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I rarely post here...but am a daily reader and appreciate all that I learn here.  I just hung up the phone with my almost 27 year old son.  We live in VA, and he has decided not to vote in the Presidential election.  He is a passionate and intelligent young man.  He was raised as a liberal...and is probably more liberal than I am in many ways.

I am more or less a single issue voter...women's rights...and raised my sons to be adamant feminists which they are.  He even mocks me to be out canvassing today for the President as he knows how I feel about the drone attacks and Obama's Wall Street connections.

He disagrees with Obama on many issues...Drone Attacks, the closing of Guantanamo bay, Wall street connections, Patriot Act, etc....many of which I agree with him. NOT vote...and basically GIVING your vote to Romeny.  I just don't get it.  Nothing I said to him seemed to sway his decision.  He wants to make a point...wants to be true to his beliefs.  And i respect that...but I just begged him not to do it during this election with his vote.  I told him to find another way to make his point and share his opinion.  He plans on voting for Kaine and Douglas...but is withholding his presidential vote.

He is well smart...and strong willed like his mother.  He thinks I'm foolish to focus on one issue...although I do NOT look at only one issue, but it is my MAIN issue.

So, that's the gist.  I am asking for help...I tried to talk to him about the supreme court, women's rights, education, and a variety of topics that are obviously different between Romeny and President Obama.  But, I am not informed enough to speak on a variety of issues especially international issues.

I want to be able to have another conversation with convince him that although he disagrees with President Obama on SOME/many issues that he still needs to vote to support issues that he does feel strongly about that align with the President...but although I would love to educate myself further and have some sort of solid argument, I just do not have the time.  I'm a teacher...and a single mom and my life is crazy.

Anyone have some good resources or thoughts to share about how to present an argument to my son to convince him that he needs to vote for President Obama?

i would truly appreciate it.

Thanks a bunch in advance...a tearful mom in VA.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Tip Jar (25+ / 0-)

    "Never separate the life you live from the words you speak." "Sometimes, the only realists are the dreamers." Paul Wellstone

    by mom2dems on Sun Oct 28, 2012 at 04:26:58 PM PDT

  •  Vote trade. (15+ / 0-)

    See if he'll vote trade with someone in a state where it won't be close. They vote for Jill Stein or whoever, he votes for Obama.

    it fitfully blows, half conceals, half discloses

    by Addison on Sun Oct 28, 2012 at 04:29:54 PM PDT

  •  Maybe what (15+ / 0-)

    Andrew Sullivan says in the attached link on the moral case for Obama will help--especially on Romney bringing back torture, war in the Middle East, and the need for health care.  Good luck!

  •  It's best to leave him alone on that (9+ / 0-)

    and spend your time GOTVing on the actual persuadables.

    •  Three words... (16+ / 0-)

      The. Supreme. Court.
      Also, I didn't vote in 2000, and I still feel guilty when I think about it.
      I suppose it was similar, not being psyched about Gore, not really seeing all the awfulness coming...

      "...annoyingly ethical,"

      by chicating on Sun Oct 28, 2012 at 04:37:05 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Exactly. I am about the same age... (6+ / 0-)

        as the diarist's son, I get where he is coming from, but refusing to vote won't stop drone strikes. I would ask him if he likes the idea of Mitt Romney making appointments to the Supreme Court.

        Does he honestly believe that there is no difference between the sort of individuals Obama has appointed to the Court and the right-wingers Romney would appoint?

        Ruth Bader Ginsburg is 79. Justices Scalia and Kennedy are both 76. There is every possibility that at least one of them - probably Ginsburg - will retire in the next four years. Does he really want to see the liberal-to-moderate Justice Ginsburg replaced with another right-winger like Alito or Scalia? Does he want to see more rulings like Citizen's United? Becuase that's what will happen if Romney is elected. Being pro-feminist, I would also ask him if he would he like to see Roe vs. Wade overturned. Also, does he like the idea of our civil rights and religious liberties being further eroded? Because that is also a definite possibility if we get a more conservative Supreme Court.

        If he votes for no other reason, he should vote because of the Supreme Court. Whatever he may think of Obama, the President would never appoint another Scalia, Roberts or Alito to the Court. Romney would - and will - if elected.

        He is angry about GITMO. Well, so am I, and I would remind him that GITMO wouldn't exist if conservative justices like Justice Scalia hadn't appointed George W. Bush as our President in Bush vs. Gore. As the Republicans are always saying - elections have consequences.

        Also, she might consider giving him a little background info on Mitt and how he made his money. Ask him if wants someone who is completely without conscience to serve as our President.

        Mitt Romney got 40% of the money for Bain Capital from members of El Salvadoran death squads, with that money he destroyed the lives and careers of American workers, sending their jobs to China, where he owns factories that employ teenage slave laborers.

        There was an excellent article posted on this subject at HuffPo.

        While they were on the lookout for investments in the United States, members of some of these prominent families -- including the Salaverria, Poma, de Sola and Dueñas clans -- were also at the time financing, either directly or through political parties, death squads in El Salvador. The ruling classes were deploying the death squads to beat back left-wing guerrillas and reformers during El Salvador's civil war.
        The death squads committed atrocities on such a mass scale for so small a country that their killing spree sparked international condemnation. From 1979 to 1992, some 75,000 people were killed in the Salvadoran civil war, according to the United Nations. In 1982, two years before Romney began raising money from the oligarchs, El Salvador's independent Human Rights Commission reported that, of the 35,000 civilians killed, "most" died at the hands of death squads. A United Nations truth commission concluded in 1993 that 85 percent of the acts of violence were perpetrated by the right, while the left-wing Farabundo Martí National Liberation Front, which was supported by the Cuban government, was responsible for 5 percent.
        The author was interviewed by Democracy Now.

        She could always email him a link the interview. As someone who cares about civil rights and human rights, I can't imagine her son would approve of Mitt's investors or his business practices.

        When I was back in my private equity days, we went to China to buy a factory there. It employed about 20,000 people. And they were almost all young women between the ages of about 18 and 22 or 23. They were saving for potentially becoming married.
        And they work in these huge factories, they made various uh, small appliances. And uh, as we were walking through this facility, seeing them work, the number of hours they worked per day, the pitance they earned, living in dormitories with uh, with little bathrooms at the end of maybe 10, 10 room, rooms. And the rooms they have 12 girls per room. Three bunk beds on top of each other.

        You've seen, you've seen them? And, and, and around this factory was a fence, a huge fence with barbed wire and guard towers. And, and, we said gosh! I can't believe that you, you know, keep these girls in! They said, no, no, no. This is to keep other people from coming in. Because people want so badly to come work in this factory that we have to keep them out. Or they will just come in here and start working and, and try and get compensated. So we, this is to keep people out. And they said, actually Chinese New Year as the girls go home, sometimes they decide they've saved enough money and they don't come back to the factory....And, and so as we were experiencing this for the first time, going to see a factory like this in China some years ago.
        ~ Mitt Romney

        This is how Mitt does business. He didn't just "see" those factories, he made a profit from them.
        According to filings with the Securities and Exchange Commission obtained by Mother Jones, in 1998, Brookside Capital Partners Fund, a Bain Capital affiliate, noted "it had acquired 6.13 percent of Hong Kong-based Global-Tech Appliances...That August, according to another SEC filing, Brookside upped its interest in Global-Tech to 10.3 percent."

        For the next two and a half years, until just after Romney left Bain, his companies invested a total of $23 million in the Global-Tech sweatshop near Hong Kong in Dongguan, China.

