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I think you'll be shocked, and very disturbed.  I mean Ohio is the whole ball game...Romney simply can't win without Ohio it is just mathematically impossible ( like his tax plan!)....Soooo who is going to count the vote in many Ohio locations and especially in Cinncinatti??  Follow me and find out....

Electronic voting machines owned by Mitt Romney's business buddy's and set to count the votes in Cincinnati could decide the 2012 election.
That's the ominous beginning of an article at truthout by Bob Fitrakis and Harvey Wasserman..They say that many of Ohio's voters will vote on machines owned by Hart Intercivic  which was taken over last year by H.I.G Capital.  These machines will be used in many locations in Ohio, and most prominently in Hamilton County in Cincinnati. They document who H.I.G Capital is
Prominent partners and directors on the H.I.G  board hail from Bain Company or Bain Capital both connected to Mitt Romney.  H.I.G  employees have contributed at least $338,000 to Romney's campaign.  H.I.G. directors , John P. Bolduk and Douglas Berman are both major Romney fundraisers as is former Bain and H.I.G, manager Brian Shortsleeve.
Link to article here
lin to article here
So, in the critical state of Ohio on election night, we can all be secure in the knowledge that the machines many people will vote on are owned and opereated by some of Mitt Romney's closest business buddies..  Don't worry just because they own the machines doesn't mean anything, there will be plenty of oversight right???  Again, Fitrakis and Waserman......
Ohio's very Republican Secretary of State is John Husted, currently suing in the U.S. Supreme Court to prevent the public from voting on the weekend prior to election day, as did Blackwell, and Governor Robert Taft in 2004. Husted and current Governor JOhn Kasich will control Ohio's electronic vote count on election night free of meaningful checks and balances..
OOps..Oh well...am I being too CT here?   Why would Romney's buddies want to own voting machines, I mean is it that profitable a business...Remember..Ohio is everything

9:35 PM PT: First time on the REC  list..thanks......Look , for all of you pooh  poohing such a thing as electronic voting machine fraud,....would you please answer one question...Why are almost all the companies that are getting into the business , exclusively right wing,...to a fault....Let me ask another question, if the roles were reversed...and some of Obama's Chicago buddies owned the vote machine companies do you think Republicans would be so calm about it...I think not...

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    " I am just a Patsy"...Lee Harvey Oswald

    by tvdude on Thu Oct 18, 2012 at 06:52:59 PM PDT

    •  thanks tvdude, please keep writing about this (40+ / 0-)

      we have to fight against all types of voter suppression and 'fixing' of voting machines.

      It is enough that the people know there was an election. The people who cast the votes decide nothing. The people who count the votes decide everything. ~~Joseph Stalin

      by SeaTurtle on Thu Oct 18, 2012 at 07:14:47 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Please don't (32+ / 0-)

        I'm going to be thinking evil thoughts about you tomorrow as I work in the ballot room of Ohio's largest county — the one that will decide Ohio's election — pulling the PAPER BALLOTS because we do not use the machines anymore. (We had only one touchscreen election – 2006. Sorry to burst your bubble).

        Take the "Can't(or)" out of Congress. Support E. Wayne Powell in Va-07. http://www.ewaynepowell.com/

        by anastasia p on Thu Oct 18, 2012 at 08:47:51 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Not all of the counties use electronic voting (25+ / 0-)

          machines. Some do. For instance:

          http://www.mcboe.org/

          From the Free Press:

          Electronic voting machines have been installed throughout the state which are owned, operated, programmed and maintained -- and will be tallied -- by Republican-connected firms.
          http://www.freepress.org/...

          and there is plenty of other evidence out there on the big old
          World Wide Web if you care to expand your knowledge.

          "Southern nights have you ever felt a southern night?" Allen Toussaint ~~Remember the Gulf of Mexico~~

          by rubyr on Thu Oct 18, 2012 at 09:56:15 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  You are misinformed according to reality. (13+ / 0-)

          http://www.sos.state.oh.us/...

          Here is the machine being used in 42 counties. Those are touchscreen and being used in 2012, so your claim that you only used them in 2006 is false, as these were used in the primaries.

          http://www.sos.state.oh.us/...

          This touch screen voting system is being used in 12 counties.

          http://www.sos.state.oh.us/...

          So that's 56 counties out of 88 using touch screen voting machines.

          Sorry to burst your bubble with reality.

          Texas is Texas, you know. The second you think you got it figured out, it will switch on you. Just ask Rick Perry in 2012.

          by Patience John on Fri Oct 19, 2012 at 02:43:05 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I believe anastasia (14+ / 0-)

            was talking specifically about Cuyahoga County, where Cleveland is located.  They are using paper ballots there which are optically scanned.  The touchscreen voting machines are in use in other counties in Ohio, but not Cuyahoga.  The Hart machines are in use only in Hamilton and Williams counties and there are not enough votes there to decide the election alone.  The Hart machines are optical scan machines and so there is a paper record of each ballot if there are any questions about counting the ballots.  The key thing for the candidates is to have the lawyers in place on Election Day and thereafter to make sure the paper ballots are not destroyed.  

            THIS JUST IN: Burger King announces a new sandwich: THE JOSH MANDEL PANTS ON FIRE WHOPPER! Two patties of BS covered in steak sauce, young cheese and no vegetables. No substance there, just bite!

            by Kurt from CMH on Fri Oct 19, 2012 at 06:13:35 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  moreover, the touchscreens produce paper records (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Febble, SpamNunn

              So, at the risk of repeating myself:

              Telling Ohio voters who are voting on touchscreens to check the voter-verifiable paper records is a useful message. (If "CMH" refers to the airport in Columbus, I guess that applies to you unless you're voting by mail?)

              Telling people that Mitt Romney's buddies are counting the votes in Ohio is neither true nor useful.

              Election protection: there's an app for that!
              Better Know Your Voting System with the Verifier!

              by HudsonValleyMark on Fri Oct 19, 2012 at 06:59:35 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  The iVotronics here in Franklin Co. (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                MooseHB, tb mare, Febble

                Produce an audit log, but whenever I have voted with this machine I have never seen visible names of candidates or For/Against votes for issues on the audit log-- each selection is displayed as a code, which, I presume, represents  a counter for a selection made in the process of voting.  I don't doubt that the iVotronic machines are accurate, but the paper audit log may not give voters an assurance that their selection was properly recorded. This all makes sense, because using a code for each selection also discourages tampering because a poll worker may not know what the codes mean.

                THIS JUST IN: Burger King announces a new sandwich: THE JOSH MANDEL PANTS ON FIRE WHOPPER! Two patties of BS covered in steak sauce, young cheese and no vegetables. No substance there, just bite!

                by Kurt from CMH on Fri Oct 19, 2012 at 09:50:42 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Nor is it at all false, regardless of what you (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                CuriousBoston, TheDuckManCometh

                say. If the tally is a machine tally of machine geneerated electronic signals, then the tally is by those owning the machines. The fact that there is a paper fallback in case of a challenge only matters in case of a challenge.

                There is nothing to prevent a machine from printing A and wiring B. Unless things have changed, attempts to be permitted to vet these machines by independent third parties have been consistently rebuffed.

                That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

                by enhydra lutris on Fri Oct 19, 2012 at 04:12:34 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  perhaps you haven't been paying attention (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Quicklund

                  Hart (the putative subject of this diary) is only used in two Ohio counties. That seems like a pretty good reason why it's false to tell people that Mitt Romney's buddies are counting the vote in Ohio.

                  Not sure what you mean by a "challenge." The paper ballots and records are used in the audit, and can be used in partial or full recounts. That's not a panacea, but it's pretty important: just ask Senator Franken.

                  There is nothing to prevent a machine from printing A and wiring B. Unless things have changed, attempts to be permitted to vet these machines by independent third parties have been consistently rebuffed.
                  Again, not sure what you're saying. Do you not consider California's Top To Bottom Review or Ohio's Project EVEREST to have been conducted by independent third parties?

                  That aside, I never claimed that the machines were prevented from printing A and tallying B. At the risk of howling obviousness, that is why the paper trail matters in the first place. And, yes, the paper trail is at best marginally useful if it is used, a point I have made several times in comments on this diary.

                  Election protection: there's an app for that!
                  Better Know Your Voting System with the Verifier!

                  by HudsonValleyMark on Fri Oct 19, 2012 at 06:27:20 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Those specific machines are used in (0+ / 0-)

                    some counties, and others in other counties. How many are owned by GOP partisans? What happened, for example to Diebold?

                    I know that one group, in Mass, iirc, fought and fought to get access, and were consistently denied it. They finally got one through back channels and found it easy to gimmick by the manufacturer/owner/installer. I also know that the CA Secretary of State penalized one manufacturer, cancelled their contract and forbid the use of their machines due to improprieties committed by said machines.

                    I know that there have been many cases of highly suspect behavior by machines of various brands, and, in one particular electin, in Ohio iirc among other places.

                    So, I vote and I get a paper copy which will be used if there is a recount, but if there isn't, then it is symbolic.

                    Now, what was this review of EVEREST and what did it entail and what is/was EVEREST?

                    That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

                    by enhydra lutris on Fri Oct 19, 2012 at 07:39:17 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I think this rates an "asdf" (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      enhydra lutris

                      Long story short, every voting system I can think of in widespread use has known security vulnerabilities. Those vulnerabilities could be exploited by Republicans, Democrats, Greens, Nazis, Illuminati, you name it -- at least in principle. It doesn't mean that we're sitting ducks, but it is a real issue (or several related issues).

                      I know that there have been many cases of highly suspect behavior by machines of various brands, and, in one particular electin, in Ohio iirc among other places.
                      I'm not sure what you mean. In Florida's 13th Congressional District in 2006, the machines appear to have determined the outcome, perhaps due to screen layout and/or calibration problems. In at least two elections, scanner miscounts initially led to wrong outcomes, which were later corrected. There are many other problem reports. There is no clear case of hacking, although Pima County, Arizona may provide one.
                      So, I vote and I get a paper copy which will be used if there is a recount, but if there isn't, then it is symbolic.
                      (Just to be clear, you don't "get" a paper copy -- if you did, it couldn't be used in a recount.)

                      No, I don't agree that the paper ballots or records are "symbolic" unless there is a recount. That would be rather like regarding my life insurance policy as "symbolic" unless I die. Now, if I had no idea whether my family would actually be able to collect the benefit, then it would be pretty much symbolic. IIRC, in some states it is practically impossible to get a recount of the paper, so in those states it is pretty much symbolic.

                      Now, what was this review of EVEREST and what did it entail and what is/was EVEREST?
                      Here is a Wayback of the home page, and a summary by the PIs.

                      Election protection: there's an app for that!
                      Better Know Your Voting System with the Verifier!

                      by HudsonValleyMark on Sat Oct 20, 2012 at 08:30:43 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Thanks for the information of EVEREST. What (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        HudsonValleyMark

                        i was recalling was that in some precicts in some states, totals rep[orted by at least one already suspect machine were greatly at variance with exit polls. At that time, the software was unavailable for review (and, of course, nobody knows that what is available is wht is in each machine.)

                        My statement about the paper copy was tht while I can verify that the paper copy agrees with my intent, I still have no idea what the machine sends out to be tallied. Lacking a recount, the paper copy simply goes in a box. This may not be quite so much of an issue in "scan" systems.

                        You note that gimmicking can be done by anyone, but, agin based on recall, it seems that many of the companies manufacturing and designing the machines and software are owned and run by stalwart GOP supporters, at least one of whom once promised to bring a particular election home for a particular candidate.

                        That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

                        by enhydra lutris on Sat Oct 20, 2012 at 09:11:25 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  exit polls! aaauuugghhhh! (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          enhydra lutris

                          (Sorry, been at this for a while.)

                          Exit polls are a really lousy benchmark for voting machines. I've been using a snappier pitch on this in the last few years: The 2004 exit poll projected that Kerry would win Minnesota, New Hampshire, and Pennsylvania by 14-15 points each. Not bloody likely. (It also projected that he would win New York by 31. Also not bloody likely -- and I really don't think that the lever machines were hacked.)

                          Doesn't mean you have to trust any particular voting machine results, just that the exit polls aren't a good benchmark. One of my greatest life regrets is that I played footsie with some people who did not understand this, at all, and I did not understand how at-all they did not understand it. I digress.

                          I don't think we're far apart on the paper issue. Simply having VVPATs doesn't make DRE counts trustworthy. Even having paper ballots doesn't make scanner counts trustworthy, although at least in that case we're perhaps more confident in the ballots than we would be in the VVPATs. However, a lot of people I talk with don't seem to have internalized that VVPATs, or even paper ballots, are really any use at all. It's fine to lobby for all hand counts all the time, but if we're not getting that -- and most of us aren't -- then we should try to make the best use of what we have, and make it better.

                          Yes, many voting machine companies have Republican connections. So it's possible that the machines have secret Republican vulnerabilities as well as known non-partisan vulnerabilities. For that matter, it's possible that the machines have secret Soros vulnerabilities unsuspected by the Republican owners. I wouldn't quite say that it is moot, but I'll say that the voting security experts I know see this less as a matter of "Republican stealer machines" (a phrase I've encountered, not sticking the words in your mouth!) than of intrinsically unreliable systems that need to be subject to independent verification.

                          That's the back end, but what about the front end? In the early years of the HAVA era, a lot of states and counties signed contracts that gave them almost no rights to inspect the equipment and code that they were paying for. A lot of those contracts are still in force. Here in New York, which was an extremely late adopter, the systems went through pretty intensive hardware and software review prior to state certification. So, things have improved somewhat from what you have in mind, but I wouldn't say the problem has been solved.

                          (Wally O'Dell didn't really promise to bring Ohio home, but he richly deserved to lose his job. However, the fact that he did lose his job doesn't make me feel much better.)

                          That's my lay attempt to distill some of what I've heard from brilliant experts in what isn't my field. Doug Jones and Barbara Simons recently published a super book, Broken Ballots, that it seems you might really enjoy and appreciate.

                          Election protection: there's an app for that!
                          Better Know Your Voting System with the Verifier!

                          by HudsonValleyMark on Sat Oct 20, 2012 at 12:31:16 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  OK, I go along with that. One other (0+ / 0-)

                            vulnerability, historically demonstrated, happened in CA. IN SoCal, the Diebold machines started phoning in to the GOP headwuarters, well before the polls closed. Nobody from the GOP would ever testify as to what the contents of the data stream was, but the reasonable assumption is that the machines were sending preliminary results so that they could fine tune their GOTV efforts. That's the company that the SOS banned.

                            That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

                            by enhydra lutris on Sat Oct 20, 2012 at 12:38:04 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

            •  So What? (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Patience John

              They were dismissing the risk across the entire state simply because their one county doesn't use them. That is the kind of narcissism that leaves Republican voters even more disenfranchised than anyone else, in denial of how "their team" screws them first.

              "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

              by DocGonzo on Fri Oct 19, 2012 at 08:45:43 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Can we simply ask all voters to save their (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              biscobosco

              printouts?

              "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." Sinclair Lewis, 1935 --Talk of foresight--

              by tuma on Fri Oct 19, 2012 at 10:49:38 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  No, it is the audit trail and has to be protected (0+ / 0-)

                But with the advent of iphones, I don't see why they couldnt photograph it!

                "We have always known that heedless self-interest was bad morals; we know now that it is bad economics" - F.D.R.

                by biscobosco on Fri Oct 19, 2012 at 02:56:39 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

      •  Please do (26+ / 0-)

        don't let the concern get in your way. This information needs to get out there--along with the information on the other 2487 ways the GOP is trying already to steal the vote.

        Remember, all you hear from MSM is how important Ohio is. And there's some history.

        Pooh-pooh at your own peril...

        It is time to #Occupy Media.

        by lunachickie on Thu Oct 18, 2012 at 09:03:41 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  IMO the most important issue in the election. (13+ / 0-)

        Does anyone remember the Diebold zip archive named 'rob_georgia.zip'?  (Not sure about the under bar, I quote from memory.)

        These surfaced after the entirely unexpected defeat of Max Baucus in the Georgia senatorial election in 2002.

        This is one of the great unreported stories of the last decade.

