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and software patches?

You mean that can't just "flip" a switch and "steal" and election?

You mean even if we only have  3 point lead in a state we can still win it?

You mean we actually have the ability to fight their voter suppression schemes and we aren't helpless victims going up against the almighty Karl Rove secret cabal.

We should always be diligent and stand up against those seeking to curb voting rights (which they do IN THE OPEN). We should learn the lessons from the past

But it's time to get over the PTSD from 2000 and 2004 and drop the conspiracy theories and the victim posture.


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Comment Preferences

  •  "Conspiracy theories" and "victim posture"? (9+ / 0-)

    Not true.

    The fact that the Republicans lost doesn't eliminate the massive evidence of voter suppression.

    Read Greg Palast.

    •  Voter suppression is one thing... (7+ / 0-)

      ... vote rigging is another.

      I don't deny the efforts that have been made to suppress votes through Voter ID laws, bullying, etc.

      But all the diaries panicking about schemes to steal the votes by rigging the voting machines, or statistically manipulating the vote counts, or other such shenanigans, would seem to be so much noise in the light of election results that came out remarkably close to the polling aggregates.

      And unlike vote rigging, voter suppression may well be masked by the polls, because the likely voter screens might implicitly or explicitly screen out suppressed voters. I don't have any data on that, one way or the other.

      Let us all have the strength to see the humanity in our enemies, and the courage to let them see the humanity in ourselves.

      by Nowhere Man on Wed Nov 07, 2012 at 09:45:05 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I'll go one step further (3+ / 0-)

        They're exactly the same as those on the right who believe Democrats "steal" elections.

        As for the "Ohio patch" -- unless I missed it, I didn't see the Ohio state Dem party out there saying this was a very serious issue? Folks here act as though the state party is sitting there with thumbs up their asses babbling "D'uh!"  

        •  It IS a a serious issue for several reasons (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          1) disruption of voting.  Any uncertified (not fully tested) patch on a voting machine carries the risk of causing dysfunction, which causes the risk of disrupting the election.

          2) Security.  The certification process exists for a reason, to ensure that everything done to the voting machines is done with proper testing and oversight.  When security measures are bypassed, security has been compromised.   People should worry, just as if you came home and discovered that someone had pried open your door and been inside your home.   We're all still wondering what they did to those voting machines, just like you would wonder what the intruder did inside your home while you weren't there.

          3) Accountability. Elections only work effectively if people actually believe that the election is fair and accurate.   The appearance of impropriety is harmful to the public's acceptance of election results.  When election officials bypass procedure and break the law with respect to the management of voting equipment, they raise doubts in the minds of the electorate as to whether those voting machines have been tampered with -- AS WE HAVE SEEN.

          I am sure there are other reasons.  These are just the ones that spring to mind.

    •  You are conflating the two issues (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      erush1345, virginislandsguy

      The diary is asking for a cessation of vote-theft (changing an outcome they don't like after the fact) diaries, not for ignoring the issue of ballot access.

      •  While the issues are distinct, the effect is (0+ / 0-)


        Furthermore, I think there are many credible stories of vote rigging, such as simply throwing ballots away.  They just weren't able to do enough of all of this.

  •  Yeah... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    4democracy, Sandino

    And, you can leave your door unlocked, and your keys and your pourse in your car, too.  

    It's OK.  I'm sure no one will steal it.   If you insist on locking the door and securing your valuables and using an alarm system, you are just a conspiracy theorist, and playing the victim.

    The price of freedom is eternal vigilance.

    Thomas Jefferson
    3rd president of US (1743 - 1826)  

    I guess he was the original conspiracy theorist.
  •  If i can just make a case for targetted CT's (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JMHarlan, Nowhere Man, BrianParker14

    I think that there's something to letting them know we're paying attention.  Would-be election thugs are much more deterred when we point out things like Tagg Romney owning stock in voting machines, and that - yes - we are watching him.

    Full blown CT's are kind of creepy, but a little suspicion and even more watchfulness is nutritious to democracy.

    Howard Dean will always be my president.

    by 4democracy on Wed Nov 07, 2012 at 09:34:07 AM PST

    •  Agree to a point (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      4democracy, Neuroptimalian

      But we don't want to be constantly crying wolf, either. It doesn't help to be vigilant if you're not credible. I hope that those who express skepticism respectfully will be listened to with equal respect, and not dismissed as concern trolls (as I and others have been.)

      Let us all have the strength to see the humanity in our enemies, and the courage to let them see the humanity in ourselves.

      by Nowhere Man on Wed Nov 07, 2012 at 09:49:10 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  You are absoloutely right - "Concern Troll" HRing (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Nowhere Man

        really should be banned, unless we get to have "Witch hunter" HR powers to go along with it.  You know - checks and balances and what-not.

        There's such a thing as a dialogue and healthy differences of opinion in our "big tent".  Behaving otherwise is behaving like..  well.. you know who.

