in Kerry ahead.  They after all the debates the race was essentially tied and in the end it came down to OHIO.

    OHIO OHIO OHIO.

    President Obama, January 9, 2012: "Change is hard, but it is possible. I've Seen it. I've Lived it."

    by Drdemocrat on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 05:10:56 AM PDT

    •  yes it is similar BUT with RAND (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      keetz4, PorridgeGun

      Obama's already going back UP

    •  It's exactly like the Bush-Kerry debate (0+ / 0-)

      Bush had an even bigger lead than Obama had. He was ahead 9-12 points in Time, Newsweek, and USA Today/Gallup, and by high single digits in the alphabet network polls. Bush went into the first debate complacent, and more than anything, it was the optics that hurt him. I remember the networks highlighted the split screen comparison of both candidates, which was the reverse of the first Bush-Gore debate. Kerry, for the first time in the election looked presidential.

      Romney, like Kerry in '04, benefited from sharing the same stage with the President, and obviously had more debate prep.

  •  Debates have little effect? (9+ / 0-)

    That has been the meme here for months.  No wonder people are so freaked out.

  •  Nothing to celebrate in the crosstabs either (10+ / 0-)

    When you discourage Democrats and activate Republicans, this is what happens.

    Ok, so I read the polls.

    by andgarden on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 05:12:03 AM PDT

  •  It ain't over folks (11+ / 0-)

    The bar is so low for Obama in the next debate that if he comes out with a strong performance even if he technically doesn't "win" the debate the MSM will say that Obama is back.

    Also, Obama will do well in the foreign policy debate.

    President Obama, January 9, 2012: "Change is hard, but it is possible. I've Seen it. I've Lived it."

    by Drdemocrat on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 05:13:27 AM PDT

  •  Oh Kos...I can't believe you insinuated that (19+ / 0-)

    Obama is not fighting for us because he had one bad night.

    So sad that you would even make a statement like that.

    I think it would be more helpful to point out that the American people are so freaking fickle that they would abandon Obama for one night's less than stellar performance after all of the ridiculous flip-flopping, lying, insulting that Romney has done for months. That is what scares me. He has done nothing but screw up for over a year and Obama has one bad night and is suddenly a person who does not fight for us.

    Also, Romney triumphed? based on lied, bullying and rude behavior. Speaks poorly that that would sway a country to vote for him.  

    Democrats eat their own. They always have and they always will and IMHO, that is our biggest weakness as a political party and as political people.
    Think about it.

    "Southern nights have you ever felt a southern night?" Allen Toussaint ~~Remember the Gulf of Mexico~~

    by rubyr on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 05:13:45 AM PDT

    •  That said, he has to turn up in the next debate nt (6+ / 0-)
      •  Well, now that you've got us straightened out (0+ / 0-)

        about what needs to be done, I am sure that everything will be alright.

        "Southern nights have you ever felt a southern night?" Allen Toussaint ~~Remember the Gulf of Mexico~~

        by rubyr on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 07:20:03 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  It's not the American people who are fickle (6+ / 0-)

      It's us. Liberals like us.

      Take a look across the aisle and notice that rightwingers are happy to turn out for a man that they loathe simply because he has the "R" next to his name on the ballot.

      Oh for a little bit of that kind of loyalty in our base. We'd win far more elections than we do now.

      •  Your point is the exact one I was making. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        boofdah, elmo

        Democrats eat their own and Repugs never do. Ever, no matter how awful their candidates are. They are loyal. Dems bail at the first sign of trouble and think they are really, really tough. Just look at the disrespect and derision toward our President in this diary. It's awful.

        "Southern nights have you ever felt a southern night?" Allen Toussaint ~~Remember the Gulf of Mexico~~

        by rubyr on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 07:14:43 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  oh please (0+ / 0-)

        the left still supports the president and are among his most dedicated supporters. stop with the DFH-blaming.

    •  not just one night (4+ / 0-)

      Obama has always seemed to view himself as the only adult in the room, Mr. Purple State, the guy who thought getting one Republican vote for Obamacare was more important than the public option.  By failing to fight Romney directly on his lies last Wednesday in front of millions, Obama showed us more of the same disdain for the political fight.  

      Fighting for what you believe in is a noble act, I wish Obama was able to do this, but haven't seen it much over the past 4 years.  Hope he realizes he's back on the ropes now and doesn't have a choice but TO fight.

      •  Yeah, the first black president got HCR passed (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        rubyr, boofdah, PorridgeGun

        after "fighters" like Bill "I love NAFTA, DOMA, DADT, financial deregulation and welfare reform" and others couldn't get it done for 40+ years. He got it done facing unprecedented obstructionism.

        But w/e. If he doesn't go on TV and literally scream about "banksters, rethuglicans, corporatism, George W. Bush is a war criminal" etc etc, probably with some F-U's thrown in there he's a horrible human being and we deserve Romney.

        Sometimes I wonder why I'm even a progressive. Maybe I should move to Europe or something.

        When we stop putting leaders from the past up on pedestals and ignoring their flaws, we can start seeing our present leaders for what they really are.

        by PhillyJeff on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 06:22:30 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Poor you, poor poor poor little you with all (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        boofdah

        of your disappointment. Why don't you fight for what you believe in? If you don't believe in Romney and the kind of country he would give us. Fight for Obama and stop this whinging. Nothing is perfect. This is NOT a liberal country, not even close to it and he fought for a huge number of things he believes in and won. You can't see it, obviously, but that's on you, not Obama.

        "Southern nights have you ever felt a southern night?" Allen Toussaint ~~Remember the Gulf of Mexico~~

        by rubyr on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 07:17:29 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  not just one night. (0+ / 0-)

      An ambulance can only go so fast - Neil Young

      by mightymouse on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 07:59:12 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Interesting that PPP, Gallup, Rasmussen (12+ / 0-)

    all show that Romney did really well on Thursday and Friday and then settled down by Sunday.

    President Obama, January 9, 2012: "Change is hard, but it is possible. I've Seen it. I've Lived it."

    by Drdemocrat on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 05:14:18 AM PDT

    •  As does this. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      PorridgeGun

      These numbers are from Thursday and Friday, after the debates but before Big Bird and the employment numbers on the evening news.

      Of course, maybe the country needs to change before its politicians do...

      "Politics should be the part-time profession of every citizen who would protect the rights and privileges of free people and who would preserve what is good and fruitful in our national heritage." -- Lucille Ball

      by Yamaneko2 on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 06:49:55 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  And in this poll, Romney did best on Sunday (0+ / 0-)

      53-43, after being behind 48-50 on Saturday. These would have been the last of the callbacks, the hardest to contact, so that might be a factor.

      Disclaimer: If the above comment can possibly be construed as snark, it probably is.

      by grubber on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 06:50:23 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Thank doG for that! That's where Big Bird meme (0+ / 0-)

      + Obama's strong campaign stops Thurs and Fri helped lessen the damage.

      More, please!

      The GOP says you have to have an ID to vote, but $ Millionaire donors should remain anonymous?

      by JVolvo on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 07:20:26 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Dkos/PPP is skewed. (6+ / 0-)

    They oversampled poll respondents.

    I can't believe our election is being decided by people who can't tell the difference between republicans and democrats...that's like letting a dog choose what color to paint your house.

    by PBJ Diddy on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 05:14:26 AM PDT

  •  Clear Choice (12+ / 0-)

    Romney/Ryan are the first nominees that are against abortion even in cases of rape, incest and life of the mother! Why isn't this being brought up? It is a BFD!

