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How come the "fiscal cliff" budget cuts would damage the economy so catastrophically, but the "grand bargain" budget cuts would magically grow the economy?

Maybe there's a good answer? If there's not a good answer, that indicates that we're being scammed into Grover Norquist's framing, and that we should perhaps stop worrying and learn to love the cliff. There's no real point to agreeing to anything we don't want to save the middle class tax cuts. For political reasons they will be continued/reinstated by a bipartisan majority regardless of the outcome of the "fiscal cliff" negotiations, we all know that.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Tip Jar (7+ / 0-)

    it fitfully blows, half conceals, half discloses

    by Addison on Fri Nov 09, 2012 at 05:08:12 PM PST

  •  Great question. I don't buy the line that it (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Chi, ExStr8, quill

    would greatly hurt the economy.  I think it would hurt the defense contractors and other corporate welfare queens.  And that is why we are being told how bad it is.

    I think the tax increases across the board would hurt the middle class when they are hurting.  But I'm not buying the fiscal cliff is suicide, the grand bargain is great line either.

    Expose the lies. Fight for the truth. Push progressive politics. Save our planet. Health care is a right, not a privilege.

    by lighttheway on Fri Nov 09, 2012 at 05:14:00 PM PST

    •  I added a quick edit as you responded... (0+ / 0-)

      ...the middle class tax cuts will be reinstated/continued regardless of anything else. I feel like that's obvious, since any other course of action would be political malpractice for the party that opposed it (the Republicans).

      it fitfully blows, half conceals, half discloses

      by Addison on Fri Nov 09, 2012 at 05:17:13 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  The 'fiscal cliff' in the context of a recovery (0+ / 0-)

      The so-called fiscal cliff is considered a drag on the economy during recession because it would (A) raise taxes on middle-income Americans and (B) reduce government outlays. But it is not an instant effect. that would be the cumulative effect over months or years. It's more of a fiscal bunnyhill.

      Since the 'grand bargain' is a undefined phrase there's not much to be said about it.

      •  The grand bargain isn't really undefined... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        blueoasis, Quicklund

        ...the general outline is going to be Simpson-Bowles, with some minor variations around the edges.

        Also, too: to me it's common sense that in no universe would the middle class tax cuts actually be allowed to lapse for any appreciable length of time. They will either be continued as part of a grand bargain, or reinstated by both parties in early 2013 as part of a grand "cover my ass" political strategy.

        it fitfully blows, half conceals, half discloses

        by Addison on Fri Nov 09, 2012 at 05:23:44 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Middle class cuts shouldn't extend past recovery (0+ / 0-)

          The tax codes in general need many modifications. The general tone of Reaganomics has to be reversed. That means the upper income people have to once again pick up a greater share. But it also means an end to spending more than we collect. And part of that means retiring that national debt from $16T down by 70% - 80%.  And that will  most probably require sacrifice from a broader base. Half-killing Reaganomics will not do.

  •  Fiscal cliff results in renewed pre-Bush... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    blueoasis, quill

    ...tax rates on the 1%'s money, also might reduce profits on their defense stocks.  A grand bargain will spare Defense, might maintain lower capital gains and dividends taxes, and will take the greatest amount from the Medicaid poor and those who paid into unemployment insurance and Social Security with an expectation ever to see any of that again when they need it.  It's always the money.  It's always about who should get the money, those who need groceries or basic health care or those who have country club dues.  Those who tell us the deficit is our greatest worry are those who are waging a class war.

  •  yes, it's contradictory (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Roger Fox

    which is why the whole "crisis" is especially maddening. "We must stop the austerity by producing more austerity."

    By the way, it's not really the "middle class" portion of the tax cuts that slows the economy down; it's only the bottom 25%.

    The temporary payroll tax cuts and unemployment extensions are much more important, economically.

  •  Lay offs (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Roger Fox

    Does anyone have any information on this...it is being widely circulated on social forums.

    http://www.theblaze.com/...

    •  How many were laid off due to Bush's policies? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      quill, Roger Fox

      Millions. The answer is millions. I don't know what your motive is in linking to Beck's website on my diary, but I know that the answer to your question is easy.

      it fitfully blows, half conceals, half discloses

      by Addison on Fri Nov 09, 2012 at 06:24:26 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Would cost some gazillionaires some dough. (0+ / 0-)

    If not us ... who? If not here ... where? If not now ... when?

    by RUNDOWN on Fri Nov 09, 2012 at 07:18:45 PM PST

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