        The hungry judges soon the sentence sign, And wretches hang, that jurymen may dine.

        by magnetics on Fri Oct 19, 2012 at 07:02:11 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  named for an employee named "Rob" (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          CuriousBoston

          Or so I am led to believe by none other than Bev Harris, who interviewed the employee, Rob Behler. (I'm not exactly a Bev Harris fan in general, but this interview seems plausible to me.)

          Apparently this file was used in 2002 to patch machines in DeKalb County (part of metro Atlanta) with uncertified software. That's bad. On the other hand, the results in DeKalb County weren't facially anomalous. On the third hand, I think unverifiable voting is a lousy idea regardless of whether and how the machines were patched -- and Behler's story underscores why we shouldn't rely on assurances of procedural safeguards.

          So, dunno if it is one of the great unreported stories of the last decade, but I do think it is long past time to get rid of paperless DREs.

          Election protection: there's an app for that!
          Better Know Your Voting System with the Verifier!

          by HudsonValleyMark on Fri Oct 19, 2012 at 08:18:05 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  How reliable are the paper trails? I've heard (3+ / 0-)

            it's not hard to hack or reprogram DREs to alter election totals.  Are paper ballots a serious deterrent?  Is it all that difficult for someone with access to program machines to, say, show the voter a ballot with a vote for Obama, and have it internally report a percentage of tose votes as being for ROmney?

            This is something I'd love to stop worrying about.  But I haven't yet.

            --------------------- “These are troubling times. Corporation are treated like people. People are treated like things. …And if we ever needed to vote, we sure do need to vote now.” -- Rev. Dr. William J. Barber

            by Fiona West on Fri Oct 19, 2012 at 10:43:38 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  it depends on how the paper is used (5+ / 0-)

              I agree with plan9pub that many people trivialize the practical obstacles to hacking a bunch of DREs -- but the programming challenge is small. Conceptually, it isn't hard to create an electronic record that disagrees with the paper.

              Therefore, the paper records should be used in routine post-election vote tabulation audits, and should be readily accessible for partial recounts as well as full recounts. The paper doesn't accomplish much if nobody ever looks at it.

              (FWIW, I don't just pay lip service to post-election audits: I've worked hard to promote and to implement them.)

              Election protection: there's an app for that!
              Better Know Your Voting System with the Verifier!

              by HudsonValleyMark on Fri Oct 19, 2012 at 11:26:59 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  It was Max Cleland. Baucus is from MT. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          glorificus
    •  Oh Jesus F. Christ, stop it. (43+ / 0-)

      Yes, you are being too CT — and helping to damage our chances of carrying Ohio. There is zero proof of voting machines being so hacked.While I generally respect Bob and Harvey, they can get a little too carried away by presenting speculation as likelihood.  These connections are extremely tenuous and most counties aren't using these machines anyway.

      Also to say "Husted and current Governor John Kasich will control Ohio's electronic vote count on election night free of meaningful checks and balances" is basically untrue. The counties count their own votes in a bipartisan system. I will be among the many people doing it in the biggest county in Ohio, the one that will decide the election. But we don't use electronic machines up here.

      Also the article must be out of date because it references the weekend voting case which is settled.

      My concern is that by being bedazzled by these elaborate vote-flipping theories, which are pretty unlikely, we are misdirecting our attention and taking our eye off the ball. What the Republicans are looking at is voter suppression and probably ballot (not voter) challenging. And we're not paying attention because this sounds more glamourous.

      Take the "Can't(or)" out of Congress. Support E. Wayne Powell in Va-07. http://www.ewaynepowell.com/

      by anastasia p on Thu Oct 18, 2012 at 08:35:06 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  With all the shenanigans going on (36+ / 0-)

        the last thing we should be doing is pooh-poohing any possible potential for the lying bastards to even get close to the vote counts.

        Your concern is noted.

        It is time to #Occupy Media.

        by lunachickie on Thu Oct 18, 2012 at 08:41:41 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  No, that is the first thing we should be doing (15+ / 0-)

          when the "possible potential" is either wildly unlikely or literally impossible — and meanwhile, they are doing something else that we aren't paying attention to because this crap sounds more exciting.

          Take the "Can't(or)" out of Congress. Support E. Wayne Powell in Va-07. http://www.ewaynepowell.com/

          by anastasia p on Thu Oct 18, 2012 at 08:49:45 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Oh, so we can't do more than one thing at a time? (25+ / 0-)

            Since when? You know damned good and well these bastards will do anything to get elected.  To pooh-pooh such a thing and insist it would probably not happen is beside the point.

            The point is, these desperate liars need to understand that people are watching them. Waving it off could embolden them. That's just as foolish.

            It is time to #Occupy Media.

            by lunachickie on Thu Oct 18, 2012 at 08:55:33 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  But you aren't watching them (14+ / 0-)

              You're buying into crazy shit, claiming machines used in only two Ohio counties — one of which is Williams (! please) — will somehow steal the election.

              Take the "Can't(or)" out of Congress. Support E. Wayne Powell in Va-07. http://www.ewaynepowell.com/

              by anastasia p on Thu Oct 18, 2012 at 09:01:44 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Who are you to speak for anyone else (19+ / 0-)

                and what they might be doing or buying into?  

                 What I'm saying is that we should not discount anything where anyone having anything to do with vote counts could put Mittens at (yet another) advantage.  You seem hell-bent on convincing others that there's just nothing to see here. And that is foolhardy. At best.

                It is time to #Occupy Media.

                by lunachickie on Thu Oct 18, 2012 at 09:11:53 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Anastasia.... (11+ / 0-)

                Blackwell/Bush did steal Ohio in 2004.  Remember when they moved the tallies to the offsite computers in Tennessee?  That was fact.  

                Remember the BushCo computer guy from Ohio who died as the pilot and sole passenger of his airplane on the way home from a DC meeting?  I can't remember the company name, but he was an expert pilot... and just before he was to be  questioned in a court room regarding the computer set-up that flipped the election. That situation died with his death on Christmas eve just before his testimony was scheduled.

                I don't put anything past these people.  But ObamaCo is smarter and tougher than John Kerry, so they won't just let it go if something happens.

                •  That, too (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  glorificus, CuriousBoston
                  ObamaCo is smarter and tougher than John Kerry, so they won't just let it go if something happens.
                  And I doubt they'll be consulting with the riposte-obsessed concerners on this blog before they do.

                  It is time to #Occupy Media.

                  by lunachickie on Fri Oct 19, 2012 at 06:13:19 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  you've been misled (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  dnta

                  I can only guess the picture in your mind, but saying that "they moved the tallies to the offsite computers in Tennessee" implies that the tallies were no longer in Ohio. That isn't true.

                  If you have a website, you may have no idea what state (or country) the website server is in -- but it doesn't inherently matter. Certainly the existence of the server doesn't demonstrate that your website has been hacked, much less that your local copy of the website data has been hacked.

                  Unfortunately, that's about as far as this particular line of allegation ever has gotten: "server in Tennessee, therefore fraud." It makes no sense.

                  Mike Connell, who was not "an expert pilot," had already given a sworn deposition. I have no idea why people are so sure that (1) he lied in that deposition and (2) he was on the verge of saying that he had perjured himself in it.

                  Election protection: there's an app for that!
                  Better Know Your Voting System with the Verifier!

                  by HudsonValleyMark on Fri Oct 19, 2012 at 07:13:06 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Of course you're right (5+ / 0-)

                    The presence of Smartech (the company that owned the servers in Chattanooga) servers in the signal path of the Ohio Secretary of State's election results data proves absolutely nothing.

                    But you have to be a moron to look at this schematic of the "SOS Election Production System", and not be disturbed and highly suspicious.

                    Why the f*ck were the same computers, or at least computers run by the same outfit that hosted the missing Karl Rove emails, as well as a bunch of other Republican political operations, included in the network for Ohio's vote tabulation and result reporting system?

                    I agree with you that this proves nothing by itself. And I personally have yet to see empirical evidence that even a circumstantial case can be made for the facilitation by the presence of the Smartech server of theft.

                    BUT...

                    Ohio election data should have never been routed to those servers. And the fact that they were, or even had the potential to be, warrants a criminal investigation.

                    As for Mike Connell's death, I don't investigate plane crashes. Especially on the internet. But your assertion that there was no motive because he'd already made a deposition in the King v. Blackwell case is just silly.

                    As I alluded to above, Connell was a central witness in the investigation of the missing Rove emails, which if memory serves, were being sought by Rep. Henry Waxman.

                    For all I know, those emails really did get deleted by accident right before they were requested by Waxman. And Connell may have been a useless witness. But you don't know that. And neither do I.

                    What we do know is that the Bush administration was a bunch of criminals that make the mafia look nice. A couple of fairly powerful congressmen were starting to dig around in Smarteck's operations, which led directly to the Bush operations. And the chief witness suddenly dies in a plane crash right before being called to testify.

                    You have to be a moron to not be suspicious. As any prosecutor who's done mob cases will tell you, there's not "extraordinary" about this case.

                    Understand, it's not that I believe that dude was murdered. I don't. I have zero evidence that he was murdered. My point is that if he were murdered, it would not be particularly extraordinary, and certainly not unthinkable as many seem to believe. I mean how naive do you have to be about what kind of people the Bush junta are to feign outrage over the suggestion that they murdered someone. The cognitive dissonance is astounding.

                    Which leads to my final point here. It is not CT to be suspicious, or to even hypothesize election theft by Republicans, or any one for that matter. People have been trying to steal elections, sometimes successfully, since our country's founding.

                    More recently, we know for a fact that Republicans have conspired to steal elections. The illegal purging of eligible, black voters from the Florida voting rolls in 2000 was a criminal conspiracy.

                    Republicans have repeatedly conspired to illegally suppress voter turnout and deprive Democrats of their right to vote. This has been well documented, and people have gone to jail.

                    So to compare suspicions of election theft, or even unsubstantiated assertions of election theft, as unfortunate as that may be, with Trutherism is nothing but pure and insipid propaganda.

                    As is the attempts to silence those who raise concerns, with even low degrees of legitimacy, because it may "helping to damage our chances of carrying Ohio."

                    There is a lot more evidence to support computer election theft than there is to support the completely unsubstantiated assertion that talking about, raising concerns over, or even wildly speculating about conspiracies to steal election via computer somehow suppresses votes or in any way harms Democratic candidates' chances at the polls.

                    Which is to say, there's no evidence at all. On the other hand, there is evidence to support the assertion that even unsubstantiated hysteria, if it's widely shared, over possible vote hacking can get the issue on the table and may even lead politicians to make some positive reforms.

                    Just look at how Republicans have used a completely, ridiculously untrue claim of widespread voter fraud to rally up a frenzy and pass legislation to "eliminate this severe threat to democracy."

                    Yes, we all know the real reasons behind this move. But the point is, you're full of shit. The great, pervasive flaws in our electoral system only come up around election time. That's the nature of public attention. Out of sight, out of mind. So it is at this moment that electoral reform must be tackled.

                    And coincidentally, it is also at election time that the usual band of naysayers all come out of the woodwork, like termites, to tell everyone we can't question the integrity of election or "the peoples may stay home."

                    Yes, unsubstantiated allegation need to be quashed. We're the reality based community right? But that's not what you and the other usual suspects are doing here. You're not only attacking bad logic and dubious assertions, you're attacking the very idea of even raising these concerns.

                    •  shrug (0+ / 0-)
                      Ohio election data should have never been routed to those servers. And the fact that they were, or even had the potential to be, warrants a criminal investigation.
                      I have no idea why. You can call me a moron, but I've never seen someone with credentials in election security call for a criminal investigation related to SmarTech -- and I know a fair number of people with such credentials.
                      So to compare suspicions of election theft, or even unsubstantiated assertions of election theft, as unfortunate as that may be, with Trutherism is nothing but pure and insipid propaganda.
                      You're tilting at a windmill here. Offering "unsubstantiated assertions" isn't per se much like Trutherism, but insisting upon facts that aren't factual -- and then characterizing rebuttals of those "facts" as opposition to investigation -- does seem like something a Truther might do.

                      As for your argument that the comparison is unfair because... -- I dunno, because election fraud is more plausible than state-sponsored terrorism? -- I think you should have to make your case to a Truther. I'll sit back and watch.

                      Yes, unsubstantiated allegation need to be quashed. We're the reality based community right? But that's not what you and the other usual suspects are doing here. You're not only attacking bad logic and dubious assertions, you're attacking the very idea of even raising these concerns.
                      O RLY? Where did I and my "band" of "termites" do that? Which concerns, specifically, am I attacking the very idea of even raising?

                      Election protection: there's an app for that!
                      Better Know Your Voting System with the Verifier!

                      by HudsonValleyMark on Fri Oct 19, 2012 at 11:50:40 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  I didn't call you a moron (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        glorificus, TheDuckManCometh

                        Aren't you suspicious by the insertion of a server used for Republican political hackery into the network of a state's election system? Are you not disturbed?

                        When I wrote my comment, I didn't know either way. So it was open ended whether you're a moron or not. Less so now after your obtuse response.

                        If I have to make the case for why Ohio routing their election returns to Karl Rove's servers, which is essentially what they were, is a severe breach of election security and integrity, and warrants a criminal investigation, even without the intent of altering the data, then you're just too stupid to have a conversation with.

                        Is that really the case? Do I have to spell that out for you. I'm just asking? I'm not saying you're stupid. Yet.

                        You're tilting at a windmill here. Offering "unsubstantiated assertions" isn't per se much like Trutherism, but insisting upon facts that aren't factual -- and then characterizing rebuttals of those "facts" as opposition to investigation -- does seem like something a Truther might do.
                        What the fuck are you talking about here? LOL.  Offering "unsubstantiated assertions" is very much like Trutherism. The difference, which I made perfectly f**king clear, is that Trutherism asserts that our own government, or actors aligned with it, wired the freaking twin towers with explosives and caused their collapse. Now that's an extraordinary claim. It's also a claim that is widely viewed to be ridiculous.

                        The difference I clearly, and unambiguously laid out, is that, unlike Trutherism, the idea that Republicans are trying to steal an election is NOT AN EXTRAORDINARY CLAIM. In fact, based on years of accumulated evidence, the extraordinary claim would be that Republicans don't try to steal elections!

                        I spelled that out already. I don't don't believe that you are that stupid. I thing you are engaging in deliberate sophistry to try and deflect my arguments.

                        I've never seen someone with credentials in election security call for a criminal investigation related to SmarTech -- and I know a fair number of people with such credentials.
                        This argument is so comically desperate that I'm going to just let it ride.
                        •  The argument that Republicans (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Quicklund

                          are trying to steal the election by electronic means IS an extraordinary claim, IMO, and one quite unsupported by any evidence.

                          What is supported is the claim that election theft is potentially possible in the US, and you need good mandatory audits of voter-verified paper ballots and secure chain of custody of those ballots between castingc, counting, and audit.

                          [/termite]

                        •  LOL (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Quicklund

                          No, and I didn't say you did. I said you could. Prescient, eh?

                          If I have to make the case for why Ohio routing their election returns to Karl Rove's servers, which is essentially what they were, is a severe breach of election security and integrity, and warrants a criminal investigation, even without the intent of altering the data, then you're just too stupid to have a conversation with.
                          Shorter James Hepburn: "If you don't already agree with me, you suck." Yup, this is exactly the quality of argumentation that I am calling out. I imagine you are about to explain to me why it is my fault. Or perhaps Dana Houle's.

                          It's "comically desperate" to comment that I don't know of any competent expert who agrees with you? Didn't feel very desperate to me.

                          No sophistry on this end. I critiqued a specific argument by analogy to a specific Truther template, and you churned up some irrelevant argument about election fraud in general. Perhaps not coincidentally, there are Truther templates for that, too. Anyone who criticizes a Truther argument is likely to be told, before very long, that s/he rejects the very possibility that a government would kill its own people (or that "the neocons" would sacrifice American lives), or some variation without any textual or logical warrant.

                          Election protection: there's an app for that!
                          Better Know Your Voting System with the Verifier!

                          by HudsonValleyMark on Fri Oct 19, 2012 at 01:33:27 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                      •  FWIW: WH should treat it like a crime scene (0+ / 0-)

                        "Author says National Archives can't be trusted to secure Bush Administration computers, thus Obama staff must treat them like live evidence."