        "If Mr. Romney had spoken up, conditions at Global-Tech might be far better today. Sadly, in 2012, Global-Tech remains a brutal sweatshop, where workers are paid starvation wages of $1.00 an hour and have no rights," says the report.

        Global-Tech manufactures everything from small to mid-sized household appliances to cell phones, and employs over 4,000 workers, some of them un-paid teenage "interns." Those who aren't students are forced into working 11-hour days regularly, for wages less than 6 percent of American minimum wage. Overtime is forced on weekends, and those who don't show are fined more than they can afford, making it impossible to walk away, although the company states that any overtime is "voluntary."

        It was only this month that work shifts were cut by a half hour, from 8:00 am to 10:30 or 11:30 pm, according to the IGLHR. "Meaning the workers are now toiling daily 14 ½ to 15 ½ hour shifts. They are now at the factory 101 ½ to 108 ½ hours a week. The current obligatory working hours still exceed China’s legal limit on permissible overtime by 472 to 556 percent."

        Not even I expected Romney to let his entitled Lord-of-the-Manor freak flag fly as proudly as he did on Tuesday night ~ Charlie Pierce

        by AuroraDawn on Sun Oct 28, 2012 at 06:11:09 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  If he's mad about GITMO (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          so much more reason for him to go vote for Obama & a Dem congress, let him know Obama's not an emperor. GOTP congress refused to close GITMO but Obama tried to close it twice, GOTP refused. Tell him to vote a Dem congress so Obama can get it closed then follow up with the WH on that.
          Let him know the wrong SCOTUS & we'll be at war & torturing forever, with Obama and the right Liberal SCOTUS/congress we can close GITMO, torture & avoid more wars, Myth wants to stay longer obviously, as all his sabre rattling says.

          •  Exactly! The GOP would happily... (0+ / 0-)

            keep GITMO open forever. When Obama tried to bring some of the prisoners to maximum security prisons in the US, in an effort to start shutting GITMO down, who was it that stood in his way? The GOP (and some Blue Dog Dems). Romney has no desire to see GITMO close. He has no desire to end the war in Afghanistan. If he had his way, we would still be in Iraq! He wants us to enter yet another war - this time with Iran. That is the last thing we (or Iranian civilians) need.

            Not even I expected Romney to let his entitled Lord-of-the-Manor freak flag fly as proudly as he did on Tuesday night ~ Charlie Pierce

            by AuroraDawn on Mon Oct 29, 2012 at 06:12:26 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  my three words would be (0+ / 0-)


        A mom can only do so much.

        Really, I would just say that a lot of people wish they could vote, like convicted felons who have paid their debt to society, legal residents who aren't citizens, and the whole damned world that has to live with what we do. So, if he wants to piss that away and feel like doing the Superiority Dance, it is his choice. But he shouldn't expect his favorite meal on his birthday. ;-)

        George W. Bush: the worst Republican president SO FAR.

        by Chun Yang on Sun Oct 28, 2012 at 08:37:36 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  asdf (16+ / 0-)
    He disagrees with Obama on many issues...Drone Attacks, the closing of Guantanamo bay, Wall street connections, Patriot Act, etc....many of which I agree with him.
    So - by withholding a vote in a SWING STATE - he tacitly APPROVES of Romney's positions on these issues?

    Because that is what his SILENCE (by NOT voting) implies.


    Sadly, everything Communism said about itself was a lie. Even more sadly,, everything Communism said about Capitalism was the truth.

    by GayIthacan on Sun Oct 28, 2012 at 04:34:37 PM PDT

  •  I don't think he is to old (14+ / 0-)

    to be drafted for the romney wars .

    How does he feel about supporting you in your old age
    after romney co has screwed up Medical , Medicaid , Social Security , driven the dollar into the dirt , etc etc etc ?

    "Drop the name-calling." Meteor Blades 2/4/11

    by indycam on Sun Oct 28, 2012 at 04:34:50 PM PDT

  •  For all those issues your son cares about (13+ / 0-)

    which he cites as reasons to not vote for Obama, a President Romney would be much worse. So by not voting for Obama, he's helping to get elected someone who will make him much less happy. It's fine to be principled, but I'd remind your son that he will never, ever find a political candidate who meshes 100% with his own personal principles. Sometimes in life you have to make some reasonable compromises.

  •  I can understand his point of view.. (0+ / 0-)

    Voting for what you don't want will give you ownership of it.

  •  tell him: If you do not vote, you are fulfilling (13+ / 0-)

    someone else's plan.

    Show him this

  •  A Romney SCOTUS will take away EVERYTHING he (11+ / 0-)

    believes in.

    It's that simple.

    "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." --M. L. King "You can't fix stupid" --Ron White -6.00, -5.18

    by zenbassoon on Sun Oct 28, 2012 at 04:36:47 PM PDT

  •  He's not "making a point" by not voting. (16+ / 0-)

    His failure to vote accomplishes NOTHING. Zip. Zero. Nothing.

    But the consequence could mean a Romney administration that does everything he objects to in the Obama Administration and then some, plus Supreme Court appointments that will set women's rights and civil liberties back 50 years.

    His fit of pique against POTUS is the adult equivalent of a temper tantrum. If he really wants change, he should start with local, state, and Congressional races, where progressive coalitions can grow from the ground up. But when it comes to the 2012 Presidential candidates, there are only two choices: Obama or Romney.  Failing to choose Obama is tacit support for Romney.

    This is time for Mom guilt. Is he really going to pull a stupid stunt to no good end when that goes against everything you've taught him and every right you've fought for as a woman?  

    •  Bingo (5+ / 0-)

      Son is making a symbolic stand on something with real consequences.  His position is not a moral one.  Noam Chomsky says in a swing state he would vote for Obama:

      There are many opportunities to make more public, influential symbolic stands any day of the week.  

    •  yeah, tell him it's a temper tantrum (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      that's sure to convince him.

      I have a question for other here. What do you tell someone who says voting for a 3rd party candidate is "playing a long game"? I think that's a snarky reference to what some here have claimed is the strategy of the President. But if someone thinks allowing the Republicans to win will push the Democrats left for 2016, what do you say?

      •  Look how well it worked in 2000 (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Wee Mama, doroma, RomneydoubleTax

        Is Obama significantly to Gore's left?  And at what cost?

        Anyone in a swing state who would vote for a 3rd party candidate has not thought through the consequences of a Romney win.

        Numbers are like people . . . Torture them enough and they'll tell you anything.

        by Actuary4Change on Sun Oct 28, 2012 at 05:49:46 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  it can be argued that the 2008 candidate.... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          tardis10, RomneydoubleTax

          seemed to be more on the left than he's turned out to be. It's a convoluted argument, probably. See if this makes sense.

          Voting for 3rd party in 2000 helped elect Bush. 8 years of Bush helped us nominate someone who opposed the invasion of Iraq.

          No, I'm working too hard on this. I'd have to squint to believe that voting for Nader made the actual Democratic Party move left. The voters, maybe (as a reaction to Bush). The Party, no.

          So voting 3rd party will almost assuredly have no effect on who runs, who gets nominated and what a future Democratic President does, once in office.

  •  Talk with him about the 2000 election? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Sylv, Gator Keyfitz

    I voted for Gore in IN. It absolutely didn't matter.  But I regret it. There's nothing like the 2-term Bush presidency to focus one's attention on the fact that, in our system, there is always a choice between a better and worse candidate.  Why not support the better one? (And, don't get me wrong -- I'm a strong Obama supporter.)

