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This is my very first please forgive me if I do not follow proper protocol in some way.  It is certainly not intended. I will be grateful for any advise, in this regard, if need be.

 I have decided to diary this as I feel it is important enough to do so.   My meeting with a voter from Ohio has night, left me concerned enough to still be thinking of it this morning.  

I think most of us here, take for granted that most people are at least half as informed as we all.  We feel most people must watch the news, at least once a day. Most people must read enough to be knowledgeable in some way. Most people must take some interest, in such a valued right as voting, and so even if they can not quote every poll, from every source....we should be able to assume that they must still value the system enough to be a somewhat informed voter. However, it is becoming more and more apparent and it is truly a travesty, that voters who hold our lives in their hand, take no more time to research the parties, the candidates or the issues, or with any more care than they would to find out the biography of  the latest superstar or American Idol contestant.

Please follow me below, to see what happened to me last night when I met a true undecided voter from Ohio.

Last night, at a friend's gathering, my husband and I met the sister of our hostess, for the first time.  She was visiting her sister,from Cincinnati, Ohio.  Naturally, after we were introduced and I found out where she was from...I knew somehow I must eventually turn the conversation to politics.  So, after we shared a bit of wine and she loosened up, I bought up the election.

It took no time at all to determine that I was speaking to a true low-information, undecided voter.  She said she was registered and her husband too, but they had not voted, but were certain to do so.  However, she said she still had no idea who she would vote for and she told me that her husband would probably vote for Romney. He was sitting nearby and then leaned over and said "I never said that.  I don't know who I am voting for yet, either." He then said, "But I am not happy with the last 4 years."

 She said, "They are all lying, so we have no clue who to vote for. We have just decided to go with our gut on election day, but nothing good has happened in 4 years. Mainly, it bothers us that they are all lying.  Everyone is saying the other side is lying, so who can you trust?"

I asked her if she had been checking the fact checking sites.  Someone else sitting beside us, piped in that the fact checking sites were all liars too and others nodded in agreement.

 I told them, "That is not true. You just have to research the claims. Romney has been proven to be a liar on numerous occasions. The President has not."  I was met with snickers and a couple of rolled eyes, but they left our talk and I was glad.

 I then brought up that at least she can be confident that in regard to health care and especially women's healthcare, Obama is the only choice.  

She said,"If you mean abortion, I'm Catholic.  If you mean Obamacare, they are never going to pass it anyway."  

(I was speechless)

 But then spent several minutes telling her that yes it was already law and the SC upheld it.  Naturally, I had help from others around us with this topic, and honestly, I tried to steer it to a quick close because this particular road became a bit heated.  

She then said, "Well, it doesn't matter I have health insurance"  

(of course you do....I felt like saying)

She did mention that they have disconnected their home phone due to all the calls and said her husband will run off any volunteer who happens to ring their doorbell.

She said, "He is union and so they have our name apparently, because we get a knock every other day."

(so he is union and they are still undecided.  Again, I was speechless)

I told her, "You do know that Romney will attempt to disband the unions as much as he possibly can."  

She said, "No, I don't believe that. They haven't done it in all of these years, and it won't be different this time."

 I then told her all I knew about the GOP governors who are doing just that in every state that gave them that power in 2010. I then told her that if it had been up to Romney, he would have every city just go bankrupt.

She was bored with me, it seemed, because she replied, "Well, I just don't think that will happen."

We followed several other topics but I was so crushed that this is someone who literally holds our entire country's future in their hands and yet that power is so incredibly meaningless to her.

 They were so woefully ignorant of the issues of the election, and especially at this late date, and yet they just sat there and almost boasted of their lack of regard to even take the time to find out the facts. Both her and her husband,  should be every bit a proud progressive voter...union, middle class/working class, one a woman, one a minority....but yet because they don't even care enough to research, they might very well vote against their own interests and then be terribly shocked one day soon.... when they find the hard way, and what we already know to be true....that that one vote could make all the difference in the world to their lives.  


1:08 PM PT: Thank you so much for all of the comments and recommends!   I never expected even I appreciate it tremendously.

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Comment Preferences

  •  That's like spotting a 4 leaf clover! (8+ / 0-)

    -1.63/ -1.49 "Speaking truth to power" (with snark of course)!

    by dopper0189 on Sun Oct 28, 2012 at 10:04:30 AM PDT

  •  in my next (15+ / 0-)

    life I want to come back as a swing state undecided voter.  Living in such blissful ignorance and being courted by the candidates to the point where they practically  mow your lawn and do your laundry....