        Howard Dean will always be my president.

        by 4democracy on Wed Nov 07, 2012 at 10:01:57 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  I was gonna write something about this as well (4+ / 0-)

    We have a tendency to over do it big time on theories of vote stealing in terms of the way Republicans count votes. This idea that they would magically change the vote totals we're always a tin-foil hat idea.

    Republicans do try to change the vote count in elections by voter suppression.  It's a very real thing and a very big issue.  Let's focus on fighting that, and not water it down with stories about how they'll change it all on the backend.

    •  As long as there's no auditability... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      ...there will always be doubts.  

      You can cry "conspiracy theorist" all you want, but in a fact based community, if it remains a fact that no one can verify that the votes that went into the machine are the same votes that came out of the machine, no matter who actually wins, people will continue to raise that question, and it will continue to be a VALID question to raise.   I can't believe that we've allowed systems like this to exist.  

      There should be a voter verified paper trail, and routine, election night audits, to confirm vote counts.   It's how the bank does it.  

      Believe it or not, people on DKOS can actually do more than one thing at a time.   Discussions of voter suppression can continue while the integrity of our voting process is also under discussion.

      The question remains -- why is Tagg Romney investing so heavily in voting technology -- the same technology on which the uncertified software patches were applied days before an election?   Why did Diebold promise to "deliver" Ohio for Bush?    We have motive, method and opportunity.   Certainly, there are grounds for investigation.

      The appearance of impropriety remains, and will continue to be discussed until the questions are answered, and incidents giving rise to questions are no longer occurring.

  •  It's also time (9+ / 0-)

    to get rid of the damned things and go to a simple voter marked paper ballot.  Easy to understand, with a clear audit trail . . .

    Fake Left, Drive Right . . . not my idea of a Democrat . . .

    by Deward Hastings on Wed Nov 07, 2012 at 09:34:46 AM PST

  •  well technically can only say dem vote #s large (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    enough in Ohio that canceled out any such thing

    someone on msnbc yesterday said syuh shenanigans can only flip 1-2%  so Dem turn out was large enough to compensate for such

  •  Totally agree (5+ / 0-)

    There is a difference between:

    "This issue is somewhat disconcerting. I've contacted the elections board and OFA, and will keep an eye on it."



    I saw a lot more of the latter on Dkos in the past few days.

    Proud supporter of actually prosecuting rape, even if it requires extradition!

    by zegota on Wed Nov 07, 2012 at 09:36:15 AM PST

  •  why am I seeing this diary twice? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    did you repost so yours wouldn't scroll off when others' did?

    Here's your earlier diary, Nothing about Tagg Romney owned machines and software patches?, posted at 1:56 AM
    You mean they really can't just flip a switch and steal the election?

    You mean they really do play all their dirty tricks out in the open and its up to us to fight against them?

    You mean Karl Rove and his Super Pacs aren't omniscient'

    Let's be diligent, let's demand reform where it is needed, but let's also get over the PTSD from 2000 and 2004 and stop seeing an insurmountable conspiracy around every corner

    I read it, considered commenting but saw that others were saying what I would have said, then considered writing a separate diary addressing your vicious, reprehensible attitude toward people with PTSD. Perhaps I will still do so.

    Delete this.

    "Honesty is the first chapter in the book of wisdom." -- Thomas Jefferson

    by pianogramma on Wed Nov 07, 2012 at 09:43:29 AM PST

  •  Perhaps It Was All The Vigilance (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Rich in PA, Sandino

    Maybe it was extreme vigilance that prevented theft of the election.  I suggest we should not conclude that Republicans could not possibly steal an election.  If we're not watching every move of theirs, they will steal elections.

  •  "Craziness" is how Markos described it I think (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    Not that he is the arbiter of course.  :-). But I agree we should distinguish between known threats like voter suppression (which is real) and election fraud (which is theoretically possible - but usually "craziness").  When the two are blurred, our strength about suppression is blunted.  

    And for Gods sake, can we please stop with the silly demands to "delete this.".  Hysteria becomes no-one.

  •  Only 5 House seats flipped? (0+ / 0-)

    Give me a break! The fascists aren't stupid, just cowards.
    They didn't have the courage or the candidate to steal the Presidential - overwhelming turnout stopped them. Big props to us.
    They would have liked to steal the Senate, but the Tea Party loonies made that pretty much impossible. Again, no one would have believed it after this turnout and with those candidates.
    But House seats? 500+ races, almost all of them gerrymandered - and we're so busy congratulating ourselves for saving our capitulator in chief that people like this diarist will enable everyone who fails to investigate.
    And John Boener still runs the country.

  •  It's imminently likely MILLIONS were suppresed. (0+ / 0-)

    When you consider Obama winning despite tens of millions of Big Money corporate donations lobbed against him...

    Gains in both the House and Senate...

    ...yet winning almost 6 Million FEWER popular votes than 4 years ago, it is imminently likely MILLIONS of votes were suppressed, but it just wasn't enough to swing the election.

    * Bill Clinton made me a Democrat. But George W Bush made me a Liberal.

    by Mugsy on Wed Nov 07, 2012 at 10:47:16 AM PST

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