  •  Making his point... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Vetwife, cai

    by not voting is not the right thing to do in my opinion, but everybody of course has the right not to vote.

    What I always say is if you are not voting you should not whine when your circumstances are not satisfying. And nothing will change in your favor if you don't make your voice heard!

    Maybe you could try to make him clear that in this whole process the things sadly are changing quite slow and a lot of damage has be done by the 8 bush years (and other of course). So much that their repair will take more than one good president...

    I wish you the best with you son!

  •  You could talk about Romney's foreign (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    policy gaffes, like talking about how Syria is Iran's route to the water.  

    Or Ryan's plan to Voucherize Medicare?

    © cai Visit to join the fight against global warming.

    by cai on Sun Oct 28, 2012 at 04:38:58 PM PDT

  •  Well, when he was 15, lots of people voted (7+ / 0-)

    for Nader because they didn't think there was any difference between Gore and Bush. Look how that turned out.

  •  Romney would be worse. (6+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Vetwife, cai, OldDragon, Sylv, Shahryar, askyron

    It's too close in VA to make a point.  

    If we had a runoff system where the top two made it to a final vote, would he vote for Obama over Romney in the final vote?

    He could vote for Obama and write a letter to the White House, copying the local paper.  

    Tell him you will fund a day standing outside the White House holding protest signs.

    There are many ways for him to make a point without increasing the chance of President Romney.

    Numbers are like people . . . Torture them enough and they'll tell you anything.

    by Actuary4Change on Sun Oct 28, 2012 at 04:39:05 PM PDT

  •  not voting at all is useless (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Keith930, OldDragon, tardis10

    your opinion just goes into the great void, never to be heard, never to be considered. You become the same as someone who never cared at all.

    It's better to vote 3rd party than to not vote at all. At least that way your son's dissatisfaction is counted. In a swing state it gets tricky, though. He'll have to weigh the pros and cons of helping the state go to Romney. A 3rd party vote might not matter, depending on how many people go that route.

    •  useless narcissism (9+ / 0-)

      nobody will recognize his "act of conscience", if that is what he thinks it is.

      Oregon:'s cold. But it's a damp cold.

      by Keith930 on Sun Oct 28, 2012 at 04:47:06 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  this really (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        cai, jenesq, Lost and Found, CoyoteMarti

        is the point. It is childish to imagine any candidate or politician will please you in all ways. That is not their job, and it is not how our country works.

        It is a childish tantrum to not vote because you disagree on a few points but the big picture is clear.

        It is selfish to behave in this manner and yes, narcissistic as hell.

        To hell with the elders who stand to have their medications cut. To hell with kids and their education. To hell with women who are raped. I didn't get everything I want so I'm staying home.

        •  I just think counting votes is important. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Catesby, tardis10

          the son in question doesn't merely disagree with the President on a few points. He sounds like one on the left who has been ignored. Frankly. that's part of the strategy. Play more to the middle and even right-center by ignoring the left, with the belief that the left has nowhere to go and will vote for the President through fear of Romney.

          It's a weak strategy, in my opinion, because it's not valid. The President will leak votes on the left. This young man will have to decide if he wants to be completely irrelevant (not voting) or whether he wants to make a statement (3rd party) or if he wants to prevent a Republican victory.

          Clearly, in my opinion, some sort of vote is better than no vote. It's up to him what message he wants to send, but he should at least send some message!

        •  yes..yes..and yes... (0+ / 0-)

          But of course, I can't say that to him...he is trying to figure it all out and be true to himself.  He has these conversations with me because...well...because he can.  I can think he is a narcissistic ass and still love him.  I think he also needs/wants to hear a better argument from me...which is why I came here.

          "Never separate the life you live from the words you speak." "Sometimes, the only realists are the dreamers." Paul Wellstone

          by mom2dems on Sun Oct 28, 2012 at 05:26:05 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  An election isn't just about who you vote for (0+ / 0-)

            Look at the right, many dispise Mitt, but vote for him enthusiastically.  Mitt isn't harmless.  I am willing to say those drones are killing  one millionth of the damage a pro coal administration could do to the world.

  •  Show him some VA POLLS (7+ / 0-)

    so he realize how close it is. Then show him this ad

  •  BTW, does he understand that CONGRESS (11+ / 0-)

    is blocking closure of Guantanemo Bay, not the President?  

    Does he think Romney would stop the drone attacks?  Hell, Romney will probably start an all-new war with Iran.

    Wall Street?  Like a Romney presidency would be less in the pocket of Wall Street?  lolololol

    Again, the only message he sends by not voting is the potential for a Romney victory, which sends the message that America wants what Romney's selling.  How exactly does that make a point about Obama not being progressive enough?  Jesus H. Christ!  

    •  I saw a speaker over the summer say that if you (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      OldDragon, Sylv, mom2dems, RomneydoubleTax

      think that you're going to hurt anybody's feelings by not voting for Obama, "white supremacy has a firm grip on your mind."

      I don't know if I'd go that far... but I do think some young and/or white voters expected more of President Obama than any other president... either because of the inspirational nature of the campaign or, yes, because he's black.

      A black man (or a woman) has to be twice as good.

      © cai Visit to join the fight against global warming.

      by cai on Sun Oct 28, 2012 at 04:53:08 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Thank you... (0+ / 0-)

      You really does GET it all ... he reads more than I do...but maybe stuff that is TOO much sometimes.  I just am not sure where he is coming from...baffles me.  Your points are very much what I was trying to say to him.  

      "Never separate the life you live from the words you speak." "Sometimes, the only realists are the dreamers." Paul Wellstone

      by mom2dems on Sun Oct 28, 2012 at 05:24:03 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  It's the direction of the country (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      Obama is defined in the mainstream press as a liberal.  Period.  Drone strikes?  War in Afghanistan?  Wall Street influence?  They've never heard of such.  If Obama loses, he will have been too liberal.  It will announce that a further march to the right is in order.  And who else will be kept from voting in the next election?  

      •  If we elect moderates like Obama (0+ / 0-)

        We increase our chances of getting more acceptable choices in later elections.  If Obama looses, then the right turn the country takes will be too strong to fight.

        Numbers are like people . . . Torture them enough and they'll tell you anything.

        by Actuary4Change on Sun Oct 28, 2012 at 05:54:26 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  If he can't see for himself that not voting (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    cai, parryander, mom2dems

    is almost immoral, if not coward (basically avoiding to make a decision of where he stands) in these elections, I would leave him alone and just think about your own way of approaching the election as a single issue voter.

    I have a son too and he has moments, where he is either so angry or depressed, that he could say something like not going to vote. I know those moments don't last long, thankfully, but they are in general caused by loss of hope.

    And on the other hand nothing gets my son more upset as people who vote on one issue only. I too think that is pretty dangerous. And I would think twice to make up my mind, which of the many issues you shouldn't trade in for the one you are voting on. For me there are many and to find the right balance of what is most, more, or less important is a bit difficult at times. But it needs to be done.

    Just saying ... from one mom to the other.