                        http://www.zdnet.com/...

                    •  Termites eh? (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Quicklund

                      I agree that there's nothing wrong with being suspicious.

                      I also agree that there was appalling skulduggery in Ohio (and elsewhere) in 2004, and 2000, and that the US has a terrible history of systematic disenfranchisement of people likely to vote Democrat.

                      But that doesn't make me a termite, nor does the fact that I think that the arguments that Kerry "really" won Ohio but the victory was stolen electronically make sense of the evidence we have.  And even if Kerry would have won Ohio had the playing field been flat (it wasn't), Bush had a sizable majority in the popular vote.

                      And the evidence that that majority was due to electronic vote theft is, contra many passionate claims to the contrary, zilch.  

                      Not only does the exit poll data not point to that, the exit poll data IMO actually is substantial evidence against it.

                      •  sorry to disappoint you (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Febble

                        but you were not included in my out of the woodwork reference. I have always respected your analysis and my comment was limited to those who make the dubious assertion that raising concerns over election fraud suppresses voter turnout.

                  •  I read every word (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    glorificus, TheDuckManCometh

                    of Mike Connell's depositions, and everything around those court proceedings.

                    As a person who has managed and designed software systems (engineering with 29 years of experience), I can tell you that it is very possible that something illegal occurred in Ohio in 2004.

                    Mike's lawyers halted many questions from being answered, and there were numerous statements made that had questionable answers.  

                    What I am telling you is that there were no ends tied up in those depositions.  

                    Any reasonable person could certainly believe that there was some illegal activity.  There was still a court case alive regarding the Ohio 2004 question as of last year.

                  •  FWIW Connell's election eve deposition (0+ / 0-)

                    was kept brief by the presiding judge who decided that the circumstances warranted his appearance under oath before the election but did not want to eliminate the chance for Connell to do his job on the busiest day of his business cycle.

                    The point may not be obvious, but many other avenues of questioning were left for asking on presumed later dates.

          •  Hacking voting machines impossible? lol (5+ / 0-)

            NOW SHOWING
            Progressive Candidate Obama (now - Nov 6, 2012)
            Bipartisan Obama returns (Nov 7, 2012)

            by The Dead Man on Fri Oct 19, 2012 at 05:36:01 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Stop insulting a poll judge who knows this issue (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          dnta

          You concern over concern is cancerous in this case. Don't be a dick to a person who actually works in the OH polls.

          •  They've Failed Before (6+ / 0-)

            Several recent Ohio elections have been stolen, right under the noses of Ohio poll judges. Probably including this one. The idea that anyone in Ohio would dismiss any threat to their state's voting integrity is shocking. They've got a lot of ground to make up before they can afford to be complacent.

            "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

            by DocGonzo on Fri Oct 19, 2012 at 08:52:10 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  ...how many people will this pie fight help? (0+ / 0-)

            ...how many people will this pie fight help? Will this convince one other person to volunteer to make sure that the 2012 vote isn't stole?

            I understand anastasia's problem with this diary, since she is a poll worker and actually in Ohio like me, even though she's wrong.

            But everyone else piling on to this is not helping our cause. We have to be watchful, we have to be vigilant. Or Bush V. Gore will become Romney v. Obama. Whether you believe 2004 was stolen or not, we have to be watchful.

            "I read this- Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand. I read every last word of this garbage, and because of this piece of $#!^ I'm never reading again!"-Officer Barbrady

            by Broke And Unemployed on Fri Oct 19, 2012 at 10:55:53 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Everyone on DKos has been "watchful" for years (0+ / 0-)

              I take that as a given. Ohio electoral machines have been under suspicion for years. Seriously. This is not news.

              What I am objecting to in this diary is the rejection of quality information in preference for unsupported conjecture. When people with first-hand knowledge of the Ohio situation report that these machines are used in 2 of 88 counties, it is annoying to read people insist upon things like 'most of Ohio uses these machines'.

              In this specific message chain we have one such fact-rejecting poster calling a veteran poll worker a concern troll. Poll workers work long hours on election day and are hard to find. So why are you or anyone else inclined to defend the slander of anastasia's first-hand factual accounts to be trolling?

              Why are you criticizing me for defending her? Why is not everyone defending her, and criticizing those who reject her expert commentary as trolling?

      •  In 2004 OH was stolen above the level of (28+ / 4-)

        counties.  The results of each precinct (county?) were sent to a central tabulating computer system located outside of the state, then routed back into Ohio.  The electronic voting machines were a red herring and successfully distracted people from actual fraud that took place.

        In such a fraud scheme, counting the actual votes doesn't amount to a hill of beans.  The perps adjust the results as needed and as long as a hand count is avoided, no problem.  They also see that the original voting data is destroyed, misplaced, or somehow unavailable for later scrutiny.

        Given what the GOP has already done in full view of the public regarding voter suppression, it's shocking that anyone would think they aren't taking whatever actions are necessary behind the scenes to ensure OH goes to Romney.  Make no mistake, OH WILL go to Romney, or Obama will win by a huge margin.

        "When I was an alien, cultures weren't opinions" ~ Kurt Cobain, Territorial Pissings

        by Subterranean on Thu Oct 18, 2012 at 08:58:41 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I HR'd this for its complete lack of truth (10+ / 0-)

          Yes, the results WERE counted in the counties. If there were some counting problems (wink wink) in southwest Ohio, it was because those boards of election in places like Warren, Greene and Clermont were friendly to the GOP cause. and they did it themselves. It didn't have to leave the local BoE. (Y'all remember what happened in Warren, right?)

          All of what you say is not only untrue but impossible. Seriously, they sent a tally of hand-counted punchcards like we were using that year to some "central tabulating computer system" to get changed? And there were virtually no electronic voting machines in Ohio that year to BE "red herrings" whatever that means.

          Some voting data was indeed destroyed or misplaced but your misreading of how that happened and where and what it meant is egregious. Go back to what I said about Clermont, Warren and Greene and think a little more.

          Again, there were almost no electronic machines in use in Ohio in 2004. Sheesh.

          Take the "Can't(or)" out of Congress. Support E. Wayne Powell in Va-07. http://www.ewaynepowell.com/

          by anastasia p on Thu Oct 18, 2012 at 09:07:54 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Wrong, wrong, wrong (14+ / 0-)

            Of course results were counted in the counties.  

            I never said electronic machines were used in Ohio, I said they were a red herring in the 2004 election.  People fixated on the electronic voting machines, while the election was stolen by other means.  

            The deal in OH was that the tallies from each county were reported to a central tabulation computer, and they were "fixed" at that computer.  The IT guru who set the scam up was all set to testify when he died in a small plane crash.  Yes, you read that right.  

            It's late otherwise I'd find citations, but this isn't CT, it's real and it was discussed at dKos.  I resent being HRd because you find my post disagreeable.  

            "When I was an alien, cultures weren't opinions" ~ Kurt Cobain, Territorial Pissings

            by Subterranean on Thu Oct 18, 2012 at 10:10:24 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Citations in post below this one (5+ / 0-)

              Please remove your unwarranted HR.

              "When I was an alien, cultures weren't opinions" ~ Kurt Cobain, Territorial Pissings

              by Subterranean on Thu Oct 18, 2012 at 10:18:43 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  no, it's warranted (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                ccyd, Argyrios, Quicklund, Cat Whisperer

                Unfortunately, so much bullshit has been written on this topic that having "citations" isn't intrinsically worth much.

                If you seriously want to argue that a server in Tennessee was a "central tabulating computer system," you're in the "fell at free fall speed into their own footprints" realm where words mean whatever one wants them to mean. Citations can't help with that. I'm happy to stipulate that you don't realize you are in that realm.

                The IT guru who set the scam up was all set to testify when he died in a small plane crash.
                Did you ever read Connell's sworn deposition? If you think you know that he was "all set to testify" to the opposite of his sworn deposition, I wonder how you think you know that.

                Election protection: there's an app for that!
                Better Know Your Voting System with the Verifier!

                by HudsonValleyMark on Fri Oct 19, 2012 at 03:51:37 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  As every election or post-election fraud is (6+ / 0-)

                  suspected or brought up you demand proof of malfeasance before you'd support an investigation which is exactly backwards since the proof is in the hands of the very elected officials that are suspected of that fraud. I hope you are not a scientist because your method would discover jack-shit.

                  I'd tip you but they cut off my tip box. The TSA would put Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad on the no-fly list.

                  by OHdog on Fri Oct 19, 2012 at 04:22:42 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  did you notice that you're making stuff up? (4+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Argyrios, Quicklund, dnta, Cat Whisperer
                    you demand proof of malfeasance before you'd support an investigation
                    Forgive me for pointing out that this is, not just bullshit, but familiar CT bullshit.

                    Have you ever argued with a 9/11 Truther, and the Truther says something like "Well, why did the towers collapse at free fall speed into their own footprints?", and you explain that they didn't, and maybe s/he says that Silverstein said in an interview that WTC 7 was "pulled," and you respond to that, and then s/he says, "I don't understand why in hell you oppose an investigation"?

                    What I "demand" is that people should respect the DKos norm that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. That has nothing to do with the criteria for an "investigation."

                    Election protection: there's an app for that!
                    Better Know Your Voting System with the Verifier!

                    by HudsonValleyMark on Fri Oct 19, 2012 at 04:56:01 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

            •  The late Michael Connell would like a word, (5+ / 0-)

              but who can be a speaker for the dead when purity trolls are out slaying unfortunate truths?

              Texas is Texas, you know. The second you think you got it figured out, it will switch on you. Just ask Rick Perry in 2012.

              by Patience John on Fri Oct 19, 2012 at 02:13:45 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  this is what I meant down below when I said I was (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Subterranean

              upset that after all our work hand-counting to keep it honest, ours gets put into a tainted stream with the rest.

              the tallies from each county were reported to a central tabulation computer, and they were "fixed" at that computer.  
              THERE IS NO NEED TO USE ANY COMPUTERS AT ALL. WE have telephones, blackboards and an adding machine if we really need one. But it is ALL simple addition. From town to county to state to national there is never any NEED to use a computer to add this + this + this= the total.

              And if people don't simply add correctly, write it down correctly and send it up the chain correctly, there should be eyes like those of Mr. True paying attention. That's what I do. If you scroll halfway down the link page you can see the tiny handwritten note he brought home, just like we have always been invited to do, and people change the subject and say 'well Ron Paul won that anyway," but I say- just look at what the difference between 2 and 22 can do...If that's not enough to sway you, remember, wiki refers to it as an "error," but it was life-changing for our country: THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A NEGATIVE VOTE. You CANNOT "un-vote"!
          •  Central locations always use computers. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Subterranean, JVolvo

            If you think no electronic means of communication were used to tally votes at any point in Ohio in 2004, you are the one verging on CP.

            Texas is Texas, you know. The second you think you got it figured out, it will switch on you. Just ask Rick Perry in 2012.

            by Patience John on Fri Oct 19, 2012 at 02:15:28 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  that isn't even wrong (2+ / 0-)

              WTF does it mean to use "electronic means of communication" to "tally votes"?

              If I were a conspiracist, I would conjecture that comments like this one are planted by voting system vendors to condition us to facepalm every time voting security threats are mentioned. "Weapons of mass distraction" and all that.

              Election protection: there's an app for that!
              Better Know Your Voting System with the Verifier!

              by HudsonValleyMark on Fri Oct 19, 2012 at 03:55:46 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Mark, have you read the Princeton study? (0+ / 0-)

                Which says that Diebold machines were VERY EASY TO FLIP VOTES at the time of the '04 election?  

                The NYT: Nov. 6, 2004: http://www.nytimes.com/...

                An electronic voting machine in hotly contested Ohio added 3,893 votes to President Bush's tally in a suburban Columbus precinct, even though there are just 800 voters there.
                I don't know why you and anastasia are so rabid about his subject; voting machines have been proven time and again to be extremely vulnerable to manipulation.  This is real cause for concern, especially since Mitt, Ann, and Tagg Romney invested in voting machines as early as last year--hello?

                Republicans...What a nice club...of liars, cheaters, adulterers, exaggerators, hypocrites and ignoramuses. Der Spiegel -6.62, -6.92

                by CanyonWren on Fri Oct 19, 2012 at 08:37:34 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  there go the goalposts AGAIN (0+ / 0-)

                  I'm one of perhaps a handful of Kossacks whose every post draws attention to problems with the voting machines. I really do not understand how anyone who pays attention can misconstrue or misrepresent me as an apologist for the voting machines. That being the case, what is your point?

                  Your first link doesn't lead to the Princeton report. As anastasia p has pointed out many times, Ohio didn't vote on Diebold machines in 2004. Of course, if people think that that election was stolen in the SmarTech server in Tennessee, then that is irrelevant -- but then, what are we talking about?

                  Again, what point do you think you're making with the anecdote about the 3,893 votes? For instance, do you suppose that someone was trying to steal votes there -- but, luckily for us, went about it in an absolutely moronic way?

                  Your final link asks a question and cites several other sources. You're taking us farther and farther from discussing known facts. What is the point of that? What is the point of calling other posters "rabid" instead of addressing anything they've said?

                  Election protection: there's an app for that!
                  Better Know Your Voting System with the Verifier!

                  by HudsonValleyMark on Sat Oct 20, 2012 at 08:03:12 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Roughly 75,000 Diebold machines in 35 Ohio (0+ / 0-)

                    counties were used in the '04 election.  

                    Apologies for the incorrect Princeton link: http://www.princeton.edu/...

                    Republicans...What a nice club...of liars, cheaters, adulterers, exaggerators, hypocrites and ignoramuses. Der Spiegel -6.62, -6.92

                    by CanyonWren on Sun Oct 21, 2012 at 03:34:29 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  nope, that's incorrect (0+ / 0-)

                      As of early 2004, 35 counties had chosen to adopt Diebold machines for HAVA compliance -- but those machines weren't rolled out until after the 2004 election. In the election, two counties used Diebold optical scanners. (For instance, see pp. 8-9 of this.)

                      As for the 75,000 machine figure, that was so wild that I had to go looking for it:

                      In Ohio, more than 35 counties used Diebold machines and nationwide, according to the company’s Web site “over 75,000 Diebold electronic voting stations are being used.”

                      http://www.inthesetimes.com/...

                      The first part of the quotation is inaccurate, as I noted and documented. As for the 75,000 part, I'll leave you to figure out what you did wrong there.

                      Election protection: there's an app for that! -- and a toll-free hotline: 866-OUR-VOTE
                      Better Know Your Voting System with the Verifier!

                      by HudsonValleyMark on Sun Oct 21, 2012 at 04:59:44 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

          •  I have no idea what TUs are supposed to do (5+ / 0-)

            If I started HRing for non-factual CT, I could use a lot of HRs. Unfortunately, many people are marinating in non-factual facts without realizing it. I try various intervention methods depending on their tone and, perhaps, my mood.

            I'm not going to join your HR, basically because I don't see an established community moderation norm here. But it makes sense to me. Since non-factual CT in diaries is a bannable offense, non-factual CT in comments must at least be HRable. To have at least one or two TUs hide-rate HRable content -- no matter how many people have uprated it -- seems like a good thing. At least it runs some red up the flagpole.

            So much for that meta. DKos would be a better place if more people read your comments and actually thought about them before posting on these topics. Thank you for wading in, once again. If it were up to me, you'd be a six-bar TU.

            Election protection: there's an app for that!
            Better Know Your Voting System with the Verifier!

            by HudsonValleyMark on Fri Oct 19, 2012 at 03:43:25 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Bravo! (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              dnta

              There are thousands of DKos usernames. Out of these there are but a few score I recognize well enough to think I have some sense of the person behind the moniker. Yours is one I hold in the highest respect.

              unfortunately, DKos features a score of CT-spreaders for everyHVM. These CTs diaries are a drag on progress.

              And DKos really can no longer make any non-ironic claims about the "reality-based community".

              •  *blush* (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Quicklund

                I very much appreciate your compliment.

                And DKos really can no longer make any non-ironic claims about the "reality-based community".
                Well, a lot of us stand with anastasia p, non-ironically.

                It takes a leap of faith or a suspension of disbelief to think of DKos as a community. But here we are.