    Justice For Will Will spent his brief, courageous life fighting for the rights we all take for granted. Please share his story to support the fight!

    by KibbutzAmiad on Sun Oct 28, 2012 at 10:05:37 AM PDT

  •  and there we have it folks... (24+ / 0-)

    when she kept saying..."oh they have never done it it before, they wont do it now". That just shows me how ignorant these people are or they just dont care and prefer to skate by.

  •  None are so blind as those who will not see. (9+ / 0-)

    Thank you ever so much for taking the time to try to enlighten this person.  I hope some of it will take root.

    Incidentally, what she said about being fed up with ads and calls is a powerful indictment of the Electoral College system.  Since not only does each side have a billion dollars to spend but also then can target it to 10% of the population, everyone in swing states is subjected to an unbelievable barrage of ads and calls, mostly negative, with the result that they become cynical and desensitized.

  •  SOMEONE THAT (6+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    COBALT1928, ybruti, Wee Mama, SaintC, sharman, rlb

    lthat calls OHIO home tells you nothing good has happened in the last four years that should be your clew that this person is voting based on something else. No one could be that clewless and not even wanting to be educated on the issues believe me issues has no place in this persons life.

  •  Undecided... Johnson or Stein... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    That's change I can really believe in!

    Progressive, Independent, Unitarian, Vermonter.

    by Opinionated Ed on Sun Oct 28, 2012 at 10:11:57 AM PDT

  •  People like this should not vote. (9+ / 0-)

    I'm sorry if that sounds harsh and un-American but, honestly, if you can't take the time to pay attention to the news ("they'll never pass Obamacare"... when it's already law) or research the facts, when you just think "both sides lie", or "oh, they'll never do that"... why are you even bothering to vote? Are you just going to flip a coin in the booth? Vote for the one with the prettiest smile? What's the point? Leave this important task to people who know what they're voting on.

    I'm a dyslexic agnostic insomniac. I lie awake at night wondering if there's a dog.

    by rennert on Sun Oct 28, 2012 at 10:11:58 AM PDT

  •  the three images response (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    COBALT1928, cotterperson

    I've felt for a long time that if we could get actual facts like the following to those people, we'd be in find shape.  It's just difficult to do.

    But really, if they saw this info and understood it as the actual reality, that would probably settle things for most of the undecideds..

    wherin we share a community blog for common goals for humanity.

    by worldforallpeopleorg on Sun Oct 28, 2012 at 10:12:30 AM PDT

  •  Disturbing (9+ / 0-)

    My guess is, these are indeed conservative-leaners.  When confronted with how awful their party is, they retreat to "both sides do it, they all lie, oh I just don't believe that's going to happen,"  blah blah

    Did you ask whom they voted for in 2000 and 2004?  I would truly bet, these are Bush voters who can't admit they were miserably wrong.  Perhaps it is a bit of progress, that they retreat to the fantasyland of, the tribe I identified with can't be so awful, so both tribes' chieftains are equally awful.

    Hopefully, this is the first step to them putting down the koolaid pitcher and eventually entering the fact-based world.

    Wish I had some ideas for nudging such folks in that direction.

    I know I would have wanted to smack them both into next year.  Or say, if you truly don't know what's going on, and you have decided not to believe anything you hear, nor check any facts, then perhaps you shouldn't be voting this time.

    Thanks for the sobering story.

    •  She told me Obama for herself in 2008 because (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Wee Mama, blueoasis

      she said she hated Bush.  

      But I didn't ask about her husband, though I should have.    

      •  Would love to know whom she (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Wee Mama

        voted for in 2000 and 2004.  I will bet it was Bush.  Then, buyer's remorse leads her to vote for Obama in 2008.  Then, O goes and fixes the crap Bush left behind, allowing her the luxury of forgetting what a disaster her party is, to drift back to her tribe, or make excuses for her tribe:  Oh, everybody lies, oh nothing good happened in the last 4 years, ooh ooh Obamacare

  •  Good first diary :) (8+ / 0-)

    I've mentioned this here to people- the thing about Willard being a pathological liar really doesn't matter to people. They shrug it off, "Eh, he's a politician, it's what they do," or "Eh, both sides do it."

    I agree with newdem1960, they sound like lean Romney, but they could break for the president.

    Anyhow, I like this diary because it's the very definition of a low info voter. How someone can say they are certain to vote but can't be bothered to inform themselves on the issue is beyond me, but that's the electorate that we have. Sigh.

    P.S. I am not a crackpot.

    by BoiseBlue on Sun Oct 28, 2012 at 10:14:11 AM PDT

  •  They sound Republican-leaning (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    Ignorance and power is a toxic combination

  •  How terrifying and sad that the "guts" of (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    know-nothing, care-even-less types like this will decide the future of our country on Nov 6.