  •  Nobody will hear his 'point' (11+ / 0-)

    This idea that withholding a vote from a candidate you see as imperfect, even when the other candidate is far worse on the issues over which you're withholding your vote, will somehow make a point to everyone that you aren't happy is false.  You vote for the best candidate available, and in doing so shift the policies of the government in your direction.  If you fail to vote, you are not doing this - you are allowing others (those pragmatic sell-outs!) to push the government in their direction.  We've already seen the ultimate consequence of protest voting - does he not remember Florida 2000?  Did anyone care about why the Nader voters were voting for Nader, and did those Nader voters who ultimately threw the election to Bush as the price for their purity actually do anything to move the nation even more leftward than those who voted for Gore? They ironically forced all of us into that horrible era of backward, right-wing governing.  I would think anyone who chews on that unhappy truth will not like how it tastes.

    •  Iran can be the next Iraq. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      with Gore we would not have had the war in Iraq. With Obama we can avoid a war with Iran. Romney on the other hand appears gun-ho to "bomb-bomb-bomb, bomb-bomb Iran", just like McCain was.

      Seriously, ask him about the Iraq war, and if he thinks a Democratic Administration would have lied us into war. Please. Killing a million Iraqis (through the hunger and illness that increased from the war and by actual straight up violence) is a BFD.

      Gay rights... here in the US, but also abroad. Romney and his ilk support things like the Uganda kill the gays bill, while Obama's State Department lobbied against the bill and helped keep it from passing. State Dept has made several moves to promote the human rights of LGBT people abroad.

      Global warming and climate change. Obama believes in it and will try to make progress in large part by moving us towards renewable sources of energy. Romney doesn't give a shit.

  •  Tell him: Silence equals consent (8+ / 0-)

    He may not be able to vote for who he wants, but if he doesn't vote, he implicitly agrees to whoever wins.

    Voting for the lesser of two evils is called adulthood.

  •  You could have him read the current (6+ / 0-)

    FP diary which in part talks to the murders of three young men who only wanted to help other citizens exercise that right. A right for which a lot of blood was spilled so that people like me can vote. You could remind him that it took a constitutional amendment to allow his own mother (and me) to vote. I don't mean to sound harsh. But he's literally telling all those people who had to fight for the right to vote, "so what"

    We view "The Handmaid's Tale" as cautionary. The GOP views it as an instruction book. @PortiaMcGonagal on Twitter

    by Vita Brevis on Sun Oct 28, 2012 at 04:49:00 PM PDT

  •  I've always seen a refusal to vote, or a vote (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    BlueZ, mom2dems, distraught, CoyoteMarti

    (in a swing state) for a candidate who has no earthly chance of winning, as being essentially half a vote for EACH candidate.

    As in, if you don't vote, you have effectively cast 0.5 votes for Obama and 0.5 votes for Romney.  

    Not voting is still voting.  You're only pretending to be morally pure.

    Now, if your son actually believes the two are equivalent, then not voting might make sense.  If he doesn't, well, he should make a choice.

    But if this is his choice and he's made it, it may just be for the best to say, "I hope you'll change your mind," and then change the subject.

    © cai Visit to join the fight against global warming.

    by cai on Sun Oct 28, 2012 at 04:50:49 PM PDT

    •  I'd go further with specifics... (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      cai, mom2dems, CoyoteMarti

      It means you're saying that....

      a.  Scalia is equivalent to Kagen on the Supreme Court
      b.  Tax cuts for the rich are the same as tax relief for the middle class
      c.  Getting into a ground war is the same as peace
      d.  Self-deportation is the same as a rational attempt at dealing with immigration reform
      e.  Having Obamacare is the same as nothing

      and so on....

      If those equivalencies are true in his mind, by all means don't vote.  If he believes that they are not the same, vote for the side he believes in, which ever it is.

      •  Well, others have covered that. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        My point was about busting the myth of personal purity.  

        Someone who is withholding a vote out of protest may be doing it so it will be noticed as disapproval.  It might, but no one will interpret it as saying "move to the left," as another commenter says below.

        Or, someone withholding a vote out of protest may simply be most concerned with their own conscience and being morally upright in what they do.  

        In which case, I think it's important to point out that the mathematical effect of not voting is one half vote for EACH.  Which means you haven't avoided sullying yourself, you've just tied yourself to the victory of either candidate.

        You can't get out of your citizenship responsibility so easily.  

        © cai Visit to join the fight against global warming.

        by cai on Sun Oct 28, 2012 at 05:11:20 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Thank you...just what I need. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        "Never separate the life you live from the words you speak." "Sometimes, the only realists are the dreamers." Paul Wellstone

        by mom2dems on Sun Oct 28, 2012 at 05:35:14 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Not strictly true (0+ / 0-)

      your vote is divided among all candidates by percentage.  OK, that comes out to 49.98 R and 49.98 D

  •  For what it's worth (0+ / 0-)

    I would talk about the fact that we in the US have the right to vote--and not to vote, of course--in a world where others are fighting and dying for that same right, to say nothing of the US soldiers who have died trying to ensure that others around the globe have the possibility of voting.

    It's simple for us in the US to say we don't like the candidates or what they stand for and not to vote.  I'm entirely sympathetic to that position and, although I hesitate to say it in this forum, I am not enthusiastic about voting Obama.  

    But to my mind not voting is not an option.   When so few people are able to vote in even a flawed democracy corrupted by money and those who would disenfranchise those who are not among the 1%, not voting is arrogant and elitist.

    And in this instance it is positively dangerous for the poor, for women, for those without access to a good education . . . for scores of people and for hosts of reasons.

    But I fear that my reasoning won't be particularly effective against the type of idealism and cynicism you're encountering.

    In which case, I think Addison's suggestion of a vote trade is excellent.

  •  Does he feel the same (0+ / 0-)

    way about all of the down ticket  races? What about local issues? Even if he leaves the box for president blank, his vote is still needed for other races.

  •  It doesn't sound like issues are going to work (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    cai, OldDragon, Sylv, mom2dems, Catesby

    with him.  He probably already has at least some familiarity with a variety of them, since he's mocking you for focusing mainly on women's rights.

    My suggestion is this:  Tell him that the media and the parties always insist on interpreting disapproval as coming from the right, the more conservative.  Every loss in an election is portrayed as due to the loser not being conservative enough.  Call to his mind how, when Obama and other Democrats won in 2008, pundits and party leaders were all over the place insisting that the GOP losses were because they were insufficiently conservative, and that they needed to get more conservative.  And he can take a look at exactly what's happened since - the GOP got more conservative, drummed out the few of their moderate voices that yet remained, put up an absolute clown car show of primary candidates, the most extreme of whom will be back in four years...

    In other words, the message he thinks he is sending by not voting will be willfully misinterpreted.  He is disapproving of Obama from the left, but it'll be taken as from the right.  (I've disapproved of Obama at times over the last four years, but I would never have expressed that to any pollster because I always knew that the criticism would be interpreted as being that Obama isn't conservative enough.)

  •  Thank you all... (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mimi, cai, Grandma Susie, CoyoteMarti

    A lot to process...and plan to email him later tonight.  THANK You all so much.  I do see myself as a "single issue" voter, but women's right's cover so many, health care, choice, gay rights, education...I don't really see it as a SINGLE ISSUE...more as a over view.

    You all bring so many SMART points...and I will process and send him an email and talk to him later.  I think I made a dent during our conversation with many points that were brought up here...but now I feel I can firm up the points and be more concise!  You guys are the best.

    Thanks from a mom in VA.

    "Never separate the life you live from the words you speak." "Sometimes, the only realists are the dreamers." Paul Wellstone

    by mom2dems on Sun Oct 28, 2012 at 04:59:31 PM PDT

    •  ah, I just made a mean comment about (0+ / 0-)

      you not responding. Thanks for proving me wrong. Trust your son.