    Pre-existing conditions will not be covered under Romney's plan. There will continue to be lifetime caps on insurance.

    Tax cuts for the weathiest.

    Maybe bring this stuff up...like a lot.

  •  It Seems Like No Change To Me (0+ / 0-)

    Both polls are statistically tied!

  •  THAT SUCKS KOS!! (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Sandy on Signal
  •  Who was Romney fighting for? (4+ / 0-)

    "I'm not mad at them (tea party) for being loud, I'm mad at us for being silent for the last two years. Where have we been"? "it was never yes HE can, it was Yes WE can". - Van Jones

    by sillycilla on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 05:16:12 AM PDT

  •  rMoneymentum will be short-lived (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    skillet, politicalceci, JVolvo
    Clearly, none of this is irreversible, and it'll bear watching the daily trackers to see if Romney continues to fade or not. And obviously, next week's numbers will further clarify the shape of the race.

    Regardless, it shows that Obama's debate performance was an epic blunder. Romney gave his partisans a reason to get excited about him and they've responded. It should come as no surprise that people like to fight for people who are fighting for them.

    Demonstrates the superficiality of the electorate in their identifying rMoney's aggression as superiority; Mitt has now laid a foundation of lies on which GOP defeat will be built

    yksitoista ulotteinen presidentin shakki. / tappaa kaikki natsit "Nous sommes un groupuscule" (-9.50; -7.03) 政治委员, 政委‽ Warning - some snark above ‽

    by annieli on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 05:16:54 AM PDT

  •  It should come as no surprise that people (15+ / 0-)

    Like to fight for people that fight for them.

    The silver lining is I sincerely hope this debate finally end the WH's old strategy of throw Republicans a lifeline instead of an anchor.   They stopped for most of the year and late last year, and hopefully this reinforces that upside of differentiation and partisanship.

    That being said, I still think do no harm may have succeeded long term.  But only if Ryan and Romney are now held to account for the nonsense the espoused for the better part of two years.

    But what I see in these numbers is the culmination of what many of us said 3 years ago.  Show why progressive policy is good, not how willing you are to get kudos from the other side.  Good policy equals good politics, not the other way around.  I hope everyone now sees why never pushing back on the downside of the early strategy was bad.   Can't get mad now when the President just follows through.  And it probay will work again, but there is a downside.

    “Mitt Romney is the only person in America who looked at the way this Congress is behaving and said, ‘I want the brains behind THAT operation.’ ” Former Democratic Congressman - Tom Perriello "Small Businesses Don't Build Levees" - MHP

    by justmy2 on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 05:17:12 AM PDT

    •  I agree on that point--- we need to bury them (6+ / 0-)

      It's enough to let the GOP run their mouths, when they're off their guard.  But when they practice their talking points, we have to undermine them.

      Especially when they're as natural a salesman as Romney is.  What he did in that debate was sell us the car we can't afford, the house we can't qualify for, the exercise equipment we'll never actually use.  

      In the world of sales, once we make the purchase, there's nothing to do but regret it in the morning.  Romney's problem is that we haven't actually made the purchase yet, and we have a month to reconsider.  

      Will he keep making the sale?  Will he close?  

      Conservatives need to realize that their Silent Moral Majority is neither silent, nor moral, nor a majority.

      by nominalize on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 05:24:20 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  This diary is of interest: (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LordMike, PorridgeGun

    "Southern nights have you ever felt a southern night?" Allen Toussaint ~~Remember the Gulf of Mexico~~

    by rubyr on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 05:17:20 AM PDT

  •  just have to wait (5+ / 0-)

    The next poll will tell you more. If Romney is elected America will get what they deserve for putting this guy in thw white house.
    I agree this will play out like 2004 but I think Obama will pull it out unless he does poorly in the next two debates.

  •  epic blunder (14+ / 0-)

    It was a significant blunder magnified into "epic" by the media spin and echo-chamber.  It not only gave Romney's base a reason to get excited (they don't care that he is moving to the center...as long as the President is defeated)..it also gave indies "permission" of sorts..to lean his way.  Many of them are "disappointed" in Obama, but haven't had a reason to go with Romney.  The debate gave them that reason.
    And Kos's last line is so true....and why this can turn around.  "People like to fight for people who are fighting for them."  
    I'm sure the President and his team know that.  His A game is needed next week.  And yes...style/body language/eye contact, etc...will be closely studied..and largely determine the narrative that follows.  OK...so play the game...and win. There is more than a wee bit at stake for our generation...and the next.  

  •  This DK/PPP poll has Obama's approvals tanking, (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LordMike, kkjohnson, mightymouse

    all the way down to 43-53.  Underwater favorability to at 47-50.  Other polls have not shown this - they reflected a bounce due to gains in Romney's favorability and Republican enthusiasm, not a sudden shift against Obama.

    I strongly suspect this will even out by next Tuesday's poll.

    •  They must buy the argument that Obama (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      LordMike, merrywidow, pademocrat

      manipulated the unemployment statistics, then.

      This is what ingratitude looks like.

      •  UE was not into the public conciousness (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Deejay Lyn, JVolvo

        When the poll was taken

        “Mitt Romney is the only person in America who looked at the way this Congress is behaving and said, ‘I want the brains behind THAT operation.’ ” Former Democratic Congressman - Tom Perriello "Small Businesses Don't Build Levees" - MHP

        by justmy2 on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 05:44:22 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I'm not sure (0+ / 0-)

          how much of the actual announcement of UI mattes compared to the underlying situation the UI number reflects.

          In other words, the labor market has been getting better the last few months, and at the same time, Obama started taking a pretty commanding lead.  The UI number is a lagging quantification of that better labor market, but as people feel the situation getting better, that is already baked into their approval of the president by the time the numbers are actually announced.

          •  And Obama's approval numbers are steady? (0+ / 0-)

            right?

            “Mitt Romney is the only person in America who looked at the way this Congress is behaving and said, ‘I want the brains behind THAT operation.’ ” Former Democratic Congressman - Tom Perriello "Small Businesses Don't Build Levees" - MHP

            by justmy2 on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 09:31:16 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  it was also taken... (0+ / 0-)

      mostly on thursday & friday by far Obama's worse days.

  •  You use "Epic blunder" to describe an event (12+ / 0-)

    based on a poll taken while the entire MSM is hyperventilating over Romney engaging in a filibuster of bullshit??    

    I'm sorry, but that's just atrocious editorializing.  It was a passive, reactive unconvincing performance...there is no doubt.  But you would have us believe, that Obama protecting a 5 run lead, walked 5 straight batters and then gave up a grand slam while pitching underhand.  

         

    1964 Cassius Clay vs Sonny Liston, 1997 Masters Tiger Woods vs Field, 2008 Barack Obama vs Field

    by ZenMaster Coltrane on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 05:21:01 AM PDT

  •  The point of Kos's post is to fire us up...... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    DemInSeattle

    And it should.... let's get off our duffs and work hard.

  •  disappointing to say the least (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Sandy on Signal

    Need to turn this around fast.

    "The real wealth of a nation consists of the contributions of its people and nature." -- Rianne Eisler

    by noofsh on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 05:22:03 AM PDT

    •  We don't need to do anything, Obama needs to (0+ / 0-)

      Fix this one...if he can.  Many people were on the fence and Obama just gave them a reason to vote for Romney.  This may not be fixable.