                Election protection: there's an app for that!
                Better Know Your Voting System with the Verifier!

                by HudsonValleyMark on Fri Oct 19, 2012 at 09:08:02 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  True (0+ / 0-)

                  The 'reality based community' line was always, I suspect, a conceit we liked telling to ourselves.

                  Thisis a long shotm but you do not happen to know a man named Lief who wanders to and from Canada occasionally?

                  •  I prefer to think of it as aspirational (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Quicklund

                    It surely troubles me that some people seem to think that this diary is a great way to bring attention to Republican dirty tricks regardless of its factual accuracy.

                    I had a half-waking dream last night in which I HRed a diary called "The Theater Is On Fire!" and several Kossacks slammed me for trying to distract attention from building safety concerns.

                    But I think most Kossacks do want the site to be at least approximately reality-based. The trouble is that there's a whole subculture devoted to alternate realities, and people with a certain kind of exposure to that subculture just don't know how far down the rabbit hole they've gone. I see it over and over in the expressions of shock and outrage when anyone here tries to pin them down on a testable claim.

                    Sorry, I'm not aware of a Lief in my life.

                    Election protection: there's an app for that!
                    Better Know Your Voting System with the Verifier!

                    by HudsonValleyMark on Sat Oct 20, 2012 at 07:21:08 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I think you are right about the asperations (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      HudsonValleyMark

                      But when I see diaries like these and the conscious rejections of inconvenient truths, I am reminded that people around the world are more alike than they are different. That includes Dems and Reps. Everyone is liable to seize upon the easy answer. IMO, that is the underlying attraction to most CTs.

                      Despite that, you'd think that when an OH poll worker with years of experience documents that 2 of 88 counties uses a certain device, that small fact would be acknowledged. Oh well.

                      Thanks for the response on Lief. That's my brother. He lived/lives in the Hudson Valley and he has a well-informed progressive friend named Mark. It was a long shot but it was something I've wondered about for a few months. ;)

                      •  Febble and I talk about this from time to time (0+ / 0-)

                        Definitely, people are more alike than they are different.

                        It seems that people promote and adhere to CTs for a variety of reasons, including sheer dumb luck. The answers are "easy" in a sense, but Occam's Razor is pretty easy too. I do take your point.

                        I'll be on the lookout for a well-informed progressive namesake. ;)

                        Election protection: there's an app for that!
                        Better Know Your Voting System with the Verifier!

                        by HudsonValleyMark on Sat Oct 20, 2012 at 10:42:55 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

          •  It is arrogant (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Check077, Subterranean, JVolvo

            to HR someone because you don't agree with thir post.

            Usually, you are more balanced than this Anastasia.  I Rec him up just because of your HR.

            •  it's an HR for CT, not for disagreement (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Argyrios, Quicklund, Cat Whisperer

              Maybe at some point more TUs will know the difference.

              Election protection: there's an app for that!
              Better Know Your Voting System with the Verifier!

              by HudsonValleyMark on Fri Oct 19, 2012 at 04:15:47 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  CT is (5+ / 0-)

                in the eye of the beholder.  Perhaps some of us already know the difference.

                Hiding arguments does not resolve them.

                •  no worries there (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Quicklund

                  There is no prospect that that comment will be hidden. But TUs should exercise their best judgment, not just throw up their hands.

                  Election protection: there's an app for that!
                  Better Know Your Voting System with the Verifier!

                  by HudsonValleyMark on Fri Oct 19, 2012 at 06:35:03 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Hiding arguments does not resolve them. (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  HudsonValleyMark, Quicklund

                  I agree (I never hide rate!)

                  But it does get tedious when previously rebutted claims (what anti creationists call PRATTs - Previously Rebutted A Thousand Times) get endlessly recycled, and when some of us groan "CT" as a shorthand substitute, we are assumed to be trying to silence the argument, as opposed to simply too weary to try to engage the argument Yet Again.

                  I honestly did wonder for a while in 2004 whether maybe there had been result-turning electronic vote theft. that Kerry had seemed to be surging a bit in the last few days, that there had been huge queues to vote in urban Ohio (suggesting a fantastic Kerry turnout), and the early exit polls in Kerry's favour all made me go WTF?  And the fact that electronic vote theft seemed maybe technically possible, plus the fact that I didn't trust Karl Rove an inch, and that I thought Bush was unelectable, did make me very suspicious.

                  Especially after 2000.

                  But it soon became very clear (from actual evidence, from multiple sources) that the exit poll discrepancy was far more likely to reflect a poll problem than a vote problem.  

                  So if electronic vote theft did occur (and it may have done) we have absolutely no basis for quantifying it by reference to the exit polls.

                  Which means we have no basis for thinking that the election was electronically stolen (though votes may have been).

                •  "CT is in the eye of the beholder" (0+ / 0-)

                  Not in the eyes of facts and logic it isn't.

          •  I use my HRs judiciously (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Quicklund, Cat Whisperer

            But this warranted one.

            The author asked the question:

            OOps..Oh well...am I being too CT here?
            Unequivocally, yes.

            I do not feel obligated to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use -- Galileo Galilei

            by ccyd on Fri Oct 19, 2012 at 04:13:41 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  "Vitrually no e-voting machines in Ohio" '04?? (0+ / 0-)

            I don't know where you are getting your facts, anastasia, but they are wrong.

            Republicans...What a nice club...of liars, cheaters, adulterers, exaggerators, hypocrites and ignoramuses. Der Spiegel -6.62, -6.92

            by CanyonWren on Fri Oct 19, 2012 at 08:26:38 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  If CT is still unwelcome here (4+ / 0-)

          this comment should be hidden, for being an embarrassing lefty version equivalent to "Acorn stole the election for Obama."

        •  Bush won by 140,000 votes (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          HudsonValleyMark, Quicklund

          I wanted Kerry to win, too.  I thought that Blackwell's distribution of voting machines was shameful.  But that doesn't account for 140,000 votes.

          I do not feel obligated to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use -- Galileo Galilei

          by ccyd on Fri Oct 19, 2012 at 04:09:34 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Yeah, I agree... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Crabby Abbey

          Who can say that they code program the machines to print out to the customer one thing and print out to the quality assurance "checkers" something entirely opposing the voter's intentions.

          However, I can understand why one wouldn't want to get worked up about? However, we can set a plan in action without worrying about too much since the time has probably passed to keep the machines from being used.

          •  Who could possibly crack such a cunning plan? (0+ / 0-)

            I mean, besides every customer who bought such a machine and gave it a test run before deploying it.

            Oh, I forgot, they are all "in on it too." Shhh!

            •  They Don't Test Them (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              JVolvo, Check077

              The customers who buy the machines don't test them. The customer in this case is the Republican Secretary of State, who works for the Republican campaign.

              "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

              by DocGonzo on Fri Oct 19, 2012 at 08:57:18 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Ahh. So it is not the counties that buys machines? (0+ / 0-)

                Because I think those machines are operated at the County level.

                And it is fascinating that you know what all these various people do when they unpack their new expensive investments.

                "Do they work?"

                "Who gives a shit?"

                Yes, I find this explanation very realistic.

                •  And You Know? (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  TheDuckManCometh

                  Newsflash: Electronic Voting Machines Not Tested Thoroughly

                  from the now-what dept

                  If you ever wondered how pathetic e-voting technology gets approved for use despite having fatal design flaws, wonder no longer.  It appears that the laboratory tasked with testing most of the nation's electronic voting systems has, shockingly, done a miserable job at it  -- resulting in Uncle Sam barring them from further machine approval until they clean up their act.  Not only was Ciber Inc. not following proper quality-control procedures, the company couldn't actually document that it was conducting all the required tests.  Worse, the company was banned from further testing last summer, but we're only finding out about their incompetence after the elections.  The government seems to have deemed the lab dysfunctional and stopped there -- raising questions about what exactly the government plans to do about machines already approved and in circulation.  There's a continuing theme of Uncle Sam realizing these systems suck years after we've begun using them to elect politicians, but then stalling in bureaucratic gridlock any time there's an effort to actually do something about it.  But hey, don't worry -- take solace in the fact it could be worse.

                  "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

                  by DocGonzo on Fri Oct 19, 2012 at 12:22:57 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Quicklund - where's your apology? (0+ / 0-)

                    "I believe more women should carry guns. I believe armed women will make the world a better place. Women need to come to think of themselves not as victims but as dangerous." Anna Pigeon

                    by glorificus on Fri Oct 19, 2012 at 01:46:59 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Are you stalking me? (0+ / 0-)
                      •  No, but feel free to be scared if it makes you (0+ / 0-)

                        feel important.

                        "I believe more women should carry guns. I believe armed women will make the world a better place. Women need to come to think of themselves not as victims but as dangerous." Anna Pigeon

                        by glorificus on Sat Oct 20, 2012 at 05:54:24 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                    •  No Apology (0+ / 0-)

                      To believe at this late date that Republicans don't rig voting machines to steal elections, especially in Ohio, requires years of lying to oneself. There's no apology coming. There's no acceptance coming. There's only more denial. At this point, their superficial sanity depends on it.

                      Even Romney stealing into office on machines like this won't open their eyes. If not already, then never.

                      But since others read these threads, I post the truth.

                      "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

                      by DocGonzo on Sun Oct 21, 2012 at 03:29:25 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                  •  That article does not describe end-users (0+ / 0-)

                    It describes a central QC lab.

                    How you think you know what happens in scores of different locations is a mystery?

                    •  You Lose (0+ / 0-)

                      It describes (at least some of) the testing they don't do.

                      You don't get to move the goal posts. If you insist on your ignorance bubble, that's your problem. Just stop inflicting it on anyone else.

                      "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

                      by DocGonzo on Sun Oct 21, 2012 at 03:27:42 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

        •  So how come nobody noticed (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Quicklund

          that the precinct totals were wildly out of whack with the county tabulations?

          And why did the "perps" not worry that somebody might?

      •  You are so wrong. You really are. See my (18+ / 0-)

        comment above. May I also suggest John Conyers and the Congressional Black Congresses excellent report and book re: the 2004 election in Ohio.

        You might also consult the Brad Blog and the many, many other sources out there that prove that votes can easily be flipped in the central tabulation area.

        Best not to deride the diarist unless you are very well educated on the topic.

        They also use voter suppression like the voter ID laws and trickery of all types. The combination of all of these things and a few flipped votes get the job done for them time after time, yet people like yourself are in deep denial for some reason.  

        "Southern nights have you ever felt a southern night?" Allen Toussaint ~~Remember the Gulf of Mexico~~

        by rubyr on Thu Oct 18, 2012 at 10:01:11 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  If you are HR'ing (5+ / 0-)

        people for their 'facts' being wrong, you deserve the same.

        It has been demonstrated time and time again that voting machines have been hacked/manipulated.

        A top level Republican IT consultant who was set to testify in a case alleging GOP election tampering in Ohio died in a plane crash late Friday night.

        Michael Connell -- founder of Ohio-based New Media Communications, which created campaign Web sites for George W. Bush and John McCain -- died instantly after his single-prop, private aircraft smashed into a vacant home in suburban Lake Township, Ohio.

        http://rawstory.com/...

        Its a hell of a lot easier to change the vote than to supress it.

        You are just plain wrong on the issue and your HR's are unwarranted and abusive.

        •  your quotation doesn't support your assertion (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Quicklund

          Did you notice?

          How unalloyed does CT have to be before it can be HRed?

          Election protection: there's an app for that!
          Better Know Your Voting System with the Verifier!

          by HudsonValleyMark on Fri Oct 19, 2012 at 04:07:54 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Anyone who knows the story of Michael Connell (5+ / 0-)

            knows that his story supports the assertion that something shady happened in the 2004 elections in Ohio.

            Multiple other sources, documentaries (including HBO's “Hacking Democracy ), blogs, newspaper articles can verify the hackability and overall unreliability of electronic voting machines.

            A quick google search can prove this, so I do not see how that is a 'CT'.  It certainly doesnt deserve a HR, and does deserve public attention.

            •In March, malfunctioning software sent votes to the wrong candidate and the wrong municipal election in Palm Beach County, Fla. The mistake was corrected only after a court-approved hand count.

            •In an election in Pennington County, S.D., in 2009, a software glitch almost doubled the number of votes actually cast.

            •In Carteret County, N.C., 4,530 electronic votes simply disappeared in 2004 when the voting machine ran out of storage capacity and no one noticed until too late.

            •In 2010, a University of Michigan assistant professor of computer science and three assistants hacked into Washington, D.C.'s online voting system during a test. They manipulated it undetected, even programming it to play the Michigan fight song. While inside, the hackers blocked probes from Iran, India and China. Washington officials canceled plans for online voting.

            •  empty appeal to authority (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Quicklund

              I know the story of Michael Connell. If you're prepared to argue facts, step right up, but don't assume my ignorance.

              Multiple other sources, documentaries (including HBO's “Hacking Democracy ), blogs, newspaper articles can verify the hackability and overall unreliability of electronic voting machines.
              You claimed, "It has been demonstrated time and time again that voting machines have been hacked/manipulated." Evidence of hackability doesn't support that claim, any more than my mortality proves that I am dead.

              Perhaps you meant that voting machines have been hacked in security testing, if not necessarily in live elections. That's true, and part of the point of my sig. But then you could be citing academic studies, not "documentaries..., blogs, newspaper articles" -- and certainly not Connell's death in a plane crash.

              None of your block quotations here supports your claim, either. If the internet voting had gone beyond the pilot phase, that probably would have provided some real evidence of hacking in an election, but that isn't likely to be what you meant by "voting machines."

              Election protection: there's an app for that!
              Better Know Your Voting System with the Verifier!

              by HudsonValleyMark on Fri Oct 19, 2012 at 05:28:24 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Youre right (3+ / 0-)

                that I meant in security tests, not live elections. We dont have proof of that because when it is discussed people cry CT. Which is my whole intent of posting (if I did not do a better job of sourcing or being better with words to phrase my side) is that this post does not deserve a HR and that the commentor was being abusive. I dont have to agree with the entire premise of the post but I defend their right to discuss it at DKOS.

                •  an interesting assertion (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Quicklund
                  We dont have proof of that because when it is discussed people cry CT.
                  Umm, no. Some people claim to have proof (or strong evidence) of it, and it turns out they don't; that's a major reason why other people cry CT. (Not that every cry of CT is justified, or well supported even if it is justified.)

                  If you really mean to say that we would have proof of hacking in actual elections if only people would stop "cry[ing] CT," I think that is pretty telling but not very plausible. Maybe you mean something else.

                  It's always OK to disagree about HRs. But I think that HR is eminently defensible. This isn't a one-off: we've been discussing most of these claims for years.

                  Election protection: there's an app for that!
                  Better Know Your Voting System with the Verifier!

                  by HudsonValleyMark on Fri Oct 19, 2012 at 06:45:43 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Basically I am just saying (4+ / 0-)

                    sometimes legitimate conversations that could lead to more substantive conversation/investigations are shot down on DKOS under the CT-excuse. If people dont like the discussion just leave the diary and move on, let the Free-Market-Diary-System take care of itself, no reason to -1 a person.

                    Electronic Voting Machine issues are no more CT than Harry Reid saying Mitt Romney paid no taxes, and that gets Front Paged.

                    So I may not have done the best job of wording myself (we all can't be the Secretary of Explaining Stuff). In all likelyhood we are in much more agreement than it would seem, and I appreciate the discussion.  

                    •  Save your breath. HVM is an "expert" on this and (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      LieparDestin

                      in moving the goalposts.  He learned it from Dana H.

                      The GOP says you have to have an ID to vote, but $ Millionaire donors should remain anonymous?

                      by JVolvo on Fri Oct 19, 2012 at 10:01:43 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  I don't know of anyone (0+ / 0-)

                        quite so obsessed with keeping goal posts in one place than HVM, despite the vigorous attempts of people who insist that vote theft was the cause of Kerry's defeat to move them.

                        What is the evidence that convinces you that it was?

                        •  I'll play this like HVM: That's preposterous. (0+ / 0-)

                          You're a tin-foil head.  Show me your proof.  There's no such thing as voting machine hack-ability.  lalalalalala

                          The GOP says you have to have an ID to vote, but $ Millionaire donors should remain anonymous?