      •  school teacher life... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        And I am right now finishing some grading which was delayed by the conversion with my son tonight...over an hour on the phone with him after being at a conference all weekend...AND then canvassing for Obama/Kaine this afternoon...and I have a 12 year old daughter who I need to try to spend some time with.  Lucky for us, Sandy has cancelled school tomorrow for all of time with daughter and time to write letter to son.  ;)

        Thanks for the other response...just didn't want you personally to think I wasn't not constantly on my computer with everything else going on.

        "Never separate the life you live from the words you speak." "Sometimes, the only realists are the dreamers." Paul Wellstone

        by mom2dems on Sun Oct 28, 2012 at 05:21:59 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Oh, I just had an anxiety attack, we might (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          have had a "newphewed" diary, so I was a jerk to prematurely think that way and even say something in that regard. I am so sorry for it.

          Oh, and for the telephone conversations with your son, I can soooo  relate. Mine was living in Hawaii so we got in the most heated and exhausting discussions you can imagine, for hours with a time difference of 6 hours. When he needed to talk, I needed to sleep ... and guess who didn't sleep ? Now I am lucky, he is here with me and though the discussions still gets heated, at least they are happening in concurrence with my biological clock. And having to work hard is a good excuse to evade the discussions and take a hike, if it gets too much...:)

          Again I am very sorry for having made this comment especially because I myself during the week also can't respond to other people's comments on time. It's a nuisance for other people, but like you I can't avoid it often. So, I am double jerk not thinking about it that way.

          Now, do we have to go to work tomorrow morning? I mean, I guess I have to no matter what the storm is going to be. Let's hope it's less powerful as people predict it to be.

    •  Men's issues are not seen as single issue (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      they're just seen as issues.

    •  Just send him a link to the diary! (0+ / 0-)

      Let him read what his fellow liberals think firsthand.

  •  I went through the same thing (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    cai, Sylv, Grandma Susie, CoyoteMarti

    With my sister Gen.  In fact, I even wrote a Diary on it and how she has now changed her mind and will be voting for President Obama.  Good luck on getting your son to change his mind.

    By the way, my sister lives in Nevada.

    Never be afraid to voice your opinion and fight for it . Corporations aren't people, they're Republicans (Rev Al Sharpton 10/7/2011)

    by Rosalie907 on Sun Oct 28, 2012 at 04:59:40 PM PDT

  •  it seems mom2dems isn't that concerned (1+ / 2-)
    Recommended by:
    Hidden by:
    Grandma Susie, CoyoteMarti

    about it ... she doesn't respond much to the many comments.  

  •  Your son is self-indulgent and has no regard for (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mimi, cai, jenesq

    the impact of his decisions on those less fortunate than he.

    It's nice to be a middle class person with the luxury of knowing that you'll be ok no matter who wins (one hopes!).  But others, including minorities, don't have that luxury.

    Your son will hurt many other people by aiding and abetting Romney.

    Among other things, out of solidarity with the powerless people in society, I will stand with Obama.

    •  yep. right on. /nt (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
    •  A little harsh. I'd say stubborn (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      more than self-indulgent. He seems dead-set on making a point, even if that means voting against his own self interests, so to say that's self-indulgent may not be the proper term.

      Because the fact is that he's probably NOT taking his own interests into consideration.

      He's stubborn. He wants to wants to sick by his principles, even if that comes back to bite him in the ass.

      •  yup...right on... (0+ / 0-)

        bite me...his sister...his wife in the ass....whoops...there is my single issue voting again.

        he's smart...but thinks too highly of himself sometimes :).  

        "Never separate the life you live from the words you speak." "Sometimes, the only realists are the dreamers." Paul Wellstone

        by mom2dems on Sun Oct 28, 2012 at 05:31:24 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I have a 27 yo, I know how they can be. . . (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jenesq, cai, Sylv, distraught

    Maybe this:   I can't remember if it was Truman or Johnson, but it was over civil rights, and the Pres told proponents, "I agree.  Now make me do it."  With Obama, there is at least a chance of a groundswell of public opinion rising and "making" him do something.  If there had not been an emerging consensus on marriage equality, do you think Obama or Biden would have come out in support of it?  Same thing with Guantanamo Bay.  If there is a groundswell of support for closing, it will force congress to do it--Obama already wants to.  With Romney, there will never be a chance to pressure him into supporting gay rights, women's rights, or closing guantanamo and/or ending drone wars.  He doesn't give a dam.

    Also, do you have a mutual friend who is gay or lesbian?  Maybe they can appeal to him on how much it will mean for them to be accepted by society with the same benefits the society affords heterosexuals.

    Good luck.  I know my son is for Obama, I'm just unsure if he registered to vote!

  •  I have to admit I read your diary as mostly (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    a way to list a bunch of anti-Obama arguments in "help me" disguise, but I'm going to assume I'm wrong on that score.

    Consider the possibility -- although 27 seems a bit old for this -- that he is finally rebelling against your imposing your political beliefs on him. Could it be that someone who defines herself (on this site, at least) as the mother of Democrats may have overstressed this part of their development? It's great that you passed on your values, but presumably you also value their rights to make up their own minds.

    I'd just say "Do what you think is right. You'll have to live with the consequences a lot longer than I will." (Beef it up if there's any chance you won't have tons and tons of bucks for your later years and nursing home care -- guess who will need to pony up if you don't, once Medicaid is gutted by Romney?) Then I wouldn't let him distract me anymore from wider and more productive GOTV efforts, unless he has specific questions you can answer. The campaign websites have plenty of information for him -- let him do the work. It's long past time.

    •  Thanks... (0+ / 0-)

      don't act like you know me...   :)
      Thanks for framing things a bit better for me...

      "Never separate the life you live from the words you speak." "Sometimes, the only realists are the dreamers." Paul Wellstone

      by mom2dems on Sun Oct 28, 2012 at 05:28:16 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  He is too young to remember Jim Crow (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jenesq, a2nite, cai, CoyoteMarti

    He is too young to remember the fight along side Gloria
    Steinem.  He is too young to know what it is like to suffer in silence on white men controlling everything.
    Show him this and remind him...If he were in big deal but VA...waaaay too important.
    I am white.   I am ashamed to put a racist in the WH by not voting.

    We the People have to make a difference and the Change.....Just do it ! Be part of helping us build a veteran community online. United Veterans of America

    by Vetwife on Sun Oct 28, 2012 at 05:12:01 PM PDT

  •  Give up (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Kevvboy, cai

    You tried enough.  Go find somebody else to convince to vote.

    Republicans: Taking the country back ... to the 19th century

    by yet another liberal on Sun Oct 28, 2012 at 05:15:27 PM PDT

  •  people have to make their own mistakes (0+ / 0-)

    but I like this analogy:

    You are in prison, and there is only one meal available. You have a choice between overcooked, soggy lasagna with pickles in it or feces encrusted salmon with shards of glass in it. If you don't choose-- the guards will choose for you (and make you eat it).
    Do you really want to make a point against foul lasagna so badly that you'd be willing to eat shit to make it?

    If he still refuses to vote, he might just be a stubborn fuck and there's not much you can do. But ultimately your relationship with him has to be able to survive different administrations, so keep priorities straight.

    I can't believe our election is being decided by people who can't tell the difference between republicans and democrats...that's like letting a dog choose what color to paint your house.

    by PBJ Diddy on Sun Oct 28, 2012 at 05:19:03 PM PDT

  •  I won't vote in a manner that will hurt my (0+ / 0-)

    interests. I wi be voting on November 6th but may selectively punch the ballot. Any name that I do punch will have a D next to it. Warren will have my vote.