      •  we do need (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        rockhound, sharonsz

        to do what we can to register voters (I registered about 20 yesterday, today is the last day to register in many places), GOTV, talk to people about why Romney would be a disaster, donate if we can.  We can't "fix" Obama to be the candidate we would like, or control what the national campaign does.  But there is plenty that we can do as individuals to try and make sure he wins.

        Justice For Will Will spent his brief, courageous life fighting for the rights we all take for granted. Please share his story to support the fight!

        by KibbutzAmiad on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 06:20:53 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  What is very, very odd (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LordMike, elmo

    is that some polls find a bounce, and some don't in the state polling.  

    PPP Va goes from +5 on the 18th to +3 after the debate.
    Ras goes from O+1 to tied in VA.
    Sesquehanna shows no change in PA
    Byadon/Foster in MI goes from +2 T0 +3, Though Epic-MRA goes from +10 to +3 .
    In CO Ras goes from R+2 to O+1, while Gravis goes from R+1 to R+3

    The polling on just Oct 4 does look worse (both Ras and We Ask America find 5 point swings in Fla, and arguably bigger swings in Ohio).

    Taken as a whole, though, the state polling really doesn't show as big as a shift as some of the state polling.

    The bitter truth of deep inequality has been disguised by an era of cheap imported goods and the anyone-can-make-it celebrity myth - Polly Toynbee

    by fladem on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 05:24:45 AM PDT

  •  I was stunned when my 26 year old daughter told (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LordMike, JVolvo, mightymouse

    me that she was leaning toward Romney.

    That wouldn't be surprising for me, but for her?

    She is finishing up a degree in biology, is passionate about the environment, is married to a union member, and has had significant medical and dental care thanks to his excellent union health benefits.   On top of that, I know that she or her husband ( I can't remember which) has referred to Romney as hating women.  She enthusiastically voted for Obama in 2008.  

    That may not last all the way until the election, but here flirtation with the dark side may highlight a weakness in things like 7.8%.

    She sees, every day, friends who are unable to find work, or are working at crap jobs.  She's already changed her major twice (started in anthropology) because of the gloomy job market.  When I asked her about the latest jobs report, her only response was, "Really?"

    Interesting.

    For what it's worth, her conservative dad (me) is still having trouble leaning towards Romney.  I have no trouble leaning away from Obama (my 2008 vote was considerably less enthusiastic than hers) as I don't believe he's been a good President.

    But Romney?
    Ew.

    LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

    by dinotrac on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 05:26:09 AM PDT

    •  That union will be gone, gone, gone... (5+ / 0-)

      ...if Romney takes over.  He's the most anti-labor guy around.

      GODSPEED TO THE WISCONSIN FOURTEEN!

      by LordMike on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 05:30:21 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Have you asked her how she thinks Romney (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      merrywidow, politicalceci, Joe B

      and the Republicans will specifically make her life better, using examples from places where they're currently in power and pursuing their agenda?

      •  Nope. I understand how little that question (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        JVolvo, mightymouse

        matters.

        The problem in arguing against "This isn't working, we need to try something else" is that "This isn't working" trumps the "something else".

        "What makes you think they'll be better" doesn't get into play if you can't make the case that things could be worse.

        LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

        by dinotrac on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 06:12:25 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Explain to me-how u do lean one way or the other? (0+ / 0-)
      •  I lean away from Obama. (0+ / 0-)

        The problem is that I don't lean towards anybody.

        In years gone by, I have supported more than a few candidates from "other" parties.  I may do the same this year.

        Fortunately for me, my presidential vote doesn't matter.  I live in solidly-blue Illinois.

        LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

        by dinotrac on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 06:13:49 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I'm sorry but people lack perspective (7+ / 0-)

      What other country that was hit as hard in 2008/09 has rebounded faster than the US in terms of employment and growth?  What EU country?  

      Things are not going to return to happy days in 4 years.  This takes time and if you believe in the snake-oil "I can fix this with a tax cutting economic plan that's never been tried before" then you deserve exactly what you get.  

      1964 Cassius Clay vs Sonny Liston, 1997 Masters Tiger Woods vs Field, 2008 Barack Obama vs Field

      by ZenMaster Coltrane on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 05:38:20 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Does she know something we don't? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Deejay Lyn

      I have yet to see any evidence of romney creating any jobs in america.  Even as governor he was able to outsource state jobs!  He spent the last 25 years building his fortune by shipping our jobs overseas, and replacing them with service positions at places like staples and pizza hut.

    •  What is it that makes you not believe he has not (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Deejay Lyn

      been a good president?

      "Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room." - President Merkin Muffley

      by Farkletoo on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 05:43:51 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  oops one to many not (0+ / 0-)

        "Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room." - President Merkin Muffley

        by Farkletoo on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 05:44:27 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  His first two years in office set the mold. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        bren, mightymouse

        He basically ignored the plight of long-term unemployed, and the problems of the housing market so that he could focus on ACA.

        In the process, he set up the 2010 anti-Democratic (not pro-Republican) wave that has shackled his hands since.

        And...once faced with that dogged Republican resistance, has shown no resourcefulness in fighting it.

        Think FDR from 1932-1934, with Republicans blocking everything he tried to do.  He continued to throw bills against the wall.  He continued to tell Americans what he was trying to do for them.  He got the filibuster-proof Senate he needed in the midterms.

        Obama's best argument is that Americans got health insurance in the future when they needed jobs today.

        LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

        by dinotrac on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 05:55:55 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  exploding health care costs (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          dinotrac, Farkletoo

          were the biggest threat to our economy.  that's a fact.  if he hadn't passed the health care bill we would have a financial collapse caused by health care that would make the 2008 housing bubble look like a bump in the road.  

          but, you know, instead of dealing with that time bomb, he should have done what?  what should he have done?  hand everyone a fucking job?  buy everyone's houses for them?  he did the stimulus.  it kept us from a depression.  the job of actually making the economy work isn't the President's.  it's the job of the people of this country.  we have a free market economy.  

          so long and thanks for all the fish

          by Anton Bursch on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 10:16:13 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Don't know if they were the biggest threat, (0+ / 0-)

            but they certainly were -- and still are -- in the top 2 or 3.

            Trouble is, ACA doesn't do very much about them.  It makes health insurance cheaper for low-to middle income to purchase, so it definitely helps affordability.  Shifting the burden to taxpayers, however, doesn't address the drain on the economy, just who writes the checks.

            OTOH --

            No matter how bad ACA is, and I think it's a real stinker of a bill, it is real, it is in place, and it does have helpful provisions. That puts it miles ahead of anything Republicans have even claimed to want to do.

            LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

            by dinotrac on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 11:57:27 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  if Obama hadn't passed the bill (0+ / 0-)

              Mitt Romney would be winning this election with almost certainty promising to reform health care (the way he did in Mass and holding Obama to his promise to pass it in his first term) and Medicare WOULD be privatized in his first term with Social Security on the way to being privatized

              taxes would be cut, wars in the mid east would be started... it would be a 3rd Bush term

              i don't think we would aborb it as a country.  we would decline for a generation.  

              so long and thanks for all the fish

              by Anton Bursch on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 01:20:34 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  So she thinks cutting the 1% taxes will help? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Deejay Lyn, Joe B

      Sorry she is so uninformed.

    •  What has the President done for unions? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mightymouse

      Health care isn't fully implemented.  No Democrat prior to convention pushed success story.  

      Your daughter is the typical low info voter.  The current WH strategy was don't push for them.  It was try to show compromise and convert high info voters and the media.  And it was working.  But this is the downside.   Hope you can convert your daughter.