                          by JVolvo on Fri Oct 19, 2012 at 03:08:44 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                    •  I'm not confident of your premise (0+ / 0-)

                      I probably spend as much time as anyone on Daily Kos challenging people whose comments seem to dismiss "legitimate conversations" on these topics. I suppose it must be true that "sometimes" such discussions are "shot down... under the CT-excuse," but I think it is very unusual -- much more so than the complaint.

                      If people dont like the discussion just leave the diary and move on
                      Wow. Think about what you wrote there.

                      So, if anastasia p believes that a claim is factually wrong and harmful, and is prepared to explain why, she should "just leave the diary and move on." And that is your prescription to promote "legitimate conversations." Yup, that should work!

                      I think the HRs actually are a red herring here. In my experience, people who believe that vote-counting fraud is running rampant also believe that anyone who has the temerity to disagree -- and to know why -- should just leave and move on.

                      That is the crux. And I think that is, in large measure, what triggers the attributions of CT. People who are willing to weigh their claims against evidence are not widely derided for CT. People who act as if that is an outrage, are.

                      I'm not sure what to do with the Harry Reid analogy. But the topic at hand isn't "Electronic Voting Machine issues." I recced a diary on basically the same topic back on Tuesday. This diary is marginal, but like many marginal diaries and even some excellent ones, it has inspired some pretty bad comments.

                      Election protection: there's an app for that!
                      Better Know Your Voting System with the Verifier!

                      by HudsonValleyMark on Fri Oct 19, 2012 at 11:10:15 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  No she can comment all she wants (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        glorificus, TheDuckManCometh

                        But to HR and try to hide someone elses comment was wrong. If she disagrees with the premise then fine debate away, but if its so upsetting that she wants to attack MOJO then its probably best she move on to something that meets her 'fact meter'.

                        And now you are the one assigning motives or beliefs that I do not have. My comment was that: Machines are in fact hackable and there is documented evidence, And the HR was wrong. O well theres better things to do at DKOS than argue in circles. Maybe we can find a point of agreement on something in a future diary :). Happy Kos'ing to you.  

      •  anastasia, much of what you say is true, (5+ / 0-)

        but forgive me for being JUST A BIT QUEASY because I can state unequivocally, as a Floridian, that the Governor and the Secretary of State here, in 2000, rigged the vote for George W. Bush.

        If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. John F. Kennedy ( inaugural address, January 20, 1961)

        by Outraged Mom on Fri Oct 19, 2012 at 05:17:55 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  So, my Saviour's midde name is Frank? (0+ / 0-)

        Or Fred?

        Who knew?

        Aldus Shrugged : The Antidote to Ayn Rand. ***Buy ALDUS SHRUGGED on amazon, and ALL royalties will be donated directly to Democrats in contentious Downballot races. @floydbluealdus1

        by Floyd Blue on Fri Oct 19, 2012 at 05:29:26 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  They'll shave the margin by any means (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        TheDuckManCometh

        Karl Rove has not retired, he's multiplying that nest egg this cycle.

      •  How Does It Damage? (4+ / 0-)

        How does addressing the risk of Republicans stealing the Ohio vote (again) somehow "damage our chances of carrying Ohio"?

        You are not only ignoring the history of rigged voting machines stealing elections since at least 2000. You are also ignoring the history of Republican secretaries of state, including Ken Blackwell in Ohio, gaming the system they design and oversee to steal their elections.

        The Democratic Party, both the org and its members, as well as ethical and interested outsiders, are plentiful and capable enough of dealing with multiple threats to winning these elections. We'd better be, because there are many threats from the Republicans and their tribe of cheaters and stealers. In the past, ignoring voting security has cost several elections, and largely robbed us of our democracy.

        "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

        by DocGonzo on Fri Oct 19, 2012 at 08:50:11 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I disagree. I read more about voting (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        TheDuckManCometh

        irregularities in Ohio and Florida than anywhere else, and I know Florida is crooked.

        "I believe more women should carry guns. I believe armed women will make the world a better place. Women need to come to think of themselves not as victims but as dangerous." Anna Pigeon

        by glorificus on Fri Oct 19, 2012 at 01:31:16 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  asdf (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        TheDuckManCometh
        My concern is that by being bedazzled by these elaborate vote-flipping theories, which are pretty unlikely
        They have happened. Things which have happened cannot be declared to be unlikely.

        That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

        by enhydra lutris on Fri Oct 19, 2012 at 04:14:07 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Absolutely not Concern Troll... (14+ / 0-)

      ...in fact I take offense at that phrase at this stage in the race.

      Ohio is the Kingmaker state.  And Obama has been looking good there since Day 1.

      If Mitt has to cheat to get what he wants, that's what he'll do.

      Every Republican I know is acting very smug right now...which flips me out.  It doesn't mean anything, but...

      ...this seems like a potential for disaster.  

      "When a man tells you that he got rich through hard work, ask him: 'Whose?' Don Marquis

      by hopesprings on Thu Oct 18, 2012 at 09:41:02 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  We know Bush Co. Stole 2004 in Ohio.... (2+ / 0-)

      And Kerry did nothing but walk away.  Apparently he couldn't break the vow of Skull and Bones to catch his S & B brother Bush.

      I hope the OFA team is paying attention.

  •  I considered writing a diary about this, (11+ / 0-)

    but changed my mind.  I couldn't find a single shred of documentation in dozens of places I looked.  I suppose one could buy one of the several books to see if there's anything there, but I wouldn't bet on it.

    “I have made this letter longer than usual because I lack the time to make it shorter.” –Blaise Pascal

    by dskoe on Thu Oct 18, 2012 at 06:59:26 PM PDT

  •  I know this is serious (4+ / 0-)

    But I really really don't want to get into the conspiracy realm, here.

  •  But honestly (17+ / 0-)

    I think Husted is an absolute sack of you know what. This man has flat out tried his best to screw over the dems, it's ridiculous that the Secretary of State has control over the electronic vote count.

  •  I still say a bit CTish (8+ / 0-)

    Bain is HUGE..they have ancillary investments in a WHOLE BUNCH of companies

    No, I am not pollyanna. Yes, I'm aware of the insidious power of the corporate oligarchy

    But we can really drive ourselves crazy with this stuff.

  •  There IS one thing we can learn to do again- (22+ / 0-)

    Hand-Count the Vote. Everyone, Everywhere.

    And I resent that all of our hard work to keep it real and honest may go down the tubes with the electronic "votes" from everywhere else.
    Meanwhile, I am looking forward to seeing the individual ballots go by and getting a look at and an accurate count of what my fellow townspeople really think. No speculatin' pre-polls, no exit polls, just the actual vote, cross-tabulated to perfection.

    See ya later, at the mini-bar.

  •  if it's only cincinnati-- (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    AuroraDawn

    i'm not going to worry too much.
    and believe me, i am a worrier.

    but that area was going to go red anyway.
    [i don't actually consider them to be part of ohio, anyway.]

    if this includes neohio--[see: 2004]...

    then i am Very Worried.

  •  I used to be up on this stuff.. (10+ / 0-)

    but since the last presidential election, I lost interest. What really bothers me is that this has been going on since the "Help America Vote Act", following the butterfly ballot, provided us all with easily hacked voting machines. Most states, as of 2008, had initiated paper ballots that can be hand-counted, and some states have an automatic, random recount after each election. Russ Feingold even had a bill that would allow any state to improve their election apparatus, making the machines more secure, on the government's dime. For some reason Ohio's Secretary of State doesn't seem to take any heat for what they do every four years. The worst part, if the outcome is questionable, it will not be the responsibility of the Ohio State Government, nor the people of Ohio who elect their officials, but the Presidential candidate will be held accountable for the mess.

    •  The HAVAct was a ruse. The machines could be made (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      humphrey, DarkestHour, NoMoreLies, zett

      more secure (so my computer security expert nephew tells me) but that doesn't appear to be an interest of anyone purchasing the machines.
      I wish we would follow the Dutch's example and dump the machines for hand counted ballots. And make it mandatory to vote. Axing Citizen United would help as well.

  •  the machines did in Kerry (12+ / 0-)

    Who didn't even fight it. Ballot integrity is a key to victory, no doubt.

    •  Sigh. No they didn't. (4+ / 0-)

      There is zero credible evidence of machine tampering in the 2004 election.  Put the tinfoil down and give the conspiracies a rest.  

    •  That's flat-out untrue (9+ / 0-)

      because Ohio was not using the machines in the 2004. I don't know how many times I have to repeat this, but the number of Ohio counties using touchscreens in that election was single digits out of 88.

      What rigged the 2004 Ohio election was VOTER SUPPRESSION. And that is where they are going again while some of you guys go off on this tangent.

      There was nothing for Kerry to fight. There was no evidence the day or the week or even the month after the election that there was any way he could have closed the gap — because they (mostly) didn't change the tally — they KEPT VOTERS FROM VOTING. Kerry had virtually no chance of prevailing. All he would have done by challenging is make Bush look heroic, turn people against Democrats and destroy his own career — for nothing.

      Take the "Can't(or)" out of Congress. Support E. Wayne Powell in Va-07. http://www.ewaynepowell.com/

      by anastasia p on Thu Oct 18, 2012 at 08:44:53 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  People have forgotten those long lines in the rain (5+ / 0-)

        with insufficient machines.
        Of course, SoS Blackwell's interventions didn't help matters.

        You gotta understand why people are jumpy.
        I am a little jumpy myself. This ENR (Election Night Results?) Pilot Program is making me nervous. Why did Husted create it? Will it firm up the numbers quicker?
        I haven't seen it talked about much but I am often out of the loop.

        It wasn't just the count in 2004 that added to the suspicion of the results. There were a number of irregularities in play. I don't want to relive that nightmare.

         

        •  I sometimes wonder the long lines in the rain (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Quicklund

          got forgotten too soon, owing to competition with the much sexier "Kerry won but Rove flipped a switch and flipped it for Bush, and the exit poll proves it" nonsense.

          Sometimes I wonder whether the whole electronic vote thing was an inspired piece of deliberate misdirection masterminded by Rove to divert attention from voter suppression.

          [/CT]

      •  Yes, it was voter suppression. (0+ / 0-)

        Although I do believe some votes were "lost" and not counted, the bulk of the 2004 dirty tricks here in Ohio was the people who didn't vote because Ken Blackwell made it more difficult. That is why Kerry "lost".

        "I read this- Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand. I read every last word of this garbage, and because of this piece of $#!^ I'm never reading again!"-Officer Barbrady

        by Broke And Unemployed on Fri Oct 19, 2012 at 10:29:39 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Who's willing to stick their neck out for Rmoney? (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Inland, Steve Canella, eztempo, Quicklund

    The problem with all of the concern over voting fraud is that any problems exposed can easily be pinned on individuals.  

    Who is willing to put their neck on the chopping block and risk years in prison for obvious tampering?  

    What can you offer to the millionaires who own these machines?  More millions?  Is that worth more than their freedom?  And yes, voting machines are very lucrative- you have big, expensive pieces of equipment that a government agency buys in bulk.  Sounds profitable to me.  They may be Rmoney's buddies, but there's a limit to what you do for a friend.  Would you drive to a friend's house at 4 am to help with a plumbing emergency?  sure.  But if your friend asks you to rob a bank with him, I doubt you'd be eager to help.  

    What can you offer Husted?  Money?  He has money, and more importantly he has political ambitions that will be forever ruined by a scandal like this, so he won't risk it.   If Husted could change the voting rules, that's one thing.  Direct tampering is beyond the pale.  He isn't sticking hsi neck that far out.

    I'm not suggesting we ignore this.  Spreading the knowledge far and wide is enough to ensure that anything funny will be dropped, steaming, in the laps of these people.  It's much more worth it to them to be honest than not.  

  •  Duh......conflict of interest anyone?!? Unethical. (8+ / 0-)

    And that's just for starters.

    "extreme concentration of income is incompatible with real democracy.... the truth is that the whole nature of our society is at stake." Paul Krugman

    by Gorette on Thu Oct 18, 2012 at 08:25:09 PM PDT

  •  hey, Obama is the president.... (0+ / 0-)

    and on election day..... he has the authority to just declare that the voting machines are now property for the federal courts..... and the president can send the federal marshalls into Ohio......

    Too important not to consider democracy here......

  •  This is why a close election is a Romney victory (11+ / 0-)

    I'm convinced Obama cannot win OH with a 2-3 point margin.  He must win by a margin large enough to raise suspicions if the GOP perpetrates election fraud.

    They did it in 2004, they'll do it again given the chance.  People need to pull their heads out of their asses and vote for Obama.  Especially all these women who after the first debate decided to go with the dominant alpha male.  If Obama pwns Romney again in the third debate, maybe some of these swing voters will get a clue, but I fear the cake is baked.  We're fucked unless we GOTV like our very lives depend upon it.

    "When I was an alien, cultures weren't opinions" ~ Kurt Cobain, Territorial Pissings

    by Subterranean on Thu Oct 18, 2012 at 08:51:46 PM PDT

  •   I just learned something else (6+ / 0-)

    Only TWO (count 'em — 2) counties in all of Ohio use Hart machines: Hamilton and Williams. Hamilton is fairly significant. It produced somewhat over 400,000 votes in the 2008 presidential election. I'm not going to lie awake nights worrying about Williams (even though there seems to be a storm every time I go through there). It produced less than 20,000 votes.

    The other 86 counties use something else.

    Take the "Can't(or)" out of Congress. Support E. Wayne Powell in Va-07. http://www.ewaynepowell.com/

    by anastasia p on Thu Oct 18, 2012 at 08:59:37 PM PDT

  •  Do those machines provide a paper (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Broke And Unemployed

    Trail? If not, could wake the ghosts of 2004.

    •  Again, there were almost no DRE machines (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Citizenpower, Quicklund

      in use in Ohio in 2004. No ghosts to awaken unless you want to haul the old punch cards from the dump. Virtually every county voted on paper in 2004.

      Take the "Can't(or)" out of Congress. Support E. Wayne Powell in Va-07. http://www.ewaynepowell.com/

      by anastasia p on Thu Oct 18, 2012 at 09:24:24 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Thank you (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        anastasia p, Quicklund

        Thank you for being there and thank you for sticking with us and explaining it patiently and repeatedly. I get it thanks to you and I feel way better. I'm going to send OFA some more cash and make some GOTV calls. To paraphrase the prez. "we got this."

      •  They didn't. I would like to see some (0+ / 0-)

        substantiation for your claim. Oddly, you are the only person that I have ever seen make this claim. You act as if it is an either/or. It's not. They use everything at their disposal.
        Stop your hissy fit and put some data out here that proves what you say because I think you are wrong. Every county in Ohio did not vote on paper in 2004.

        "Southern nights have you ever felt a southern night?" Allen Toussaint ~~Remember the Gulf of Mexico~~

        by rubyr on Thu Oct 18, 2012 at 10:22:08 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  She said virtually every county (8+ / 0-)

          I take it you didn't vote in Ohio in 2004.

          I did. In Cuyahoga County. One of 68 counties out 88 that used the punch card system. This also included Hamilton (Cincinnati), Montgomery (Dayton) and Summit  (Akron) along with the rest of many smaller counties.

          DRE was used in a handful of counties - the largest being Franklin (Columbus).  Though absentee and provisional ballot voting in Franklin County was done on punch cards.

          Optical Scan ballots made up the other handfuls of counties.  Precinct level optical scan counters were in most of the counties. Central counting optical scanners were only in three counties.

          The biggest problem in 2004 was the really long lines and times to vote. Are ballots are lengthy in Ohio because we vote on everything. Money for the library, referendum. Money for hospitals, referendum. Schools, same thing. Arts, same thing. Taxes of almost any kind, same thing. Sunday sales of alcohol for a bar, we vote. Sales of beer at a convenience store, we vote. Create a new position in the city like, say, recreation director, we vote on whether that can be done. Have a subdivision of say, 40+ homes that are now going to be re-zoned? Well for each individual property and we get a ballot choice of yes or no. Of course there are city level, county level, and state level ballot issues.

          The ballot in my precinct in 2004 was nearly 10 pages.
          The ballot this year is 6 pages but with the optical scan paper ballots we are talking about 14 inches long and 3 columns per page.