    •  Actually, we ALL decide, all who vote, (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      in every state.

      Just because a state isn't close doesn't mean it doesn't count.

      Logically, arithmetically.

      I hang my hope on the fact that people described in this diary won't actually vote.  50% of them don't. :)

  •  It always puzzles me (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    COBALT1928, jayden, rlb

    that people this uninformed and misinformed still plan to vote.  I see it and hear it all the time out here in Red Wyoming.  I just don't get it.  I also hear the "they all lie" comment all the time.  

    So it appears that their vote is going to be just some fantasy of who they guess it feels right to vote for on election day.

    I don't get why they go to the bother of voting at all.

    *the blogger formerly known as shirlstars

    by Shirl In Idaho on Sun Oct 28, 2012 at 10:23:07 AM PDT

  •  Learn to choose who to engage in political (6+ / 0-)

    conversation with. Many will say undecided or whatever because they don't want to argue. They really have made up their minds. The only way to go is fein ignorance yourself and ask leading questions that plant negativity in thier minds.

    Gee what do you think is in those tax returns?
    I had a freind that had to pay Cobra it cost $800 a month!
    Do you think that video about people on SS is true?
    Wouldn't it be easier if you really don't know to just not vote?

    Use Romney voters to motivate yourself. Next day make 20 phone calls on Dashboard.

    How big is your personal carbon footprint?

    by ban nock on Sun Oct 28, 2012 at 10:24:32 AM PDT

    •  Taking the right approach (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ban nock

      can be tricky of course. I like the advice of going at it in such a way that you affiliate with them off the bat -- like whooo weee, boy are we all tired of this election. And then yes, bringing up things that even low-info voters have been exposed to. Like boy, he sure looked like a jerk in that 47% video though...hard to ignore that one!

      For a woman who's on the fence like that, I'd tend to steer clear of abortion and contraception, because few midwestern conservative-leaning women are going to own up to being champions of reproductive rights in a social setting like that. Instead, I'd point out that Romney in the second debate commented that "IF we're going to have women in the workforce..." "IF? Really? I have two daughters and that comment really made me look up." Or even "I knew Mormons didn't have any women in leadership positions but I didn't think that would necessarily matter but gosh, you can see what his real attitude is right there, I think."

      Those sorts of comments might be helpful. I'm currently trying to slowly work on two undecided female friends in Colorado, my home state. One of them regularly posts on Facebook about STILL being undecided, and she gets comments from friends who describe partial-birth abortion for her. She's a well-meaning but naive soul so I've tried various things in small quantities, like just plain saying well, I admire the President. I think he's a good man. The other undecided is very earnest but not that savvy on politics and policy, so I recently sent her the "Fired up, ready to go" video. A lot of it is just feelings and hunches for folks like these, for better or worse. A lot of them think who is president isn't going to matter in their daily lives that much. And yes, plenty of people "don't want to discuss politics" and are turned off in general.

  •  She and her husband (7+ / 0-)

    are Republicans and will vote for Romney. But they didn't want to commit to that in the middle of a party where they would be attacked instead of being wooed. They got lots of attention and still get to go home and screw the country.

  •  Glad to read your first diary here! (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jayden, Bailey2001, Penman, nomandates, Vetwife

    These people sound as though their "gut" will definitely lead them to Romney on election day.

    Anyone who thinks that both candidates lie equally is willing to overlook Romney's Olympic mendacity.  Their dismissal of your reasoned information leads me to the conclusion that they are not undecided at all.  They are just not admitting that they have chosen Romney.

    Their "gut" will steer them to the white guy in the end.  I congratulate you for 1)trying and 2)knowing when to quit.  A vote in the hands of such uninformed people is like a car in the hands of someone who doesn't know how to drive.  Dangerous.

    On a side note, my son and daughter-in-law just arrived from Washington DC.  My DIL was telling me about the various unmarried young women she works with.  A few are voting Romney, one who has already voted won't tell her who she chose, and others are keeping their choices secret.  This, to me, says that they are choosing Romney because he's white (like the undecided voters described here) and know that it's a bad choice.   For this reason, they are ashamed to admit it.

    "My dear friends, your vote is precious, almost sacred. It is the most powerful nonviolent tool we have to create a more perfect union." ---Representative John Lewis

    by SottoVoce on Sun Oct 28, 2012 at 10:44:23 AM PDT

    •  I've wondered about this neo-Bradley effect: (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      SottoVoce, Bailey2001

      Their thought process goes like this:

      "I voted for Obama in 08 because it was the tide and I assuaged my own racist tendencies to do it.