      “Mitt Romney is the only person in America who looked at the way this Congress is behaving and said, ‘I want the brains behind THAT operation.’ ” Former Democratic Congressman - Tom Perriello "Small Businesses Don't Build Levees" - MHP

      by justmy2 on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 05:49:11 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  It's easy to call people low-info. (4+ / 0-)

        Easier, I suppose than admitting life is not grand.

        The reality is that most people are not political junkies and info comes from a lot of places, including the things you encounter trying to get through life.

        My daughter definitely doesn't follow politics the way I do, but any campaign that caters only to political junkies is run by people who aren't nearly as smart as they think they are.

        LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

        by dinotrac on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 06:04:03 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  yeah, don't sweat the online experts on how to (0+ / 0-)

          relate to your own daughter.  Ugh.

          The GOP says you have to have an ID to vote, but $ Millionaire donors should remain anonymous?

          by JVolvo on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 07:26:29 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Not sure how one could take my comment (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            JVolvo, dinotrac

            as trying to specify how someone should relate to their family?

            “Mitt Romney is the only person in America who looked at the way this Congress is behaving and said, ‘I want the brains behind THAT operation.’ ” Former Democratic Congressman - Tom Perriello "Small Businesses Don't Build Levees" - MHP

            by justmy2 on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 09:18:01 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  not specifically you - multiple folks telling her (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              dinotrac

              what to tell her 'low-info daughter to straighten her out.'   As well as pushy, dumb 'so how would Romney xyz' argumentative rhetoric.   Yuck.

              The GOP says you have to have an ID to vote, but $ Millionaire donors should remain anonymous?

              by JVolvo on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 09:41:30 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  Low info does not equate to not smart (0+ / 0-)

          I could see how you could potentially take it that way, but that is not the definition and not my intent.

          Low info voter is customarily defined exactly as you just described it.

          The reality is that most people are not political junkies and info comes from a lot of places, including the things you encounter trying to get through life.

          My daughter definitely doesn't follow politics the way I do,

          That is not a judgement statement.  It is simply the fact and one of the reasons Romney could convince voters like you daughter that he has something to offer.

          “Mitt Romney is the only person in America who looked at the way this Congress is behaving and said, ‘I want the brains behind THAT operation.’ ” Former Democratic Congressman - Tom Perriello "Small Businesses Don't Build Levees" - MHP

          by justmy2 on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 09:17:09 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Perhaps the real question is what constitutes low. (0+ / 0-)

            And that might have as much to do with your purpose in stratifying voters as anything else.

            It seems to me that somebody who tries to keep up with the news, watches the debates (which includes my daughter and her husband -- they recorded the debates and invited friends over), is not fairly called low information.  Such people are absorbing the information made available and directed to them within the context of having a life.

            Now -- that might be a cynical political strategy by those running for office: make it difficult for intelligent people making an effort to get good information.

            In that case, I think the "low information" monikor more accurately applies to the campaigns.

            LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

            by dinotrac on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 01:46:56 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  This "low information Voter" thing is silly... (0+ / 0-)

              All votes are counted equally...they don't weight votes on political IQ.  And we only seem to consider those who vote Republican "low info voters".  We're on a political blog.  Obviously, politics are a focus for us.  Similar to the boys on the sports blogs.  

              We need to stop with the "low info voter" meme.  It's a distraction.  If the polls are correct, we have a hole to dig out of.  It's a shallow hole, but a hole none the less.  

              We can't change the past and it's time to stop dwelling on the debate and focus on today, tomorrow and the next month.

              I trust the President "gets it" better than we do.  He wants to win badly.  He will take the fight to Romney.  And I expect Biden to do better than expected, which means he will win big in the media.  That will stop this Romney surge.  Then the President will make the final push forward.

              Relax, stay focused, and continue to work for President Obama's reelection.

              •  I agree with you completely, and there is one (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                taffers

                very good reason for that:

                The voters are the voters, and the candidates know what they're getting into when they start the campaign.

                LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

                by dinotrac on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 02:19:47 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  This is a nice goal but it isn't the current state (0+ / 0-)

                If all voters had the same amount of info to base their decisions on, why was everyone so upset about the President not refuting romneys lie.  Today, there is micro targeting, and on of the targets are people who only absorb what they see at random.  That is why campaigns are willing to spend money on direct mail with clear falsehoods. B why Romney even buys ad time. There is a target.  They are not random.

                We cant wish it away.  And it has nothing to do with level of intelligence.  It has to do with level of interest.

                “Mitt Romney is the only person in America who looked at the way this Congress is behaving and said, ‘I want the brains behind THAT operation.’ ” Former Democratic Congressman - Tom Perriello "Small Businesses Don't Build Levees" - MHP

                by justmy2 on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 03:26:42 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

    •  I hope you explain to her (4+ / 0-)

      that Romney got himself elected governor of Massachusetts by touting his business experience and knowlege of how to create jobs. How did that turn out?

      47th out of 50 states in job creation. And he didn't run for re-election because his job approval numbers were in the 30's.

      •  I never explain things with fishy numbers. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        JVolvo

        I respect her too much for that.

        When Romney was governor, Massachusetts was in a period of full employment and no population growth.  That's not a recipe for rapid job creation.

        LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

        by dinotrac on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 06:20:22 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I'd ask her (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          politicalceci, rockhound

          if she really wants to have you and her grandparents buy health insurance on the open market.

          Like you, I'm in Illinois.  I'm a socialist.  We knew Obama as a senator and before that.  We know he's a centrist.  No surprises.  But you vote most progressive in primaries, least regressive in general elections - that's because Romney's policies will inflict real harm - serious harm, far worse than Democrats - on real people.

          Justice For Will Will spent his brief, courageous life fighting for the rights we all take for granted. Please share his story to support the fight!

          by KibbutzAmiad on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 06:23:49 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  If that statistic is a fishy number (0+ / 0-)

          than just what do you call Romney's blame of Obama for the state of the American economy?

          It seems to me that Romney is trying to have it both ways: absolve himself of any responsibility for lackluster job growth when he was governor AND blame Obama for lackluster job growth while president.

          •  Politics. (0+ / 0-)

            A little bit of truth mixed with a lot of kinda sorta and a healthy dollop of "You're kiddin' me".

            What Obama is on the hook for is not the mess he inherited, but his response to it.

            LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

            by dinotrac on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 11:48:30 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  What about her reproductive rights, as a young (0+ / 0-)

          woman, is she not pro choice?

          •  I wasn't aware that anybody is forcing her to have (0+ / 0-)

            any children.

            Beyond that, her family planning is her business.

            LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

            by dinotrac on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 01:42:02 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Of course it's her business thus my question, is (0+ / 0-)

              she aware that the party she is considering will be happy to deny her reproductive rights, just because she is a woman?

              •  I don't understand her to be considering a party (0+ / 0-)

                so much as an election.

                Frankly, I think the GOP's poor environmental stance would be a bigger problem for her than reproductive rights if she were considering a party.

                If she does end up voting for Romney -- and I think it's just something she's (very very uncomfortably) considering -- I wouldn't be surprised to learn that he was the only GOP candidate on the ballot to win her vote.

                LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

                by dinotrac on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 05:22:51 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

    •  The jobs losses and economic downtown (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      politicalceci, apimomfan2

      over the last six years are DIRECTLY related to Republican policies.
      After 911, Bush used shady tactics to "grow" the economy...like removing all safety measures in the mortgage obtaining process and eliminating many regulations for big banks. People with very little income were given mortgages they could never afford....but it was OK because the banks could just sell off their bad mortgages...times  a billion...then EPIC CRASH and many major banks nearly collapsed.
      All of that dealt a crushing blow to the economy. But under Obama was have been recovering.