          For 2012 the situation is a bit different. Depending on the county there will be DRE or Optical Scan.

          45 counties will be using the Accuvote TSX DRE machines. Those machines print your selections for your review so you can check you choices before casting your ballot. Montgomery County (Dayton) would be the largest of the counties using this system.

          In 2006, at our precinct in Cuyahoga County we used this machine for voting. They worked okay but I prefer the paper and optical scanners we use now.

          29 counties will be using the ES&S 100 Optical Scanners. Here voters cast their ballots on paper and run them through the scanner / counter. These are precinct level counters so the count totals aren't sent anywhere to be counted. Summit County (Akron) is probably the largest of these counties.

          8 counties will be using the ES&S iVotronic DRE system. These are the DREs that get the most attention as to being hackable, etc.  Franklin (Columbus) is the largest county using these.

          2 counties use the ES&S DS200, Cuyahoga (Cleveland) and Mahoning (Youngstown). These are paper ballot systems with precinct counting systems.

          2 counties - Hamilton (Cincinnati) and Williams use the Hart eScan Optical Scan systems. This is a paper ballot and optical scan system with precinct counting.

          2 counties - Scioto and Van Wert use the Accuvote Optical Scan system. This system is a paper ballot system but a central counting system (from what I understand of it).

          Though keep in mind that the Ohio Revised Code (our law) was changed by 2008 that that required emergency paper ballots to be used at DRE locations if ANY of the machines - even if just one of them - malfunctions. Paper ballots are also to be deployed if there are excessive waiting times to vote i.e. long lines. Further, a voter can request a paper ballot in DRE locations rather than use the DRE machines. As I understand it those votes are scanned and counted without additional interference.

          You can always check out the Ohio SOS site to see what counties use what machines and naturally can do research on those machines.

          Ohio voting equipment county map

          The biggest problem we will be facing here in Ohio is voter suppression. It was what the early voting fiasco was all about - to cause more voters to have to vote on election day or, better for the Republicans, not at all. The billboards that went up all over minority areas in Cleveland are all about suppressing the vote.

          As it is the Constitution (Goode) and Libertarian (Johnson) parties are probably going to siphon off more than 1% of the vote from Romney. In the 2010 elections in Ohio the Constitution and Libertarian parties got more votes than they probably ever had in one election and that was despite all the Tea Party morons running.

          •  I never said that the voter theft was solely (0+ / 0-)

            from vote flipping. However, vote flipping is a component of it.

            I appreciate your thorough list of the voting landscape in Ohio.

            She did say virtually every county and you firmly disproved that statement in your defense of her.

            No, I did not vote in Ohio in 2004. However, i did research the topic thoroughly.

            I don't really care if people agree with me but what your pal is spewing all over this diary is plain wrong.  

            "Southern nights have you ever felt a southern night?" Allen Toussaint ~~Remember the Gulf of Mexico~~

            by rubyr on Fri Oct 19, 2012 at 08:23:13 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Sorry (0+ / 0-)

              But the truth is, in the context of this diary, the only risk associated with the machine affects only two counties and even if every single last vote was flipped - which would be rather obvious - you wouldn't change more than enough votes to offset the Constitution and Libertarian votes that will come in against Romney in this state.

              The way you have been carrying on in this diary suggests that you somehow don't think that the Obama team wouldn't challenge vote counts or would be oblivious to vote counts that are out of whack. I am sure that they already have some sort of estimates of what they think they should get out of each and every precinct.

              What exactly would you want to be done here? There will be Democratic observers at all of the polling locations that have those machines. There will be observers for the counts. I am trying to figure out what exactly you want to occur here. There is no court that will step in and force Ohio to change the machines and voting in those two counties 3 weeks out from the election.

              •  I want people to go out and work and not (0+ / 0-)

                to take anything for granted. It seems that what you want is to put me in what you think is my place. Good try.

                It is the aggregate of the tricks they pull that changes the vote. Vote flipping is part of that aggregate. Carry on.

                "Southern nights have you ever felt a southern night?" Allen Toussaint ~~Remember the Gulf of Mexico~~

                by rubyr on Sat Oct 20, 2012 at 06:34:38 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

      •  Some of those punch cards might have made it to (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        bluedust

        dump before they were suppose to. I might be confusing my Black Box stories.
        Husted's voter suppression efforts are so aggressive its easy to imagine anything.

  •  This is news? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    hopesprings

    While everyone is continuing to be flabbergasted by blatant GOP election fraud, including suppression tactics that are very old news now, the continued deliberate ignorance about what goes on behind the curtain in the last decade with our election systems co-opted by proprietary, trade secret protected, software owned by partisans--that for all practical purposes is inauditable--is the real inconvenient truth.  

    There have been how many proven hacks of the system now?

    There have been how many articles written on the topic?

    Yet nothing has been done.

    And to make matters worse, the Democrats are pushing absentee voting, which is the easiest way to steal a vote with the "qualification" process each ballot must go through.

    Exasperating!

    Separation of Church and State AND Corporation

    by Einsteinia on Thu Oct 18, 2012 at 09:29:15 PM PDT

    •  There have been no proven hacks (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Steve Canella, Quicklund, calebfaux

      Ohio was not using electronic machines in 2004, and most of us are not using them now.

      Absentee voting is very safe. I have no idea what "qualification" process you could be talking about. There are some issues with potential challenges to ballots, but there is no such process I am aware of. I am working in the absentee ballot area. I will ask one of my supervisors tomorrow, but I can't imagine what you are referring to. If you could describe exactly what you mean, I'd be grateful.

      Actually one of the issues the GOP has is that less ID is needed to vote absentee so they imagine hordes of unqualified, unregistered voters casting ballots. When we subscribe to the stuff described in this diary, we sound just like them.

      Take the "Can't(or)" out of Congress. Support E. Wayne Powell in Va-07. http://www.ewaynepowell.com/

      by anastasia p on Thu Oct 18, 2012 at 09:50:42 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Also, Bain's ownership of the vote tabulation, (3+ / 0-)

      in particular, is old news:

      http://www.bradblog.com/...

      I apologize that I am beyond fed up that this comes up on the eve of the election -- again!

      Separation of Church and State AND Corporation

      by Einsteinia on Thu Oct 18, 2012 at 09:52:17 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  That voting machine (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        cobaltbay

        Hart Intercivic escan are only used in Scioto and Van Wert counties. Those two counties combined have a total population of just over 100,000 people and in 2008 had only just 48,000 votes cast combined.

        •  ONLY (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Einsteinia

          48,000 votes?  Are you serious?

          •  Settle down, Jersey. It is obviously only a (0+ / 0-)

            problem if 50K or more votes are stolen.

            snark

            "I believe more women should carry guns. I believe armed women will make the world a better place. Women need to come to think of themselves not as victims but as dangerous." Anna Pigeon

            by glorificus on Fri Oct 19, 2012 at 02:14:36 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  RE: "a total population of just over 100,000" and (0+ / 0-)

          "only just 48,000 votes cast combined"

          I don't understand what's wrong with that. For comparison, Our Town has a total population hovering around 5000, but out of that we have a voter roll of 2800- just over half of the total population, matching nicely with our demographic of young families with extra people in the single young adult, and elderly categories, the rest being children. Of that voter roll of 2800, 2500+ showed up for the last big election, making that approximately half, just as 48,000 was proportional to 48,000 being somewhat less than half of your 100,000. So I don't understand what is wrong.

          What I do understand is that if you have actual numbers written down on paper, you will know if you've been hacked or not by whether the # of ballots counted matches EXACTLY with the number cast, even if not everyone fills in every blank. We tabulate and keep track of over-votes, under-votes, people who write-in Mickey Mouse- and every other thing that could go weird that a machine would not be prepared for that would need hand-counting ANYWAY!

          Meanwhile I am 100% (count 'em one hundred out of one hundred) against any machines in voting. A pencil with no eraser and a big pile of paper, and a bunch of people who can do elementary school math, is all that is necessary.

          •  I am for paper ballots (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Brian B

            And hand counting of ballots. 100 percent.

            I have no argument against that at all. In fact, I wrote a very lengthy comment on that almost 7 years ago describing how would I prefer voting and counting was handled in this country.

            Link to comment

            It was part of a larger context so you could also take the view diary link from that comment and see the larger context.

            But that isn't what this diary was about and what is going to take place in Ohio in terms of the voting systems being used. You may not like it. But we can only deal with what we have not what we want it to be.

            There is a horrible understanding of just what takes place in Ohio from outsiders that are based solely on what amounts to CT.

            Back in 2005 we had 4 ballot initiatives related to mail-in voting, no excuse absentee ballots, early voting, etc. Those were put on the ballot by various groups. All of them failed. They weren't even close. Calls from outsiders saying that it had to be rigged vote counts on those issues because polling showed people were in favor of those things.  

            However, the truth was that those ballot initiatives were so poorly written that the challenges to them and the problems they would cause would have prevented their implementation anyway. On top of that the Democratic machines in various high Democratic voter counties were on the record campaigning against them or neutral at best. Republicans were against them.

            The biggest factor that caused voters to vote against them were that they were very long and obfuscatingly obtuse to the point that the vast majority of voters stopped reading two paragraphs in - one of them took up 3 pages in the ballot alone - and voted no. But that didn't stop outsiders from CT as if all the people on DKos from Ohio are just a bunch of oblivious idiots.

            See this diary, for example.

            What really happened in the Ohio election November, 8 2005

            Or this one, concerning the same election issues:

            Ohio and voting integrity

            We were arguing back then about the electronic voting machines that were only in 8 counties as opposed to the other 80 counties in the state and "stolen" results due to those machines - and that wasn't even anything but local elections with state issues.

            This is the same thing happening with this diary and the comment thread. That the people here in Ohio on the ground or working for the BOE or actually on the BOE are just a bunch of ignorant rubes, clueless to all that is going on.

            You have to realize that if all of those votes in the two counties were stolen - which would be obvious to the Obama campaign (unless you think they are clueless too) - it won't even come close to offsetting the votes statewide going to Virgil Goode, let alone Gary Johnson.

        •  This Years Vote - Ohio 2012 (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Einsteinia, glorificus

          27,000 for Romney
          25,000 for Obama
          Brought to you by Hart Intercivic "We Know How To Manipulate Numbers"

          Breaking -  Hart Intercivic says Romney Budget adds up, no problem with the math.
          Brought to you by Hart Intercivic "We Know How To Manipulate Numbers"

          Conservatives say if you don't give the rich more money, they will lose their incentive to invest. As for the poor, they tell us they've lost all incentive because we've given them too much money. -GC

          by cobaltbay on Fri Oct 19, 2012 at 05:09:38 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  comment glitch :) (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Einsteinia

          As I think you correctly posted elsewhere, the Harts are used in Hamilton and Williams, not in Scioto and Van Wert.

          Hamilton is a big county. But most of its voters will be using hand-marked paper ballots.

          Election protection: there's an app for that!
          Better Know Your Voting System with the Verifier!

          by HudsonValleyMark on Fri Oct 19, 2012 at 07:38:12 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  This needs to be read by everyone (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    RhodaA, Broke And Unemployed

    Please, everyone, post this to Facebook, twitter and every other social media platform you use.

    Email it to everyone you know.

    If they win, this is how they'll do it.

    I'm not really FAT - it's an unfortunate childhood nickname.

    by FatPath on Thu Oct 18, 2012 at 09:44:53 PM PDT

  •  Am I the only one? (5+ / 0-)

    Who wonders why voting is not done the same way in EVERY state, district, province, etc?

    Every voting cycle brings another round of questions. What machines are being used. Who designed the machines? Who is profiting from the manufacture of these machines? Who is tabulating the count from these machines???

    I know it's a naive question but it drives me nuts every year that voting isn't the straight forward thing that it should be.  

    You find what works the most consistent and pass a F!@#*&! law that requires all states not just to "conform" to the law but to use the exact same equipment. Period.

    This kind of "stuff" is pretty important...isn't it?

    Men with religious beliefs have killed more people than any god that they have created...

    by Mislead on Thu Oct 18, 2012 at 09:45:58 PM PDT

    •  our town has 5000 people and a voter roll of 2800 (0+ / 0-)

      for the last presidential election we drew 2500 of them on that day, plus eleven absentee ballots which the clerk said were from local kids away at college voting at home (since they are in-state tuition that's as it should be in my book- getting a ballot was just part of the ton of paperwork ya gotta do, but that's another can of worms for another time).

      So it took until just after midnight to get 'er done, but seriously- what else is there to do on election night except sit around and speculate? Instead, bring your friends and neighbors and make short work of it in what amounts to an old-fashioned counting-bee!

      I understand that large cities are different, but if everyone was voting & counting in small precinct blocks, (and then sending the results up the chain by phone and on certified paper, as we do at the end of the night) it could be done and much more accurately imho.

      Any time you feed the results into the black hole of the tabulator, you've lost control of what comes out the other end unless you check it by hand...which simply means that the machine-makers are not just controlling who "wins" they are also makin' lotsa money along the way, every time we reprogram for a new election, somebody's gettin' paid, eh? HAND-COUNT THE VOTE!

    •  I agree. It's 2012, not 1842. (0+ / 0-)

      Women AND blacks can vote. Indians, too.

      "I believe more women should carry guns. I believe armed women will make the world a better place. Women need to come to think of themselves not as victims but as dangerous." Anna Pigeon

      by glorificus on Fri Oct 19, 2012 at 02:20:48 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  De ja vu (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Steve Canella

    all over again.  I've been here and done that already with Ohio.  Not again, please.  Not again.  Is that why the Ohio Polls have taken a sudden jump in Mittie's favor?  Gotta get the polling right if they are going to steal it.

    *the blogger formerly known as shirlstars

    by Shirl In Idaho on Thu Oct 18, 2012 at 09:59:00 PM PDT

  •  Frankly, this scares the crap out of me... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Steve Canella, dharmasyd, glorificus

    Pretty much the first thing my constitutional law professor told me was that election fraud is a blatant, well known fact of American elections.  If you ask me, everything should be done by paper ballots.  And State Secretaries shouldn't be elected in a partisan manner, they should be run by a bipartisan / non-partisan board.  But that would just make elections too sane for folks to handle I guess...

    •  I've felt the Rovian dirty tricks coming... (0+ / 0-)

      ...But now that you have elaborated them so clearly, I think I'll head for the bathroom and barf.  This country, perhaps this world, is ended; it's finished, through, completely Kaput!  

      It is Dante's Hell:  Abandon all hope all ye who enter here!

      Don't mean to bring anyone else down, just speaking what I see to be true.  The RESULTS of the election will tell the tale of whether we have a chance for a futiure or not!

      "Truth and love will overcome lies and hatred.” Vaclav Havel

      by dharmasyd on Thu Oct 18, 2012 at 10:55:33 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  almost impossible for Romney to win w/o OH (4+ / 0-)

      not the case for Obama

      if he wins VA, CO and one other battleground state

      if he wins FL

      If he wins CO, NV, NH, IA

      If Romney loses OH & NH he has a possible 269-269 tie assuming he holds 2nd CD of NE

      If Romney loses OH and any other state he has lost the election

      So OH is the whole ballgame for Romney, but not for Obama

      "We didn't set out to save the world; we set out to wonder how other people are doing and to reflect on how our actions affect other people's hearts." - Pema Chodron

      by teacherken on Thu Oct 18, 2012 at 10:58:37 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Please, check out this HBO documentary about (9+ / 0-)

    manipulating electronic voting machines:

    Go to the one hour mark and watch the part where a memory card that is only supposed to record vote data is found, without question, to have executable code on it.  Do you understand what this means?  The computer expert in this film manipulated the results of a trial election easily.  Watch the faces of those who denied he could do it.... watch their faces as the results they know are false come out of the machine.  A supposed MEMORY card that they say only records data had a PROGRAM on it that he used to overturn an election........

    And this is crazy conspiracy?  No way.  The right wing are thrilled when we can't make ourselves believe they would actually do this shit.......... we can't believe they would go this far...... but they go as far as killing people...... say, hundreds of thousands in Iraq....... do you really think they wouldn't do this?  Of course they would.  Conspiracies do exist..... and this one does, without doubt.