    •  What about others' interests? (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      cai, CoyoteMarti, pinetrekker

      The poor?  The working class?  Women?  GLBT? Minorities?  Immigrants?

      Honestly, it's great to be in a place where you have the luxury to "vote selectively" or "make a point."  That worked out great for everyone in 2000, didn't it?  I mean, aside from all the people who died in the Iraq War and stuff.

      •  Actually, if you live in a true blue state (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        you do have the luxury of voting your conscience without risking the election.

        There are lots of candidates for President that have great agendas.

        The same goes for Red States.  You could vote for the Yoda Party and it wouldn't make a difference.  In most of the country an individual vote means squat.  So you can vote how you like.

        But in a swing state, like where I used to live in Florida?  Or in this case Virginia?  Well that's where the rubber meets the road and you have a very narrow choice.

        And it's not fair that a certain number of our citizens have such an undue burden.

        This is why I think a direct vote for President is important.  It makes everything count.

  •  You can't always get what you want (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    cai, mom2dems, jan4insight

    Remember that Stones song?

    IMHO your son is being:

    a) Very stubborn
    b) A little childish
    c) He's using all-or-nothing distorted thinking

    We will never -- ever, ever -- get everything that we want in this life. That's a fact. And NO President can please everyone all the time. That is also a fact.

    To even expect to get everything you want, with no give and take, is ignorant and childish.

    BUT...if your son is smart (and he seems to be from what you've described), he will choose between the lesser of two evils (for lack of a better way to put it terms he might relate to).

    It's better to get at least some of the things you want, then to be foolish and make it an all or nothing deal.

    Life is also full of grey areas...
    if politics were all or nothing, we'd get even less done than what we do now.

  •  Of course he should vote for Obama... (5+ / 0-)

    One argument I use is that if I strongly support a candidate, I will not only vote for him/her, I will give money, canvass, phone-bank, write letters to the editor put up a lawn sign and bumper sticker and do everything I can to actively promote his/her candidacy.  Where I am not so enthusiastic about a candidate, I will do less or none of the above, but I will ALWAYS vote for the lesser evil.  It really makes a difference.  Maybe your son can understand that by not actively working for Obama he is making his ethical statement, but by not voting for him he is enabling something much worse, almost unthinkable - Mitt Romney.

    "There have been tyrants and murderers and for a time they seem invincible but in the end they always fail. Always." -Gandhi

    by Grandma Susie on Sun Oct 28, 2012 at 05:20:26 PM PDT

  •  Tell him (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TFinSF, jan4insight

    "Son, I didn't raise you that way and I'm disappointed, but I'm going to spend my time persuading someone more intelligent and persuadable not to throw away his vote."

    Then go do just that.  If you get two people to the polls, you have canceled out his nonvote +1.

    Still enjoying my stimulus package.

    by Kevvboy on Sun Oct 28, 2012 at 05:21:25 PM PDT

  •  Perhaps this will help (0+ / 0-)

    "The problems of incompetent, corrupt, corporatist government are incompetence, corruption and corporatism, not government." Jerome a Paris

    by Orinoco on Sun Oct 28, 2012 at 05:21:36 PM PDT

  •  PS May I please add (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TFinSF, cai, jan4insight, pinetrekker

    how dare he MOCK you (your words) for being out canvassing about the candidate you care about?

    He mouths opinions but doesn't have the courage to do anything but mock?  Sad.

    Still enjoying my stimulus package.

    by Kevvboy on Sun Oct 28, 2012 at 05:23:10 PM PDT

  •  Tell him you'll write him out of your will (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    Worked with my son

  •  His daughter (6+ / 0-)

    I am the father of a 15 month little girl. Years from now I want to be able to tell her that when given the choice I voted to protect her reproductive rights at every opportunity.

    Ask your son how he plans to tell his future daughter that despite the clear, explicit indications that reproductive rights are on the ballot this year, he chose not to vote.  With full express notice of what is at stake, he abdicated.

    To paraphrase President Bartlett, decisions are made by the people in the room; the people who show up. The people who vote.

    If he doesn't vote, he had better pray he has son(s).

  •  I think you can tell him (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Grandma Susie, CoyoteMarti

    that when he was too young to vote, Al Gore lost the election by 537 votes.  All because of people that "to be true to their principles" didn't vote, or voted for Ralph Nader. They thought Gore was too centrist, he supported welfare reform, after all.  They were pissed off that he was too "wooden" during the debates, or sighed too much. He either should be punished along with all Dems for the shame Clinton supposedly inflicted on the country, or oppositely, he didn't support Clinton enough and make him a big part of his campaign.

    As a result, we got George Bush, and the Iraq War. Four thousand US soldiers killed, and more than 100 thousand Iraqis.  Since Gore was very familiar with Osama bin Laden, and wouldn't have ignored the report "bin Laden determined to attack in the US", I can say with a straight face that if Bush hadn't been elected, 9/11 might not even have happened. And, oh yeah, we also had the worst economic collapse in 8 decades, with 9 million people thrown out of work.  And we got a Supreme Court that produced the obscenity that is the Citizens United decision - an endless fountain of corruption that is destroying the country. The latest fallout is the fact that employers can now legally threaten their employees if they don't vote the way they want them to.

    Romney is completely ignorant of foreign policy (so says a very knowledgeable judge who has had to learn his own hard lessons, Colin Powell). He is also one of the most spineless candidates in recent history. These two are a very dangerous combination. Most of Romney's foreign policy advisers are George Bush retreads, and they want very badly to go to war with Iran. They will be able to convince him, I have no doubt.  This war will make Iraq look like a picnic, and it is not completely crazy that if things go badly enough, your son could end up getting drafted, or if not him, people not a lot younger than him.  

    Obama has at least administratively forbidden torture.  Romney will bring it back.

     Romney's Supreme Court picks will end safe access to abortion, at the cost of thousands of additional deaths of women.

    I can guarantee that your son will regret his decision when he gets older, if he doesn't vote. He will look back at how naive he was.  We've already lived through a disaster helped along by people who thought exactly like he does now. We don't need another one.

    "The only thing we have to fear - is fear itself." - Franklin Delano Roosevelt

    by orrg1 on Sun Oct 28, 2012 at 05:44:17 PM PDT

    •  You can also tell him (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Grandma Susie, jan4insight

      that I lived in Broward County at the time.  I was in the middle of arranging a move to Australia.  I also could not conceive that Gore would not win.

      I didn't vote.  I left the country 2 days after the election with everything in turmoil.

      Of course, it didn't affect me for the three years I was in Australia.  But it did affect my family and friends - and of course me when I came back to the States.

      Tell him of the guilt I feel to this day.

      Tell him if he wants to vote his conscience, and that doesn't lead him to one of the Corporate Two, then he needs to move to a non-swing state where his vote doesn't matter.

  •  Does he understand that women's rights are also (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    men's rights? Because they are.

    He disagrees with Obama on many issues...Drone Attacks, the closing of Guantanamo bay, Wall street connections, Patriot Act, etc....many of which I agree with him.
    What do you mean, he disagrees with Obama on the closing of Gitmo?
    Obama tried to close it, Congress stopped him.
    The idiots prolonged the "war on terror" when they did that, too.

    I was taught that in America we have rights and responsibilities. Adults have a responsibility to vote and protect their vote.
    If they don't, they're not adults.