      Anyone worried about job loss should not be supporting Republicans and their policies.

      •  downturn.... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        politicalceci

        meant to write "downturn" instead of "downtown".

      •  They are related to actions and events that (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        JVolvo, orphanpower, mightymouse

        took place before the current administration took office.

        No question.

        The problem is that the current administration hasn't won her confidence and she's pondering whether she can withstand 4 more years of the same thing.

        LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

        by dinotrac on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 06:25:03 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Slow (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          sharonsz

          I agree the recovery has been slow. And it is understandable that people are frustrated. I'm frustrated. I'm not working in my field, but instead have two part-time tangentially related jobs.

          But when the economy tanked/crashed, Bush and his fellow Republicans bent the rules and basically cheated the process because they did not want a slow recovery...they did things that were harmful long term to avoid the short perception of a bad economy.
          I'll take slow over reckless any day.

          Also, women need to retain the right to make decisions about their own bodies. Also Americans deserve the right to be able to get health care- not to be denied for a pre-existing condition-not to be told that another surgery is not possible because they have exceeded a lifetime cap.

          It is more that how things are right now. Things are getting better.

          •  Obama didn't handle it right from the word "go" (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            orphanpower

            they underestimated the scale of the crash, and they had no story about how it might take a long time.

            Krugman was right that they should have publicly called for more stimulus, even if it wasn't forthcoming, because that would tell the public that they understood the depth of the problem and were at least trying.

            Also the inattention to jobs over deficit for much of the first term was problematic.

            Again, it's probably correct to say Bush or Romney would have been worse, but that doesn't mean Obama's been great on the economy.

            An ambulance can only go so fast - Neil Young

            by mightymouse on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 08:06:28 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Team Obama (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              mightymouse

              was outstanding at winning the 2008 election. However, they did not do well at explaining the seriousness of the crash/run-on-the-banks/near collapse of the American economy as we know it.
              And yes, the players who were involved in the crash should not have been involved in the solution. Harsh regulations should have been put in place immediately. Certain people needed to see some jail time.
              And a clear recovery plan should have been "sold" to American that included a massive stimulus.

              Winning a campaign is about selling ideas/values and a way forward.
              But, being in office is also about selling ideas/values and a way forward...PLUS a lot of "how".

              Still cleaning up a mess is much harder than making the mess. Republicans make terrible messes.

    •  my wife switched from anthropology too (0+ / 0-)

      but not just because there didn't look like there were going to be enough jobs in that field in the next few years (due to recession and conflicts around the world), but also because it's kind of a useless job in the first place.  a luxury job.  like being a party planner.  like being an actor.

      she was dissapointed, but she didn't blame anyone.  she never believed she was entitled to work a career like that in the first place.  it's risky and unstable.  always was even before this election.

      i direct video games for a living and i am prepared to have to find a job in another field of computer science if i need to, because that's just life.

      the fact that some people think that they should vote 'the other guy' based on being upset that things aren't going their way just floors me.  especially when they are so smart otherwise.  do the fucking math.  the difference between Romney and Obama in regards to jobs for college graduates isn't even close.  

      we're in a slow recovery, but Obama is doing what can be responsibly done to keep us recovering.  Romney, if he actually got his way, would give us a short boost with huge tax cuts that would send us right off the economic cliff again at the end of this decade.  only worse.  and who's going to volunteer to be the next Obama and waste their career on the thankless job of cleaning up another GOP irresponsible tax cutter's mess?

      romney is right about people being entitled.  oh, sure, he's the pot calling the kettle black, but he's still right.  except that it's not 47%.  more like 97%.  spread across the economic spectrum from top to bottom.  we just believe we deserve success.  we think it should be easy and comfortable.  so we look for the easy and comfortable way to success even though we've been told our whole life that if it's too good to be true that it's not.  Romney's bullshit is too good to be true.  

      so long and thanks for all the fish

      by Anton Bursch on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 10:02:49 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Dear Dems......when you got 'em down......finish (4+ / 0-)

    them off. Enough of this Mr Nice Guy crap.

  •  Obama said last night that he is really (7+ / 0-)

    competitive.

    http://www.reuters.com/...

    During a fundraising trip in California, the president sought to reassure his supporters about his chances, despite his debate performance.

    "I am pretty competitive, and I very much intend to win this election," he said at a fundraising dinner that roughly 100 people paid $20,000 a ticket to attend.

    Obama will be back.

    President Obama, January 9, 2012: "Change is hard, but it is possible. I've Seen it. I've Lived it."

    by Drdemocrat on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 05:31:24 AM PDT

  •  Maybe this will finally kill this whole (16+ / 0-)

    "organize like you're 5 points down" meme. As one can see, liberals go fucking insane when they're behind.

  •  "People like to fight (10+ / 0-)

    for people who are fighting for them."  
    Well, in that case romney should be at around 20%..
    Obama has done nothing but fight for middle class jobs since being sworn in, during the worse financial disaster since the great depression.  Brought on by policies just like the ones thurston is presently peddling.  

    •  Too bad that isn't how things work. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mightymouse

      The President will differentiate now.   Old habits are hard to break.   I see this as an opportunity. We can kill the centrism gene.   The President may be forced to walk away from entitlement cuts on the record. Or declare how he plans to address it.

      “Mitt Romney is the only person in America who looked at the way this Congress is behaving and said, ‘I want the brains behind THAT operation.’ ” Former Democratic Congressman - Tom Perriello "Small Businesses Don't Build Levees" - MHP

      by justmy2 on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 05:58:23 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  really? (0+ / 0-)
      Obama has done nothing but fight for middle class jobs since being sworn in
      this is an overstatement.

      An ambulance can only go so fast - Neil Young

      by mightymouse on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 08:07:55 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  The last line. (4+ / 0-)

    Summed it up.

    "It should come as no surprise that people like to fight for people who are fighting for them."

    He didn't fight. He had better start or we're all toast.

  •  Obama is a closer. People always count him out (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    cdub24, politicalceci
  •  In 2008 I was worried. In 2012 I'm scared. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Deejay Lyn, apimomfan2

    We can't lose this. :(

    "I'm not mad at them (tea party) for being loud, I'm mad at us for being silent for the last two years. Where have we been"? "it was never yes HE can, it was Yes WE can". - Van Jones

    by sillycilla on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 05:40:28 AM PDT

  •  Hope Team Obama finally reads your words, Kos... (6+ / 0-)

    along with the words of all Progressives and Democrats that the President and his Administration haven't seemed to pay much attention to over the past few years.  Indeed, if they had, they certainly could have seen what a bunch of endless lies Romney would be spinning at the debate.  We Democrats-- who have been following politics just over the last decade alone--certainly saw this coming.

    Yes, I am STILL volunteering my butt off  for President Obama in states far away from where I live.  (There is no thought in the world that makes me more sick to my stomach than the words "President Romney and his Republican Administration.")  But I am flabbergasted that the President showed so little passion and willingness to fight last Wednesday--for his voters, volunteers and base AND for all the candidates who are running up and down the entire Democratic ballot in every state of our country--whether this be Elizabeth Warren, Tammy Baldwin, Claire McCaskill, Sherrod Brown or Democratic state legislators for starters!  