    "The law of love will work, just as the law of gravitation will work, whether we accept it or not...." -- Mahatma Gandhi

    by waydownsouth on Thu Oct 18, 2012 at 10:58:51 PM PDT

  •  Canadian Voting > American Voting (7+ / 0-)

    In Canada we have non partisan groups that run elections such as Elections Canada or for Provincial, Elections

    I worked as a Deputy Returning Officer for a Provincial Election once, it was a model of transparency and efficiency.  

    All the ballots in Canada are paper ballots and are counted by hand with every ballot shown to everyone in the group (including scrutineers from all the candidates) before it is added to the official tally.


    An Example Canadian Ballot

    I was the one who did the counting so I'd look at the ballot, then hold it up for all to see and say "This ballot is for John Smith" or whoever it was "Does everyone agree?" Of course everyone did because it was blindingly obvious, but it was open.

    I've never had a lineup when voting, but I live in a city of about 400,000. But of course we do have big cities too like Toronto at 2.6 Million and we don't have problems there either. Might be longer lines, I don't know. The more people in a place the more volunteers are available naturally.

    After the ballots are counted and the results are phoned in to the Returning office I collected up my ballot box and its contents and returned them to the Returning office where they stay until they're sent off for archival or judicial recount. Now of course this opens up the possibility of me stealing them if I was dishonest, but that could be dealt with in a less trusting environment.

    Now, from what I understand there are a lot more things to vote on in a U.S. election, but there's no reason it couldn't be similar there, more ballots or perhaps a bigger ballot. I think the biggest problems for you guys are that each individual state runs their own election and that those elections are up to partisan individuals who have something to gain by trying to rig the election.

    I may not like who won the last election, but I have no doubt about the integrity of the voting process and that's an important thing for a democracy. I hope someday soon my Liberal brethren down south have that same confidence.

    One thing I wish we had here that you guys do have tho is those cool "I voted" stickers.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9G8XREyG0Q

    by hishighness on Thu Oct 18, 2012 at 11:40:16 PM PDT

  •  This scares me. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    RhodaA, glorificus

    It really does.

    My lady binder is killing me.

    by surfermom on Fri Oct 19, 2012 at 12:56:06 AM PDT

  •  I think it is proper to be disturbed. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    RhodaA, Quicklund, glorificus

    We've already had several elections that ended up wildly different than the exit polls. We can't trust people not to be bad actors.  They believe in their cause. These machines can be tampered with, as has been proven in previous investigations.

    We actually need to have paper ballot copies that the voters can easily verify with all electronic machines. It needs to be easy for election monitors to follow the custody of them.

    This is an absolute must. It is not too much to ask for. The American People have been complacent about this up till now - the technology still seems new. It is a real threat, and anyone who says it isn't is in denial.

    "The only thing we have to fear - is fear itself." - Franklin Delano Roosevelt

    by orrg1 on Fri Oct 19, 2012 at 03:45:15 AM PDT

  •  CT? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    HudsonValleyMark, Quicklund
    OOps..Oh well...am I being too CT here?
    Yeah.  You are.

    I do not feel obligated to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use -- Galileo Galilei

    by ccyd on Fri Oct 19, 2012 at 03:57:18 AM PDT

  •  Onoz (3+ / 0-)

    Seriously though, the voting machines and the counting of the votes need to,be run by the state, not private companies.  At least then their code will not be hidden from public view and these CT's won't have the appeal they do now.

    Don't be so afraid of dying that you forget to live.

    by LionelEHutz on Fri Oct 19, 2012 at 04:33:15 AM PDT

  •  But Ohio has already gone very big Obama (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Beetwasher, Aquarius40

    This Ohioan knows his state--and its diverse regions too well.  The difference this time from the shenanigans created by the GOP machine controlling in 2004, is that ALMOST EVERYBODY HATES ROMNEY/RYAN, when in 2004 there was not that similar animosity against Bush II, still attempting to be the "wartime President."

    Look, folks, for the GOP to steal it this time, they would now need to deny:

    1) That all but a few counties in the entire state gave the Governor Kasich GOP administration the shellacking of the century within the past year--virtually emasculating his efforts to destroy collective bargaining for teachers, firefighters and police.

    2) That the one-fifth that has already voted, whom everyone knows, in every representative sample, has been heavily pro-Obama, vanished into oblivion.

    3) That the GOTV effort of the Obama/Biden was bested.  This is absolutely impossible, because this year that Democratic effort is far more thorough, far more involved, and even more motivated because of 1) and as a result of the preservation of far too many Ohio auto industry related jobs--these voters knowing that Romney himself still disdains the auto industry save.

    4) That, because of 2), Romney/Ryan will have needed a huge plurality of the remaining votes on Election Day--not just implausible but impossible because every sentient mind knows better.

    Of course, the GOP machine has made every effort to suppress the Democratic vote, but it is also true that the courts have universally ruled against these efforts.

    Thus, this year, they MUST ATTEMPT A SCENARIO IN WHICH THE POLLS ARE VERY CLOSE, but, barring the obviously partisan ones like Rasmussen, that will also be extremely difficult to swallow--as result of all four of the above.

    Yes, the GOP absolutely needs to steal it--with their fellow GOP thugs in the punditocracy and MSM, as well as skewered pollsters, but this time, it is going to be monumentally difficult.

    And this time, should they outright steal it; there will be a hue and cry from the Ohio electorate that will shock the living daylights out of efforts to install Romney/Ryan.  

    There will not be Al Gore and John Kerry passivity--there will be a mad as hell President Obama, whom you better believe will have known that the GOP stole Ohio.  

    This time, it can and should be the beginning of our second Civil War.  The GOP has been forewarned.

    •  ominous (0+ / 0-)

      "the beginning of our second Civil War"

      This is not the first post I've seen refer to this election as potentially the beginning of a civil war.

      Barack Obama is not a secret socialist class warrior who wants to redistribute wealth in America. But I'll still vote for him, anyway.

      by looty on Fri Oct 19, 2012 at 06:15:46 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I wish I was as sure of the reaction to GOP (0+ / 0-)

      theft as you. I was surprised it took so long for Ohio to be firmly pro-Obama, with its ties to the auto industry. Should have been a no-brainer imo.

      Swing states are not 100% reliable; that's why they call them "swing" states.

      "I believe more women should carry guns. I believe armed women will make the world a better place. Women need to come to think of themselves not as victims but as dangerous." Anna Pigeon

      by glorificus on Fri Oct 19, 2012 at 02:30:56 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Voter Machine Fraud Started 12 Years Ago (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    glorificus

    After the hanging chads of Florida, a WebSite BlackBox.com reported thousands of incidents where the new electronic (and yes in some cases paperless) were manipulated to under count Democratic Votes.

    12 years is a long time and enough time to perfect the machines to fraudently count votes.  

    Unless those machines are confiscated and evaluated for suspicious one sided voting right after the election no one will know.

    Conservatives say if you don't give the rich more money, they will lose their incentive to invest. As for the poor, they tell us they've lost all incentive because we've given them too much money. -GC

    by cobaltbay on Fri Oct 19, 2012 at 05:00:43 AM PDT

  •  Let me try and add some clarity and facts to this (8+ / 0-)

    discussion.  I am one of the two Democrats on the Hamilton  County Board of Elections.  I was not in 2004 by the way.  We do use Hart equipment in Hamilton County, that is true.  It is equipment that was purchased long before Bain had anything to do with Hart.  We use PAPER ballots that are optically scanned so there is a paper trail should there be any doubt.  No Hart employee will be anywhere close to that equipment in during the run up to the election nor during election day.  

    Programing is done by Board staff including a Democrat working with a Republican.  Every machine is tested and signed off on before it is used.   We do use a very few electronic machines only for disabled voters and those also produce a paper trail which the voter can see.

    While I understand people's concerns, and I too had my doubts about 2004, I think this issue is being over blown.  Hamilton County did go blue by 30,000 votes in 08, Kerry lost here by 23,000 votes in 04.  

    What I have been more concerned about is the limitations on early voting and the potential for long lines on election day.  

    But in Ohio we have won virtually every fight over restrictions on early voting.  I still remain concerned about the potential for voter intimidation and harassment on election day, and we are preparing for that.  But the idea that in Hamilton County the counting can be hacked and distorted I think is just simply off the mark.

    •  in 2004 I poll watched at Hamilton Cty voting site (4+ / 0-)

      largely African American community.  Lines unbelievably long people had to leave before voting to go to work, pick up kids.

      A voter told me in the previous year's mayoral race they had 5 voting machines.  In 2004 according to this voter, this same precinct had only 3 voting machines, at least 1 of which was broken.

      Expect the same games.

    •  have you diaried on this? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Quicklund

      I think it's possible to hack the count in Hamilton County, but I sure wish that people who express great concern about this issue wouldn't more or less equate it with Georgia -- which is a hell of a lot further from verifiable elections.

      Election protection: there's an app for that!
      Better Know Your Voting System with the Verifier!

      by HudsonValleyMark on Fri Oct 19, 2012 at 05:45:02 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I should have used my real name in my post above. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        HudsonValleyMark

        No it is not possible to hack the vote in Hamilton County as best I can see from my seat as a member of the Hamilton County Board of Elections.  I would be the first to be concerned if I saw anything to suggest that and I have looked into it.   There are other things in this election to be concerned about but this is not one of them at least in Hamilton County.

        -4.63,-3.54 If the people will lead the leaders will follow

        by calebfaux on Fri Oct 19, 2012 at 09:20:41 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  it's hard to do nuance in comment threads :) (0+ / 0-)

          I very much appreciate your entering into the discussion.

          At a high level of generality, if something can be programmed, it can be hacked. That isn't a counsel of despair, just important context.

          California's Top To Bottom Review found plenty of specific problems with the Hart systems. (Again, not a counsel of despair, but important context.)

          Procedural safeguards can ameliorate many of those problems -- although it is hard for people who don't work in the election office to have any idea whether those safeguards actually were followed.

          Protecting and auditing the paper ballots (and/or VVPATs) is important. One of my biggest disappointments with Ohio's audits is that they seem to be going from late to later. Conversely, one thing that makes me super-happy is that Cuyahoga County has piloted risk-limiting audits -- and one of the pilots drew upon a little paper I wrote to "translate" some statistical methods developed by Philip Stark at Berkeley. It's always nice to be useful.

          I'm not very worried about machine fraud in Hamilton County (or, really, anywhere else in Ohio -- although I distinctly prefer ballots to VVPATs). But "impossible" is a word that makes me even more nervous, because people can make awful mistakes when they think nothing can go wrong. I suspect what you mean is closer to: you've considered the possibilities of fraud and error, and you've established procedures that are likely to prevent or detect them.

          (Have you brought in a voting security expert to check your procedures? S/he might spot things you've missed. Serious face-value question; I know basically nothing about the nuts and bolts of security practices anywhere in Ohio, unless I read about it in the EVEREST report and happen to remember it.)

          A specific question abut the eScans: what happens if a scanner is inoperable? Is there a way to secure unscanned ballots, if it came to that?

          Election protection: there's an app for that!
          Better Know Your Voting System with the Verifier!

          by HudsonValleyMark on Fri Oct 19, 2012 at 10:17:34 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  these election officials (0+ / 0-)

            refuse to set up enough voting booths so everyone can vote , asking for extra cyber security would seem a bit hapless considering

          •  In that event yes, the ballots are secured. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            HudsonValleyMark

            Yes if something can be programmed it can be tampered with, but you have to have access to it for that to happen.

            None of our equipment is connected to the internet so you would have to have physical access and we are very careful about who has that.

            -4.63,-3.54 If the people will lead the leaders will follow

            by calebfaux on Sat Oct 20, 2012 at 10:11:32 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  how are the ballots secured? (0+ / 0-)

              I think the machines in my county have a special slot that can be opened and secured by key. Really I ought to know....

              I take your point about physical security. I strongly support good audits on the back end, especially because we've seen a few elections where errors (not hacks, as far as I can tell) would have altered election outcomes had they not been detected. (The most recent one I know of was in Palm Beach County -- where, in fact, the error was caught by a routine audit.)

              FYI, we're working on more efficient audit methods, so that instead of having to hand-count many thousands of ballots, you can learn more from smaller samples.

              Election protection: there's an app for that!
              Better Know Your Voting System with the Verifier!

              by HudsonValleyMark on Sat Oct 20, 2012 at 10:49:39 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

  •  What the GOP will do, as in 2004, is (4+ / 0-)

    make it difficult (long lines) to vote in largely Democratic precincts. Send the antiquated machines, fewer in number & broken. They know these folks have to work, pick up kids etc so they will insure the lines are long and work to make it as difficult to vote in these areas as possible.

    At GOP precints voters will sail through.

    Vote early.

  •  First off, Ohio is NOT everything.. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Quicklund

    there are several pathways to a Romney win that do not include Ohio.

    He pretty much has NC and FL sewn up at this point.  If he can get Virginia and Colorado (both very possible at this point) all he needs is WI and IA or NH.  He does not need OH or PA, though snagging Ohio certainly makes it easier.

    Other states are reporting higher than 2008 GOP early voting and lower than 2008 Dem voting.  One website is showing reduced Dem requests in Ohio for absentee ballots.

    So.  This all depends on turnout.  Spend your time in GOTV efforts.. this hand wringing about fraud is not only stupid given the facts regarding checks and balances in place, it is also unproductive.

    •  always fun to interact with Jerry J :) (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Quicklund, Jerry J

      Never mind the paths to a Romney win....

      Some of the checks and balances depend on voters. If people who write frantic diaries and comments on this topic consistently put front and center, "If you're voting on equipment that produces a paper record, be sure to check it!", I would immediately feel a lot more respectful.

      (The standard equipment in Hamilton County uses hand-marked paper ballots. The 'accessible' equipment relies on voter-verifiable paper records. Voters should actually, y'know, verify those.)

      Election protection: there's an app for that!
      Better Know Your Voting System with the Verifier!

      by HudsonValleyMark on Fri Oct 19, 2012 at 05:49:32 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  There's one other thing nobody talks about (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Febble

        when talking about massive statewide election "fraud".

        and first off, you are right about the need for people to check their record!

        But, here's the thing.. The people at the polling places are your neighbors.  Polling precincts are fairly small geographically.

        These people working there are your neighbors, some of them acquaintances and friends.

        To believe in massive voter fraud requires belief that these otherwise nice people are involved in some vast conspiracy to defraud voters.  The votes are tabulated in the polling precinct, then reported regionally or statewide.  Those totals are then published for anyone to check, and, I would imagine, are in fact checked for accuracy by most precincts.

        So, not only must you believe in a large scale fraudulent operation involving all these local people, you must believe that all the checks and balances built in to prevent this must also break down.

        It is simply ridiculous.  I worry more about getting cheated on my change at the grocery store than I worry about voter fraud.

        •  truly, it depends on the voting system (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Jerry J

          and the scenario. For instance, in many circumstances, the votes aren't tabulated at the polling precinct. In Ohio 2004, I think most votes were cast on punch cards and centrally tabulated at the county level.

          Where votes are tabulated at the polling precinct, that is a check against some forms of fraud, but one still doesn't know whether the tabulation was correct.

          What happens in CT-land is that the posited conspiracies expand and contract as current polemical exigencies dictate, with no systematic attention to the implications of particular scenarios. (When I write that badly, y'know I'm fried.) People say out of one side of their mouth that Mike Connell stole the election, and out of the other side that there was ballot tampering all over the state, with no real evidence for either -- but as long as no one can ever pin down the claims, they're winning!

          But back in the real world, the systems have some real vulnerabilities -- to hacking, accidental misconfiguration, "glitch," and so on. We can rationally address those, if we so choose.

          Election protection: there's an app for that!
          Better Know Your Voting System with the Verifier!

          by HudsonValleyMark on Fri Oct 19, 2012 at 09:32:20 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  That was pretty good! (0+ / 0-)
            What happens in CT-land is that the posited conspiracies expand and contract as current polemical exigencies dictate, with no systematic attention to the implications of particular scenarios.
            I'm impressed!
    •  You sound like the ESPN sports caster on Monday... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Patango

      ...who was trying to spin the different ways that San Diego could come back down 10 against Denver with 30 seconds left to play, and a long field in front of them.

