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Stupid Salon comment system says "link your account". I click sign in, I click on Google, I pick a Google account, it then e-chews it awhile, then it shows me as signed in.

Then the Salon comment box tells me I have to be linked to a social account for it to work.

Life is too short, so I'm putting it here. Here is Stoller's defense of his original piece

My comment:

Is "believe that Obama is a progressive and vote for him", and "believe that Obama is not a progressive and vote against him" a valid dichotomy?

Certainly Obama has not taken the actions required to substantially ameliorate climate change as it occurs. However, his administration has taken substantial steps both in terms of renewable sustainable energy and in terms of development of sustainable transport infrastructure that are of use to a real policy to address climate change, and quite clearly the wing of the corporate party behind Mitt Romney is adamantly opposed to even doing that much.

And your argument does not spell out WHY we should HOPE FOR a repetition of the Bush administration in terms of the policies that will be pursued but believe that UNLIKE the first time we went through it, the progressive opposition to those policies will refrain from alliance with the intra-corporate party opposition and so avoid being coopted.

The pressures will be the same. "Join us and push back the Romney administration, or got it alone and lose!" The scapegoating of "lefty purists" for the election of the Romney administration (as Bush and Nader in Florida, even though a majority of Florida voters in fact voted for Gore) will be the same. I think its better than even odds that the result will be the same.

Meanwhile, if Obama is re-elected, we have four years to make the case against the Obama administration, FREE of the charge that we are just throwing the re-election campaign to "Republican X", because Obama cannot run for re-election.

Also, as a side-note: the Obama campaign in 2008 supported existing corporate trade agreements. Anybody who believed that the "renegotiate" was anything but an empty promise if an admittedly pro-corporate trade agreement administration was doing the negotiating was a co-author of that fiction. Supporters of candidates with progressive positions argued at the time that it was a quite evidently empty promise. Pretending that there was an actual progressive promise being made there in order to pad out the list of broken promises is not terribly persuasive.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Tip Jar (8+ / 0-)

    Support Lesbian Creative Works with Yuri anime and manga from ALC Publishing

    by BruceMcF on Sat Nov 03, 2012 at 08:51:58 PM PDT

  •  Stoller had good times (8+ / 0-)

    as a blogger when Bush was President. He was just a failure under Obama. Personally I think it's as simple as that.

    But I would add to the comment that another 1-2 conservative justices would make any meaningful progressive legislation impossible. We've seen that in the decisions handed down so far.

    •  failure - yeah right....that's why he's on Salon. (0+ / 0-)

      Why do so many people here have to attack liberals who don't march in lock step with them every minute of the day?    Poor Ed Schulz said something, and dkos had a lynch mob.  So far, this place have skewered Krugman, OPOL, Schulz, Bernie Sanders, Greg Palast and several more.     People really need to grow up.

      Notice.  BruceMcF never got personal.  He built a case; he didn't call Matt names or attack him personally.   jeez.  

      If money is speech, then speech must be money. Call your mortgage company and pay your rent now.

      by dkmich on Sun Nov 04, 2012 at 02:45:18 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Well, from where Matt Stoller sits ... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      ... the Justices that Obama has appointed have been conservative justices.

      And actually that's a valid point in terms of a dictionary definition of conservative (eg, support for maintenance of the status quo on abortion rights to privacy AND maintenance of the status quo on excessive corporate rights to "intellectual property" are both "conservative" positions) ...

      ... but then on a dictionary definition, Alito and Thomas are not conservative justices, they are radical reactionaries.

      Support Lesbian Creative Works with Yuri anime and manga from ALC Publishing

      by BruceMcF on Sun Nov 04, 2012 at 06:51:33 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Matt Stoller personally hates (4+ / 0-)

    Obama. He hated him in the primaries and the personal venom sometimes seeps into his criticisms, which are sometimes valid. He also believes Obama is sinister in his intentions and has said things like Obama was secretlly hoping the CFPB was killed, which anyone who followed Dodd-Frank knows that was Obamas red line. So it doesn't surprise me AT ALL to see him essentially make the case for Mitt Romney.

    •  Personalizing the question ... (0+ / 0-)

      ... is no way to advance understanding of it. Matt Stoller has a set of policy positions he would prefer. He claims that Obama has run on many of those positions, and then not pursued them.

      I believe that all along the positions that President Obama has been proposing have been fairly well in line with the policies he has been advancing.

      They certainly are not positions that were claimed for Obama by "progressive bloggers" during the 2008 primary and general election, but I argued at the time that those progressive bloggers were weaving a fantasy version of Obama.