  •  For the life of me I cannot figure out what the (4+ / 0-)

    fuck Obama was thinking in that debate.  He may have handed the election to this dunce on a silver platter, all in a 90 minute time period.  And never have the stakes been higher than now with this complete batshit crazy of a "party".  If we lose this election it has to go down as one the most epic collapses in history.  Obama and team better get their shit together and fast.

  •  It only shows GOP money working (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Hatrax

    at its best to fool the electorate.  What happened last week also displayed a disturbing picture about lies, propaganda and seamless absorption by the national audience that night. Let's not mince words.

    Romney pulled 10 thousand miles worth of lies out of his derrière, won and fooled the public because of a singular narrative produced by RW media gate-keepers and operatives. Nothing more.

    Blaming Obama is buying into that narrative and doing what the RW puppet masters want. The GOP purposely wants to get us to devote full attention to fighting about the POTUS.

    Ask yourself, how would anyone else have done against the Gibson Gallop and the tremendous promotion of Romney's victory even though fact checkers proved it was a bunch of bull?

    Even more, if I were an American citizen who believed the crap Romney spewed the other night, I'd be ashamed and angry to take what Mittens said as gospel.  I'd further be ashamed to be cowardly and let the narrative play out without having the back of the POTUS and his wife.

    It's time to fight back and stop doing what the GOP narrative expects us to do.

    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." --Benjamin Franklin

    by politicalceci on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 05:50:01 AM PDT

    •  I saw Teddy Kennedy (6+ / 0-)

      mop the floor with Mitt Romney.    Kennedy hit first, hit fast, hit hard and kept him down for the count for the entire debate.   Romney didn't get a chance to spew BS because Teddy barely let him up  for air.  That's how you beat Romney, but it's not up to me or you or anyone here to make that happen.  Not a damned thing we can do to get Obama's people to follow Teddy's recipe.

      Ever get the feeling you've been cheated?

      by ActivistGuy on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 06:40:44 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I admire Sen. Kennedy (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        sharonsz

        and his win over Mitt Romney in the Mass. Sen. Races.  On that note, I would be inclined to agree with you.

        But a Presidential campaign (or any campaign for that matter) is not worked by just one person.  It is worked by many people using different ways to get the end result: a win for the person or the party they support. That's why a campaign is the equivalent to a political machine.

        The Republicans want to stop the machine and watch it fall apart.  They have a vested interest in depleting our momentum. Therefore, fighting each other and finger-wagging the POTUS helps them on their goal.

        That's why I advocate fighting back.  This is not just Mr. Obama's fight.  It's our fight to keep power out of the GOP hands. If they win, we suffer--debate or no debate.

        We are playing right into their hands with the hand-wringing. In fact, laying down and playing dead because of one debate is something we cannot do. Doing this confirms the Republican talking point that the Dems are weak and unorganized.

        I think Mr. Obama knows what he was doing that night.  Furthermore, I think he's heard a billion times from angry staffers and supporters how he did.  The unending caterwauling from the pundits have also probably caught his attention. He gets it.  

        So, being hopeless about the futility of whether Mr. Obama's people will change their strategy isn't going to cut it.  

        Instead, we've got to cut the puppet strings of the RW echo machine and stand up to fight for our future by ourselves, come hell or high water. It's time we have the POTUS' back instead of being fair weathered.

        "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." --Benjamin Franklin

        by politicalceci on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 08:36:51 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Obama's #s are going BACK UP in RAND (5+ / 0-)

    https://mmicdata.rand.org/...

    I found it interesting that that poll which tracks the same people all them time... found a small Romney bump that is fading

  •  Street Fight...jt (3+ / 0-)

    The president could have put this election away in the first debate. He failed. There are consequences for failure.

    One bad round does not mean the fight is lost, BUT momentum was lost; time was lost & money was gained for an adversary who was on his way down.

    Like Mike Tyson said: "Everybody has a plan until they get hit in the mouth."  Now it's time for PBO to show that he has the grit to fight his way back into this street fight with a vicious, lying prick.

    We'll see...jt

  •  Obama has dug a hole for himself, so a... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mightymouse, apimomfan2

    ...simply great performance in the next two debates isn't going to cut it. He needs to do better than just come out "looking Presidential", all statesman-like stoicism and allofness; he needs to come out swinging, and he needs to land every single punch. Hard. The first time Obama responds to Romney by saying that he agrees with him, or the first time he lets Romney just lie without calling him on it, or the first time he devolves into professor mode reciting an endless litany of CBO arithmetic as a way of "correcting" Romney, or the first time he lets Romney off the mat out of kindness or his misplaced sense of "bipartisan cooperation", he's screwed.

    And FWIW, I'm tired of hearing people say, "His team will be taking these next two seriously," since that implies that they didn't take the first one seriously. And, given the stakes, if they did that, maybe the whole fucking team should just pack it up and go home now...

    Cogito. Ergo sum ​​atheus.

    by Neapolitan on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 05:58:29 AM PDT

    •  This "he never called Romney out" meme is dead (7+ / 0-)

      wrong.

      He called Romney out on lies about Taxes, Medicare, HCR etc.

      Romney continued to lie, and at that point how many times can the president say "You have said over and over you are doing a $5 trillion tax cut for rich people."

      All he can do is wait for us and the media post-debate to point out that yes, Mitt was lying about his tax plan.

      When we stop putting leaders from the past up on pedestals and ignoring their flaws, we can start seeing our present leaders for what they really are.

      by PhillyJeff on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 06:24:54 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  It's not "dead", much as some... (0+ / 0-)

        ...may wish it to be. Show me an example of Obama calling out Romney on a lie, and I'll show you a textbook example of how not to do it. That's something you learn in 9th grade debate class.

        To the low-information dolts who'll nevertheless be choosing in November, all the post-debate honesty here and elsewhere won't mean a damn thing. Obama's greatest and best chance to set the record straight was during the debate. He failed to do it.

        Look, I realize the pain of Obama's disastrous outing it difficult for some to accept, but it was a truly awful and disappointing performance. And if Nitwit Romney somehow wins, there'll be tons of introspection, but the fingers of history will point at last Wednesday as the the moment Obama blew the lead, blew the save, blew the game...

        Cogito. Ergo sum ​​atheus.

        by Neapolitan on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 11:20:31 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  This Poll is Stale: Gallup Has it back at 50-45 (5+ / 0-)

    All polls are showing that the job numbers and the post-debate Big Bird stuff have put Obama back on top.

  •  Obama will come back but should learn (0+ / 0-)

    that he must fight. He has lost so many times before by playing it safe and not standing up for progressive ideas and policies. If he loses the main take away from his presidency will be that Democrats must be fighters, not professors.

    Conservatism = greed, hate, fear and ignorance

    by Joe B on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 06:18:08 AM PDT

  •  Get that conservative mojo back down (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mirandasright, ybruti

    One thing that was working until the debate was that the conservatives CORRECTLY felt that Romney was not one of them. They were not enthused about him or his chances.

    They have given Romney permission to move to the center because they want to beat Obama so badly.

    However, Romney should be hit on those flip flop positions to create that RINO feeling again.  

    There are TONS of videos, debate statements, position papers, etc that have Romney being pro-choice, anti-gun, pro gay rights, and now pro-teacher, no tax cut for rich, etc.

    Conservatives don't like RINOs.  They need to be reminded that his is the biggest RINO maybe ever.  Except for the lying part---they all do that.

    •  Exactly. Let's raise the stakes/penalties (0+ / 0-)

      In the debates, Pres Obama should ask him point blank about these positions and let him deny them again.  Point out that he said something entirely different a month ago. But don't stop there.....