    It's possible he's avoiding discussing the issue because you're too strident. It's possible he'll vote and just not tell  you. Our civic responsibility doesn't happen in a vacuum. It happens in a social context. Ultimately it's about power, and young people have a strong motivation to claim their identity as individuals.
    However, if he fails to vote out of petulance because someone hasn't provided the pony he requested, then he's not an adult.

    You can't make this stuff up.

    by David54 on Sun Oct 28, 2012 at 05:48:28 PM PDT

    •  I think his point is that Bush opened up (0+ / 0-)

      many prisons all over the world.  He came up with new regulations for the treatment of prisoners.

      The Constitution speaks only to the behavior of the Federal Government.  Wherever.  Whenever.

      The Federal Government is just as constrained at GB as it is in NYC.

      It matters not whether GB is closed.  It matters that our own government recognizes its own Constitutional restriction.

  •  Trayvon Martin & Hurricane Katrina; can't see (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Grandma Susie

    Rmoney responding in a favorable manner. Forget condoms & birth control, maybe your son does NOT want to become a Daddy until he's ready. Need money for college, forget it, also health insurance, forget that too. Gay friends will be persecuted openly. Want a decent job, forget that.

    My nephew is having similar concerns, my sister got saved with "help for homeowners"; she's voting for Obama. We all are; well I already voted.

    The radical Republican party is the party of oppression, fear, loathing and above all more money and power for the people who robbed us.

    by a2nite on Sun Oct 28, 2012 at 05:51:19 PM PDT

  •  He's 27? Try Supreme Court justices, Planned (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    Parenthood, DADT, green jobs, a more stable world with a guy not interested in shock and awe.

    Tell him someone in Alaska told you to pass this on.

    •  reinforce this comments! (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      CoyoteMarti, akmk

      My son is a man who lives around the corner from Planned Parenthood and trips the protestors with his dogs' leashes when he passes...calls the police when the protestors park illegally...he problem is the the is TOO interested maybe.  He feels so strongly on so many issues...many that Obama agrees with (but not as strongly as him) and many that Obama has "failed him".

      Believe me, I used the Supreme Court Justice argument tonight a LOT...but will continue and add the Alaska bit for reinforcement!

      "Never separate the life you live from the words you speak." "Sometimes, the only realists are the dreamers." Paul Wellstone

      by mom2dems on Sun Oct 28, 2012 at 06:28:19 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Obama can't fix everything (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    no president could, even if they were as liberal as we'd like.

    However, Mitt the $hit (pardon me, I'm from Massachusetts) will CERTAINLY make things worse, and must be avoided.

  •  Sorry but no cop out allowed. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    dotalbon, mom2dems

    Voting is a civic duty.

    Your son has a choice, be heard or be ignored.  And forever give up your right to complain about anything.  

    Oh, and by the way, don't come begging at the public troth, when you haven't contributed to who controls the flow.

  •  Let's talk dollars and sense. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Grandma Susie

    Tell him that his inheritance is gone if no Medicare or reduced SS. When all your assets are gone, it will be his responsibility to provide for you. Bottom line, this group wants the elimination of social net for everyone including the elderly. They are determined to abolish and they will not rest until done. The money in this country has given Romney and Ryan their orders. This fight is now engaged and those of your son's age need to understand that the economics of the monied. He will be the one holding the bag for your and his care and it isn't getting any cheaper. I tell others to think and think hard. It is your future as the money people are only interested in their futures and not yours. Tell him not to sell his and your futures for a lousy 40 pieces of silver to these ideologues.

  •  You vote because it's your DUTY, dammit (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jan4insight, pinetrekker

    People around the world have DIED for the right to vote.  How incredibly jaded do you have to be to take it for granted?

    This lazy approach to politics drives me nuts.  At least right-wingers who crawl to the polls to cast their GOP ballots are invested in the process, not sitting at home feeling smugly superior.  

    I can't understand why people are frightened of new ideas. I'm frightened of the old ones. (John Cage)

    by dotalbon on Sun Oct 28, 2012 at 06:31:10 PM PDT

    •  I lived in a country where voting was (0+ / 0-)


      Seriously, you are fined if you do not vote.

      I was against that because a non-vote is still a vote that  people should be free to make.

      If your choice was between Romney and Rove, who would you choose?

  •  Some people play the short game (0+ / 0-)

    some people play the long game.

  •  All it takes for evil to succeed is for good men (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Grandma Susie

    to stand by and do nothing.

  •  Without Ralph Nader in 2000 (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Grandma Susie, jan4insight

    No George W. Bush

    no Iraq War

    No huge tax cuts for the wealthy

    Surplus, not deficit

    Focus n Osama Bin Laden and threats from him, instead of focus on Iraq and its oil.

    No unfunded drug program with a doughnut hole

    Drug program would allow negotiation of pricing

    Better US standing in the world

    Thousands fewer dead Americans in Iraq

    Yes, it matters. Florida was "won" by fewer than 600 votes.

    Done with politics for the night? Have a nice glass of wine with Palate Press: The online wine magazine.

    by dhonig on Sun Oct 28, 2012 at 06:50:35 PM PDT

  •  This may be the most important election of his (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Catesby, Grandma Susie, CoyoteMarti

    lifetime.  He is young and idealistic-- I get that.  But the perfect politician does not exist, and our government only works through compromise.  Compromise is how Democracy was designed to work.

    I know for a fact, that there are things Obama would like to do that he could not do in his first term because there are too many idiot Republicans in Congress.

    Have him watch Colin Powell's endorsement, beginning to end, the full version which takes about 8 or 10 minutes of his time:

    Ask him to think about these things:

    -- If Obamacare is overturned, people will die.  Presidents have talked about healthcare reform for most of my life, and none have achieved it until now.  I'm a cancer survivor, and I can tell you-- before Obamacare having a preexisting condition is terrifying.  The loss of a job can mean the end of your life.  For this reason alone, your son must set his disappointments aside for now.  I have my disappointments with Obama, too, but I know that the Republicans will not let Obamacare stand, and we must preserve it.

    -- The Supreme Court. Never in my life did I think that "conservative" Justices would give us Citizens United.  What a catastrophy for this country.  Your son will have to live most of his life with the horrible justices Bush appointed and the next President will have the chance to appoint more.  There is way too much at stake, including Roe v. Wade.

    --We must bring back Glass-Steagall.  Only with Democrats in charge can we get this done.  And Obama will have Elizabeth Warren in the Senate!  We need more reforms or there will be more economic crashes.

    --Speaking of the Senate, what if the Republicans do get a majority and Romney is in the White House.  That could really change your  son's life.

    -- The Republican Party is behaving in an almost criminal manner.  This isn't just about Obama, it is about how the Republicans try to undermine the government whenever there is a Democrat in the White House.  This has become standard operating procedure, along with preventing Democrats from voting.  We can't continue to let them get away with it.

    --Republican economics is a failure, and they are convincing people that it is Obama's fault.  Now that the economy is starting to recover, they want Romney in place so that he can take credit.  Time for Americans to understand that they are being snowed on the economy--- enough of this trickle-down!  It does not work!

  •  I call what your son has PSWM Syndrome. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    I know I'm making some assumptions here but most people I know who take the position your son is taking are privileged straight white males who are blissfully unaware of how very privileged they are because they've never experienced life without it.