      "But now Obama is just another politician, and he is quite black, you know.

      "But I can't say out loud I'm voting for Romney, so I'll say I'm voting for Obama--or not discuss the topic publicly at all."

      Just curious how many voters there are out there like that.

    •  yes, as some topics came up and I saw it getting (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      SottoVoce, nomandates

      heated I left it alone.  I am in a swing state myself, Nevada, and no need to cause friction.  

      As far as race...I'm black so naturally she wouldn't say this to me but her husband was Hispanic, so hopefully, even though she was white, this wasn't the motivation.

      I truly think she was just ignorant and has chosen to leave herself in that state, rather than take the time to educate herself.  

  •  Last evening (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Bailey2001, page394

    I ran into a neighbor while walking my dog.  She is late forties.  Says she does not know who to vote for because if Obama wins "there will be people in the streets" and she is afraid.  WHA?  Spoke like she is a liberal but SOMETHING scared the hell out of her.  FAUX?  Then she mentioned 9/11 and I offered that our own gov did it to which she replied, "I know - they didn't protect us".  Whiff.  The year I made phone calls for MoveOn (2004 - Kerry) I had a neighbor on my list so she opened up to me more than a stranger might.  Said she was SO SCARED that we would be attacked again by the terrorists and just did not know for whom to vote but that when she entered the voting booth God would tell her who to vote for.  Yes, these morons are walking amongst us.  And the Repubs are counting on it.  

    •  If Obama wins, (0+ / 0-)

      "there will be people in the streets"?

      What does that even mean?
      Riots? Black people?


      Doesn't she know he already won in 2008 and has been President for 4 years? Were there scary "people in the streets" then?

      I swear, I don't know what some people in this country are smoking.

      But I do know that racism probably subtracts about 2% from Obama's popular vote, as a recent study surmised, and that makes me sad.

      I'm a dyslexic agnostic insomniac. I lie awake at night wondering if there's a dog.

      by rennert on Sun Oct 28, 2012 at 02:47:03 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Obama, win or lose, (6+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Bailey2001, keetz4, page394, rlb, rennert, asindc

    finishes this election with his soul intact.

    Romney, win or lose, finishes this election losing what was left of his.

    The lust for power, for power's sake, is a motherfucker.

    "A squid eating dough in a polyethylene bag is fast and me?" - Don Van Vliet

    by AlyoshaKaramazov on Sun Oct 28, 2012 at 10:48:24 AM PDT

  •  I know people like this (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    In CO...some are Democrats and some are Republicans. One of my friends, who is a Dem, always says "they all do it". I become very irritated with her, but at least she is voting for Obama and Dems.

    What can you do?

    Has anyone read the New Yorker's George Packer article about the guy who worked for Biden...It's a long, wonderful and informative article that at the end I came to the conclusion "they are all in the pocket of Wall Street"...i.e. Christopher Dodd...

    A man's character is his destiny.

    by Jaleh on Sun Oct 28, 2012 at 10:51:57 AM PDT

    •  It's cop-out by people who (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      are not well-informed but want to pretend they are. They think it makes them sound informed and jaded to say "oh, they all do it." What they're really saying is "I have no earthly idea what I'm talking about but I want to make political conversation and sound like I do."

      I'm a dyslexic agnostic insomniac. I lie awake at night wondering if there's a dog.

      by rennert on Sun Oct 28, 2012 at 02:48:53 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  the "both sides do it" voter (3+ / 0-)

    Your acquaintances appear to be products of the "mainstream" media.  If one were to get their news only from the networks and CNN they would come to this confused conclusion frequently.  Think of all the Sunday talking heads who cover the horse race with a smug pandering to those who would be above it all, then convene a panel of 75% right wing bullshitters and no progressives.  The media is in the business of making the political parties equivalent and acceptable.  In a two party system, no matter how many war crimes a Bush commits or how many lines of respectability Romney crosses--tax returns, 47%, lie/position change a minute debates--they are legitimized every moment.  It's the frame of news as a business rather than a service.

  •  It's always dumbfounding when the (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    "Obama hasn't done enough" crowd says they'll vote for the rich guy who openly believes government shouldn't do anything at all. The logical disconnect and mental gymnastics of these people is staggering.

    And sure, the last four years haven't been easy. But don't ever forget GWB took a crap on the country and left it in a huge mess for someone else to clean up. Four years isn't enough time for anyone to undo that kind of damage.

    For all the rethug finger-pointing at the left and claiming we believe Obama was going to be some sort of savior the people complaining most about how the POTUS didn't spin straw into gold and turn water into wine is coming from the right. Again, the disconnect is staggering.