      Pres Obama must use the walk back as an admission that conservatism is dangerous and scares people and Romney knows this.  

      Getting Romney to deny all his positions for ads is not enough. They need to say "Romney's current about-face from his 'severely conservative' views--even if it's only lip service to win an election-- is an indictment against conservatism.  It's an ideology that's proven disastrous for our economy and not what the American people want.  The Republicans know this. " This will burn the righties because it's Barack Obama saying it, and they will not have elected a true neo-con to defend their ideology.  Let's drag conservatism through the mud and see how long they'll stay silent!

      Calling Romney a liar willing to say anything is not enough. President Obama and the Dems need to say, "Romney is appearing to run away from all his positions, but what are the consequences if he really is as 'severely conservative' as he said just a couple months ago?  What will that mean for America?" Especially with a Republican congress? And then list the self-deportation comment, wanting war with Russia/Iran etc....

      "Stand! There's a cross you have to bear. Things to go through if you're going anywhere." - "Stand" Sly & the Family Stone

      by mirandasright on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 07:20:55 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Get Romney to disavow conservatives (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ybruti

        As you say "Romney is appearing to run away from his previous positions..."

        Ask him point blank "What is your current position on XYZ social issue."

        Romney has always been in a box and unfortunately President Obama let him escape that box.  But him back in it.

        On abortion Romney either says "I am Akin crazy" and then alienates the women voters (who we all know only vote one issue-snark) or he says something similar to once saying Roe v. Wade was settled, which would pucker up the Tea Party.  

        Any answer, ANY ANSWER will make 1/2 his 'base' have an adrenaline rush.

    •  Bad idea (0+ / 0-)

      Conservatives are going to vote for Romney.  They would vote for anyone to beat Obama.  Their enthusiasm may go down, and the Romney campaign might lose out on some donations, but the votes, for the most part, would be there.

      Showing him as a "RINO" is another way of saying showing him as a "moderate".

      You know who likes moderates- independents.  You know who likes "moderate" Republicans- conservative Democrats.

      The Obama campaign had a choice to make months ago, go after Romney (and all Republicans) as a right wing zealot, or go after hom as someone with no core convictions who will say anything to win.  Can't do both, they contradict.

      I believe they made the correct tactical choice then, and to try and flip it now would be a mistake.

      The best pizza comes from New York.

      by JakeC on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 10:39:01 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Word (4+ / 0-)

    Kos nailed it. Obama's debate performance was an epic blunder. And, he did seem more interested in pivoting to look reasonable so he can "fix" social security than win the election? WTF?

    That said.... he can and should still win. It is just a shame because he and his team had run a pretty much flawless campaign up to the debate.

    It seemed like a layup. He didn't need to win the debate, just tie or not lose too badly. Too let himself get run over by Romney and then afterwards think he did well (as the NYT said) showed that the big guy was pretty out of touch with reality.

    It's also an epic blunder because the whole GOP meme is that he is a nice guy who is in over his head. And, that's what he looked like at the debate - a nice guy in over his head. So, just like 47%, that kind of reinforcing dramatic moment has a big impact.

    I hope he really has gotten the message. Because of his blunder this election is no longer a gimme. I believe he can pull it off but he's going to need some luck in changing the narrative back. He pissed away a whole bunch of luck (47%, Clint) with that stupid head down performance.

    I still think the guy is Jordan but he was like Jordan trying to play baseball at that debate and it's time for him to get back to his strengths and kick some ass.

  •  Another possible factor? (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    vespers, mirandasright, sharonsz

    Democrats have been tearing their hair out daily since the debate?  There are even second-guessing stories coming out of the Obama campaign.  

    It's water under the bridge, folks.  Quit hand-wringing and move on the the next four weeks of the campaign.  Mitty is still the same contemptible, lying sack of shit he was before the debate and if we stay on our message, we'll beat him.

    "The test of our progress is not whether we add to the abundance of those who have much. It is whether we provide enough to those who have little. " --Franklin D. Roosevelt

    by jg6544 on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 06:50:58 AM PDT

  •  How did this happen? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    zekeaz, Midwesterners

    What happened to Obama's political skills?

    "This is what we call a total disaster ladies. I’m going to ask you to smell your armpits. That’s the smell of failure and it’s stinking up my office." – Sue Sylvester

    by myiq2xu on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 06:54:40 AM PDT

  •  How to correct this? Defend Social Security (5+ / 0-)

    I am a one trick pony on this subject, but I do think this was one of his biggest mistakes in the debate - as I've said elsewhere, how can a Democratic President say in public, never mind a nationally televised debate, that he agrees with someone who wants to raise the retirement age again and decimate the old age income of the baby boom and later generations?  it's appalling.  When are Democrats going to learn that their best ticket to electoral dominance is defending Social Security and Medicare, loudly and every chance they get.  And not just because it's good politics - Social Security is essential, it works, and all we need to do is fund it adequately by raising the tax base.  Benefits are NOT GENEROUS - so why on earth are the insiders in DC talking about cutting them, again (after the major benefit cuts of the 1983 Amendments, which I helped to write, and which were far more than a "tweak".)

  •  Stop Freaking Out (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    vespers, Wildthumb

    There is still time. Get your ass out and register some voters.  You'll feel empowered, and I won't have to listen to your bitching.

  •  There are so many people in this diary that (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    vespers, araina23

    are obviously for Romney that are blaming Obama for one weak night and never see that they are the problem. So sad.

    "Southern nights have you ever felt a southern night?" Allen Toussaint ~~Remember the Gulf of Mexico~~

    by rubyr on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 07:28:31 AM PDT

  •  So, based on my comment above: (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Wildthumb, sharonsz

    Get off your asses and work to get Obama reelected if you are so angry at him and in such despair. We are adults and should respond to problems with solutions not bitching and moaning and shouting about reality. Get off you asses and change the reality if you think things are so awful. Get up. Work. Donate. Call. Door knock. Be like Ghandi and make the change you want to see.

    "Southern nights have you ever felt a southern night?" Allen Toussaint ~~Remember the Gulf of Mexico~~

    by rubyr on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 07:35:45 AM PDT

  •  Can we chill just a little bit? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Wildthumb

    As Rachel Maddow has pointed out, nearly every incumbant president has lost their first debate. For the vast majority of them, it didn't matter.

    What I really don't get is how people can get so fired up about a pathological liar who's going to slash social programs and start world war three in the middle east. Let's just wake the #$%! up- don't panic, but get motivated. Before someone accidentally breaks some fingers with all that hand wringing.

    -this space for rent-

    by EsnRedshirt on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 07:38:18 AM PDT

  •  What kills me (0+ / 0-)

    is that he lost with women and he lost with Dems. I'll say that it's certainly played out in an anecdotal way both on this site and IRL. That being said we have the VP debate that could stop the bleeding and two more debates where he can turn it around and I'm willing to bet Obama will be on his game now more then ever.

    For crying out loud it's only the 9th of October. That is just shy of a month until the election. If one debate and a little under a week can bring this strong of a swing for one of the worst campaigns and one of the worst candidates in modern political memory then I suspect the opposite can still be true for one of the best campaigns and best candidates. Further, what the hell does pearl clutching do but tamp down our side? It's counter productive.

  •  I'm beginning to think the remedy here for me (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sharonsz

    might be to lay off this blog, other blogs, and cable news for awhile. There are lots of other things out there to handle, be involved with, and that are vastly more energizing and satisfying. Checking in after a couple more debates seems like a good idea, indeed.