      IMV, any reality based analysis of Obama's actual policy positions in 2007-2008 as well as in office reveals that the mass media storyline of Obama as the leader of the progressive wing of the party is as fictitious as the tea party storyline of Obama as a raving socialist. He's the leader of the same moderate corporatist wing that Clinton helped create in the 80's and 90's.

      Support Lesbian Creative Works with Yuri anime and manga from ALC Publishing

      by BruceMcF on Sun Nov 04, 2012 at 06:57:07 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Matt Who? (6+ / 0-)

    "Mitt Romney looks like the CEO who fires you, then goes to the Country Club and laughs about it with his friends." ~ Thomas Roberts MSNBC

    by second gen on Sat Nov 03, 2012 at 09:19:03 PM PDT

  •  Stoller knows the capital 'T' truth maaaan... (6+ / 0-)

    aaahh ideological fantasyland playtime is fun aint it?

    I'm in the coalition of disparate interests here in the real world, enough of a coalition, brought together by Obama, to be a winning majority and I dont care if he has to get a little dirty or impure to get it either, because I sure as HELL know what the other coalition is about. We had 8 years of it. No thanks!

    Thats real politics as practiced. Its math, its numbers, its how many people our side has vs. how many people the other side has. People like Stoller and his ilk dont matter. They really dont. They arent in the equation. Dont sweat it, the other side has their own useful idiots.

  •  They set up the linkage the way they did so they (6+ / 0-)

    could harvest Google email addresses and then demand you also provide them with access to your facebook account, getting them double the sales potential for your data. It's a total lie the way they have it set up. I used to comment all the time when you had to log into a salon account. I have not commented since they did this underhanded change.

    They claim it has to do with eliminating spam, but clearly it does not, as there is every bit as much spam and trolling as before. It's about selling your data for $$.

    •  The least spam and trolling Salon ever had... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      PhilK, CherryTheTart

      ...was when they went to subscription-only commenting for their late lamented "Table Talk" grouping of message boards.  Once that was instituted, trolling came to a halt because the number of right-wing trolls that would pay money to troll a liberal site could be counted on the knuckles of one finger.  

      Table Talk was a thriving community from which many A-list bloggers came: Atrios, TBogg, MWO, Steve Gilliard, etc.  Now their letters section is a stand-in for TT, and it's a worthless, troll-ridden cesspool, far more trolled than TT was in the days pre-sub-only commenting.  (You can no longer use Greasemoney-based killfiles to keep from viewing the trolls, for one thing.  Even pre-sub, TT had the ENUF or "Twit Filter" into which you drop trolls so you didn't see them comment and so weren't tempted to respond; this helped starve them of attention and often sufficed to make them go away.)

      Visit for Minnesota news as it happens.

      by Phoenix Woman on Sun Nov 04, 2012 at 12:17:59 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Stoller got destroyed by Sam Seder this week (0+ / 0-)

    on the Majority Report (10/31 show). To quote the right-wing he sounded like a petulant child when Seder started taking apart his views. He doesn't think the Supreme Court matter, doesn't see any difference between Obama and Romney, and cannot state a single way that Romney will speed up the revolution he wants more than Obama will.

    I think the voting as a moral exercise argument is moronic in the least, but they didn't really get into that aspect as much as I would have liked.

    Stoller has been O.K. before, but sounded like a clown in this debate.

  •  There is a particular subset of left wing pundits (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Curt Matlock

    Who seem to have homed in on a personal business model built around one question:

    "Why should Republican pundits get all the attention and make all the money throwing bombs at Democrats?"

    I would include Matt Stoller in this crowd. He's gone from someone who decried clear differences between circa 2004 Democrats and Republicans to someone who sees no meaningful distinction between Democrats and post-Tea Party Republicans in 2012.

    Sorry, Matt. I'm just not seeing it the same way. The parties are more different now than they were before...but I can appreciate there's money to be made saying otherwise.

    •  Matt Stoller wants a Democratic party ... (0+ / 0-)

      ... that is a populist, anti-corporatist party.

      So the fact that one wing of the party is a corporatist wing is what he focuses on. And a wing of the Republican party is a corporatist wing. So "in that respect" the two parties are equal.

      The fact that the other wing of the Republican party is a bunch of radical reactionaries and the other wing of the Democratic party is progressive doesn't count into his reckoning, but it is a difference that ought to be noted.

      Luckily the election will be over on Tuesday, and the pointlessness of the "progressive cases" for and against Obama can be dropped. Progressives opposing a majority of the Obama administration policies can go back to opposing the policies, and progressives supporting Obama in order to support key progressive policies or to retain victories won long ago will no longer have to convince themselves of the mass media storyline that Obama is some great progressive champion.

      Support Lesbian Creative Works with Yuri anime and manga from ALC Publishing

      by BruceMcF on Sun Nov 04, 2012 at 07:03:59 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

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