      Yeah, it could happen, and the sun could also explode tomorrow, rendering any potential election results, well, moot.

  •  Definitely out there CT (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Quicklund

    the BBV hysteria is, was, and always has been a scam to separate those whose side loses an election form their money.

  •  Discrediting (0+ / 0-)

    a CT just for being a conspiracy theory has been widely used as a conspiracy -- tobacco, climate change, UFOs -- you name it. Anyone think conspiracies don't exist?

    In other words, being a CT neither validates nor invalidates a theory.

    •  True, but what does invalidate a theory (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      HudsonValleyMark, Quicklund

      is lack of supporting evidence and evidence to the contrary.

      And what makes it a Conspiracy Theory as opposed to a theory about a conspiracy (IMO) is when people advance bad arguments in favour (yeah, I'm a Brit) of theory CT and refuse to engage with rebuttals of those arguments.

      In this case, the argument (for large-scale electronic vote flipping) was largely based on the observation that the exit poll data, before adjustment, showed Kerry ahead nationally.

      There are two possibilities: that the poll had a systematic pro-Dem bias; that the vote had a systematic pro-Republican bias (i.e. some kind of vote theft had gone on).

      There is a huge amount of consilient evidence that the poll had a systematic pro-Dem bias.  There is very little good evidence of any kind of pro-Republican bias in the direction of electronic errors, or even that they were all that frequent; of any pro-Republican bias in the differences between precinct tabulations and county tabulations; there is very little evidence that electronic vote theft on a result-turning could have been accomplished centrally, and virtually none that it could have been achieved by piecemeal hacking of individual machines.

      Add to this the fact that neither in Ohio (in an independent study by Fritz Scheuren et al), nor nationally (in a study by me, conducted for Warren Mitofsky) was there so much as a hint of any relationship (correlation) between the degree to which a precinct swung Republican since 2000 and the degree to which the exit poll discrepancy was in Kerry's favour.  

      Plus the fact that the largest exit poll discrepancies included states with the least-hackable voting methods (lever machines in New York).

      And what you get is the removal of the exit poll story from the Theory completely.

      Which leaves people with

      a) the fact that electronic machines are potentially hackable (but not centrally)
      b) the fact that electronic county tabulators are potentially hackable (but discrepancies with precinct tabulators should be obvious)
      c) People actually appeared to vote for the most unlikeable president in US history (possibly the best argument, but then it's identical to the argument made on the right that there must have been voter fraud in 2008 because people couldn't possibly really have voted in such numbers for Odumbo)

      I submit this does not make a strong case for electronic vote theft.  It does make a strong case for mandatory, independent election audits of paper ballots, and for secure chain of custody of those ballots between their casting and their counting.

      And it potentially distracts from the real disenfranchisement that certainly cost Kerry's voters their vote in 2004, and just possibly Kerry the election (though I don't myself think so).

      Voter suppression is all too real.  Electronic vote theft is IMO at worst a small scale problem that needs fixing but need not keep you awake at night.

  •  Sure would be nice (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JanL

    ..if the polls looked just the slightest bit better in Florida. Hinging too much of the election victory plan on Ohio could possibly come back and bite us in the ass.

    There have been some slightly questionable results coming from the vote-counters there in the past.

    Perhaps one day the Fourth Estate will take their jobs seriously. Or not.

    by Anthony Page aka SecondComing on Fri Oct 19, 2012 at 06:46:57 AM PDT

  •  Six degrees of CT (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    HudsonValleyMark

    One candidate has a supporter, they are both big wheels in business, so they must be conspiring up to and possibly over the line into treason.

    Please, if you are going to raise this issue, do your %#$$%!@! homework. Don't just throw up a round of Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon.

    Perhaps I would not be so abrupt if there was a dearth of CT diaries on DKos lately. Instead we are awash in them. And this one to make the rec list ... with factual erorrs to boot? Without a scrap of evidence? No research? Bleh.

  •  Time between... (0+ / 0-)

    ...the diary being posted (6:52PM) and the last comment (6:47AM) might have been used working for Obama's re-election or turning the House or keeping the Senate. Priorities, being what they appear to be, may account for
    any shortcomings we suffer in this election... back to work for me.

  •  The final tallies... of all the different systems (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Amber6541

    paper, electronic etc... whoever is tabulating all of that potentially holds the power to rig the election... that is if it is done in any way at all similar to the way it was done in 2004... even if that was not a corrupt result... it was not free of the appearance of it being potentially corrupt... not enough transparency or oversight that year... so what is different this time around?

    Pogo & Murphy's Law, every time. Also "Trust but verify" - St. Ronnie (hah...)

    by IreGyre on Fri Oct 19, 2012 at 07:13:15 AM PDT

  •  If you're trying to sell voting machines to (0+ / 0-)

    republicans, you'd want them to have as many attractive features as possible.

    Re-elect President Obama because we don't need another selfish President

    by Timmethy on Fri Oct 19, 2012 at 07:17:23 AM PDT

  •  Thank-you. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Amber6541

    We need to be on top and all over this to prevent as much hanky-panky as possible, because we know from experience that the Ohio Republican Party will stop at NOTHING to throw the election results.  Hamilton County, btw, is where they closed the doors, threw out the observers, and recounted the votes by Republicans-only right before the state "mysteriously" swung from Kerry to Bush at 10 pm in 2004.  This was only one of many documented abuses in 2004, and Fitrakis and Wasserman are the experts on that.  So we need to be vigilant and proactive, and yes, we need someone to run ads telling voters how to check their votes after the fact and VERIFY that the correct vote was recorded, because vote-switching is a  known problem.

  •  Posted on this earlier in the week (3+ / 0-)

    H-I machines are in only two counties, Hamilton and Willams. As I stated in my post, the easiest way to screw with the vote is simply to make sure their is a "shortage" of machines in key precincts, and that replacements (in short supply) for breakdowns in those precincts go to other precincts.

    Far safer way to change the vote, as it is simply an extension of the voter suppression campaign now under way.

    Diddling computer code is a felony, and not as easy as some believe. Making "judgment calls about the deployment of voting machines on election day? Not so much.

    •  oh, quit with your serious threat assessment! (0+ / 0-)

      In Hamilton and Williams, as I said over there, I don't think misdeploying or crippling machines would be so effective, because (1) scanners are much faster than DREs and (2) it "should" be possible to secure voted ballots if the scanners are inoperable. There's a member of the Hamilton County Board whom we could ask about (2).

      In counties such as Franklin that depend on DREs (not Hart DREs), a denial of service attack is a good way to go. (The DREs generate verifiable paper trails, but that doesn't help a voter who never reaches a DRE.) Not an "oh noes we're doomed" threat, but something that needs to be addressed.

      Election protection: there's an app for that!
      Better Know Your Voting System with the Verifier!

      by HudsonValleyMark on Fri Oct 19, 2012 at 07:36:04 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  CT but expected (0+ / 0-)

    If O  loses that's all we'll see around here.  That and every single person that didn't vote for him is a racist.

  •  Why don't we just cancel the election in 49 states (0+ / 0-)

    Just hold the presidential election in Ohio.

    Seems to me like it'd be a lot more efficient and cost effective.

    /snark

  •  We've Already Lost... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    peregrinus, AreDeutz

    if Ohio is "everything".  Because of the problems that you've mentioned we simply can't count on Ohio, regardless of what the polling says.

    The other swing states are still doable and less compromised by GOP corruption.  Ohio is a "nice to win", but it can't be a "must win" or we're already through.

  •  are there paper records or other backups (0+ / 0-)

    in case of a recount?

    Can someone get a court order forcing that they be kept in anticipation of a recount?

    The Ryan budget - it's the Romney plan, and it's the republican plan for America. Read it and vote.

    by marking time on Fri Oct 19, 2012 at 08:34:15 AM PDT

    •  yes (0+ / 0-)

      Some Ohioans vote on paper ballots, counted by scanners. Others vote on DREs (often but not always touchscreens) that produce voter-verifiable paper records. Those ballots and records can be used in a recount. Under Ohio law, a candidate can request a partial recount wherever s/he wants, provided s/he is willing to pay the costs. There is also a close-margin recount provision and (procedurally, not as a matter of law) an audit, although the audit comes late.

      Election protection: there's an app for that!
      Better Know Your Voting System with the Verifier!

      by HudsonValleyMark on Fri Oct 19, 2012 at 09:15:39 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  In Hamilton County we use paper ballots (0+ / 0-)

      so yes there is a record.  Yes they are kept.

      -4.63,-3.54 If the people will lead the leaders will follow

      by calebfaux on Fri Oct 19, 2012 at 09:39:48 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Not again!!!!!!!!!!! (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    boatsie, Broke And Unemployed

    Not again

    I have a hunch that Obama is not going to let this happen.  2004 was enough.

    Daily Kos an oasis of truth. Truth that leads to action.

    by Shockwave on Fri Oct 19, 2012 at 09:04:39 AM PDT

  •  Absolutely necessary to be vigilant (0+ / 0-)

    After Florida 2000 and Ohio 2004, I think it would be insane to place faith in the process without verification.  In Florida 2000, Volusia county's mammoth computer miscount was quickly caught by county election officials who then recounted by hand, but the computer count had already done its damage -- it had led the networks to erroneously call the state and therefore the country for Bush when, as we know, the final result merited a recount by any standard.  In Ohio '04, the GOP deployed a huge range of voter suppression tactics along with some very questionable counts in certain precincts and counties, and we'll probably never know the true intention of the state's electorate that day.

    And this time, so much more is riding on the outcome of the election than 2004.  So the stakes are higher and so are the incentives for people who would subvert the process to commit irregularities or outright fraud.

    Just remember that all the confirmed or suspected examples of fraud and suppression we've seen in the US takes place at the margins, massaging figures a few percent this way or that.  You're never going to see anyone return a Soviet-style "99 percent win" in this country.  But it's a lot easier for bent officials and contractors to turn 51 percent Democrat into 49 than it is to turn 55 percent Dem into 49.  So this is an incentive for more GOTV and more vigilance, not less.  And I applaud people who shine a light on these problems.  It's our responsibility to react to this information appropriately, by working harder rather than giving up.  

  •  Bush stole Ohio in 2004, so we need to watch. (0+ / 0-)

    I sincerely, truly believe that Bush used dirty tricks to fix the 2004 election here in Ohio, and that Kerry was the rightful winner. Call me names, throw donuts, or whatever, you won't change my mind.

    There's been much ado in this thread about paper vs. electronic ballots. In my county, Portage, they use a hybrid system with a touch screen that electronically records the votes, then immediately prints a paper ballot as well as a hard record that can't be hacked or tampered with. I actually see the ballot being printed, and have to verify it when I finalize my vote.

    I'm OK with electronic voting as long as there's a paper trail to back it up. We need to watch this.

    I'm making arrangements with my boss and teachers to have Election Day off, and hopefully be involved in stopping Repub dirty tricks before they start.

    "I read this- Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand. I read every last word of this garbage, and because of this piece of $#!^ I'm never reading again!"-Officer Barbrady

    by Broke And Unemployed on Fri Oct 19, 2012 at 10:27:42 AM PDT

  •  Nitpicking and throwing donuts is missing th point (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Patango

    The reality here is that Ohioans' right to vote is under attack. Can we at least agree on that? New voter suppression efforts, the attack on early voting, and now Republicans are training thousands of vote challenegers to harrass people at the polls.

    Some, like me, believe that the 2004 election was stolen and that Kerry was our rightful 44th President. We're not wrong for saying that. Other disagree, and that's fine, but both sides have a right to their opinions.

    But what we need to do is set our differences aside and do everything we can to make sure that Ohio's votes count. I know anastasia p means well, but turning this thread into an argument won't help us defend one vote. Not one.

    I'm making arrangements to help on election day, and I applaud the diarist for drawing attention to Ohio, and anastasia for helping with the vote in Cuyahoga County. I'll be in Portage County helping too, because this election will come down to Northeast Ohio.

    If we let them, Repubs will steal another election.

    "I read this- Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand. I read every last word of this garbage, and because of this piece of $#!^ I'm never reading again!"-Officer Barbrady

    by Broke And Unemployed on Fri Oct 19, 2012 at 10:46:08 AM PDT

  •  Two questions have to be answered: (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Broke And Unemployed

    1.  How do we stop a fix?

    2.  What do we do about it if one occurs?

    We have to be prepared.  We have to already have the information on Election Day to know with strong confidence whether or not a given state's results pass the smell test, in the event of a Romney "victory."  Mere suspicions will not be enough to proceed, especially given how whiny and pathetic a lot of people around here under those circumstances - we need to have a good position from which to know whether we actually lost, or whether the real loss would be conceding.

    Everything there is to know about the GOP: They're the Bad Guys.

    by Troubadour on Fri Oct 19, 2012 at 11:04:42 AM PDT

    •  This. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Troubadour

      Really, who cares about these tiny details people are whining about. The real issue is that we have to make sure the vote is fair, that votes in Ohio and everywhere really count.

      "I read this- Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand. I read every last word of this garbage, and because of this piece of $#!^ I'm never reading again!"-Officer Barbrady

      by Broke And Unemployed on Fri Oct 19, 2012 at 01:21:56 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Could be why right wingers like absentee ballots (0+ / 0-)

    Because they know the machines are a problem.

    Absentee ballots are on paper.

    Women create the entire labor force.

    by splashy on Fri Oct 19, 2012 at 12:33:57 PM PDT

  •  . (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Americantrueandblue
    Fave, Fave
    I voted by absentee ballot, so that I had a paper ballot to prove my vote.  Try the decaf.

    Intolerance betrays want of faith in one's cause. - Gandhi

    by SpamNunn on Fri Oct 19, 2012 at 12:39:59 PM PDT

  •  Ohio Republican's stole the election before. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Broke And Unemployed

    Why should this time be any different than Bush V Kerry! You KNOW they stole that one!

    Barack Hussein Obama is OUR President and OUR Commander-in-Chief - Deal with it!

    by TekBoss on Fri Oct 19, 2012 at 02:10:43 PM PDT

  •  OK this is a HUGE HUGE DEAL (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    glorificus, Broke And Unemployed

    Something needs to be done.

    It is not piling inference on inference.

  •  Conspiracy theory or no, paperless electronic (0+ / 0-)

    voting with no backup system to verify will g>always be a problem. In a close election - particularly in our Electoral College system - a few strategically "misplaced" or reversed votes can make all the difference.

    As many have already pointed out, DRE (direct entry) machines provide no meaningful, independent record of voter intent for auditing purposes, whereas for all their flaws OS (optical scan) systems do. In many cases, even with a VVPAT (voter verified paper audit trail) printout from a DRE machine, there is no guarantee that the same information is recorded correctly or securely. Accurate and secure recording of that vote relies solely on technology, which is of course controlled by the private companies who manufacture or manage the machine and the eventual vote count.

    With DRE, even if tallies are correctly counted, the totals for each candidate often are not. As a few posters have already pointed out, in 2004 the NYT reported 3,893 Bush votes in an Ohio precinct with only 800 voters. <Link>

    A nice summary of the pro's and con's of whether it's even possible to audit e-voting can be found at Link

    All this of course is not to discount the potential impact of many other, very real manipulations: voter suppression, intimidation, misinformation, selective culling of voter registration forms, Voter ID laws, etc., etc., etc. [Man, I'm beginning to depress myself…]

    Vigilance - or at least alertness - is clearly warranted. Sad but true...

  •  Cash is King (0+ / 0-)

    Truth is, too many people are more concerned about their money than their vote. Other similar software driven Counting and Recording machines such as ATM's Cash Registers, and yes - Casino Slots are light years ahead in dependability and ACCOUNTABILITY. Some people will spend more time tracking down that $20 bill the ATM shorted them, than be concerned about their own vote being counted. Boggles the mind.

  •  What amazes me (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    tvdude

    Is how a state like Ohio can be so strong for Obama in '08, and yet manage to elect some of the most partisan Republican Governors and Secretaries of State in the nation. It's like an electorate of two "different" states ... or is it that the presidential election is too "High Profile"? Maybe the "Shenanigans" just happens in "off year" elections (when no one is paying attention)? How many people can even "name" their own SOS?

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