    As we used to say in high school, this place is a bring-down, and if I'm going to GOTV I don't think this is a productive place. If GOTV is the only way to win this time, we'll need to get the hell outta here and let the moaners and defeatists have it.  

    "To hunt a species to extinction is not logical."--Spock, in Star Trek IV.

    by Wildthumb on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 08:06:20 AM PDT

  •  After the debate, Kos said "nobody worry" (4+ / 0-)

    Now he's worried.  And so am I.

    Yes, incumbent presidents rarely do well in first debates and yes, first debates rarely turn an election (if ever in the age of multiple debates, as 1960 and 1980 were single debate elections).  But there is a first time for everything.  We are beginning to see the "Democrats running scared" meme.  Even SNL is turning Obama into a punchline after using Romney as a punching bag for so long.  Obama can't let the MSM affix the dreaded figure of pathos, "can't connect with the ordinary person", "uncomfortable in his own skin" label to him after it stuck to Romney for so long.  (http://gawker.com/...)

    Fortunately, we still have a few weeks.  This is a demonstration of how Carter should have debated Reagan a month out instead of a week out.  If the election was held this week at the height of the post-debate meltodown, I wonder if Romney would similarly win in a landslide, a landslide which would have catastrophic consequences downballot.  Keep the Senate?  Gain ground in the House?  Fuhgettaboutit.  Fortunately, we have time to fix this.  Before the debate, it looked like the pro-Obama trend was hardening.  We can't let the pro-Romney trend harden.  

    •  "Rarely" is too strong, try "almost never" (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      sharonsz

      The concern trolling is pretty funny around here, The President isn't perfect, we should have learned this a long time ago. Mittens kept lying and lying. Is he going to be able able to repeat the same bullshit next debate? Nope.

      Give the fact checking time.

      "The Founding Fathers envisioned a robustly Christian... America, with churches serving as vital institutions that would eclipse the state in importance." The Real Ron Paul

      by 815Sox on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 09:10:11 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Cthulhu emerges to give his opinion (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sharonsz, NorthBronxDem

    (1)   The test of whether the candidate did "well" in the debate or "poorly" in the debate is whether he had more support or less support after the debate.   That is the single test which matters.  It doesn't matter if the candidate lies, or vomits on the stage, or delivers everything in a flat monotone.   This is the test.

    (2)   The concept of "bounce" is overwrought.   How well a candidate did in a debate by the measure of support after the debate measures the staying power of the increase or decrease in opinion.   A candidate who "won" the debate and scored a 20% swing in support for one day, and then had it all evaporate, did not "win."   A candidate who "lost" the debate and then had no change in the polls did not "lose."  

    (3)  Obama did poorly in the debate, and the measure of his poor performance is that he has allowed Republicans to rally around Romney (shown by higher numbers of self-identified republicans) and by slight losses in poll numbers.   This went from a 6 point race to a 4 point race.   That is a "loss" by any calculation, but it is not an end-of-the-campaign blunder.

    (4)  I suspect Obama did poorly in the debate because he is trying to walk a difficult line.   Obama knows that whatever he says in the debate, he will be held to by his own party.   For example, He's worried, because right now his coalition requires some ambiguity on social security and medicare -- he wants to take a chained CPI approach as part of a Grand Bargain, apparently, but he sure as shit doesn't want to say this because then both he and Romney will be "in agreement" on social security.   He wants to remain ambiguous, so that he can have maximum freedom later on.  As a result, he decided to offer nothing substantive in the debates, and was entirely lackluster.

    This was quite the gamble, but it made a certain degree of sense.   If Romney has done poorly, and kept to his prior positions, Obama had a real chance that the viewers would have simply decided that Obama was the way to go and left Romeny behind.   Unfortunately, gambles like this face the problem of the oppionent putting on a good show -- leaving the gambler lookinglike a chump.   And that is how Obama looked -- tentative, unwilling to commit, and generally lackluster.   Against a quiet Romney, this would have been fine, but here, it made for a poor showing.

    (5)   At this point, the American people want to see that Obama actually has some fire in his belly, that he, for lack of a better term, still wants the job.   Obama will probably do better in his next debate, but he still faces some tough issues, and he'd better be ready to answer those issues, not lecture like a college professor.   He's going to need to answer:

     (a)   What the hell happened in Libya?

     (b)   What is your plan for Iran?

     (c)   How do you handle China and Japan's standoff?

     (d)   Why don't you like Israel?

     (e)   Why isn't Europe pulling its fair share?

    These aren't fair questions.   The tendency will be to want to answer them with nuance, but nuance is hard to explain, so he'd better figure out a way to answer effectively.   If he does OK, then we can expect little change in the election; if he hands in another performance, his support will continue to erode.  

  •  I have to think... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Midwesterners

    ...this awful swing is a result of former undecideds who had not paid a bit of attention to campaigns and then watched the debate, and were swayed by "Moderate Mitt" vs a seemingly disinterested Obama.

    As for being half-witted....Evidently quality of wits is more important than quantity

    by Drummer1954 on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 09:23:00 AM PDT

    •  Some of that (0+ / 0-)

      Undoubtedly some of the swing also comes from people who never watched the debate, but who were swayed by how it was generally perceived by those who did watch it, whether it be through the media or speaking with other individuals.

      I love the polls that ask "Who won the debate" then break down the answer to show the overall results, as well as the results of just those who actually saw the debate.  Meaning, there is third set of results of people who did not see the debate but who are happy to weigh in on who won.

      The best pizza comes from New York.

      by JakeC on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 11:12:47 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  And some nitwit surrogate was saying on (0+ / 0-)

    MSNBC this morning that they thought this might help with the enthusiasm on our side.

  •  MSNBC and our strategy going forward (0+ / 0-)

    even though MSNBC is a cable entity, their effect on the extra-cable organizations and reporters is an important factor. I give you as an example, "the drudge report".
    Drudge, or fudge" as I prefer to call it, is an internet entity yet, it drives the messages of Murdoch's cable and newspaper businesses the way the news networks used to drive news cycles in the past. I think deminishing MSNBC's
    impact on the left's enthusiasm and the left's message is not realistic. I know it's an old cliche but, being an ex infantry soldier I would never send out horse cavalry to fight modern armor. Poland is a testimony to this. Chivalry and honor and the high road is important: but, the foe we face is ruthless: que the "borgs". Cheer up. That was the end of the first quarter. Enough with the circular firing squad. Go out and work your butts off because, if Obama and democrats lose and, so do you.

    romney = GOPperhead (the art of baffling with bullshit)(7)∞

    by longtimelurker on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 10:34:30 AM PDT

  •  A question (0+ / 0-)

    I've never seen the poll broken down this way- do we know the results, day by day, of the prior polls?  Has there ever been a significant lean one way or the other detected based on the day of the response?

    The best pizza comes from New York.

    by JakeC on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 11:09:21 AM PDT

  •  If the election was today (0+ / 0-)

    Romney wins Popular Vote
    Obama  wins Electoral College
    Rep's win  House
    Dem's win Senate

  •  Sorry but this is catastrophic. It's not (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Midwesterners

    being a troll to point out that Obama had this in the bag and that a freshman debater could have scored a few effective points against Romney. We'll still probably win but Obama let him back in the race and I have a right to be furious and concerned about that. It also brings to mind memories of the terrible budget concessions he was willing to make to Republicans.

    I donated the max to Obama of $5k and still strongly support him but it would be denial to act like this was not a horrible let-down.

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