    Not this mind and not this heart, I won't rot • Mumford & Sons

    by jayden on Sun Oct 28, 2012 at 11:00:15 AM PDT

  •  I have so much to say, much of it will be a rant (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Bailey2001, nomandates, 42, rlb

    And so I'm probably going to likely say it in a diary of my own because I don't want to clog up this great 1st diary of yours.  Obviously I hear your frustration with this couple (and others in the room), and I of course share your frustration 200%.  I just want to say, "WTF is wrong with you people" at the top of my lungs, but it falls on deaf ears (actually I'd probably anger/scare them even more with my yelling).

    Saturday Night Live had the best skit on this a few weeks back.  These people are straight up ignoramus boobs, period.  It's one thing for them not to keep up with politics.  I used to be there myself.  The difference between me and them was I didn't start voting until I did know who and what the hell I was voting for.  That's not a great excuse on my part - I should have started paying more attention better once I turned 18.  But if I didn't have much of an excuse, they have absolutely none, and they are grown adults.

    Okay, I could go on, but I'll save it for another diary.  

    Lawrence, KS - From ashes to immortality

    by MisterOpus1 on Sun Oct 28, 2012 at 11:07:00 AM PDT

  •  It needs saying again... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    page394, Vetwife

    ...that democracy is not a spectator sport.

    I'm not always political, but when I am I vote Democratic. Stay Democratic, my friends. -The Most Interesting Man in the World

    by boran2 on Sun Oct 28, 2012 at 11:50:23 AM PDT

  •  Funny my MIL said a similar thing to me last week. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    They are Republican, but she said that she didn't think Romney knew what it was like for poor people. Of course I agreed. Then she went off on if Obamacare gets passed. She was quite surprised when I told her it already was. Then told me how she had "paid enough" so her next doctor visit would be zero. You can thank Obamacare for that I told her. I may have had some impact. I don't expect that she will vote for the President, but I may have talked her into not voting Romney.

    Oh for crying out loud!

    by 4mygirls on Sun Oct 28, 2012 at 12:49:34 PM PDT

  •  Propaganda works (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    There's a billion dollars being spent for each candidate this year.  There are 24 hour misinformation channels.  They may think both candidates lie because they can't believe that news and advertising are allowed to be completely false.

    I was listening to the Liberal Oasis show and they talked about how you can't win people over by pointing out the other side is lying, because the other side says the same thing.  The Swift Boat Vets were total horseshit and it didn't matter.  Pointing out Mitt's flip flops doesn't matter.  Why he's flip flopping matters--he's pretending to be more moderate now to get elected just like Bush did.  But he picked a right wing zealot for a running mate and he has Bush's foreign policy team.  And Mitt's other flips like on Detroit or Bin Laden are because he has a history of being wrong.

    I think when we try to inform undecideds we have to realize a lot of voters just want to be normal/average, and the left wing and people's voice has been devalued in a lot of circles.  Think how many unionfolks voted against their own interest in Wisconsin.  It's a tough road.  The corporate position has always had the ability to mask the people's position.  And the corporations have more resources than ever.

  •  "That just won't happen" (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    That's what I thought about getting us into a war of choice for no effing reason.  As I watched the march to Iraq, I still couldn't believe it.  Now, I know that wishing doesn't make it so.  

    That woman is deluded.  How could she not know that her own governor and legislature passed and anti-union law?  I do know that many people are not engaged to the extent that I am, but that simply beggars belief.  I know about it and I don't freakin' live in Ohio!

    -7.62, -7.28 "Hold fast to dreams, for if dreams die, life is a broken winged bird that cannot fly." -Langston Hughes

    by luckylizard on Sun Oct 28, 2012 at 07:41:52 PM PDT

  •  Grrrr. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    the only group in the country that i think are actually, willfully just waiting for mommy and daddy to decide their lives are these late-stage "undecideds".

    "oh, everything is shitty, everyone's a liar, everything is waaaaauuuughhh so i just DONT KNOW"

    BULLSHIT. they COULD know, they just don't want to. It's easier to let everything be a fail then to look for the solution. I know. I used to feel this way about everything.

    Therapy helped.

    These folks are like having a child in the national car who only says "i dunno" when asked about dinner choices, but who complains at every suggestion. The problem is that the choices for dinner are "a restaurant" and "a burning tire" and they're STILL saying "ummmmmmm, whatever, it's all shitty."


    If only Michael Phelps hadn't smoked that pot...imagine what he could have accomplished with motivation and good lung capacity.

    by papa monzano on Tue Oct 30, 2012 at 01:26:08 PM PDT

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