    In short, his "making a statement,' his refusal to in any way compromise his beliefs, are luxuries that he can afford. Given the Supreme Court justices that Romney would probably appoint (And have you brought up SCOTA with him, the fact that the next president will probably appoint several justices and that a radical right-wing court will most likely uphold many of the practices he finds so abhorrent and will most likely overturn progressive legislation for decades to come? Does he realize how crippling this would be and how long it would last--until he is well into middle age?) that Roe v Wade would be overturned and women miight even be refused abortion even if their health is at stake so this election could be a life and death issue for some women?

    For immigrants, for many who were brought here as children without documentation, this election may determine whether they get to stay in this country at all.

    For LGBTs, this election could mean reinstatement of Don't Ask/Don't Tell and the perpetuation of DOMA and maybe even an amendment to enshrine marriage inequality and discrimination against LGBTs in the constitution (Is this the kind of statement he wants to make--that this is ok, that LGBTs are third class citizens?)

    For people with pre-existing conditions, for the disabled, for the elderly, this election could determine whether they have access to healthcare and/or whether they will be driven to bankruptcy. With the cuts Romney wants to make to medicaid, the very ability for poor elderly to have access to decent nursing home care could be at stake. Again these are life and death issues (but not for your son--this is how privilege works).

    For families, cuts in food stamps and WIC programs could make the difference whether their children go to bed hungry or not. (But again for your son, these are not issues--this is how privilege works).

    Then there's the denial by the Republicans about climate change. (Does you son want to reward their denial, their refusal to take any action to save the planet--this is one instance where his interests are directly at stake--privilege won't shield him from ecological disaster)

    And then there's the economic disaster that the Romney/Ryan austerity plans will bring about (They make Hoover look like a Keynesian in comparison) Unless he has a Tagg Romeny style trust fund, he's not got enough privilege to escape unscathed.

    I could go on and on. But I would call him on his Privileged Straight White Male Syndrome. I wouldn't go easy on him. He needs some "tough love" He needs to see that he has a responsibilty to others less privileged than his is. For them, "taking a stand," "making a statement," refusing to compromise are luxuries that they can't afford. This election could be life and death.


  •  You don't whether or not he has children, (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    but there's always this:

  •  Try This. "They" WANT you Not to vote (0+ / 0-)

    By not voting you are allowing politicians to ignore you and your demographic.  You are letting others decide your future.  You are letting the Big Money interests decide by not voting.

    Our Dime: Understanding the Federal Budget

    by Dustin Mineau on Sun Oct 28, 2012 at 08:50:31 PM PDT

  •  How about KAINE over idiot ALLEN, US Senate-Matter (0+ / 0-)

    It is absurd that he lives in VA where women's rights are under assault and he is not concerned. The SENATE and House races as well as other ballot issues matter to everyone.
    KAINE is an important VOTE.

    An EGG is not a person, A corporation is not a person!

    by CarmanK on Sun Oct 28, 2012 at 08:59:58 PM PDT

  •  If he is too ignoratn to vote... (0+ / 0-)

    then it's better he doesn't.

    Sorry, but it's true.

    Your son is young. he is one of those who wants everything NOW and doesn't understand that change takes time. I'm 57. I've lived through the assassination of JFK, MLK and RFK. You think MY hopes and dreams haven't been dashed? Of course they have! But did I give up? NO

    A THOUSAND TIMES NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    You can tell your son for me that he may THINK he is a liberal but he is not. A liberal works to make change happen. And that means voting for the best hope you have at the time, even if it isn't perfect. Drones? Wall street? Guantanamo? Seriously?

    How about supporting a woman's right to choose? How about health care for millions of Americans who didn't have it before? How about bringing troops home from the botched bullshit that was the Iraq war? How about ending DADT? Does he think that would have happened under Mcain? Or Romney?

    You can tell your son for me that he doesn't need US to give him web sites to surf, or anything else. We're not going to do his goddamn homework for him. Tell him to get off his sorry ass and do it for himself. Tell him for ME that I am disappointed that he is such a lazy SOB that h, as a supposed intelligent human being, prefers to take to the fainting couch instead of getting out to make things change for the better.

    Harsh? You betcha!

    And if you (or he) think I am being unfair, email me. I'll take anyone on who is too friggin lazy or ignorant (ignorant does not means stupid, BTW) to "get it".

    I'm 57. Been there, done that. And I'm sick of liberals who whine and can't seem to find their backbone with two hands and a flashlight (and a book on anatomy).

    Isn’t it ironic to think that man might determine his own future by something so seemingly trivial as the choice of an insect spray. ~ Rachel Carson, Silent Spring ~

    by MA Liberal on Sun Oct 28, 2012 at 09:01:58 PM PDT

  •  Not casting a vote for president or (0+ / 0-)

    not voting at all?

    A coworker said she wasn't going to bother voting because she didn't really like either Obama or Romney.  So I reminded her of the other issues that are a lot closer to home that are also on the ballot: school bonds (she has 2 children in the public school system), Metro(public transit) referendum, congressman, senator, state rep, etc.

    Here in Texas we have early voting, and in Harris County there are lots of polling places open during that period, so as long as someone is registered, there is little excuse not to vote at all.

    Please remind him that there is more to this election cycle than just the Presidential race if he is planning not to vote at all.

  •  he can make his point as i did (0+ / 0-)

    by not volunteering or giving money or getting others to vote for obama. but if he considers himself a progressive and wants our world to get better, if he's in a swing state, when he gets to the voting booth, it'll only be him and his conscience, and he sounds intelligent enough to understand that his nonvote will hurt obama. he needs to think about what sort of world he wants for the next 4 years. as others have said, romney will be worse on literally every single issue he's angry about obama on, and unlike romney, there is still ability to convince obama to get more progressive in his second term. romney will be a wash for that. tell him by withholding his vote, he's shirking his duty as a citizen, and someone committed to making the world better and you hope he steps up. a vote trade with a safe state voter for stein or johnson seems a good compromise

    It is not upon you to finish the Work, but neither shall you, O child of freedom, refrain from it.

    by DoGooderLawyer on Sun Oct 28, 2012 at 10:12:34 PM PDT

  •  Make sure you get him to vote for Obama! (0+ / 0-)

    Tell him you demand him to vote. It is imperative. I know this sounds cynical but I would say "If you don't vote for Obama and Romney wins, I'll never speak to you again." It's harsh but this election is that important. You have to do whatever it takes for him to vote for Obama.

  •  Daniel Ellsberg makes a very persuasive point (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    about voting in this election:

    May I suggest sending your son the following link?

    Drive fast -- take chances.

    by subav8r on Mon Oct 29, 2012 at 07:04:55 AM PDT

  •  Moving left. (0+ / 0-)

    Remind him that the only way we're going to get a decent progressive candidate is to elect Democrats over and over. Politics will not move left until we do. Heck, if Mitt wins it may very well be a rematch in 2016, does he want that?

    I demand the government respect my 18th amendment rights!

    by Decih on Mon Oct 29, 2012 at 05:46:17 PM PDT

    •  Like I tell people. (0+ / 0-)

      Vote party, not people. Other countries do because their electoral system is different, but here we're obsessed with personality.

      I demand the government respect my 18th amendment rights!

      by Decih on Mon Oct 29, 2012 at 05:50:51 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  By the way. (0+ / 0-)

      I worked hard for months on my friend trying to get him to rescind his plan not to vote for not being progressive enough. The only way he was convinced to vote for Obama was that he watched Romney in the third debate and was repulsed by what he saw.

      I demand the government respect my 18th amendment rights!

      by Decih on Mon Oct 29, 2012 at 05:52:56 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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